This is from the Angutra Mācāya,
Which is,
They're called the numerical discourses,
And they're organized.
It tells you something about the mind of the people who are organizing these.
These are organized by how many points there are in a sutta.
So if there's one point in the sutta,
It's under the chapter of ones.
If there's two,
It's under the chapter of twos,
Which sounds really insane.
It's like,
Why would you do that?
Except for people who are very familiar with these and they're thinking,
Well,
I need to find something on the Four Noble Truths,
And it kind of narrows it down,
And these are repeated in other places.
But whatever the case,
This is under the chapter of tens.
On one occasion,
The Blessed One was dwelling at Sāvasti in Jettus Grove,
Anathāndigas Park.
In the evening,
The Blessed One emerged from seclusion and went to the assembly hall,
Where he sat down on the prepared seats.
The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus.
Talk about kings,
Thieves,
Ministers of state.
It covers most of the front page of the newspaper.
Talk about armies,
Perils,
And wars,
And covers the world section.
Talk about food,
Drink,
Garments,
And beds.
What about the advertisements?
Yeah,
The advertisements.
The home pages too.
Pardon?
The pages about the home as well.
The home pages.
Garments and beds.
Talk about garlands and scents.
It's got a new page.
Cosmetic industry.
Cosmetic industry.
Talk about relatives,
Vehicles,
Villages,
Towns,
Cities,
And counties.
Just about.
Talk about women.
Remember,
This was for monks.
Talk about women,
And talk about heroes.
Street talk,
And talk by the well.
Talk about the departed.
There go the obituaries.
Miscellaneous talk.
That's the best one.
Everything else.
What are they speaking?
Speculation about the world and the sea.
There goes Ann Landers.
Oh,
And the religion section.
Talk about world and the sea.
Talk about becoming this and that.
So there's all your self-help stuff.
So those are things you can't talk about if you want to have mindful speech.
What about the monk?
Mindful speech.
So those are the exclusions.
Whether you're a monk or not,
If that's what you really want.
Those are the exclusions.
Is there a list of exclusions?
So you really come from such a person who wants to talk about it?
Well,
Let me read you a second passage,
And then we can talk about all of it,
Because this gives the positive list.
This is from the Uddanda,
Which is one of those early suttas,
And this is 4.
1,
The Magaya Sutta.
And Magaya was a monk who.
.
.
It's kind of fun.
He goes to the Buddha,
But he'd gone out on his alms rounds,
And on the way back to the park where the monks were staying,
He saw this really lovely mango grove,
And he thought,
This would be a really lovely place to meditate.
I'll go ask the Buddha if it's okay if I go meditate there.
And when he asked the Buddha,
The Buddha responds,
Where alone,
Magaya?
Wait until some other monks come.
So he asked the second time,
And if he could go and meditate in this grove,
And the Buddha says,
We are alone,
Magaya,
Wait until some other monks come.
And then he asked a third time,
And the Buddha says,
Magaya says to the Buddha,
Reverend Sir,
The Lord has said nothing further than she'd be done.
I would like to go to mango grove and endeavor and meditate.
As you were talking of endeavoring Magaya,
What can I say?
And Magaya,
Go do what you think it is time to do.
So he asked this three times,
No,
No,
And a third time he says,
Go do what you want to do.
And so he goes off to this mango grove to meditate,
And his mind is just filled with distractions.
His mind is all over the place.
And so he comes back and says,
You know,
What can I do?
And he says,
When mind deliverance is—this is the Buddha—when mind deliverance is as yet immature as Magaya,
Five things lead to its maturity.
What five?
And the five are good friends,
Virtue,
Which is following the precepts.
For the monks it's the Padivoka,
Which is this whole big book of things they're supposed to follow.
Wise speech,
And energetic in preserving regard to wholesome states,
Penetrative understanding of rise and disappearance.
So there's the dependent origination.
So let me come back to the wise speech,
And I'll reach into more details.
Furthermore,
Magaya,
A monk obtains that will,
With no trouble or difficulty,
Talk that is effacing,
Helping and opening up the mind,
And which conduces to complete turning away,
Dispassion,
Cessation,
Peace,
Direct knowledge,
Enlightenment,
And nirvana.
So,
I was basically saying,
If you have any of these aspirations,
That's what your project is.
This is what your speech should be.
That is,
Talk about fewness of wishes.
So even think about,
We've been talking about mindful speech,
And those of you who have been talking see if the things you're talking about fit into this list.
Fewness of wishes,
Talk about contentment.
