Love And Fear (What Is Now? Podcast)

What is the source of both love and fear? Saqib and Charles investigate this question together in an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment. Each session begins with one minute of silence and ends with a short guided practice led by Saqib based on the themes of the session. We hope you enjoy being a participant with us!

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience. We begin with one minute of silence, And then explore whatever arises. So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing. We begin with one minute of silence. And then we begin with one minute of silence. Anything you notice in particular or stands out to you? For me it was noticing myself anticipating about the bell, When will the bell go off, When will this one minute get over and this awareness. It was like a fight between this awareness, Wanting to go into the future and wanting to be in the present. One aspect was okay, Just worried that maybe the bell might go off and I might not come up with anything in this conversation. So I could sense that worry, Slight worry coming. Maybe there is nothing to discuss here today. And maybe I could not come up with anything. But then this awareness, Then this realization, Okay I just need to be here because anything that will arise will arise from this moment. That is what we are doing here, Being in the now. But the worry of the fear maybe of not, That something might not come up and there is nothing to discuss. I could sense that today. This makes me think of a constant, Maybe inevitable struggle between those two things you are describing. Like an openness to now or to nothing and a trust that something will arise out of there. And then the other side which is the fear that nothing will arise or whatever arises will be not good in some way. Or I won't be worthy of talking about today because I haven't thought of it yet. And like how those two are, There is some sort of grappling that I am seeing in my mind of those two maybe just inevitably kind of bouncing back and forth. Yeah, Yeah. You said the right word. I think trust, That just trusting in this moment. I think this is also something which we can explore because a lot of times we have this issue around trusting the moment as well. And it becomes so scary, The now becomes so scary to be in that if I am just being in this moment and then I start questioning, Okay, Why I am not doing anything or why I am not thinking about anything. Because there is so many things that are coming up for me in my life regarding my finances, My relationships, My career work. So why am I just being here? Why am I not learning or thinking about those things? So I think it's about that trust in this present moment that if I just be here, Then maybe something automatically will arise, A solution or an insight or something, An energy that will drive me to do something in this world versus the thoughts or the ideas that I already have in my mind with which I will be thinking about the future. And I think this practice, The more we are doing this practice, It's bringing more trust to this moment because we now after having so many discussions, Realize that we have been doing these episodes since a long time now, For a long time now. And we saw that how many beautiful, Wonderful things arise from this vacuum state, This nothing state. But then again, The trust goes away in which we think that, Okay, Maybe I need to have some idea in my mind already to discuss things with you. I wonder if that, This isn't fully articulated yet, But I wonder if that fear or insecurity never goes away or is just inherent in having trust in the moment for something to arise. Because I could see there being a desire for maybe reaching a point where I no longer feel insecure, Right? I'm just totally confident in this with no anxiety or none of that other voice that is attempting to gain control or fears that you might lose control. But maybe it's just a part of being in touch with this nothingness or the stuff that comes from creativity, Just kind of having to live perennially in an insecure position. And maybe that is, Like you can have trust in that or confidence in, I'm just going to continually put myself in a position of, I don't know, And be able to stay with the inevitable part of me that wants to know. And then still just continue to be in that place of, It makes me think of the Alan Watts book titled The Wisdom of Insecurity, That there's like maybe a lot of wisdom in whatever that feeling is. It also makes me, It feels very alive, But insecurity or anxiety is this powerful energy, And maybe there's a lot of life force there. I just had a vision of whatever you find in that space, Maybe the insecurity and anxiety is almost like the fuel or the motor that can bring that into creation. So there's like this treasure trove of ideas and concepts, All of the things that you've experienced in your life and maybe read or talked about or seen, And they're all there just kind of waiting to be discovered in this moment and who knows where that combination comes from or what it is. But then the anxiety or the fear of maybe not finding something or of what you find being bad or not good enough or unworthy of being shared. Somehow that's like the fuel that allows you to get it out or something like that, Because I'm feeling it as I'm speaking right now. There's some kind of message that I'm attempting to send to you, And I also feel this very powerful energy that I think could be interpreted as anxiety