How do we take an honest look at our self-righteous anger?
And what can we do about it?
That's what we're gonna explore today with Dr.
Joseph Sirucci on the YSFR show.
Welcome back.
Today I'm talking to Joseph Sirochi,
Who is a pioneer in research in the area of process-based therapy.
He is a leading expert in network modeling.
He's behind the scenes in all of these ACT communities doing a lot of the AI-generated programming that's being used in process-based therapy and ACT.
And he has a number of books,
Including What Makes You Stronger.
And he's a good friend of mine,
A collaborator We've put out a couple of papers together that he's been the lead on in the past couple of years,
And a paper that just recently came out this year,
A 2026 paper on experiential attachment that I will link to in the show notes.
What I love about Joe Sirocci is besides being a complete brainiac in the area of ACT and process-based approaches,
He can really talk about our psychological entanglements in a way way that is very approachable and real.
And he kind of took me back a little bit at the start of this conversation,
Because he goes into this whole conversation about Jesus and Christianity and Jesus as a model of non-attachment,
Which I thought was a really interesting angle.
And it's interesting because so many times on this podcast,
I talk about Buddhism or I talk about some of these more contemplative practices and religions.
And so rarely do I bring up Christianity or Judaism or other religious traditions that at their roots have a lot of compassion to them.
So you'll hear that,
But you'll hear Joe and I go all over the place.
We're going to talk about anger and self-righteousness and how to step into a place of equanimity and grace,
Even in the face of like wanting to punch back.
We're going to talk about his boxing and my running.
We're going to talk about the core yearnings that we humans have.
We've touched on that topic a number of times,
But you're just going to hear two friends bantering really more than anything else.
I always enjoy having a conversation with Joe and you will too.
You came up with this idea of talking about basically how to be a decent human to stay honest and kind in the face of someone not being decent to you.
And that can show up on a basketball court,
Or it can show up in the workplace,
Or it can show up in your family.
Yeah,
For years.
I don't know.
Can we talk about.
Christian images and metaphors are we yeah,
I grew up in as a Christian Baptist and so But I really didn't have a good family and my dad was a dickhead.
And is a dickhead still probably.
And it was really harsh.
And so I thought I was treated badly.
The image of Christ,
When I was in my Christian training,
Did not appeal to me because I felt like he was being passive and just a victim.
And that,
That all he was taking on the guilt of all humanity and it felt like a kind of victim.
And I was trying to escape that victimhood.
I was trying to.
Become a agent.
For my future and to be active and not be passive like somebody up on a cross.
The reason I mentioned that is because I've really changed my understanding of that story,
The Christ story,
From looking like a victim,
Looking like weakness.
And that's often the way that's characterized.
This kind of compassion is weakness.
Empathy is weakness.
These are political talking points now.
Any kind of consideration of how we treat these immigrants or these others is weakness if you're not harsh.
And I was convinced that was strength for a long time,
But I think I've come around now.
Understanding what that image of Christ means.
For me?
It is that he.
Fully new.
People,
Like their sin,
The fact that he'd been betrayed.
He knew,
He was completely honest.
He had no delusions.
And even.
In that context,
Stephen Wise on the cross.
Being tormented,
He still loves and forgives.
And I thought,
That is not weakness.
That is not weakness,
That is strength.
So it's actually a model of strength.
And I began to understand that as I've gotten older,
Because as you get older,
You start to.
Understand people have lots of motives and there are people who will hate on you and be envious and people will be unfair and people will try and rip you off.
That's all true.
And so one of the hardest questions is how do you maintain.
Your own kind of goodness.
And character.
When that's happening.
Everybody.
It seems like everybody's cheaters.
They're not.
There's plenty of people who love and are kind.
Then why would you be the only decent person?
I think that image of Christ and that idea that able to see and accept people as they are truthfully,
Not lie to yourself and say everybody's nice,
Kind,
Everybody has the best intentions,
Everybody has a good heart,
But to actually honestly understand humans and our weaknesses,
I'm including myself in our group,
And still be willing to act with kindness and compassion,
I think that's courageous.
So now I understand it very differently from when I was a kid.
We see it across so many of the world religions,
Right?
So you're hearkening to Christianity.
There's the Dalai Lama in exile from Tibet and to still have compassion,
The Desmond Tutu at the time of apartheid and have compassion.
And we just think about so many of the people that we look to as our symbols of of grace,
And that is the quality that they have,
Is the quality to endure great suffering and great,
Actually,
Pain directed at them,
And still be able to have the equanimity and the centering and the ability to have compassion for others.
Now,
I want to look at this.
People are going to be like,
We're opening this story with Jesus on the cross.
Diana,
This is not the podcast we're usually listening to,
And I thought we were talking about OGD and this behind-the-scenes of ACT and process-based therapy.
So I do want to get scientific about it a little bit into the psychology of that because there's a whole lot going on when somebody is attacking you that happens in your nervous system,
That happens in the stories that come up that are activated in your mind,
Your self-protection,
And the ways in which we don't act kindly back because we get kind of hijacked a little bit.
It's not just only like you just have the power to be a better person,
Right?
Yeah,
You get attacked and each of us.
Tries to tell a moral story about how we're right and we're the good ones and that person is the bad one.
And it's just so tempting to be fooled into that delusion.
And that's not like Gandhi or these other people you mentioned where they're somehow able to Maintain equanimity and not go into that kind of power move,
That moral high ground.
Where you're using the moral high ground to suppress or dominate people,
You're able to resist that and stay.
Incredibly human and open,
Looks that way from the outside.
