No-Self, Trauma, And The Spiritual Path | Sangha Q&A

In this Sangha Q&A, we explore some of the most common questions and misunderstandings around the Buddhist teaching of no-self. We discuss healing, the difference between understanding and realizing, witnessing versus a witness, accountability, selfing, and how to work skillfully with difficult emotions on the spiritual path.

The discussion emphasizes that freedom comes not from improving or destroying the self, but from investigating whether a separate, independent self can actually be found.

This was recorded from a Live Event.

Transcript

The selfing and ego, And I am using the term selfing much more, And that is definitely a Paul Hederman term, Selfing. And I realize why he does that. Because when we say the ego, It's often we can say like i have an ego or that's my ego i know this is just my ego asking this so there's still an identification with it as something right and then it's like we take the ego as the ego is the one that's the problem it's the it's the uh it's the one that's creating you know always stirring up the trouble and the worry and the fear and all that and the desire but then we forget the selfing over here that's kind of like oh look i was so compassionate oh look i i did this oh look i'm meditating right And then we start identifying with self, But we're just doing it in a different way, Right? So I do like that distinction of selfing, And I'll probably say selfing slash ego, Kind of like you put, Philippa, Because I think ego is a word that we're very familiar with. But by saying selfing as well, We also eliminate, Hopefully, That potential of us kind of saying, Well, My ego is a problem, But my higher self my true self, Right? That's just more egoing, More selfing, Right? So we want to be in any way that we are thinking about ourselves, In any way that we're thinking about ourselves. There's always going to be identification and suffering and suffering and this doesn't mean that we it doesn't in fact it doesn't mean i should clarify that Because maybe there's a thinking, Okay, There's planning that needs to happen, There's something that you want to be doing, And there's thinking towards that. And there, Of course, We can still think. In fact, I would argue we think much clearer, Much better. Because we're not burdened down but oh if that plan doesn't happen then what's going to happen to me what's going to happen to me you know what if it doesn't go the way that i expect it to without that right we're able to see more clearly and go yeah i think that would be a good idea maybe i'll do this maybe i'll do this live at this time yeah and then we'll see how it plays out right there's not a me at the end that's going to get anything out of it because there is nothing here solid to get anything it's just different conditions arising and changing and yet there is experience happening And we can clearly see that, And we can think, As long as we're clear that there's nothing solid behind the thinking. There's no thinker behind the thinking. And that's the investigation part. That's what we should be investigating. Is there a thinker behind the thinking? And that's where the practice of self-inquiry I find to be really helpful because it just, You know, We're thinking about ourselves, We're thinking about how irritated we are about something, Right? And there's this belief that there is just a me that's so irritated and it's so solid and it's so real. And it's just an assumption. But when we question, You know. Who's irritated? To whom do those thoughts belong? It's such a Zen Japanese way or Chan Chinese way of kind of cutting through, Right? Just cutting through all the minutia and just, Oh, I just assumed it. I just assumed it. And that's the problem is that we have just assumed this our entire lives. We haven't questioned it. And so when we question it and we look for it, Can you find it? It's like you're, I've used the example many times, The Wizard of Oz, Right? Everyone thought it was this big, Great, Great, Scary Oz. And then Toto kind of pulls the curtain back and everyone, And Dorothy I think takes a look and goes, Oh, You're not this great big Oz that I thought you were with all these special powers. You're just this little old man pulling these levers. And you can't unsee that. When the great booming voice comes now, Dorothy's like. . . It's just a little old man, That's what he does. He's behind there trying to pull the little levers, Trying to stir up stuff. Right? And then you see it for yourself. You're like, Oh, It's not at all what I thought it was. Activity happening. Activity happening. Thinking happening. And it happens. What I find is that it's just Life is still happening. Preferencing still happening. But it's just happening without this burden, This constant obsession thinking about ourselves, Or even just very so rarely, Even just where it catches you, But it's just, It's a moment, It's just, Oh, I see you, Maura. To whom does that thought belong? Oh, That's right, Because the habit is still there. You're still functioning, You're still here, You're able to think, Decisioning happening, Planning happening. We always think that, Oh, I'll fall apart. I'll fall apart if I, If without the separate self, I would fall apart. And so see for yourself. See, You've already been seeing it. In just the mindfulness of coming in from I'm angry to anger arising. Did you fall apart when you felt the anger? Or did you start to feel more whole? Did you start to feel more at ease? Did you start to see things more clearly? Did you start to see maybe things from the other person's perspective? Right? Did it open up your way of looking at what happened? Or did it keep you narrow? I would look for yourself and see. Look for yourself. It is, Buddhism is a very scientific path in that respect. In fact, It doesn't work by, You can't just believe what someone said and said, I'm just going to believe that the separate self isn't real. It does need to be investigated to see for yourself, To see for yourself. So conscious you're asking to explain something like trauma that affects the brain and nervous system and and in turn our experiences without the concept of selfing so uh Someone, Again, And I will say this, Someone who was in, You know, Has had a lot of trauma. Has had a lot of. Harmful experiences. I wouldn't approach them and say, Well, There is no self. I don't think that's helpful. What I would say is that let's feel that in the body so when it's arising when something gets triggered so again we can kind of see how you don't when someone who's experienced trauma or even just again this is really