When Thoughts Feel Completely True | Sangha Q&A

Please note: this is a recording from a Live event.

In this Sangha Q&A, we explore why our thoughts can feel so completely true - even when they are passing patterns rather than reliable descriptions of who we are.

We look at how mindfulness helps us recognize when we’re caught in a story, how to meet difficult emotions through the body and with self-compassion, and why healing does not require us to make our suffering into an identity. The discussion also touches on grief, physical pain, no-self, and learning to feel what is here without feeding the story around it.

Transcript

This is why I find mindfulness is a helpful practice. Not that we can even make mindfulness happen, Right? It either happens or it doesn't happen. You didn't make mindfulness happen, But the conditions are that you've been coming to Dharma talks and you're meditating and then mindfulness arises and you recognize we're trying to get back to something or we're trying to control something. And then it's allow the feelings. Come into the body. Don't keep fueling the trying to get back to something or trying to control something, Right? Which are, I guess, Really probably the same thing, Controlling and trying to get back, Right? It's the. . . The fueling of a sense of a me that keeps that energy contracted and can get really painful. Really painful. I mean, We've all had those moments where it's so believable. We're so believing whatever story is playing out in our head of what I'm missing out on, And everyone else is living their perfect life, And I'm the only loser, And I'm the one that's unworthy. And it's like, Oh my God, It's so believable. And the contraction can feel so overwhelming. I mean, We can be on the floor in the bathroom in tears, Like immovable at that moment. And yet. . . It's just a thought pattern and habit that is implying there is something behind it. And that's what we're believing is that there is something behind it or something before it, That there is an independent, Solid me before it, Behind it, That it's implying it. There's not just the thoughts of being a loser, Of being unworthy, There is a me that is fixed and permanently a loser. And it's very, Very believable. And so with mindfulness, That's where we come in and we allow the feelings. Because it feels so overwhelming. And then we come in and we feel what's here. And the more that we feel and the more that we bring kindness, Right, That nurturing quality, Oh, It's okay to feel the fear, It's okay to feel the unworthiness, It's okay to feel the despair, It's okay to feel the doubt, Right? The more that we allow what's here to be here. And we do keep unpacking those emotions, Inquiring what else is here. And we allow what's here to be here, Breathing mindfully, Giving space for the feelings, For the energy, Not trying to clamp down even more, But giving it space. Eventually, It dissipates. And what remains is the openness that was always here. Or when we ask the question, Self-inquiry, To whom do those thoughts belong? To whom do those feelings belong? And maybe we do that at the very end of mindfulness, Right after we've gone through the whole process. RAIN acronym, Where there's a sense of them feeling more settled. And then to whom do those thoughts, Those feelings belong? Because there is a sense that there is an existent me behind it. And think about. What a dilemma that presents for us because none of us knows what our next thought is going to be. Not one person here knows what your next thought is going to be. And yet, Whatever that thought is, There's a belief. Oh, I am a loser. I forgot for a moment, Oh, I am. . . I am falling behind. Oh, My life isn't enough. Whatever thought and the thoughts that are appearing. Are very much like in the zeitgeist of our culture, Of our society, Right? Everyone's having these thoughts. Like we think we're the only ones. Everyone's having, I don't care if you're a CEO, I don't care if you're a. A pop star, A trillionaire, A billionaire. I guess there's just one trillionaire these days. Even if you're a trillionaire. It doesn't matter. Our society and this sense of separateness that we've really been conditioned to foster, Quite frankly, Right? When we all had that sense of self-consciousness that started to arise when we were maybe two or three years old, Right? No one pulled us aside and said, Oh, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey. Let's look at that for a moment. That sense of self that you're perceiving yourself to be is not solid and independent. Feel it, Feel the feelings. Breathe, Let it move through. Oh, Yeah. Right? No one pulls us aside and tells us that. In fact, If anything, It's just everyone's doing it kind of in their own little silo. And everything in the media is. . . Fueling it, Reinforcing it. Every storyline, Every movie is reinforcing it. And so we're all believing, Yes, We're all these little separate independent cells over here. But none of us did this. Ourselves, None of us, No one would have asked for this. But it is part of kind of these thoughts are all in the zeitgeist. They're all kind of in the, You know, Born of our culture. Born of the sense of separateness, Kind of, I don't know, It's the chicken and the egg a little bit here. And so whatever thought it is that's arising, We didn't ask for it. We didn't know it was coming. And yet we believe there is a me behind that thought. We so believe. That there is a solid, Independent, Permanent, Existing separate me behind that thought. And that thought can have a lot of power. To ruin our day. To ruin. Are weak to ruin our lives. Everything can be fine in our lives. We. . . We have enough food in the fridge. We have some money in the bank. We have a. . . Maybe a small income that's coming in enough. We have enough. So many of us have enough. Enough! And yet, It just takes one little thought to start to spin us out and to start to feel unsafe again, To start to feel insecure again, To start to feel that we are lacking in some way. And I'll tell you what, The trillionaire feels it too. The billionaires feel it too. Because it's never enough. It's never enough. You can be sitting at home perfectly safe, Perfectly fine. Maybe it's just you got back from seeing some friends earlier in the day and you had a nice time with the friends. It's lovely, But then you're back and there's not much going on the rest of the day and everything's fine. But then all of a sudden, This kind of thought pops up. You didn't ask for it. You didn't know it was coming. But all of a sudden, It pops up and goes, I think there's something wrong with your life. I think you're missing out on something. And we go, Oh, I must be, I didn't know a moment ago what a loser I was. But I am, Because the thought just came up and reminded me of that. And I believe that. And yet it is, There is nothing behind the thought. The thought wasn't yours. Everyone's having the same thoughts. And yet every time we take it to be real and True. And that there is a problem to be solved, Right? That we get lost in the story that, Yes, OK, I'm a loser. I'm missing out. I've made wrong decisions. How can I fix this? So we're using the same system that's the thinking of me that's thinking, That's lacking, To try and fix this system. You can't fix it. It's a thought-created me. We're looking for a thought-created solution to the thought-created me that will maybe find a moment of relief. Before it goes, But hang on, Let's go over that again. And