They look compassionate and open,
Like they're not doing that dominance move.
That's hard.
And you're right.
It hijacks all those emotions and it hijacks our moral reasoning and makes us,
Everybody thinks we're on the moral side.
I'm sure Hitler even thought he was morally right.
It's hard to find a villain that says,
No,
I'm actually just a villain.
This is bad.
And I acknowledge it.
That's what I'm,
You know,
There's probably some story behind So I guess it's like.
There's a certain amount of wisdom in the title of your podcast.
Wise distance that's needed.
From your own defenses,
From your own hurt,
To be able to step out and see yourself as an interconnected whore.
I think there's wise distance,
But there's also,
So one way I think about it was it's like something's kind of smoldering and catching fire.
Am I adding kindling to that fire?
It's it's hot in here.
And if I'm in a conflict with someone,
It's hot in here.
And am I going to add if what I just say or do now that either it defends me or says more of my side and how I'm right,
Knowing that will only inflame this thing.
Yeah.
And that gets you further entangled.
It gets you further entangled.
And the nature of fire is that we both breathe the smoke.
So recognizing that,
Like we're polluting.
If I pollute the system,
I'm in the same system as you.
I think that I'm like hurting you or I'm defending myself,
But really I'm and making it worse.
And I was telling you that this morning,
I got this.
This is one of these long,
Stupid stories.
But the long,
Stupid story is that we're constructing our house.
We had to tear down this redwood building.
I had preserved some of this redwood for this person.
And they came to pick up the redwood,
And not all the redwood was there.
And they were so mad at me for not having it.
There was like five pieces of redwood.
It should have been seven.
I don't know,
Right?
And they threw at me,
You're negligent for not saving all my redwood.
And everything in my being wanted to be like,
Oh,
Really?
You know what I've been doing?
I've been saving this person's life.
I wanted to put up all my defenses of how they're wrong.
And I could tell in that moment.
That if I did that,
That I'm going to get twice as much back.
So sometimes our desire to not,
It's like almost like I don't want to add to the toxicity of it.
You'd be entangled by it.
You'd become part of it.
You'd be thinking about it.
Then later on,
It would just continue in your mind,
Living rent free for days,
Months,
Sometimes years.
So each of those is an entanglement.
There's no separation.
It's rare that you get to just absolutely dominate and prove somebody wrong.
And it just ends like that.
Like it's,
I've almost never had a situation like that.
If you embarrass somebody,
They will hate you forever.
If you witness somebody in a shameful state,
They will hate you forever.
That's why that,
I guess it's not possible,
I guess,
To do that without yourself being entangled.
Yeah.
OK,
So it really is like karma.
Tell us the psychology of it,
Because it all sounds very,
We're just like two friends having a conversation about this topic.
But as from a perspective of a psychologist,
From a positive psychology perspective,
From a science,
What's going on there in the inner psychology of that?
I think I've talked about attachment on your podcast previously.
Yes.
But we're attached to feeling powerful,
Strong,
And right.
That's how we want to feel.
That's the high we're chasing,
Right?
And that's why outrage sells so well.
It's like the attention economy.
We click on things that cause outrage because it makes us feel strong.
We want to feel angry.
Anger is an addiction.
So.
You at that moment when that person was attacking you.
You had to feel submissive if you didn't do anything.
You had to let it go.
You had to not have the last word.
You had to let go of an addiction,
Which is to be powerful and right.
And you probably could have outsmarted them.
You probably could have come up with some sort of witticism or some critique.
And maybe you could have had the last word.
I don't know.
Probably,
Though,
It would have caused a cycle of rumination and anger,
And they would have responded,
And then there would have been a follow-up.
So I think it's about letting go of the addiction of being right,
Of being powerful,
Of sometimes allowing yourself to feel powerless,
Which is,
It's a weird thing to say,
But that's the image of the Christ on the cross.
That's the powerlessness of it.
It's not that you're going to be powerless,
Like you would actually,
If you fought that person who was a hater,
Who was trying to take you down.
You would feel powerful initially,
But it would actually undermine you over time because you'd be ruminating.
That person would come back at you.
Now you're in your battle.
And if you're in a battle with a person whose lifetime is spent in negativity,
They're really skillful at being negative.
They're really skillful at resentment.
They're really skillful at hanging on to anger.
And if you're going up against them,
They're going to kick your butt when it comes to anger,
Right?
So that initial high you get from,
Italian moth.
Comes at a cost later on,
Like all addictions.
The addiction is usually fun in the beginning.
And has these costs at the end.
So I think we got to think of it as an addiction.
We got to just let go of that present moment.
Yeah,
I've got,
There are times where somebody has done something totally stupid and I know it's unfair.
And anything I do would just entangle me and make it worse.
So when you're in that situation where it doesn't,
Even though it's completely unfair,
You're in the right,
Let's say everybody would agree with that.
But if it's the case that anything you would do would make you more entangled and make things worse.
Then you have to let go of that addiction of being right.
You have to let it go.
You have to allow yourself to be powerless in that moment.
Or greater longer term commitment.
Yeah.
What's the seems like there's a line there.
Maybe it's dimensional because there is there is a point where letting go and being powerless could put you in position of victimhood.
Yes.
You don't want to be a victim.
Yeah.
So it's like there's,
Maybe there's,
I remember teaching this when I,
When I used to teach like groups for like women's groups.
And I'd be like,
On one end of the spectrum is aggression.
On the other end of the spectrum is passivity.
And you want to be in the assertiveness middle path,
Right?
Of this like basic communication training.
So it's not like moving into aggression.
