Fall Asleep With A Gentle Conversation

A gentle conversation I had with spiritual guides Nuño Conde and Michael Scalet—on presence, mindfulness, relationships, and letting go.
Allow the words to wash over you as you relax, unwind, and drift naturally into sleep.
image: Joshua Earle

Transcript

Yeah, I can't do it. Let's try to be short. Well, I'm Nuno. I live in Spain. I'm a Spaniard. Aum. I. . . I have been meditating for a long time with different teachers and different traditions. I'm very lucky because I have made very good teachers and work with them and I have been working for almost five years or more than five years at this time with Michael Taft. I mean one of his long, Grand curses. Um. . . I love the guy and I really like him as a teacher and we have a good group, Like a big shangha. And from the last two years I begin to guide meditations for friends Who insists? They can't have to insist like three times. Uh-oh. And it's been growing, Like naturally. And it's a thing that I always had trouble with it. I always had in my life. Travel with authority and being like occupying like kind of positions of potency or authority or something like that, Like the difference in status that happens when you say something to someone and it's curious because I naturally from I don't know, I think it's very natural that when I have a two year baby and. . . And we are like as. . . Sharing what we want to do all the time and how to do it. He tells me what he wants to do and explain me how to do it in his baby talk and I all the time like telling him things and it happened with my friends like being in there. In the woods, Hiking, Like yeah, I know this mount. You have to go this way and the view is amazing on the top. Let's go this way. Another guy would say no no let's go this way well that way is a bit bumpy but we can try it uh and it's cool like i'm And now. . . Like holding the space for a couple of groups here in Madrid. So I think that works as a presentation to don't ramble to the infinite that I can't. I like listening to your voice. It's actually quite pleasant. So yeah. Thank you. Nothing michael yeah i uh I guess I'll start that I too have been meditating for many years, More years than I will admit. And there was a big shift during the pandemic, Which afforded me a lot more time to meditate and to meditate in more depth. And as I began to do that and reach deeper states of Samadhi, I notice contractions in my body that I never recognized before. And they were very powerful. And I was in an online group with a lot of long-time meditators, And it seemed like I wasn't the only one that was having this kind of experience. There was a lot of discomfort in the people that had been meditating for a long time. And I began to realize with some other friends that there were psychological things that were arising. That no one knew how to deal with from the traditional meditation techniques and traditional Eastern philosophies. So we started to explore that and we realized that Aletheia was a beautiful framework to address exactly that. What is it that's arising and how can we learn to work with it in a way that will allow it to unfold, To actually resolve itself? So there was and found Steve Marsh's integration of multiple different psycho-spiritual techniques to be magnificent. I still haven't found anything that quite integrates it as elegantly as Steve does. But I do incorporate other things to my methodology as they arise and I find them useful. And things are evolving so quickly now, Who knows where that will end up. But right now I really enjoy working with people with this methodology, And I mostly work with people who have pretty profound spiritual practices, Or people that are, Let's say, Sensitive in that way, For lack of a better way to put it. That's about it. Yeah, So thank you both for that kind of formal beginning. And I just want to say that our relations, So Michael, You are my coach and I'm super grateful to work with you. And, Um, I think it's just beginning because as you have, Of course, Seen, I have pretty intense defensive layers that I need to be careful with and kind of these hurts parts. Um, And that's okay. And I'm really happy to work with you. And why I'm happy to work with you is I really feel safe with you. And, Um, Yeah. Are for me really embodying compassion. Just kind of real, Real compassion without any fluff around it, But just actual compassion. So I really love that. And when I invited you, Hey, Michael, Let's do a podcast. And then you said, Yes. Okay. But you got, You got to invite Nuno. And I was like, But, But it was Nuno. And you said, Well, Actually, You know him, But my memory, We just talked about it is also not the greatest. Uh, But we actually did one of the classes together, Right? Tantra one or something, Or maybe Fast Sky Mind, One of the Fast Sky Minds. I don't even remember. Do you remember Nuno? It was Tantra too, For sure, Because that was the time our babies were born. Both of them, I think. Yeah, Yeah. So yeah, My memory shift a lot during that time. It was a before and after and you are reliving again. I guess it's different. Yeah, Yeah your second one It's pretty intense. Yeah. And, Uh, Just want to add one thing is that you guys are friends as I, As I kind of understand. And I know, Michael, You have a deep respect for the depth and maybe kind of the, Is it, It's aptitude the right word for practice? Not sure if I'm reaching further than my language actually extends, But yeah, Just want to kind of set the scene of, Okay, Here we are and this is who we are and this, These are our relationships. And. As I get it from both of you, We're actually, We don't have an agenda kind of as per the Aletheia way. We just come here and we enter. So I might then ask, Uh, What seems to be interesting right now? Uh, Whoever wants to go from there, I guess that's my little pitch and see how it lands. What seems to be interesting right now? What's interesting for me right now is I feel like the field of the group is starting to settle into a nice place. I wanted to name how much. Nunu and I, How much time we spend talking about. Creating the right environment for unfolding. And as we have our discussions, It's wild because we'll go off on tangents around a certain topic and they always circle back. To these basic fundamental principles. Exactly. And it's, I find that remarkably fascinating. We use many words to say the same thing. Can you say a little bit more about it, Michael, What you mean by kind of setting the right or inviting the right circumstances or something like that? Sure, It all boils down to. . . Embracing whatever arises. And having no agenda around an outcome. No matter how diverse the topic is that we start discussing. It will always go back to, This can be easily resolved. By holding it in that way. And Nuno doesn't like that word and I can understand that. It sounds like an agenda, Right? Is that why, Nuno? Yeah, Also that I like the way that Bruce Tift, A Buddhist teacher and a long time psychologist, That do therapy with couples. Yeah he has a book that is called Already Free where a good book about psychology meets buddhist practice and he used this term many times that like the the edge of the practice there is to resolve any fantasy of resolution. When you are. Facing the agenda or the