Understanding Ambivalence

All right,

George,

Let's talk about ambivalence.

I'm not sure what to say.

All right.

First let's define ambivalence because I actually realized that until I became a couples therapist,

I actually thought it meant something different.

See,

I thought I thought ambivalence meant not feeling much about something.

And am I right in thinking that it actually means that you feel equal opposing forces?

Like there's something you really want and something you really don't want and you get stuck.

Yes.

Okay.

That feels pretty accurate to me.

What else are you seeing or reading about?

Do you have another definition?

No,

I think in the past I just thought it meant you didn't like,

Like if someone was like,

You know,

Do you like hamburgers?

And I'm like,

I'm ambivalent on hamburgers.

I just don't really care.

So I had the wrong definition of it.

Right.

And again,

For me,

It would be like,

I really love hamburgers,

But I don't want to eat unhealthy.

I'm stuck between those two points.

And so often in a couples or partners that we're seeing,

It's that I want to be close,

But it's not safe to be close.

So I need distance.

Right.

So that's that that's opposing forces that you're being pulled between.

So let's let's talk about this because I want to talk about the hardest of the hard cases.

Okay.

Okay.

And I know you've seen them.

Right.

Just a few.

Just a few.

So I want to talk about the cases where a partner is ambivalent because they've found a level of relief in thinking about the idea of exiting the relationship.

So that has become kind of a relieving,

Soothing thought of like,

I could leave and then this would be all over.

And then then their ambivalence to me becomes that they get on the fence about any kind of effort or engagement because that relief place feels compelling,

But not compelling enough that they leave.

And then they hold back from like any kind of engagement or effort because their systems saying,

I don't know about this.

And oftentimes to try raises the hopes of that partner.

And I don't really want that to happen because that sets them up for guilt.

So they can't really try,

You know,

But what's the opposite?

It's distressing to leave because that's going to bring up,

You know,

Change and guilt.

And,

You know,

So I think the key.

Well,

Let me backtrack a second.

I think what makes ambivalence so hard for us as therapists is we're in the business of change.

That's our job description,

Right?

These are the most difficult clients because it's like we want to just say,

Right,

You know,

We're trying to help you keep it together,

Make it work.

But,

You know,

If that's not right,

You can't meet each other's needs.

Then,

You know,

You can let each other go and find that elsewhere,

Either which directions change.

But to not change,

To stay in this place,

We get pulled into it.

We start to feel stuck and helpless and we're not doing a good enough job.

So it's that,

You know,

That's a classic sign of a cycle and a therapist being pulled into a cycle when you start to feel as stuck as your clients.

Oh,

Dear.

I'm in a lot of cycles.

We all get pulled into it.

Can you recognize that,

Right,

That it's happening?

Because for me,

I'm trusting the process.

If I'm starting to feel stuck,

That's telling me that I haven't organized the function of that ambiguity.

I haven't really understood how it's working.

I mean,

I think so often we see it as something dead and we don't understand.

I guess what I'm saying with a lot of couples that I work with in this place,

It's actually a pretty brilliant strategy of trying to cope with the pain.

Because if I go in either direction,

I feel pain and loss and guilt and shame.

But if I stay in this middle spot,

It's kind of like a drug or anything else.

It's just a good way of coping with pain if it doesn't feel like you have more effective ways.

Wow.

I just want to stay with that a minute,

George,

Because that's so amazing how you're phrasing that.

We can see it as a sort of brilliant strategy because either direction,

They have to feel a bunch of bad stuff.

That's right.

Guilt and loss and all this bad stuff so that there's something really numbing in a good way about staying in that middle place.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's a short term strategy that people just get stuck in.

A short term strategy that people get stuck in.

So even as you're saying that,

I can start to imagine how we could start bringing this more vividly in with clients if we're really starting to name this block of ambivalence and really starting to honor the function of it.

But explicitly.

Explicitly.

It changes the game.

I mean,

The word I would want to attach is to actually not know which direction you want to go,

Actually feel safe.

It's actually what makes you feel hopeful.

That's a very different reframe on how we're seeing it.

It allows my body as a therapist to get more curious,

To stay longer in that place.

I think when you really connect with people and honor their protection and where they're living,

That's the best platform to then look at doing it a little bit differently.

And I think most of us just come out of the gate already trying to push them to see it differently,

To make a choice,

When we really haven't helped them make sense of why they're so stuck in this place.

