Wildly Tarot Wisdom

Holly and Esther of the Wildly Tarot Podcast interview Insight Timer Tarot teacher Keziah Gibbons about her Tarot Wisdom course here on Insight Timer. Learn what two experienced Tarot professionals made of the course, why we keep laughing about warehouses, and enjoy the conversation. Keziah offers a live Tarot reading every Monday at 2 pm London time here on Insight Timer, teaches the Tarot Wisdom and other courses, and offers Tarot readings as an Insight Timer 1:1 mentor.

Transcript

Welcome to the Wildly Tarot Podcast.

Hi Esther.

Hi Holly.

We just finished recording our interview with Kaziah Gibbons,

Which you are about to listen to.

And we're so excited for you to hear this chat.

We had so much fun with Kaziah.

She is a tarot teacher,

Reiki master,

And also a practitioner of neurolinguistic programming.

She has a super great course on Insight Timer,

Which is the primary thing that we talk about with her in this episode.

And it's a tarot class unlike others that we've seen.

It's so good,

Esther.

Oh,

Just still fangirling.

I know.

I'm all tingly after speaking with her for an hour,

Because she's been in my ear balls for three weeks now.

I know.

And then now I'm talking to her.

I know.

She's just so cool.

And her class is really awesome.

And we talk a lot about it.

And we talk a lot about how much we love her.

So get ready for it.

It's a very,

Very loving episode we got going on.

Like we pathetically fangirled for like 45 minutes and six seconds.

And the rest of the content is like actual meat and potatoes.

I don't think.

We totally kept it together,

Esther.

What are you talking about?

It was totally great.

Anyway,

We hope you enjoyed this episode.

And make sure to check out the show notes for all the different ways that you can reach out to Kazaia and keep this going with her.

She's awesome.

She's a really great person to support.

And yeah,

Enjoy.

Yeah,

Totally.

You're going to love it.

Don't fall asleep.

That's my warning.

Pull over.

Get nice and cozy and listen to this episode.

I do feel like we need to reiterate that the sleepiness is because of her beautiful,

Lovely voice,

Not because she's boring.

Boring.

Very interesting.

The calmness adjunct position to like,

For us,

Is striking.

Yeah,

Maybe we just yell too much.

Maybe that should be feedback we accept from ourselves.

Anyway.

No,

It's in my warehouse.

It's done.

It's gone.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Enjoy the episode.

And we love you.

We love you so much.

["Sleepy Night"] All right.

So we're so excited to chat with you about your amazing,

Amazing audio programming,

Basically,

All of the classes that you have available out there in the world.

Thank you.

I'm really excited to be on the podcast.

I listen every week,

So it's really nice to actually be on here.

Thank you for inviting me on.

Of course.

Of course.

I didn't realize you were a listener.

That's so fun.

And embarrassing.

For some reason,

When people tell me that they listen to the podcast,

I always get a little like,

Ah.

It's a tiny cringe.

Well,

And I feel a little bit embarrassed just because your audio is amazing.

And we keep having audio problems leading up to this week.

So it's just kind of like,

Oh,

Yes.

Thank you for loving us little lowly.

Happy,

Loving us little professionals.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Now,

I'm a bit starstruck,

Actually,

Because it's that thing,

Isn't it?

I know your voices really well because I listen to you.

But this is the first time we've spoken to you.

This is the first time we've spoken.

And I have that sometimes with people who listen to me as well.

They'll be very familiar with my voice.

So they might fall asleep to it.

And then we have a conversation,

And it's something different.

Your voice is very soothing.

And that is one of the more delightful.

I mean,

In addition to the content for the class that,

So basically,

You sent us the audio files for your Insight Timer Tarot course.

And so we've been listening to those over the last few weeks and just completely falling in love with your voice and your teaching style,

How cool and dynamic this class is,

How unique it is,

And how the structure even feels so kind of thoughtful and innovative.

And so finally getting to have you on the phone or whatever,

Virtual phone,

Is really cool.

Yes,

It really is super cool.

Yeah.

So I think just right off the bat,

I think the thing that people would notice first about your Insight Timer class,

Which we will link in the show notes,

Of course,

Dear listeners,

And we have a couple of fun announcements about that that we'll get to closer to the end of the episode.

But the cool thing about it is that it's a really unique organizational structure.

You are not just going through the major arcana and then the minor arcana.

It's really designed to be meditative and thoughtful.

And presumably,

You already had the structure in place when you went to Insight Timer or they approached you about having it be sort of this meditative class rather than like a more structured traditional class.

But I would love to hear more about how you made the decisions about what order to place these lessons.

Yeah,

OK.

So it actually took me five years to create the course.

And I didn't know.

I didn't always know it was going to be on Insight Timer.

