Control & Letting Go (Guest Episode W/ Reuben Lowe)

Saqib & Charles are joined by Reuben Lowe for a special guest exploration. Each session begins with one minute of silence, followed by an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment. In this session, the dynamic of control and letting go became a central theme and played out in an interesting way between Reuben and the hosts. And to finish, Reuben provides a short guided meditation based on the themes of the session. We hope you enjoy!

Transcript

Hey there,

It's Charles.

I just have two quick notes before this session.

So first of all,

Today we have another fellow traveler joining us for another guest episode.

Ruben Lowe was kind enough to be here with us.

Some of you may recognize him from Insight Timer as a well-known meditation teacher.

And he's also founded the digital platform Mindful Creation,

As well as the nonprofit for young people called Act On It.

He specializes in mindfulness-based therapies and is passionate about empowering others to be a part of ongoing change in the world.

And I think you'll really enjoy his presence here with us.

It's a pretty powerful presence,

I'd say.

And then note number two,

We have a new intro,

Which I'm really excited about and that you'll hear in a moment.

The musical artist Cameron collaborated with us to create a musical introduction to the what is now experience.

And this was inspired by the idea of almost like an artificial intelligence slash human that is strapping us in to take flight into silence first and then into whatever comes up in the present moment together.

So all of that being said,

Thank you for being here.

And let's dive in with the new intro.

We begin with one minute of silence and then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

We begin with one minute of silence.

So Ruben,

How was your experience of silence?

Interesting and quite humorous.

So a couple of things came up for me.

I was on Clubhouse yesterday.

And which is a live audio event that's going to kind of take off.

It's what it already has.

But anyway.

And you know,

There's a lot of talk and there's a lot of quotes.

There's a lot of suggestions about letting go.

And that's the first thing that just came up into my mind,

Because somebody just said it in a way.

We need to hear things sometimes even exactly the same in order for it to just kind of click and go in to have an impact either subtly or quite significantly in our lives.

And it was just the way this person just said,

Hey,

So practice letting go,

Letting go and saying it.

It was this affirmation kind of room.

And they were like,

You know,

When things happen that you cling on to,

Let go,

Let go,

Let go.

And so the first part of that two minutes that we had was about that and trusting in the universe.

And I'm noticing that it's not just consciously am I trusting in the universe,

But it's also playing out unconsciously as well,

Which is which is kind of nice.

And I'm not I don't want to give the impression that I've got it wrapped and life's amazing and I'm just letting go of stuff all the time.

Definitely not.

I'm a human being as well.

And yeah,

I get caught up in all sorts of stuff anyway.

So that was the first part.

Now,

The second part was really funny is that.

My flatmate is making a smoothie,

Right?

Like like halfway through that period of silence,

My mind goes,

Oh,

They record they're obviously recording this.

I wonder if they'll hear it and maybe it won't pick it up,

Et cetera,

Et cetera.

And and for some reason,

My flatmate always does it for probably two or three times longer than I would.

So I'm just noticing my mind going,

Oh,

Yeah,

You always,

You know,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And then I was like,

Maybe just maybe.

Because I know he's going to do it for a long amount of time.

Maybe the smoothie maker will stop.

He'll turn it off,

You know,

Around the time when we hear the bell.

And it did.

You manifested that.

Yeah.

And so the actually the first part of that,

I was like,

This is nice to get grounded and connected.

But then I was like,

Well,

We're going to be,

You know,

Talking about something.

I wonder what.

And then that whole thing about letting go.

And I know it's cliche.

I know it's cliche.

We hear it so much.

Let go of your thoughts.

Let go of this.

Let go of that.

But just the way it was said in this particular affirmation.

It really kind of like stood out to me.

And I would have I would have understood this.

I think experientially it stood out to me when I heard it about what that is and how we can do it and keep affirming it to ourselves,

Even when we kind of notice ourselves attaching and clinging on and resisting and that it is about putting trust in the universe.

And that's kind of where it went until the smoothie maker started.

Yeah.

I'm just struck by there's such a cool part of this process for me that I'm noticing.

Well,

First of all.

So we've also had we recently had our first guest episode was a couple of times ago.

And I was noticing how much like more electrified I feel in terms of energy versus what it's just SAKUPA myself,

Which is a much more kind of subdued energy.

So maybe there's also some element of of like of nerves,

Wanting to make sure that you enjoy your time here and that like everything goes well together.

But there's that.

And then there's also maybe just so much already with just SAKUPA myself.

There's the feels like endless the possibility of wherever a conversation could go and you just have no idea where it's going to go.

And so then,

You know,

Add you into it and then it's it's multiplied.

And I was as you were just talking about those two different things,

I was just noticing I had so many different thoughts for myself,

Like,

Oh,

Yeah,

That's so interesting.

And I've thought about it in this way before and just noticing how that came out of a totally pregnant silence,

Like up until that point where I had no idea what you were about to say.

And now we're we're off in that direction.

So I was just now that's now there's too much.

Right now there's too much.

So we have to pick a direction to go.

And a cool thing,

Too,

Is that we can even sort of notice that movement and then at any point in time,

Kind of reset altogether and come back to sort of openness to whatever else arises as a sort of cool wavelength kind of of what this is like.