I'm right.
And then,
But it's also not being walked all over.
Well,
It depends what's driving it.
So what's driving it?
The way you're describing it is what's driving it is its effect in the world.
Like you're trying to be effective.
You want to draw boundaries and tell somebody it's inappropriate.
And I've done that in the right context and it does work.
It backs them up.
So that's being effective.
What I'm talking about is the reason you're doing it is to feel something.
So I'm saying even when,
Let's say whatever you do in this situation will only make things worse,
Right?
Now the guy's going to sue you.
Now he's going to call you in the middle of the night with heavy breathing or something.
You've got yourself entangled.
So anything you do,
Let's say anything you do would make it worse.
That's the context of the real world.
Then it might be best to let it go.
Okay,
So the distinction here,
This is a distinction.
Distinction is between effectiveness.
Versus driven by feeling.
By a feeling you want to attain.
Attachment to a feeling.
Driven by power,
The will to power.
But not just will to power,
Which is fine.
You want to be powerful in reality.
But what I'm talking about is the feeling of being powerful,
Telling somebody off,
Of being right,
And not letting them walk all over you,
That kind of thing.
I'd explain this to my son with basketball.
I'm like,
Oh,
You just let people be impolite to you.
This is a highly networked community though,
So if I were to say something insulting back.
.
.
It would look like I was being tougher.
But then this person would misinterpret it around the community,
Then there'd be all this gossip,
Then I would be gossiped about,
Then they would be,
And I'd be telling my story,
They'd be there,
And I'd be totally entangled in this whole negative gossip circle.
So I'm trying to explain to him,
I said that me not doing anything in that moment was the best move,
And that actually was strong.
I could,
Of course I could react with anger and be threatening.
Yes,
I could have done that.
That would have looked strong,
Would have brought all these negative consequences on me.
So what you're saying,
Diana,
I totally agree with you.
You had to draw boundaries.
You have to do what is effective,
But what I'm talking about is an addiction.
To what makes you feel powerful,
Not actually what makes you powerful.
That's a distinction.
Everybody wants to feel powerful.
That's why they click on the end.
I do it.
I'm addicted to outrage.
I listened to all these rest of left-wing shows.
Yeah,
Bagging out Trump.
Yes,
I admit it.
I'll surf myself.
And I'm trying to get off the addiction.
I'm like,
This is watching people argue and they,
Whichever side you're on,
It basically goes like this.
They pretend like the other side is doing something incredibly outrageous.
And then the voices of good,
Your side,
Put them down,
Make them look foolish.
I'm addicted to that.
But it's not actually making them more powerful.
Yeah,
A little bit.
Yeah,
No,
That leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
All of it.
But also because I hear,
I've heard enough in my practice of both sides.
They sound exactly the same,
Just change a little bit of the content,
But what's behind it is so similar,
One-sidedness,
One-mindedness,
I'm right,
Righteousness,
They're wrong.
And this moral,
And these are bad people.
That are,
Like,
Dangerous and want to harm.
And really,
Underneath it.
.
.
People have this similar,
Like they just want safety for their family and want to be happy.
When you're in person with them,
When you're like connected,
When you're,
When we're face to face,
But the addiction of the internet and it pulls for attention.
Attention is the reinforcer.
Yeah.
And outrage gets attention.
So you have to say something outrageous and that makes both sides polarize and become extreme.
And we're all addicted to it,
Including me,
At least I've been upset about it.
I know I'm going to have a problem.
I'm going through the 12 steps of outrage addiction.
I'm.
No,
You don't.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a,
There's a space for,
I think it's,
I remember I interviewed these guys,
They wrote the book Blind Sight and it was all about the neuroscience of marketing and it was a neuroscientist.
Psychologist and Prince Guman,
I think,
Was one of the authors.
But anyways,
He talked about,
And they talk about in that book,
If you're zigging,
Make sure to get someone's attention,
You need to zag.
So if anything's one direction,
You need to go in the other direction.
Like sometimes you'll see it in social media where like people are now saying things like mindfulness is bad or whatever.
And then you're like,
Oh,
I'll click on that because I want to know why this is bad or if people are coming out.
Because mindfulness is good.
That's like,
Yeah,
Why would you click on that?
Yeah.
Or there's a bit of it.
There was a thing that came out around like the body doesn't keep the And that was getting like all the because the body keeps the score is the biggest topic,
Right?
So if you put in the body doesn't keep the score everyone's gonna click on it.
So it's not just outrage It's also just anything that wakes your brain up to novelty it the brain wants the brain wants both novelty and safety and And so we'll click on things that make us feel maybe a little bit safer because we're self-righteousness and then they're a little bit Outrageous as well.
I think that that's the dominant idea is that it's about Safety about getting away from bad things that a narcissist is seeking secretly,
Fragile underneath and low in self-esteem.
But this is the argument i've been making I think It's more will to power.
Like I think people who are destroying our world,
It's not enough to have just $1 billion.
Now they need another billion dollars.
It's not enough to have complete control of a country,
A company.
Now they want that company to drag in other companies and become bigger and bigger.
It's just addiction rather than,
Oh,
I feel insecure.
And so I'm reacting in this defensive way.
I think that's the dominant story we tell ourselves,
But I think greed is far more of a destructive force than insecurity.
I think I'd like to hypothesize that at least.
Not everyone that's pursuing greed or power is pursuing it because they're fragile narcissists.
They're actually pursuing it because it feels good to be in power.
It's addictive.
It feels good to dominate and you want to keep dominating.
You score one goal,
Now you want to score two.
Stronger.