I knew I wanted to do an online tarot course.

And some of the reasoning behind the structure and some of the content,

Well,

Firstly,

I really wanted it to be accessible to beginners.

So I wanted someone with no tarot experience to be able to just come in,

Listen,

And learn.

Experientially,

I tried to have something to do in every lesson as well.

And also,

I wanted to help people who are already more experienced practitioners to use the tarot in other ways.

So I'm an accredited trainer of NLP,

Neurolinguistic Programming.

And I also deliver psychologically informed environments training in organizations.

And so some of the course is I describe it sometimes as being a coaching course in disguise because some of the exercises are from NLP,

From psychology,

From the last 50,

60 years,

And used tarot as kind of a unique way to approach that.

So that's how it got structured.

I noticed that a lot in episode 18,

Where you talk about the Queen of Pentacles,

The exercise that you have in the Queen of Pentacles lesson is very intensive.

And you start off by saying,

This might not be something that you're ready for now.

And I love that because I do feel like sometimes when people get involved with tarot,

A lot of the messaging sort of amongst the tarot community is how you shouldn't get so bogged down in the love and light mentality of using tarot or the divinatory way of using tarot.

And the exercise that you put together with the Queen of Pentacles,

Which is sort of about that healing,

Nurturing environment,

Basically involves assigning a tarot card to every single life event,

Whether it's major or minor,

And then looking for patterns within the cards,

Which is a really intensive exercise.

And it is later in the sequence,

It's day 18,

So it isn't the first thing you're doing.

But you're definitely not shying away from encouraging that pretty deep diving stuff.

But still,

It's such a,

Because you're offering the out and saying,

Maybe just listen to this,

And then try this later,

Or try this under the supervision of a therapist even.

It's just kind of like allowing people to both go at their own pace,

But also push themselves where needed.

Yeah,

And it's something,

The feedback I've had from that one is that not only is it quite a deep dive,

Especially if you go into your whole life experience,

Because you can take that exercise and apply it to one area,

Like your health or your love life or whatever area of your life.

But if you're going to go into your whole life,

There's a lot there.

Whoever you are,

There's going to be a lot there.

And the other feedback I had is that it's time consuming,

Because I've got people on there who are in their 60s and say,

Do you really want me to sit down and write everything out?

And so,

Yeah,

It is important,

I think,

To be able to offer this and also to say,

You don't have to do it sequentially.

It has been structured and planned in a certain order.

But always work with what works for you.

And I do that in all my courses,

Work with what works for you.

And if it doesn't work for you,

Find something that does.

Yeah,

I've taken a lot of tarot courses,

Like whether they're beginning courses or fine tuning certain areas.

And by far,

This is my favorite because of the freedom you give the listener to either sit with a particular day for a month at a time.

You give them the freedom to kind of,

Let me just say,

I wrote this down.

There is no pressure to keep certain cards and opinions.

You're just noticing,

Reflecting,

And organically accepting.

That's,

To me,

The takeaway of this course.

It's a very approachable course for beginners.

But it's still challenging for those of us who have definitions already in our hearts and that are automatic to us when we draw cards to challenge us to kind of either rethink them in different contexts.

Like the court cards episode is very much like considering court cards and their contexts and how they apply.

And one thing you said about the Knights,

Or they have a mission to complete.

And I was like,

Oh my gosh,

That is so perfect,

Just as a summary for the Knights and what the energy they embody.

And so I'm learning things from this course.

And considering them and then being like,

Yeah,

This totally fits with how I see the cards and can feel the cards within me.

Or there's other things that's like,

Okay,

This works for Kazaya,

But I can totally see where it doesn't work for me.

But you know what?

That's how tarot is.

And you give the listener that freedom.

And I think that's the best thing about this course personally.

Well,

It's interesting you say that that's how tarot is because you're absolutely right.

We can have set meanings or we can have meanings that we use habitually if we've been working with the tarot for a long time.

But actually when you're reading a really good,

And I've heard you guys do this when you draw cards on the show.

When you're a really good reader,

You're not going to go necessarily to the set meaning,

You're going to look at the context.

So I think the important difference there is between like structure and content.

So the tarot is amazing for having structure.

We have the different suits,

The major and minor arcanas,

We have the numbers and the court card personalities and whatever deck you have that will transfer across in some way.

And so there's a wonderful structure there.

And because you have that structure,

It gives you freedom to really get into your own content.

And as you say,

Esther,

That's how tarot is.

Yeah,

I think that like the idea that people often have when they first start reading tarot is like really just trying to get the basics down perfectly.

But I think that having the structure,

So I guess we could talk a little bit about the structure of the course.

I'd like to hear more about it anyway,

But also like I noticed that lesson six is when there's an introduction to the major arcana.

