The Science Of Wise And Fierce Relationships W/ Gabby Reece

In this episode, Dr. Diana Hill explores what it means to build relationships that are both wise and fierce—grounded in compassion, honesty, and clear boundaries. You’ll learn how to recognize common patterns that pull you into reactivity and how to return to steadiness and connection in the moment.

Expect practical, science-informed reflections you can apply to romantic partnerships, family relationships, and friendships. You’ll leave with a clearer sense of how to communicate with more courage, care, and self-respect.

Transcript

Welcome back,

I'm Dr.

Diana Hill,

This is The Wise Effort Show and today's episode is all about the science of wise and fierce relationships.

This is a talk that I gave and we did an event on relationships.

I gave this short talk and then I had a conversation with Gabby Reese,

The athlete and entrepreneur afterwards.

So this is my short talk on the science of wise and fierce relationships.

You'll hear a little bit about my relationship in there,

Which I rarely,

Rarely talk about on the show and hopefully you will also get a takeaway at the end that you can apply to your relationship this week to strengthen it,

Get out of your story and into a relationship that you want to be in.

Enjoy.

The way that I approach everything is a consilient one.

So I draw from research,

I'm an evidence-based psychologist,

I like to actually read research studies and learn about what people are doing in terms of randomized controlled trials,

Learning,

You know,

They research things like sex life and they research intimacy and they research nonverbal cues and how those impact our relationships.

But I also like to draw from my many years as a clinical psychologist,

Over 15 years of sitting in rooms with people who share with me things that they don't share with their spouses.

And I watch relationships fall apart and come back together again or people sit on the edge of a relationship for many,

Many years,

Really making that difficult decision of whether or not they should stay or they should go and then what happens when they go or what happens when they stay.

And then I also have my own relationship.

So I don't,

I so rarely talk about my husband,

Like never,

Never.

But tonight I'm going to talk about him.

The thing that got me is he's a really good dancer,

Like a really good dancer.

And when I was recently on retreat in Costa Rica and I was at this table and it was all the bigwigs in my world.

So it was Jon Kabat-Zinn who to me is like sitting next to Sting and one of the founders of mindfulness and it was Dan Siegel,

The interpersonal neurobiologist and Alyssa Eppel who studies telomeres and I was sitting at the table and I started telling this story and they were all chatting about,

You know,

Talking about the latest and the greatest and I started telling this story and the whole table got quiet.

So I'm going to tell it to you.

And I was telling it to my friend,

Trudy Goodman,

I was saying,

You know,

Right before I came here I was in my kitchen and it was the night before leaving on this international trip.

I was still in my work clothes,

I was making chili because I make a meal every week for my neighbor whose husband has cancer.

And I was making them chili and then I was going to freeze some for my husband.

And we had 30 minutes before we had to go and I had to take,

Go pick up one kid and then he had to go pick up the other kid and I had to pack my clothes and make the chili and change out of these clothes and get on my flight and my husband comes up to me,

Let's have sex,

Okay.

When I go,

I'm going to go full Monty here.

So you can imagine if this has ever happened to you,

Has this happened to anybody?

Do you say,

Yes,

Take me now,

Right?

Or if you are 27 years together,

I've been with him 27 years this year,

27 years,

Do you say something that really is unkind and breaks their heart a little bit?

And then what happens,

Right?

What is the unraveling that happens as a result of that?

So I actually was not the wisest and I was not,

I was a little bit fierce but not wise in that moment.

You may have heard of John Gottman,

The Gottman Love Lab.

And a lot of times in talks and psychological talks,

They love to mention the Love Lab because in the 90s,

The Gottmans got together and they did these really cool longitudinal studies where they'd have people come in,

Newlyweds,

Come into their lab and they had two conversations.

Talk for 15 minutes about just your day and then talk for 15 minutes about your conflict.

And then they followed them for 14 years.

And then they said,

You know,

After 14 years of following these couples,

What we found from those videotaped coded conversations was if these four horsemen were present,

Contempt,

Shutting down,

Criticism,

Defensiveness,

In those conversations,

They could predict your divorce with 87% effectiveness.

So but why am I still married?

Who hasn't had a conversation with their partner over the last 20 years or 10 years or five years that hasn't at some point included some degree of contempt or shutting down or criticism or defensiveness?

And like most of the studies that they've done in the 80s and 90s,

They tend to get a little bit debunked in the 2025s,

Which is there's a lot more contextual things going on in relationships.

Like how are you repairing?