then we just keep, We're kind of in the hamster wheel, Just. Just spinning through the hamster wheel, Trying to get somewhere. And missing where we are. Missing what's happening now. Because that's all that's here is what's happening now. They're not your thoughts. If you had a choice, You wouldn't choose most of the thoughts that are arising each day. If it was a little a la carte menu that came to you each day, And it says you can have happy thoughts, You can have thoughts of kindness, Thoughts of compassion, Creative thoughts, You could have altruistic thoughts, Or you could have unworthy thoughts, You can have hateful thoughts, You can have angry thoughts, You can have lacking thoughts. We would all choose the nice thoughts, But that's not what comes. It's all these thoughts that always, Because the separate self exists as a problem. I'm never where I'm supposed to be. I have to be somewhere else. It can't arise in presence. Technically it is, Because all there is is presence. But it can arise accepting what is, Being OK with what is. It can only arise in relationship to something. I shouldn't have done that back there. And now let me extrapolate that out to what it's going to mean in the future. And I should really be over there. And it never allows us to be here. Be with the highs and the lows. Of a human existence. Some moments are a little more exciting than others. Some are a little more duller than others. Mostly it's a lot of mundane moments in between. Sometimes we have some difficulties, Some pain, Or a challenge with someone. But it's just this kind of, Everything's just arising and passing. In openness. There's no clinging to, Oh, This was so good, I need it to stay, Because nothing can last. Nothing can be held on to. Nothing here can be held on to. It's just. Emptiness, Right? Nothing appearing as everything. There's nothing that we can hold on to. Yeah, Like. . . We have these amazingly good conditions and we just can't appreciate it. Someone had this quote. And I'm going to paraphrase it, Something like, Humans are the only animals that the more you feed them, The hungrier they get. The lion would eventually stop eating. Even my dogs, And one of my dogs, You would think she'd never stop eating. Even she eventually will stop eating. When she's had enough. But the more that we get, The more that we want, Because it's not based on what's here right now. It's not based on a sense of everything's okay in this moment with what's happening. It's based on this idea of a me and the me is always lacking. Is always lacking. It always needs to be somewhere else, It needs to fix something, It needs to get somewhere. It can't, Its existence is. . . It's just always in relationship to a problem that needs solving, And that's what we give all of our attention to. And because we've given so much of our attention to it over our lifetime, We've taken it to be as a real As us, We've really taken it to be our identification as who we are, And yet it's caused nothing but dissatisfaction, Restlessness, Suffering. Caused nothing but pain. And yet we keep giving it our attention. Maybe the next thing. Maybe if I can hold on to the next moment. Maybe if I could just go on the right holiday, Maybe if I could just live in the right place, Maybe if I could just lose that extra five pounds. You'll do it, And then it'll say, You'll move the carrot. Okay, Now this, Now this, Now this, And we're just in the hamster wheel. We're just in the hamster wheel. And yeah, Abigail, It is, It's like glue. Quicksand. Yeah, Quicksand's a good one too because the more you fight quicksand, Right, The more quickly I think you go down. And the more we fight what's happening, Right, The more that we fight the contraction arising after the openness. The tighter the contraction becomes. Yeah. In fact, The quicksand is a really good analogy for it. Yeah. And the fist, Thanks, Alessia. I don't know the Chinese finger trap, But it doesn't sound good. Yeah. Yeah, Or trying to fight the riptides. Yeah, You can. I mean, It's just we're constantly thinking that effort and force is going to give us what we want. And that's not to say that there aren't certain things that require digging a hole, I don't know. Doing the laundries, I'm trying to think of things that actually need some kind of physical manipulation. But even in those things, Even in something we're doing physically, The more effort we apply to it, Definitely with the mental effort, Or the more we even resist, Oh, I shouldn't have to do this, This is so painful, The harder we make it. The harder we make things. There's a story that Ajahn Brahm, He's this English monk that lives in Australia, And he tells the story of when he was in Thailand and he was a young monk under Ajahn Chah. Some of you may have heard of that name before. He's quite popular in the West. And so Ajahn Brahm was a young novice at the monastery. And they were doing a lot of work. The monastery was really growing. A lot of Westerners were really coming. I think this was maybe in the 70s, The 80s. And Ajahn Chah was going away to do some speaking engagements. He would often travel around the country. And before he left, He told Ajahn Brahm and a couple of the other monks that there was this big pile of dirt. And he's like, I want you to move that big pile of dirt and move it on the other side of this building because we're going to use that when we get back. So all day long, The monks, They have this, The three of them, They have their wheelbarrows and they're filling the wheelbarrows and carrying the dirt to the other side and they dump the dirt. Go back, Get another wheelbarrow full of dirt, Dump it on the other side, And no problem. They're not bothered, Not disturbed at all. This is what they were told to do, And they're doing it. And. And then the next day, The monk that was kind of in charge when Ajahn Chah was away, He pulls Ajahn Brahm aside and the other monks, And he's like, Why did you guys move the dirt over there? Before Ajahn Chah left, He said he changed his mind not to move the dirt. So move it back. And now they're starting to get a little irritated, Aujembrande particularly starting to get a little irritated. So now, Doing the same thing he was doing the day before, Without effort, Without struggle, Without suffering. Fill in the wheelbarrow with dirt, Takes it to the other side, Dumps it back, Right? Eventually get to the end of the day, The dirt's all moved back to where it originally was. And then a few days later, Ajahn Chah comes back. And he pulls Ajahn Brahm and the monks aside and he said, Why didn't you move the dirt? I told you to move the dirt over there. Why is it still over here? Go move it now. So now at this point, Ajahn Brahm is just furious. He's just losing his mind. And one of the senior monks that's with him, He can see just how worked up, How angry Ajahn Brahm is getting in his head. What kind of monstery is this? I came here to become enlightened, And I'm just moving dirt back and forth, And why can't these monks make up their mind? This is so disorganized, And I don't even know what we're doing. And so the senior monk pulls him aside, And he's like, You were doing the same thing. A couple of days ago, And there wasn't a problem in the world. And then you were doing the same thing when we moved the dirt back. And it was starting to become a problem. And look now, We're doing the very same thing you were doing the first day. And look at how much you were fighting it. Look at how much you are suffering