Yeah.

Okay.

No,

I'm totally with you.

And I think that makes sense.

So if you're starting,

Let's frame this out into two different categories.

Let's frame this out as the couple you're beginning to work with.

And then I'm going to ask you some questions about a couple that's been stuck here for a very long time.

Okay.

Well,

Before we go into those,

And I think that's a great way of breaking it down.

I'm just,

I haven't thought a lot about this myself.

So it's a great question.

I'm glad that you're starting a conversation because this is how we grow models and how we get more engaged and have more fun.

I'm thinking to myself,

There tends to be different types of ways people stay in this imbalance.

Most of the time,

I feel it's almost like a low energy,

Almost like a burnt out pursuer or heavily defended withdrawer who's been in so long.

They're just like,

You know what,

I don't want to do the work.

I'm not sure I really want this,

But I'm not sure I really want to get out of this.

And they're not giving you a lot to work with.

Yeah.

Low energy is exactly what it feels.

So that's,

I think that's the most common type of person in this place.

But I do think you will get the higher energy kind of ambivalence that might look a little bit more like it's disorganized.

Right.

That's saying,

I really want you to talk,

But stop talking to me.

That kind of like whenever they want one,

It also is threatening.

So they pull in the other direction.

So I'm trying to figure out,

Like,

What's the energy this ambivalence is showing up in?

Because that's really going to influence how I make sense of it and how I'm going to match it or how I'm going to come alongside of it.

I like that.

I like that you're talking about the energy range with that,

Because I think that you're exactly right.

Like the higher energy where you're really seeing their system is torn.

And I almost think of this more with affairs or more with like where there's been a trust rupture where they really the trauma of that has thrown them into a traumatic disorganization.

Where you're seeing these polarized views of I want you to comfort me.

You're the bad guy.

You're the one who hurt me.

You know,

Kind of.

Let's use one of those examples,

Because I think that makes it a lot easier to make it real and to honor why people are in this place.

It's like I want my marriage to work,

But you broke your vows and you betrayed me.

You hurt me so much.

It's hard for me to really trust you.

Right.

But I also,

If you don't make amends,

If I don't forgive you,

I can't make this work.

So it's emotionally kind of torn.

And I love that word torn because that so captures this place.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What we're adding to it is also the torn.

There's safety in not knowing what to do.

There's hope in saying,

You know what?

Maybe down the road,

Something will change and this decision will become easier.

Because in this moment to make a choice in either direction is such high stakes.

Right.

If I say this is over,

I got to face the loss of that and the pain of that.

Or if I say,

You know what?

I want to forgive you and I have to head towards you.

I have to face the pain and the fear and the threat of that.

That stark place is actually quite wise.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I love thinking of it how you're saying that there might be this hope.

Like,

If we just wait for something to make it different,

Maybe time or something will happen.

Because if I have to make the decision right now,

That is so agonizing.

There is so much awful fear and hurt and sadness I'm going to have to feel in that.

Exactly.

Yeah.

What I'm working with ambivalence,

I'm being very intentional to organize the function of that.

To make people feel not crazy or weak or pathetic because they can't just make a choice.

They have really good reasons to be stuck and torn.

I think when people are feeling that way,

Not judged and they're feeling seen and they're feeling a little bit clearer.

Now it's much easier to get them to lean into both directions,

Which is what we have to do.

To face this pain they want to avoid.

What would it be like to end this relationship?

Their body doesn't really want to face that.

What would it be like to have to try to trust again?

And that's so risky.

Because then if you try to trust and it happens again,

Where does that leave you?

Yeah.

That's a great image of an affair.

I think that probably tends to be the most common where we see this ambiguity,

Ambivalence really start to show itself.

But you know it's amazing because as I'm hearing you,

I had already been able to think of affair as trauma.

I had already been able to make sense of the disorganized attachment.

Come close,

Go away.

I want to trust you,

I don't.

But I hadn't until this conversation thought about it as a heightened ambivalent state where to make a choice in either direction is confronting a lot of terrible feelings.

Yes.

I guess in a funny way I hadn't thought about it as a choice.

And so this is kind of helping me think about that.

Again,

Great reframe.

If you were somebody in that spot,

Wouldn't you want to hear something like that?

Instead of hearing that you're pretty weak and pathetic because you can't make a choice.

Here actually you are making a choice.

Right.

Both options seem so horrific.