our entire experience Conditions arise. We get triggered by something. But let's say it's something very traumatic, Something that was really hurtful that happened. And so there is greater intensity in the nervous system. There's greater amygdala activation. There's more stress and anxiety. It comes on in a more intense way, Right? I wouldn't walk up and say, Well, There is no self that this is happening to. That's not helpful. That's not helpful. But I would say, Right? Feel what's here in the body, Okay? Worry, Fear, Probably fear. Or not feeling safe, Right? And maybe we start with that. Okay, There's a feeling of unsafety in the body. So we can recognize it and we can feel it, Right? Be with it. And the more that you can feel the fear in the body, Right, And depending upon, Again, How deep the trauma, How deeply the trauma is embedded, It is still conditioning, But it is deep, It can be very deeply embedded depending upon what happened. And whether you're doing this like with your, Whether you're with a therapist or with someone that can kind of help you go through this so that you're not alone, Because it is very difficult to come in and feel things, Particularly the intensity around trauma. You feel it, And you feel that sense of, Okay, I don't feel safe. Okay, Let's feel that. Breathe, Feel it, Allow yourself to be with it in the body. Tell me where you feel it in the body, Right? And I might ask them to kind of explore, Where do you feel it? I feel the shoulders, I feel the tension here, I feel, You know, A center in my solar plexus, It feels very solid and dense, Like, Okay, Let's go there, And let's just breathe and feel that, Right? And as there's after a minute or two of that, And then what else is here. What else is here right okay there's a feeling of shame oh okay shame's here too okay let's let's be with that let's open up to that and as we keep doing that and keep exploring what's happening right there is you know the feelings arising the thoughts arising and then they're passing and then they're passing and and so and i would i would imagine a good therapist and i'm not a therapist so this is why when i do work with people uh i mean i'm i very often will recommend, Okay, You might need to see a therapist, There's something more deeply going, Deep going on here. If it's not that deep kind of trauma, I work with them on that level as well. And in fact, I still work with them on this level, But I want them working with a therapist as well. But as we're going through it and teaching them to really open up, To feel, To be with what's here, To give the attention to these feelings, To these wounds inside, As they're doing this deeper work, It's a very similar work, But deeper, Probably a little bit different with the therapist, Then there is a point. There is a point. So it's not like I would start on day one with that person and say, Now see, There was no self. I would just say, OK, I noticed how you feel. Yeah. Feel more different right the thoughts come the feelings come the emotions come and go you didn't ask to be triggered right but it arises right and so we can notice that yeah just certain conditions arise and then it arises and you and it comes and it goes and we kind of keep the focus a little bit more on that see the impermanence they come and they go and so there's still a sense of self that this is happening to but but there's a starting to notice that yes these thoughts and feelings and emotions i'm not asking for them but they're happening and i can see why they're happening past conditioning and then got triggered by this particular situation, And it's arising. And so there's a starting to see, Yes, It's all coming and going. And then once there's a sense of like, Okay, The trauma is no longer affecting someone's ability to navigate life any longer, Right, Where it's no longer so debilitating, That's when we start kind of slowly introducing, Okay, Now let's have in the experience. Okay, So you go through, Because there's still feelings and thoughts and emotions arising and then you're allowing what's here and then at the end you're like okay and can we find an owner of that experience? Can we find an owner? Right and then it's it's at the right time so it's the right gift at the right time so this isn't always the right gift um at the right time you have to see where people are at so i teach um you know i'm a buddhist teacher a spiritual teacher i teach no self but i also do teach a lot of compassion a lot of self-compassion and trying to gauge where people are and bring the the especially when i'm one-on-one with people but in a group setting like this what's brought the most amount of relief here. I did go through therapy. I did have a ton of wounds and I had to be with my own wounds and I had to have self-compassion and feel them. But what has brought the ultimate amount of relief is no longer identifying with the separate self and that's what feels from this perspective is what I'm most interested in sharing. Is helping people get that last like okay the path has taken you this far there's been a lot of healing going on fantastic a lot more of a sense of ease a lot more of a sense of being okay fantastic fantastic that's how it happened here now let's go that next step when when they're ready right gift right time So conscious, Just in your follow-up question. And Janine, I'll get back. I will come back to yours. This is so your question saying there seems to be a saying that there is a separate self, There's the observer, But there's the self connected to what happens in the body. When people are saying the observer or the witness, They're truly not understanding the teaching of no self. Any, There is nothing here that is a thing. That is a thing. And I do see that. And I can picture exactly where I was like 17 years ago, Because I know exactly where I was at that moment. And even saying to someone, Oh, I just did this meditation, And I was the witness. I was the witness, Right? And you know what? Saying I'm the witness, There's that sense of kind of pulling back a little bit from experience, Not being so caught up in it. And that's a good step. That's a good step. But then we go back again and we go, Who's the witness? Witnessing happening. There is no witness. Observing happening. There is no observer. Everything is activity, A verb. This is the meaning behind, Yes, You exist, But not the way you think. We each think that we exist as a solid, Independent being. Each of us exists as activity, Thinking happening, Feeling happening, Talking happening. Memorying happening. You know, Planning happening, Decisioning happening. It's all