right now. And it was in that moment that Ajahn Brahm saw. The story of a me. That was a victim. Now, Right? I'm a victim of the disorganization of these other monks, Of the—I'm not getting what I want. I'm being taken advantage of. This isn't what I signed up for. " The story, He believed so much that this was actually true. That there was a me that was suffering in there. And making each wheelbarrow 20 pounds heavier, That in that moment it fell away. The contraction, The contracted energy of a me that's having a problem, Because it's always got to be in relationship to some problem that needs solving. Fell away. And there was openness. Gets the wheelbarrow, Gets the next bit of dirt, Dumps it back over, And all of a sudden there's no problem. All the effort and the striving and the. The. Force that he was putting into in the kind of trying to control the situation. It fell away. And of course, This is what Ajahn Chah and the senior monk had devised, This little ruse to get them to see, Because it was kind of in these ways that they would Help the monks. Really see how easy you can get, How easily. We can get lost in this sense of a separate me believing it's true. Even kind of saying to ourselves, I'm here to get enlightened. How dare they do this? Think about the irony of that. And yet to have it so starkly in their face to see, Like, Oh my God. Yeah. It's just these thought patterns were arising. I believe there was a me behind it. And it fell away. Took no time at all in that realization. In the recognition that there is no. There, There is no independent separate self. It is non-existent. It's an activity. Of thinking, And you're not even the one programming the thoughts. But that identification is so strong. And we somehow believe that the more effort that we put in, The more that we try and hold back the contraction, The more that we try and grasp at the opening, At the awakening, That we're actually doing something. It's just the same activity. It's just the same. Totally the same. And yeah, Abigail, It is something we do tend to notice more as we're older. Yeah, But. . . We've been creating our own suffering. We always want to blame everyone else for what's happened to us. And I'm not saying that some of us haven't had some difficult conditions. We have. And there is a place and a time to work that stuff out. That's where therapy can be particularly helpful to kind of work these things out. But there is a point to where you even get to with the therapy where you say, You know, This just doesn't even matter anymore. You've talked it out, And you've realized, Like, Yep, It all happened. But. . . You know, What's happened in the past is over. But we can see, Yeah, That how much suffering we've created. Because of a belief in a separate, Independent me. There's no way. You can't feel joy. As a separate independent me. You can't feel free. You can't feel open as a separate, Independent me. That's not its nature. Yeah, Philippa, That's another one. Yeah, Marpa instructing. Is it Mila or Milarepa to construct the towers and then pull them down repeatedly? Or Mila, So yeah, You know, There's often. . . You know, Even in Tibetan Buddhism, There's these, You know, They'll do these beautiful sand mandalas, Beautiful colors, And monks will spend days, You know, Working 16 hours a day, Kind of just hovering over this, You know, Fairly large, Usually it's a pretty large table, It could maybe be six feet by six feet, Something like that, Creating these beautiful sand mandalas. And then at the end, Just put it all into a little baggie. Just kind of, That it's not the, You know, We would look at that and go, Oh my God, What have you done? You created this beautiful thing and now it's just gone away. But it's also showing. That it was the joy of doing what it was that you were doing or the Or that what you were doing was at the very least not looking for a result to get anything out of it. I mean, Think about how many activities we do. To get something out of it, Right? Just even our meals. Can I get out of this meal? Can I get some happiness out of this meal? And then McDonald's says, We have the happy meal, Right? And we're like, Oh, Go get the happy meal, Right? How long do you feel happy for? Temporary, Very temporary. But the separate self is always looking to get something out of something, Right? There's always a result. So Janine, You're saying that you find that you can breeze through responsibilities until someone comments something like you're doing too much, And actually your body is telling you when you're doing too much, Leave the thoughts to someone else. Yeah, And people will have their interpretations of things as well. And it's good to just acknowledge when someone else has that, Like they say you're doing too much, Like, Oh, Maybe. Let me see. My body feels like it can go a little further. Because that's a place, It doesn't sound like it's happening with you, But that is a place where a lot of people can push back. Don't tell me I'm doing too much, Don't tell me this, Right? Like that we're so quick to wanna push back on something, On what someone says. And people are gonna always have their comments, They're gonna wanna, You know. Say what they're gonna say. So are we at times, Right? But we don't have to take everything. You know, It's just, Oh, That was there. That was their suggestion. Oh, Maybe I am doing too much. Thanks, Let me just see how that sits for a bit. Right, So just also to keep that sense of openness if we can. Oh, You were shortening the name, Philippe. OK. And Amy, I do think that's a great point, By the way, Because we can really get stuck in the healing as well. I think we tend to overstay as a culture in the healing. It becomes another identity for us of what we're healing from and the story of me that had all these things happen to us. And it can become a very strong identification. And I do think there's a, Just. Like there is with everything right there's balance there's an appropriate space and a place for healing and then there's a then there's a place to say okay Yeah, What's next? Or just not even what's next, But what's happening? What's happening right now? Or we'll see, Let's see. Because I think there is a lot of. . . Grasping. At healing and a lot of almost like reinforcement that people are getting these days from you know, From their traumas, You know. Yeah, There's almost like. . . It's almost like being lauded in some way. And we definitely don't want to do the other thing. We don't want people to feel unsafe that they can't say anything or they can't share. But there's a balance. There's a balance. With it, And we do have to be very careful about getting stuck in the identity of someone who's healing, Because then we're always gonna hang on to what someone did, And then it's the way we see the world in this moment, Too, As a victim. And what else is happening to me today where I'm a victim? Who else is talking to me the wrong way or doing something that I don't like, Treating me badly? And it just, A lot of people are stuck in that. There's a lot of getting stuck in that. Yeah, Todd, Yeah. Yeah, So Alice, Oh sorry, Neil, What were you saying? Yes, Neil, The present moment is very generous, Very generous. It's very spacious. There's all the possibilities and the potential. There's openness. Like, This is what we want. But then we go up. What was that thought that just arose about me? Oh, Should I not have said that? Oh, Did I do that? What am I going to do later? Right? And