Healing The Nervous System (What is Now? Podcast)

How do you let the nervous system heal itself? Saqib and Charles explore this question and more in today's experiential conversation. Each of these sessions begins with one minute of silence followed by an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment and finishes with a short guided meditation based on the themes of the session. Thanks for joining us!

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

Anything arise,

Be there in particular?

Initially as I started,

Just to give context to anyone who is listening,

Today we are using a phrase for having a discussion,

Although it is in the moment,

But still we are using a particular phrase.

This phrase is healing the nervous system.

We just did a small silent practice on just contemplating or meditating on this phrase.

What came up for me initially was this desire to be intellectual.

This desire to think of what is the nervous system,

What do I know about the nervous system,

What have I learnt about this.

Again,

Going back to the past and trying to bring in those concepts and labels which we give,

I think this intellectual desire is just throwing that information which we know or which we have learnt from somewhere.

Then again,

I reminded myself that I have to experience this.

This is not about knowledge or this is not about that.

What I have to do is I have to experience my nervous system in this very moment.

As I did that and then I realized that it is my thoughts that will trigger my nervous system or that will relax my nervous system.

If I am just busy with my thoughts and again thinking about what to say,

What not to say,

What knowledge should I have and all that,

Then actually my nervous system was activated at that time,

Whatever it is called,

The sympathetic nervous system or whatever it is.

So then I bring my awareness to my body,

To my being in the moment and as I let go of those thoughts of the past,

Then that relaxation happens.

So I think the insight was that thoughts have a huge role to play here when it comes to the nervous system.

Just as you are describing it,

It sounds like through a certain lens it is incredibly simple,

The notion of healing the nervous system but becomes complicated when we complicate it.

Or when we look at it through a complicated lens of concepts like the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system.

I guess while that could be helpful for developing and understanding,

There is a way in which it could work against how simple actually relaxing or healing the nervous system might be.

Just as you were talking,

I was imagining a scientist or researcher holding the nervous system out in front of them as if to heal my own nervous system.

I am looking at a model of all of these nerves in the body,

Parasympathetic and sympathetic,

And I am analyzing,

Looking at them,

Looking at the different names of them and the ways I shift out of sympathetic into parasympathetic.

Really trying to work through the healing of it,

But maybe the whole time you are saying I am activating the sympathetic to a certain degree by trying to figure it out.

It might actually be so simple if I could just stop trying or thinking about it and just do something different.

That latter part is what makes it so hard for people to heal the nervous system because it is so simple and I think we want it to be more complicated.

I want you to give me a series of instructions and a detailed explanation of what this thing is.

One kind of simple thing for me that popped up during that two minute period of time was there is a motorcycle that is outside my place.

I don't know if you are able to hear it or not.

It was revving pretty loudly and I just did it again,

But maybe my microphone is tuning it out.

But that caused me a certain tightness because it was taking away from this experience or maybe it would be disruptive for you or someone listening to this and I have this internal reaction of just like,

Stop revving.

Would you go somewhere already?

It is somehow interacting with this figure who is revving their motorcycle and my nervous system is activated when that is happening.

There is something that can happen when I just let go of really caring about that because it is out of my control and also just coming back to something that is less thought based and is just experiential of just hearing the revving of the bike.

It is so different from the way that I am hearing my voice or your voice in a way that naturally relaxes my nervous system and I notice like a tension sort of leaving the body when that happens.

I am thinking that if you were riding that bike then you will enjoy that sound.

The perception changes then.

So I think it is not the sound itself but the thought that came in between the sound and you which kind of either triggered the sympathetic or the parasympathetic.

Maybe it created a fear response or maybe it created a joyful response.

So that is actually maybe in our control might not be the right word but I think it is we who can trigger it or not or trigger either of the two nervous systems sympathetic or parasympathetic.

Right.

I think there is a quote attributed to the Buddha that says with our thoughts we make the world.

So it is and I think another line that I have come across but I don't know the source of it but it is not the thing but it is my reaction to the thing.

Yeah.

Yeah the second arrow right?