or something negative. But it seems like maybe the shift that has occurred in me is viewing that as more of a power source and less is something that I want to get rid of, Or that I need to run away from that it's actually this really powerful thing. That's a very interesting way to look at it. And now I'm wondering, You know, Maybe does that labeling that fear or insecurity as something negative actually, You know, Is a resistance towards that which creates more of anxiety, More of fear. So I think maybe having an acceptance for whatever is arising is again being in the present, You know, Maybe just observing that fear and noticing what that is. And I can see that how even fear and insecurities, As you were saying and mentioning about Alan Ward's idea about this, That how even that can drive us to do so many things in life. You know, To maybe this reminds me of a situation when I don't know, I read it about somewhere that there was someone, A person who lifted an entire car when, You know, A baby was underneath that car to save that baby. And I think that was the fear or the anxiety in that moment that was driving that person to giving that energy to live the lift a car, You know, Which a normal human being in a normal state would not be able to do. So maybe even that fear and anxiety has a certain kind of energy to it, Which drives us in life. So I have no real context or understanding of this word. And I've only heard it referenced a few times, And I'm interested to know if you have any context for it and if not, That's okay. But I was just reading, I just finished this book today that I probably referenced it here a few times, Be As You Are, Which kind of catalogs a bunch of conversations between students and this teacher Sri Ramana Maharshi. And several times in that book, The term was referenced Shakti. Are you familiar with that term? Yeah, Yeah. For whatever reason, I have little context for what that means, But just the, I'm just, And maybe I'm just getting a sense of the meaning of it for whatever reason or what it sounds like to me, Because I believe I read it described in there as this power that is maybe power of the universe or a power that you can kind of tap into. So for whatever reason that came to my mind in relation to that, Is that you were saying, Is that something you're familiar with? Yeah, Like to a little bit extreme, Again, Saying, You know, The energy of the universe and the power which, Which one can tap into. So yeah, I think I have the same idea about that. I wonder if that could be something that, This is maybe interesting, Or maybe not. It's making me think of, Of mental health, Or a lot of the topics that might be addressed in terms of mental health, Particularly with regard to anxiety and panic, And that just coming to my mind, And in my experiences of anxiety and what might be described as panic, Is this just overwhelming energy that is felt, That is like there's all this constriction and tension and your body is being overwhelmed with something that's like tightening up and flexing. And I will just as you were describing that and me thinking of this word, Or we can maybe even find a different word for it, But I kind of like it because I don't really have much context for it. It just, It's speaking to me in this moment of that potentially being a tapping into somehow that energy, But in that context, It's felt as way too much and is this kind of awful thing. But maybe in a different context, It's like an energy that could be utilized, Or I'm thinking of Judo, Like almost, You know, Using all the energy sort of around you, As opposed to exerting your small force and letting it course through you and then you become this sort of all powerful being because of your changed, Your shifted relationship with it. I don't know, What do you think when you hear that comparison or thought process? I think it reminds me of maybe my own conditioning around love and fear. I don't know how that too is, But the energy that you are talking about until now, You know, I had these beliefs, But now maybe you know that that is shifting with this conversation. I don't know what I thought was, Okay, There is this entire energy in this world, But then there are two kinds of energies. One is love and the other is fear. So something, You know, Maybe when there is love, Then we are doing some, You know, As we live with things as good, That we are doing some good things in the world, Maybe providing that compassion to people, Taking care of people, Saying good things, Loving in every way possible. But when that energy is fear, Then things change, You know, Then there is, I had this idea that then maybe there is this destruction that is happening in the world because someone who is having that energy, You know, A fear of anxiety will be driven, You know, But maybe driven to do harm to the world. You know, We can see people who are who are dictators or who are, You know, Military leaders or whoever that is someone who is a criminal or whoever that is, They have that energy. They are feeling that energy of fear and anxiety. But that is coming out in a destructive way. But now, You know, This conversation is making me rethink about these things. Because now I'm seeing that, Okay, Can that fear and even can that anxiety be used in a way that can be constructive, Like can be positive, Maybe something, As you said about judo, Or anything that also reminds me of, I think, How in martial arts like Aikido, There is this idea of using the energy of the opponent to to disin, You know, Disengage