Janina Fisher & Deb Dana: Polyvagal Theory & Nervous System

In this warm, candid, and deeply human conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with her longtime colleague and friend Deb Dana, the clinician who has brought polyvagal theory to therapists around the world. Together, they explore how understanding the nervous system transforms clinical practice, therapeutic presence, and even how we move through our own lives.

Spanning more than two decades of shared history—from Sensory Motor Psychotherapy trainings in Portsmouth to the early days of Deb’s work with Stephen Porges—this dialogue weaves personal stories with practical wisdom. Janina and Deb speak the same language: relational safety, parts, states, regulation, and the powerful ripple effect of ventral vagal connection.

Transcript

Welcome everybody, And I am very pleased to have Deb Dana as my guest today, Who I am sure you're familiar with her name, Very well known in the trauma and polyvagal world as really the spokesperson for how to go from polyvagal theory to total polyvagal clinical work. And of course, This podcast is my excuse to see old friends. I think we met in 2003. Mm-hmm. That's a long time, Isn't it? Yeah. Wow. That is a long time. You came to Portsmouth, To New Hampshire, And you were my sensory motor trainer. Right, Right. And I remember that training because it was the first sensory motor psychotherapy training that I was the lead trainer for. So it was really, And it was a wonderful group of people. Mm-hmm. As you remember. It was, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was still, I was just graduating with my master's and so I was diving into figuring out some of these modalities. And you were the first, That was the first that I really dove into. I said, What is this? So yeah, Yeah. Amazing. And it fits so well with polyvagal theory. So it must have been a really how did you get from being a newly minted therapist and sensory motor trained to polyvagal world? You know, It's interesting because I've always been a neuroscience nerd. I loved knowing how the brain worked and then sensory motor brought it into the body. And then I did some IFS training. So we got all that going on. And then I read Steve's first book. And have you had those moments when something comes in and you go, Oh, That's what I've been missing, Right? That's what happened for me. I read his work. I read polyvagal theory where it brought the nervous system in a different way. And I thought, That's what I need to be adding into my work with clients. So that was beginning. And back in those days, If you remember those days, We used to call people up on a phone. I know. I was thinking, How did we communicate? Right. And people answered the phone. It was like, People didn't have people. So I called Steve and he answered the phone. And I said, I just read your book and I love it. And I wondered, Would you come to Maine and do a training for my colleagues? And he said, Sure, I'd love to. It was easy as that. Can you imagine? Wow. I know. I know. How all of our lives have changed. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, You would get him on his cell phone. But, You know, People would normally have to probably a year or more ahead. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very changed world now, Isn't it? But, Yeah. So, You know, We were lucky and he came to Maine and did a two day, Three day, I think, Training for my group. And then he stayed for a while because Maine's a lovely place, Right? It's a beautiful place to be. Sue came with him and they stayed for a bit. And so we got to just sort of hang out. And that was when I felt that sort of that easy connection. You know, We would say a neuroception of safety and welcome that we could create something together. And he was always so generous and kind and supportive because, As he said, He's a scientist and an academic and I was the clinician. And so we could bring things together. And it all kind of went from there. And when you look back on your world, Do you have those moments where you think, Wow, I never would have expected to be where I am? Oh, Absolutely. I didn't get there on purpose. Right. That's the best thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I don't know how I got here. I mean, I love being here and it's and it's wonderful and I love being able to share my passion. But would I have predicted it? Would I have thought when I was first meeting you and doing sensory motor that I'd be here? No. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And when I was a sensory motor trainer, I never thought. Yeah. It never occurred to me. I mean, I had one mission, Which was to improve the quality and understanding of trauma treatment. Yeah. But. Yeah. Well, You have done that beautifully. You really have. Yeah. We both have. Which is great. It is great. It is great. It's nice to see the work out in the world, Isn't it? It is. It is. Yeah. And it's good to see people passionate about these models. And people are passionate about polyvagal theory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, They are. They are. It's interesting. And part of it is, I think, Because it does weave so well into other models. It can sit underneath. You know, If you understand the nervous system, Sensory motor works better because I know what's happening. IFS works better. They all sort of it's easier to sort of navigate. So yeah. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And and and talking therapy is better with polyvagal theory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because, Janina, Sometimes I wonder, You know, I'm really not talking to my client's brain, Am I? I'm talking to their nervous system. You would say you're talking to their body, Right? I mean, We're talking we're not talking here, Even though that's sort of. Yeah, We're using words. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, It's I love having the language for me, The language of the nervous system, The language of polyvagal has been really helpful for me. And I was doing a piece of work the other day. Somebody asked me to review something and it was bringing all sorts of things together and then polyvagal. And I thought, I have become a polyvagal purist, Which I never thought I would do. I've always been an integrator, Right? Bring in a little of it. But I thought at this moment in my life, I think I'm a polyvagal purist because I just want people to I want them to know that first and then bring everything else in. So I bumped up against it. I thought, Oh, That's different. So here we are. Right. And then also after this many years, You like I have a confidence about what will work. Yeah. And, You know, Kind of like a stubborn insistence that that's what we should do, Because I like that. I'm going to remember that a stubborn insistence is beautiful. And I'm sure sometimes it's very annoying for my clients, But and and actually, You know, Now I really I I sense I'm still attached to the nervous system. But I'm actually listening for parts, Not the body. I'm much less of a somatic person and more a parts person. Yeah. Because I I've developed my own parts model. It's more nervous system and trauma informed. Nice. Nice. It's interesting how we change over time. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to know about you. You're much more. I love that you describe yourself as much more of a parts person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always think because I've so many people work with parts in so many different ways that when I'm working with people or training people, They ask. And for me and I'm you know, How I think about it for myself is parts live in states. So they live in my nervous system in different states. And then as I enter into a sympathetic survival state, All the parts that are hanging out there have the opportunity to come out and take over the same with, You know, Dorsal collapse and the same with ventral. Lots of parts live in ventral. Right. There are lots of regulated parts that have the opportunity to help run my system. Yeah. I would say in for my clients, I would say they have very few regulated parts. But, You know, But the, You know, The idea is that that when they use their medial prefrontal cortex, Then they're in a ventral vagal relationship to their parts. Right. Yeah. It's the head. Yeah. Yeah. It's regulated as their parts are. Yeah. Yeah. It's that lovely loop, Isn't it? That body, Brain, Brain, Body, All that are always in that communication. So, Yeah. Yeah. And when they get on the same page, When ventral and cortex are communicating, Working, Then amazing what we have access to. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, You know, I, I call the social engagement system, The therapist's secret weapon. Because, Because just being conscious of, You know, Because it's so easy when, When people are, Especially if they're in dorsal vagal states, It's really easy to kind of go there with them. It's a very contagious state. Yep. It is. And, You know, I often will tell new therapists who are trying to figure out how to, You know, What, What models to do, What to do. And I said, Well, While you're doing that, I will tell you that being regulated with a client for a session is a powerful intervention in and of itself. Right. So, You know, Our, We're sending that to their system, Our social engagement system is, You know, Reaching out and that is really powerful, Right? That is so, I think that's so powerful. You do nothing else. Powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. A lot of pressure off the therapist. You actually need to do less. Right. And just be regulated more. Yeah. In that socially engaged way. Do you find though that, That many clinicians are, Are more interested in learning the protocol than learning their learning how to stay regulated or balanced. I keep running into that. They want to know how to do this, But not how to do this. Right. Right. I think it's hard because, You know, It comes from this place of wanting to help and not realizing that doing things is actually less helpful than being things. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, And, You know, There's such an emphasis these days on, Are you going to give your audience something practical to do on Monday? And, And yes, I'm happy to do that. Yeah. But, But it's really the delivery. Right. It's not the skill. It's not the intervention. Right. Cause you could deliver a practice from a dysregulated state and it will just dysregulate your client. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. We do put a lot of, We put a high premium on, On what can they take into the office the next day or, Or Monday. Yeah. Yeah. So, So when I think of, Of nervous system experience in polyvagal theory, For me, It's, It's become a way, Not just a way of working, But it's a way of living. Right. It's how I navigate my life. And for me, That's been helpful. Oh, I think it's absolutely. I feel, I feel like I use everything I teach because my quality of life is much better. Yes. Yes. I do still, However, Bump into the days when I think, Oh, I teach better than I practice. So, You know, Still have those moments. Yeah. And I actually think those are valuable moments because, You know, Because we, Then we get it. Like I, You know, So often I have the same kind of, You know, Urgency to do something and, And it never works. You're right. No, No. Yeah. I know. We look back on that moment and think, Oh, I should have, I should have listened to the wisdom of my nervous system or my wisdom in some way, Because I would have made a different choice. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I, I was watching some video clips from, Uh, From a client who, Who I think I became a worse and worse therapist, Of course, Of her therapy. Oh, Because, Because, Because she was a almost classic dorsal vagal client and, Uh, With a, A streak of sympathetic suicidality thrown in. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I remember at the beginning, I was so, I was so regulated and so relaxed with her. Didn't feel like I needed to make something happen. I just needed to help her notice what was happening because regulating in and of itself. And, And then I looked at, At clips from later sessions and I was choosing my leg. I was a bitch. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was getting frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. Your sympathetic was coming into action. Wasn't it? I could barely contain myself and I thought, I don't know. I don't know if she noticed so much, But I thought, Oh, Actually what I, Right. She was really stuck when I was regulated and I think, And because she was stuck, I stopped regulating and tried to kind of beat her into. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Change. Yeah. And it just was totally didn't work. Yeah. No, Usually doesn't. Does it? Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think sitting with someone though, In dorsal is, Is the hardest, Right? Because we are, We, We are pulled to want to get them out of dorsal when really most of the time the nervous system is telling us I need to be here for a bit. There's something that needs to, To happen here. So, You know, I'm, It's easier for me perhaps than you might my home away from home is dorsal. I'm very familiar with that. That's my survival strategy of choice. So I can, I can sit with people in dorsal knowing that they will, They will come out, You know, And, And, You know, But, But yeah, It's, It's still challenging and we can feel our own system wanting to get out of there. Come on, Let's do something. Yeah. Right. And I said, And my sense of jump was got to do something was I was getting older, Like, You know, We just don't have that much time. Oh, That was the, Was the push. That's interesting. We got to get this done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Interesting, Wise information from your system. It just then came out in a way that wasn't helpful for the client, But, But the bottom line information was important for you to, For you to have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it was really, I mean, Thank goodness for, For zoom recordings because I could watch myself over time. Yeah. Yeah. Humbling, Isn't it? Very humbling. Yeah. I think about that. I think, Wow, I've been doing this quite a while now and I still can get messy with the best of them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, It's interesting. I love that your system gives you that information. Cause I think if we listen, We get the information that our system needs us, Needs us to know it's just turning toward and listening can be challenging. Right. Right. And wrestling with that wish to help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Because if, If the wish to help is anchored in, In our ventral system, It's awesome. But as soon as it moves into some sympathetic drivenness, It's not so helpful. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And then in dorsal, We lose the wish to help because why bother? Nothing's going to change. It's hopeless. Right. So yeah. Absolutely. Right. And as I said, That it's such a contagious state. Yeah. Yeah. Pulls quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause I often, When I teach now, I teach that, That I do teach that, That, That sympathetic can pull so quickly and so intensely that you want to, You know, Just be on the watch for that. And also I think ventral is contagious at the best way. Right. You know, It's through, Through direct contact, But just through indirect expression, I think. And I started saying to people, Ventral is an unopposable force. You do, It will ripple out there into the world. So I'm holding onto that. I'm not letting go of that. Right. Right. Right. And plus it feels good. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a win-win for everybody. Win-win. Yes. And it feels good to be around others who are regulated. Right. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is a win-win. I like that. We need some of those in the world nowadays. Oh, We need a lot of regulating. We sure do. Yeah. Yes. It is interesting to look at the world through the lens of the nervous system though, Because you do see lots of people who are sympathetically activated and another great group of people who have gone to dorsal despair. Right. So we've got both of that and not enough people who are holding down the ventral regulation. So, You know, We know what we need to do. It's just, How do we get there and how do we, How do we stay there is hard. It is hard. It is hard. And, And I think there's so, There's so much happening every day that, You know, That, Yeah, That feels threatening. It's all fair. It's very hard to stay regulated. It is. There's so much coming at us all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It is hard. You have to sort of figure out what, What are your ways of finding, You know, What I call the glimmers, Those tiny moments of, Of okayness. How do you find those and, And, And use them because we could be overwhelmed by what comes at us. Yeah. I mean, I like to read the news. I will, I will admit that I makes me feel safer to have that framework. So every morning I read my local main paper to see what's going on there. And then I read the New York times to, To get that. And, And I pick and choose though, I read the headlines, Then I pick and choose what I'm actually going to read because some of them are like, Nope, No, Not to, And other ones are, Ooh, Yes. So, But, But it's, It's an interesting framework of safety for me to, To stay in touch in that way. Other people absolutely know, Aren't going to read anything because it's a cue of danger to them. So we're all different. Yeah. I mean, I have the same thirst for information and then I just regulate myself because, Because, You know, It's, It's, It's not good news. No, No. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You find those tiny particles that somebody writes about some good thing that happened in the world. Right. They're, They're, They sprinkle them in every now and then I go, Oh, That's, That's heartwarming and I can feel it. Right. You go, Oh, Okay. There still are. And when I'm out in the world, I will say I've been traveling a bit to, To work and I bump into very kind people and that's a, Reminds me that, Oh yeah, There, There are really kind people in the world. So it's, That's been nice. Right. Right. That's the lovely thing about, About traveling and, And are you traveling all over? I am. I'm, I'm, I, I was in Italy just a few weeks ago and that was really lovely and travels difficult as you know. And, And yet there were people who just, You know, Were very kind and offered to, Can I help you with this? Or where do you need to go? Or let me, It was just really sweet. And it's sort of like, Oh, And sometimes I think it's because I have white hair and they think I'm their grandma, Right? That's okay. I'm okay with that, But they just were very sweet. So 2026, I'm going to be on the road. I'm doing in-person retreat style work because for me, That I think is how I want to take my teaching out into the world. I, I like seeing people for a few days in a row. I like being with them in person. So I'm going to give that a try and see what happens. All right. And a retreat style is, I think, You know, Much more kind of relaxing and it's, It's much more connected. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm longing for that. I long to be with people and, And, You know, Kind of really deepen into something rather than, I know you do, And I still do, You know, The, The one hour, The 90 minute online things that, That I can do. They just, It's like, Oh, I'm not sure that's what I want to be doing. Whereas I'm at the point where I'm like, If I can do it from home, I am a happy woman. Good for you. See, You're, You're, You know what you need and I'm beginning to pay attention to, To what I need. So I think that's, That's good for both of us. Yeah. So is most of your teaching now online from home? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, You know, We get a beautiful connection that way too. Right. Yeah, We do. We build community that way too. So, Yeah. And I find, I mean, You know, I think I'm probably what, 20 years older than you I'm 72. What are you? You're not that much older. Yeah. I'm 81, But I found since I, Since I got it past 75, I found I was, Travel was much more uncomfortable. Yeah. You know, I had a knee problem. It was hard to walk. Yeah. So it just became more and more, I mean, I, I can keep doing what I love to do. Yeah. My aging body. Yeah. Well, I've, I've discovered that because I used to just go somewhere, Teach and come home. Right. And I thought, Well, That's probably not what I want to do. So now I build in some days to see the place and I invite one of my kids to go with me or a friend to go with. So it's, So I'm not on my own all the time and I'm, I'm enjoying that. So, Yeah. Yeah. Cause traveling by yourself is hard. I, I, My, Yeah, Not, Not easy. Yeah. Right. Much better to go somewhere where, You know, People. Yeah. I mean, That speaks to our nervous system, Right? The longing for connection and the, The biological need for connection. You know, I don't need a lot of people. I don't like a lot of people, But I need a certain amount of people to feel, To feel okay in the world. Right. Yeah. How about you? A lot of people, Few people. What, What's your system? I'm definitely fewer closer people. Yeah. Yeah. I have, I have very dear friends in the UK. I have a very, Very dear Italian colleague and friend. And so, So it's really, It's really wonderful to go and, You know, Not only have their help, But also have their company. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice when we have those people in the world that we just feel that deep connection to. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going somewhere. I can't even remember where I'm going in 2026. And I think I'm going to invite my older son to come with me. Oh yeah. Because he'll be good company. He'll be a lot of help. He's a therapist. He's a trauma therapist. Oh, Nice. So he will get to meet, You know, Wonderful colleagues. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Is he sensory motor trained? He is. By me. Perfect. That's good. And he's probably trained in your way of working as well. He is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, How delightful that must be. It is. It's so fun to talk shop. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have most of my family now talking polyvagal nervous system. So that's good. That is good. Yeah. Yeah. Even though they're not therapists. Not therapists, But we speak the language. So that's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're going to get out in the world somewhere and have family with you and enjoy it. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I actually, I actually love living. I mean, I didn't live alone at all from the age of 23 to what, To probably 72. And, And I actually find it really nice because I don't, I don't have to negotiate with anybody. Yeah. We don't have to decide who's going to shower first. Right. There are some of those things that I appreciate. I, This is, This is year two for me. Bob died two years ago, So I'm still getting used to what it's like to live alone. But there, I agree with you. There are some nice things. I can eat what I want when I want. Right. I can leave my stuff around if I want. Nobody's going to say anything. So there, There is that, That I love. I just haven't figured out the, The social aspect yet. I'm still trying to figure out how do I also connect with people? So I, I can feel, You know, It's lonely sometimes, But you know what I've been feeling recently that is that interesting feeling of melancholy, You know, Which is that sort of subtle sorrow or longing or something. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I try to figure out why I'm not, Why I don't feel lonelier. My son lives eight minutes from my house. So he can, You know, He can pop over at any time. Yeah. But, But I think actually I also get, I feel like I'm never alone because I'm on zoom all day. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah. You feeling very, Very busy in your work still? They're too busy. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. Well, Not too busy, But glad that you're still out there bringing your wisdom to, To the world. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And you, You know, A little bit about too busy. I do. I do. And I'm trying to take a step back and be a little more mindful of what I say yes to. So, Yeah. It's such a hard balance and, You know, And we're planning into the future. So, You know, I'm thinking, Oh, This will be fine. And then I look at, You know, Some week in April of next year and I'm teaching every morning. Right. Right. Yeah. How did that happen? Exactly. Exactly. I know because we're, We, We schedule our lives like a year in advance. I have no idea what I'm going to feel like next November. I have absolutely no idea. So, Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It is an interesting way to, To try and live to try to think that far ahead and think, Oh yeah, I can do this and that because today I'm feeling pretty energized. And if you ask me, I'd probably say yes to five things. And next week I might feel like, You know, Really drained and I'd say no to everything. I don't know. I know. I know. I know it's, You know, It's easier to stay regulated than it is to plan your life in a balanced way. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like thinking if I can just have enough central active and alive in my system, The solutions will emerge. I don't know what they are, But they, They are in there and they will emerge. Right. Which is the same thing we do with our clients. I don't know what the answer is for my client, But the answer lives inside them. And if I can help them come to a state of regulation, They will find that answer. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's hard because, You know, We're wrestling with their need to have an answer and our need for them to have an answer. Right. Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when you have clients who are so sympathetically driven, Right? Have to have an answer, Need it now. How long is this going to take all of that driven energy? And, And, And we can feel ourselves, Or at least I can feel myself really trying to hold on to the spaciousness of regulation and be able to let them know, You know, The answers will come, But it's hard when I say, I don't know when, I don't know how long. Right. I don't know. Right. It's not what their system wants to hear. Right. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But when they touch into ventral, When they have that moment of feeling regulated, They can feel it too. Right. They can feel, Oh, There's no, There's no exact timeline here and that's okay. We'll get there. Right. That's, That's what I keep, I truly believe that the nervous system will find the way to regulation. And that's what I tell my clients, Your system knows the way and it will find the way and we will help it find the way. And once it finds a way, Then all sorts of possibilities will emerge. Right. And it's so hard. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of my longest term client, Um, Who I call Annie, Who, Who keeps finding regulation and then losing it. Yep. It's, It's, It's amazing. It just, It stuns me sometimes. Have, Have we been talking, You know, Have we been regulating, You know, What have we been doing? Yeah. Well, Yeah. I mean, That's the interesting thing about the nervous system though. Right. That finds regulation, Loses, Finds, Loses it and does that all the time. And, You know, We have this thought that after all this time, It should be able to hang on to regulation a little bit longer. Well, Actually I'm not even expecting that. I'm just, I'm just wanting her to remember that regulation helps. Yeah. Yeah. That it does help. Yeah. Yeah. It seems simpler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, You know, But it's hard. It's hard for, For, You know, In her case, People with dissociative disorders. Yeah. Yeah. Parts, Parts know about regulation and some parts don't. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Across or they, Or they're afraid of it because sympathetic states feel safer. Absolutely. Absolutely. My clients and, And I don't work with, With DID, But my clients who were just, You know, Just, You know, Complex trauma survivors, You know, When they touch into ventral for the first time, It's terrifying. Right. I don't know that state. I, What do I do here? It feels too, Too weird, Too scary. And said, Of course. Too relaxed. It feels too good. Be safe. Right. Right. And so, You know, With my clients, We would just keep dipping in, Right. Little ventral, Little ventral. And over time their system would reshape towards feeling, Oh yes, This is okay. Right. But I didn't have all these different parts that were, You know, Giving them a whole different experience all the time. So, You know, I can imagine how complicated that, That must be, You know. Right. And, And, Yeah, And usually I can say to people, Of course it feels uncomfortable. Of course it feels weird. Of course it doesn't feel like you. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So we can work on, On helping you to feel more comfortable. Right. Right. With being regulated. Yeah. Every time. With being, Being connected and being. Right. Right. You know, I think, You know, Every time we dip in, It becomes a little more familiar and familiar is safe to the nervous system. Right. Even, Even familiar that's, That's dangerous becomes safe in some ways because it's familiar. And then what you said about, You know, Safe in connection, I often think we are the first predictably regulated human that our client's nervous systems have had a chance to be in connection with. And it takes a long time to trust that. And that's actually a really good kind of idea for therapists to have that, You know, Staying regulated is, Is much more than it and quote unquote intervention. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a responsibility we take on when we move into the helping profession and we don't do it perfectly any of us. So we want to have a little sense of grace for ourselves when we dysregulate and find our way back. Right. It's going to happen for every person who works with other people. And yet the more I can be regulated and the more I can hold onto that, The, The better the work's going to be. So yeah, Another both and. Right. Right. And I think it's, You know, Even if we don't put it into words, I think it's good role modeling for the client. Yeah. Yeah, I do too. And I often put it into words. I'll say, You know, I just, I just got distracted for a moment or I just, My system just went somewhere else for a moment, But now I'm back. Can you, Can you feel that? Right. And so, Because that's the, That's the learning, That's the, The retuning to feeling that. And some of my clients will say, I'm so glad you said that because I knew something happened, But I had no idea what it was. It's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's that interesting use of self when we're working with the nervous system, Right? That we're talking about our nervous systems because we know their nervous systems are feeling what's happening. You can't hide it. Right. I just did a training last week and this week for the California state hospital system, Ah, Which really made me happy because, You know, Those, The patients in the state hospitals have just been on an endless journey and they're still not safe. And one of the things I was talking to them about was don't talk about safety because even the word is threatening. Yes. Okay. And I, So I do this, This piece on, On trauma informed communication, Like, Which is really, It's about regulation, But it's framed in a way that people understand who don't understand regulation. Okay. So, You know, So as it says, You know, Like make sure your facial muscles are relaxed because a stern face or an expressionless face is going to trigger your client. You might as well not even be talking because they won't be able to process it. Right. Right. Her tone of voice, Right. Because if you sound as frustrated as you might feel, It's going to trigger the patient. And then you won't be heard the way you want to be heard. Exactly. Exactly. Relax your shoulders. Yeah. That's actually one of my favorite ways of regulating to relax his shoulders, Relaxing my shoulders. Nice. Because it's tense to relax my whole body and it puts me in a much more regulated state. Perfect. And then you, You transmit that to everyone around you. Right. It's beautiful. Yeah. I like that. Just relax your shoulders. That's nice. It's nice when we find something that works quickly, Easily, And predictably. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I was very grateful to polyvagal theory, Because I realized that I do an inordinate amount of smiling and laughing, Which is very, You know, Based on my very kind of old fashioned psychodynamic training. It's terrible practice to be laughing and smiling. And so I feel like, You know, Steve made it okay to laugh and smile. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. I do love that too. I'm the same. I love I love some humor. I love I actually love a bit of sarcasm with a client, The banter back and forth. And, And, You know, Most clients just, They like it too. And when you find the client who doesn't, You know, Okay, Not, Not with this client. And that's okay. We can be more serious or be more, Whatever that system needs. But most nervous systems love some of that humor and some of that, That banter back and forth. Yeah. Right. And, And I think, Because I think when we're smiling and laughing, It's a communication that nothing traumatic is happening. Yeah. Yeah. You know, You certainly don't laugh and smile in the midst of danger. Right? Yeah. It's a nice thing to think about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We want to communicate. Yeah. This is so great. I'm so glad we had this opportunity. I, I love, I love having a conversation with you. It's been really fun. I love, We can go wherever we want. And we go with each other. And that's felt really nice. So thank you. Right. And we speak, We speak the same language. Exactly. Wonderful. Exactly. So be well, Enjoy your travels. I shall. And, And thank you so much. Thanks, Janina.