then we just give our attention back there. So noticing, Again, Always that contraction, That contraction of energy is really strong, Really strong. That's our clue. Yeah. Okay, I want to go to your. . . Thank you for your comment, Alice. Yeah, So you're saying, So your son's truck's brake fluid line broke 60 miles from home, And you just increased your towing from 7 to your AAA to 7 to 100 miles. Good girl. Good timing. And you felt the gratitude for that, And then you felt the fear and anxiety and uncertainty that arose until you were home three and a half hours later. And absolutely, Because you're saying, I guess surrender doesn't mean we won't have feelings. Absolutely, It does not mean that. You know, But the surrender is even the recognizing, Oh, There's some fear, There's some anxiety here. Okay, Feel that, Right? You recognize it, You feel it. You open to it. You don't let the fear and the anxiety and the uncertainty rule you, Because it will in your head. But if you come in and you feel it and you just acknowledge, Like, Yeah, We do feel. We're not trying to turn into psychopaths. I mean, Psychopaths don't feel. That's not what we're trying to become. Or like Spock, Where we're just rational kind of. You know, Unhuman, Right? We, Humans mean we feel. And sometimes those feelings are helpful, Right? Sometimes there's something going on and that feeling can kind of alert us to it. And that's where mindfulness can be so helpful because it helps us to be discerning, Right? When we come in and we feel the fear, We feel the anxiety, The uncertainty, And we allow ourselves to be just with one at a time or kind of saying, Okay, Fear, It's okay, You're here. And breathing and feeling it, Right, Where you're opening to it instead of trying to clamp down on it. And you open to it, And you allow it to be here, And it moves through. Ah, What else is here? Oh, There's some anxiety. OK, Anxiety, You're here too. And you allow it to be here, And you feel it. And then, Oh, Some uncertainty, And you allow that to be here, Right? And as it moves through you, Then there's that sense, Because the separation is what's creating the fear and the anxiety when you're unsafe. Sorry. The separation is what's creating the sense of fear and anxiety, Even when you are safe. And so by coming in and feeling it, That sense of separation, That sense that, You know, The fear and the anxiety and allowing the feelings that moves through you, That then you can be very clear about, Okay, Is there something to do right now? Maybe we need to pull off more on the side of the road, Because you're on the side of the road, Right? We just want to call someone and have them on the line, Let them know what's going on, And we're going to check in with them again in 20 minutes or something. Then you can think, Like, Is there something to do? Or we can recognize, Nope, It was just that kind of fear of the unknown, Of the uncertainty was just kind of. Whipping itself up, But through mindfulness you're able to come in and feel it and you're able to be more discerning, Because maybe sometimes there is something to do. Maybe we're walking down a dark street, And there's someone on the other side of the road, And they look a little scary, And you fear very appropriate in that situation. Maybe it's late at night, And we can feel like a sense of, Oh, This may not be a good situation. You know, We want to be very alert to it. Maybe they're right behind us, And we think, I am going to cross the street, Right? But maybe the me goes, Oh, Don't do that. You're going to offend them. Let me feel it. Yep, There's fear. This isn't rational. I'm crossing the street. " Or you pull out your phone and you start calling someone and talking loudly. You're doing something. So sometimes there's something to do as well. I mean, This is really, Emotions are It can be very often. Helpful cues about our environment and something that needs to be going on, Or something that needs to happen. The problem for us is that it's almost never happening in our environment, What it is that we need to be concerned about. It's just happening in our head, Either in the past or the future. It's not happening now. It's never happening now. And 99 times out of 100, There is nothing. Two. There is nothing to do. Yeah, And it can be a little hard when there is something to do. So just as best you can, Breathe mindfully. Just taking a little bit bigger breath, Right? It's amazing if we're breathing in a very shallow way. We're lost in our thoughts and we're breathing in a very shallow way. That actually reinforces in our brain that something's wrong. Breathe deeply and allow what's here. It gives us, We can still be doing things. We can still be doing things. But without that heightened sense of, You know, Maybe it's kind of at a. . . Appropriate level for the situation. Yeah. Oh dude. Well, You can still be fully healed and join us at 6 a. M. But always nice to have your humor here. And yeah, Just what we were saying earlier, Philippe, I'll just echo your comment there. Too much healing can very much get us stuck in victimhood. Yeah, I do see a lot of that these days. It's amazing how much of that overlaps in the spiritual path. And because I know myself, When I first started on the spiritual path, There was a great deal of healing to do. There was a great deal. I mean, I had done therapy. I'd done all the New Age spirituality. I'd kind of tried everything, Done a lot of self-medicating. And as I started meditating and practicing Buddhism, There still was a lot of healing to do. There was, And I think a lot of that happens a lot in the West. So, But I think also the teachings are very, Can be very clear about not getting stuck in it. Whereas I did feel in the therapy there was a point, And it could have just been the therapist I was with, I felt like she just kept wanting to go over it again. I'm like, We can't keep going over this. I had to be the one to say, We can't keep going over this. This is too much. Like, I think they can also, Depending upon who your therapist is, They can also kind of keep us a little bit stuck in it. You And I feel that Buddhism does have the brakes on it for us, But as I've also said in the past, I think it's unfortunately getting very diluted in the West because of the self-help culture, Because of the, It's kind of what we're using Buddhism for is what I can get out of it, How I can reinforce the sense of separateness, And can I use it to reinforce my victimhood. We can use anything to reinforce the sense sense of self. And I do find that as we had talked about before I went away. That I feel as though as Buddhism came to the West, The teaching on no separate self has gotten a bit lost. And it's very often being used to reinforce the cell. How can I be more productive? How can I be more at peace? How can I? Appear more calm, How can I be more mindful, How can I be a better meditator, Right? That's not what any of this is. It's not to be a better meditator. It's not to be peaceful. Be more mindful, Right? Because all that's becoming something. And the Buddha was very clear. And any tradition, I would think, That's worth its weight in salt. Would be really warning against any state of becoming. That this is not about becoming something, But the self will use anything, And spirituality, And Buddhism. It will just wrap itself up in that and go. Appearing as something, But there's so much suffering underneath of that. So, Yeah, It's— It's a bit of a conundrum, The way this is all being