But just one thing that I was thinking in my mind was how potentially those two,

They were just relating to me in my mind,

The letting go element and then the you're flatmate making a smoothie and the sound of the smoothie and maybe an internal desire for it to stop at that particular time.

But then maybe also some elements of like a deep,

Genuine sort of letting go of attachment to that.

I have this made me think of this hypothesis that I've had in my mind,

Which I'm not really attached to.

And I don't know if there's really anything to it.

But in terms of maybe having something to go to or like maybe going to a picnic or something like that where you want nice weather and the amount potentially that you're not actually attached to that outcome being that way might in some way universally lead to this sort of beautiful day or experience.

Or maybe it just turns out that it's raining and it's also beautiful for its own particular character.

But I was in my mind,

I was just connecting those two.

I wonder what that experience was like for you if you felt like a kind of wish for that sound to stop or if kind of if you notice that and then kind of let go of that at the same time.

Yeah.

So thank you.

Yeah.

This is great.

And I love I love what you've done here because you're I guess you guys this is this is kind of what you do.

But you're actually this is really what is now.

Right.

And we're actually talking about the process of what we notice and our response to it.

And you know,

And being really transparent about exactly what's playing out for us.

And there's there's a depth of communication there that's phenomenal.

I really like that with with the work I do at the clinic.

But that's I get sidetracked if I start to talk about that.

But yes,

That's exactly what happened,

Charles.

Like I am.

Yeah,

I was just noticing.

And that's the beautiful thing about being human.

It's kind of like,

You know,

We oscillate in and out.

So yeah,

There was a part of me just for maybe two or three seconds.

I was I was fused with that thought.

I was like,

Oh,

There it goes again.

You know,

How loud is it?

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Et cetera.

And then I'm like,

Actually,

Let's step back from this.

And this is what's playing out now.

And maybe I could even use this,

You know,

And if I wasn't to use this,

Why wouldn't I use this?

You know,

It's like,

Why not?

So yeah,

Definitely I was oscillating in and out of that.

So there was an element of the.

Yeah,

The fact that there's there's a there's a touch of a niggle there about it,

Because sometimes it's not been the first time,

You know,

I do a lot of recording and things like that,

You know,

And it's just on for a long time.

And it's the same with other kind of,

You know,

Noises.

You know what it's like when you're recording with audio and stuff,

Ironically,

As well.

Can you hear that?

I'm going off just just the universe is just kind of like saying,

Yeah.

So yes,

I kind of oscillated in and out of that.

And then I was I was clinging on to to that for a yeah,

Yeah,

A few seconds,

Maybe.

And then and then just noticed what was going on.

And then and then came back and was like,

It doesn't matter.

Let go.

It's like.

Yeah,

And actually let go,

Which so,

You know,

One of what it's about,

And then it's all about that with part two as well.

Yeah.

And funny how that sound just came in,

Too,

As you were talking.

During our last session,

I got a call in the midst of it.

And I was so sure that I had put my my phone on airplane mode before.

But the call happened in a way that it actually sort of came into my zoom and switched it out of the screen.

And then I had to sort of shift into fixing mode.

But then kind of like the way you were describing that sound in those in that period of silence,

Like,

Well,

It's almost like there's some part of my mind that identified that as,

OK,

This is outside of the practice and I need to switch out of this mode and address this.

And then I'll move back into being in the new quote unquote now.

But I can then notice that,

Too,

And be like,

Oh,

This is interesting.

What's it like when a phone call interrupts me?

What makes that any different than anything else?

Totally.

Totally.

Yeah,

Totally.

And that's and that's it,

Right?

The transition out of clinging clinging onto,

Whether it's for a few seconds or a few minutes,

Right?

And then coming back gently in that place of.

In that place of it's OK and holding ourselves lightly and kindly,

It's not.

The reaction within is,

You know,

I'm talking about like when I you know,

When I heard the smoothie,

It's not like it was a really big niggle.

You know,

I'm using the word niggle to describe that experience.

Whereas previous,

You know,

Previously it would have been so with the work that I've been doing,

You know,

With meditation and stuff like that,

It's just they're subtle.

They're just subtle,

Kind of like interesting mental events that kind of arise.

And then we come back again and and reconnect,

You know.

I think it's all about what we give importance to.

You know,

It's so funny because I was so it's similar,

But but it's different.

So this experience was that it was not external.

And in this moment I was I took off my slippers and just placed my feet on the ground.

And I was thinking I was feeling good about that.

And I was thinking that why am I feeling good about this?

You know,

What is this thing that placing feet on the ground makes you feel good about?

What is that thing?

And then I was thinking that why am I thinking about this?

This is not important.

But it's all about like how we label things as important and not important.

Be it,

You know,

Something very basic that we experience in our body or,

You know,

Be it an external sound.

But I believe the now,

As Charles said,

Now everything is there in the now and nothing is important,

More important or less important.

Whatever arises is is there is.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Definitely.

And I think like.

I think sometimes,

Like for me,

I know,

Particularly when you're talking about books like The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle,

Right?

The emphasis is is just coming into the present moment again and again.

And what I've noticed is is that sometimes for us,

We might need more of a.

Framework to.

We might need more of a framework of what is important in our lives to therefore have the intention to put behind that and connect in a meaningful way,

Which is bringing us into the now.

