Objectifying The Tao (What Is Now? Podcast)

Lao-Tzu said, "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." Here, we explore the ways in which we try to "tell the Tao," and how we might get closer to simply being "It." Each of these sessions begins with one minute of silence followed by an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment and finishes with a short guided meditation based on the themes of the session.

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

What was your experience?

It's funny right now to notice my gut reaction of good is,

But that's totally just a filler word that comes up immediately in response to that question.

How was your experience?

Good,

Dot dot dot.

Similar to how are you good.

Yeah,

Right.

So I noticed that was my initial reaction.

And then after that,

There's just some silence,

And maybe an inability to articulate the experience.

Something that was coming up for me was like a back and forth between what I'm calling the ego and the unconscious.

Before the call started,

Saqib and I were talking about,

I'm reading some Carl Jung stuff and talking about this notion of the ego as part of the psyche and the unconscious as part of the psyche and then like the whole psychic self.

So within that two minute period,

It was felt almost like I was going back and forth between ego,

Which to me feels very head based,

And is like working on problems.

It's pretty linear,

And is more connected to the general,

Or maybe habitual sense of who I am throughout the day.

And then unconscious is something that's that feels a lot more vast and also drops down sort of within my body,

The rest of my body,

And is something that's really unpredictable.

And maybe that's a good word for it.

Like,

If I'm in the space of quote unquote unconscious,

It feels like it's somewhere where I inevitably don't know what's going to come up.

And then something comes up,

And then maybe my ego,

Quote unquote attaches to it,

And starts to sort of narrative train of thought about that thing.

And then I can notice that and drop back into a space of unknowing and unpredictability and so kind of like that back and forth.

So is it like,

Would you say that it would be it would be ego will be synonymous to thinking and unconscious would be,

You know,

Synonymous to feeling maybe thinking and feeling?

Maybe so.

There's a way I've thought about that too and that there might just there might also be different layers of thinking,

Like a thinking that's more ego based.

Okay.

Which to me,

Signifies a sort of self consciousness.

Like,

What am I going to talk about after this minute is over,

Or putting together stuff in some sort of instrumental way like I'm doing this in order to do this thing,

Which feels maybe more in the self conscious realm of thinking and that to me is associated with what I would call the ego.

Okay,

I wonder if there's also other layers of thinking that are not self conscious,

But are just sort of playing with what's happening right now.

More exploratory.

If that makes sense.

For example,

Let's say,

You know,

Something happened in the experience and you ask this question,

What is this?

So maybe that is a non ego based thought?

I would say,

If that question is not attached to finding a particular type of answer.

Okay,

I think if the questions asked in a way in which there's some attachment to like finding out a particular answer,

Or maybe even confirming an answer that I'm hoping to find,

Then that might be more ego based.

And another one that's more like,

What is this and I'm not attached to a any particular answer or be even finding an answer.

But it's just like more of a curious.

So I'm thinking more of like a scientist,

Whereas the first one would be a pretty biased scientist which would,

Which would block the ability to actually conduct good science,

But this other one is just like here's the phenomena,

And I don't have any stake in the game of it,

Of what the results are.

But let's just look at it as closely as we can and find the best instruments to try to experiment with it.

I'm not emotionally impacted by the results.

And I don't want it to turn out any particular way,

But I just want to see it as clearly as I can.

Basically,

Basically,

What you're saying is removing the bias from the answer,

Like any sort of expectation or any sort of bias,

Wanting the answer to be in a specific way.

So what I'm thinking is,

Doesn't that the question arises that,

Let's say for example,

When you ask this question,

Okay,

What is this,

You know,

And there is this open curiosity towards it,

Which doesn't have any bias.

So would that also involve feeling in that case or only like thinking about it is something which will be,

You know,

Non ego based.

What I can sense is maybe,

You know,

When we drop into non ego,

You know,

Non ego based thinking as you're saying,

That might also involve certain sense of certain level of feeling that okay,

What is happening?

And what is when we are asking this question,

What is happening or what is this?

So we are also kind of like,

Rather than thinking about it,

Which which would create a bias,

You know,

Or,

You know,

Which will come from information that we already have,

Kind of rationalizing it may be dropping into feeling can give a more honest answer.