So do you think that maybe the answer is simply to drop back behind thinking or to try to change thinking like replace a thought with a thought that is more so in the example of the motorcycle is does healing my nervous system mean in that moment just sort of like letting go of the judgmental thought that I have or maybe intentionally shifting to the other perspective that you described of like well for them it is enjoyable and for me too it would be and maybe in that way it can be enjoyable.

Does that distinction make sense?

Yeah absolutely.

What I feel is that the desire to change that thought also although that is helpful and you know I think this is what all positive psychology is about that okay change your negative thoughts to your positive positive right.

But I you know what I've come to realize lately is that that is also kind of a struggle.

It is like a it is kind of a fighting you know not accepting what is so let's say I get a thought let's take another example.

Let's say I get a thought that oh I you know the weather is not good outside it's a bad day so that's a that's a negative thought right so traditionally someone who practices positive psychology they will they will suggest to me no just look you know just look at the bright side of this or tell yourself no it's going to be a good day or wonderful day.

So for me it's like a struggle it's like an effort a pressure it's like a pressure that I need to do something to change this thought which itself creates kind of an agitation right.

It's like you know I need to push myself to to to be positive but what I came to realize lately is that you know something which Buddha said about desires and passions and he said that the only thing that comes between you and your enlightenment is desire.

And here I can sense the desire to change something so that takes me away from my being state to to a movement that I want to do something to change this but what what I feel is that you know an optimum response to that thought will be in this case to that that thought of the sound of you know that motorcycle outside is is to become conscious of that is to just observe it.

And I think there is there is some automatic healing in observing that as we keep observing it and as we keep becoming conscious of it we don't we will not need to put any effort to change it it will automatically change at some point of time because now we are aware of it.

So I think what what matters here is how conscious and unconscious we are unconsciously we will you know we will judge that sound and create that thought but if I'm conscious then maybe I'll judge this sound initially but at least next time I will know that I judged that sound and the next time it won't happen then automatically.

Observing without pushing away or clinging.

Yeah.

Because maybe pushing away back to your example of the weather would be like I hate this why is it you know raining sucks now my days ruined.

But maybe clinging on the other side might be,

How do I make this positive,

Or how do I flip this and say,

Well that means it's a good day to do this or whatever that might also be like you mentioned the Buddha.

And it was making me think of this,

The second quote unquote noble truth of suffering coming from both clinging and aversion desire and aversion and so that would also be some form of this thing that is actually feeding my suffering.

If I'm holding on to it or trying to change it or really trying to exert anything.

Yeah,

I'm going to be contributing to that suffering and it's making me think of the nervous system,

Maybe on a bodily level like if I'm always moving one way or the other.

I'm constantly in contraction,

Which might mean physically to injury or disease or the development of inflammation,

My immune system,

Like getting weaker and all these things because I'm constantly sort of exerting one way or another.

But in this state of just observing.

I'm just had the,

Like,

The phrase of I'm allowing everything to just be.

I'm allowing myself to be natural and in doing that I sort of like unfold my clenchedness,

Allow the nervous system to heal itself because there's nothing.

That's making me think too of like there's nothing I can do to heal the nervous system,

Like the nervous system heals itself.

I imagine when I get out of the way.

I don't know if I'm trying to do anything about it like this.

There's a certain genius to the body and the quote unquote nervous system and if only I could stop trying so hard,

It would naturally reach an optimized state in line with the universe,

Maybe.

Yeah,

That's a very good point.

I think that's a good insight about nervous system that maybe it heals itself and we just need to get out of the way of it.

Yeah,

Because you know,

I was also this analogy was coming to my mind again.

I think this is by Buddha,

Which Gautama Buddha and he said that I think for the lake to reflect the moon,

The surface has to become.

But if there is turbulence on the surface,

Then it will not reflect the moon because you know,

To explain that a little bit to whoever is listening.

You know,

This turbulence is like is the thoughts that we have and moon being the enlightened state or enlightenment.

And you know,

When the surfaces come,

That means when the thoughts are mine,

We are in a being state and not kind of pushing any thoughts.

And then we,

You know,

That enlightened state within us is reflected.

Whereas if there is turbulence in the mind,

Then it clouds that.

So,

You know,

What I'm thinking is that although negative thoughts,

Yes,

They do create turbulence.