Exactly.
That's a different take because if it's.
You're doing it because you feel insecure.
That's a whole nother cause than if you're doing it because it's addictive and feels good.
And you could say people are doing this outrage,
They're angry at each other,
They're attacking,
The left attacks,
The right attacks the left,
Brutally dehumanizes them,
Calls them radical,
Blah,
Blah,
Blah,
Stupid,
Characterizes the whole group in a certain way.
You could say that's from insecurity,
But you could also say it's because one group wants to dominate another group.
I just think it has a different.
Intervention implication if it's that.
Okay.
Because when it's an addiction.
Yeah.
Okay.
If it's insecurity,
Then.
We would help people to feel more secure about themselves.
But if it's an addiction,
If it's like.
.
.
Then it's about helping people to give up.
What feels good now for something bigger later.
You see what I mean?
It's like any kind of addiction.
You have to give that up.
You have to substitute something else.
And maybe it's not immediately as reinforcing.
Cocaine is going to be more reinforcing than going to the gym.
Immediately.
So it's a different kind of psychology,
I think,
Addictions.
This is what a lot of what I say our paper.
I think I was somewhere on that list.
You are on that.
You are,
Yeah.
No,
You contributed mightily to it.
You were the voice of practicality and humanity that made me less academic-y in that paper.
That was good.
Although you have a lot of humanity and practicality right now as we're talking.
I'm like,
Can you be a little more academic so people think that we're not just like.
.
.
I know.
We're not just shoot this shit.
There's actually academics behind this.
But so,
Okay.
But this,
Okay,
So there was a distinction in this paper which you were really trying to make,
We were trying to make,
Which is the distinction between experiential attachment versus experiential avoidance.
And that experiential avoidance is what we hear a lot about,
We read a lot about in psychology if you're an ACT practitioner.
It's a lot of things that we're doing are to avoid discomfort.
And we know about that loop.
And as a practitioner,
We know how to treat that loop,
Which is basically exposure.
Move towards that thing which you are avoiding and get more comfortable with it.
Good.
But that is a very different intervention than if somebody is experientially attached to something.
You don't move towards that thing which you're attached to.
You actually need to let go of that thing and get more comfortable with the discomfort of not having it.
You have to miss out.
You have to miss out.
And that,
Okay.
So we need to talk about that because missing out there is a,
There's an addiction to being right,
Righteous,
All of that and control and power,
But we also have this addiction to more.
And I see it in myself.
That higher career,
More followers.
You want more followers,
Right?
You want more followers.
No,
I don't want more followers.
I just want,
I just want to keep on creating things.
I want to build things.
I want to grow things,
Right?
The bad thing though,
That's the yearning.
Doesn't go away.
I think that's okay.
Is that okay?
That urgency is,
I think that's okay.
I have that urgency too.
It's never enough.
I don't know if that's bad.
I don't think it is.
Is that just creative energy?
Yeah,
I don't think I'm ever looking to a time when I'm just going to retire and not do anything.
Yeah,
That striving and urgency is fine.
But it's just that when it's directed at trying to win an argument online against other internet trolls,
Would be example,
Or if it's becomes about shopping and buying expensive things and always having the best things and it becomes the empty things that doesn't quite satisfy the yearning.
So you have a genuine yearning for excellence and for deeper understanding and for wisdom and then transform yourself.
And become a Diana that in 10 years has transcended this Diana.
And you could even be much wiser and maybe more connected.
I think that's fine.
And that does have an urgency to it.
I think that's okay.
You spent that 10 years.
Trying to,
I think,
Your way to happiness or trying to get that promotion,
Which is hollow and doesn't mean anything,
But it's for status or something,
Or I don't know.
You could imagine how you could waste life chasing after things that are just illusory.
So where the yearning might be to connect with other people,
But what you do,
Chasing likes,
Chasing popularity,
Chasing follows,
Trolling other people,
Makes you feel less connected.
So that's the question,
Does that yearning,
The yearning isn't bad,
But is the yearning towards some delusional thing,
Like being good and a perfect,
Successful,
Rich,
Everybody likes me,
All the symbolic attachments that can suck us in,
Or is it a genuine to this earth,
These people living here,
To this gravitational field,
To that tree behind you with the sun shining through it.
Where is your yearning being directed?
And if it's directed just in the virtual symbolic world,
Which we spend so much time in really,
I think it could be ultimately unsatisfying.
So it's not the yearning that we should be worried about.
It's what we direct it towards.
Yeah.
So you're alluding to these core yearnings that we've talked about in different ways.
You and Steve Hayes and I had a whole episode on the six core yearnings,
Which I think both Joe,
You and I have a pechant for.
I like these yearnings.
They're kind of hidden in a liberated mind,
But they,
These six core yearnings are like these yearnings that humans have,
All humans have that come from,
There's an evolutionary science behind them,
But it's things like the yearning for competence,
The yearning to connect,
The yearning to make sense of things,
The yearning to be oriented.
The yearning to have purpose,
And then you're going to tell me number six because I forgot it.
The yearning.
.
.
For connection purpose,
Competence,
Make sense of things,
Orientation,
And There's one more process.
To feel.
To feel.
The yearning to feel.
Yes,
The yearning to feel.
My goodness.
Yes.
People deliberately do things just to feel strong emotions,
Whether it's fear,
Sadness,
Whatever.
Yeah.
So yeah,
I've added to that.
Because they're not the same as values.
An act of value is a consciously chosen thing you're going to do.
Yearnings don't have to be values.
They're the bigger category.
I think of them as the processes.