So to be clear on that,

Like,

For instance,

Areas of life like family.

Friends,

Spirituality,

Well-being,

Nature.

Community living or something like that,

Right?

Sometimes people need kind of like a framework to to actually assess because we're we there's an imbalance.

There's an imbalance sometimes in those areas I'm talking about.

I can speak for personal experience,

Working on my projects,

Focusing all my attention pretty much on my projects.

And then the other aspects,

Those other life areas that are important.

Get get get pushed to one side.

And so.

Yeah,

I'm just kind of reflecting on that,

Because ultimately,

Sometimes what we need is is a bit is a little bit of a framework to recognize,

OK,

These are my areas of life and how much of my energy am I putting in,

For instance,

To friends at the moment?

Is it just right?

Not enough or too much.

And with those specific areas of life that I mentioned,

Not that there's a definitive list,

But it can be really helpful and it's been helpful for me to get a bit more of a balance.

In these areas of life that are important,

Even though my projects are calling me literally 24-7 going,

You've got to do that,

You've got to do that,

You've got to finish that off,

You know.

And when we can when we can have that balance,

Then it's like,

Well,

Yeah,

This is where I'm going to invest my energy.

And then what are we investing our energy in?

The present moment.

So,

Yeah.

How is that experience for you when you,

For example,

Let's say you are working on a project so and you does it happen?

I'm just guessing here that does it happen that maybe you bring your awareness to the present and then you realize,

OK,

Maybe there are other things or is it that you kind of decide that I need to do this at this particular time?

How is that experience?

It could be a bit of both,

Actually.

Yeah,

It could.

It's usually a bit of both.

But because I like to have because a lot of,

You know,

My teachings with what I do,

Especially with acceptance commitment therapy is about like values.

You know what's important in your life.

That's kind of the back of my mind.

So it helps me for that.

But on the other side of it,

I want to tell you,

Like,

It's it's been really tough because in 2015,

You know,

I I burnt out.

I had I got adrenal fatigue and I've never been unwell before.

Like and that.

So even even now,

I would say that I've got more of a balance and I'm really looking after myself,

Particularly with like sleep,

Which is really,

Really important.

But even now,

If I'm to be really honest.

You know,

The niggle for me is I there's just there's there's still more to do on my projects because I've I spread myself so thinly when I came up with,

You know,

What I wanted to do in the world.

And it started like 11 years ago.

And there was so many hold ups and hurdles and I was just spreading myself so thinly.

And a lot of the energy that I put into certain things at the time seemed like exactly the right thing.

But the universe is like,

No,

It's not not the time.

And I still didn't take those lessons in,

Like,

Even though I've been really into spirituality for a long time,

Like 20,

25 years or something.

So yeah,

I think it's a bit of both,

Sakyaba,

Actually.

Yeah.

Sakyaba,

I was wondering if you came up with something in your mind or if you let go of it when you were assessing what what feels good about having your feet on the floor?

So,

What is the question?

If you came if there there was something that you sort of became aware of,

Like,

Oh,

This is why it feels good,

Or if it's just kind of let going of any sort of analysis of that?

Okay,

Yeah.

So it was I was like,

The feet was the feet were on the ground.

And I did came up with this feeling,

Oh,

It feels good,

You know,

It feels so good.

And then I started thinking about,

Is it because of earthing?

Is it because of there is something you know,

That Mother Earth provides that,

That is feeling good about it.

But then I left that I was like,

I don't,

I should not think about this.

There was this mind coming in between,

Telling me,

Oh,

This is not important,

You know,

Let something else arise in the moment.

So kind of assessing there,

Kind of going to that,

Like,

Because what you were describing,

When I heard you talk about your experience first was like,

Almost like the mind is constantly sort of attaching to things or scanning for what's important.

And then you find yourself in something,

And then it's up to kind of another part of you to become aware of that and sort of assess,

Is this important?

Or like,

Is this what I'm really attempting to do?

And then what I heard you saying,

Ruben,

Was that maybe it's really valuable to take time to step back and see,

Almost to have a framework for that,

That maybe helps you in those moments,

To say,

Paying attention,

That maybe becomes really micro down to paying,

Okay,

Is paying attention to the sensation of my feet against the floor and becoming interested in what it's like,

What I want to be doing right now,

Or,

Or is it not?

And that maybe being in relation to your awareness of some of these buckets of,

Like,

What is important to me in my life.

I was wondering,

So I have a question about that.

And also I want to throw something out.

But I guess one question is,

How do you go about,

Or do you have thoughts about how you go about creating that framework?

Is there like,

Is there a way that you approach that or that you would guide other people to approach kind of creating that for oneself?

Also this second part,

This is maybe more in the kind of vulnerability range of this experience where I have something that I'm,

That is happening in my mind,

And I'm going to attempt to articulate it,

But I don't totally know how to.

But that's kind of a fun part of this.

I was just noticing while you two were kind of speaking to each other,

I was becoming,

And maybe this is a unique thing that having a group of three people offers in the,

This what is now experience,

I was becoming aware of my experience sort of as an observer of you two interacting and sort of noticing how is it that I follow what one person is saying and then,

And then how it passes on to the next person.

And like,

What is it that I'm actually following?