them disempower them, Rather than putting your energy because by putting our energy, We will raise that energy. But if we use the energy of the opponent, And you know, Then then what is happening is we are saving preserving our energy. And at the same time, We are kind of just disarming them and not harming them because when we use force, Then we hurt them. But if we just disarm them with their energy, Then that can be used in a constructive way. No offensive moves. Yeah. I think it's the similar, It's I think it's similar in judo. And it makes me think of the like, Water sort of moving around a rock. It just naturally does that or finding its way down a mountain just like naturally finding its course not exerting energy to avoid the rock, But it just naturally finds that path. Yeah, Absolutely. I think very in line with teachings of a lot of Taoism to just go with the flow. It sounds like something we're talking about is potentially the power of, And this, This maybe isn't correct in my mind yet, But I was thinking of the power of that's related to not going with the flow, Or with with friction in some way and you know, The creation of kinetic energy via friction. And as you were describing fear and love. I was kind of feeling in my body the different energies of those and to me, Fear feels like one that is much more powerful. And then is like, And maybe that leads to it being much more aggressive, And maybe can make it much louder and much more easy to see and hear in society, Because there's more kind of noise and energy to it, Versus love which to me is even just as I say the word love it just kind of feels more, It's, It's like that water, Or it's more soft and quieter, And it feels almost helpless relative to the power of fear, But then maybe at the same time it's, It's like judo or aikido or like, Or like water you know fear can come out and try to smash it. You know, Here's a fist of fear and I'm going to punch this water and of course that's not going to injure the water or punch, Punch the surface of a lake and it's not going to do anything to the lake it's just going to move naturally around the fist of fear. Yeah. And I wonder if it just makes me think of a lot of the conflict that inevitably exists between people and in the world, And how fear versus fear makes a lot of noise. But fear versus love. What does that look like? I don't know. I think this, This mind reminds me of maybe the different kinds of strategies that were leaders of people who are, You know, Bringing that change to the society news. So, One will be something like someone who is a dictator would be using the force, You know, By engaging in wars or whatever, Whatever is that. But on the other hand, Someone like, You know, A Mother Teresa or Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr who are maybe using that energy of love, Which is strong, But which is bringing that change to the world, But it is not at the same time harming or, You know, Aggressive or also reminds me of what Lounger said about water that all the water is soft, But it has the potential to erode rocks, Erode metals, Cause tsunamis, You know, So all that love being the energy of water that we can be soft, But still at the same time, We can bring those greater changes in the world, In the society of, You know, Moving mountains of bringing social change, Something what these people, World leaders have done with their love and compassion and truth. So what do you think is the relationship internally, And this might be a confusing or loaded or nonsensical question, But the relation internally between that powerful energy of fear and the maybe soft energy of love? I'm just trying to, I'm just thinking for myself how they relate to each other. I guess I'm thinking of it in different ways. Like, One version is that there's this layer kind of a fear that is on top of a layer of love and maybe that layer of love just goes endlessly. But on top of it, There's this layer of fear that is, Maybe it's thin, But it's like really thick and rough and powerful and is in some way protecting the layer below it of love, Or whatever you might call that thing. I guess I was in my mind, I was wondering, Are those two manifestations of the same energy? And maybe they still can be in that paradigm. But that was just something I was thinking internally, Like there's this powerful thing that almost feels like up here in the chest area. Although when I say that it's coming out of the same place that would probably be referred to as the heart center, Or whatever you might call that maybe the what might be thought of as the sort of the seat of love. Maybe it is the same energy. It just depends on how one is interpreting that feeling. Yeah. Yeah, No, I, I can, I can relate to that. Because I also feel that I, You know, Initially, I had this division between fear and love. But now it makes me think that maybe it is the labeling that we give to, You know, This energy and we label it in two different ways. So maybe we are not again, We are kind of judging fear itself, And not integrating it as an aspect of existence as something which is there, You know, Which is a part which is then again brings in the concept of duality that how we label things as good and bad fear and love. Light and dark, But actually it is non dual, It is just one existence which involves everything. Also makes me realize that how, Although we see that okay, There are people in the world who are causing harm to the world. And that energy is fear, Which we are labeling as fear. But if we go