activity. And this is what we have mistaken. And so when people even say, Oh, You've got to let go of that. And good advice. Yeah, Let go. Let go of the suffering. Let go of it. But the belief that there is something here that could actually hold on. I mean, That's another illusion. So we kind of let go because we're kind of white knuckling it the whole time, Like, Oh, I should let go, I should let go. Right? But when you see, There's nothing here to hold on. It's just everything's moving through and happening. Right? This is the flow of life, Right? The Tao, Right? Just life is happening, Harmony, Non-striving effort, Wu-wei, Right? The letting life unfold, Thinking will still happen. Planning will still happen. Decisioning will still happen. Angering will still happen. Irritating will still happen. Be much softer and much more appropriate in the situation, And then it'll be over. Right? And it's just this kind of flow of life. Right? I hope that helps, Conscious, I hope that helps. And Janine, I'm going to go to Bob's question, If you don't mind, Because I know he has to leave us in 10 minutes. And so I don't want to leave Bob behind here. So where you're asking, Can we realistically separate ourselves from ourself and be a person who acts in a self-directed way and isn't self part of self-directed? A lot of selves in that question. Try it for yourself and see. Try it for yourself and see. The ego, The selfing puts up a lot of aversion to this. Who would you be without me? Who would you be without me constantly questioning what everyone's thinking about you? Who would you be without me worrying about what's going to happen to you in the future? Who would you be without me regretting everything you did in the past? Who would you be without me second-guessing all this stuff? Who would you be? You'd be lost, Right? This is what we're thinking is helping. Is it helping us? It's what's getting in the way of life. It's what's getting in the way of our relationships. It's what's getting in the way of us feeling okay in each moment. Because it's never enough. Nope. Now you got to get over there. Oh, Nope. Now you got to get over there. Now you got to get that. It'll never be enough. And even in the choosing what you want or the not want, Right? Choosing happening. Yeah. And notice how when you recognize choosing happening, Decisioning happening, Brain processing happening, And without that craving, I want that, I'll be so happy if I get it, Because this is where we talk about the wanting where it's a problem is the, I'll be so happy. If I just get my latte, If I just get my chocolate cake, If I just get that praise or acknowledgement, If I just get that new car, If I just get, If I can just get this, I'll be so happy, Right? And think about how that craving influences our choosing in that moment, We often choose the short-term pleasure, Give me the phone, What can I get out of here, Some short-term pleasure versus can I just sit with what's here and actually feel just that sense of craving in the body, That sense that something's, I need something that I feel incomplete, Because the thought, It's simply so much of the time we feel the sense of I'm not complete, Because the thought tells us I can't be okay here, We're sitting here perfectly fine, Perfectly safe. Many of us, Not everyone, But many of us in very comfortable conditions, We don't have to be millionaires to be having good safe conditions. Right, Where we're perfectly safe and yet a thought pops in our head. Oh, Even the thought just pops in, I'm bored. I'm bored. There's nothing going on and there's this immediate. . . I am bored, Right? One moment feeling fine, And then the selfing comes in, I'm bored. Look at how boring your life is. Everyone else is having so much fun. And so you better get over there and do something. And so maybe we wander around the house with a dark cloud over our heads because we're just feeling, Oh, My life sucks. I can't believe this, Right? Or we recognize. . . Oh! To whom does that thought belong? To whom does that thought belong? And in that, We're no longer caught up in the craving. And the wisdom and the compassion is now in the driver's seat. Yeah, It's just, Of course it's going to come in and say it's border. Of course it's going to say, No, You should get over there, And you should be doing this, And your life would be better if you were over there. Of course it's going to say all these things, Right? But you see it and you're like, That's not me. And you don't have to identify with it. So in the choosing, It's amazing how much better the choosing is when it's not coming from the grasping from the craving. Of a me that's going to finally feel complete when I get over there. Because you're not, The thought created the idea that you're incomplete. And then it dangles the little carrot out in front to say get over there and then you get there and for a moment it goes away because you got there you got the object only for it to come right back up again only for it to come right back up again So Bob, When you're saying what about people who control their impulses and think long term, Is that not also self? Yeah, It could be. Yeah, Controlling impulses and some people have a lot of willpower, Some people don't, Depends on their conditioning. Depends on their conditioning. I have found I could control my impulses for certain things to a certain degree, Maybe till 5 p. M. Then you're like, Nope. Now, You know, The stress of the day knocks the willpower out. I would I would argue it's a very. . . It's an existing filled with a lot of suffering. It might look good on the outside. Look, They don't do anything. They don't eat anything bad for themselves. Like we can see this with the people, With someone who's like obsessed about, I only put healthy food in my mouth. I don't ever put anything bad in my mouth. And they're being presented with food. Is there white flour in there? Is there sugar in there? Is there salt in there? And they're obsessed with it, Right? And it looks like, Oh my gosh, Look at them, You know, Concerned about their long-term health and controlling their impulse to have the cookie and only eating the healthy food. It's a lot of suffering. And for whatever their conditions are, They have a little bit more willpower. For whatever their conditions, They have more willpower. But it's not freedom. It's not freedom. Oh, Thanks. Thanks, Philippa, For mentioning that. Yeah, I did just put a talk up about that. Yeah. I can't remember the name of it either. It was about preferences, I think. And Angela, I'm going to come back to you in a minute because I just want to get back to Janine's