Because it's,

I don't think that I'm repeating exact words,

Or maybe I am holding onto,

Okay,

This word is connected to that one chunk of what you're talking about.

And then this word is connected to the next chunk.

And then that's going to inform the way that I'm going to interact from there.

But I don't know,

It was a pretty novel experience for me as I was paying attention to you both and becoming aware of what it's like for me to observe this interaction and how is it even that I'm paying attention to and following this interaction between you two.

I tell you what's interesting and what came to mind probably around the time that you were having these,

These,

You know,

This,

This observation and these thoughts,

Because obviously we're in a three and I'm here as a guest,

You two,

You two have obviously been working on this project before.

There's an element of responsibility that needs to be taken from one person the most and it seems like it's you,

Charles.

And so therefore that will,

That will give you a different experience,

Right?

And then you're kind of observing,

You know,

Me and Saqib talking and ultimately it's kind of,

You're going to be toing and froing with coming in to the what is now being organic and then actually there's an element of kind of responsibility or is there?

You know,

There's not supposed to be right,

But ultimately,

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Very interesting point actually.

Yeah.

How would you say that you noticed that from me or is it maybe an energy kind of thing?

Do you know what,

Do you know what,

Honestly,

I,

I don't think it was an energy thing.

I think from what I pick up,

You're really,

You're really present in here with us.

I think we all are.

It's just my experience with doing like group work and process work.

And as,

As kind of a facilitator,

I noticed that there's a certain kind of responsibility that comes with it.

Even though when you're doing process work,

You're supposed to be taking part in the process,

Not as a facilitator,

As another,

As another member,

As another human being,

Instead of I've got the facilitator role on.

So it wasn't anything in your energy.

It was me kind of like wondering what that was like and also kind of appreciating the fact that I'm here to just,

Yeah,

Talk and go with the flow.

Yeah.

It's actually really cool to notice that because you're making me think of my role in what I was doing for the past few years before what I'm doing now,

Which is more just kind of free form on my own.

Which was,

I was working in a college counseling center and a lot of what I did was what you would call process groups,

Which you may or may not be familiar with.

And so exactly what you were just describing is a lot of,

And I feel kind of removed from it now,

But it's like very ingrained sort of in me and it's kind of fun to remember.

But just the way you were describing that,

It feels like that to me sort of,

Because there is,

So in those process groups,

The whole idea is we don't have a plan and we're here to connect with each other and be open and present.

And at the same time,

I am a facilitator in that role and I sort of feel the ownership of it and want to make sure that people are connecting with each other or notice when it kind of moves away from that and shift us all back together.

So it is actually,

When you said that,

It really resonates with me because I even noticed myself doing that there in that moment.

It's like,

Okay,

I noticed this from you,

Sakib,

And how that relates to Reuben and how we all relate back together.

Yeah.

Totally,

Man,

Totally.

And in fact,

That's exactly what I'm talking about,

Process groups.

Yeah.

Process groups.

I didn't realize that you'd had experience in that,

But now it makes obvious sense with regards to even how you kicked this off and started to say what you were noticing as that was,

You know,

A few minutes was playing out and everything now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

Maybe because I haven't done process groups,

So I don't feel any responsibility.

And yeah,

That's interesting and very interesting observation,

Reuben.

I'm wondering,

Charles,

What was that,

Like now that Reuben has said that and you explained that,

But I would like to go deeper into what was that experience for you,

You know,

As Reuben said it.

Is that exactly the same experience or is there some difference to it?

Well,

I think Reuben pointed out something that I was unconscious of.

And so it's cool to have that reflected back to you and sort of highlight something that a process that's playing out in the moment in a way that really resonates.

And it makes me think of this,

The concept of the Joe Harry window.

I'm not sure if you've heard of that before,

But it was made by these two guys named Joe and Harry,

And they came up with this Joe Harry window and there's four different windows of it.

And there's the one it's like,

It represents your sort of being in the world or your consciousness.

And so there's one window,

Which is what I,

It's the private window.

And so it's what I'm aware of and I'm not sharing with others.

And then there's the public window,

Which is what I'm sharing with others and others are aware of.

And then there's the subconscious window,

Which I'm not aware of and other people are not aware of.

And then there's the blind window,

Which is what other people are aware of,

But I'm not aware of.

And like so much of what those process groups were like,

Or maybe what they were about,

Maybe what was most helpful about them was to have people sort of learn more about the blind element of things.

And it's maybe really challenging to ever get that kind of feedback because it requires quite a bit of presence and willingness to be vulnerable to share something like that.

Because who knows how I might have taken something like that because I even noticed maybe in your energy,

They're wanting to make sure that I wasn't receiving that as like a criticism or the taking away from my ability to be present or anything like that.

But I think that's so cool.

And that's what's really special about this kind of experience.

And it's also awesome to just relate with you like this,

Knowing,

Because I can just totally sense that you have experience with that.

So I think all of that is going on for me.

And just the cool thing is to be able to talk about it openly and to not move away,

But just to stay with it.

And then- That's it,

To stay right in the group or in this case,

The three of us,

Right?

And just for the sake of the listeners,

Right?

Because they might be like,

Well,

I'm kind of understanding what's going on with what they're talking about with process groups,

But maybe not.