They align with the processes,
Yeah?
No?
I think of them as in a motivational.
Motivational,
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
We do yearning,
We do yearn for peace,
Peacefulness and quiet sometimes.
Contentment.
So we didn't put that in there because for an act person,
You're not supposed to say anything about actually having some peace and quiet.
We've all got to be like intensely involved.
Oh,
I broke that rule a long time ago.
I'm too Buddhist for that.
Yes.
We learn for contentment and peace of mind.
Yeah.
Please.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And we yearn for chaos and crazy creative excitement and intensity.
So both those yearnings coexist.
There's not the ultimate status to be sitting in peace,
Watching,
Observing a river.
That might be for some people,
That might be the ultimate.
I feel alive and vibrant.
But so with the,
Back to the self-righteous anger,
Or just like,
What yearning is that?
Is that yearning to feel?
I think it's autonomy,
Control,
Power.
Competence.
The yearning,
When you surround yourself with a bunch of people who say yes to you and agree with you and fly to you,
That's probably.
An example of artificially trying to satisfy the yearning for competence or when you join an outrage group that everybody has the same opinion and is attacking some other group,
That's probably the yearning for autonomy or,
You know.
Feeling like you're in control.
Each one of these yearnings is there's like a it's like there's a human yearning and then we can either operate in a way that misdirects that yearning or we can operate in the way that actually meets that yearning.
And so as a clinician,
If I'm looking at I can look at things through a process based lens.
If you look at things through a yearning based lens,
You could say,
OK,
What is this person really yearning for?
And is there a way to meet that yearning?
Not that your yearning is ever satisfied.
That's the nature of the yearning.
But but to way to meet that yearning in a more effective,
Workable,
Holistic way.
So people,
People work boring jobs,
Get up nine o'clock,
Do the same thing to five,
Get home,
Cook the dinner.
Next morning,
Same thing again and again.
And people yearn to feel alive.
Right.
Yeah.
So one way you could satisfy that yearning is go to the mall and buy cool shit.
That's quite exciting.
I like that.
Or a client that I just worked with who said their husband's up till 2 a.
M.
Playing video games because they work until seven.
He gets home.
He's exhausted.
So he needs stimulation and connection.
So he's on a video game.
He wants to stay.
I've just sacrificed my whole day for other people.
Am I even alive?
I'm going to do something for myself and screw it.
And so that would be,
And then he might be tired the next day and it might undermine his biological functioning.
Then he does it more.
Or his marriage,
But yeah.
Yeah.
So the yearning is real.
Yeah.
But we can satisfy that yearning to feel alive,
Evolved an environment low in sugar and salts and calories.
Our bodies are like,
Wow,
If we get any of that massive reinforcement.
So now we change the environment to be rich in all those things.
So they're a huge hit.
We get addicted to sugary things in an environment that now it's plentiful.
So it's the same thing.
Our bodies get hijacked.
And so our yearnings can get hijacked.
The way to hijack the urinary for competence is just to not take risks and surround yourself with people who tell you you're awesome.
And always exclude people who are critical of you.
That would be an easy way to do it.
I feel powerful and tough.
I think with competence,
People hijack that by,
And you see this all the time with your,
With clinicians is they're just seeking out a certification to feel as competent.
So it's like,
And if you go to some of these continuing education,
They totally are banking on that addiction.
These continuing education programs are like,
You can get a certification and I'm a perfectionism,
Certification and professional perfectionist.
And I have a certification in codependence and I have a certification.
And so you can have a thousand letters after your name and that's a yearning for competence.
You want to feel competent.
So you keep on seeking out things that make you feel competent,
But then you really don't feel competent.
That's a really good example because a lot of people would think that it's actually the learning the techniques and the skills that does it.
When ISIS,
Like the biggest variance in clinical outcome is the clinician themselves,
Not the type of therapy they're doing or the techniques.
It's the clinician.
Some clinicians seem to produce very great outcomes,
Others not so much.
So it's getting more,
Learning more.
Skills,
It's going to be helpful,
But is that going to make the difference?
I don't think we've really answered this,
But is it more like your ability to develop yourself,
To understand your own defenses,
Your own weaknesses,
Your own ego,
All that stuff comes into therapy,
Right?
And interferes with what you might do with the client.
Genuine competence may be coming from your ability to be more present in the room,
More genuine.
And to develop yourself,
To evolve yourself as a person who's able to not have a big fight over the redwoods.
For example,
That's hard to have somebody say something to you and you don't respond.
That's a real mature high character move because there's nothing you could have done in that situation.
So what if competence in therapy involves that kind of character development,
That kind of wisdom?
Rather than just developing more and more skills and certifications.
So that could be,
I don't know,
I'm just hypothesizing that could be the case of that.
A yearning for competence being hijacked,
As you said,
Getting certifications when the hard work is going to be on yourself,
Your own defenses,
Your own psychology,
Being able to get honest feedback from a client.
That's hard.
Getting honest feedback from people who,
So you can improve.
I would say that applies to therapy.
That applies to just relationships in general,
Where I see a lot of folks that just,
They're pouring themselves into every single attachment book that's out there,
Every single self-help book they're trying.
And really what is needed is that.
Is the wisdom building,
Like the ability to have perspective taking on yourself,
The ability to actually listen and be present in the relationship,
To be able to work with your own.
Like your own,
That moment when you are feeling hijacked and to not go after it,
Not to add fuel to the fire.
And,
And that's,
And that's competence in relationships.
So it's not necessarily that you have more communication skills.
And all sorts of companies and organizations will pay lots of money to have people come in and teach skills,
But never actually really practice what is true competence in a relationship.