Even the idea of pushing a positive thought or,

You know,

Wanting to have a positive thought that itself is a thought itself.

And that also creates that turbulence.

So it's like,

You know,

Going in cycles and not getting anywhere that from positive to negative,

Positive,

Negative.

But there is a state beyond this positive and negative,

You know,

And I think the quote of Rumi fits in that,

You know,

Beyond the duality of good and bad,

There is a field I will meet you there.

So this beyond the state of positive and negative,

There is an awareness,

You know,

Which is the key to maybe to that enlightenment or even,

You know,

In the in this sense,

The key to relaxing the nervous system.

So we might imagine the water ripples on the side of good being something different from the side of bad,

But it's really it's all just splashing in the water.

Yeah,

Yeah,

It's like it's like there are two sides of the same coin,

The good and the bad.

I'm glad selfishly that you responded in the way you did to my question about like replacing the thought with a more positive thought or just like letting go of thought as it relates particularly to my training in therapy.

Like this was something that I kind of I would hear from like supervisor and mentor figures and never made like quite sense to me and still doesn't,

Which maybe is a part of what has pushed me kind of in my own path.

But it seems to me that across like all different forms of what you might call therapy,

There's a central thread of unwinding,

Like dismantling incorrect thoughts about myself and about the world,

The things that have been internalized from society and from my experiences.

This seems to be a pretty central thing to all different forms of therapy.

There's this process of unlearning that goes on.

But I had one mentor figure that said something like,

You always need to replace it with something new,

Like something different,

Like a different kind of belief.

That's the part that never made sense to me because isn't that also just kind of like arbitrary or aren't you also sort of internalizing that from some other view?

Whereas for me,

The deepest healing comes from just like seeing through all of that stuff and then not replacing it with something new.

Now just living in this place that is kind of new,

But maybe that's the difference between something you might call Eastern or like a Zen sort of perspective where it's like just wipe it all away,

See through it,

And don't replace it with something new.

But maybe there can be a sort of ungroundedness of not replacing it with then something positive or a new view or a new thing to hold on to because then in that place,

There's nothing that I can cling to anymore,

I guess,

Like the clinging.

And so without that,

There's sort of no longer really in control.

But that can be a huge relief if you see that you never were and never could really be in control.

And then you can just sort of be in a more authentic way.

I don't know if that's something that you've thought of in your work because I know you do a lot of one on one work too.

Absolutely.

Yeah,

I'm on the same page because I also sometimes question myself regarding what we do.

For example,

The course that we have created together,

Inner Child Healing.

Now,

I am sure it has its wonderful benefits and a lot of people experience healing and sometimes it is the first step towards moving towards awareness and it is important.

But again,

There is something which I think I mentioned to you this,

I was reading this book by Buddha's book and it's called The Buddha Said.

So in this book,

Buddha said something profound and he said that the healing happens on itself.

And I think something related to what you just said that the healing happens on itself.

You just don't get into the way and there is a magical nature to awareness which automatically heals everything.

So if we just can be aware and maybe do something,

Again that doing comes in place but something like a practice of Vipassana where you are just observing everything that's coming into.

So somehow the thing that is coming into your existence,

Your thoughts,

Your emotions and all those things,

If you can just observe it with conscious awareness,

The healing will happen automatically.

They automatically get healed.

There is an automaticity to existence which heals things.

But it's just that because we come in the way of that and we try to want to change that and do something about it that we cause more stress to ourselves.

So then I was also questioning this whole thing about inner child healing and past therapy and all those things that maybe they are the first steps but eventually that might not be the answer.

What do you think about this?

I think even the way I view inner child healing and I try to offer the caveat of it's just a name for an experience.

I think maybe,

At least the way I view it,

It's something that can help me let go of trying to exert or it can help me stop pushing or maybe pushing away what you might call the inner child.

I view that as a sort of energy felt in the nervous system of a me that I don't want anyone to see or past experiences that I don't want to think about.

It's something that might have kind of collected and gathered in my experience that causes me to just generally be tight and to do something like an inner child visualization might be to kind of encounter that part of myself that I'm sort of holding on to or disavowing or rejecting or whatever it is,

And allow it to breathe a little bit in a way,

Like a kind of creative way in which it might actually release like that part of me that's clenched and holding on might have some opportunity to let go and release.