And so,

And I think you've done a really good job at explaining that.

But just because people need repetition,

What we're talking about here is exactly what we're doing in this podcast,

Right?

What is now and just kind of going with the flow,

But not just necessarily going with the flow about what we're thinking,

But also of being as honest and as transparent with each other in exactly what is kind of playing out in our minds and putting it onto the coffee table,

Metaphorically speaking,

Right?

And as a result of that,

We're just deepening and enhancing this connection because that's where it's at.

And there can be amazing things that come from it,

Right?

This kind of process group work,

Particularly when people start to talk about,

Like you said,

Charles,

Right?

Vulnerability and things like that,

Where out there in the everyday world,

You start doing some process stuff.

People are gonna be like,

What the heck's going on?

What do you mean you were noticing this and you perceive this within me and what does that mean?

You know,

It's like,

People are gonna,

Quite often,

People might wanna run a mile unless you've kind of got that rapport with them,

Right?

But there's a magic to it,

There's a depth to it,

And there's such a cohesion and an understanding.

And it's basically as simple as that,

Right?

Being honest and open about whatever you're experiencing in your body and mind and what you're perceiving,

Not only in yourself,

But potentially in other people and having a discussion about that.

Hmm.

How was that for you to share it with me?

And like you mentioned,

Rapport,

And you and Sakop have some rapport,

And this is our first time meeting.

I wonder if there was any element of vulnerability for you in sharing it with me.

There wasn't vulnerability,

But it's because I can see you and I've picked up on your energy.

And I think even the fact that,

Like,

You know,

You're a teacher on Insight Timer,

You do meditations,

You're working on great projects,

That sets the scene already.

Right,

Right.

You know what I mean?

It's like even before I've met you,

There's an element of risk in quotes that's not really at risk that I think I can go down that track.

And then when you said your first piece straight after that,

That quiet time we had,

And you said,

Oh,

I was noticing this and I was noticing that,

I was like,

Oh,

Right,

Let's go,

Let's go.

This is awesome.

So yeah,

I didn't experience vulnerability in saying that.

And I get what you're,

I'm guessing the reason you asked that is because,

Like you said,

The way I responded to you was kind of respectful in a way of kind of holding the space in case you might have been put out by it or whatever,

Does that make sense?

Put out by that way of talking.

And yeah,

For me personally,

I think the reason that I did that is because I'm just quite well-versed in doing that anyway,

And kind of just softly kind of going with any validation and just setting the scene for it instead of being like really direct,

Hey,

I noticed this and I perceive this in you,

You know,

That would be quite direct.

And I'm sure you'd be fine with it.

But yeah,

I guess that just comes with working like this,

With people for many years,

And just wanting to just,

Yeah,

Do it nice and softly and respectfully in a way where it holds the space a little.

Yeah,

It holds the space.

I can- Was that like,

Oh,

Go ahead.

I can notice your passion,

Ruben,

For like this,

This now experience,

You know,

The way me,

Charles and I have this discussion and the way we are enthusiastic about it,

You have that same energy and I'm totally enjoying this conversation because now we are three together.

And you know,

It's so wonderful that from nothing,

So much can sprout,

You know,

From this zero point field,

There is so much coming out of it,

And it's so wonderful.

I'm just like feeling that.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Thank you.

Thank you for saying that.

And what I'm just reflecting on now is,

Because obviously this is recorded for a podcast and stuff,

But having a conversation like this shows that we're willing to go there.

And what that means is we've already got an incredible connection and I've never spoke to Charles before,

But it's almost,

You know,

It's like,

I know this guy.

And if he wanted to come over and he didn't have a bed to stay,

He could stay,

You know,

Stay,

You know what I mean?

It's like the depth of connection and friendship is fostered through this process of being honest,

Authentic,

And genuine like this.

Charles,

You were asking something before I was speaking.

Oh,

Just what that interaction was like for you sort of in the midst of that.

For me?

I was wondering that what do you,

If you both have worked on these groups,

I was having this question that how,

And I would love to know your perspective,

Charles,

And your perspective,

Ruben,

On that.

How is that same or is that different?

The experience that you have with groups of doing such work and the experience that you are having now in this conversation,

Is it same or is it different?

So what's that for you,

Charles?

I would say definitely different because generally I feel very liberated of that kind of role.

And I feel that here too.

And of the element of sort of me facilitating things.

So I would say that it does feel very different in that respect,

But maybe the way that it's very similar is I noticed how much I just loved those experiences because they felt so alive.

And maybe that's sort of the feeling that I'm just generally after in life.

Like noticing how things maybe feel habitual or dull or not alive.

And then maybe I'm just thinking potentially that's one of my main sort of frameworks for assessing what I'm paying attention to in this moment.

And those kinds of experiences where everyone is there,

It's just like peeling back all these layers of protection that we have with each other because we're hopefully creating this safe space for that to happen.

The thing maybe that's pulsing at the core that feels exactly the same is just that we're all really here together.

And this is actually happening right now.

And we're all committed to giving each other all of our presence.

It's not half,

It's not like maybe what typically is like 5%,

Who knows?

But to be in a space where you truly believe that everyone here is like giving you everything that they have in that moment,

It's just a powerful thing to be a part of.