Okay.
It's interesting that you say that because maybe the same thing that would make you good in relationships would make you a good therapist.
Maybe.
You'd hope so.
But you're saying,
Oh,
No,
You're talking about relationships.
I'm like,
Maybe it's the same thing.
And I'm talking about not just skillful with your friend who thinks just like you and has the same ethical framework as you.
Your ability to go and talk to people who are very different from you,
To be able to not be judgmental,
To see the perspective,
To still have kindness and caring towards them,
Even though they're completely different and some of their beliefs totally you find intolerable.
So that.
That's client work,
Isn't it?
They're not all going to be like your best friend.
No,
No.
Okay,
So where are we?
We found ourselves into yearnings.
We started out with this addiction to anger.
You and Dr.
Judd,
You guys have a similar interest in this addiction to anger.
I wonder if it's a little bit of also like a testosterone thing,
But like,
I have a little bit of that.
Like I'll go,
I will chase my husband down to keep him in the fight.
I'm like.
He's like,
He's trying to back off.
I can see him like he's,
This is getting heated.
I need to move myself.
And I'm like chasing him into the other room.
I'm like,
We're not done yet.
So there is something,
There's something addictive about that that we want.
Yeah.
We just want to,
We want to put our stake in the ground and be right.
And I guess we were talking,
What we started about out about is like,
What is strength and how,
How it's can look like Gandhi,
Like what looks like passivity.
From a superficial glance,
Right?
The image of Christ looks like passivity,
But this is a person who truly knew humans and still loved them.
And I thought to me that contrast and you gave lots of other examples of great historical figures.
To me,
That's like one of the highest levels of wisdom.
I'm not there yet,
Obviously.
I still bear grudges and resent people and pissed off all the time.
But that is letting go of that attachment to being right.
Yeah.
I think that's one of the keys.
And what's the reward?
You said this sort of effectiveness in the long run.
I think we can see it with those figures,
What the reward is.
Actually,
It's interesting.
You get massive following.
The thing that you don't actually aren't even going for will happen for you because there's a trust,
And respect.
I do think,
And maybe people think of it as weakness,
But I do think we see that we kind of respect the guy on the baseball field in front of all the kids and he like kind of backs away and he's like,
I'm not going to do this right now.
But yeah,
What is the.
I think because whenever you get caught up in those.
Petty grievances,
Let's call them,
Are symbolic stuff.
It's entangling,
It sucks your energy away.
People can have arguments with their neighbors for decades and do all these mean things and devote so much negative energy to that,
Right?
And that energy is not being used for something else.
So it's like by subtraction,
It's subtracting your life force.
And we don't have that much life really.
It's a short period of time around this earth.
It's probably 20 years after I'm dead,
Nobody will remember what my name was.
That's okay.
So I think it's You're just removing the things that subtract your life force.
Yes.
And then you have more life force for other things.
I think anytime you shame or embarrass a person,
They remember it.
And you'd be surprised,
I don't know if this happens to you,
You lived in the same area for a while,
But 10 years later,
You might run into a person you knew 10 years ago.
And you're so glad you didn't burn that bridge.
Like,
It's like,
Wow,
Oh boy,
That would have been karma.
Now this person is responsible for hiring my daughter and I could have told them off 10 years ago,
But I didn't.
And they still kind of positive regard for me.
So it has that,
You don't make enemies unnecessarily,
Especially when you can't change things,
When there's nothing you can do.
That's what Rick Hansen,
Who's been my mentor for years,
Good friend,
I consider he's pretty much anything.
Big that I've done came from a coaching session with Rick Hansen.
He's like,
Oh wow.
I'm doing this salon series that I told you about right now,
This tell the truth salon series.
And I had like coaching session with him and he was like,
Diana,
You just want to do stuff.
That's local.
Just go big,
Go local.
And I was like,
Okay,
I'm going for it.
And that's how we're doing this thing.
But he told me a number of years ago.
He gave me some,
He's let me give you a couple of pieces of advice.
And the first piece of advice is do not burn any bridges.
And there's been times when I've come up against a bridge I want to burn.
I'm like,
I'm gonna light a flame to this thing.
Absolutely.
Light it on fire.
And yeah,
Light it on fire.
It'll feel so satisfying.
And I hear his,
I'm like,
I know,
Cause he's been so successful in his life.
And I'm like,
I know it's a bad idea.
So I backed away.
Now,
Sometimes that's meant.
Sometimes the option is like,
And really,
This is like anger management coaching when you're working with somebody that has an anger management problem.
Sometimes it's like my husband moving into another room when I'm chasing him.
Sometimes it's just you need to back away and do nothing is better.
Is better?
Like just do nothing.
Yeah,
That's hard.
That's so hard because you feel like you're being stepped over or something.
But that,
People do not,
Even if you were totally came up with a great one-liner and you put that person down with the redwood and he had no response and he left,
Like now you have an enemy.
They will never forgive you for that.
Nobody will ever forgive you for.
Seeing them when they were embarrassed.
It's unnecessary.
There are times where you have to draw boundaries.
Absolutely.
That's the wisdom to know the difference,
Right?
There are times where you have to assert yourself and say,
No,
This is not right.
You shouldn't do this to me.
I'm not going to put up with this.
I'm going to leave if you do this.
So there's absolutely a time,
It's not passivity,
But a lot of the fights that we would pick have no possibly positive.
Like why would I,
Somebody cuts me off,
Why would I flip them off and chase them around in my car?
What possible outcome could,
Do you know what I mean?