Talk about seclusion.
Talk about being non-regarious.
Talk about putting forth energy.
Talk about virtue.
Talk about collectiveness.
Talk about wisdom.
Talk about deliverance.
Talk about knowledge and vision of deliverance.
It's a pretty narrow list.
Basically,
He's saying,
Talk about the Dhamma.
And my understanding of this is that he's not saying that talk about these other things is necessarily bad,
But they are not conducive to going deeper.
You know,
As Victoria was saying,
Coming back from a retreat and listening to the news,
Like,
Threw her all over the place.
So,
That's pretty fierce.
That's pretty fierce.
And what I think is most important in this is not taking this as rules or things we have to do,
But just understanding the effects that various kinds of speech have upon us.
Be mindful of that.
Comments?
Cameron.
Yeah,
I've had a really interesting experience with that over the past couple days.
I really enjoyed the conversation that I've had with people and the writing that I've been doing.
I've had some really fun ideas about how to communicate this stuff to people who have different frames of reference.
And those things have been very work rewarding in their own way.
But I've also noticed that they bring a lot of energy and erraticness to my attention and totally disturbs the peace that I developed by day four.
And so,
I actually just wrote down a question for you,
Which is something along the lines of how important is it to really maintain that peace and quietness and stability?
Because it seems quite difficult to do even when I'm attempting to be mindful in the writing and in the conversing.
It still generates a lot of energy.
Even as asking this question now,
I feel all Twitter-bated.
Anyone want to take a shot at answering that?
So in the Sādhi Patanāsūta,
Buddha says,
When the monk is restless,
He knows he's restless.
When the monk does not have restless,
He knows he doesn't have restless.
So the peace,
I think from the Buddha's perspective,
It's not so much the peaceful states that he's looking at,
But the peaceful states are conducive to awareness.
And it is the awareness that eventually liberates.
So to say it real succinctly is that whatever arises is actually just fine.
Whatever arises is not a problem as long as you can see it clearly and impersonally.
And that's the tricky part.
And so if you're involved in mindful speech or you're attempting to or you find any of these other practices and you've thrown off,
What's more important than pulling yourself back to where you think you ought to be is actually just really being deeply aware of where you are at the moment.
Because all these states,
Including peacefulness and all the rest,
Are conditioned phenomena.
They arise when the conditions are right and they pass.
And so what's important is not so much holding onto those,
But having the clarity to see them rise and pass.
And when you do that,
You can begin to see how mechanical this whole process is.
Like you were saying,
You do all this stuff and a mind gets restless.
And if you really open up and see that without judging,
Is that your problem?
Because that's what we think is my problem.
As I was saying back I think on the second night talking about hindrances,
When we don't see clearly how this process works,
We tend to identify with it.
But if you can see it clearly,
What's going on,
Then it ceases to be a problem.
It's just part of the texture of what's going on around.
So it can be really helpful to just really know when you're present,
You know,
When you're mindful,
When you're not.
Also in the Satipatthara Sūta there's this wonderful phrase that's fun to think about.
It's with this whole string that are in the same formulae.
It says,
When the monk is deluded,
He knows he's deluded.
When he's not deluded,
He knows he's not deluded.
So how do you know when you're deluded?
You feel separate maybe?
Could be.
Yeah,
That's it.
Tension.
Tension.
Tension.
Yeah.
What does that mean?
I don't actually have an answer,
But is this really useful?
Are there thoughts though?
Other thoughts would be if one gets in,
I mean everybody has the experience that you've related there.
And if you get into that,
Then my question in that situation is,
Is it possible,
Is it constructive,
Is it helpful to just sit down and take the particularly stimuli that's revving one up and simply 6R them at the time and just attempt to allow them not only that you have right view of them,
But also allow them to settle down so that you're less subject to that?
I think 6R-ing is always helpful.
And if you're on the run or the middle of something really thick where you can't do that,
A really shorter version of that is just being aware of the attitudes in the mind.
Just being aware of the,
Not so much the thought,
But the feeling tone and the texture in the thought.
Because we have no control,
Actually have no control over what arises right at the moment.
But the clear and more open our awareness is that has,
Or well I would just say in general,
The quality of the mind has a deep influence on what comes up later on in the brain.
The mind has a lot to do with my tummy.
Pardon?
I mean it's tight,
I know.
Yeah,
Yeah.
And?
Body.
And your attitude towards your body and your tight tummy.
That's subtler,
But has more effect in the long run.
Are these about ways of telling if you're deluded?