Like nothing else.

There's so many things I could be thinking about in this world right now or projects or what I'm gonna be doing later.

And as I just thought of that,

All the other things I could be thinking about,

I noticed how I haven't spent even a fraction of a second thinking about those things because I really feel that each of us is so committed to really opening and being here together.

And it's like,

None of that stuff even exists because we're in this space and it's so alive.

Like it's all happening now,

If that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What part here,

Ruben?

Are you asking the question of,

Does this right here now replicate kind of the process group experience that I've got?

Is that?

Yeah.

Yeah,

This is it.

And you know,

The funny thing is,

Is that you could read a whole great book on something as simple as us being genuine,

Authentic and noticing stuff in ourselves,

Putting it down there,

Exploring it,

Or perceiving something in somebody else,

Putting it out there,

Maybe whoever perceived it was correct or not.

Not that there's a right or wrong thing you can say when you do this.

And maybe given that feedback,

Somebody else,

It's one of those blind windows that Charles was talking about earlier,

Right?

It's like,

Oh,

I haven't noticed that in me,

You know?

And that can be an element to then explore and go down to another level of depth.

So even in explaining something,

It's like,

Hey,

We're gonna be in the now,

And we're gonna just talk in this little group of three,

And we're just gonna be in the process of the now.

Even in saying that,

It's like so simple,

But to explain it then starts to create a book of how you do that and what it means and everything like that,

You know?

There's a psychologist called Yolom who does interpersonal therapy.

He started that kind of,

It's called IPT,

Interpersonal therapy,

So it's group process.

And his book is like,

Honestly,

It's about that thick.

And when you pick it up and read some of the bits,

It's like,

Oh yeah,

Of course,

That makes sense.

That's real life stuff,

That's that.

So yeah,

This quality of connection and this kind of,

Yeah,

Authentic expression is very,

Very similar,

I would say.

Having said that,

Like Charles was alluding to earlier about,

Sorry,

Alluding's the wrong word,

Isn't it?

But I mean,

Like you were suggesting earlier about the depth of connection.

What can happen is that if people are not ready for that,

Then you've got like another layer,

You've got another layer.

So people that are kind of willing to come into a group like that,

But they're not quite sure how it's gonna work.

And then you've got all that kind of stuff that will naturally show up within you about second guessing what it's like for them.

And then them kind of going,

Oh,

What should I be doing?

Or is this right?

Or whatever.

So,

Yeah.

I was just thinking about how that can even make it,

I don't know if the word is easier,

But in those dynamics,

Likely you're gonna have,

If it's up,

So I would generally do groups of like six to eight people.

And people are certainly on different levels in terms of their real kind of willingness to be present and to notice those sort of various levels.

That's a lot of,

Or I'm remembering it to be a lot of the fun of it.

And it's sort of allowed for so much of my role to be taken care of.

Cause I noticed maybe this person's pulled out or there was this interaction that they're not really kind of aware of maybe the conflict that is beneath the surface between them.

And so I have like these different things constantly to play with,

But maybe something different where each person is,

Is like so present where there's,

And I might be here sort of pulled into that role in a way that I'm used to,

But it's like each of us,

It's almost like a dojo sort of for presence.

So we're sort of sparring with each other and each person is so willing to do that where it's almost like I'm more,

I am more sort of naked in that kind of experience.

If that makes sense,

Where it's like it maybe it could make it easier to kind of you have more grasp of it when there's different levels of sort of willingness to be present.

But then when everyone's sort of in that kind of same,

I'm really here space,

It's almost like your control is,

Control maybe isn't right either,

But you just,

There's a nakedness to it,

Which is really exciting.

But then it's also for maybe the ego within me,

It's like,

Well,

What do I do now?

That's right,

The ego is going to keep going,

Oh,

Hang on,

Well,

Is this it?

Couldn't the moment be improved?

And we're here now and it feels like it's got flow,

But could it be better?

Yeah,

Definitely,

Definitely.

Yeah,

I think that boils down to my thought about something being important and not being important,

Like how we label things,

That this particular part of conversation is important,

This part is not important,

But what this process has really learned me,

Like taught me to experiences that everything in this moment even the slightest thing is important and can be explored,

As you said,

Ruben,

A book can be written about it.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And you know what the funny thing is,

Sakib,

It ties back into you taking your slippers off and putting your feet on the floor,

Right?

And then kind of second guessing,

Well,

Actually this is enjoyable,

But there should be something else because I need something else in order to then talk about that because I can't talk about my slippers.

But the fact that you were like,

This is what I noticed and there was my slippers,

It's like,

That was it.

Just like with the smoothie maker in me earlier,

It was like,

Well,

This was what it was.

And then there's this just kind of honesty and the ridiculousness of it in my ego going,

Oh yeah,

Well,

That's a niggle.

Yeah,

Don't talk about that right yet.

It's like,

Well,

If not when?

And it's like,

Yeah,

Same with the slippers.

Well,

They're nice,

But is this what I talk about?

Having a funny visual right now in my mind that friend of yours is coming here in the podcast with us and making smoothies for all of us.

Yeah,

Yeah,

The perfect time.

Yeah,

That's right.

It's kind of cool to me because it's like,

Those are the only things,

Maybe not only things,

But those are the things that are totally out of our control.