presented in the West. And I think it's good maybe just that we're careful of that, That we recognize that. I think that can be helpful. I found that to be very helpful here, At least. Yeah, Neil, Nice words to Amy, Nice words. Yeah, And Julie, Of course, There is the healing to break free from the victimhood, Yeah. Yeah, I just, As long as, I mean, I think if there's this awareness of not getting stuck in it, I think that alone can be very helpful. Yeah, So Felipe, You and I have so many similarities. Yeah, You got tired of going over the past trauma. I did too. I was like, Oh my God. There is just, I think there's just a reinforcing of it. And it's like, Yeah, You want to go over it a bit. I think there's a space for it. I think there is a space for it in healing. But there's also a point to where a good therapist says, OK, We've gone through this. We've gone through this. And they actually cut you off from repeating the story. Yeah, Thanks. Yeah, And you and I, Julie, Have exchanged some messages, Yeah. Yeah, And it's not to feel don't, You know, I'm not saying this for wherever anyone happens to be as far as where they are with healing or recovery or. Whatever it is that's going on in your life, It's not to say that there's anything wrong with any of that, Because whatever is happening is what's happening. But anything that we're starting to create an identity out of, We can just take. You know, Maybe just this, You know, Just. . . Whatever words here kind of help you maybe see a little bit more that there's been an identity that's starting to form out of it, And maybe that can help to soften it. And that can be the first step. And just sometimes having it pointed out, Because we do get so wrapped up in it, We don't know, We don't realize until it's pointed out. And then we go, Oh, Now we can see it so clearly. But when we're in it, We can't see it. It's very hard to see. So Bev. Oh, So yeah, You stopped listening to some events because of this victimhood and healing. You weren't growing at all, You've overcome a lot yourself, But spirituality has taken away your victimhood. Thank goodness, Yeah, Thank goodness, Yeah. It does. I mean, I have found, I mean, Again, Here, I found the same thing. I could see the pitfalls. There's always going to be pitfalls in everything, And sometimes falling in it, And then kind of getting back out again. And Tia, I'm going to come back to your comment in a minute, Because I agree, Though. That's a great point, Chad. The grieving, And this is a really important part because if we haven't fully processed it in the body, And it is one of the reasons why I'm constantly saying with mindfulness, It's coming in and feeling it in the body. Because if you're not able to feel it, You actually are still fearing it. It's not something you have dealt with. It's something that still has a hold over you. If you can't come in and feel what's here in the body, It still has a hold. Over you. Okay, T. Good to see you, T. Oh, So you're saying, Sorry, That you've been kind of in and out. And did you miss something about the healing processes like without working with a therapist? I do think working with a therapist is the appropriate place for healing. I think what I've found, And Philippa, It sounds like you have found the same thing, There was a point to where I felt we kept going over and over, And this was back in the 90s, And I know therapy has changed a lot in the last few decades, But there was a point to where I felt like I just couldn't keep going over it, And yet as I was practicing Buddhism and meditation and mindfulness, I felt that there was still some healing that had to happen, But I, I am. I did feel that spirituality was kind of finally the final solution. And I would say Buddhism was the final solution. It wasn't Buddhism, It's what Buddhism was pointing to. It's what I find all the great masters of any tradition, What they're pointing to. It's this mistake that we have seen ourselves as a separate, Solid, Independent self. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. The thought appears, And there's a belief that there's me behind the thought, But it doesn't exist. And so the thoughts lose their power. Over you, Over time. But if we're doing this, If we're coming to spirituality, And the teacher is emphasizing, And as is very much emphasized here, That there is no separate independent self, If you're doing that to avoid feeling what's happened. Doing it to avoid dealing with any traumas, It doesn't work. Because in fact, If you're avoiding feeling something, There's a belief, There's a belief that there's something here that can't handle it. So you're really just reinforcing it at the same time. So I feel there's a, There's a, You know, That the two paths can, In fact, Overlap very nicely, And kind of one can pick up where the other leaves off. Because, Of course, Also therapy is involved with healing the self. They're not going to say that there's no separate self. I mean, They would say, Feel the feelings, Notice they come and go, Right? But they're not usually, I don't think they're going to really utter the words, There is no separate self. But they're going to say, Notice how the feelings come and go, The thoughts come and go, Emotions come and go, Everything's changing, Right? But spirituality goes that next step, Or at least Buddhism does and says, No question what was behind those feelings. And to see, That's the pulling back of the curtain. It's the Wizard of Oz. You pull back and you're like, Oh my god. I thought you were this great Oz. Magical you know in control of everything and in this case you see it's all this little man pulling the levers but in our case when we pull it back Right, There can be, There's nothing there. Activity of thinking, That's it. Activity of feeling, That's it. A process. A process. No thing. No space thing. No space thing. And yet, That little no space thing has been. Ruling our lives. Ruling us? Affecting every decision, Every choice, Every action out of this sense of I'm lacking and I need something in order to feel whole and complete. It's simply. It's saying that we're lacking, And we believe it. It's saying that we've done too many bad things. We just can't let it go. Saying that we're somehow unworthy. And we believe it. Because the nature of the separate self is unworthiness, Is lack, Is separation. But every time we notice it, And come in and feel. And I do often say this, I say feeling first, Because I think too often people are trying to bypass the feeling part. But if you've been doing it long enough, You can just go straight to the self-inquiry and say, To whom do those feelings belong, To whom do those thoughts belong, Or if it's something that just doesn't have a lot of intensity to it. Because what you find when you look. It's just there's not anything there. That thing that's been controlling my life, It just isn't there. It wasn't, It never existed. It never existed. And what is, You know. . . It does keep us in this state. I mean, When you think about how many people, How many people in the world right now, Particularly in the West, Are on medications for anti-anxiety, Anti-depressants. Self-medicating, Microdosing, And I'm not saying anything wrong with any of these things, But what I am saying is the number of prescriptions have continued to increase. And the number of people that are self-medicating today, Whether it's alcohol, Binge drinking, Popping pills, Whatever it is, Has increased. And you would probably, If you were