Like before lesson six,

So that's almost a week into the lesson,

You're talking about what intuition is,

What tarot can do,

Like all these sorts of building blocks while still wrapping in archetypes to each of those topics.

So for people who are familiar with tarot,

Like we are who are pretty confident tarot readers,

You're still getting something out of it because it's not just sort of like rote explanation of your feelings about the cards.

And it's cool to see how you link certain things like the three of wands episode,

I would not have associated the three of wands with the same things that you were for the framework of like introducing tarot more generally,

But it works so well and it kind of helps with that getting out of my own established framework.

And I think that kind of the entire first week of the course sort of does that,

Where it's not about card meanings really,

It's about all of this other stuff.

And there's all of these really cool,

Helpful hints that are sort of tips,

I guess,

That are sort of coming through that first week that helped me.

Like I think the metaphor that you make about intuition more generally in lesson three,

Where you said building a relationship with your intuition is like building a relationship with the warehouse manager.

So it's sort of making this distinction mentally between an office manager and a warehouse manager.

And the office manager is sort of like the front of house stuff.

And the warehouse manager is more of the back of house stuff that you're not as aware of the goings on in the warehouse,

But developing that relationship with the warehouse manager is where your intuition gets stronger.

And I just really love that metaphor so much.

And I would really like to hear you talk a little bit more about it,

As maybe like a little insight into what the episode is like,

But I also had never heard that metaphor before.

So it's just so cool.

Yeah,

So my understanding of intuition and how it works,

And I actually have an intuition course on insight timer as well,

Which is where I started to really explore these concepts,

Is that it is very much about the warehouse as your unconscious mind.

And then the office is your conscious mind.

So what you have is the warehouse receiving all this different information,

And that's received from your environment.

So we receive,

I don't know the exact number,

It's something like 200 billion pieces of information per second.

It's ridiculous.

Oh my gosh.

And of course- Whenever we're exhausted.

Yeah,

Exactly.

We can't cope with that much information,

Can we all at once?

So a lot of it has to be filtered out before it even gets to our conscious minds.

And so it goes into the unconscious.

And some of it is kind of stored there at the back of the warehouse,

It's never gonna be used again.

Some of it is processed into something else.

So in the warehouse is where we start to learn patterns,

Or when this happens,

That tends to happen afterwards.

And that might be an association that we don't make consciously,

But we make unconsciously.

And then some of the information that we receive in any moment,

Of course,

Isn't just from external influences,

For example,

Our senses,

Any guides that we have with us,

But also from internally,

We have our memories,

All of our previous life experience,

Our understanding of how the world works.

And we also have the structure of our unconscious,

Which is the structure of the warehouse,

Which is about the sort of collective unconscious.

So,

You know,

Lessons we've learned as a species,

Lessons that we have from our culture.

So all of this comes together in the warehouse.

And then our conscious minds just there in the office,

And something might come up from the warehouse,

And the conscious mind,

The office manager might say,

What,

You know,

What is this?

I don't know what this is.

I don't know why you've sent it to me.

It's rubbish and ignoring it.

Or if we learn to understand that actually everything that happens in the warehouse has a purpose.

Sometimes it can be an outdated purpose,

But that's a different conversation.

But if we learn to trust what the warehouse manager sends,

Then we can get really strong intuition.

This is a little bit of a off track moment,

But I've been listening to Oprah Winfrey's new book.

And it is called,

What Happened to You?

And it's co-written by a neuroscientist who specializes in childhood trauma.

And they kind of talk a lot about that in there as well.

So it's like kind of the idea that like some of the reactive stuff that happens with us comes from this area where we're not even really sure where or why it happened.

And by the time it gets to the conscious mind,

You're like,

Where did this even come from?

And so like figuring out ways to deprogram that is a really crucial part of like healing from any sort of big T trauma or a little T trauma that we may have gone through in our entire lives.

And I think that that aligns really nicely for me visualizing sort of this warehouse idea where you're totally right.

Sometimes something will end up on your desk,

Like metaphorical desk.

And you'll be like,

Where did this come from?

Why am I suddenly like crying in a target parking lot?

Like what happened?

And it's because something got sent to the office.

Something got sent to your desk by the warehouse and you're just sitting there like,

Now I have to deal with this thing,

But I'm not really sure where it came from or why it's here.

But the more that you can get in touch with your intuition,

The more you can sort of like rationalize why it might be on your plate or why it might be on your desk.

And then you can find a better way to handle it than just being kind of like shocked.

Yeah.

And sometimes the better way to handle it might not happen consciously as well.

So,

You can always send a message to the warehouse that says,

I know there's a reason for this,

But the impact isn't useful for me.