Right speech.
Okay,
I just want to see if I have any more on deluded and we'll pick up these other ones.
Because there's one that I just love.
Anytime you're complaining,
That's a sure sign of delusion.
So that's a fun one,
Just a monitor.
Okay,
So yeah,
Go ahead.
I noticed right speech is very much connected with wholesome friends.
Wholesome friends.
Wholesome friends.
Wholesome friends.
Particularly friends who have a similar practice,
An awareness and wisdom practice.
Because there is some kind of a natural movement towards speaking about essential issues that are pertinent to happiness and life supportive and happiness supportive.
Rather than to talk about real estate,
Football,
Kings,
The East,
And the whole thing.
And the fact is that those conversations just bore me now.
It is something that I really have to walk away from.
And it becomes in this culture,
Such an indulgence,
That it becomes a gross waste of my time.
And that I could be doing something else.
It might be my advanced years,
Perhaps,
That are showing.
But I take refuge in these truths that resonate deeply with me.
And I now look forward to conversations with friends that resonate in the same way.
And the speech becomes more right speech.
And it also has a cadence of mindfulness to it.
So that when you stop talking,
Somebody just doesn't jump in.
They know that you're having a thoughtful reflection.
And to begin again,
Rather than to have a competition of who's going to be talking and who has to listen.
So there is a there's a relationship between right speech and friends.
And Sangha.
Yeah,
Sangha.
What I was going to ask or speak about goes along with what Jordan has said.
That I've noticed that when I have continuity of practice and I'm with friends who aren't so steeped in the Dharma,
I become quite boring.
And I feel a pull to kind of go away from those pillars of right speech,
So I'm not so boring.
Like friends even start to say,
They start to talk and then they'll say,
Oh I realize I'm gossiping.
And I don't even think I told friends.
I've never been much of a gossiper,
But when I've really taken that seriously,
That to gossip friends will kind of shy away from me and say,
Oh I realize I'm gossiping.
I'm going to stop.
So there's some kind of distance that begins to get created with those friends.
So it's very much of a lesson as to what Jordan is saying.
Yeah,
I think as we change,
How we connect with people shifts.
And sometimes long time friends fall away.
I just remember Ronda saying once,
You know,
If your connection with your friend was that you played,
That you went bowling every Thursday and you're no longer interested in bowling,
You know,
Then the relationship may fall apart if it's built around gossip and things like that.
So I think it's helpful to feel those urges and those pulls.
And sometimes I think what it comes down to is just allowing yourself to agree for a little bit,
You know,
The loss of that.
And you can make a decision,
Like okay maybe I'll gossip to get back connected with these people,
Or play with it and see what happens,
You know,
It goes on inside.
But it's inevitable that as we change that our relationships with people around us are going to change.
Anitja.
Anitja.
I think it would be really interesting to have,
Instead of just saying talk mindfully,
To actually say talk about the Dhamma.
You can talk all you want about the Dhamma.
I think it would bring a different perspective,
A different richness to everybody in the conversation.
Yeah.
When I was first training with Bantu,
That's what he would do.
Say you can talk all you want as long as about the Dhamma.
And then people would talk about Senyogananda movie and what kind of snacks they had and how they liked it.
It's very destructive,
But yeah that's true.
That is a really good way to simplify it.
One spot I find that I get stuck on a slippery slope over,
I note that that if I'm taking refuge in right speech,
As Jordan spoke about,
I can sometimes see myself slip over into taking refuge in righteous speech.
Or even righteousness.
I'm not talking about that because I'm beyond that.
I know what's really good for all of us.
I'm going to model that for me.
Of course I would never be that blatant about it.
I'm more skillful at my point.
The spots that I can feel that slip out under.
And that image for me of the larger pasture or the cow really helps me.
I noticed yesterday when I started speaking some and I,
Like Cameron spoke about,
I came in with a lot more energy of a variety of kinds.
I just blew that pasture up.
It felt as if it made space for that energy.
I feel that the epimimity is larger and that ultimately of course feeds the practice.
And when you notice this unskillful space coming up,
It's interesting to watch to see if there's a version or attraction or the desire to just ignore it.
Those are the three expressions of nah.
And as you're saying,
If you can put those in a large pasture rather than being really quick to try to change the internal state,
To just give it a lot of room and then it can run out of energy on its own.
Unless you get pulled in.
And so the skillful approach to all that I think is really just to test it out on yourself.
To see how much you can let that be there without getting sucked in.
Because the more you can let it be there without getting sucked into it,
The freer you are.