The choice that you're making is to buy yourself more time.

Right.

And you're really hoping something's going to happen.

Maybe your partner is going to show you something different or maybe something will shift inside of you.

Maybe God will tell you something.

But somehow it's like you're on a seesaw.

You're balanced perfectly.

And the lean in one direction starts to become so distressing.

Yeah,

I like that.

You're balanced perfectly.

It's numb,

Right?

There's a certain amount that you're not feeling,

But it's balanced perfectly to make you not have to feel horrible on either end.

And if it wasn't bad enough that we're stuck in these two equally opposing forces,

I think the inner shame that starts getting from the person.

The world does not like indecision.

It does not like people in this place.

Right.

And so the judgment that comes to this person and how bad they feel about themselves.

No wonder why they can't make a decision once we throw that on top of them.

Right.

No,

That's such a good point.

Yeah,

Just that turmoil of what's wrong with me for not being able to decide here.

Yeah.

Which is pretty universal.

So to have a therapist say,

You know what?

There's nothing wrong with you.

This is quite wise what you're trying to do and buy in time and making sure you don't face some of these losses.

I guess the curiosity for me is,

Who sees that?

Who sees this place of distress inside of you?

Because it's so easy to see the partner at the other end who's not being given a chance to really do the work and how distressing that is.

Who sees how distressing it is to be stuck in this spot?

Right.

No,

I mean,

Yeah.

I'm imagining how I could validate clients with that and how good that would feel.

To feel like someone is really seeing the anguish of also being stuck because it means feeling these horrible things in either direction.

And it shows how strong this place is.

That they're willing to disappoint their partner.

They're willing to disappoint the therapist.

And they're willing to disappoint themselves.

Yeah.

They're willing to face all of that.

Yeah.

Which shows you emotionally how really challenging this place is.

So again,

If we can be more patient with it and honor it more and stay with it longer.

Yeah.

I mean,

Okay.

So I think that,

I think we're talking around this really well.

And I think talking about the heightened energy one is helpful.

But I want to talk about low energy where there's been a lot of time spent in that place.

Because I think you're so right that the therapist wants a decision because we want change in some direction.

And I'm totally on board with the idea of being patient and explicit and validating.

But we all have those clients where it's a year in.

And that person is really not moving.

Their system cannot help them make a decision.

And I'm starting to pull my hair out in clumps thinking,

Like,

What are we going to do here?

And so if someone is really stuck in the low energy place where,

Because I think of the affair or,

Like,

The high energy ambivalence as this anguish of can I trust this person again?

Will this person hurt me again?

You know,

That fear is very alive.

Right.

But with the low energy,

It feels like the fear and the urgency isn't there at all.

Like they've turned into little mushrooms and they could just live there in the garden forever.

Right.

They're never going to really engage,

But they're never going to leave.

Yes.

So that's why the energy is really important to try to identify.

And even low energy sometimes shows high.

I mean,

We have to be fluid to move as the energy moves.

But just for simplicity,

If we're leaning in one direction or the other.

You know,

Somebody with low energy ambivalence.

I mean,

What we got to do is so similar to what we're doing with withdrawers.

We're trying to get them to confront something that they have really good reasons to avoid.

So what I'm trying to do in session,

Instead of focusing on this global thing and making a decision,

I'm trying to help them work with in this session,

Those moves that they're showing me.

Can I help them start to put words to that?

Are they compartmentalizing to turn down emotion?

Are they using humor?

Are they using intellect?

Are they using like deflection?

Are they using minimization?

All of these moves that withdrawers tend to do to turn down emotion.

That's like a live block emerging in the session.

So if I have this low energy person saying,

You know what,

I don't even want to talk about this.

There's my block.

I'm going to lean right in.

So even right now,

As your partner says,

You know,

We haven't had a conversation about sex in three months.

You immediately say,

I don't want to talk about it.

Because not talking about it would feel like what?

Like they're not talking about it.

It's their attempt to feel safer,

To gain some distance,

To not have these feelings come up.

It's not going to lead to anything productive.

It's just going to lead to a fight.

Why would we want to do that?

Help them start understanding the good reasons they're trying to turn down emotion.

So again,

We're just trying to connect to the function of that.

And then we can try to stretch it and see,

You know,

And where does that leave you?

Because whenever we got avoidance,

I mean,

What this model is about is getting people to try to get clearer about their inner world.