So could you possibly find another way to fulfill this positive intention?

And then we'll all be happy.

Yeah,

Exactly.

But I just love that that happens in the first week of the course.

So it's something that like we're digging into ways to do,

Because you do open so many doors through regular tarot practice that you may not be totally prepared to handle.

So talking about intuition and ways to handle that sort of information and feedback is so helpful in that first week to just kind of like be able to,

I guess,

Sidestep some of the more difficult stuff if you need to.

Yeah.

And as you say,

There are doors opened when you work with tarot.

I think it's important to say though,

Like I know people who won't touch tarot because of what it might bring up.

And that's entirely up to them.

But it is important to be clear that,

I don't know if there will be any listeners to this who are not familiar with tarot,

Because this is a tarot podcast.

But for people who are not familiar with tarot,

They need to understand that those things are there anyway,

Those energies are there anyway.

And the tarot is just showing them to you.

Absolutely.

So that's what's so empowering about it as well.

Well,

And we've talked about this on the podcast a lot,

Where there are a lot of ways that you can,

And there are a lot of readers who actively avoid going into deep stuff.

But the most,

I guess,

Straightforward way to do it is also something that you touched on a little bit in several of your episodes,

Which is question asking in a way that becomes leading to the answers you're looking for.

So rather than,

I think that in one of the episodes that I was listening to yesterday,

You're talking about how saying,

What do I need to know is useful,

But you can also narrow that down and avoid the stuff that might feel a little bit too,

Like too much almost.

And we do that on the podcast all the time.

It's one of the reasons why we always try to end on an action item,

Just so that it doesn't feel quite like,

Okay,

Well now what?

Like you can always framework questions to be a little bit more,

I guess,

Like active or reflective based on how you're asking them.

Yeah,

Definitely.

And I think the outcome,

Like knowing what your outcome is,

Having your outcome in mind is really important.

Because you can come to the Tarot and just be like,

Okay,

I'm gonna draw some cards,

See what happens.

And that is one way of doing it.

But if there is something specific that you want,

And you might not necessarily know what that is,

It's worth taking the time to think about what that is.

And then taking that to the cards rather than just being open to whatever comes.

I mean,

I've done both ways,

Obviously,

And I imagine you will have done as well,

But having an outcome where you need a specific outcome,

Knowing what the outcome is is really important.

Yeah,

And I do,

I mean,

All of us have probably had experiences where somebody says,

I'd love a reading,

I don't know what I wanna know about.

And then you find that like a majority of the helpfulness sometimes feels like it comes from discussing what the possible questions are with the queer end,

Like the client or the friend or the student,

Or the friend or the sibling or whoever is asking you for a reading with a little bit more like amorphous of a goal.

Sometimes asking people to think about what their goals are for what they'd like to hear about or whatever is part of the reading,

Even though the reading hasn't technically started yet.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And also when it's a general reading,

In my experience,

Whatever is on this person's mind will come up in the general reading.

And the general reading will tend to be about that.

And that's one of the things that happens a lot.

The other is if there's a really specific question,

Sometimes the cards will just ask the question back to you.

It can be frustrating,

You know,

There's no answers,

But here is your question.

Right,

Yeah.

You can agree that this is your question,

Right?

And then the person's like,

Yes,

I know this is my question.

For sure.

It happens with us too.

In the creation process,

Like Holly touched on,

There was really no,

From the Fool all the way to whatever King card we ended up,

There's no progression that's in any sort of distinct order.

How did you kind of develop the course?

And did you have the themes in place and you just kind of inserted cards through your own sort of journey that you wanted to take the listener through?

Or was there something going on otherwise in the background for you to kind of come in and out with different cards in each episode out of order?

Yeah,

So I mean,

Firstly,

There's 30 sessions and there are 78 cards.

So some of the cards just aren't in the title of the session at all,

Although of course we cover them all.

And so the structure of the course was there first.

It came from a live workshop that I used to do.

I haven't done any live workshops for a while,

Certainly for the last year or so.

Right.

But that's where the structure came from.

And then as I put it into the 30 day format,

Which is what Insight Timer was sticking to at that time,

Then 30 sort of different themes for the lessons became apparent.

And then it was just really clear to me which cards belonged to which lesson.

So I think we do start with the Fool and end with the world,

But that's the only progression numerically or sequentially that's kind of in which card is chosen for each lesson.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And the Fool is such a good place to start anyway because of all of the symbolism of that.

So that makes a lot of sense to sort of start and end.

But I also just really think that it's cool.

Like there's a lot that comes through about who you are through like which kind of,

Or to me,

This is probably projection.

So you can completely tell me I'm way off base if you disagree.

But I do find it interesting that,

For example,

The Four Kings are primarily focused on all together.