question. Oh, Actually, Let me go to Janine and then T, I'm going to actually T, I'm just going to come to you and then I promise Janine, Because I know you usually stay till the end. I promise I'm not going to forget you here. Because I think this might be an easier or just a quicker question. So T, When you're saying no thinker behind the thinking, Just curious, Where is the line about accountability of self decisions versus no self? Or is about how long one is accountable to the point of beating the self down? So, Great question, Because ultimately, Absolute reality, Right, There is no one responsible. There isn't. Now, On a conventional basis, If I do something wrong, If I get caught speeding, Right, I'm going to have to pay the consequences of that ticket, Right? There is something, You know, It's like, Yes, The law of cause and effect is still in place. There will be consequences happening. But what wouldn't happen is, Is like I think you said the beating yourself up. Oh, I can't believe I did that. Oh my god, And I got caught and I should, That should never happen again. There's just a recognition. Yep, I was speeding, I got caught. Gotta pay the fine. Got to pay the fine. Yeah. Yeah, So, But it also, The implications are just immense in recognizing there is no one here, No one, Not nothing. No one, No solid independent being here. Whatever is coming out of Meredith's mouth. Is the result of trillions of previous causes and conditions, Of TU coming on this, Of just trillions of conditions that are coming out. There is no one independent here, Independent of all the causal conditions, That's saying, No, Let's go that way versus that. It's always conditioned. It's always conditioned. If you take someone who is brought up in an inner suburb in the U. S. And there's a lot of gang violence and there's not a lot of opportunities for, You know, Seeing role models that are living a life other than maybe gangs or drugs or violence. You know, If that's the majority of what you're experiencing, The likelihood of you being a gang member and being involved criminal activity is incredibly high. It would have to be an amazing condition. Some grandmother that comes in and says, You're special, And you're smart, And you're going to study, And this is how you're going to get yourself out of this situation, Or some teacher that does it. But barring some other condition, The majority are going to go that path. And then when they commit the crime and we look at them and we go, Yeah, OK. There's consequences for the actions, But the way that we penalize people for doing things when it's like, If you had all their causes and conditions, How could you be any different? If we see, I kind of think of this when we see like kind of old English times, And you see a young kid who steals a loaf of bread, And they want to do something horrible, Cut his hand off, Or do something horrible. And you think, Well, The kid was starving. Of course he was going to steal a loaf of bread. Of course he was, Right? So we kind of can see it in certain situations, And then in other situations, You know, We don't. We kind of think, Oh, No, It's all the individual. And then think about, About how when we when someone's been unkind to us or someone's done something that's was hurtful and How easily it is to feel that there was someone person something? Independent and solid over there that hurt something independent and solid here But when I can see that I am the result of just all of my causes and conditions. I didn't choose my DNA I didn't choose how my brain start to white wired up through all the experiences of my life. I didn't choose my height I didn't choose the color of my eyes eyes, The color of my hair, I didn't choose the sound of my voice, I didn't choose any of this. It's all just trillions of conditions arising. And then based on those conditions, If enough stress is happening, If enough hurt has been happening, Yes, When this, You know, Interdependent, Interconnected, Impermanent arising hits another one, Sometimes it can come off and hurt, Because there's already hurt here. And when you see that, When you with the realizing of that, Right, Is the falling away of the anger and the hatred towards the other person. I could no sooner hate that person than I could the wind that blew down my tree. It would make no sense. The causes and conditions blew down the tree. The causes and conditions caused that anger. Now, I can see that of course there's, You know, Hurting happening perhaps, Right? If someone's unkind to us, If someone's unkind to us, Hurting would still happen. I wouldn't not feel that. Of course we would feel that, Right? You can be with it. And there's even a recognition of like, Perhaps I can uh you know perhaps i should set a boundary with this person or i don't you know it's maybe not healthy to be around this person right now they're going through a lot and but there wouldn't be the hatred and the anger towards them that would be the difference and by felipa by bob good to see you guys thanks for your help in the chat felipa That's the difference. That's the difference, The hatred and the anger towards that other person. Wouldn't be there. Because think about if someone hurts us, And then we. . . And then we even say, Well, OK, I'm going to set a boundary. I'm not going to see this person anymore. But if we still carry around the judgment and the anger and the hatred, We're still in a prison. And we're not seeing things clearly. And yes, Michelle, Exactly, Tattoos on the Heart by Father Gregory Boyle. Yeah, I mean he works with inner city kids that are in gangs and really he's the condition that has changed the trajectory of so many lives. Of so many lives. And so, Chiara, I'm going to, I got to get back to Janine because I don't want to, I might, It might get to the point where I can't see your question, Janine, And then I am going to get your question, Chiara, Which is a great question. Okay, So Janine. You had a situation this weekend. There was a group having lunch, And one of the group, A family member, Spoke like this. They said, I have a terrible landlord. She never does anything for me. She's really terrible. Of course, The landlord, Oh, Is me, Is you are the landlord. And you went into selfing as you found it rude to talk about you in the third person and to say false things about you as a landlord. I practice RAIN, And it still hurt. Yeah, It's still, I mean, That would hurt me too, As well, By the way, Janine, If I'm sitting there. So it's your mom, I think, Is complaining about the landlord, And you're sitting right there. Like, That would hurt. When we're doing mindfulness