It is about confronting instead of avoiding.

But we're just doing it in a very delicate,

Kind of respectful,

Attuned type of way.

So I guess what I'm saying in a lot of words is these people that have spent years in this place,

They still don't know themselves emotionally.

Because they're so good at turning down those signals.

They don't understand.

And most therapists want to get them to dive in a deep end and really kind of face these fears.

Where I want them to face it in little kind of doses to increase their capacity.

Like this is like that experience in scale.

You want them to get more in touch with their kind of emotional world.

And more importantly,

Have success when they're doing it.

So if I can get this low energy person to feel like,

Well,

You have good reasons why you're doing what you're doing.

Right,

Right.

What do you think that would be like to hear if you were that person?

And I said,

You know,

So that makes so much sense.

So this is what I hear you doing.

When you say,

I don't want to talk,

It's not saying you don't care about these issues or they're not important.

What you're saying is you don't think it's going to be productive.

And actually that's going to make you feel worse.

So why would you waste time and energy on something that's only going to lead to something worse?

Yeah.

That's already giving me a lot more to work with.

Right.

To start telling a partner,

It's not that I don't care.

Because that's how the partner's hearing it.

It's more about how you're trying to manage your own emotions and trying to avoid your own pain.

Yeah.

I think,

Yeah,

I think that I really like the idea of really validating their avoidance as a function.

And validating that there's something that makes sense of why they don't want to feel certain things or why they don't want to go into it.

I want to bring in a different angle and kind of get your thoughts on it from what I've been seeing.

Because I do think that nine times out of ten,

The reason that people pull back is they're afraid of how the other partner feels.

Right?

The other partner is going to,

The other partner doesn't care.

Or the other partner sees that I'm not enough.

Or the other partner,

You know,

Whatever it is.

But I am seeing very rarely that when the cycle gets flared up,

Someone gets scared of how they feel.

So where typically I see someone saying I'm scared that they don't care about me enough.

That I'm not a priority or I'm not enough for them or I'm not seen as worthy or whatever.

I do see sometimes someone gets scared like something will happen and they get scared like I must not feel enough for this person.

Right.

And then that leads to this ambivalent state because in the cycle,

Their fear isn't that their partner doesn't care about them.

Their fear is that they don't care about their partner enough.

And that can be very tricky.

But if we can see it as part of a cycle,

It's just a fear.

Right?

That the trigger happens and that they get scared.

And then they pull back because,

Of course,

Like the last thing on earth they're going to do is go to their partner and say I'm afraid that I don't feel enough for you.

But the reason that I see it as a fear versus the reality is because they still stay in it.

Yep.

And they keep going around it.

Tell me what your thoughts are with that.

I think the way you organize it is really good.

And it's just a block.

It's just something that's developed for good reasons.

I know my partner loves me and my partner is a good person and I don't want to hurt them.

Right.

But I'm not feeling the same way.

That's a tough spot to be in.

That our job,

We're responsible as therapists for the process,

Not the outcome.

But I'm trying to help both of my clients become clear about their truth.

We're still trying to unpack emotions,

Assemble those elements into a more coherent story.

Can you help that person put words to their truth,

Which is,

You know,

I don't want to hurt my partner.

But it's scary that I'm not sure how I feel.

And I don't feel safe expressing that because that's going to hurt my partner.

Which means where does this person go with those fears?

Right.

And if they can't process these fears,

They're going to continue to determine what they're doing in the relationship.

They're just not really clear about it.

So I love what you're saying.

It's like somebody needs to lean into those fears and help this person understand the good reasons.

What would it be like to stay in a relationship where you're not 100% truthful to yourself?

What's the fear saying could happen if you don't feel the same passion?

Are you selling out?

Are you compromising?

Will you become smaller?

Will you start to kind of resent that?

Like,

Let's really try to flesh that place out to help get people get a lot clearer about the good reasons they're stuck in this place.

It's still that tornness.

You know,

That could even be worse because I don't want to hurt my partner.

So,

You know,

I can't show them these fears.

But the flip side of that is if I do the work.

Right.

That doesn't feel like I'm being truthful to myself.

I feel like,

You know,

It's almost like a partner when they're having sex just out of obligation and duty.

There's a cost to that.

You have to feel like you're losing your soul.

You're just not,

You know,

You're just an object.

And yet you can't talk about that either.

Right.

Yeah.