contraction or whatever. Or whatever it is. And it's funny because it shocked me the first time I read it. I started to coming into practice with it. And since I shared with Michael this we have been encounter. I have been encountered this everywhere. There's a. . . I don't know. Sometimes some Um, Well, Sorry because my english can like completely missed, Uh in a moment Arrgh. Anytime. Right now I remember in these words from Yamato Musashi, The book of the five rings, That is this samurai, Very famous, There's a lot of Japanese movies and animes and a lot of things about him. At the end of his life, After dueling with swords, Everyone and winning everyone, He retired and lived as a saint monk in a well in the mountains or something like that and write this book. And he talks a lot about that once you know the way, And it seems very Daoist, Like the Dao, You find it everywhere. Undo become it and yeah for me it's kind of like that like it's like oh every time i'm like learning something deep or how to refine my capacity of Um. . . Dropping in dropping open experience or Be more present. It all revolves around that principle. Even like Three months ago I started this. Cool meditation space with friends where I'm guiding meditations but we are also like co-creating and sometimes other guys guide the meditation. Other girls. I asked to my girlfriend that she is a theater actress and writer and she does a lot of classes. She has been for years. A facilitating space for professionals, People who know a lot of their craft. And I asked her, I don't have any idea how to do this. And I'm going to guide meditations for people who are very experienced with other meditations and are more experienced than me and I don't know how to do it. Like, What do you do? What do you recommend me? And he said to me, Well, Actually, It's pretty easy, You know. You already know a lot of shit about meditation and you can relate and so on, So you know your craft. The only thing you have to do is set the space like put the cushions, The flowers and get out of the way. And remain out of the way for the whole duration of the meeting. Everything will naturally move and you're there, You're facilitating. And it was cool because actually. . . Yeah. It works. When I talk about this with her, I tell her that. Not like in different situations, Not only guiding bees on that, Like being with friends, Having a good time. And then we start to talk about politics and the end of the world. Um. . . It's the same movement and it improves the conversation. And it's not that I go silent or became stupid, But it's like. . . Their experience years present? And I am present also, But not as a. . . How to say, Not as a vector, I'm there with them. I'm curious, Nuno, Would you say that getting out of the way would be similar to not needing a certain alcohol? Yeah, Definitely. And that's the practice actually, Like every time there's a contraction to say it very clearly. Brought. The practice is to. . . Yeah, Don't try to resolve it. And make a space for that. And it's what it needs most of the time. Well, I don't know what it means really. It's a discovery. I'm always curious why, Why it's so challenging for most of us humans to get out of our own way, To not have an agenda around an outcome. Any ideas on that? Well, I just remember my life and it has been all about trying to get things, Do things, Be things. The last years has been like quite a revolving ground about it. What do you find most useful? To allow yourself to get out of the way. Yeah. That's a good question, Because. . . Is not always the same. Like, Even that cannot have an agenda for me, I take. Eats. The experience unfolds differently. Indifferent. Relationship. We can talk about the context, Like the place, What's happening in the world and the persons you are around. That is the same when I am alone. Um. . . I don't know. There is this freshness. Being very interested in in what is happening. And allowing it and it's Yeah, Right now it's new also. But it's cool, You know. There was a big shift for me in experience when I work as a designer with a German company. I have German bosses. They are intense. They take things very straightforward. Directly. And in meetings, When we are in meetings, I have worked as a designer for a lot of time and in advertising companies and so on. And I have some works in the United Nations that were super stressful. They were horrible, Stressful. And I remember preparing the meetings. Like literally working until 4 a. M. In the morning because I have a meeting and the slides will have to be perfect and I'm meeting with the boss at 9 a. M. No sleep almost, Like I go there. Yeah, Just embodied a panic attack all the time, As many designers I know. Yeah, That's a fact. Um Hmm. Slowly with meditation and I start to see this like Yeah for four years ago. That the panic or the contraction or the whatever it is in the middle happening stays there, It is expressing. And I'm struggling with this. It's like, Oh no, I don't want to sound nervous or whatever. Or she asked me about this and I don't know what is about that or I don't have the back of work to talk about that point. And anyway, What happened is that. . . Without doing anything I. . . Nailed it. Just well I would say the word surrender I think I just surrender. Having to Uh, Yeah like like ace the point or do a good performance. So in a cool radiation, To end the example, Four years ago it started, Like my body started to break, I get it, I feel the nervousness completely, My body shocks. And I sound nervous and so on. Bad. I have stopped fighting them. Dank site. In the middle of a arm. Of a meeting with my bosses. Um. . . And the moment I stop fighting the anxiety, I feel it. And well, I'm lucky there's a build capacity with meditation and practice below. Or I guess that is natural for some other people. That once you stop fighting what's happening then there is a lot of room for improvement. Relationship, Like actual, Like real interaction, Like, Then it's like more like talking with my boss, Like we were in a pub and there is no agenda. So there is anxiety but there's also relaxation and I can talk from there or the talk happens automatically like you are talking spontaneously with with someone to enjoy in a pub about movies or, I don't know, In nature. And lately it's very cool because I'm in a meeting with my bosses and I have my points, I have my things prepared. And once I go there, I know that It doesn't matter what I write in the paper. What is going to come is going to come from the interaction. And if they ask me something like, Nuno, Let's talk about. . . This important work that we want to show. And if I don't have that prepared, That's for my. . . Usual self or the personality that I have been experiencing all my life will be like a system shock. Like, Oh no, My God, They are going to find out that I don't have that work. I'm going to be completely exposed. What happens is that I feel that and. . . And then I relate. . . And it's difficult to say I because it's more that is spontaneous relating with them. And what happens is that. Uh. . . Without saying it very alien, Because in meditation language, Usually they can be saying like, Yeah, I hear the words come out of my mouth and they are performed. But yeah, It's like I embody naturally all