So it's like the moment truly is speaking to us through your flatmate making a smoothie because you could not exert control over that.

So that is really like purely filling up the present moment and that's it.

And it's like kind of in a beautiful way or just the noticing your feeling of your feet against the floor.

And it's almost like it happened to you.

And then there's this other part that wants to step back and come back into quote unquote now,

But like those things are so now because they're just happening and then you receive them.

And then it's sort of up to how it is that you receive them is like,

Am I trying to push that away or is it just like,

Oh wow,

This is what's filling up this experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have a humorous quality to it.

Maybe any other intellectual conversation that I would try to bring in,

Maybe I won't enjoy it as much as I'm enjoying the smoothie conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're absolutely right.

It's very human,

Right?

This is it.

This is what being human is about.

And it's what being spiritual is about as well.

Acknowledging this,

Acknowledging the humanness of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.

So I think it's a good time for meditation.

What do you say,

Charles?

It sounds good to me.

I just wanted to share one thing before we do that,

That I noticed,

I don't know if I've ever really noticed this before,

But during my silence,

There was,

Ultimately I was doing it,

But it felt like a movement just kind of was naturally happening for me.

And it was like this.

And for people that can't see me,

My head is just kind of like slightly rocking back and forth.

And it just kind of,

It felt like that was happening to a certain extent.

Like it was just that I was letting go of resistance against this thing that kind of wanted to move in that direction.

And I just felt like sharing that with you.

I don't know if that ever happens to you,

Or if you ever move within quote unquote meditation,

But it was just kind of interesting to notice that.

And then I sort of went with it.

I was probably embellishing it or exaggerating it,

But it was kind of fun to do that.

And just interesting to notice.

And I wanted to make sure to just to share it with you and with the listeners for whatever reason,

It just felt like I wanted to.

Well,

Funnily enough,

Charles,

I had somebody contact me a couple of days ago asking specifically about that.

And just that,

It's only when she's doing the meditation and she's in that posture,

And there's this kind of swaying that takes place.

And she said,

It's almost like I indulge in it,

But I'm able to maintain my posture and everything.

And she's like,

What's that about?

Why,

Why,

Why?

And I've heard as well,

I've had an experience of it before a few times,

Not so much now,

But I think that's because my back's supported.

Actually,

Now I reflect on it.

I think it's probably because I was in,

It was when I was going to the temple in Thailand and sitting cross-legged.

So I think there's more room for that to be able to happen.

Yeah,

And I've heard about it before and I think it's very normal,

Just that kind of that energy.

And as long as we're allowing that flow,

Then we're also allowing a lot of other flows,

Energetically going through our bodies.

So,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Interesting.

For me also,

I think it's for me,

It's forward and backwards.

So it's like this.

Oh no,

That's the wrong way that is.

No,

No,

No.

You can't do it that way.

It's gotta be side to side.

Forward and backward is ego and side to side of spirit.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I believe it's like that in dance,

It's maybe the same thing that a dancer,

There's a famous saying that the dancer becomes the dance itself.

Maybe that when the dancer flows with that energy,

Which is naturally arising in the body,

Maybe that's what it,

Is it the same experience,

Charles,

For you?

That sounds like a good description to me,

Just sort of something happening.

And I quote unquote,

I'm kind of getting out of the way of it and just letting it play.

And it felt nice.

Great.

So Ruben,

Would you like to guide us through a short meditation?

Absolutely.

So sure.

A short meditation,

Yeah,

With a bit of reflective stuff.

And absolutely.

Whatever comes up in the now.

Yeah,

It can be.

We,

In the past,

Sometimes it's been sort of based on whatever themes arose within our time together,

But also Saket has just kind of allowed the meditation to happen in the moment,

Just to see whatever rises or could just be super simple.

And we just sit here.

Sure,

Yeah.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

So,

Giving yourself the right to be here now.

Closing your eyes if you wish to,

Or holding a soft gaze.

Some people like to hold a soft gaze instead.

And allowing yourself to relax.

Meditation comes so much easier when we allow our bodies to relax.

So you might wanna tune in,

Just taking attention to your body,

Your body,

Your body,

And just letting it flow.

And allowing yourself to relax.

So you might wanna tune in,

Just taking attention to your body in generally,

Noticing all those different sensations,

But particularly,

Are there any areas of tension or resistance that you can gently allow?

Because that's the magic word,

Allow.

Our body's natural state is one of relaxation.

So allow,

Soften,

Allow,

Soften.

And so in the service of like what we've,

What we've discussed here,

As you allow your body to relax,

You might want to anchor,

Anchor,

Or focus,

Or connect.

They all mean the same thing.

I like the word anchor,

Because we can anchor to the now.

And how can we do that?

So the body is a really great place to start.

Some people might prefer the breath.

Let's just have a couple of experiments here.

So as you notice how you're holding your body,

As you've been relaxing in this moment,

Getting a sense of the parts of your body that are absolutely still.

And as I join you with this experiential practice of noticing the parts of my body that are absolutely still,

I'm noticing my mind coming in going,

But what about the reflective practice?

What about what we've spoken about?

So I'm just going to allow my mind to come and go,

Because it feels right.