looking at this like a scientist, You'd go, OK, Something's not working here. Maybe we're trying. To fix this problem top down instead of bottoms up. Right? Because. I mean, Our whole culture reinforces the sense, I'm not enough. Those thoughts get into our head, And they keep repeating. And we hear the story, I'm not enough. And we believe it. And we believe it. No one pulled us aside at two or three years old and said, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Before this starts to get more out of control. Let's sit you down and teach you how to feel what's here, To recognize, To become more aware of what's happening. To see that there is nothing solid and independent behind this. No one pulled us aside. And in did just the opposite, Everything just let it continue. And so. . . We're kind of all in this soup of separateness. And it's like, Why is everyone having such similar symptoms when so many of us, Not everyone, But when so many of us actually are safe in this moment? We have food in the fridge, We have clothing, We have friends. We have support. Why is it that we don't feel that? Why do we not believe the conditions that we're in? And that's where, At least as far as here is concerned, A Buddhist path has kind of laid it out. Because the Buddha was sharing the nature of reality, To live in harmony with the nature of reality, To see what you're not. So that you let go of all of those unnecessary fears and anxieties and worries and unworthiness. Not to not feel, But to give us the skills to be able to be with what's difficult in a way that doesn't overwhelm us. Um. . . To feel the joy when it's arising in a way that doesn't overwhelm us and that we're not grasping at it, And to live more harmoniously in the world. And for me, At least, I feel that's a very bottoms-up approach because I think there's a lot of still the same beliefs about the way the world is and trying to, Maybe with medications, Trying to dampen things down, But the structure's still in place. The structure is still in place. And that's what these practices and the investigation is breaking down that structure that each of us is really seeing for ourselves. That it's not there. Oh, Bob. This is Bob in New York. Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for the loss of your pet. Yeah. Was it a dog or a cat, A name? Give us a little more here. And I do have some advice for that. I've lost a lot of pets. I've lost people. And I think this is, Again, Kepi, A cat called Kepi. I think loss. One of the challenges we have with loss. Is not feeling it, But instead making a story out of it. Making a story. I'll never find another pet like this one. They were the best. Why did this have to happen? Those are the stories that prevent us from feeling what's here, Right? We're still, I mean, We're still feeling, Right? And it's painful, Right, As I'm seeing in the messages, Like we all know, Right, Shayla, Like what you're saying, They are family. My three puppies, You know, Babies, They are family. They are my children, And I've lost many others along the way. But I know the difference between grieving and sadness, Which is appropriate when you lose. You know, When we lose a family member, It is appropriate to feel sad. It is appropriate to cry. It is appropriate to feel loss. That is an appropriate response. So when that wave of the remembering, Maybe it's waking up in the morning or you're walking back into the house, And those can often be really triggering moments. Open up to it. It's here. It's here. Open up to it. Feel the loss. Let the tears pour. You know, Let the heart quiver. Right? This is about letting it be expressed. But when the story starts arising, I'll never get over this. There'll be no one else like Kepi, Right? Or maybe you could say there'll be no one else like Kepi because there probably will be no one else like Kepi. In a way, When we say it like, Oh my God, I'll never find another cat like Keppy, When we put it in that sense of like despair, Of oh my God, What's gonna happen to me? Right? It's really what's important there is that, You know, What we do is that we kind of make it all about, You know, Oh, I'm not going to be okay. What does this loss mean for me? And not to take away from your question, Jane, Saying, But, You know. Are you okay? But in our heads, Where we're making this all about what does this mean for the future? How am I going to handle this in 10 minutes? How am I going to handle this in a week? But we're not even feeling it now. So as best you can, Bob, And you can use a little self-compassion as a nice way to say, Oh man, This is tough. Kind of give yourself a little pat on your forearm. Yeah, Man, This is tough. This hurts, This is sad. Yeah, That's all true, All true. And so the more that you can. Open to what's here, And use self-compassion as a way to help bring you into it. And even just to say to yourself, Like, Hey, Bob, You can feel this in this moment. You can feel this in this moment. You can bear almost anything. In this moment. But then the thought comes in, But what about the next moment? Let me breathe into that. There's a little fear here as well in the sadness and the grief. OK. Give a little room for the fear. It is about getting into the body, Connecting to the feelings so that the sadness is allowed to move through you. Right? And of course, You're feeling the sadness because you love Kepi. So in the sadness is your love. Is your care, Is your kindness, Is the memories that Kepi's been there for you at different times in your life because our pets really are there for us so much. So in that grief and that sadness and the pain are all those beautiful memories that you shared and all of that care that you shared and love that you shared. And it's really just trying to help us to open up to what's here. So I would use some self-compassion to help you come into what's here. It's so tough. You know, And we feel the feelings, Abigail, As long as they're here. As long as they're here. You know? Okay, And so if now you said you felt the sadness, And then anger, Not at Kepi, Of course, But now depression and listlessness is here. Okay, So let's open up. Allow yourself to feel. Whatever it is that's here. You're aware of what's here. Open up, Tell it, You've got my attentionlessness, Grief, Depression, You have my attention. As long as you need to be here. I will be here. It does end. The story is what tells us it's never-ending. The story keeps pulling it out. Sorry, So I'm answering to your question there, Abigail, Right? But the more that you can acknowledge what's here, The way it's moving through you, Like I said, There was sadness, And then there was anger at maybe how the situation happened. And now there's a feeling of depression and listlessness. Open up to what it is that you're feeling. Whatever you're feeling is not wrong. It's what's happening. And the kindest and most compassionate thing that you can do. Is to open up to what it is that you're feeling, To the heartache. As best you can, As best you can, Bob, To just, Like right now, Just take a couple big breaths with me. So you're kind of giving some space for all that energy, All that stock energy, All that grief. And you give it some space and you allow it to be here. And you say to yourself, Hey man, This is tough. It is tough. This hurts. It does hurt. But notice how the words of self-compassion are bringing you into what's here. They're not extrapolating this out into the future. They're not taking it into the past. They're not