the conversation and actually. . . I. . . I explained that to what I'm saying. Is actually very skillful. That you can read it in a lot of books. I don't know what my nuts meant. If you don't have nothing to show from this thing, The good leadership movement is to acknowledge that. And with that ownership propose a different route or just actually I don't have this work or. . . I don't have that or whatever. But we can see this sort of thing that maybe will be interesting. That would have been impossible. I don't know, Like 10 years ago for me. And this allows you to really welcome whatever's arising in your experience. Is it iris? Yeah, Like there is no other way. If I don't welcome what is arising in my experience, And my experiences with my baby, With my wife. Very dramatically. The answer from. My baby and my wife or the world It's intense. I'm very quick. It's like, No, No, No, No. She and my wife, She has told me many times that when I like put an agenda there or I'm not accepting what is happening. He's asking me to stop doing that. Even without talking. You mentioned, You mentioned curiosity before, And, Uh, It seems like one of the, The beautiful ways to relate to what's arising without an agenda is to be really curious around it. Um. . . Yeah, I think that that's the direction and that's a very easy way to relate because once I found that curiousness and curiosity has a an ingrained hacking mechanism of presence that once you're curious about something and you start to get into it, You forgot about the world, You forgot about yourself. Forget about what you're doing, Your attendance. Time flows. Suddenly it's like, Oh no, No, I have to go. Are you about to say something Hans? No, I just only mentioned that because Nuno said my wife tells me without words. So there's this thing where, You know, I'm sure you know, Michael, That your partner can give a certain look and that's enough. You know, It's, It's telepathy basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, My wife sometimes told me like, You're not here. I was like, Yeah, I was thinking about it. And when that happens in a conversation that is important on a relationship, That's painful. And I experienced it as pain when I was young. In relationship ban. And suddenly there is. . . A goal and attend a distraction. It feels violent sometimes. It sounds pretty extreme to talk in this way because it's something very natural at the same time. It's funny how our partners know when we're not there. And And I care. That can create an interesting dynamic, Can get very uncomfortable for everyone there. And I find it's very useful to turn to curiosity, But not always easy. Like the relations with our partners are by far, Along with our mothers perhaps, The hardest relationships we have and most challenging. But to begin to habituate the action of curiosity rather than reacting in another way to what's unfolding can be really, Really powerful. Yeah, And it's curiosity with our agenda. Yeah, It's like. . . Saying in a way that Yashanti, A teacher that I like a lot, Says that You can measure your progress and your path of unfolding and so on by seeing how you are behaving with your close ones. Your partner, Your parents and this like I haven't had a strong discussion in my mother's forum. Almost two years. It's quite amazing for me. It's like shocking. And I see that the last time she was like, I don't know, Like I was doing, That's curious also that. I have been doing two day intense practice for two days and then my mother was in the house helping us with the baby. We were alone. And then she become interested about meditation things. That she started talking about her things. And in a nutshell, She's quite a character. She started practicing Buddhism when I was younger, And she practiced with bull teachers like Nam Gai in Urugu. And then she did a lot of pipas and a lot of other things and now her path is Rudolf Steiner Anthroposophy. With a lot of Christian mysticism. Well, For me it's difficult to talk about spirituality and meditation. It was cool because she found me very open and then like naturally Gay. Coming in there. And start talking me about her understanding of non-duality. She was talking about the absolute, Like this, Like that. I was there like wanting to say, Yeah, But that's kind of too, Like, It's better to drop the agenda there. And I noticed like, Well, I have an agenda. I was like. And it was good because it's like, Okay, The only way to resolve this is, Ah, No, Not resolve it. Just let it happen. I don't know how to describe it, But she was able to express until the point that she has expressed the full. . . Bottle of water to say in a sense, And then she was satisfied. And at that point, It was pretty hard for me to say, Yeah, I'm doing a lot of non-dual things. And when you drop the agenda, It's more open. You know, It's like your idea of experience or the sublime or the absolute denies. Bigger or less constrained than what you were holding and she liked it and it was like wow it's the first time in my life that I have been able like to share something with my mother and she was satisfied and I was satisfied at the end and then we can forget about the whole thing and keep like cooking and start to talk about something else. But the principle was that like Test. I don't know how to say it. I speak better with metaphors and stories. The world is getting out of the way again. It's funny how the people closest to us are the ones that seem to be the most challenging ones to not have an agenda. We have, Because we deeply care about them. So we have, At least it feels like we have. What feels like a caring, But it's actually as much caring and manipulation at the same time. And to step back and just notice that. Because it's easy to start. A series of reactions, Right? One will say something to their partner, Their partner will say something back, And the next thing you know, It's just a battle of reactivity. And it spirals out of control. And all it takes is one person to step back. And just notice, Like, Am I being curious? Am I really curious around what's happening? Rather than having some kind of an outcome, Trying to prove a point, Trying to too. To respond to their response, Right? It seems. . . It seems like that would be easy to do, But it seems like it's not always that easy. Exactly. I have a hack that came to me once, But it's a hack that comes with a difficulty. And the hack is, Because I have exactly this with my family, It can be super triggering, Just exactly what you just described and what we all know. But it really shifts for me if I have a specific intention. I'm going to now go to my family, But I'm going to hold it as a spiritual That really works. And one of the elements of the spiritual practice is remembering that they're humans and forget the roles and the labels. And it really works. But the difficulty is remembering that every time. Because I guess in the end it has to be about living your life as a spiritual practice. I'm not there. But I think that would somehow be the way. I'm not sure how you guys relate to that or to recognize that at all. Yeah. It's weird because I remember to set up intentions like that and for me it didn't work because the contraction will be too big. I will completely forget and be super involved in reactivity. Or become