What do you think about this thing called feel the burden?

Yeah,

I like that it's,

It's sort of creating this evolving image in my mind of,

Of me or the mind as like a researcher.

And so to go into the experimental paradigm or into the lab,

I have to drop what I'm thinking,

And sort of open into quote unquote feeling.

I don't know how it is that I do that,

But I do that somehow.

It's like,

Okay,

Let go of thinking and now I'm going to switch into feeling mode,

I'm doing something.

So that to me,

It feels like I'm utilizing some sort of instrument that is looking at phenomena,

And then it's filtered through whatever instrument that I have,

And then I,

You know,

Take some notes,

And then I'm back sort of into the thinking mind about that phenomena.

It's just a way of symbolizing it.

But then I can,

So I have that and then I might want to go back in and drop into feeling.

And then the feeling is filtered again through my thinking mind,

It can continue to create this data.

And I wonder if the sort of non ego,

Or less ego based thinking mind is also very aware of the limitations of my instruments.

Because it's,

I really don't know what this phenomena is.

I can try to measure it and symbolize it.

But what is feeling like I don't,

I don't know,

But I can try to describe it.

And maybe my instruments can get better and better,

Like I can develop more and more of an inability to tap into feeling or the unconscious.

But it will also,

It will always be a pretty crude representation of what that stuff is for me to try to put it into words or concepts,

Or to communicate it to someone else.

Like I'm thinking of the,

That the line from the Tao,

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

And,

But I can keep trying to tell about the Tao,

And maybe I can keep getting closer to it in some way,

But I can never actually tell the Tao or speak of the Tao.

Yeah.

That also put a question to my mind that,

You know,

As you said,

The feeling part might also have some filters.

So maybe there is a difference between also feeling and being is just maybe the state of being because what I can sense is,

You know,

This idea of wanting to feel something also can,

Can have a bias in the sense that okay,

Maybe I'm wanting to feel certain,

You know,

Energies or emotions,

Which,

You know,

Let's say wanting to feel happy,

Let's say and I'm kind of my mind is biased to feel happiness,

But also there is this deep involvement in the sense that I'm not feeling happy.

So deep involvement with the bias in the mind.

And any any form of thought,

I you know,

Any form of thought also would create some filter.

So when when we say some anything related to I you know that okay,

As you mentioned,

Like my instrument or,

You know,

My instrument should get better,

Then there is also this ego of I that is coming in,

In that you know,

Okay,

That this is my instrument or that this is my mind,

Then maybe there is there is something which is to have a more pure experience,

There is something which is beyond thinking and feeling.

No,

Just maybe the state of being.

Being would be something that you wouldn't even be able to observe,

Because it's also within you and behind you.

Like when you're looking through the microscope,

It's,

It's not only there,

It's everywhere.

It's kind of not even worth at that point investigating.

What do you think of that?

That's really interesting to me.

I wonder if feeling and thinking are filters on different levels,

Or if they're kind of on the same playing field.

That was interesting to me too.

And you said,

Feeling maybe also has a bias.

Because that's like,

Like what I said,

Okay,

I'm going to go into feeling now.

And so that limits me in terms of what I can experience,

Because I'm sort of intentionally doing something.

So I have some bias.

Yeah,

Because the question arises that what is feeling then when you're when I'm when I'm saying that,

Okay,

Let's feel.

So what am I doing,

You know,

For feeling?

So,

What are you doing?

Do you think?

Maybe I'm kind of sensing for some energy in my body,

Then but but then again,

That is a bias,

You know,

That okay,

For feeling is sensing of energy,

This is a bias,

Not created by us that writing is thinking of energy,

But maybe it is something more than that,

You know,

Maybe it also has other aspects of it.

So,

Then feeling now,

For me,

Feeling in the purest form would be maybe just being,

You know,

So.

So that brings in the question that,

Again,

Feel is feeling,

Actually the state of being or feeling is something which has bias and being something separate,

You know,

That is what I'm still trying to figure out.

And then there's the tricky part implied there,

Because you're saying I'm still trying to figure it out,

Which implies that you get to figure it out,

Which is something separate.

Maybe that's the that's the limited extent of the ego mind reaches that point inevitably again and again.