It feels so much more grounding to notice these still parts of my body,

Noticing how these parts of your body come alive,

Just like a statue.

And just like a statue where there's all of the weather in this moment,

As you hold your body like this gently with these parts of your body that are absolutely still,

You are a little bit like that statue.

You can allow the sounds to come and go around you,

The sounds in my voice,

The other sounds.

You can allow the thoughts about the past,

The future,

What you're going to do in the next couple of minutes to come and go whilst you connect to these parts of your body that are absolutely still.

And as I'm doing this meditation now,

I'm noticing my mind saying,

What about people that don't really connect with the body as much?

What about people who prefer to anchor to the breath?

Then this is true.

So thank you,

Mind.

But in the spirit of staying connected,

Recognizing that even when I have these thoughts,

I can still notice the parts of my body that are absolutely still.

And now very gently taking attention to your out-breath.

If you prefer to stay with your body,

Feel free to.

But just very gently to your out-breath,

Noticing how it speeds up,

Slows down and comes to a pause.

And if you've got a busy mind that is distracting you more than usual,

Feel free to use the words here on the in-breath and now on the out-breath.

Choosing your anchor for these last one or two moments that we've got.

Choosing this and committing to this.

This is my moment.

This is my anchor for now.

Whilst you anchor to this,

Gently allowing these words to flow through you whilst you are connected to your anchor.

I choose to be a little more open and receptive for when I acknowledge that I can give and receive meaningful connection.

There's a potential for giving and receiving meaningful connection.

I choose to notice the thoughts in my mind that try and sabotage that meaningful connection and recognize that my mind is just doing its job.

It's OK to have these thoughts coming and going in the background whilst I continue to connect,

Not only to the present moment,

But obviously to the person or the people that I am able to offer meaningful connection to and able to receive meaningful connection from.

This is the practice of being here now and we're all on the same journey.

All human beings on the same journey and with the power of awareness,

We can enrich our lives more so.

And so thank you,

Charles.

Thank you,

Sir Kiyiv,

For this connection.

I appreciate it.

And thank you for asking me to take part of this meditation to guide this meditation.

That was unexpected,

But I appreciate you asking me this.

And in your own time,

Opening your eyes,

Coming back.

And as we come back,

My mind is already saying,

Sakib said a short meditation.

Maybe that was a medium length one.

Maybe it wasn't.

So thank you,

Mind.

And thank you,

Present moment.

Cheers,

Guys.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for that,

Reuben.

Yeah,

Go ahead.

I was just going to say one thing I wanted to say.

A thought that I had during that was noticing how nice it was for the background sounds from any of our respective environments to also be a part of that.

And how maybe that's even more real than a guided meditation that might be in a soundproof recording studio or something.

And they're all just sort of playing their part in the experience.

Yeah.

You know what's funny,

Charles,

Is I've had people say exactly that to me.

And my mind goes,

No,

Because I like it perfect.

And they're like,

I actually prefer it more raw.

And I'm like,

What?

And it takes so much more time to make it perfect.

I was about to say that I was thinking when you said that I asked you for a short meditation.

I was thinking that it was short,

Actually.

I didn't want to come out.

Oh,

Right.

OK.

It was beautiful.

And regarding what you,

Charles,

Said,

The noises,

I think there were more noises in my background.

And it actually reminded me of a saying from Osho.

And he said that anybody can meditate in the mountains.

But a great meditator is someone who can meditate in the crowd.

So that actually inspired me.

And I remember the time when I was in Delhi,

In Old Delhi.

So Old Delhi is a place that is very,

Very crowded.

And I just sat there.

And I meditated.

And I realized that this is a perfect experience.

Now I have reached at some level in my meditation practice.

And maybe especially challenging for you when it's coming from your environment because then you might feel the responsibility of it.

And the ego really acts up in that moment.

Yeah.

Something like what Ruben experienced initially with the smoothie.

Right.

Well,

Yeah,

Thank you both so much for this.

It's very enriching and nourishing for me.

I don't know,

Ruben,

If there's anything.

I'll stop recording here in a second.

But if there's anything you wanted to share with the listeners,

If it's something about how to contact you or anything that you want them to know about.

And also,

If not,

That's fine too.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Sure.

So yeah,

My digital platform,

Which includes a free app,

Which you can find on the App Store like Mindfulness 2021.

But my organization is Mindful Creation.

So mindfulcreation.

Com.

I've also got a nonprofit charity that's set up for young people.

And we're creating a psychotherapy app that's free for teenagers based on acceptance commitment therapy that's got like 40 years of science behind it.

So yeah,

People can.

And then on Insight Timer as well,

Obviously you guys are on Insight Timer as well.

Yeah,

The live events that I do there.

And yeah,

Definitely if people are interested,

Come and see me at mindfulcreation.

Com.

And the social media handles are pretty the same,

Like at Mindful Creation,

No S,

Just all one word,

Particularly Instagram,

Post a few things on there.

But yeah,

Thank you for the opportunity.

Cheers,

Chas.

Cool.

Thank you so much.

It was a very wonderful experience.

Thank you for joining us in the What Is Now experience.

We hope that you liked the episode.

If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation,

Then you can share those ideas through your comments.

We would love to know.

Stay tuned for the next episode.

Namaste.

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I love these three together!!