a spiritual asshole, A really big one. No, You should really drop your agenda. It doesn't work. But it's cool because that approach also I see it like this. You'd remember. . . It reminds me of this game of the computer that comes with Windows in the 90s. I think in English it's called Minesweeper. Like in spanish buscaminas like searching minds and it I don't know if you remember the name the game but I can explain it it's like a grid like it's all gray with gray squares and you click on a square and it's like you put a Affleck. And I need to resolve or clean a lot of things. A lot of squares and then it shows you probabilities or where the mines can be and then you have to work. Don't touch the mine, But discover where the probability of the mine is going to appear. Um. . . And for me. . . Sometimes I feel it's a bit like that when there is a lot of contraction and a lot of you know, Angriness and wanting to resolve something or. . . Or really fix something about a relationship. And it feels like that. Like that like okay. I know that if I touch the the agenda here, It's going to explode. Bye. It's like sometimes when the contraction is so huge, It's like I need to be gradual before letting it, Feeling it. I cannot go like directly into it. And it's more like that like make room slowly for it. And that's curious because there's a lot to talk about with it, Michael, And I have talked about it, But to end it is. . . Sometimes you can go directly into it. Or it's as easy to go directly into it, But I have uh a fear or a preconception that it will be weird to just Cut directly. And then. . . That indirectly happens when I'm not aware of that. I find it wild that people like Hans, For example, Said, I'm not there yet with this practice. And it's like, I haven't met anyone that's fully there yet. I imagine they exist somewhere, Maybe in a cave or something like that. But we're all works in progress. We're all human beings. And to learn, Like as Nunez said, It's As this thing arises, How do I relate to it? Can I go right in? Oh, Maybe not this time. Maybe they'll take a little different route, But the only way to learn. How to be with what's there is practice. So we're all practicing. What the spiritual traditions have been teaching. Indirectly for millennia. How to be with what's here. That's it. That's what they work on teaching all of us. And we have to do that by practicing. There's no other way. And, And, And none of us are there yet. If you want to go by Hans definition, It's like, No, Nobody in that. I don't think we're all just trying to learn how to relate and we get better with practice, Right? We get better, But. And I worked with a lot of people, I really developed practices, But they're still working on the same thing. Yeah, And it's Yeah, How to say this. . . When you know the relief and freedom that that this practice comes. Can can facilitate and open to It's very heartbroken, Breaking down. To see that you cannot force that on anyone. Motivate yourself. And at the same time, You know that sometimes that happens spontaneously. Like it's like, Sometimes there's a relief. Ugh. Difficult thing to resolve with my family. And everything is resolved. Marvelously and my practice just came and like take me away do the thing and it's like well thank you And sometimes I try to solve something and. . . It blew up in my face. Besides. . . You cannot tell, It's not in our control, I would say. I'm meeting a lot of meditators these last years here in Spain. I got this quest of I'm going to meet every meditator in Madrid. At least every meditator is open to me to have a conversation. Slowly. But anything I look. There are a lot of people. How to say it? A deep practice. And you can feel the presence that they have. What? It shocked me but also it It makes me very happy to see it. Almost all of them? Have something in common, Like the ones that I can feel their presence, Like very, I don't know. Very palpable, Is that they are very humble. And it's very curious because when I was younger I was expecting that, I don't know, Like deep awakening is going to clean my I don't know, My problems of self-value or. . . Or make me feel like a better person, But in the sense of. . . Like gaining some kind of power or something like that and in a way and you have a lot of power to have good relationships and be more focused. But yeah, What is interesting for me and it comes with this conversation we're having is this thing of the humility that that we have to drop the agenda of being there. And when that agenda is dropped, Being there feels more natural. And it's a contradiction. It doesn't make sense. But it feels very good and it's a good surrender I can go on with meta-horrors. I think you got on with something as far as like, You, You notice the contraction and you let go of that agenda. And then you feel how pleasurable that is. And it's, And you start to, And this goes even back to memory reconsolidation where you can, Um, Start to reinforce these patterns that feel good, Right? And before long, You're starting to build a positive reinforcement loop. And so we wonder, How do I habituate these patterns of letting go to these outcomes? And if it feels good, It's gonna habituate itself. And then, As I say this, I'm reminded that Nuno did a course with Shamil Shanderia material, And it talks a lot about this loop. Nuno, Could you go into what Shamil says about this? Yeah. And maybe you should name who Shamil is. Yeah. Shamitenderia. Why is that even good? He has a huge Shakti presence, So the feminine is beautiful in him. He's a partner of my class with Michael Staff and I'm very grateful to meet him because I will have him meet him. Well, He's famous actually, Maybe I will have meet him otherwise. He's become famous in science and meditation. Uh, He's a Um. . . He works in the university internationally. Has been studying in the fields of neuroscience and computation. Um. . . He made a curse recently. About the meeting of the models of science he and the people he worked with are studying and testing and they are very amazing and meditation and the meditation traditions and One of the methods of science is called predictive processing. Um. . . Now I'm not going to explain it super well, But in a nutshell it talks or it shows as a theory how Yeah. All the conscious experience. It's based on beliefs or practices. Priors that actually, Like in this memory reconsolidation that we were speaking about, The more reinforces the prior. The outcome you are going to experience is is predicted. By this prior. And well, It's like, To my mind, It became this new age, A world of, Yeah, You experience what you believe. You just have to believe something good and you are going to manifest that or something like that. And it's curious because I I strongly dislike, During my life, Spiritual bypassing and all the moods of the world. The new-age spiritual bypassing that can happen, But that's something that I see in some friends. And family that were into spirituality and were that way, And my mother also. But it's very funny that. . . In a way, It's science. All the different branches of psychology that I'm meeting. Lately. They are. Coming to a similar Yeah. Way of understanding that, The more you relax your agenda. To experience. Something. Yeah, How to say it? I'm getting myself