Yeah,

Just some inherent,

Frustrated peak of exploration that can't be transcended,

Because there's the implied,

What Sri Ramana Maharshi called the root thought,

Or like the root assumption of a me that is separate from this thing.

And if I could only,

I'm still trying to figure it out,

But that it there's still the implied distance between me and that thing which is maybe what's keeping me from understanding,

Quote unquote it because even it implies there's some subject object separation.

Yeah,

And it which makes,

I'm sure we've talked about Zen koans before in these meetings,

Which to me that's kind of,

It seems to me like the point or at least part of the point of a Zen Koan is to get you outside of this framework of thinking that that implies a subject and an object.

And that just kind of short circuits the ego into a spontaneous feeling of being,

You just get it like,

You know,

Then of course you probably go back into your thinking mind ego based way of seeing the world but you might now have some little like memory of that experience that is beyond the reach of separate eye to grasp,

And then maybe you maintain that momentum through more Koan practice or meditation practice and then just like kind of get it over time.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

What,

What I also the thing that I found find interesting is you're talking about,

You know,

This short circuiting and,

You know,

Kind of giving up this illusion of a separate self,

Which is separate from,

You know,

The observer and the observed being separate.

But it also reminds me of,

I think this is,

You know,

Maybe we have discussed this previously or you added it somewhere about Nagarjuna and and his disciples and they were like,

I think Alan Watts talked about it that,

You know,

They were meditating and they got into that state of void.

So that state of void was kind of just giving up everything and just being,

You know,

What we are talking about that state of being,

But then what Nagarjuna said was that this state of void,

This state of being is also a concept is also an idea,

You know,

That there is to,

To,

To for reaching enlightenment or for being enlightened,

You know,

You have to give up this everything thinking feeling and everything and just be,

But then this being is also a thought,

You know,

We again have this idea that enlightenment is reached through being.

So it's important to void the void.

It's important to even go beyond that and give up this concept.

Also,

This idea also that,

You know,

That there is something called being or there is,

You know,

Because again,

That is also a concept that we are right.

Do you think these,

Do you think that,

So what we're talking about being for the void,

Or whatever it might be,

And then concepts,

So like you have an experience of the void or void,

And then you inevitably have some grasping to that,

Which then takes it and makes it something that you think takes it and makes it something that it isn't.

Yeah.

Do you think that these are mutually exclusive,

Or can they coexist these,

These two things if that makes sense,

Because it almost sounds like,

You know,

If you're,

If you're using concepts or if you're just talking about stuff in this way,

It's almost like you're failing,

Or you're,

You're missing the point,

Or Yeah.

Do you think that inevitably is the case?

Or is there a way of talking about these things,

Or thinking of concepts,

Having concepts that doesn't deny,

Or isn't mutually exclusive with whatever the quote unquote,

Like real thing?

Yeah,

I feel it's like,

You know,

It's like,

I think we discussed this before,

It's like,

This talking is like the board that takes us to the shore,

Which takes us to the shore of experience of all this talking about and you know,

All this saying that,

Okay,

This is this void this being in void the void.

But I think it kind of helps us to,

Let's say experience.

Again,

This is a concept,

But like,

If we can go get close to talking about that,

Then the experience of the void,

That maybe,

You know,

The idea is sitting in a meditation,

Getting to that state of void,

And we are getting to that state of void,

Because we talked about it,

Because we learned that,

You know,

So this talking is helping us in our experience part.

And then how I can see that,

You know,

Okay,

And I'm just now looking back at my experiences with meditation.

And I can totally relate to what Nargarjuna said about voiding the void,

Because for me,

That void experience is so blissful,

You know,

It was like,

And I think many people who practice meditation,

The listener who is who practices you who practices,

It would have had those experiences in meditation,

Where you experience a certain kind of bliss,

You know,

And then,

And there is this good feeling about it.

And you know,

We don't want to come out of the meditation and come into the body.

And it's like we are it's having like,

Kind of having an out of body experience.

It's so blissful.

And we feel okay,

This maybe this is the state of enlightenment,

Or this is the state of that awakening.

But then again,

What Nargarjuna meant was that this bliss is also an attachment,

This bliss is also an idea,

You know,

That idea that we are holding.