But if you do get sucked in,
Then you're lost.
So it's just playing with that in the various times where we are and not turning all this into the Ten Commandments.
Because then you lose the lightness.
That's how you come across as being boring when you lose our lightness.
And I think that there is a richness to rightful speech but there must be some lightness to it as well.
Yes,
Yes,
Yes.
And when it's light,
It actually gets quite spacious.
And when it's light,
The mind gets quite clear.
When the mind is really.
.
.
That's where the smiling and that whole aspect of it becomes really important.
Yes,
I would want to make the case for fun in the sense that I've had experiences of being with friends who have very deep spiritual commitments.
But when we're together,
It can be known that we're doing things that are non-toxic,
That are non-dangerous or bad for other people,
Which are fun and light and which are amusing.
But the actual interpersonal interactions are very loving and very free and very non-confining.
So that there is a lightness.
And we all know that we're just doing something that's not necessarily part of our path in a really direct way.
And so there's a proportionality where it doesn't take over.
There are times of seriousness and discussion about spiritual matters,
Blah,
Blah,
Blah.
So that the lightness can be there.
And I really want to second your proposal about lightness being a value that is very freeing for relationships and tends,
I think,
Towards taking them to wholesome places.
I remember a trip to a Christian center where they do healing in the central valley in Reading.
And it was fascinating to actually discuss and process and think about this together as a group,
Because it presented us with interesting questions of how,
As Buddhists,
Do we face a deeply Christian environment and what are our thoughts and feelings and reactions to that.
So that's an example where it was both fun and instructive and reflective as well.
Fun is very,
Very important.
You mentioned the people in Asia have a much greater sense of fun than being in the West.
There's a chapter on the stomach,
A Thai attitude that if it's not fun,
The guy,
That one should be doing it.
As opposed to here where,
You know,
It's no pain,
No gain.
Any other thoughts before I move on?
I'm not sure that content is the way in which we measure the interaction.
I go to the club in the morning,
Talk to people,
You know,
There's the sports,
There's the news,
But it's the place that I'm coming from inside myself,
Connecting.
That the speech is just,
The content is a rider of that connection.
Of course if I get stuck in the content,
Lose my awareness,
That might be another issue.
But I don't know that content in and of itself is the way in which I need to be aware of it.
So why don't we move over to the precepts.
I'm just going to do a seminar,
But we can come back to that because we're kind of in the thick of that.
So what we're talking about there is the fourth precept and the business about idle chatter.
And what really is idle chatter?
I mean,
One of those is really pointless.
Because there are times,
You know,
Like at the gym or in family gatherings or something where you're talking about a a lighter non-substantive topic that actually has the function of building up and strengthening wholesome relationships.
So I agree with you completely,
When you take these two literally and try to just cram them into a box that doesn't work,
It's really important to see the spirit behind it.
Any other thoughts about,
I'm going to take the precept refrain from lies,
Gossip,
Harsh speech or idle chatter.
Anybody want to reflect a little bit on where that touches them?
There's sort of a quality of,
I mean,
Content isn't the entire,
The totality of speech.
Because speech really means interaction.
So,
I mean,
To your point,
David,
You know,
Certainly the context is,
You know,
Part of the interaction.
But there's something that sort of reminds me in some sense as I get in a conversation with somebody.
And it would be equal to going to McDonald's and ordering a hamburger,
A Coke and a fries.
It's just junk food.
And it's kind of a junk conversation.
And I like to turn that into a conversation that either has levity or something that is somehow mutually beneficial.
And I think that that's really the key,
Mutually beneficial.
Whether it be in building bridges,
You know,
In terms of relationships or the content,
Enriching the content by,
You know,
Asking a question that evokes a thoughtful response that is not toxic.
I have a thought on that.
In daily life,
When I'm running my business and I'm meeting customers,
Often the connection is try to make a great rapport between the person and the customer.
So,
It's like ping pong.
So,
That sort of leads to idle chatter,
I would say.
I mean,
It's always,
I always try to make it a meaningful conversation.
And just to push that a little bit of looking at what your intentions are in that conversation.
Are they connecting?
Are they getting into the person's wallet?
Which is a really,
Just,
You know,
In all kinds of communication about what are your intentions in talking.
Do I want to be noticed?
Do I want to be,
You know,
What's going on?
I want to move along so we can touch on these others.
And if there's somebody who hasn't spoken this morning,
Would be willing to take another one of the precepts and maybe read them aloud and then say one or two things about it.