What's happening after that little I don't want to have sex with you in the kitchen?

What happens next?

So what happened next was my husband went out the door and he's like,

Fine.

And,

You know,

We go and and then we're like texting.

You know,

We're like texting.

We moved from harmony to disharmony,

Which is a normal course in all relationships to move from harmony to disharmony.

And what the research shows is that it's actually not the harmony or the disharmony that matters.

It's the repair.

So along the way in those text messages,

I could show them to you,

But I won't.

And they said,

You hurt me.

I feel like you're not prioritizing me.

I feel rejected.

So this is a man who married a psychologist and has been trained on feelings.

And when he said that,

I remembered something,

Which is the power that we have in our relationships that is the most dynamite power that we have,

The people that we love,

They're the people that we can harm.

And it's like it seems so simple,

Like,

You know,

Swatting a fly.

But in that moment,

We can really do harm and we hurt because we care.

So it touched me in my heart.

Now,

The repair part is so important that because he melted me and because then we started to go into this other form of a new harmony,

We were able to find our way out pretty quick.

And let's just say that night was pretty good for all parties,

Right?

So we move in and out.

And if you believe that our relationships should be linear,

Then that's not the way that relationships work.

So I took this deep dive into looking at,

OK,

What does the science say about how do we have satisfying relationships?

And there was a large study,

2020 study,

But we used machine learning to look at over 11,

000 couples.

They combined 43 different research studies and pulled together what are sort of the main things that you need to have that we want to be investing in to have healthy relationships.

And the first one is commitment.

And commitment is showing your commitment to the relationship that you matter to me and being responsive,

Demonstrating our values and the commitment and know that they are committed to you.

And there's lots of different ways in which we don't walk through those sliding door moments to demonstrate our commitment.

We just think they're always going to be there.

So we can just dismiss the most important person.

There's nothing more important than this person,

Right?

The deeds matter,

And it's really the small things that accumulate over time that either erode a relationship or grow a relationship.

I just want to say it again.

It is the small things that erode your relationship or grow a relationship.

Many relationships have big things like transgressions,

Like affairs.

Here's an interesting fact.

Two-thirds of marriages that have affairs stay together,

Two-thirds.

So it's not necessarily the big things that means it's going to blow up.

It's the little things.

And then appreciation.

Are you expressing appreciation or do you feel appreciated and seen on a regular basis for who you are,

For what you contribute?

And then interesting stuff on sexual satisfaction because that's something that oftentimes my clients will come in,

They'll ask me like,

Is it normal?

How much sex should we be having per week?

Aren't you curious what the research says?

So there's a median.

So median is when a statistic where you line up all the numbers and you look at which one is in the middle of all the lineup of numbers.

And the median number of times per month that couples in America have sex is three times a month.

Up to about once a week,

There's an increase in satisfaction.

But over once a week,

It's a curvilinear relationship.

It doesn't really mean that more is more.

So this morning I was reading this woman,

Amy Mews,

Because she has a couple of different studies.

The study about getting it on versus getting it over with.

Sexual motivation,

Desire,

And satisfaction in intimate bonds.

And what her research is showing is that if you're just trying to get it over with and it's that once a week or three times a week or five times a day,

I don't care,

You're not going to have the same kind of sexual satisfaction as if you're getting it on.

So we need to look at sexual satisfaction,

Not just number of times.

Although a lot of people think about it's the number of times that you're having sex that matters.

So I emailed her this morning.

I said,

I want to interview you because she's got all these other cool studies.

We'll see what she does.

Be on the lookout for that.

Okay,

So in my own observational research,

I also look to people who I see as having healthy relationships.

And this is Trudy Goodman and Jack Kornfeld,

Who I was just on retreat with.

Jack used to be a monk and they married in their 70s and they're now both 80 years old.

Jack in Costa Rica was running on the beach,

Like jogging.

And Trudy is boogie boarding.

And Trudy and I,

We write together on Zoom.

So we open up our computers together.

She founded Inside LA down in Los Angeles.

She's a meditation teacher and just a lovely human.

And we open up our computers and I'll see Jack like in the background in his bathrobe.

And every once in a while,

He'll bring her a plate of asparagus.

And she'll say things like,

Jack just makes the best asparagus.

And I watch them.

What's going on here in this relationship?

Because here's the statistics on a fourth marriage,

Which is what Trudy is on.

Your first marriage,

Many of us think that 50% of people get divorced.