Just in the way that I view it,

I don't use it in order to replace something or to create a new story.

For me,

It just happens in more of a creative play kind of thing,

Just the facilitation of something experiential where I can maybe feel a feeling that's been there for so long,

But I just clench up when it starts to come to the surface,

But maybe through that kind of exercise I can allow it to happen.

It's like it can happen through me and sort of be released,

Kind of like a wave of water that has a dam built up against it so I feel all this internal pressure,

And that could be something that allows a hole maybe through the dam or just allows the dam to go down.

I think the person has to be willing to experience that rush of water and also to not know if the water is just going to keep going forever or if it's going to go and then pass,

But maybe more water will come in the future.

That's kind of the way that I view that.

Yeah,

That's a beautiful way to see it.

The question that I have about it is that,

And I'm kind of questioning myself when I do this practice also,

The thing about visualization is,

I'm just kind of wanting to explore this,

Is it a practice that takes us away from that conscious present moment?

Because what's happening in visualization is that I'm bringing up,

And I think I don't know why we are naturally shifting to this topic of inner child,

But I think this is a part of it only,

That when I'm bringing up someone in my visualization,

Let's say my past self,

My question is,

Is it taking me away from present moment conscious awareness?

Is it helping or is it that a better way to approach it is to just be in the present and see what comes up rather than doing any visualization?

Yeah,

It's a good question.

I think my response to that is,

I guess the guidance that I would give is to really try to allow it to happen as a present experience as opposed to trying to make it be anything.

I like thinking of it as the experience of a dream.

Dreams are present moment experiences,

And they're just happening.

I'm not really making them happen,

I'm just sort of a part of it.

So I do think there's a way in which that experience,

I close my eyes and I just sort of put myself in an openness to what happens when you say the word,

The inner child,

What do you think of,

In a way that can,

I think,

Be a very present moment experience.

But there might be something different about,

Okay,

Now create this space,

Go back to that time,

Have this interaction where maybe that's more of exerting force over something which may or may not be beneficial relative to how we're talking about it.

But I noticed for myself,

Definitely a preference to,

Again,

Get out of the way,

Maybe just sort of plant seeds in this area and then see what happens.

Yeah,

I think it also makes me think of Carl Jung's method of active imagination.

I think that's different from visualization in the sense that visualization is usually,

Especially as it is practiced in the popular culture today,

Is like kind of forcing an image in your mind.

And making an intention of wanting to see something,

Whereas active imagination is more about just kind of closing your eyes and letting anything that comes up.

Like waiting.

Yeah,

It's like then your unconscious will,

Can throw up anything and that becomes a part of your experience and that is something to explore then.

This is why I like the language of Taoism in this area.

Like if we're saying that to heal the nervous system,

You can't actually do it.

The doing you do is to get out of the way.

Yeah,

The doing itself is treating the nervous system.

Like in Taoism,

There's the principle of wu-wei,

Or at least as I understand it,

Sort of doing,

Not doing,

Or inaction.

Like a way of being where you're getting out of the way and allowing your experience to happen.

And maybe one thing that could be helpful is like,

I know that's sort of the central principle of the art of Judo.

Like the gentle way in which you,

It's a sort of doing,

But you're not exerting any force like you're flowing with what's happening so someone comes and attacks you,

And you don't meet that force with your own force but you like very naturally flow with it and guide it along and then by doing that you become incredibly powerful and you flip this person over because you're using their force against you,

But you're not exerting anything.

Because then you would have a very limited amount of power and you would also run out of power and energy quickly,

Like the nervous system sort of wearing itself out.

But in that sort of doing,

You're just sort of allowing the thing to happen and I wonder if maybe that's a way of potentially viewing how I can heal my nervous system,

Like,

I realized that's a constant practice of mine,

Noticing what is active in my body like what is tense.

What is habitually tightening up,

And then just constantly sort of in quote unquote internal Judo of release release release like open open my,

My stomach constantly,

Like,

Through our time.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Tightening tightening.

And then I can let it open,

Let it open.