That's an example.
I have to resist it constantly.
But there's more examples of that than the times that you see,
I need to honestly assert myself.
So it's not letting you off the hook to not be assertive and stand up for yourself,
Obviously.
If standing up for yourself improves your life situation,
You should do that.
But you have to ask yourself,
Is it gonna be entangling?
What could change if I got the absolute optimal,
If you optimally put this guy down,
Just embarrass his ass,
Right?
Given the optimal outcome.
I guess you feel pretty good.
It wouldn't be bad.
No,
You feel,
I think what you would feel in the moment is good,
But then you'd feel worried after.
Who are they going to tell?
Who are they going to,
Who are they?
There's a lot of that going on.
Are they going to loop in to hate me that I don't really want to hate me?
Yeah,
They're going to go to your podcast page and leave bad notes or bad comments.
Yeah,
One bad review as a therapist,
You're screwed,
Right?
It's like a doctor,
You don't want any bad reviews on there.
But no,
It's also just that.
For me.
I don't know.
It's just that the moral compass of a yucky feeling.
And you mentioned about a lot of different spiritual figures that have this theme.
And I always talk about Tai Thich Nhat Hanh as one of my people that I look up to and just remembering him protesting in New York by walking really slowly through the streets of New York.
That's how he protested was being like uberly peaceful.
Yeah.
And that actually,
That's how he got attention,
Right?
Yeah.
So in some ways,
That's zigging where you could have zagged.
It's so effective.
So effective.
It is effective.
He was assertive in an effective way.
Yeah.
Because you could really be angry at him because he's so peaceful,
Really.
Yeah.
So you had to think about why is he doing that?
Yeah.
You couldn't think radical left progressive,
You know,
Blah,
Blah,
Blah.
It's just peacefully walking through the street.
Or like a kindergarten,
Like they're really effective kindergarten teachers that know how to command a class because they whisper.
Like the chaotic out-of-control class.
And they're like,
All right,
Children.
And then everyone gets quiet.
So there is something about that too,
Which is when you,
In a moment of rage,
If you can step into equanimity or that more stable,
Peaceful state,
It does disrupt the system in some way,
Often.
And know that it is not weakness.
It is not weakness.
It may feel like it,
But it is not.
It takes a lot of character,
Like in boxing.
Thing you have to do when you're in the ring with somebody,
Somehow,
When this person has bad intentions and wants to hurt you,
Somehow you have to stay calm.
Because if you're not calm.
Everything gets tense.
All your punches come out wrong.
You're,
You don't move well.
So you,
That,
That seems to be,
Wisdom seems to be being able to have the two things coexist.
The kind of.
Being willing to stay calm,
Whisper,
Stay quiet,
While maybe inside you're feeling the exact opposite.
Everything is like,
I'm getting stepped on.
This person's dominating me.
This is unfair.
Okay.
So just Richie,
Boxing.
So you're trying to.
You are a boxer.
What kind of boxing do you do?
Boxing.
Just straight up boxing with like red gloves and Everlast symbol on them.
Okay.
So if you are a boxer,
But now you're changing your tune,
Like how can you be a boxer?
And do this sort of sport that is.
Hurting someone and you're promoting this Jesus.
On the cross.
I know I don't understand it.
I wouldn't want to.
What did Emerson say?
Fullest consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
I don't know.
I don't know why I like it,
But it's not really designed to hurt people.
There's a real camaraderie when you box and when you spar.
There is.
Sometimes people have bad intentions.
And it's exciting and can you protect yourself in that situation?
But it isn't,
At least for me,
It's not me.
I don't know.
There's a lot of kindness and camaraderie in a boxing gym.
There is.
It is shocking.
Won't hug each other in a Western culture,
But they will punch each other.
And that can feel affectionate.
I don't know how to explain it,
Diana.
I apologize for being an insane male,
But this is the way it is for some of us.
You're like puppy dogs,
Like grabbing at each other's necks.
I mean,
Wrestling's the same way.
There's something about men and it's like this aggressive love,
Like expression of love and physicality.
Yeah,
But men do connect men who are tough.
Yeah.
Work hard.
Don't haven't really been trained on how to speak a lot about their emotions or that kind of thing.
This is a way that they connect and it's real.
It's a genuine thing.
And I don't know why I like it and I don't know why I do it.
But it's not really to be mean and hurt people.
It is game-like.
Maybe I'm not a true boxer if I'm not trying to kill people.
But there is this other side of us,
This aggressive side,
That I feel like if you're not in contact with it,
If you don't honestly own it,
That's why I'm always talking about will to power and aggression and attachment.
If you're not in touch with it,
Then I think it leaks out and can distort you,
Can kind of come out as,
I'm morally right and you should be doing this.
And the will to power can be distorted.
In ways that are harmful to others because you're not really saying,
I actually feel this moment kind of submissive because this person has just done this to me.
Okay,
Am I willing to have that feeling?
In order to do what's right.
So I have to be in touch with my aggression,
My desire to strike out.
Then step back from it.
But if I'm not in touch with it,
I'm always lying.
I don't have it.
That's not there.
Then it can really come out in distorted and bad ways,
I think.
So is there a healthy will to power then?
Yes,
Absolutely.
Everybody's got it.
Everybody's got a will to power.
Yeah.
And there's a healthy way of expressing that.
Everybody wants to be powerful.
Everybody wants to be strong.
Everybody wants to climb the hierarchy.
Of course,
Definitely.
Every animal kingdom,
You see this presence of aggression and dominance and hierarchy.
I'm not saying that that's what we're all about,
But people naturally want to.