But the stats are your first marriage,

You have about a 40% chance of divorce.

Your second marriage,

60% chance of divorce.

Your third marriage,

70% chance of divorce.

Trudy is on her fourth.

And they are the healthiest couple that I've ever seen.

They're so healthy.

So what's going on there?

What's different?

Commitment.

Do you believe that they're in this with you?

And what values are you committed to?

Not just are you committed to staying married,

But are you showing up every day in a way,

Repairing when needed to repair,

That demonstrates your values?

Appreciated.

Do you feel seen and appreciated?

Are you responsive and appreciative?

Sexual satisfaction,

Are you getting it on?

Or are you just getting it over with?

Right?

So these are sort of the primary three things that the research shows.

But another thing is the assumption that you're in it together,

That there is a we in this.

David White,

Who is also at this retreat,

Is a beautiful poet and an Irish poet,

Wrote this poem that your greatest mistake is to act the drama as if you were alone,

As if life were a progressive and cunning crime with no witness to the tiny hidden transgressions.

Like all the tiny hidden transgressions that we have in our relationship,

As if there's no witness.

To feel abandoned is to deny the intimacy of your surroundings.

We forget that in our relationships,

The very thing that is going to heal the relationship is the intimacy of the union of the two,

Of the us,

Not you going off by yourself and figuring it out and them going off and figuring it out,

But coming together.

So there's something in couples therapy that we call the more the more.

And we're going to do,

We will do a little exercise with this.

The more the more.

The more the more is that the more you do something,

The more they do something.

And the more the more can either go in a positive upward spiral of more intimacy and connection,

Or can go in a negative downward spiral of what Terry Real calls normal marital hatred.

Normal marital hatred.

One of the first couples therapists,

I think his name's Frauma,

Where he said,

Your real relationship begins when you wake up and the person sitting next to you is not the person that you married.

And then you realize,

Okay,

Now we have some work to do,

Right?

So the more the more.

And the way the more the more works in the negative direction is the more stuck in a story you become,

And this goes for dating too.

Many of the people that are here,

Maybe are here to,

Many of you that are here are here to deepen your current relationship or you're interested in starting a new one.

And you have all sorts of stories about yourself and you have all sorts of stories about other people.

And the more that you are stuck in your story,

The more the other people will get stuck in theirs.

The more the more,

The more you avoid discomfort,

The more uncomfortable you will become.

If,

Just an example of coming up here and talking,

I'm so not uncomfortable talking in front of people,

Because I do it a lot.

But I used to be very uncomfortable.

So how do we become more comfortable socially?

We engage socially.

It's like an assignment.

This is like what I train my clients to do.

Like,

Okay,

Go and like ask someone three questions today.

You know,

Go to a coffee shop or start a conversation or go to an event like this.

The more the more.

The more that you hold on too tight,

The more they will hold on too tight.

And that is a very common one in terms of control,

Holding on too tight to control,

Holding on too tight to being right,

Holding on too tight to your perception of things.

So in the summers,

We go to a monastery for our family vacation.

And this was our working meditation this past year in the monastery.

The whole week we were trained on cushion putting out.

And we were also trained on sweeping the monastery floor.

And it's in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh and these brooms,

It's like sweeping the floor with a watercolor paintbrush.

They're made of the most beautiful material you can ever sweep a floor with.

And the monks and the nuns that trained us on sweeping the floor,

Trained us to do a couple of things.

One is,

There'll be sort of two doors that are open.

While you're sweeping the floor,

Stuff will come in as you're sweeping stuff out.

So the first thing that they trained us to do is when you're sweeping,

Let go of the stuff that's coming in and just focus on the sweeping.

The floor is never gonna be clean,

Right?

So we think about that in terms of your relationships.

There's a lot to let go of and a lot that you actually wanna focus on.

And the key is to know what to not pay attention to and what to pay attention to.

The next thing that they told us while we were sweeping these floors,

Or the next assignment is,

When the bell rings and it's time to stop sweeping the floor,

Put the broom down.

So the broom,

Putting the broom down is your story.

When the bell rings and you wake up to,

This is a moment where my husband just told me he's feeling rejected and I'm not prioritizing him,

Put down my story of all the reasons why I'm not,

Because I'm wearing the la-la-la and I have to do this and I have to do that.

Put the broom down and listen.

Stop.

So we're gonna do a little exercise here,

A little wise and fierce exercise,

Is you have a little note card and a pen.