in a trap here. But yeah, He's to close it is this predictive processing and working with priors and identifying the priors and working on the constructing them. I found that it relates a lot with. . . Discovering what are your subtle agendas. Right, Because those agendas are basically based on your priors, On your frame, Where you're coming from. So the more you're contracted around an agenda, The more you're just perpetuating your frame. Is that kind of where you're getting at? Yeah, You're way more eloquent than I. And yeah, It goes deep and he explains in depth how wild this goes. It's very amazing. And it's funny, As Nuno was talking about it, He talked about deconstructing the priors. And it's like. In our culture, We think of deconstructing as tearing down or removing. And it's ironic that the only way that can actually be done is to go into it with an appreciation of it. Otherwise, It strengthens rather than deconstructs. So this goes back to, Again, To the same points that we get going. Back to over and over again, Which is really appreciating what's arising and without a need for it to do anything. That allows it to not necessarily to deconstruct, But to unfold. And pointless in a way. That we can follow it to the end. To its own, I don't want to use the word deconstruction, But it will, It will, It will take on a new personality and point us in a direction that we probably couldn't have found otherwise. Is the word maybe more revelation? That's not bad. I like to think of it, If I run into a prior, I think of it as its own entity with its own intelligence. So when I, I meet a prior, I, I greet it and, And, Uh, And as I develop this relationship with the prior, It will point me to where I need to go. It might be in my body. It's usually in my body. That's where I do most of my work. I don't do a lot of conceptual work, But so it will point me. It will change quality. It will point me to another place, But it always takes me to exactly where I need to go. And it takes a lot of trust to do that. But after you do it enough times, At least personally, After I do it enough times, It definitely I can count on it. I know it's reliable. I want to ask a question there actually, Because there's a theme for me in my own personal kind of relating to my own spirituality or lack thereof or whatever is in between. It's super basic and it's a question that we've all circled around many times or maybe once, I don't know, But it's about the body, The mind, You know, Thoughts. What are they? What are they not? And it's probably a really mental question. I'd love for you to deconstruct it because I run up against it and it is very simply put, Why can we trust the body? I honestly don't know. And I probably have a bit of paranoia or something, Or there is, You know, Very briefly, I have trust issues. Okay. So that's there probably. But why? Why? This is a difficult question to answer, But I'll give it a shot. What I've noticed personally is that. . . All emotions. Are stored in the body. And they're stored in a way that. That's good. The emotions that are stored in the body. Are Not. . . Instead of flux. They're not trying to, They have no agenda. Let's put it that way. What's in the body? Those stored emotions have no agenda around what happens. They just are. What I find with the mind, Usually mind, And I still feel like thoughts also have their own intelligence, Right? Beyond what the content of the thought is. I don't think that's where the intelligence lies, But I'm not gonna get down this rabbit hole too far. But the thoughts arise usually out of protection. They're there to pull us away from what we're experiencing. That's what I find about most thoughts, And that's why, Personally, I think I don't find much use out of working with thought. But if thought is there, Then that's what needs to be worked with, And there's no way around that, And that's fine. So thought can also take us where we need to go, But it seems to be harder to meet that thought from a place The content of the thought activates other triggers, So it's harder to disidentify from the thought and allow it to do its thing. But it's possible. Right. But so that's what I feel like the difference between things that are stored in the body versus things stored in the mind. The body seems to there seem to be very stable and they are unfolding. They are as As Olivier would say, They're in process. They're not stuck anywhere. So they're flowing in that way that allows them to more easily, They'll either go. They'll pull one up into concept or unfold and become presence right there in that middle space. I know that's not a very eloquent explanation, But I hope that helps. The middle space, I like that. Like the point of meeting. That I found. That only happens when. . . At least for me when I. . . Uh drop Dead. Yeah, The. . . The pretension of a identifying where is something in the body. Or hold something worse in the mind. Yeah, What happened there gradually, Gradually. Different depending on the capacity that I have or I had have. And I see it also in friends and people I usually practice with. Is that Allowing? To that middle ground. It's where. . . What is feeling in the body moves more freely in flux and thoughts become not a problem. Neuroticity or intensity of thought is not there like occluding the experience or like I don't know like the metaphor for me is like when you I don't know have my baby crying or dogs bark the dog of the neighbor barking like like crazy and you accept it it's going to keep barking but you are going to be able to hear the other conversations with the barking that the barking is not like in the foreground. But it's also not like around or in the background, But as a figure of speech, It feels like difficult stuff gets more in there. In the background or there is more space. Um. . . Yeah, It's funny because like you, Michael, Say this, It needs that allowance. It's not deconstructing, It's allow or deescalating. I don't know. Words have different. . . Feelings and directions. All right. I always feel that when I'm talking I have to translate a lot because I have, I don't know, I experience a clear experience. It feels very sharp and clean and when I open my mouth to speak it's like. . . Say, Oh my God, I need a lot of practice here also, Of how to express this. Yeah, It's funny. A little thing from the Shamil course that we have mentioned is that one of the ways he speaks about the priors and how they are experienced once you've seen them, Once you recognize that there is a prior here, There is a strong belief. That is shaping my experience. Is that they become opaque, That you start to see the opacity of the experience. Amben. Once the opacity is clear. Like once you see it. You see it, It's there. It's like a floater in the eye or a tinnitus or whatever or something that you have to clean in your house. You can hide it under the roof, But you know it's under the roof. The rack. Um. . . And then you work with that and it becomes less opaque. And when it's less opaque. . . You can clearly see. And you see more experience. It works similar with the metaphor of the space or allow. Um. . . And is more gentle than deconstructing. Either deconstructing is important. If you're cleaning the dirt in the glass of your car. You sometimes need to deconstruct it strongly with