deeper into this and realize that, Ultimately, What they are doing is they are also doing for love. You know, Even if they are, If they seem to cause a harm to the world, Ultimately, They are doing for love, Love for something, You know, Maybe love for just themselves in which they just want to earn money for themselves, Or maybe love for the nation. You know, In which they are so patriot. They love their nation so much that they are ready to engage in wars with other nations. So, Again, That we can see sense fear that but ultimately the underlying feeling is again love, Where eventually they're doing something for the love of something. So, In terms of like interpreting and labeling I'm wondering if, And this isn't fully articulated in my mind yet, If it's all just an expression of love, How there's the potential for understanding. Maybe there isn't but that it's all coming out of the same place in terms of a feeling, Like, All of that is coming out of a feeling that might then have layers of this feeling is for my parents or this feeling is for my country or my belief system, Or whatever it is, It's all those are maybe more abstracted layers that this feeling can attach itself to. And then I have this particular channel that I'm very attached to that is the expression of my underlying feeling that fuels all of this stuff that could really mean a lot of pain and suffering for other people. But maybe it's coming out of the same feeling that those other people feel in their own form of love, But these layers of abstraction lead them to clash when they're maybe really ultimately coming out of the same source, Which is just very much so like a core feeling thing. How do you feel love right now? What's your sense of it? I think I would check that with how am I feeling in the sense that, Again, Those labels that maybe if I'm feeling happy, If I'm feeling good, Then I would say that okay I'm feeling love in my heart, You know, Because the world is so wonderful I can feel gratitude, I can feel peace, Compassion, I can feel love, I can feel love for existence. But maybe when I'm, You know, Again, If I'm labeling my feeling as something which is a low feeling in which I'm feeling sad or depressed, Or in which I'm feeling anxious or stressed, Then that I would say okay, Then this fear has taken over me, You know, Associating that with fear. So that is, I usually differentiate but then again, You know, It's making me question now that maybe that is one in the same thing. It's just how we label. Yeah, I was just thinking, Maybe you just described internally what I just attempted to describe externally, Almost like two seemingly very different factions of people inside that are sort of at war with each other, But their motivation is still coming from the same pure place. Yeah. So I was wondering there if, If love can still be existing in those moments where you might feel like a fear or an anxiety or a frustration or those kind of things. I say that because, As you were describing it, It's weird, I almost, And this has been a more recent development for me but I almost feel more love for myself in when I feel down, Or when I feel like frustrated or, Or stressed or, Or whatever it is, I notice there's been a development of, Of a sort of tenderness for myself. That is this larger me, Maybe that's the me that is sort of, That just is love. And that is that the source of everything and that kind of comes in and it's like, It's okay. And this is, Yeah, This is hard, Or I get that what you're feeling. And at the same time, I have total love for you and, And how you are no matter what any of these circumstances are in this moment. You're okay with me. And that to me is even feeling like a bigger expression almost of love than I might feel, Which can be a really powerful feeling too but what I, That I might feel when I'm, You know, Just feeling really happy to be around my wife or with my dog or enjoying going for a walk or something like that that's just more on the what you might call the positive end of the spectrum. Yeah, That's a, I think that's a very interesting observation because now I can also remember the times when I felt low, And I could feel this energy of love as well. At that time, You know, Coming up and there is this, This voice inside me telling me that things are going to be okay and this trust in the process. And have faith, And you know you are loved you are supported by by the universe. So yeah, It's so interesting that I just made this, I just had this realization that, You know, Even when we have those stress, Anxious moments we tend to focus on that as only of that, You know, Fear based feeling but now that brings my awareness to the love that I feel in those situations. So yeah, It's beautiful. And it just makes me think of caring for other people in those moments, And the potential of caring for yourself and just the same way that you would for someone else. Which I mean, I could imagine in your work, But certainly in my individual work, And with myself as well just seems like that's a pretty normal human tendency to not be able to give yourself the same love and acceptance and credit that you can to other people. And, And it may be one of those things that intellectually you can get it like yeah I know I need to accept myself or give myself full unconditional love. And that's the path to contentment or whatever you might call it. And I think it's easy to grasp intellectually but to really be able to do that is maybe something different, And that self that turns on yourself is