On one side of the note card and pen,

You can think about either a relationship that you're in right now,

If you're in a romantic relationship,

Or you can think about if you wanna do it with another relationship.

So it could be with your child or your parent or a sibling.

And this is a more the more question.

On one side of the note card,

I want you to write down one story or a few words,

Like three or four words that you have about this person when you are in,

Like you're rigid,

I'm right,

They're this,

They're that,

Okay?

One side,

You're gonna write down your story about your partner.

The other side,

You're gonna write down what is their story about you?

She's controlling,

She doesn't prioritize me.

Okay,

So one side,

Just three,

Like three words,

Don't tell,

Like three words about your story about this person.

It could be about your mother-in-law,

It could be about your cousin,

Just a relationship you wanna work on.

What's your story about them?

What's their story about you?

Would anyone like to share?

You don't have to.

Okay,

Here's the thing about these stories.

There's a negative truth.

We often say,

Let go of the story or try it,

That's a dysfunctional thought.

Look at the story about you.

Is there a negative truth?

Just say yes or no,

Is there a negative truth?

I mean.

Oh,

Absolutely.

Negative truth?

100%.

Negative truth?

Yes.

Anyone wanna share?

You wanna share their story about them?

Okay.

Ooh,

Other side.

There's a negative truth,

Right?

It's kind of a sometimes.

But here's our work.

Here's the biggest gift you can ever give somebody that you love.

Prove their negative story about you wrong.

Prove it wrong.

Do something that proves that story wrong or that is against that story.

So that's what you're gonna do with the story about you.

Here's the story about them.

This is what we do with that story.

Look for disconfirming evidence.

Look for all the ways in which that story is not true.

If you start to highlight and look for the things that are not true,

Then that's what will grow.

So that's a little exercise takeaway.

I had a million of these for you,

But I always over plan these,

So we're gonna close because I know you wanna be here for Gabby.

And she's gonna be the real deal.

So she is gonna come up and talk a little bit about her experience in relationships.

And we're just gonna have a bit of a back and forth.

So come on up,

Gabby.

What's Laird's story about you?

Oh,

Geez.

Well,

It's 30 years,

Right?

I think one of Laird's stories about me might be,

I'm sometimes in my head,

I can be far away.

Yeah.

Is there a negative truth?

Oh,

No,

It's just totally true.

It is.

But that's why I can live with him because I have the ability to not react.

I can watch something happen and think about it because he's all heart-based.

And so if he was with somebody who was super reactive,

It would probably be really exciting for about two years.

So that space of being able to assess what's happening,

So it works both ways.

Yeah,

So we were,

Gabby and I were chatting just while you were driving up,

And we were talking about your combination of warmth,

And I used the word professionalism,

But you used a different word.

What was it?

No,

You said polite.

Oh,

Okay.

My friend said professionalism.

Professionalism,

Okay.

Because I did an event and she goes,

You're very warm,

But you're somehow,

And I was like,

I think I'm like that with everything.

Yeah,

Yeah,

And then how that shows up in your marriage,

That sort of polite professionalism aspect of things.

Yeah,

Well,

Early in my marriage,

So especially for men,

I think this is a really interesting line that was told to me about a year into my relationship.

I had a mother,

And actually it was three years in because unfortunately Laird's mother passed two years into our relationship,

And he said,

And she died.

And I remember thinking,

Oh,

That's very clear.

I'm not your mom.

And so what that did is it liberated me from ever thinking that I was anything other than his partner.

And so I saved all that energy because I think it's a tendency.

Oh,

That joke was inappropriate.

Oh,

Why'd you say that?

And you do,

Do,

Do.

It's like that got all taken off the table.

So that reoriented the way I thought about things very quickly.

And so that was very helpful.

But the way it shows up is it's sort of like this quiet,

And again,

I'll use athletics a lot as an analogy.

I have a coach that I played for in college that is still my very dear friend.

And to give you an idea,

I went into college in 1987,

So it's been a minute.

And I have a very close,

Intimate relationship with her,

And I also have a deep reverence and respect for her that I've never dropped the ball on that.

And I have that in my relationship where I have this deep love and honesty,

But I have a respect that somehow you learn.

I say I never kick my feet up,

Which takes weirdly like discipline.

It doesn't mean I don't have bad moments.

It doesn't mean that I haven't,

But I've never said like,

Go fuck yourself,

Let's just say,

Or something like I've never lost it that way because in the moment you're like,

One,

I don't mean this.

And two,

I don't wanna have to apologize or lose trust because I can't control myself.