So that's what I'm sort of doing but it's like,

I find it so fascinating,

Like how is it that you release your jaw,

Or how is it that you soften the area of the eyes or like,

Let your hands be loose or your feet or your legs like you,

You do it,

But it's this kind of like,

Like,

Feeling exertion or counter exertion of energy.

What do you think about that as a potential description or maybe explanation of how one can do quote unquote,

Or I can heal the nervous system.

Yeah,

I think it's a great question about that.

And you know,

It's,

It's a state of observation it's a state of being conscious of what's happening in the body,

Although,

You know,

I had this doubt previously and you know I kind of got cleared up as I as I contemplated on it but some people ask this question I would love to know your perspective about this,

Is that the present moment experience and being conscious of,

You know,

What's happening in the body for example,

That,

That is very painful for some people.

You know,

In the sense that okay if I,

If I just let's say if I observe what's happening to my body.

So some people who have like chronic illness or,

You know,

Some extreme illness or something like that,

Then it becomes very painful for them to observe it.

And you know I have personally experienced this like for example,

And I think it's a simple example is let's say,

If I have an itch in my arm.

And when I start observing it,

It will intensify like anything.

And then there is it again kind of becomes this just this observation of it also becomes a battle you know it's like a challenge that,

Okay,

How long can I stay with it how long can I observe this and then that pain of,

You know that that irritation of that itch will increase and,

You know,

I will wait for that point for it to go away but it might win then and I will have to then take my awareness away from it because it's so painful.

So,

The question is that how do I stay in my present moment awareness in that flow and in that observation and being conscious,

If my present moment experience is painful.

Yeah.

Maybe that points to the sort of art form of this or it just made me think of,

Like,

The middle way.

Like,

We might,

There might be a tendency to want one answer to be right,

Like,

Always just come back to the present.

Yeah.

But that might be a rigid exertion to some extent,

Like,

I don't know if this is making sense but with the itch,

Like,

I could just scratch the itch and if I wanted to,

I could do that or I could take medication for my pain and make it go away or I could sit with it and experience it differently.

It makes me think of like,

I have acid reflux.

There's like sort of constantly gas that sort of puts pressure on my throat and certainly when I eat certain things that happens but I would take a meprazole is like the major drug that's taken from that and people just take it chronically like you take it every day.

And I took it for a long time.

I didn't really find that it was helping that much.

But the thing that was so annoying is it would make talking kind of hard for me and it would tighten my throat.

There was a time where it was sort of constantly on my mind and constantly annoying.

But I've noticed that the biggest thing that's made it almost a non factor in my life is like my constant,

Allowing of the throat to,

If this makes sense,

Just allowing the throat to be however it is like not exerting any counterforce at all,

Like further tightening up for like,

It might just be slowing down,

Like the way I talk,

Because sometimes if I talk faster,

It will tense up more.

But if I slow down in between my words,

It can like it has a chance to kind of release,

Release,

Release,

Release.

Yeah,

So yeah,

I don't know if that makes sense.

But maybe sometimes there's not a problem with doing something about something if you want to,

Or going out and telling the guy to stop with his motorcycle because I'm doing this,

Like I could do that if I wanted to.

But then there's like sort of an art form of constantly deciding is now a time to step back and just observe is now a time to exert.

I don't know.

So are you saying that,

Do you believe that if we get out of the way,

You know,

Let's say what you mentioned about the,

Excuse me,

The acid reflex and I think I have the same thing with my throat,

My cuff.

So,

You know,

If you get out of the way and if you just let it be,

Are you saying that there will come a point of time where it will heal itself or will that not happen?

It's a good question.

I don't have a kind of final opinion.

Certainly my leaning is to say yes.

Like if I really,

Really do get out of the way.

That's hard because you don't know how much getting out of the way is.

Yeah.

Or like how long do I have to wait with this thing?

Yeah.

And for some people it's like very severe,

Right?

You know,

Some physical pain is so severe that it's just not kind of possible.

I would not say possible,

But very difficult for them to observe it.

You know,

The present moment experience is so painful that they can't let it be because,

You know,

That is a very painful thing.

And then you might judge yourself too or hear someone talking like this and be like,

Well,

That must mean I'm not doing it long enough or I'm not strong enough to do that.