maybe really comes up so automatically and it's hard to switch into that mode where I realize I should be giving myself acceptance and love, But it's just sort of automatically in there of, Well no you're different. You should know better, Or something like that. And also makes me realize that maybe how we can, As you said, You know, Self love in this moment by seeing that, Okay, Maybe I am feeling, You know, There are certain situations where I'm feeling fear willing wherein I'm feeling anxiety, Stress, And maybe I'm doing something which I label myself as doing something bad, You know, And I feel guilty about it. Maybe I say something to someone, Some some rude comment, Or maybe I do something which might seem to be a selfish or anything. But by understanding this that you know how fear and love are the same thing. We can maybe see that okay, I acted in this situation with fear. I sense my own love in this situation and that is the love for myself. You know, I made that rude comment because I was feeling hurt inside, And I wanted to feel good. So maybe that's why I, You know, Made that comment or did that thing that I'm guilty about. But now I can see that that was also out of love and that was love for myself and that it's okay to at times become angry to at times act in ways which we might not have missed them. So, Building self love for oneself this way and also having compassion towards others in this way in which we accept their fears and we accept their actions, Seeing that okay they are acting in this way in this moment wherein they are angry they are, You know, They are doing they are saying something which is wrong, Which seems to be hurtful to us. But we can see that ultimately the underlying feeling for them is again love because they are trying to love themselves in this moment, Or they are wanting love from us in this moment and that's why they are saying something which seems to hurt us. So, I think this conversation will really help me to now see those things in that light that everything that we experienced fear, Stress and anxiety, Hatred, We can start seeing that the core of it as love you know everything as love, Rather than leaving it as something negative. I was just thinking of the value of figuring that out for yourself, Where something you did might have come from. If you have the opportunity to address it with maybe that person that you had the conflict with after the fact, And to share that you are constantly exerting this effort to try to figure out where your own actions come from, And that you are showing love for yourself. That's just, I easily turn this back to my relationship with my wife and I just, I think of the value of making sure to say the small things like after the fact or if it feels like there's something that's still lingering, Or maybe you don't even know what it is, There's just something that is not resonating, Or there's a frustration. I remember the other night actually, Something my wife had said, And even when she said it, She added the caveat of like, I don't really believe this and this feels mean, But I'm just saying it. And then I kind of just took it, It was almost like in a joking way. I was thinking something about me. And then I noticed later on that I had actually taken it that kind of personally and I was feeling really like raw and sensitive about it and then something else from another angle sort of came and mingled with that feeling and I felt especially kind of sensitive and hurt in a way. And I could have, And I had this decision process internally of whether or not to say something, Because I also didn't want to make her feel bad for being honest with me because I are just sharing honestly what was in her mind. And so if I was to share that I would have wanted to come across like, Hey, You hurt me and don't say those things because I want it to be a space where we can say whatever comes up, Even if there's the fear that it might be hurtful to the other person that we can stay with that and talk about it and like be able to express all the stuff that's inside. But I ultimately just decided to share with her, Just kind of the way that I was saying it to you that like I noticed, Or that I know that what you said didn't represent all of how you felt. But I also noticed that I feel pretty sensitive about it and it taps into something that's sort of an insecurity of mine and that I've kind of transcended quite a bit, It's sort of this insecurity of being weird or awkward or just like the odd person that doesn't get it. Because like that they should only just be able to be normal or fit in with other people kind of just tapped into that kind of tangentially. But it felt really nice to have that feeling, Breathe with her. And I really appreciated me sharing it, Ultimately, With her too and she did feel bad about it but I think I presented it in a way where it wasn't, I wasn't trying to make her feel guilty, I just wanted to let something breathe with her, And it feels kind of like an act of love, Ultimately, Like there's something in there and I just wanted to be released and felt and seen by someone else. As you're talking about this, It makes me think that what are the things that we feel hurt with, As you say that you felt that you have that insensitivity towards what she said and you beautifully addressed that. And it makes me remember of the times when maybe when I was in a relationship, What my partner said to me, And that was hurting me, Makes me think of is that particular thing that is hurting me or I'm sensitive about, Is