And so I think through athletics,

I sort of learned how to house both.

And that has been very,

Very helpful as a business person,

As a wife,

As a mother.

I might've said that to one of my teenage daughters,

I confess,

But she needed to hear that.

So let's be clear,

There might be a time and a place for that.

So,

Yeah,

You're a controlled.

You're not,

You said you're not Laird's mother,

But one thing that you told me off the air that you shared other places,

So I'm sure it's okay to share here.

No,

I was excited.

I was like,

Ooh,

Where are we going?

Was your own mother and your relationship with her,

And she was a circus performer?

Yeah,

My mom trained dolphins in a circus.

And yeah,

I know,

It's weird.

In Mexico City,

When I was two,

And then I got whooping cough,

Or whooping cough,

And I ended up living with childhood neighborhood friends of my mother from age two to seven.

So I did not live with either one of my parents at that time.

So it was,

Yeah,

It was a very early start to learning how to take care of myself.

Yeah,

That's what I wonder about,

The taking care of yourself part of it,

And how that shows up,

Like how that thread of early attachments.

We know that our early attachments,

Those primary attachments from zero to two,

Which we don't really remember,

And then from two to four,

We kind of remember.

Influence later.

The lady who took care of me was five feet tall,

And very,

Very overweight,

And she was from New York,

And she would take me shopping.

He worked in sanitation.

They didn't have any money,

And she would take me shopping.

And by the time I was seven,

I was five feet tall.

And they would go,

Oh,

Is this your daughter?

And she'd be like,

What do you think?

Right?

And so I think I was deeply loved,

And I have a great appreciation for people who would take someone on that isn't their child,

And who was probably pretty precocious and strong-willed.

But that goes into what we've talked about,

Which is I am very much of service to my family,

And that includes Laird,

And Laird's passions,

And his mission,

I'm there to support him.

But also,

One other trait I have is that I'm ruthlessly selfish.

And people sometimes,

Like they think,

Oh,

How do you guys work this out?

And I'm like,

Because weirdly in it,

Both of us have this selfishness that we are taking care of ourselves.

And then somehow,

That has created more runway to be of service to each other,

To our daughters,

To our work,

To whatever.

And sometimes,

Especially women are not encouraged to figure that dance out.

And I also have learned that we are taught,

I wanna be good,

And we think that that means being nice.

And that's actually not true.

I want to be a good person.

I wanna be of service.

I wanna be honest.

But that isn't entangled with being nice.

And so I think learning that early has really been helpful in dancing in a marriage.

Absolutely,

And that combination of the intimacy and wanting to be,

Genuinely wanting to be kind,

But also the differentiation.

So Laird is big wave surfing right now,

And he's being ruthlessly selfish in his own way of taking care of what he wants to take care of and do what he loves.

And then you do that in your way as well.

And I often see with couples,

They find that they have to kind of trail after each other.

The thing coming from me,

Coming from sports,

I understood early.

I think sometimes,

Sometimes I'll make statements that are gender based,

But it's just seems to be patterns that I've seen.

It's harder for women to have fun.

Like I'm not as much fun as Laird.

And when you see women that know how to have fun,

You're like,

Yeah,

They're getting it.

It's like Laird also knows that it's fun.

And it's a lot of times if you haven't had something else yourself,

You're now in competition with this thing that your partner's having fun with instead of understanding how valuable that is and that they bring the fun home with them.

It's in them.

They share it with you versus like,

Why do you have to go golfing or whatever people say to each other.

And so certainly I wasn't gonna get involved with Laird surfing.

When I met Laird,

I interviewed Laird.

This is who he is.

And it's what makes him him.

And that's the other side of it.

Is this us drawing the line to their fun or their thing is the thing that makes them them,

That you love about them.

And so that was easy for me because I came from playing volleyball and it was like,

Yeah,

Of course,

Go do your thing.

So we didn't have to learn that so much.

Yes.

And I often see later on in couples,

Like if you move it,

You take the thread out to in your seventies,

You're like,

I wish he had a thing,

So that the support of you going the thing that circles back to the energy within your home and a little bit of mystery and a little bit of seeing them from afar is extremely attractive as opposed to them squashing their thing.

Yeah.

And I think,

Well,

That's why oftentimes you'll see as people,

The kids move out or whatever,

They start to make the choice.

Like,

I'm either going to go have some fun and realize that life is short,

Right?

The runway gets shorter and shorter.

I mean,

I'm 56 years old.