products and with grinding it. Yeah, The gentleness is important. What we. . . Michael and I would. We talk a lot, We unfold a lot. Um. . . And we have unfolded a lot when we started to. To practice together, To do Aletheia. One of the things that that happened to me that Michael. . . Well, Ask me a lot, Like what you're experiencing right now. And then I will. . . Open to what I was experiencing and it's like, Well, There is this huge uncomfortability in the chest and can you be with it? Yeah, It's very uncomfortable and being with it is no agenda. It moves and there's this void or numbness under it and more sensations on what is uncomfortable begin to mix with something joyous and space around and there's a void something some there and it moves. It was curious because the hack after months and months of doing this is this beneficial loop. Off. Unfolding of moving. And discover the capacity that I have. I had capacity of being with uncomfortableness. But I take that for granted. I thought that everyone around was like that. And Michael told me that most of the people he works cannot feel their body. Nothing. It's very common for people not to really feel what's happening in their body. And then it's very protected, Usually by thought. And we can go into all the reasons why, But we don't have time for that. But I feel like this ability to be with what's arising can be cultivated through spiritual practice. Yeah. And that's, I think, That's one of the beautiful things. I think perhaps that's the reason they designed the damn spiritual practices in the first place, Was to be with what's arising. And so from that perspective, It seems like a pretty good idea. And you guys, Did I understand well that you kind of do Aletheia on each other or with each other? Is that what's happening or is it more fluid than that perhaps? That's a good question. It's not something that I can do, But it happens. There is no agenda also on that. I have tried. I have put myself in the position of, I'm going to unfold my wife. It sounds horrible and it is horrible. That's dangerous territory, Nuno. But it's funny that, You know, Initially, I was trained in Aletheia and Nuno wasn't and still is not. So I was able to facilitate his unfolding and help him with that. But as we've learned in Aletheia, Everything, The most important thing, And really the only important thing, Is presence. And proteins will allow the unfolding. And Nunya can be, And usually is, Remarkably present. And as palpable as it is right now. So if I want to unfold, With Nuno. Now, If I have something in my body, Let's say something that's contracted in my body, I'll ask Nuno, I'll say Nuno, Get really present for me. And he will. And I can feel that. And so can my body. And then whatever was contracted will start to soften and allow me more access and allow the unfolding to happen. Really rapidly, It's really remarkable, Without saying a word. And the only time we get in trouble when Nuno wants to start talking and cause he feels like, He feels like he, He wants to, He wants to help. He sincerely wants to help. And it's like, I'll say, Finally, I said, Nuno, Uh, Stop talking and go back to that place where you were. That was the, What's where I need you to be. And as soon as he goes back, It's like, Oh, Thank you. And I can feel everything unfolding. And in my body, And it's a beautiful. . . Some of the most powerful things that have unfolded have been in that environment without any dialogue at all. And that's important because I unfold too. And when I unfold, Nuna unfolds. That's just, I have to say that's fucking amazing. I have to swear a little bit. That's fucking amazing. Yeah. Well, That's after a lot of practice. I mean, I've been doing, I don't know how many hours I've spent unfolding stuff in myself. Yeah, I think also it's quite natural, But we used to diminish it in our world. How to translate it very quickly it's like every one of us has an intuition that we know there are people who can fight more and we are We know that we can talk with them about some things and not about other things. And it feels good to talk about that things and when the relationship with some people it's more I don't say develop, But more relaxed and more open, And there's more allowance. You know you can. Confide or express without having to trying to say something very eloquent or the right thing or really help. Um. . . What what what is expressed is It's fresh, It's more spontaneous, More unpredictable. And when I meet with friends, I don't have an agenda of where I'm going to. To tell them about how I feel today. I used to have that and it didn't work well. It seems like I have. . . I don't know. Like this kind of friendships of the teenage that you are always like having checks and balance with your friends or whatever. Um. . . And now exactly the same thing that Michael has very eloquently. Express and confuse. I find that patterns with friends, My partner, My mother, My. . . Co-workers. The people in my Sangha. My my shangha overseas with my kota fans and friends. My son here in Madrid. Everyone around. It's. . . And the thing is that, Okay, Like. Then I come. Find a lot of correlations with different perspectives and maps and views of traditions and spiritual traditions. But i don't know i i like the unfolding thing in espanol is desenvolver like uncovering It's unwelded, Like it's unwrapping. But unfolding. I don't translate it very well in my feeling. Because it's like in a folder or whatever. The felt perception of it is that something some some being or some the experience that is alive. Want to express. Um. . . You allow it to express it by stop doing the other thing that it was stopping it from express it Well, You Hans, You and I have the incredible privilege of being around toddlers and man, I can see it all the time. If there's closure, If there's like a pushback to my son, Not speaking, It's just I won't go into pheromones or body language or whatever. He knew, He know it. Yeah. Yeah. They feel it. You don't even have to look him in the eyes to see that. Oh daddy, You're giving me real attention. Right now I'm with you. Before going to look him in the eyes. Yeah, He's there. Okay, That is online. 100%. It's amazing that we were born with these qualities and they seem to be lost somewhere along the line. Yeah. And become super special and impossible and magic. But on the other hand, It is good to work them very well. Can I share a quick example? Are you not done yet, Nunya? I have time, I can go. Until we drop out exhausted. It's, Yeah, Thank you. It's the, Just because exactly what you're describing, You know, I can be a little bit, I have, I have periods where I'm a little bit shut down, Shut off. Um, And of course, You know, My daughter will feel it. My partner feels it. I remember one specific time where I was walking from the bus to home, You know, From work and there was something in me that was really moved to, Let's see how to say it, To, To let go of something. I wanted from my daughter to kind of let go of. Some relational grasping or something. And it was a beautiful movement. I really felt it as a letting go. Kind of a beautiful letting go. And as soon as I got home, She just ran to me and hugged me. And I, I knew that she felt it. She just felt that I let something go, That I was kind of