So not even being attached to that,

And voiding that as well,

You know,

Is that experience.

So the,

The good thing about talking about this is that during the meditation,

Then during the experience,

It,

It takes me deeper and deeper into that.

Of maybe just kind of,

I think,

I think there will be no absolute point where,

You know,

We don't experience anything.

But the more we understand it,

The more we go deeper into our experiencing of voiding the void and then voiding that void and then voiding that void.

So I thought of it this way before,

Again,

It makes me think of science,

Like there's,

At least in my understanding,

There's,

There's no actual proving of anything,

But you're really,

You're kind of continually wiping away untruth,

Like you're just getting closer and closer to sort of revealing truths by,

By finding things that are not,

That have been shown to not be accurate or true,

But you can never,

Like have it,

You can never have capital T truth,

But you can continually just sort of see,

Well,

It's not that it's not this,

It's not this.

And by doing that,

You're kind of,

You're becoming more intimate with it,

But you can never actually have it as something separate to say,

This is what truth is.

Also,

Just before I forget,

Have you heard of,

You were mentioning,

Like the experience of bliss and meditation and the,

The,

The,

Maybe the attachment that we might have to that.

Have you ever heard or come across Freud's words on the meditative state or the blissful state?

No.

He,

I think he referred to it as the oceanic feeling,

Or someone else wrote it that way in a letter to him maybe.

And his interpretation was that it was a repression,

Or it was a,

Like a desire,

Sort of a childish desire to,

To reenter the womb,

And to go back into that sort of cared for states inside a mother's womb.

So and I believe to him,

It was seen as sort of defense mechanism of sorts,

Like the desire to have is to go back to a state where I'm a child and I'm cared for.

Just kind of interesting,

Just maybe think of that attachment to that state potentially maybe something similar.

Hmm.

Yeah,

It's interesting.

But I'm thinking that what might be the kind of negative effects of that,

You know,

That that attachment.

Because not doing that,

Or not experiencing that also,

Or saying,

You know,

Maybe what Freud thought about that as something maybe of a coping mechanism,

Or,

You know,

In the,

In the negative sense,

Would be kind of denying that experience to ourselves,

Which we can have,

You know,

Of bliss.

You know,

People experience bliss and joy in the world in relationships through through sharing love or whatever that is.

But I think what how I see it,

Maybe as a as a self love so I would not judge it because I see it as a self love practice to enjoy that bliss just by by yourself,

And not,

You know,

Being dependent on someone else.

That it's just a feeling that you can have now versus it being maybe a longing to return to a certain state.

It's like actually a feeling of love and bliss that you can just find and feel.

Yeah,

Right now in this moment.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know,

You mentioned just mentioned about science and there is this,

Like interesting thought in my mind which I wanted to discuss with you.

And that just popped up in my mind for a long time that how science,

You know how science approaches things and what I just realized was that science is kind of,

You know,

It seems to be a,

It seems to be the way science is practiced today seems to be a very slow process to me.

Because what's happening is that it is kind of a denial of a subjective experience which is which is there.

And it's,

It's wanting to prove things now proving things through instruments which we create ourselves might take centuries and you know that we that is slow process so for example,

Let's say,

You know,

We,

We have this experience of initially psychology the field of psychology and you know it was more of psychiatry,

Where it was thought that we are just born in flesh,

And you know,

The consciousness aspect of it was not.

You know considered and when when before,

Let's say you know in that 18th century or 19th century,

When someone would have this experience of mental illness,

They would,

They would look into the brain for for the solution,

You know,

They would,

They would test the brain because that was something which was physical that was something which was objective.

But then the practice of psychology psychiatry evolved because they saw Okay,

It is not just about the brain there is something beyond that which Freud talked about consciousness.

So it took time for science to reach there to understand okay there is beyond something the physical world as well.

You know,

Then there were things that were discovered beyond the physical world which,

Which is quantum physics,

You know,

Which we cannot see with our eyes,

Which is in.

The spectrum of light which is beyond the physical visible spectrum you know infrared ultraviolet.

So,

What I what I feel about science is that it's it's kind of gradually evolving,

But people have those deep experiences which we have till now which science has not even able to discover yet,

You know,

Through their instruments which is for example this experience of bliss that I'm talking about.