It's like,

You start going,

Oh,

Wait a second.

And so you have these other opportunities though to make these choices.

And I also think it's never too late.

And you've had enough experience that you realize most of it's kind of bullshit.

And the things I worry about are pretty silly and never have happened.

I spent so much time ruminating on like,

Well,

This could happen and that could happen and it doesn't,

That you learn like,

You know what?

I'm just gonna go out there and have some fun.

One of the lines that I took away from our last conversation that was so good is what's the point?

Yeah,

So I interviewed a gentleman named Joe called Jim Quick with a K and he teaches people how to read faster and memorize more,

Which I think is funny.

I think it's just called skimming,

But okay.

Anyway,

So Jim says,

Oh,

You know,

We all have a driving question.

And the minute he said it,

I was like,

Oh,

I know mine.

And he goes,

Do you know yours?

And I go,

I know mine and I know my follow-up.

And my leading question,

And I'll give you an example before I tell you mine.

If I say,

Hey,

Susie's coming over and her leading question is,

I hope they like me.

You know a lot about her.

And so he goes,

What's your leading question?

I go,

What's the point is my leading question.

That's why if you take me to a big house with a big entranceway,

I go,

Yeah,

Okay,

What's the point?

Like there is some mechanism in me that it's like,

If there's no,

What is the point?

Like all the stuff.

And the next question behind it is how should I,

What is the best way for me to be in this situation?

How can I show up?

And so I thought it was so fascinating that when we understand what our leading question is,

That it really lets us know something about ourself.

But also I believe we have the opportunity to maybe change our leading question or modify it if it doesn't serve us.

I mean,

I personally think my leading question is great,

But it doesn't leave a lot of room for fun or frivolousness,

Right?

Because it's like,

What's the point,

What's the point?

So I'm working on modifying that.

Like maybe I have a Monday through Friday,

What's the point?

And then like a Saturday,

Sunday,

What's the point?

Yeah,

And how do I want to show up?

I like the second one.

That's more my leading question is that.

How should I show up?

How do I want to show up and how can I prioritize?

For me,

It's prioritizing love.

Like what's underneath it that I want to prioritize in my relationship,

The love,

The heart space.

But we talked a little bit about differences with that.

About the way you and I are?

Yeah.

Yeah,

We were talking about like if you were in conflict or let's say you're in a situation with your partner,

Diana's like,

Well,

I don't want to hurt him.

And I was like,

Oh,

That didn't even occur to me.

What occurs to me is like,

What do I want the outcome to be?

How do I want them to feel?

What,

You know,

I don't want to get myself entangled into a hassle.

So it's like,

Oh,

But we were talking about that this is really important because,

I don't know if any of you experienced this as parents.

Me as a mother,

Sometimes I would go to a friend's house and they had like all the crafts and like,

Oh,

We're making Christmas cookies.

And I go,

Oh God,

I'm a terrible parent because that's not my language.

I have other language.

But once I realized like we all kind of have languages and once we can sort of feel good about that and be like,

Yeah,

This is the way I do it at my high level.

It's the same with when you're with your partner.

I don't need to be like,

Oh,

I don't want to hurt Laird's feelings.

I don't,

Of course I don't.

But that's not what occurs to me.

It's like,

Hey,

I want to set this up to be great for him.

How could I do that?

Also,

I don't really have time to get into a thing.

So I want to avoid that.

And so really also within it,

It's like,

However you show up as yourself and also accept that from your partner because they have their own language too.

And can you receive it that way?

And once you can do that and have confidence in that,

I actually think it frees you up to be better than,

Well,

I don't do it like Diana.

She's so kind and wow,

You know,

She's thinking about,

She doesn't want to hurt him.

It's like,

Yeah,

Cool.

Like you do it that way.

I can do it my way,

But the results can be pretty similar.

And we talked about how some of that comes from our life experience of you being an athlete and me being a therapist.

So I hear about her feelings all day long and I'm like,

Oh God,

I don't want to treat him the way someone else is treating their partner.

You know way too much.

I only have one marriage to go with my reference,

But you know a lot more than I do.

Feelings,

Yeah.

So the day-to-day,

You're pretty dialed.

You have formulas for everything,

Your workout,

Your,

You know,

How you all eat,

But you also have formulas for how you engage with each other and sort of what you make sure that you're hitting the marks of on a daily basis.

What are some of those,

The things that you make sure that you're doing in your relationship?