clinging or whatever. I just wanted to say this. Yeah. That seems to be what you describe. And it just was wonderful. And I've had several of those moments where it's just, Yeah. It's there. Yeah. That's beautiful man. Yeah. And you were also going to say something. I think I just kind of caught you off there. You were starting a sentence as well, Nuno. Do you remember or? What you have to say, I'm enjoying so much the afterglow of your story. I feel it all the time with my little boy, With my baby. Ahem. Is what he needs. And my wife needs that also. Everyone needs it. Michael Taff has said a lot of times, And I love this thing, It's very simple, Is that actually like relationship is. It's a crucial part of all the spiritual. . . Think on the spiritual path and practices. Awakening, Liberation and so on. It happens in relationships. There's no way of it. What doesn't happen in a relationship? Everything happens in relationship. It's very beautiful. And I found that all my life I have been have like a subtle I don't know prejudice about relationships, Making it something special or. . . Whatever, There's a lot of subconscious material that I cannot control that comes from. . . Childhood shock and traumas or whatever I noticed that if I just. . . Drop the subtle agendas about any relationship with anyone. It opens like a flower. It's. . . Then I can be with everyone and have a. . . Well, It's going to be a good interaction, But I'm not looking for anything to be in any way. And the worst doesn't matter so much. Because also I'm not thinking about what I'm going to say. It works better if I don't try to. . . To write my script before talking. Because. . . Yeah, I don't know. There's a. . . I have to say this. There's a philosopher that I like, A Spanish philosopher, Ortega y Gasset. And he has this cool way of talking about intelligence. And he said something like in English would be that a measure of intelligence is the capacity of adapt your language to your interlocutor. Always shocked me. I used to think about that as humility, But now I feel it as spontaneity and unfolding. Like it's your practice to be open. Having more capacity to test, Let's think. Let the things unfold. In being a relationship. Is an art and something that I think one of the reasons meditation is important for people is that it's a practice in relationship, Especially like a Vipassana style. You're learning how to relate to what's arising. And it's like, Why am I sitting here relating to every little subtle thing that's arising in my experience? That's the skill we want to acquire, Right? And to notice, How am I relating to what's arising? How does it feel to relate to it in this way versus that way? And you begin to realize that if I don't have an agenda, If I can fully embrace and accept what's arising, It feels better. It's a lot more pleasant. And that's what Shamil talks about, This beautiful course that he has online, Which I hope he can put that in the description. It eventually gets back to the self-reinforcing forcing loop and you have a choice. You can start to establish that loop and build it and let it build itself or you can continue to suffer. And so it's definitely worth the trouble to go there. And since every human is unique, It's up to them to experiment. Like you just can't go, You can't always just read it in a book or see it in a YouTube video. You got to do your own work and experiment to what works for you. There is no right way or wrong way. And there's no right place to be or get. Like there's just, Everyone's looking for that place, Like when I get to X, When I get to this place, But there is no place to be, To get. That's just, It's not there. And, And as soon as, Let's go, Let's go of any fantasy of resolution. Them than now. They'll realize that place is here. Yeah, Exactly. And like you say, Shamir says very beautiful, Like makes, Let something beautiful to happen. I love these phrases. Make a thousand flowers bloom. Um. . . And like surrender to that in your life and your relationship and so on. And it sounds beautiful. When I practice that, I cannot do it. There's an agenda. I. . . Surrender to And I cannot have even the agenda of surrendering it. If I facilitate or practice. To have like enough capacity or presence. To stop doing what I'm doing to let that beauty happen. Then is like a gift. So I tried to resolve something with my friend. I don't know, There's a problem and then. . . In the space that opens. I can appreciate. This something new or present or fresh or the bloom. There is something that just comes to me right now about that, Which is the space is kind of working. And it's called Sanadi. That's a name. Have you heard of that? Sanadi? I think that Papaji used to use that word for. . . So Papaji was, I believe, The teacher of. . . I don't remember, But he's one of those. He studied with Ramana Maharshi. He has an amazing story. Yes, Exactly. But what, What he exactly, And he got kind of enlightened, Awakened with Ramana Maharshi and what he realized, Papaji, I have to read, I have his book. I still have to read it. I just remembering, But he says, I just have to sit there in satsang or whatever. I just have to sit there and be present. And then this thing that he calls sanity takes care of people. You know, It kind of resolves karmic knots or whatever, But that's kind of describing that. I just wanted to bring that up as a beautiful thing. Yeah. To echo a bit. Yeah. Yeah, There's a lot of good stuff about Papaji and Ramana Maharshi now. There's a guy who's called David Goodman and he talks about everything. It's very cool to check and there's a lot of examples. People like that. He even talked about a guy who was working in an office with infrastructure there in India. And he was one of the people from the Sangha of Ramana Maharshi, I think, And when he, David Woodman, I think, Talked to this guy and asked him about his experience and so on, The guy, He said something like that. I just go to my work. I sit down. I drop open. And things start to happen. Like someone called me with a problem with construction. I don't know how to help him, But I will be in contact, I do my work, And then during the day another guy calls me and they have something that can work with the other guy, And he's like a nexus of things happening. Yeah, In a less spectacular way, I sometimes feel that interaction I have with my co-workers in the work. It helps us be in a bit of relief and just have a human interaction during the day. After working so much with the computer and that is like, Okay, That's my grain of sand. Have that as a good connection from time to time with my coworkers. I actually have to say that I have a similar experience. So, Um, I really find it important to be honest about where I feel I am in my, You know, In my potential and my actual realization. And I know I have so much more to realize. I also don't want to downplay myself unnecessarily, Like the false humility. And I do see that in recent years, I've really kind of been growing this kind of, I'll just let it be. And things are, Are kind of magically working out all the time. So I have to say. That's quite cool. Yeah. I have a little bit of that going on. Yeah. Yeah. You're playing the underdog in your character movie. Yeah, Maybe sometimes. I try not to. Yeah. But I want to be