They are linked together in one episode.

But then some cards like the Nine of Pentacles,

Even if there are other cards incorporated into that lesson,

It still is a card that sort of gets to stand on its own.

And I think that that's kind of,

You have other meditations and other courses about some sort of more woman experience-oriented meditations.

And that sort of felt exemplified in that decision because a lot of the times people will have kings stand alone or they'll make a decision that all of the court cards need to be linked with the other court cards of their level.

But there are some queens that get to be on their own and then all the kings are just kind of hanging out together.

Yeah,

It's cool to sort of like,

I feel like that's the other way that people sort of get to know you as a teacher is seeing how these decisions got made and what gets cut.

Yeah,

That's interesting.

I think you may have something from my warehouse that's not something I was aware of.

You're like,

Do I hate the kings?

I think I enjoy the focus of the kings being on standing in your power in the self-empowerment aspect of the kings because sometimes we just so tackle them individually,

It's kind of overwhelming and kind of like,

There's sometimes a misogynistic bent to sorts of like king feelings like authoritarianism,

That sort of thing.

But with you tackling them all together,

You just kind of got out of the way.

That was nice.

Yeah,

And I think it is important.

And nowadays we see this more,

But you don't have to go back very far in Tarot courses and books,

Et cetera,

To find that the king is somehow placed above the queen.

And I see them as being on the same level.

So yeah,

I'm not sure I could be comfortable with placing one above the other.

Certainly we do live in a misogynistic world,

So I wouldn't want to continue that by placing the kings above the queens.

So I like having them on the same level.

They're the same level of maturity.

They just have different experience.

Yeah.

And focuses,

I guess.

Like,

Yeah,

It's really interesting because I do think that that's a pitfall that,

Is that the,

Is it a pitfall or a pratfall?

I don't know,

Whatever.

I don't have that one right now.

I do think that that's kind of like a thing that people accidentally fall into,

Where no matter how aware of gender issues someone can be,

For some reason those court cards still just get to be where people fall right back into the idea that there's this linear progression of almost value or capability that involves the page,

Which is so,

In Toth,

Just full-blown a princess.

So it's often a more feminine card than people would consider the knight.

That there's this immature girl to super advanced strong man pathway that everyone has to go on.

And that somehow the really strong man king card is more capable and more valuable than the queen card that's like directly next to it.

Yeah.

And there are some decks that are more and more like sort of switching that up and even like just completely swapping the queen and king in the order for the guidebook and for interpretation reasons,

But it still is just something that people can accidentally fall into.

So I'm always happy to see the kings a little bit less like emphasized.

But maybe we both have the same warehouse issues.

I like this,

We've got lots of warehouse issues in this episode,

Okay.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

When do we not?

When do we not?

That's true,

It's very true.

When you're writing episodes,

You said this was like a course workshop that you had in live session beforehand.

When you were kind of transforming it into like audio meditative format,

Which FYI,

Anybody who listens to this and you're just a little bit sleepy,

Your voice just like lulls you into a sense of like warmth and comfort.

Peaceful,

I mean,

It's just so peaceful.

It makes the hard topics really feel way more doable because you're like not stressed about it.

You've lulled this into a false sense of security and we're now your servants forever.

But like in switching it from like a live workshop,

Which I'm sure it probably lasted a few hours like as a session or multiple sessions,

Not only was the difficulty of changing it into like a,

10,

15 minute audio format,

But were there any cards that you had a difficult time,

Kind of like more difficult time than others?

Like the full would be,

I think sort of easy,

Like for your first episode,

Because like of the archetype,

The full embodies and it'd be kind of like,

Okay,

Well,

Here's our opening and here's the full.

And you go through beautifully the full episode.

But were there other cards that kind of came up and were more,

I don't wanna say like problematic,

But was it more difficult to fit certain,

Yeah,

Tricky,

You know,

Cards to put into an audio thematic episode,

I guess.

Not really.

I mean,

I kind of did it the other way around.

So the workshop was the structure of the content,

What is taught in each lesson.

And then I just wanted an appropriate card for each lesson.

So I would write the main part of each lesson and then come back to it and decide which card fitted into that rather than trying to choose a card and then fit the lesson around that.

And,

You know,

I did have to add some things in and take some things out,

But the cards seemed to come in my memory anyway,

In my belief,

They came quite intuitively and easily.

I don't know,

Maybe it was really hard at the time.

Your warehouse block that or something.

Possibly,

Yeah.

It's in a box in the corner.

Yeah,

Exactly.

No one can,

No one knows what's in there.

We're not gonna.

So how long were you teaching the class in person before transitioning it to an online format?

Well,

I suppose it kind of overlapped.

So as I say,

It took five years to get online.

And during that time,

I taught the workshop a few times,

Sometimes it would be like half a day,

Three hours is half a day for me,

That's plenty.

Sometimes it would be a day,

So,

You know,

More like six hours,

Six or seven hours.

And I'd also taught it in,

I sometimes go into organizations who do employee engagement.

So I've actually taken this workshop into businesses as well as something that helps with employee engagement for them.

And that was really fun as well.

So they kind of overlapped.

I was creating the online,

Had several iterations.

At one point,

It was gonna be a video course,

But eventually it just fell into line.

The right things happened at the right time for it to come onto Insight Timer.

Yeah,

The Insight Timer thing,

And that's actually when you initially emailed us to kind of let us know that this existed,

It had not even occurred to me that there would be tarot content on Insight Timer.

I know.

And I was like you saying,

Oh,

I have this course on Insight Timer and us looking into it.

I realized that Insight Timer is an incredible educational resource.

That I think that like,

I don't wanna sound like we're an Insight Timer ad,

But I was really like kind of shocked at how many cool things are there.

And also the added benefit of being on Insight Timer is that you're able to use,

Like I think there's one lesson right at the beginning where you talk about how the structure for setting up your tarot reading is the same thing that you would be doing.

Like the performance of tarot reading is the same thing as the performance of meditation.

And because you're on a meditation app,

It feels almost like you're able to jump into those comparisons,

And it doesn't have to be quite so like,

Here's what some people do for tarot reading,

Here's what other people do for tarot reading.

You can assume that the people who found you there already know how to center themselves in some way,

Already know how to create space in some way.

And so you're able to kind of like go into more depth with cards and more depth with these like,

You know,

Neuro-linguistic connections and stuff,

Because those sorts of basics maybe are already assumed of the student.

Yes and no.

I mean,

We have new people coming on to Insight Timer all the time.

So,

You know,

Someone might sign up today and it's their first experience with it.

But also we do have lots of experienced meditators.

Actually,

One of the reasons though that I point people to you,

Because in the classroom I have like a list of recommended resources,

Is because you do readings and you talk them through in the podcast.

And like one of the main things that students want is to hear or to see,

But in this case to hear,

How tarot readings are done.

Yeah.

Because that,

You know,

They practice for themselves.

Some of them will want to go in and practice reading for others,

But they also,

You know,

It's helpful to have examples of how this is how it's done.

And the more examples,

The better,

I think.

Yeah,

I totally agree with you.

I think it's interesting because some listeners really listen just for deck reviews and some listeners really listen just for the readings.

So we can't ever stop doing either of those.

We can't stop doing both.

We just can't.

We try to think of like other ways to like mix it up or whatever,

But it's just not possible.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Because I do,

And I think like,

I think listening to other people reading or one of my friends sent me a vintage book from I think like the early 70s,

That you know how they have like those chess books where they recount chess matches so that you can see what moves these chess masters will make next.

It's kind of like that,

But with tarot reading.

And it's just a thin book,

But it walks through all of these readings,

Like one after the other,

Just like 150 pages of people being walked through readings.

And I was looking through it and I was like,

Gosh,

Imagine only having like so few resources to get to experience other people's readings.

Like you could go get a reading for yourself,

Or if you were being trained by a tarot teacher,

You could hear the way that they do it.

But otherwise you'd have to find a literal book.

And now in,

You know,

2021 or even just,

You know,

2010,

There's like stuff online.

Like you can get so much more access to how other people are like doing readings just out in the world.

And I think that that's one of the things that really sets this course apart is that it is that.

And it's also all of these really important thematic things that are coming through as well.

It's not just card definitions or not just like how to read.

It feels way more dynamic and interesting.

And the more ways that people can hear people talk about tarot,

The better.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And I think that's important.

And certainly,

You know,

In a course,

You need to have,

People need to experience input,

So to see or to hear it.

People need to get a chance to practice.

People need to get a chance to think about how they're going to apply this.

All of these things need to happen.

So if you only have sort of one of those,

Then it's just less full,

Which is why I've really gone for being experiential in the sessions.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Because that's one thing I think that sets this apart.

Like we've reviewed books before that have tarot exercises in there and things like that.

But this is,

I think,

Like a leveled up challenging like course as far as exercises go.

Like there's,

It's just so plentiful.

Like every episode pretty much either has at least one,

If not like two to five,

You know,

Tarot exercises for you to interact personally with the card and not necessarily interact with the definition of the card,

Which I think is where a lot of tarot courses sort of established like,

Okay,

And this is the queen of swords.

And this is the definition for the queen of swords.

And if the queen of swords appears in business,

This is exactly what it means or things like that.

There's a like genuine organic structure to these lessons that allow you as the rear to bloom and not the higher font on high to bloom,

If that makes any sense.

Like it's,

It shifts that not,

Oh,

I don't want to say that sense of power,

But it's very self-empowering to take this lesson,

Even as a person who has been reading tarot for a few years.

Yeah.

You know,

It's still very empowering.

Like you said,

You've intentionally structured certain like,

Guidance things in here to kind of empower people,

But it's also just a really good course.

I adore it.

So sometimes as we might fall into this thing where we just want to tell the people we're talking to for the podcast,

How much we love them.

Yeah,

We do.

We're like fangirls.

We're just like taking this whole like hourly experience to fangirl over you and your things.

So it's mutual.

As I say,

I do listen to the podcast every week.

And this morning,

As my daughter was going to school,

I said to her,

I'm going to be on the Wildly Tarot podcast today.

And she's like,

Is that that one you always listen to?

Oh,

I love it.

I got into my mother's car after taking her prescription into the pharmacy.

And she was listening to my podcast.

And I was like,

Is that me?

Yeah,

I thought I could listen to your podcast on the drive home.

And I was like,

OK.

So weird.

OK,

Mom.

But anyway,

I mean,

As you know,

Like it's anyone who's producing content,

People are going to be consuming it.

And we have to be OK with that because that's why we're doing it.

Right.

Like,

Yeah,

I didn't know this.

It's like in the deepest dark corner of my warehouse that people listen to this.

I just put it out and then ignore it.

So yeah,

Behind a curtain or something.

Exactly.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Now,

There's always that shame,

That like toxic way that we get raised to not be loud about our pride about things we've accomplished.

So we're always working through those things.

Yeah.

And it's that thing,

Isn't it?

You know,

That it's an old and wise saying that you should treat yourself as you would treat your best friend.

And of course,

You tell your best friend to be proud of what they're doing.

But we don't do that for ourselves.

And so it's useful to be able to learn to do that.

Maybe it's a lifelong learning.

But yeah,

I love your podcast as well.

Thank you so much.

Well,

Then we feel less bad about just gushing.

So the other thing is that there are you do have some Spotify playlist of I guess probably it's separate content completely,

Right?

But similar themes,

But just shortened versions for both tarot and some Reiki stuff that you do as well as some other meditations.

Yeah.

So this there,

I think it's four or five.

I should know,

But it's a very small number of tracks on the tarot and meditations album.

And they actually originated in the course.

They're extended versions of meditations that are in the course.

And they're just there for people who would like to get the meditations without having to do the course basically and just to meditate.

And then the Reiki precepts meditations.

When I was studying to become a Reiki master,

I worked a lot with the Reiki precepts,

Which are sort of the philosophical side of Reiki.

And so the way that I process things is to turn them into meditation.

So that became a meditation album.

I love it.

And I do think that the meditation so the course is obviously very,

Very,

Very good.

But I also super love the Spotify meditations because they just jump right in to actual like thoughtful meditation.

And it's such an easy sort of,

You know,

Six minute thing to do just to kind of get a little bit more centered and a little bit more in yourself when you're about to start reading tarot.

And that's for dear listeners.

That would be a really great way to sort of introduce yourself to the vibe that we're going for with the course.

Before deciding if you want to do the whole course.

Although I really do think that the course is valuable for readers of all levels.

Like if I were brand new to tarot,

I think that I would have really valued some of the lessons that are just sort of like imbued throughout the entire course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's feedback that I found really satisfying.

Like when I recorded the course,

I think there's 10 hours,

5 hours.

My maths is going,

But a lot of audio content in there.

And so,

You know,

That involved going to a studio,

Doing the recording,

Obviously writing it first,

Then recording,

Then editing,

And then releasing it.

And I had no idea how this was going to go down.

It could have been awful.

We can't objectively assess our own creations until we get some feedback,

I think.

So one of the really satisfying things has been that people have been able to come into the course as complete beginners and come out of it feeling really confident about reading tarot and maybe even taking it to reading for friends and family or looking at how they can take it further.

And then the sort of experienced readers have enjoyed it as well.

That has been very,

Very satisfying and unexpected.

You know,

It wasn't expected.

So yeah.

In the experience of creating this course,

I won't tell anyone if you don't,

But what was your favorite episode to come out of this process?

What was like,

What's one that like you really enjoy?

Lesson.

Sorry.

Carve.

Lesson.

We keep saying episode and I'm like,

No,

That's not what they're calling it.

I'm so used to episode format.

I'm like,

Episode 17.

Episode how our brains work.

So day 17.

No,

I'm just kidding.

So for what day is kind of your favorite to kind of either look back on or remembering to write what was sort of like the one that sort of gets some fondness from you more than others.