putting lipstick on it. It's getting you into what's here. And as you breathe and you feel what's here, Maybe after the 10th, 11th breath, And don't hyperventilate, Just some slow. It's not usually deep breaths, But just a little more expanded than a natural breath. Just to give some room. And as you breathe and you feel and you stay in the body. And then every now and then your attention comes out, And you notice that too, And you keep coming back in. And you stay with what's here. And you say to yourself, You can bear this in this moment. You can bear whatever it is that's happening in this moment. And it's just to take care of this moment. The story is that it will never end. That's the story. That's not what's happening. In this moment, There's a lot of heavy emotions. A lot of heavy feelings, And it's simply to be with what's here in this moment. And as you continue breathing, Creating space for all that energy that feels a little stuck, All those feelings that feel a little heavy. You might even say, Just like me, Millions of people lost their furry baby today. Or recently lost their furry baby because you're not alone. And sometimes it's helpful to remember that. That whatever we're experiencing is a normal human emotion. And that you're not alone. And so it's not taking any of this. Away. It's maybe taking some of the depth, Kind of bringing it back up a little bit. But it's allowing you to be with it. It's allowing you to be with it in a way that's not overwhelming. But that allows you to be with it. It's almost, You know, It's like right now you're sick. I mean, Sick in the sense like, Let's say you have a cold. If we have a cold, We kind of hunker down in bed and we have some broth and, You know, And then maybe you put on a movie a little later or something, Right? And you look after yourself. And that's really what you're doing right now, Is that you're looking after yourself. You know, It's. . . It's to help you open to what's here. To open to what's here. And I'm so sorry, Though. I'm so sorry, Bob, Because. . . It is painful. It is painful. And these are the parts of life we don't really like to go through. But your love for Kepi. Is in this paint. Your love for him is in this paint. So as Shaila's saying, In that sense, His form's not here. His form's not here. But His presences. So just as best you can to try and be with what's here. Feel what's here. Use self-compassion to help bring you into your experience. Do not try and rush it. You know what's going to go through you how it wants to go through you. And just to remember all these beautiful comments that have come from your sangha. All the love and the support because we do all know what it's like. Just as I know you would be there for someone else that's going through this, I know you'd be the one putting comments in there. So just being there as best you can with what's happening, As best you can with what's happening. A lot of patience for yourself, A lot of compassion, A lot of kindness, Taking it easy. Don't try and rush through it. Don't try and rush through it. And just know you're not alone. Okay, So all of us are just sending you a big hug, Bob. So feel this big hug from everyone. Okay. And you know as well, Bob, Because I've said this before, You can always reach out to me, Send me a message on IT, And I can send you back a message too, Because sometimes that can be helpful as well. OK, I'm going to go back and just try and do a couple other questions before we wrap up. I did want to get to Stephanie. I feel like we missed you last time. And your question just, It was just about there. And then I can only go back so much in the comments so will you put it in there because Daphne sometimes I feel like I miss your your stuff Yeah, And actually, Alice, I'm just going to mention that because I think it relates also just to what Bob's going through with, You know, You were told about your trauma that you'd push those feelings down because they were so painful. So naturally, They will be painful when you allow them to surface again. But now you feel them in small amounts that are manageable. Yeah, I think that can be really helpful. When we don't open to our feelings, They're not going away. They're not going away, And as you're seeing in Bob, And they'll just change, They'll just keep transforming. So as best you can also, I like what you're saying, That are manageable. You know, If you can even, And what's manageable. Really is just what we can feel in this moment. You know, And sometimes it'll be. You'll be a little bit more present with it and sometimes it'll get a little messy and, You know, We can't control that, But just as best you can to be with what's here, Bob. So T, Where you're saying maybe you haven't fully felt yet. But if there's not a separate me, What feelings are you looking to feel? You cry a lot, But is that feeling or is identifying what it's creating in the self where you find relief? I do want to keep a little, And this is where I have to, But I feel I should be a little bit measured and balanced in this. There are still a lot of people healing on this path. And I want to, While I am talking, Almost every Dharma talk, At least, Is really very much about there is no separate self and different ways of helping you to see that. You know, I wouldn't put that before the healing right now. In fact, I would never put it before the healing, Before the feeling. If you're crying, And I know that your situation is, You've got a lot of challenges right now that are going on, Don't, The separate self stuff, Just worry about it, Or not worry about it, But just put it to the side. And just feel. Just feel what's here. And when I say like, What are you looking to feel? The physical sensations that are in the body. Right, The physical sensations, The tension, The tightness, The gripping, The dullness, The sharpness, The butterflies, The you know, That contraction that's kind of pulling us all in at the center, Like feel what's here in the body. So the emotions, The emotions are really a thought or a story plus the feeling, Right? And so when we come in and feel, The story is gone, But the physical sensations are still here. And yet, We can still label that fear or sadness or grief, Right? We can say it in a way like to acknowledge the emotion without the story so that we're just in it with the feelings, That we're just here with it in the feelings. And the feelings will move around. They'll move around. Like what you notice, The more that you breathe and feel, And Bob, This is for you too. The more that you feel what's here, The more that you open because the feelings have a way of kind of. Fueling the story, Right? Actually, The feelings become part of the story. It gives it more animation. So the more that we can come in and feel, And then we start to notice what's here. Yeah, There is maybe a pressure on the chest area, A heaviness. Oh, Yeah, There feels like a weight that's there. Yeah, Like a 10-pound weight. Okay, Now you're coming more into what's actually happening, Right? And you breathe and you feel it. And as you stay with it, Maybe you go a little bit, You move a little bit lower, And what else is there? Feel a little tingly sensation or you feel you know, That kind of energy of like, Oh, It wants to come out, The tears want to come out. Oh, Okay, That's what wants to come out. And there's just opening to let it come out. But what we're doing is coming in to feel the physical sensations. And it's really. . . We're so disembodied from