Or hearing that implicit judgment from me in saying that,

Oh,

Well,

You just need to go longer.

Yeah.

I mean,

And that's an interesting part of the human experience because I can never know what someone else's sensory experience is actually like.

I mean,

I have had certainly the experience of like,

I might have,

I have shared about this at the Zen monastery before,

Like the experience of sitting through very intense physical pain,

Reaching a point of finally giving up any sort of like holding on or tightening back against the pain and it vanishes,

But then it can easily come back as soon as I start like exerting any pain,

Any sort of tension in my knees or in my stomach,

Like anything that is resisting or pushing back against the pain,

Like actually fires it up.

But when I move into a place of totally letting it take over and not labeling it at all,

Then there's a way in which it can,

Like it's no longer really there.

It makes me think too of moving into the observer standpoint where there's not so much a me that this is happening to,

If that makes sense.

Like that's the me that I'm watching,

But there's a me that isn't separate from the pain,

Like,

Because that is something I'm,

In a way it's a thought.

I want to be gentle and tentative in talking about that because I totally hesitate to want anyone to hear that and feel like it's judgmental to say,

Oh,

Pain is just a thought.

But I don't mean it in any sort of unique way,

Just like everything is a thought,

Like anything once it's labeled is a thought,

It's not what you're experiencing because what you're experiencing is beyond description.

But when I can't really allow the sensation to live in a place that is not being called anything,

I change it and it becomes in a way okay,

But then it very quickly comes back into a tension of calling it something.

Yeah,

I think what you're saying is very much related to the idea of ego,

In the sense that what also Ramana Maharshi said that it is this strong attachment to this sense of self or this I that we have that creates the suffering.

Because if I have this strong identity,

Then if anything happens to me,

I will suffer.

But as we let go of this strong sense of self or I,

Then if there is no I,

Then who is to suffer then?

There is no one to suffer as such.

So that is a very,

For me also personally,

When I experience this or when I'm having this pain in my body or something like that,

I kind of remind myself that because then it eases the pain because till then it was I am suffering,

Oh my god I am suffering and that is getting exaggerated now because of this I,

I,

I,

I.

But as I let go of this I and I sense,

When I let go of this attachment to I,

That who is this I?

And then it feels as if,

Although in one sense I am one with the pain but I am also kind of separate from the pain where I am not the one who is suffering,

There is no one to suffer as such.

You know in a bit spiritual sense there was someone,

I think I was listening to a call by,

No,

No I was listening,

Yes I was listening to a coaching call,

I was on a coaching call with Michael Bernard Beckwith and he is the founder of Agape International in US,

A spiritual centre and an author.

So he,

Someone asked him that,

You know,

And it was a very tough question for him and it was,

You know,

In the sense she went through a lot of pain and I think she was molested and all those things.

So he,

She asked him that what do I do,

Like my life is ruined and you know I cannot overcome this pain,

It's so painful.

So he said something wonderful there which kind of really relaxed the pain of this woman and he said that your soul cannot be hurt.

So it was in a spiritual sense but I think that was powerful because when,

Till the point that she was identifying with the body and not minimising her pain,

You know,

I am not at all minimising her pain,

I cannot understand what,

You know,

Who someone,

Someone who experiences that,

What they go through,

I cannot understand that.

But still I saw that it eased her pain because till the time she was identifying with the body and she was suffering a lot but the moment he said that,

That your soul cannot be hurt.

So she connected to a part of herself which is kind of,

Which really cannot be hurt.

If it is energy,

Then energy cannot be hurt,

You know,

But something which is physical,

That can be hurt.

So this physical thing,

You know,

Is a kind of like that ego when if we can,

You know,

If I can let go of in that moment,

It can potentially ease my pain.

When I am attached to this like piece of mass that is encapsulated in my skin,

Then I am very,

Maybe susceptible to pain but if I can feel into something more on the level of energy,

There is a possibility for that pain to release.

As you were talking I had a vision of,

See if this makes sense,

But like you being one nerve cell of a universal organism like this big creature and a shift in awareness from you being just the nerve cell and like that's you to a feeling yourself as part of the whole organism.

And like you feel the consciousness of the organism and in that sense it is almost like some wind sort of like brushing against your arm as opposed to being kind of sucked down into just this me that feels a very intense sensation but maybe I can drop into something that is beyond the barrier of me in which it is like the tension just kind of drops.

Yeah,

Right,

Right,

Right.

Yeah,

I think you described it well.

But then again,

You know,

There is something interesting that Buddha said in this book was that even this identity of the spirit is not the answer because again this is also a kind of a spiritual ego.

I am the spirit.

So he said that even when we have that idea,

So he was kind of challenging in that time when Gautama Buddha lived.

So,

You know,

Hinduism was the most dominant religion in India and it still is but at that time he was kind of challenging that the idea because in Hinduism there is a strong concept of Atman which means the spirit or the soul and he said that we have to go beyond even that because that also kind of becomes an ego,

You know,

And that's what happens,

You know,

When someone is connected more to their spirit and they start also developing this ego that you know,

I am more spiritual.

But he said that even to let go of that and beyond that is that nothingness,

You know,

Which is beyond all these concepts which is the answer.

Yeah,

I guess it would depend on the definition of spirit because you can very easily just transport ego into spirit.

It's like,

Well,

I'm the spirit.

Well,

Then you're,

It's just the ego in different clothing or like in that visual,

I could very easily then become this larger organism.

And then it's,

I'm just transporting that one nerve cell to the bigger organism and it still feels like there's some barrier that I'm in this encapsulated organism.

So the answer maybe is in,

You know,

Letting go of there being anything that is solid,

Which is sort of impossible thing again for us to do.

And that's maybe where some of the language in Buddhism and Zen in particular is helpful because they talk about the void or emptiness or like those kind of things as opposed to something that might be interpreted as something solid or like a god or whatever it might be.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

It reminds me also of Nagarjuna when,

You know,

He was meditating with some monks and he was kind of guiding those monks to the path of nothingness,

That void that you're talking about.

So,

You know,

Then there came a point of time where those monks,

You know,

Reached that void and then he said that void the void and that means that this void,

This nothingness also is a concept if you,

And you have to also let go of this as well to,

You know,

To be wherever,

Whatever that state is.

Right,

Right.

I can't remember the story but I just like the words of how it ends.

There's another one like that,

I think in the Zen world where there's a student and teacher,

And the student is like,

Ask the teacher something,

And the responses will throw that out.

And then like the student throws everything out and then they're like,

Okay,

Now what?

I can't remember the last question but the teacher's like,

Okay,

Throw that out too.

It's just like it never ends.

Just like,

Whatever it is,

The thing that feels like you finally arrived at,

Also throw that out and just like keep throwing it out.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And that is why,

You know,

Buddha's path is also known as the path of negation.

In the sense that,

You know,

Most,

I think almost all other cultures,

They are into achieving something,

Wanting to get something,

You know,

Wanting to get salvation or wanting to get somewhere or become spiritual or something like that.

But Buddha's path is not achieving something but letting go of all this,

You know,

Letting go of all these ideas and all these concepts and then you kind of arrive.

Right,

Not in order to get something else.

That's where it seems like,

That's where the big challenge is.

I think that's where it can become so challenging to talk about this stuff and communicate this stuff,

Because maybe there is an implicit desire to arrive at something different so it's almost like,

If you're trying to describe maybe the benefit of this approach to quote unquote healing the nervous system,

There seems like there might be some importance in clarifying like is this actually what you want?

Because maybe you don't actually want the answer that we're providing.

And that would be the thing that blocks from this potential path to healing.

Because,

Well,

Yeah,

But I don't want that really.

Like I want my nervous system to be healed but I don't want to not be the one that is healing it.

So,

Maybe the choice will end up being,

Will I choose to not be healed?

Because that is the deepest thing that I hold on to is like a me that is separate,

While I might be maintaining my suffering and my pain.

That's the deepest thing that I don't want to let go of.

I don't want to do this path of negation,

Because then I have to lose the me that wanted to do it in the first place.

But I think it's just,

That's what makes it also fun.

It's like,

It's this sort of game of playing around that because you can't really talk about it tangibly or directly.

But you can just try to get close to it.