So science would today say this,

We don't believe in this or this is not true,

Because we don't cannot prove it in the laboratory objectively,

But it is true in the experience of millions of people you know experiences like auto body experiences on your death experiences.

It's just that we haven't developed the capability yet.

You know the instruments yet which can measure that,

And it might take like centuries to get there.

Right.

I mean,

And it,

Lisa does seem like there's some research that's trending in that direction and like the research of psychedelics and all these kind of things that I know at least for myself.

I've moved away from an interest in research,

And maybe it's just through my doctoral training and just not really enjoying that whole side of things and you're having to take,

Especially maybe in the world of a meditation or quote unquote mindfulness or bliss or happiness or these things that are so subjective and feeling based and having to take these sorts of experiences and give them such limited definitions and yeah.

So then,

You know,

You're limited by the way that you define them the way that you measure them,

The way that you recruit certain types of people to research them and like all these things and to me,

It just becomes less interesting to research it and I wonder what it even serves sometimes,

Because sort of the person on the other side of it.

You can tell them about it,

But does it even.

I feel like,

At least for me,

And maybe for you too,

It seems to be this is the way that we are operating in the world.

My hope is just to communicate about this stuff in a pretty subjective,

But very direct way that hopefully can just give the person I'm interacting with some sense of the experience,

Which,

Which they can just feel in themselves in totality without having to like,

Understand all of the research behind it,

Because it's all kind of unreal,

In a way like all of this,

Like the ways that we conceptualize things and there's just something to be felt,

And like when you feel it,

Then you don't need any other proof.

It's just there and then you,

And I think even like in with regard to certain practices like maybe you don't need any of that stuff if you have a sense of what it is you know how to,

If you just sit in silence for long enough like you know how to build it,

And you know how to access it and you know the answers.

If only you can go internally to find them,

And maybe that's what research can do is it can give you some sort of motivation to do that,

Or some proof,

But it might all be unnecessary to me and even like more confusing,

Because it might send you off on some goose chase like to get something and,

Or maybe confirm in your mind that there's something out there for me to get.

If only I can keep reading these different things and keep trying these different practices and maybe it's all just here.

But it takes a certain like opening to get there.

Have you ever heard of the,

Or maybe I mentioned this before.

I also don't know if I pronounced the name right but Nasruddin,

Familiar with that?

Yeah,

Character.

Yeah,

My friend introduced me to this to like the sort of the stories of Nasruddin.

How do you say?

Nasruddin.

Nasruddin.

And so have you,

Are you familiar with the story of,

And tell me if I've mentioned this before because I've shared it many times and I think about it often but the story of him and the lamp post.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

There's also talk of yours on that right?

Yeah,

There is.

I have listened to that,

It's very interesting but I want to know it again from you and for the listeners also.

Sure.

And so,

Like,

I think of it often it with relation to research for whatever reason and science.

And so there's the story of this character Nasruddin,

And he has lost his keys to his house.

And so he's on the street somewhere on the sidewalk and there's a lamp post and some grass and the bushes and so he's there he's looking for his keys in this particular spot and he's like,

Looking around,

And a friend of his or someone who knows him walks by and recognizes that it's him and comes over and says,

Hey,

What's going on,

What are you doing here?

And Nasruddin says,

I'm looking for my keys.

And so the friends like okay,

I'll help you look for them.

Let's look around.

So they keep looking in the same spot under the light,

And they're looking for a while and eventually the friend is like,

Where did you lose them?

Where was the last time you remembered having them?

He's like,

Oh,

I lost them back at the house.

And so the friends like,

Why are we looking here?

And he's because the lights better here.

And that to me,

So that's the story.

And that to me symbolizes my thoughts on what we're talking about in terms of science,

Like we were limited by the lamp and the light where it's shining.

And maybe it's inevitably like kind of far away from the house where we we know where the keys are,

They're back there.

And maybe the door is even already open.