our feelings. Again, And I'm going to say as a culture, We're so disembodied. Like, It feels so foreign to us. How do I feel? I don't know what to feel, Right? And yet, You know, Put your hand on your chest right now. You can feel the sensation of your fingers there, And now just go a little bit lower. What is it that I'm feeling in the chest? What are the sensations that are there? And that's where we're anchoring our attention. In the feelings, But bringing in the nurturing, The self-compassion that really says, Hey, It's okay to feel this. It's okay to feel sadness. Like even just saying that to ourselves, It's okay to feel this like, There's this sense of ah. Oh! Because I thought it wasn't okay. I thought I would topple over. If I felt what was here. But in fact, The pushing it down is causing me to topple over. The coming into what's here Well, It's not pleasant. But it's what's happening. I actually find even in that, Just even that little bit of spaciousness. To bear what's happening in this moment. Just what's happening in this moment. And the habit is going to want to go back and go, Ah, But the next moment, And oh, There it is. No judgment, No beating ourselves up. It's just the habit. It's just this moment. Can I bear this in this moment? Can I stay with what's happening in this moment? Or even, In fact, More encouraging would be, You can bear this in this moment. Self-compassion is much more effective in the second and third person, Much more effective. You can bear this in this moment. Okay, Meredith, One more breath. Can you breathe? Okay, Meredith, One more breath. Okay, T, One more breath. And then one breath becomes another breath becomes another breath, And all of a sudden you realize, I'm here with what's happening. I'm not fighting my experience. It's moving through me. It's not pleasant. But it's not unbearable. And I can actually see the movement of it. And it will move through on its own. Not because we're pushing it along, Not because we're doing self-compassion and saying, Now go. We're opening up to what's here. Because in your tears, In your fear, In your sadness. Is also compassion. And wisdom. And empathy for yourself, And kindness for yourself, And care for yourself. It's not one thing. So what we see when we see emptiness is arising is crying, Is sadness. It's not just one thing. There's many things in there, But we tend to see it as just one thing, And we label it as one thing. And what we tend to label it, T-N-B-O-B, Is that this is bad. This is bad. It's not bad. Our emotions are not bad. They're not something to be judged, To be punitive about. It's to allow ourselves to be with what's here, Whatever it is. And yeah, And Alice, As you're saying to T, And as you're saying to, It can feel exhausting. It can feel exhausting. It can, And some professional help with that can be super helpful, And it's good to recognize when we do need professional help. Just to help us move through it. And I agree, Like allosomatic therapy coming into the body. And just doing your best. And Susie is the same for navigating body aches as well. Like we come in and we feel it because even in body aches, We tend to contract around that. Oh, I shouldn't, My back shouldn't feel like this. My foot shouldn't feel like this. We tend to get more tense around it, Making it worse. And definitely the story making it worse then. So coming in and feeling. And even noticing, And I notice with my back, I can have a bad back. And when I noticed those sensations, Like you just really coming in as best you can, Like What is it? Is it sharp? Is it dull? Is it a thick band across my back? Is it. . . Vertical, Is it horizontal? Is it round? Is it sharp? Is it dull? Is it throbbing? Is it static? Right, Really trying to come in into, Because you kind of get down to the actual sensations, And while they're still unpleasant, They are unpleasant. It is the story that this is happening to me, And it will never stop happening, Is that that creates the suffering. And of course, Also like, You know. I'll take a Tylenol, I'll put my heating pad on my back. Of course, Doing what we can do as well, Do some stretching. But being mindful of the story of it, Because the story does not help, That's really, Pain is inevitable, Suffering is optional. Suffering is the story. Suffering is the story. And the story is saying it's never going to end, And it tightens even more around it, Just tightens even more. So the more we can really come into it, Almost like at an atom level, Or cell by cell, Let's say level, And really exploring the sensations. Again, You're starting to see there's a little bit of movement. A little bit of movement happening. And it's like, Oh, OK. And what you even notice, And I noticed this as well with my back pain, Is that, And it's not constant, And I do stuff every day, I do what I can to try and prevent anything from feeling unpleasant. I mean, I definitely work out and go swimming and try and do things, But there's just something, My back is a little bit weak in the lower back. And the more that my attention is actually in the sensations, I notice that it's not actually constant. There's an intensity, And then it backs off. And then there's an intensity, And then it backs off. And those back offs are everything when we're feeling pain. But we usually don't notice when it's backed off a little bit because we're so locked into the story. So it can really help. Okay, I think. Someone had something really funny. Was it Neil or Toby or something about his name on the building? I can't find it now. It was funny, I was going to comment on it. I think because it is two o'clock here, I am going to bring us to an end here. But thank you for all the great comments in here, The support for Bob and for T and both of you. Please know that we're thinking of you. I think one of the most important things, You guys have heard me say this so many times, But it really is true. Facing challenges in life when we're facing loss in our lives. It's really to the support of others to remember we're not alone can mean everything. It can really mean everything. And. And so, Yeah, So I think you're, You know, Just coming on alive at Sangha, Knowing you've got support here. T, I know you reach out to me offline, And Bob, You know, I always offer that. I'm totally fine to help in any way. Don't feel I don't charge for anything like that, So don't worry. But, You know, Sometimes when we're hearing these talks, Or even in the questions and the comments, And it can, You know, We can relate, But there's this sense of like, Oh, But maybe my situation's a little bit different. And sometimes it's nice to just kind of hear. You know, Just to have someone, Just to be able to say like, Well, This is my situation. Isn't this somehow different, You know, From the teachings and the practices? And it can be helpful to kind of say, No, Let's see how this, Let's see how this can look and where you might be holding on that's maybe causing some additional suffering. And, And just, You know, Those, Those little pointers can really be so helpful. And just like, Oh yeah, I just like we have blind spots and when we're in our own suffering, It's really hard to see. It's just really hard to see a lot of the time what's going on. So sometimes just having it pointed out. So don't ever hesitate. You guys can send me a message as well on IT. And you know, I'm just always happy to help. So just to know that. Okay. Yeah, Okay. Thank you all so much, And I'll see you next Sunday. Thanks.