Well,

The good news about being with somebody who,

And I've said this a lot,

Laird is emotionally,

And yeah,

Okay,

It would seem obvious based on his occupation.

He's just a lot braver of a person than I am in all ways.

His ability to just like,

Here it is.

You never question what this person's thinking and feeling.

That actually makes it a lot easier for a person like me to learn how to do that as well.

But we usually start our mornings with just time together.

You know,

All of you,

If you have children,

It's like a lot of parts of your life revolve around the children,

But we always,

Laird makes my coffee for me every morning,

Which again,

The small things.

And quite frankly,

It's practicing that connection.

I learned maybe 10 years into my marriage,

I called it shiny eyes.

If you can't tell,

Even the way I talk,

It's pretty monotone.

I would drive home and I would see Laird in the driveway and I'd think,

There he is,

Look at him,

I love him,

I'm so happy to see him,

But Laird would see this.

So by the time I got out of the car,

He'd be like,

Well,

How's your day,

Right?

And I was like,

Oh shit,

Like he's not seeing what I'm feeling.

And so I learn in the morning when I come down,

And he gets up many hours before I do.

I'm not a person who's like,

Yeah,

Let's go get it.

I sort of take a deep breath.

I think,

Who am I trying to be today?

When I put my feet on the floor,

I go do whatever she's gonna do so that you can be her,

Right?

And when I go downstairs,

So when I'm going down the staircase,

I literally totally fake it.

And I'm like,

Good morning.

So that's the first thing he sees,

Morning,

Because that's how I feel,

But that wasn't what was coming across.

So I learned that probably like,

I don't know,

15,

20 years ago.

It was just a much better way for him to see what I was feeling because this was not working.

And I thought it's like a way that you can set the tone.

I'm also a big believer even if you've had a brutal day,

Unless something literally is on fire,

Wait.

So when I come home,

Hey,

How are you?

Okay,

And then slide into,

You're not gonna believe what happened or whatever.

So these small little practices,

Being with somebody who is demanding in a specific way has again been helpful because it has kept momentum.

So there's sort of a quiet understanding.

I say,

You know,

Your partner's love language.

It's mostly the same for most people,

I feel.

Laird's is sex and food.

Like,

Here's your dinner.

And like,

Hey,

You wanna sneak away?

And don't always make him ask,

Right?

I learned that too.

Seven years in,

It was like,

I only was interested when I felt like it.

And it was like,

Oh yeah,

That's not gonna work.

So do you wanna sneak away?

It's so easy and that shows the other person that you're interested as well.

And keeping the momentum,

Because it's hard when it stalls and one person is reaching and one person is pulling that if you can just keep the momentum.

So I was thinking about when you said if your husband came up to you,

If Laird came up to me in that moment,

I've learned,

You know what I would have said?

Yes.

Because then the act would have been on him.

Like,

We have eight minutes.

You ready?

Because even if I know it's impossible,

I've learned,

Fuck it.

Yeah.

Do you wanna have sex?

Right now,

Let's go.

Eight minutes,

I'm ready.

Because then there's no rejection.

And I'm like,

Let's see how this works out.

This is gonna be exciting.

Because you gotta go get that kid and I'm gonna get this.

I'm ready.

And so I've actually learned,

Because my tendency is to be so practical and like,

Well,

You know,

We don't have time.

We gotta get the kids and I have a flight and I gotta pack.

No,

No,

Yeah.

Let's go.

Yes,

Right now.

I think that practicality is what kills marriages,

To be honest.

And people get into the practicality because it makes sense.

You have to keep all these moving parts going.

But why do the females always do it?

But it's the females that always do it.

And then there becomes a story of she never initiates.

So that's one of those stories to prove them wrong.

What would you have done different?

If you could rewind the tape?

Well,

Now that I heard your yes in eight minutes,

I would do that.

Although I already had a plan.

I had a plan.

I mean,

I was waxed and ready to go to Costa Rica.

So I was like,

Ready.

But it was,

You know,

After I get through all these things.

27 years,

Girl,

Like what do you mean?

A yes is waxed.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

But what would you have said?

Would you have,

Could you have said like,

Sure.

Yeah,

I think that that would have been a smart move.

It would have saved us a lot of time.

But also knowing,

I also know our patterning.

Like you start to know your pattern and you get out of it faster.

So I can get out of it a lot faster than how I used to get out of something like that.

And he knows,

And we both know we're gonna get out of it.

And the secret is to just drop it and go.

I was thinking of something else that I thought was interesting is also we should never be offended that they ask.