practices, When we're doing self-compassion. Practices. It doesn't necessarily mean the hurt goes away right away, At least. It doesn't mean that. We're not doing the practices to say make the hurt go away. We're we're doing it to start to feel more settled, To be okay with the hurt, Right? To get out of the story that's amplifying the hurt, Amplifying the pain, Amplifying the suffering, And instead being with the hurt, Like that is a hurtful situation, Yeah. And so kindness to yourself, It's a difficult situation to be in. So in doing rain, In maybe some self-compassion, Also just saying, Yeah, That hurt, It does hurt. Yeah, And it might take a little bit before the sting of that hurt really completely dissipates. It will. Time has a way of healing these things. But I think if we come to our practice, Because we think, Well, It should take away the hurt. Then we're not meeting what's here. If hurt's here, Then hurt needs our attention. It needs our attention. And too often I do see this because people will say, I did self-compassion and it didn't work. I'm like, What do you mean it didn't work? It didn't take the pain away. It's not meant to take the pain. It's meant to bring you into it, And it does lessen it. And in many situations, It does completely go away. It depends on what it is that happened. It depends on what happened. But something like that, I can see where, Yeah, That's going to hurt for a little bit longer. So just more compassion for yourself. More breathing. I would say, Because I think you've definitely at least been coming here for a few years, I would think it's appropriate after doing the rain. To add on that extra N, And to say to who does this heart belong. I would think it's very appropriate for you, Janine, To be questioning. Feel first don't deny the feelings right right so this in fact does tie into your question kiara it's not you know as long as we're acknowledging the hurt we're acknowledging the anger so it's the recognizing it and then allowing ourselves to feel it it already in that moment. In the recognizing it's happening because we're either lost in the anger and the hurt and it's just We're so getting tossed around in it. Or we're coming in and we're feeling it and we're no longer telling the story if we're feeling it so that already starts to soften it a little bit it doesn't become this existential uh anger or hurt it becomes more like okay yeah because life does have moments where we're going to still feel anger moments where we're going to be hurt we're not we're not turning into robots but i wouldn't say i wouldn't say to carry the hurt to me just at least the language i wouldn't and to janine it's not like carrying it's like, Oh, I got to carry this hurt, But feeling the hurt. Just acknowledging okay the hurt's going to be here for a while i don't know when it's going to pass it will pass eventually but the more that you can accept what's here and acknowledge what's here and and also just really coming into those feelings as deeply as you can if it's really intense also like where do you feel it in the body where's that tension where's that tightness where's that dullness right and then to breathe space into that because there is a a sense of seeing like oh yes this is just arising and passing even if it's not really coming all the way through to no self there is a sense that this is just coming and going And so it's not that we're carrying around the hurt or the anger, But we're acknowledging it and we're allowing ourselves to feel it. We're allowing ourselves to be with what's here. We kind of have this idea that presence means bliss and happiness and the status you know always being ecstatic that presence is just being with what's here direct experience being with what's here if we're not struggling against the hurt if we're not struggling against the anger and we're really truly here feeling it direct experience it loses its power right? But it might still be there for a bit. So whatever it is that you're going through, Chiara, To really be kind to yourself, To really allow yourself to feel it. And then also to remember that we do have practices, And you've just, You've just, Angela, You reminded me, Because we mentioned to you on Tuesday, Do some tonglen, Compassion practice, Do some loving kindness meditation, Because what those practices are doing are increasing our capacity, First of all, For compassion, But they're pulling the thread out of the story, And the story is what's carrying it around. And it, And it, It So it opens up our heart in a way that allows us to see this from different angles. So I would also recommend some Tonglen or some loving kindness meditation as a way to also if you're really, You know, It's just really embedded in there pretty deeply. Use the practices, The right medicine for what it is that's ailing you. So if, You know, Rain and it's still there and there is still some resistance to it, Do a loving kindness. Compassion tonglen practice. Okay and thanks for putting that in there Ruth because it is great yes he's amazing he's amazing Okay, So I hope Chiara, I hope that helped and to Janine as well, I hope that helped. Okay, We're still going to feel things, We're still going to feel things. That's another kind of misconception of spirituality and awakening. Is that it's just bliss, And I'm just unaffected by anything. Oh, They just yelled at me and called me all these horrible names. Oh, It just went right past me, Right? And sometimes, Sometimes, Depending on the situation, It might, And then sometimes it won't. And this is really what most of us find in our experience on this path. Sometimes it does, And then sometimes, For whatever the conditions, It doesn't, Right? And what I do find, Though, If ever someone's being unkind, Is being mean, Hurtful, Like, Yes, We should feel that. We should feel that. It won't last but and this is the the thing in our experience of the world right we experience the world through polarity up down hot cold uh pain pleasure gain loss praise blame right this is the way we experience the world we think enlightenment means i should only feel pleasant i should only feel gain no one should ever be unkind to me like that's just not the reality of the world that we live in because of so many different conditions People are rising under different types of situations, And we're kind of interacting, And everyone coming together, And it's like, Yeah, We're still going to experience these things. But it's really how we experience, How we relate to what it is that's happening. And it is the pushing back on the unpleasant experiences that creates so much suffering inside for us. It shouldn't be happening. They shouldn't have said that. Why did they say that to me? I'm so spiritual now. I'm so peaceful now. And now they've taken my peace away from me, Right? Recognize here it is, Here's the selfing, Allow the feelings, And to keep inquiring, Right, What else is here, And this is another really important part, Chiara, And I know you know this, Janine, In doing the RAIN acronym of mindfulness, As we keep inquiring, And what else is here, What else is here, Because when someone's been, Maybe they've dismissed us, Or they're saying something awful about us, Right, Often below that is that kind of, That deep-seated of, Oh, I'm unworthy, There's something wrong with me. And we want to be able to get to that eventually right so when we recognize okay here's the hurt or here's the anger and we allow the anger to be here i can't tell you how many times in in anger and especially when i'm working with someone on this and then we allow the feelings like give anger your attention it's okay that it's here it's okay that it's here it's okay to feel it and after a minute or two maybe a few minutes and what else is here oh shame unworthiness not enough ah okay let's let that into right because there's these these under like when the anger comes out or the jealousy comes out right underneath there is the fear there's not going to be enough for me not not enough left for me right the anger comes out because someone spoke to me in a certain way but it's really this feeling like oh but i feel unworthy i don't feel uh i i feel uh like i'm somehow broken and they really saw the real me right there's something deeper in there and so we want to keep bringing out all those feelings to be with them as best we can and then to inquire and so definitely janine and kiara i'm not sure how far you are along in your practice but i know offer this to everyone but where you feel appropriate then to ask the question and to whom does this hurt belong and to whom does this anger belong once you have really gone through recognizing allowing the feelings inquiring so you keep circling back and nurturing what's here until there really is a sense of like maybe not that the hurt feeling entirely gone but there's a feeling of feeling a little bit more centered a little bit more at ease not so threatened and to whom did that anger belong right when we ask the question we're not looking for an answer it's meant it's meant to pull the curtain back on the assumption that we have made that there is an independent solid me that was anger angry anger arising and passing. Yeah, And just as you're saying, Kira, Because you don't want to engage anymore because they're just being passive aggressive and cold. So you might also find, OK, If someone's being passive aggressive, I also would not want to engage with that person, Right? I wouldn't want to have anger towards them. And I would see the passive aggressive behavior as conditioning, Right? It's their behavior. I wouldn't put it on the person. But the behavior is there that often we're afraid then to even set the boundary. That we need to set with this person because what will they think of me and I know I'm too afraid to do it and we we confuse we think oh if I don't set the boundary I'll only suffer a little but really we end up suffering a lot more because that anger and that resentment it just continues to stew inside of us and I have a really I have a course on inside timer setting boundaries because I think it is really important that we do know how to set boundaries but not to do it from a place of of ego, Of judging, Of anger, Right, That we know how to come in and feel and say, Yeah, This person is suffering. It's not right to be around them anymore. I don't feel a good connection with them. I mean, We only have so much time in the day. And, Well, We don't want to be just cutting everyone out. We don't want to make it the benchmark like, Oh, You can never make a mistake. But we also, There's a recognizing when someone's just, Yeah, The behavior is passive aggressive. It's not kind and yeah i've given them maybe a couple of chances and maybe you've said something to them and you can say something to them like hey uh when you talk to me in that way it pushes me away from you i don't want to be around you when you talk to me that way so i just want you to know that that's what it's doing it's creating distance and and so if it continues i'm probably not going to be around you right it's not like a threat saying if you do that i'm not going to be around but you're saying you're making it clear it is pushing me away I mean, That is the problem, Right? It's pushing you away from them, And they may not be aware of it. So conscious feeling does not mean that there's a self that feels. No. Feeling happening. Feeling happening. But there is no feeler. So this is the loop we keep bringing back. If I'm planning, There must be a planner. If I'm thinking, There must be a thinker. If I'm breathing, There must be a breather. If I'm doing, There must be a doer. And this is what I'm asking you to check. Is there? So when you're feeling, And you're here feeling what's here. Right? You're feeling what's here. Can you find the feeler? Can you find the feeler? Yeah and don't you're not being difficult at all these are wonderful questions wonderful questions and you are a therapist fantastic so this can really help you in your practice so you would know the right time whether to bring this in with a and in fact i would even say in therapy it's it's it's really not the role of therapist to um go to no self not not traditionally um so it's not something you would have to do with your patients but for your own practice like you said you've studied Eastern philosophy for decades, And this is the part you're stuck on. Yeah, So when you're feeling And you're truly feeling, You're having direct experience, Right? Direct experience, Feeling, Seeing, Hearing, Tasting, Smelling, Right? You're directly experiencing what's here, Feeling. So if you come into the body and you feel it for a few breaths, Maybe a minute, Maybe you sit for a minute just to notice, How am I feeling? What's here, Right? Because we're often not aware. We'll even say, Oh, I'm fine. I'm fine. And then it's like, Well, Let's just sit with that for a moment. What are you feeling? And as you feel what's here. Ask yourself, Who's the owner of these feelings? Can you find the one who is feeling, Or is it just feelings happening? So this is important that we take it from this intellectual understanding down into direct experience, Into knowing and seeing. Because I can say this all day, There is no