But it's takes us having to trust ourselves and not depend on the light that is down the street to find these answers that and I wonder maybe if the light just kind of stays off there,

Because you can't turn the void quote unquote into the concept of the void that is back at the lamp and the light post and it's away from the house.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it also reminds me of,

You know,

What Lao Tzu said,

As you said that the,

The Dow,

That can be told it's not the eternal Dow,

Because,

You know,

What the way mainstream science functions today is kind of trying to define the Dow,

You know,

And objectifying the Dow,

Whereas that always just the experience that millions and billions of people are having,

But science is talking about object kind of testing them in the laboratory,

Which is kind of like defining the Dow,

Which,

You know,

Lao Tzu advised against.

It will kill the purpose of that.

Yeah,

It is that I like that phrase objectifying the Dow,

I think that might be a good title for the episode.

Yeah,

That's good.

That's good.

Yeah,

Yeah.

What do you think about shifting into some practice?

Sure,

Sure.

Let's see what comes up.

Okay,

So to the listener,

We enter now into the last segment of our session today.

And you can,

If you want,

You can meditate with us and you can get into your posture,

Whatever that is for you.

And if you wish,

You can also close your eyes.

And we can begin by maybe bringing our awareness to our breath.

And observing the flow of the breath.

The journey of the breath in and out of the body.

Okay.

And now,

Think of an experience that you had that might be special to you.

That experience might have been in meditation,

Or any mystical experience,

Or any spiritual experience,

Or any other experience that maybe was different to you and gave you a sense of bliss,

Peace,

Joy.

Just think about that experience and bring it into your present moment.

And then in your mind's eye,

Visualize that there is a friend of yours in front of you.

And you want to tell about this experience to your friend.

What will you say about this experience?

How will you explain this experience to your friend?

You can have that imaginary conversation in your mind right now.

Okay.

Now notice the difference between having that experience actually when you had it,

And the explanation of that experience in words.

Notice the difference between the two.

And then gradually,

You can bring your awareness back to your body.

And in your own time,

You can come out of the meditation.

That was cool.

Is that a framework you've done before?

Did it just come to you?

It just came to me.

I like that.

That's cool too,

Because that comes from your unconscious,

And then you turn it into something conceptual to communicate it.

And then I have my own kind of unconscious experience of it.

And then I think about it.

I can share it back to you.

What was your experience of it?

It was making me think of sometimes when I wanted to share with others about these kinds of experiences,

And then noticing how it's just maybe impossible.

And I kind of have over time,

Sometimes I will try in detail,

But mostly I'll just kind of let go of trying to communicate it and then maybe explore the underlying motivation for communicating,

Which is probably just like wanting to connect with the other person.

And that just becomes a much more simplified message.

It might even just totally shift from me sharing about it into just,

Hey,

How you doing?

Or a firm person,

Just like a pat on the shoulder or something,

Which maybe gets me the same,

Or maybe a much more pure form of kind of what I was after in the first place.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

It reminded me of something similar.

It reminded me of my first meditation experience in which I experienced that bliss that I was talking about.

It was kind of an out of body experience.

And I remembered trying to explain it to my friends and family.

And I was just met with disappointment because they were like,

This is this crazy person talking about,

I don't know what spiritual stuff,

Which we don't understand.

And it was actually frustrating.

So,

Yeah,

It was interesting to notice that difference.

Yeah.

One way I was attempting to explain it in my mind was as if I had pillows strapped to my body that were heated,

Just a comfortable heat also.

And they had massage machines inside.

So that was like my explanation of the feeling.

Nice.

You explained it quite well,

Actually.

Yeah.

I remember trying to explain just like,

You know,

That I was floating in the room and these kind of things.

And they were like,

This person is mad,

You know,

He's gone crazy.

Sounds good.

Great.

Yes.

And thank you so much.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And I'll see you next time.

See you.

Namaste.

Reviews

I appreciate both of you, your openness, enthusiasm and friendship! As. This sweet and fascinating episode says, words fail! But the messsge comes through 🙏🫶🏼💗💐

Nice mix of discussing science, it's checks and balances vs the subjective experience of an individual as valid as science is. My son has pervasive mental illness and my grandson age 9 is seeing ghosts. I don't question their realities but rather I open my curiosity to help validate what's feels real to them as long as there is no self harm. I am reading Radical Wholeness by Philip Shepherd. I would be interested in a discussion from you two on his cutting through preconceived notions of self and what science seems to want to hold onto at all costs. Thank you for your time and effort.