And what makes it even more complicated is if your strategy in survival is to not express emotions,

Then you're torn with huge emotions and you have no capacity to even talk about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now I'm getting depressed.

That means we're immersing ourselves in their world.

That's a good sign.

Well,

I know.

I think that as you're describing it,

I'm like,

Whoa,

They do.

They feel so alone.

They feel so alone.

Like,

No wonder they kind of turn into little snowmen and snowwomen because,

You know,

Sort of like freeze.

Like,

This is just so agonizing.

It's a great word,

Agonizing.

Yeah.

And so I do,

I like,

As I'm hearing you,

I like hearing that we're leaning into these fears.

We're making it more explicit.

And I think that it's kind of working through our own squeamishness around how hard it is to make certain things explicit because like them,

We're afraid of how their partners will hear it.

Right.

We are a process consultant.

The process,

If a person's stuck,

The process is staying.

That's where they need our help.

I think you're 100% right.

I think because most of us,

I know I'm losing my balance when I'm trying to push for an outcome.

I'm no longer helping them trying to get clear about what's going on.

I'm invested in where I want them to be.

I'm not meeting them where they're at.

I'm wanting them to be where I want them to be.

So,

You know,

For therapists watching this,

This happens to all of us.

We're just a little misattuned.

We're just a little out in front.

They come from a great place.

We want to create change.

We want to help people kind of get more out of their lives.

Right.

But if we get out in front and our clients don't come with us,

That's just a good sign that says let me go back.

They need me to spend more time in this place.

I kind of I didn't spend enough time there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like that.

I think that's that's a nice kind of digestible way to think,

Oh,

I'm just a little too far in front.

I can just move back.

Not because I was being a monster.

Just I was wanting good things for them.

But let's let's move back to where they are.

Right.

Yeah.

And allowing ourselves to come up with those examples in our lives where we felt similarly torn.

Right.

Just how human that is.

And to not make a decision is a decision.

Right.

Right.

Beautiful.

What a beautiful way of describing that.

Yeah.

A decision.

Yeah.

The non decision is a decision for a good reason.

Yes.

Yeah.

And if you can see the hope in the non decision that takes at least alleviates all the shame and feeling like you're a bum and weak and pathetic because you can't make a decision.

Right.

It actually empowers people to make more of a decision when you give them permission not to make a decision.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

I think that goes back to what I've heard you say before,

Which is if you hand them the defense.

Yeah.

They drop it.

Or we hope they drop it.

That was pretty wise.

I said that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah.

You amaze yourself,

George.

Sometimes it's people say,

Yeah,

You said that.

Oh,

My God.

That's interesting.

Well,

I think you've given us really helpful things.

Before we end our little segment for everybody,

I want to put some validation out there for all the therapists watching this.

We're going to go into a session tomorrow.

And they've had the same session with this couple for a year.

We feel you.

And it takes a lot of energy as the therapist.

It takes a lot of grounding.

And you're doing hard work out there.

Very hard work.

And it's a gift that you're giving people just the space to get clear on who they are.

And sometimes those places are dark.

And sometimes they're helpless.

And we have to have the patience to just tolerate that.

Because that is still the greatest gift we can give,

Which is our presence.

So people are not alone in those places.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we're going to get we're going to start selling some T-shirts for you,

George.

Oh,

Yeah?

Yeah.

That say we don't want to leave you alone in these spaces.

Because that's the thing that I think that I keep hearing from you and I keep trying to cement into my own head,

That we are trying to be with them.

We don't want them to be alone in these places.

That's right.

And we have to fight through all the stuff that their partner fights through.

Because they have such good strategies that make it hard to be with them sometimes.

So,

You know,

That's the therapist work.

How do we get in there with them when our systems pull back,

Too,

Sometimes?

And we also need videos like this or teaching that says how do we practically do that?

Because this is hard to do.

To want to lean into places where we feel helpless,

Too.

But the option is actually worse.

Because if the option is just to push people out of it,

Then we're leaving them alone in places where they're really feeling already too pathetic and kind of helpless.

So,

You know,

It's just it's a great conversation that you're starting here today.

And if I've learned anything from all my years of work with couples,

It's that people really have good reasons for how they protect themselves.

Yeah.

And just if I could just if I do nothing else but meet them there,

That usually already is the start towards doing it differently.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Thanks for your time,

George.

You got it,

Wesley.

Good seeing you.

You,

Too.