feeler. But until you come in and feel and experience for yourself directly. There will still be a sense of a feeler. There is a sense of a me that, If there's a sense of a me that's making the decisions, If there's a sense of a me that's thinking, Right? It doesn't mean that it's real, But that sense, Yeah, Is there until you keep investigating it and seeing for yourself. Who is feeling? It's an assumption. We take an activity, And everything is activity in the universe. This is not just Eastern religions that are saying this. Western physicists are saying this, Too. Everything in the universe is activity, Including us. It is all activity. And we keep taking activity and trying to turn it into a thing. And that's the mistake. But when you question it, And you're in the feeling. Or you're tasting good food, Right? Who is the taster, Or is it just tasting happening? If you're thinking, And this is a really good too, When we're really thinking and we're going, Oh, I got to make this decision right now. Who's the thinker? Notice how that frees up the thinking. Notice how all of a sudden things open up for us. Right? The thinker. Oh, I need to make the right decision. I need to do the right thing because all my happiness is going to be dependent upon this. Who is the thinker? Because you. Indirect experience. It's an assumption when we're lost in the thinking. It's an assumption when we're lost in the feeling. It's an unchecked assumption. It's simply an unchecked assumption. So we check it. Where's the thinker? Where's the feeler? Where's the decision maker? Where's the doer? And then it's indirect experience saying, I can't find it. So if you can't find it, Is it just that it's hidden? Has it gotten small? No, It didn't exist. It arose through the thinking and the thinking in a particular way about ourselves that kind of gives this appearance of a me. But then we no longer believe the illusion. Because we see the thinking can happen, Feeling can happen. But there's no longer getting caught up in a feeler. And that does make such a difference so that when we are feeling hurt, When we are feeling angry, When we are doubting, Whatever it is that we're experiencing in that moment, Whatever it is that we're feeling, We're able to be with it without making some identity around it oh god this i feel bad this means i'm probably going to feel bad forever right i'm angry it means i'm going to be angry forever it's there's there's more of a looseness than a realizing yeah anger arising anger is here i can see the conditions of how it arose yeah But there's no one that's angry. So conscious what I'm going to suggest. And I know you have another question. I'm going to come back to that here, Too. It's more direct experience questioning, Okay? And so your other question is? Okay, So you're asking, Isn't the self who is speeding and taking responsibility for the ticket a self, Or still a self? You get just being experiencing, But there's more to being a living being than that. I can see the spiritual part of me that cannot feel the anger, But there's still the taking self responsibility. Someone is doing that. How is that not self? Um. . . I'm not denying, And the Buddha did not deny, That there's not something here. We're not saying there's nothing. We're saying there's no thing. No thing. When you see a wave coming out of the ocean, It's very clear the wave is arising out of the ocean, Wind energy moving it along. You wouldn't claim that there's one part of the wave, A solid center in the wave. You can see, Yes, The wave came along, Conditions arising, Changing, Going away. We see it with the tree. The tree comes together through all sorts of conditions, Right? The seed, The soil, The worms in the soil, The sunlight, The rain, The clouds, Right? All these conditions for the tree to grow and then to, You know, It comes into being and then eventually comes out of being, Right? All based on conditions. So we can see this in every aspect of nature. We can see this in every aspect of nature, That everything is arising based on trillions of different conditions, Based on the DNA of that seed or the DNA of how this one came together, But there is nothing independent or solid here. There is being, There is experience, And then the moment we say, But there's more to being a living being than that, How can there be more than being? What would be the more and even saying the spiritual part of me you've all it's already And this is a little bit of a trap where we go, Well, The spiritual part of me sees this, Right? It's like, Ah, There's a seeing. There's seeing happening. I wouldn't be dividing myself up into there's the spiritual part of me and there's the non-spiritual part of me. There's being. There's being. There's understanding and there's, Oh, And there's certain parts of not understanding yet. Okay. Those are the conditions. It's not quite coming all the way through yet, Right? And even in that, We can see how there can be a lot of frustration around, Oh, I'm not exactly getting it. I should be getting it better, Right? That's more selfing, Right? So also, Well, I'm going to suggest two things for you, Conscious, Two things. One is to really indirect experience, Question, To whom do these thoughts belong? To whom do these feelings belong? Go through the RAIN practice first, Right? Or if it's something just a little bit, Doesn't have a lot of intensity, You can just, To whom do those thoughts belong, Right? Question, Question if there is an owner, An identity behind the thinking. So I'm going to suggest you're questioning it more. And then the second thing that I would say to you that I would recommend is relax. Relax, Because the understanding we can't make it happen. We can't make it happen and the more that we try and we always go oh i i can make it happen i can read more i can i can do more right that's always the selfing is i can do more i'll read more right and so that's just more selfing activity so i would also say more direct experience you've been studying this for decades you're a therapist you have you have enough knowledge you have enough knowledge you have more than enough knowledge conscious trust me directly experiencing it and inquiring yourself. So inquiring in the moment. To whom do these thoughts belong? To whom do these feelings belong? It's not an intellectual exercise. It's not intellectual it's meant to pull the curtain back on the assumption that there is a feeler there for you to see in that moment there isn't and to see what opens up and then to also let go at the same time of the need to know of the i can get this i can understand this you know i can get there right