it the aspect of myself which I have not loved yet, Which I have not embraced yet. So maybe that is why it's hurting me because I have not loved myself for that particular aspect and I realised this, Someone made past a comment regarding my, And that was one of my past relationships, Someone made a comment regarding my physique and that how I need to be more fit and how I have not worked on myself physically. And that kind of triggered me. And I was in this situation where I felt really sensitive in that moment and it was hurting me. And then I realised, Okay, Maybe I have not loved this aspect about myself. I myself don't love this aspect of me being having a certain shape of my body. If I love that, If I can totally accept that, Then maybe when someone else says that, So I will not feel that it will not cause an emotional charge in me and I will have more acceptance towards it. Because maybe that's, It's hitting on something that there's still some internal struggle about. Does it make me think of that, Maybe that layer, Whatever you want to call it, Of love, Kind of at the core and then maybe fear on top. And maybe there's a way in which quote unquote personal growth or self awareness is like kind of gradually seeing all of that layer of fear and through seeing it clearly kind of it gradually dissolving and the love can just sort of go unobstructed through to the surface. But maybe there are little spots around this orb of love that where the fears is remaining and maybe you haven't thought of it in a long time or you don't want to look there or you deny that it exists or something like that and they're just they're just sort of still there and then something might happen where like the something someone says or does or something you see just reaches in and pokes that part that is still that other thing and then you have this like maybe powerful feeling reaction to that. Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah, Like this. I can totally see those, You know, Spots of fear that are still there inside us, Which maybe we need to send love to to accept them totally. And I think then, Yeah, Then when someone says something to us that we have kind of forgiven ourselves and loved ourselves for that, Then it will not hurt us, Even if someone says that to us. I'm curious to know what was your experience of that you know we have been talking about, We, We build upon what I experienced in that one minute. What was your experience. Yeah, And I would say that it kind of relates to what we've been talking about which at this point it just feels inevitable that whatever we talk about is going to relate to everything else, And any moment sort of relates to every other moment, Just feels that way. I'm trying to recall there was some element of a desire to stay in the silence. And so I also had this sort of, You had an internal kind of interaction with the bell of just wondering when it was going to happen. And, And I guess I had that too but in a dynamic in which I was wanting it to be farther away. And, Which was of course you know taking away from, To some degree, The experience I was having within it, Which, And which is maybe interesting because then it comes, It started from a place of a really beautiful experience which then led to the desire for it not to stop. And so it maybe starts with this like feeling of love that I just dropped into, Or whatever you want to call it. And then the like that other me that pops up and is like oh this is going to be over soon. I kind of wish it would go a little bit longer. And, And, And then I was wondering why, What makes that experience any different than what is happening now, Like what really is the difference between that silence and the interaction that we're having. So that's kind of, That's a little bit of what popped up for me. Yeah, And I think that also reminds me of my situations when I'm in situation when I'm totally in, You know, Enjoying that moment. So, Let's take for example you know maybe in a relationship where I feel that deep love with someone and I'm like, Okay, I want this, You know, Feeling of love to just be there and kind of worrying about it might get over. And you know the student relationship might get over or I'm there will be a point of time when I will not feel love for this person. And I think that what we're doing here is that there is beauty in the moment which we can experience right now. But because of our wanting to be in the future and worrying about the future we are not even experiencing the beauty that is there. And, You know, That is kind of taking us away from every experience of beauty that we can do. Similarly, I can see, I don't know if you if you can relate to that with your silence that when you are in silence. In that moment. And then when the thoughts kick, When the part kicks in, Okay, You know, I want this silence to keep going on or when it might get over. And then the beauty of that silence that you were experiencing that you came out of that and you know the worry was there. Is that how it was for you? Yeah. The birth of the worry was the very enjoyable, Loving feeling. It's interesting how they're just naturally, Like they're non-dual. They, One exists because of the other, The worry, Or I don't know if it's a worry or whatever you call it, It exists because of the really positive feeling. And it's so interesting right now to see them as no different at all. They're the same thing. And maybe they're also equally okay, Or equally valuable or equally an expression of, Quote unquote, Love. And