What Nietzsche calls self-overcoming.
They want to become better,
To transcend,
To push understanding,
Knowledge,
That yearning for something higher.
Yeah,
I think everybody has that and it's not a bad thing.
I think it's interesting that we frame everything in terms of,
Everything bad is just in terms of insecurity,
Rather than that,
A distorted version of will to power.
Yeah.
I think I have a good amount of healthy will to power.
Yeah,
You do.
Of course you can see in your behavior.
You're growing these things.
This is like your fifth project.
I like to go run up steep hills for the fun of it and feel that kind of power.
You know what I do,
Joe?
This is like your boxing.
I go run.
There's this peak right next to my house where we live here in the foothills called La Coomber Peak,
And it's a 12% grade.
It's really steep.
And from my house to the top,
It's eight miles.
So it's eight miles all straight up,
Straight up.
But it's also where a lot of bikers go to train.
And the Tour de France people or even the Tour de California people used to go train there.
But like all the bikers go,
But here's my will to power.
If you are at that steep of a grade,
You can run faster than a biker.
Oh,
Really?
The most satisfying competitive experience is to see two guys on bikes and run past them.
Or run next to them and have a conversation with them because it's that feeling like empowerment.
I feel like there's nothing wrong.
With that,
But maybe there's something wrong with,
If I were like,
I don't know,
Somehow.
If you kicked them over,
If you're running next time,
You pushed them over or something,
That would be a will to power being distorted.
Yeah.
That would be a yearning that becomes twisted a little.
Yeah.
So maybe that's my form of boxing.
That's that kind of camaraderie.
Like we're in a game here of competition and a healthy will to power up a hill or boxing each other.
It's interesting.
I think if you box or fight a martial arts,
I suspect you're less likely to get in a fight.
And that's the paradox.
You're less likely to sit there and beat your chest and be aggressive and escalate.
I don't know why.
It's just because fighting loses its symbolic value.
Nature and it just becomes unimportant or something.
I don't know,
Somehow I'm less inclined to fight even though I know how to fight.
You're not afraid of getting hit anymore.
And when people are afraid of getting hit,
When a guy walks into a bar and there's a bunch of tough guys there,
You get a bit scared and then you react by playing big,
Macho and all that stuff,
Right?
Because that fear of physical violence is always there.
I'm not saying that I would win.
I just am like,
I'd be okay with being hit.
It wouldn't be the end of the world,
Right?
I know that now.
So when I walk into a bar with a lot of really tough guys,
I'm not that fearful.
So I don't do the bravado things.
I don't do the things that are likely to elicit reactions in others.
And so I feel like I'm less likely to get in fights somehow.
I've noticed this.
If I walk by a guy,
A huge guy,
Six foot four tattoos and really scary,
I'll just say hello to him.
And I think everybody who walks by him is a little bit afraid of him.
And I wonder what it feels like for him.
I don't know what it'd be like for people to be walking by and always be afraid of me.
I'd feel that sucks.
I would feel like that sucks.
So I'll just stop and say,
Oh,
Hi,
How's it going,
Dude?
And he'll usually be very happy to talk to me and go,
Wow.
I find it really interesting.
Whereas before I did fighting and if I would be a little bit afraid of him,
I would have been more defensive,
More guarded,
Maybe avoid him,
That kind of thing.
This debunks your whole theory around insecurity,
Though,
Because it's like what you are saying is that you're more secure,
So you're not as much likely to fight,
Which is what you were saying is not true.
That's true.
That's true.
That is true.
I do think experience importance is important.
I'm not saying it's unimportant,
But I'm just feeling like a lot of things that people do is more of attachment.
It's not always that.
It's such a dominant part of our culture,
Right,
That if you go to an AI and you ask it why something's going on,
It will 100% of the time give you the avoidance.
It's insecurity,
It's emotions that you're trying to avoid.
It's just the dominant idea.
AI is an averaging of what everybody is thinking and has thought.
But what are the three poisons in Buddhism?
Some people say it a different way.
Some people say delusion,
Attachment,
And aversion.
Ah.
What happened to attachment?
How come we don't talk about attachment?
We just did.
We are.
We do.
We do.
We do.
You and I do.
And that was my whole point.
The whole time we were working on that project was I was like,
You guys are finally acknowledging what in Buddha's principles as said is important.
It's a third of it.
It's a third of it.
It's a third,
Right?
So delusion,
We know that.
Cognitive delusion.
We're in a story about something.
Aversion,
We're running away from something uncomfortable,
Or attachment,
We're trying to control or hold on to something.
And those three things are the roots of all,
Back to your roots of all suffering,
Are the roots of all suffering in Buddhism,
But also in psychology,
The newer psychology.
Yeah.
Okay.
We didn't talk about AI,
But maybe we could talk about it next time you come.
That's actually a bit like to talk with you about.
Is artificial intelligence and therapy and what you're doing in that realm.
Okay,
Joseph Sorochi,
The author of What Makes You Stronger.
Fabulous book,
The author of many other books and especially some really great ones for folks that have teens and adolescents and interested in models of ACT for adolescents and then also the basically behind the scenes of all good things that are happening in process-based therapy.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Wise Effort podcast.
Wise Effort is about you taking your energy and putting it in places that matter most to you.
And when you do so,
You'll get to savor the good of your life along the way.
I would like to thank my team,
My partner in all things,
Including the producer of this podcast,
Craig,
Ashley Hyatt,
The podcast manager,
And thank you to Bangold at Bell and Branch for our music.
This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not meant to be a substitute for mental health.