because that also um yes it is it's michelle exactly it's more ego grasping right i need to know i need to know and it's kind of getting in the way, Right? You know how we often have that saying like, You got to get out of your own way. And this is definitely one of those things where we got to get out of our own way. Keep doing the things you're doing. You're showing up for lives. You're probably meditating. I hope you're meditating. Don't have to do any extraordinary amount of time, 20, 30 minutes, No problem. More is not better. More is not better. You know just doing some having a little space in your day so that you you can be with what's here and and having that inquiry into the thoughts the feelings right um to see for yourself if there's a feeler and even there every time you notice that kind of oh i want to know to whom do those thoughts belong who needs to know Who needs to know? And just to relax because We can't make awakening happen. We so think we can. I'll just do more. I'll meditate three hours a day. And I'll set a reminder, And I'll do self-compassion at this time. And then I'm going to read that book, And I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that course and this retreat. And we start adding on all these things. And we're doing it still, Like Michelle, Like you were even saying there, With that grasping mind, With that grasping mind. And this is why we see endless spiritual seekers in spirituality. Endless. I mean, So much. Yeah, So, You know. Just yeah let it happen it's happening it's happening that you're here means it's happening it is happening so just relax thanks conscious i'm glad i'm really glad Yeah, And Angela, Just what you're saying there about with your son. Um, Like what you're going through with your son is a good example of where. I would just keep the teachings where you're at right now with, As best you can, Noticing the worry, Noticing when it's here, Feeling it, Being with it in the body. Right. And allowing yourself to experience the worry, To feel the sense of, I don't have control over this, The worry about what's going to happen to him, The worry about what this is going to mean for you. Using self-compassion, Using, You were saying back earlier, Tong Len has been helping, Doing your practices. I wouldn't, For you, I wouldn't suggest that you ask that question. I think right now, This is just probably a little bit too much of an intense situation. Now, If you had been practicing for 30 years up until this, You know, I would probably say, Yeah, You could do it. But I don't, I think you're a little newer into your practice. And what I would suggest is that just staying the feelings and letting the tonglen really help you to be more centered, So that you're not lost in the worrying all the time, Because you've told me on previous lives where it's just all consuming, And that's not helping you, It's not helping your son, And so the more you can recognize it and allow yourself to feel it and keep inquiring, So keep inquiring to all those deeper emotions too, The fear that's behind the worry, The I don't have control over this, The uncertainty, So to keep bringing in each feeling allowing it to be here bringing giving it your attention I wouldn't ask in the end to whom do these thoughts belong I think for you it might be more appropriate just to stay with the feelings honoring the feelings that are here allowing the feelings to be here and um and continuing with the tonglen continuing with tonglen especially for your son when you're giving him uh when you're when you're looking at him and you're you know you're not starting with him but maybe he's the last person you go to and then you're really increasing your capacity to see another person that's in pain and discomfort and not shriek back from it. I mean, That's what the practice is really increasing our capacity to be with the pain and suffering of another person. And that helps us to also be with the pain and the suffering with ourselves, Right? So it's all interconnected, Right? The more that we can feel, You know, Feel our own feelings, The easier we are kind of look also at another person and feel their feelings, But without having them overwhelm us. And particularly Tonglen, Because it's really, It's just such a great practice at really helping us to learn how to be around another person's pain and discomfort and not shy away from it, Not take it on, Not take the burden to be fully with it, But not to take it with us. Yeah, Oh, Barbara, I'm glad you, Okay, You needed to hear that too. Everyone probably needs to hear that. I think everyone does. Yeah we can't force this relax in fact the best thing we can do is relax that doesn't mean then oh well i'm not going to meditate anymore i'm not going to practice mindfulness that's the ego's idea of it right just but relax it's happening it's happening it's happening All right, Alice, Good to see you. And I hope I got to everyone's questions. I think I did. Oh, And I think you were sharing, Alice, There are things, OK. I think I did get to everyone's questions, At least. So thank you all. Thank you all so much for the great questions. Thank you for, Yeah, For being here and for all being a part of this. And I think it is important for us to recognize where we are and what it is that we're going through. Abigail, I'm also going to say the same thing. Don't go to, I'm not going to recommend for you to go to that question, To whom do those thoughts belong? But be with the feelings, Right? It's important for us to also be okay with where we are and recognize, Like, Yeah, I'm probably not ready for that teaching. And that's okay. That's okay. Build the foundation first, Right, Of being able to be with what's here. Because sometimes we can also use the, Oh, To whom do these thoughts belong, As a way to bypass feeling our feelings. And in so reinforcing the sense that there is a feeler here that couldn't possibly feel the feelings. So we really want to make sure that we balance that out, Right, And that we know where we're we are. Yeah. OK. So. And yeah, Let's just take away from all this. It's happening. It's happening, Right? It's happening. Trust that. It's happening.

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Im missing the lives beacouse the time is late to me, thank you for the effort of bringing it up, im from Israel, and its just good to hear q&a , like connecting the contex to evryday live, but in relevent to crazy crzay that sometime the budhha just dont passes in times for me , thank you for the so so hard but pivot point of selfing in 2026... Beautiful new eyes on stagnent words for me, refreshing good :)