I think the language of science is very similar to the language of the Buddha and the way you're describing it,

Like the path of negation because scientific discovery is not identifying something as right or the truth.

It's like,

How do we discard untruths or negate hypotheses and reveal something that we're constantly getting closer to it.

But if not,

Then I come to a final point and say this is right.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And I think this is also very similar to in general our life journey in the sense that,

For example,

If someone asks that,

What is the purpose of my life?

It is not that I will find that purpose directly,

But it is through eliminating all those things which maybe I don't want to do.

Eventually I will get to what it is actually that I want to do.

And increasingly get closer to it if only you can drop and let go of those things that are not it.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah,

Well I totally love this conversation.

I think it was a kind of a very different way of approaching the nervous system.

Rather than the traditional,

As we discussed in the beginning of having those labels and describing and holding on to past concepts.

Just one thing that was also coming to my mind as we were talking about those labels is,

Osho,

I was listening to an audiobook by Osho and he was describing his experience of flowers.

So he was saying that he was a professor in a university,

So he used to go to a garden for a walk.

And in this garden,

He used to enjoy the flowers a lot.

So then there was another professor who started coming with him and every time he would start labeling the flowers.

This is the species and this is the species and this is that.

And Osho started getting agitated and then he asked him that,

I would prefer if you go for your own walk and I would like to go by myself and he said why?

And I'm telling you about all these flowers and he said I don't want to listen to your concepts or labels of these flowers.

I want to experience them in this very moment.

So this story I think was really profound for me to let go of that intellectual labeling and knowledge of the past and to experience something which is right now,

Right here in this moment.

And I think this is which I totally enjoyed about this.

Yeah,

Me too.

It sort of allows the flowers to become new and no different from me or anything else.

Maybe that could be something to leave.

It just gave me the visual.

I think about this sometimes as a practice.

But if the listener is interested in something to play with,

I kind of like the idea of thinking of myself as like a flower,

But maybe one that doesn't have to be labeled in a particular way or with a certain name.

And I just think it provides kind of a cool model for natural,

Like physical posture to like my roots are in the ground and I'm like,

I'm sort of naturally unfolding toward the energy of the sun that is feeding me.

And I think that potentially can be a way of like the negative path of noticing the way I might be like exerting my flower self to be a certain like kind of flower.

If only I could just like let go of that habitual exertion and sort of unfold naturally opening to what's around me and to the sun and feeling how the earth is nourishing from me from below to and from everywhere and there's nothing I ever had to do in order to be this flower and even it's not a flower.

That's the word.

It's just this like happening.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

As you said that I started,

You know,

Started swaying like a flower the way it does in a wind.

Sounds good.

Well,

As always,

Thanks for I think there's something healing just about this kind of interacting.

Yeah,

I can notice any tension sort of release it and through interacting in a way that feels authentic that to me is like a healing of the quote unquote nervous system in a way.

Yes,

Same here and it's,

You know,

It's also for me it's also seeing the kind of the same thing from two different perspectives,

You know,

I always feel that,

You know,

We all are,

You know,

Just,

We have divided this one again it's a concept but we have divided this kind of universal consciousness or one single being,

You know,

Whatever you want to call it God or something into many parts because we just wanted to see from different angles and see from different perceptions.

So,

I believe that we are talking about the same thing but we are looking at the same thing from,

You know,

Two different angles it's like having that nervous system in between us and looking at it from two different angles.

Yeah,

I love that.

Well cool,

I look forward to exploring with you in whatever we explore next time.

Yes,

Looking forward to it.

Thank you for joining us in the What Is Now?

Experience.

We hope that you liked the episode.

If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation,

Then you can share those ideas through your comments.

We would love to know.

Stay tuned for the next episode.

Namaste.

Reviews

loved the information and i love what both Saqib and Charles bring to the conversation. i took away a few choice gems that were shared. i have one technical issue with the talk. Charles voice is softer than Saqib’s, so even if your audio levels are the same charles voice doesn’t cut through like Saqib’s. because of this i had to hold the phone closer when Charles talked and hold the phone away when Saqib spoke 😊

Very interesting discussion. Thank you 🙏 both for sharing 🧡🧡🧡
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