I think that's what made me think too of, Like I said, The transition into then us talking and what's the difference? One difference is some remaining feeling of pressure that I'm putting on myself. And that elicits that maybe the fear energy that is not totally just relaxed. It's funny, For the listener, In our last episode, When we had had Ruben Lowe on, We all, You know, We said, You know, Thank you for joining and we press stop on the recording. And there was, There were these noticeable body movement shifts and almost like this exhale of release and I'm feeling that being some of the shift where we're sort of dropping into something that is much more like water, Even though it does feel like this is about as close as you and I, I think, Could get in this context. And I think over time, It will just continue to feel more and more in that flowy, Comfortable place. But you know, With the element of, Of this conversation on these things that are difficult to talk about and it being recorded and having the idea of there being an audience to listen to it and all that kind of stuff, Maybe it's just inevitable to some degree. But I'm thinking of that feeling that we had and noticed in the last session that it was kind of funny of switching out and, And Ruben said he noticed he crossed his legs and I noticed that I crossed my legs too and everyone's just kind of like leaning back and it was some sort of feeling of relief so maybe that's kind of representative of whatever that feeling was to me, Almost like I was in a, Or not almost like I was in a place of zero pressure, Zero self imposed pressure whatsoever in silence into then some feeling of that which to me feels like some activation of the that fear layer on top of just the open space. Yeah, Yeah, Absolutely. I think now I can think of that okay I was questioning why is this slight tenseness in the body. Are you doing the mind when we are having this episode, Recording this episode versus when we are in a casual conversation. I can see that okay maybe for me, It is it is kind of a pressure that what would I, You know that the listener should be engaged. And, You know, The content should keep flowing for for the listener. Rather than we maybe just relaxing on, You know, We talking about some stuff which might not be related to the listener or maybe we are just, You know, Enjoying totally enjoying this moment. And then I realized that if we can bring that enjoyment that casual is that relaxation into this conversation, Then maybe you know that will be even better for the listener to have that raw experience of ours in this episode, Wherein it's as if you know three. The listener. You and I, We three friends are having that in conversation. Yeah. I'm wondering what the listener, What you the listener is thinking about, Or are thinking about that, That experience and our maybe tension or our insecurity in relation to you listening to us or maybe feeling the pressure to give you something that is still there remains maybe some layer that is different from if it was just you and me Saka, Sitting here as it was before we started recording. It's just so it's kind of fascinating too. Because, I mean, I'm pointing to my microphone and and that is representing this body of the listeners to me. And because they're not actually here with us, And who knows who will actually be listening to this. But, You know, It's interesting to think about on the other end, When now you the listener is making up this experience and and you're taking your making of everything but we are still there with you in a way, But for you I imagine there's no pressure and I know I that's a feeling I enjoy about listening to podcasts is that I can listen to this, It's like I'm there in a conversation but there's no element of me having to provide anything at all but I can still be a part of it. Yeah, Maybe just relax you know sit in the bathtub, Drink some wine. Yeah. You know, Chill and watch the podcast. I am wondering that if I tell you the listener right now that you have to be with us in this podcast and have these discussions, Then maybe the listener can sense, But you know attention is in the body Oh, I have to be talking about these things. And this is the how we get things. But, Yeah, I would love to have some conversation and you know get to that stage when we are totally in that category board completely hundred percent. And if you have a conversation that would be fine to see how it goes. Right. I was wondering if, If the listener might be, As we were talking even just noticing on some subtle level, Like the feeling of attention shifted on them where they might have been able to feel totally anonymous, Or they might be able to feel if I'm listening to a podcast or something like that. And if there might even be some activation of energy in the body that could in some way be related to that fear layer or whatever it is, Because I imagine that happens even though you're really aware that there's no possibility for us to put you on the spot or anything, But maybe on an instinctive level there's some notice of oh they're talking about me here. And you just mentioned the drinking wine. That could be a fun experiment. Like actually doing that on one of these episodes are just like, I don't know what you call them some other some some special edition of what is now. Yeah, We can I think we can bring in such props into our experience of now. Yeah, We have a completely fun conversation around those props. It could be very interesting. That's maybe this is something for another time, It feels like we're at a kind of a good point to shift into just a practice based on today. But, So maybe for a future conversation I'd be interested to know what, What your thoughts are on sort of the, Like the pureness of what you consume, Or what goes into your body and like, I've. I think I've heard of the word sattvic as like representing pure and harmonious things that you take into your body. But the interesting nests that can be related to other sort of things that you can consume. I mean I know for me it's been interesting to drink wine and meditation in the evening and I have like music that I really enjoy turn the lights off, Have a couple glasses of wine, And then sit into a really long extended meditation it's a whole other kind of experience. But I would imagine some people would view that as like a impure form of it or something that is maybe feeding the ego or whatever it might be, It might be interesting to explore that topic as well. Yeah, I think for me as well it's like an exploration because I have not maybe figured out yet that what's pure and impure because it's more of a trial. Okay, You know, Let's see what happens maybe if I'm drinking wine or any other thing. You know, I'm taking in some substance inside me. So let's see now how that, You know, Substance is causing the change in my experience. So that is also an exploration in itself, Which that. Okay, So meditating without having anything without eating. Drinking anything. Okay, This is the experience. Okay, Now I experience this but now when I have wine or any other thing, Then know how my experience changes. So rather than you know, I would I would feel that rather than considering them as impure considering them as opportunities to test oneself that how how we feel even after consuming such things. And exploration, Maybe, You know, The experience gets even better. You never know. Yeah, It's just interesting to me. Great. So let's get into meditation. Sounds good. Okay, So now we get to the last part of this exploration of the now in which we will meditate and the listener, You can set in any posture, Your meditative posture, Whatever that is for you. If you wish, You can close your eyes or keep your eyes open. And let's experience the now through meditation. Now let's begin by bringing our awareness to our breath. Okay. And then you can bring your awareness to the feelings in your body. How do you feel in this moment? Notice any labels around that feeling. Maybe that feeling can be of love. Maybe it is fear or any other feeling. Notice if you can actually segregate and label the different feelings in your body. Maybe these different feelings have different locations in the body. And the heart behind your neck, In your head, In your lower back. Or any other part of the body. What are those different feelings? And maybe there is a feeling which is not physical, Which might not have a physical location, But it's just a state of being. Something like I feel happy or I feel sad. What differentiates these feelings? Notice that. Does the feeling have a texture? Does it have a different experience? Does it affect your body in a different way? Does these feelings have different densities maybe? What is it that there is even a feeling attached to the feeling itself? Maybe when you think about something as love, Then there's a feeling to that as well. Maybe a feeling of happiness. Maybe a feeling of anxiety when we talk about fear. Are these different feelings just labels, Just thoughts, Just judgments about creating those boundaries, Segregating those feelings and giving them names and labels? Then gradually in your own time, You can come out of the meditation. Thanks for that. My pleasure. How was your experience on that meditation? It was interesting. The feeling I was exploring was hot because I noticed a wave of heat come upon me and the sensation of sweat on my forehead, Just moisture. Of course, All those are verbal labels for my feelings. I was just sitting for a while with all of the constellation of what hot means or means to me in this moment. It was really interesting. There was some part of it that it was almost like there was a coolness or cold inside of the hot, Which was just something to notice. How about for you? Yeah, I think today the guidance came from my own experience, My own feelings in the body and the insight was for me today that even there is a feeling attached to the feeling itself, The label itself. Like for example, When you say hot, What do I feel about hot? You know, Maybe there is a sense of warmth. Maybe I can see it as something which is painful because if there is too much heat on my head. So I think there is a feeling to the feeling as well. That was a discovery today. It's just beautiful, Which is a beautiful thing about just experiencing the now. Yeah. And being open to receiving whatever it has and I guess tolerating the, Or even inviting the insecurity inherent in that finding process. Right. Well, This is always so fun for me and I feel like I continually gain more clarity about myself through having these explorations with you. So thanks and thanks to the listener for being here with us and I look forward to next time. Thank you so much. I loved our exploration today. See you next time. Thank you for joining us in the what is now experience. We hope that you liked the episode. If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation, Then you can share those ideas through your comments. We would love to know. Stay tuned for the next episode. Namaste.