Oh,

Do I have to just choose one?

Maybe your top three.

I'll give you three.

It's okay.

Okay,

So I really like day 18,

Which we talked about earlier with the sort of life pattern practice and that is part of I sometimes as a healer,

I'll use that as part of something which I call life pattern realignment.

And then once we've got the life pattern,

We do some Reiki drum journeying with that pattern.

So I really like that.

The manifesting,

I think it's day five where we actually do some sort of goal setting and manifesting with the tarot.

I enjoy the things that I use on myself,

I guess,

Which actually is most of them or all of them,

But I'm blathering now.

The pattern recognition thing I think is so important because we do.

I feel like that is such a crucial part of the manifestation component.

Like it's so good to have both throughout the lessons because it's really easy to feel like,

Wow,

I'm not like manifesting things in the way that I want to and manifestation is something that I think a lot of people have very vague understandings of but not as many people have very strong understandings of it.

So having those two paired and obviously they're a couple of weeks apart in the lessons or two weeks apart,

I suppose.

But including then the pattern recognition and breakdown in the manifestation sort of like idea is so helpful because that's often I have found the thing that prevents the manifestation is that you are experiencing these patterns that you're not even aware of.

And if you look at your list of life events and you see all of these aces and like no tens,

It's like you start new,

Which I know would be my problem.

I haven't even done this exercise,

But I 100% guarantee it's like I'm honestly I have joked about this with Esther before it's shocking.

We've been doing this for almost three years because that is not in my pattern.

My pattern is never to do something for three.

Wow.

But yeah,

It's like when you can recognize those patterns,

Then the manifestation gets stronger.

So doing both kind of helps and then followed by your very final episode where you sort of bring back the questions that you asked the student to think about for the first I just said episode two for the first lesson.

It kind of brings that back at the very end where you're thinking about all of the different tools that you've built up over the previous 30 lessons.

Yeah,

I think it is important to stop and assess sort of where we're at.

There's no point setting a goal if we if we never know when we've met it.

So that is kind of important to reflect at the end of any process and the course is definitely a process and the thing about the patterns is that one of the reasons I like that day 18 is that often there's so much sort of rhetoric or narratives around once you know your patterns,

You can break them.

You can change them.

And with this exercise,

It's not so much about changing patterns as about learning to use those patterns towards how you would like your life to be.

So if there's a card which recurs,

It's not necessarily saying I don't want that card to be around anymore.

It's about,

You know,

Where are the positive aspects of this card?

Where are the resources in this card?

Where are the strengths of this card and how can I really use them to my best advantage?

Yeah,

Yeah,

That's a really nice way to look at it.

You're totally right.

Yeah,

Totally.

So aside from day 18 and day 5,

What was another favorite episode because we didn't quite finish that discussion?

Yeah,

Esther's like,

I'm not letting you off the hook.

We need one more.

Tell me now.

That's what I want to know.

I can't say I enjoy them all.

I think there's one in the court cards where we know it's not in the court cards.

It's in the suits where we use language,

Different kinds of language around different suits.

And that comes from my work in NLP where we have the representational system.

So,

You know,

How do we represent experience to ourselves?

Is it visually?

Is it auditory?

Is it kinesthetically?

And so that I took that and applied that to the suits and looked at the language we use and which language belongs to which suit.

And I just found that really fun.

So,

You know,

I think that people doing the course do as well.

So I'm going to trust the ones who say that they do.

We have to.

We have to accept the compliments that we receive.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well,

I think that we are kind of wrapping up,

Right?

Yeah,

I think so.

Yeah.

Awesome.

And thank you so much,

Because I have for being here with us.

This was super,

Super fun.

And it's always such a pleasure to meet people who we share so much interest with.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

I really enjoyed it.

Thank you for listening.

That was our show.

Next week.

We are talking about SoulCards.

Woo.

The IBA edition.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

But more largely all of the SoulCards by Christine Fridam with art by Kokorina.

So fun.

And also don't forget to send us your questions.

You can find all of our contact information at WildlyTaro.

Com.

And also as always tell your friends about us and review us.

It helps us grow and gives us great algorithm magic.

Whatever.

Yeah.

Whatever it is.

Which we apparently have to care about because our entire lives are run by robots now.

It's true.

It's true.

It's fine.

We're not we're not bitter about it at all.

We love you.

Go forth and taro wildly.

Have a great week.

We love you so much.

Reviews

I loved this! An excellent primer to your amazing tarot course 💕

Very informative.. brought a question for me .. and as I journaled after I listened.. the answer came as well. Thank you for sharing this Keziah ❣️

Great interview! Thank you for sharing some of your background with Tarot. 🙏💛

This was so good. Didn’t know there was a Wildly Tarot podcast!