honest, You know, I want to meditate so much more. I, I just understood from Michael that, You know, Before you arrived, We were talking about, Cause I looked at your website and you say, Yeah, I'm in Michael Taft's Sangha. Well, I know that he meditates really freaking early in the morning. So yeah, That's something I want to do. That's something. Yeah, Because that's what 4am or 5am where we are or? Yeah, I meditate like a crazy man. Yeah, I don't know. It's like I feel that. I don't know how to explain it, But it's like a. . . Like, You know, When you have a craft, Like you like to woodwork or paint or construct, I don't know, Models of spaceships, Then you have work, You have family and you found that you cannot be six hours a day doing that or playing video games like a lot of people. If that's your craft. Well, I found that. More and more. This meditation is a craft, Like an art, Like something that you're performing. And like an artist you need your time It was weird when I started talking with friends like yeah I wake up very early and meditate because it's the only time in the day when I can really like devote like at least two hours to meditate and read and so on. But it's not so special. Orans. Just render that superpowers and so on and it's like yeah, This is this is my woodwork. This is my my painting And it's like that, It's like you mix the pain, You move and there's joy and you're there. And you can pay the same thing a thousand times because it doesn't matter. I just want to mention one thing around that topic, And sleep, Because I know that's not true. I got this whoop on my wrist that tracks my sleep, And it told me to get more sleep. So I would habitually wake up early, And what I did was instead of getting up, I would meditate in bed, Which is, I think, A fabulous time to meditate. And it counts that as really high-quality sleep. So if you think, Well, I don't have time or I'm not getting enough sleep, Just for me, It's reassuring to know this is better than most of my sleep. And so I just, I think that's, People are always going, I just don't have time or, And And it's really just a matter of making space. And you can sneak meditation in your naps. There's a lot of Joganidra non-sleep depressed available around and that works. I've just been so, So tired. And I know what you said, Michael, Is true that good meditation is equal or better to good sleep. I've heard that before. Um, I'm a little bit scared to get up early because what it can do to my mood if I don't sleep enough, But I also, I also know that, Yeah, Like you say, Nuno, If I want to meditate with two kids, I, I need to get up very early. So yeah, I'm just kind of dreading it, But yeah, Thanks for that. The motivation and the inspiration. Yeah, There's a hint there, Like the secret is that when you have shitty meditations in the morning, Because nothing works, You're grumpy, You're asleep, You do yoga and you fall asleep. The other part of your most awake meditation is like I'm tired and grumpy. That works, That works on the long run. You're unfolding a lot of things there. And some days you have really good meditations. Yeah. To just sit anyway, Right? That's what you're saying. Okay, Be grumpy, Meditate, Meditate badly, Right? Being there like I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, Thank you. Yeah, Thank you man, It's. . . Super sweet to talk with you guys It feels like time has fly. I will gladly like meet around to more conversation. It doesn't have to be a podcast. It's cool. That is a podcast. Yeah. But if you're open. I would love that. Yeah. So it kind of feels like moving towards a natural end. I think Michael, You wanted to say something. I just, Uh, I agree with Nuno. This has unfolded beautifully on its own without any agenda around how it should be. And, Uh, I would love to do it again. Yeah, Me too, But I would love that to be a podcast as well, But it doesn't have to be. Uh, I would try to not have an agenda around it, But this is beautiful. And I, I also, I'm, I'm excited for people to listen, Uh, To you too. And, Uh, Thanks. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much for doing that with me. I know. And you know, You're super busy as a dad and you work and, Uh, As, And the coach. And I'll also, Is it, Shall I link, Would you like that? That I link your also, I would like to do that. Or are you too busy for new clients? Maybe? No, No. I have no online presence. Right. Yeah. I tried to look for you, Michael, But I couldn't find you, But we can check it out later, How to link and what to link. So we'll make sure that that works. Um, Any last words from maybe both of you? I'll give you the mic. I just. I'd like to name how much I get out of my, My coaching practice, How, How fortunate I am to have the amazing people that I work with in my life. And that anytime there's unfolding for, For a client of mine, I receive an equal measure, Same unfolding. This is stunning to me. I never expected this in the beginning, But it's an amazing practice. And a lot of my clients. End up taking a lethia. That they rarely have time in their busyness to actually go and practice with their peers. And I think that's amazing practice for anyone to get in with another person and practice unfolding. And uh. . . So I want to encourage anyone that wants to cultivate a deep psycho-spiritual practice to think about that as an option. Yeah. Yeah, It doesn't have to be. . . Chewing rocks and grinning on our meditation cushion and doing like Dope. Deep psychological, Psycho-spiritual, Emotional work. Happens when you're open to to encounter. In the situations that you use value, Don't look for it. And you cannot force it. I don't know, I would have never expected to have the fortune of practicing with the sangha of the guys from, Mostly of the guys are from the United States, And with the teachers I have worked with. I have work please. The students of Rob Burbea, That is a guy that I love. And I didn't have the fortune to meet him, But I met his friends and teachers. Um. . . Other teachers that I like. I have the fortune to. . . To meet them through other persons or at least have some conversation by email. Um. . . Yeah. I guess in the end it's this mode of. . . Being grateful. I don't know how to explain it, But. . . It's terrible to end with this, But I like this quote. I think it's from Nisargadatta. And I'm going to to change it a little. Like he says something like the problem with you guys is that you just want the things you don't have. Um. . . And don't want what you have. The only thing you have to do is to invert that. It's like, Yeah. That feels like impossible. For me it works with gratitude also, To be grateful for what I have. And don't try and don't don't I don't know, Like relax, That subtle or subconscious agenda of. . . Of waiting to feel like true gratitude and joy when I. . . Have something that I'm really passionate about. That is impossible or feels like impossible right now. Yeah, It's weird and paradoxical. But it goes deep and you know Hans and I that you can find that gratitude with very simple things when you have the the incredible opportunity of being around little, Little, Little ones. So it's a hack. You can extrapolate that to other things. Yeah, Thank you. And I do want to thank you, Hans, For having us. It's really wonderful.