What a great gift to be asked to be intimate.

And sometimes we think,

Oh,

You're being insensitive.

It's like,

No,

Man,

You have an impulse and you're asking.

Yeah.

What a great gift.

The day that he stops asking is a sad day.

Yeah.

Right.

And that you're still attractive to them.

They still,

Yeah,

You still are walking in the room,

You know,

And yeah.

I have one for you.

This is maybe too much information,

But why not?

So I often thought,

Laird and I almost got divorced maybe probably 25 years ago.

And I remember,

He's very generous.

He's a generous person.

And I remember he came to get snowboarding gear.

He was in Hawaii,

I was in California and the snowboarding gear was here.

And so he walked down the staircase and he walked out of sight.

And I remember thinking,

Oh yes,

People who give their love freely have a choice not to.

And I remember thinking that it's so easy sometimes to take that for granted when people love so freely and they're generous with it.

And sometimes,

So I made a trick and this is the too much information part is I would sometimes think if I ever got humdrum,

I would just think about,

Are there other women that would like to have sex with Laird?

And sometimes it would give me a view far away of all the kind of cool things about this person that yeah,

Okay,

You do their laundry.

Yeah,

You make dinner.

Yeah,

You're here,

Whatever.

And sometimes if you just thought about like how unique,

Special,

Interesting your partner is and just because you're used to them or you're with them all the time.

No,

Just think about someone else wanting to have sex with them.

And all of a sudden you just hopped right to it.

Because sometimes we learn that lesson right too late.

Like maybe it doesn't work out or you go on and then you get distance and space and you realize like,

Oh man,

We could have tweaked this and that.

And it was pretty great.

Yeah,

Jealousy is a powerful force.

Actually,

I think jealousy can be a source of igniting energy.

My husband works with kindergarten teachers.

Oh,

Cute.

Okay,

Like 99% female and they're all cute and in their 20s and it keeps me on my toes,

Right?

I think that jealousy is just another form of energy of reminding you of what you want and what you want to go after.

So it's a great strategy.

Yeah,

I don't even know that I get jealous so much.

I just look at it from a whole other perspective.

But yeah,

Like you're like,

Yeah.

Because they see them from a different light than the light that you're used to.

Yeah,

I think that's very helpful.

Yeah,

It's good.

Because we all can get complacent.

I mean,

Listen,

I think about that about a health practice.

I mean,

You talk a lot about movement.

You did a book with Katie Bowman,

I know I should exercise,

But that's how I take care.

That's how I train all every day or six days a week because I don't need to lose my health.

I've been injured to cherish it and covet it.

And so using that distance in all things,

I think can sometimes be really helpful.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

Well,

We have time for questions from the audience and I'm wondering if we should go there.

Are you there?

It's like the best part.

Well,

Wait,

I wanna ask you one last question.

So after talking to all these couples and people,

And I have young adult daughters,

I do feel like there's a conversation away from relationships more,

Like for younger people.

And obviously nobody needs anyone,

Right?

We don't need to be in a relationship.

If you can do it and do it well,

It can be really a force multiplier for sure.

But are you more hopeful about people and relationships now in the length of your practice?

What's showing up?

I think I'm more flexible with it.

I think that I grew up,

My parents are married.

They're still married.

They've been married for over 50 years.

I went to Catholic school.

And my vision of what a relationship is supposed to look like is you're supposed to get married and then you're with this one person forever.

And I just see there's many different paths.

There's many,

As Esther Perel would say,

There's many marriages within one marriage,

If you decide,

Or partnership,

You don't even have to be married.

There's many different shifts within one and that people recover and flourish after they leave a partnership or marriage.

And that can be a very beautiful path as well.

And they did rediscover parts of themselves that they had lost.

I think that the thing that makes me feel sad is when you're in a marriage or in a partnership and you feel like there's a part of you that's gone underground that you've lost and that you feel like you can't get it back and that you've resigned to that part of you just not being part of your experience anymore.

And when I work with people in that space,

It doesn't necessarily mean they have to leave their marriage or not,

But that's what I wanna give back for them.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Wise Effort podcast.

Wise Effort is about you taking your energy and putting it in the places that matter most to you.

And when you do so,

You'll get to savor the good of your life along the way.

I would like to thank my team,

My partner in all things,

Including the producer of this podcast,

Craig,

Ashley Hyatt,

The podcast manager,

And thank you to Bangold at Bell and Branch for our music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only,

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatments.