The Boat Of Logic (What Is Now? Podcast)

Is the thinking mind your master or your tool? Each of these sessions begins with one minute of silence followed by an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment and finishes with a short guided meditation based on the themes of the session. We hope you enjoy it!

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

What was your experience?

It's kind of amazing how much it seems like can happen in that space.

It was just the thought that came up at the very end of that time.

Also,

The timer was on my side this time,

And it felt really long to me.

And I opened my eyes at the end of it,

And there were seven seconds left of the timer.

And that's when I had that thought,

Because it was like,

Wow,

There's quite a bit that can happen in that space.

And this was a little bit different for me,

And I wonder if this ever happens for you.

I had a line that popped into my mind,

And then I guess there's a variety of ways that you could interact with something like that.

Like notice it,

Try to attempt to drop it in some way or come back to a physical sensation.

But I decided for whatever reason to just stay with it and repeat it and sit with it.

Almost like a koan sort of thing where you have some sort of thing to sit with and either feel or contemplate or whatever.

And so there was a line that came up for me at a certain point in it.

And I actually think it was,

Now that I'm,

I like doing this too,

Tracing your experience back to the sort of origin point.

So I think initially I was thinking about what we were talking about before we started recording,

Was Sakib and I were talking about writing a book.

Both of us are in the process of this at different stages.

And Sakib,

You mentioned this,

Like the thing I think that we're both developing is an ability to just be in so many different ways.

And in our work and maybe in our lives or the people that we work with individually attempting to help them also just be and be open to receive the answers that are available now in this moment.

If you can only get out of the way and stop thinking,

Stop planning.

And you were talking about how that applies to writing your book and maybe feeling almost a little bit imbalanced on the side of just being and potentially neglecting the rational thinking mind and that there might be more of a sort of middle path of thinking and just allowing.

And so I think I was in my mind and then I remembered something,

This is kind of a long-winded explanation of my experience.

I was reminded of a line that I read yesterday in this book that I'm reading that really stuck with me and just I found it interesting.

I don't know necessarily what it means to me yet,

But it said,

Love is knowing when to be patient and when to act.

And so that popped up.

It felt very related to that notion of like maybe basically doing and being.

And then I just sat with that phrase.

Love is knowing when to be patient and when to act,

Which it seems to me is like just maybe a really core challenging thing for people at large.

The knowing of when to let go and when to act.

So that's a lot of explanation of what happened for me in that period of silence.

What do you think about all that?

No,

Wonderful.

I think what comes to my mind is,

As you were speaking about this,

A quote by Einstein,

And I'm not sure if it is by Einstein or not.

I think there is also a controversy around that whether this quote was by Einstein or not.

And I don't remember the exact quote,

But it was something like,

You know,

We have we have like the mind is like a faithful servant and the intuition is like is like a master.

And however,

We have like as a society,

We have forgotten that,

You know,

We have made the mind the master.

But it is like a servant and our intuition is like a master.

So then that brings me to the question like this interaction,

I think it becomes more of an interaction between the intuition and what you are talking about the state of being and that state of mind,

Which is rationality that,

You know,

It forms this question in my mind.

Okay,

How can this interaction be between that?

So,

So when like,

What we are doing in this session today,

What is now is more of being but I'm sure,

You know,

And I think a lot of it is coming out of intuition,

But I'm sure that there are many aspects of our conversation that are also coming from the mind.

So,

The question arises,

And I would,

I would love to know your perspective on that,

That what do you think is a healthy balance or a healthy interaction between intuition and the mind?

It seems to be a very kind of essential question.

And,

Like,

As we're interacting now as you were saying,

It feels to me like we're going,

It's just a wavelength that we're bouncing back and forth between just being,

Like what does that even mean?

Does that mean that you're doing nothing and that even when you're doing nothing something is happening?

And in that happening,

Am I doing or am I being but let's say we're both sort of entering a space of being.

And then by me talking now,

I have sort of shifted into,

At least in a way that like,

Thinking mind because I'm having to think to formulate thoughts and send them over to you,

But I'm still somehow in what feels to me like a pretty organic,

Pure space where I don't get to be in the space of being.

I'm in a pure space where I don't feel so much like I'm creating what's happening right now,

But I'm just sort of translating it to you.

And so,

I guess in that way I'm feeling like the thinking mind is the servant,

In a way.

Like they're functioning,

They're doing their job,

But they're in the role of,

They're not the one in charge,

But they're part of it.

And they're needed in order to,

Maybe,

In order to like communicate and do things and act in the world.

But they're sort of the vessel for this larger thing,

Which is the creator of whatever it is that I'm saying right now.

And somehow I have access to both at the same time.

I don't know what,

How does that sound to you?

Yeah,

I think this is what even I feel like that in these conversations,

It's the mind is just like becomes like a filter or something,

You know,

That there is a message.

And I think we were talking about,

We have talked about this previously that how it is about the language that whatever we feel like saying in this moment,

It is coming from a place of no language.

Maybe no thought.

But then there is this filter,

You know,

The brain or,

You know,

The mind,

However you want to see it,

Which is putting words to it,

What we what we are feeling,

You know,

Which is putting language and thought and rationality to it,

And then it is coming out of our mouth.

So,

Yeah,

It seems like like that kind of an interaction to me.

But then also another question arises is,

Okay,

If this is what is using our intuition or state of being and just being in the now and saying things,

Then what is rationality?

What is something which is not this?

What is that state in which we are not actually speaking from our intuition?

So I don't know what you think about this,

What comes to my mind is maybe let's say,

I would say that if there is an evaluation of what we want to say,

You know,

Let's say,

Okay,

That there are these two thoughts in my mind.

One is,

Okay,

Do I speak?

Do I speak about,

You know,

Topic A or do I speak about topic B?

So when I'm kind of evaluating now,

What I feel is I have made my mind the master,

Not my intuition.

And then I'm kind of evaluating that and maybe I feel okay,

Maybe topic B is more relevant to our conversation.

So let's speak about topic B.

But if I'm not using,

Like,

If I'm not,

If my mind is not the master,

Then how it could be that if topic A is arising,

I will not evaluate whether I should speak,

I will just speak it out.

It's really interesting.

So it feels like maybe where the logical mind or the thinking mind is coming in is there's like more space between that pure thing and the action itself.

Like there's sort of the,

You're in touch with whatever that pureness is.

And there may be an action that's sort of immediately connected to that.

It's like the filter.

And it comes out of it just straight away.

Or there's like the separate machinery that's been created where before it comes out,

It stops and it's redirected to this other sort of mechanism where there's a couple different steps involved.

And I think that let's put it through this algorithm first and let's put all of our options on the table before we express this thought.

And there's like a slow down process.

And I guess one thing about that that I'm thinking of is maybe there's a bit more protection involved,

Like that sort of machinery has been established in order to protect me in some way from expressing it in a more pure fashion,

Where it goes through these levels of self conscious awareness,

Where maybe those are connected to past experiences or things like that,

Almost like you know,

Remember when you did that thing.

You don't want to say it like that,

Even though you might not,

I mean you're likely not processing all of that.

The mind is so powerful.

It's doing it very quickly.

Maybe it's related to,

Well,

You don't want to say it like that because remember this thing that happened and that thing and this whole story of you and that's going to make him think.

And by that point you're so far removed from the essence of like pureness that could be expressed if you just trusted it right away and let it come out.

I like that vision.

As you were speaking,

I had this vision of colors of,

So you said the filter.

And so there's like this stuff that maybe is many different colors or it's a particular color and I'm a filter,

You're a filter,

Everyone,

The person listening to this is a filter,

We're all filters in our different ways.

Then it sort of goes through us,

And it could come out in a form that is still like almost the same but very sort of pure form.

It could come out in this very different form,

Or like a very dulled form.

I was thinking of,

For whatever reason for me it was this vivid sort of purple color.

And then when it goes through all the filters of the thinking mind it became this very kind of brownish dull color.

Or like paper,

Essentially,

It kind of came out like printed paper or something like that.

Yeah,

How I can see that is,

Like,

For me it is the intuition is like the rainbow,

Having all the seven colors but when it goes through the filter.

It is like just maybe one or two pillars that are coming out,

Rest are being filtered.

Yeah,

I like that.

It's like it takes something that had access to the whole rainbow and turned it into just one.

And I think we are doing that almost,

As you correctly said that it is so quick,

And you know,

Unconsciously we are doing it almost all the time.

Because now I can sense that okay,

When I feel like in this moment I'm speaking from my soul,

You know,

From my intuition that is just very pure.

But there is some sort of filtering there because,

You know,

I'm my unconscious mind or whatever that is,

You know,

It's also telling me that you cannot speak something that is blasphemous and that is not okay for the audience here.

That is always that filtering.

So I believe we are in that somehow,

You know,

We are in that spectrum of what we can say and cannot say.

Because if it is like just totally being open then there will be a lot of things that will be coming out that you know,

That might come out and that might not be suitable for this conversation.

I can give you an immediate example of that,

That just happened for me as I was describing my experience of colors.

Because as soon as I talk,

Because in my mind I saw these,

The colors of this stuff,

This like pureness that's being expressed.

And then very quickly my thinking mind sort of comes in it's like,

Make sure you don't talk about colors in any way that might offend someone.

Like if you're,

You might be expressing some bias for a particular color and then talk about,

Because you're sort of creating this evaluation in some way of the pure color being good and the thinking mind color being worse or dull,

Like I said,

And I use a color that was brown.

And who knows what that color might mean to someone,

Like the color of skin for example like yours could potentially be called something along those lines.

And then I quickly sort of noticed that I'm like,

Well,

It's,

You know,

It's like white paper,

Like,

You know,

Something like that.

And I noticed that that's my kind of thinking mind coming in and trying to check the pure expression of this stuff for fear of how it might impact somebody and maybe that's coming out of self protection,

Ultimately,

Or it's coming out of potentially protection of someone else.

So what do you think about that of my immediate experience and maybe how it applies to you,

Potentially?

Yeah,

It does.

It does because,

Yeah,

I feel that there is,

There are many,

Many factors that are coming into play here.

One is self protection,

As you said,

Then,

You know,

There is this idea,

This,

I don't know if you call it fear of like,

Or fear or what do you call it?

And just being,

You know,

Careful of what you want to say so that you don't hurt the audience.

So I think this is this is this constant evaluation that is going on and it is so amazing that you know,

We don't consciously know it when we do it.

You know,

It's,

It's so it's like has become a so efficient mechanism that you know,

We might have like this in entire conversation for one hour and one and a half hour.

But although there might be many things coming up that we might want to speak about,

But that automatic filtering,

It's so efficient that for this entire conversation,

We will not let that out,

You know,

From our mouth.

I'm just I'm just amazed at the efficiency of this process,

You know,

And this I think applies to our daily life that how we unconsciously are filtering out so many things and it's such an efficient process that we always know what to speak,

You know,

In front of home and what not to speak,

How to act,

Not only speak but to act.

Basically carry this and you know,

Then this idea of entire persona comes in that carry this persona,

Which is so very different from what we are deeply inside.

And the way I hear you speaking about it or just the feeling that comes up is that that could be maybe defeating in some way or just like what's the point of trying to express myself purely because still on this fundamental level there's this filtering process that's so automatic and everything I do maybe is doomed to be a contrived expression of anything because it's so efficiently happening on such an automatic level.

Yeah,

Yeah,

And I'm now also wondering from the perspective of the listener,

You know that the listener might be thinking,

Okay,

These guys they boast about,

You know,

Talking in the now and just sharing what they what comes up,

But actually they are not talking about this filtering going on.

So,

You know,

What is this.

So,

How would how would you say what,

You know,

Again I'm also thinking this and I'm also like posing a question to you as well so that maybe we can,

You know,

Again,

Be as open as we can be what we say to the participant that how does this fit in with our conversation and how does it make our conversation different from other conversations which may be are,

You know,

Some like filtered with purpose and on our own a specific topic.

For me,

The thing that's coming up is a sort of changed paradigm.

In the space of this thing of pure expression.

So maybe in the paradigm of ration rationality and analysis and filtering.

It's mechanical or there is a,

There's a series of steps to reach a final solution,

Or there's a problem and an answer there's a process and an endpoint.

And,

But maybe in this other realm or this practice of what we're attempting to do here.

Something potentially relieving is to totally let go of there being any idea of,

I'm going to reach a point where now it's all pure expression,

Or now I am quote unquote enlightened or now I'm beyond this filtering process but it can be just kind of fun to play with noticing the filtering process and action and attempting to step back from it.

And maybe at the same time give up any effort to try to get rid of it or what would that even mean.

There's like a playfulness to it that is relieving for me,

Which is really what we're doing here in my mind anyways is just trying to notice that filtering process as quickly and acutely as possible and keep letting go of it together.

But that's what I think of like it's not something that I could ever reach as an endpoint,

But it's just more of a direction.

Yeah,

I think the another thing and it's so fascinating that you know what,

What you were thinking about the I had all very similar,

Like,

You know,

Very,

Very similar part came to me in my one minute silence experience.

It was that how,

How our past experiences and thoughts affect what we talked about in the now,

You know,

And as you mentioned and exactly the same thing was coming to my mind you mentioned about having discussed,

You know,

We were discussing about like writing a book.

And just exactly the same thing came to my mind during that one minute Excel experience of silence that we just had this conversation on book and now it is kind of influencing me to talk about this.

And then I think,

You know,

I was listening to this talk by a Sadhguru and he has I believe just released a book called Karma and he was talking like he was giving I haven't read the book,

But he was giving like a gist of that book that what is that book about.

So he was saying that Karma is basically our past it's not it's not something like a lot of people believe that Karma is something bad and you know,

Because you have done terrible things now you have to suffer.

So he said no Karma is not like that Karma is simply the influence of our past on our present actions.

So whatever,

You know,

Thoughts whatever feelings or whatever emotions everything that is there inside us,

We are basically memory,

You know,

We are a set of memories we what we exist as human beings.

We are a container of past memories experiences and whatever we are doing now is being influenced by that.

So he said now where our power lies is to see that,

You know,

Be aware of those memories that we are be aware of this container and then take an action that is greater than that.

That is not influenced by,

You know,

From from those past experiences.

So what I can see here is that even our conversation which might seem to be like totally in the now coming from our intuition is somewhere on the other is influenced by our Karma and this container of memories that is that we are.

It kind of interesting to maybe that just the way you described it in the way I'm thinking of it now is almost like you would be using your Karma as like a compass because it's you're sort of looking out for it.

And it's the thing that can then allow you to sort of make an action that is less based on or less tied up in the Karma.

But it's,

It's still sort of a guiding force for you so there's a way in which that action is still sort of based on it.

Yeah,

But I guess one is,

This is,

I read this to actually on on Karma in this book that I'm reading where that line came from that I mentioned earlier this,

It's called Zen therapy by David brassier I think is his name.

And it was,

It said something about Karma,

And how any action that is sort of coming from that collection of memories or that is coming from me as that collection of memories,

Is just is reinforcing the Karma and it just like maintains that cycle maybe at large like the cycle of Samsara or the whole sort of terminology,

But actions that are not based on that collection of memories as a whole,

Is the extinguish extinguishing of Karma,

Like it's no it's sort of extinguishes through making an action that's not based on this,

Me as this collection of memories,

But maybe required and that is the continual awareness of the collection of memories in action.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

What would,

As you as you're saying this word comes to my mind is again a question that,

How about,

You know,

Looking at this container of memories.

Now there might be things,

There might be a lot of things that might be influencing our actions and our thoughts so for example,

If this container of memories has,

Let's say,

A memory of chocolate,

You know some childhood memory of chocolate being something related to happiness,

Like,

I can relate to that so this is a very personal example because chocolates were happiness to me.

And whenever why it was so because whenever,

Like my father would come back,

So he was out on his foreign trips and whenever he would come back to India,

He would bring a lot of chocolates.

So,

I think it was more happiness about my father coming back that I associated with the chocolates.

So chocolates became,

You know something which is synonymous to happiness for me.

So today I can,

I feel this urge,

And every,

Every time like I have this weakness which is chocolates,

And every time,

You know,

I would feel like if I feel start feeling low,

The first thought that would come to my mind is chocolates.

And I could,

I could notice my own memories how my memories are affecting my karma now in this moment.

So this is one thing which might be,

You know,

Okay something now I can avoid and maybe get into that state of awareness and see that how it is influencing me.

But on the other side of it,

There might be certain things in this container of memories that might be beneficial in our actions.

So for example,

Our experience with something,

You know,

It reminds me of that book by Malcolm Gladwell,

Blink,

In which he talks about how intuition,

You know,

Works and like within seconds of a painter who has,

Who has a lot of experience with painting,

He can look at a painting and he can tell that whether it is a fake or it is a real painting,

You know,

He can make that discernment.

So that discernment,

Which is coming from this container of memories and experiences,

Now is helping that person to,

You know,

In some way.

So maybe it is not about totally giving up that container,

But what we take out of that container to take our next action or karma.

I guess something there is,

He can also,

Or that person can also be aware that their ability has come from this experience,

And they can see it in context.

And so,

I mean,

In a way their,

You know,

Their action,

Their abilities informed by all of their experiences,

And they can see that that's where it comes from,

Maybe versus,

There could be a variety of things like attributing it to some godlike ability that they might have to do that or like,

Or it gets wrapped up in personal stuff or struggling to come up with other examples but there,

They can use it,

And they can know where it has come from at the same time.

They're not necessarily tied to it.

Yeah,

Potentially.

I was also thinking something as you were speaking.

Maybe in terms of what we're talking about playing out now in the moment between each other.

So,

There was something you were saying.

And it was the story about chocolate and your father,

And I was sort of noticing myself creating the next thing I was going to say you know based off of that.

And,

And then you had an additional point to say after that,

Which went into,

Like the example of Blink,

And the person who can recognize a painting and there's one way in which I could have.

And it's in some way I did but I was also internally attempting to let go of this.

And I could have just stayed with my initial thought and sort of waited for you to finish your remaining thought.

And in that way I'm sort of,

That feels more along the lines of the,

Whatever you might call it the rational thinking mind or maybe,

Maybe that's acting on me because sort of I,

I've attached to something,

And now I'm acting on it based on okay I've got this thing now I have to share it.

And that's taking me away from really listening to what you still have to say which might impact me in a different way.

So then there's,

I guess the possibility there of noticing that and letting go of it and trying to reopen to what you're saying right now,

Which will,

And which maybe brings up an interesting point to have action,

How action can be in action at the same time like that's an act of dropping something.

And maybe that's in its own way and it's an extinction of karma,

By me dropping something that I was internally holding on to in order to open back up to you in the moment.

Yeah,

But I'm wondering if maybe that kind of process is a helpful way of thinking of what we're talking about in any sort of interaction,

How like a pure organic kind of heart to heart interaction may,

This could be one example of it where you continually drop the stuff that you create to give you some sort of grasp and control over the interaction.

Like okay I've got the next thing.

And now I'm kind of staying with that I don't want to lose it I'm going to repeat it a little bit and be ready whenever it's my turn to go.

And there is this as you know as you're saying this I can also send my excitement and attachment to certain concepts that,

Oh,

This is so important to me I want to share that.

So I will be keep I will keep holding that till the time you finish but I think what you are rightly saying that you know the act of dropping it is also something which maybe brings us to that pure state of awareness.

There's a vulnerability there.

It's like a total dropping of control,

Which on one side is,

I think scary for the that inner mechanism of,

Of,

Like,

You know,

The collection of my memories which you know things in control.

And then on the other side it's really exciting because I'm continually,

I'm back I've dropped back into that pure space where anything could happen or anything could be born and I could,

I can't predict what it might be,

Which feels almost like it's outside of karma,

Or,

I mean it's if it's affected by everything that's happened as well so I don't even really know what that might mean,

But it feels it's more of a pregnant space of exploration,

When I continually drop just totally drop whatever it is that I was thinking of saying,

And then open back up to.

And it could be you or it could be the sky or it could be work that I'm doing,

Or driving.

Maybe the work,

If the work takes us back in a potentially interesting way to writing the book,

Because then we're back to that dynamic between trying to exert control over it.

Yeah,

Versus allowing it to happen.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I think the dropping that you're mentioning is what seems to me is,

Is similar to dropping the ego.

In the sense that when when there is,

You know,

When we are having this conversation and as you said that there is this attachment to this,

You know,

Idea that I want to share or this thought that I want to share,

And I'm holding on to that so it kind of seems similar to holding on to the ego that,

You know,

There's something about me that I want to share with you.

But what what dropping,

Then what happens is that just when when the,

The message flows,

You know,

And again this reminds me of like,

Jack Confield I think I mentioned this previous previously,

He mentioned something what his teacher Ajahn Chah told Jack Confield that when he was about to go on stage and he was nervous.

So he asked that,

Okay,

What do I do,

You know,

I'm,

I'm,

For the first time I'm speaking to 300 people.

And then Ajahn Chah said that just remember one thing it's,

It's not about the messenger it's about the message.

And what you know this dropping feels to me is very similar to that that when,

When our conversation is about the messenger about me and you,

Then it is coming from that place of karma and past memories and everything but when we totally surrender to the message,

It's like an energy flowing in which I dissolve you dissolve,

We don't we do not exist anymore at some as separate entities,

But we are just this energy this message that is flowing to and fro,

You know,

In this field.

So it's something like that the messenger has basically diluted gone and the message remains.

Where does the messenger go do you think?

The messenger,

What I feel was never was never there is something that we have like hardened as a concept and created because of our conditioning.

And actually like we I think a lot of times,

Again,

Unknowingly we do experience moments of the messenger not being there,

And you know just things flowing and I like I feel that I'm sure you also feel that in,

In our conversations when just things are when there is just the message and this messenger has deserved.

So it's like you're seeing through something momentarily that was never there.

But you have this feeling that it is there.

Again,

I was having some sort of vision of there being this layer that's,

It's a.

What's the word,

Like,

Iridescent or something it's just sort of shiny thing that's sort of fading in and out.

Or it might be really thick on top of you,

Or it could be just sort of,

Like I said,

Fading in and out momentarily.

Maybe that's kind of like what it feels like for me now in this space with you.

Inevitably,

That self is here in some way but it's interesting the way you say it that it's never there.

And so what is it that thinks that it's there?

I think that that's,

That's the mind,

That's where the mind comes in.

You know because the mind,

It comes with the thought that I am or it comes with the thought,

Anything related to I you know as Ramana Maharshi said that the very thought of I is the root of it,

Where the ego starts.

So,

I think it is that thought but maybe a state of not having that thought is something which is pure and just flowing,

You know,

And where the messenger dissolves actually.

Makes me think of language again,

How,

How ingraining of that notion of a self language is.

I wonder if,

You know,

Having the term I and me,

And we and they,

From a very fundamental age or when you learn this.

It's teaching you,

It's ingraining in you that I is a thing,

It's a noun.

You are a noun,

Just like any other thing that you see and all things are separate nouns.

It reminds me of something Alan Watts said,

I can't remember exactly how he said it but it was like,

We're fitting reality into the rules of grammar,

And that's going about it the wrong way.

But if we,

If those rules are sort of baked into us from such a young age,

That it would be hard for us to see through,

They're just these rules,

There's these conceptual tools like math,

Like to help us in some way.

We're sort of restricted to fitting our immense reality into the rules of grammar.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It also makes me wonder that,

As you were saying,

Saying this little picture was coming into mind of two babies,

Like being very close to each other and having a,

You know,

Some,

Some energy exchange between them.

So I was thinking about a baby who still hasn't developed the,

You know,

Linguistic capabilities of learning language or maybe they are not conditioned that way yet.

Or maybe they haven't developed this sense of I,

You know,

Till now because they don't know what I is.

And then I'm thinking,

Okay,

Then,

If there is no ego there and let's say,

You know,

There are two babies and I was this weird picture was coming to my mind where you are on,

You know,

You are sitting there as a baby,

Small baby,

And I'm sitting here as a small baby and we are having it.

So what then how this exchange will be where there is no I maybe where is there,

There is no conversation.

But maybe then it's just the message without language flowing between us,

You know,

Which will be babies feel as an energy,

Some sort of energy flowing between them.

And they maybe then start,

You know,

Loving each other in that energy,

Maybe touching each other's face and,

You know,

Exploring things and being curious about what's there.

Right.

Something like that.

Yeah.

Versus maybe an adult who's limited to the paradigm of language might look at that and assume that there's no communication going on.

Yeah,

Really,

There might be some really direct immediate communication happening that we're incapable of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And as you were saying that about your vision.

I noticed that's something that I do frequently which has become aware of some visual that has popped up in my mind and then try to share it.

And I guess that to me feels like it's getting closer to something pure,

Because that just comes up,

It's not limited to language,

I then fit it into language.

But it's something that just kind of arises and I don't know where it came from.

It's based on some combination of what has happened up to that point.

But whatever has happened has elicited something.

And that's way more on the creative side of me and it feels a lot more alive and it really can't,

It's not contrived.

This just happened and,

Like the image of the color and the filter or this layer on top of me or you with these image of the two babies like where did these come from,

And then maybe that's something,

Like for the listener for example it could be a fun experiment to try to play with in everyday life.

Although it might feel weird to do this,

Maybe if you're at work or even with a friend or it might be a strange thing to just be communicating and say,

Well when you said that I had this vision of this,

But I wonder if that might be a way of playing with more kind of pure outside of rational,

Ego,

Karma based self way of communicating.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And this again makes me realize the power of pictures and power of paintings and,

You know,

Now it makes me value art much more because that is a more,

What I feel is a pure depiction of,

You know,

Not exactly pure but maybe a more expressive depiction of what is actually going on rather than language.

You know,

So,

Because we can see as you said we can see that picture in our mind right now.

You know,

You see that of that rainbow and I'm seeing that of that babies,

But if the listener is listening to just the words,

Then maybe we are not doing justice to what we are seeing actually in our mind but we can actually depict that in a more expressive way through art,

Let's say,

You know,

Maybe drawing a painting of it,

And that will be more expressive,

And I think the listener will be able to get us more of what we are talking about here.

So interesting too,

That then by you putting that image in this interpersonal space,

It creates that image within me,

And I have my own visual of what that looks like and then we can play with that,

And it becomes this very sort of alive and playful thing,

Like I imagine your visual of the babies and mine and the listeners are all different.

That could be something to explore,

Like,

What does yours look like or what do you see,

How are they arranged?

For me it's like two babies are lying on a bed,

And you know,

I think we were talking about color so like colors come to my mind like one is dressed in pink,

The other is dressed in green or something,

You know like a towel,

And then they are like just lying side by side each other and they are like just,

You know,

They are excited to see each other.

Like they are,

They are this curious,

There is this curiousness and they are like their eyes are wide open and they're,

You know,

Beaming,

Smiling and just like kind of touching each other's face,

Just in this experience of curiosity.

What comes to your mind?

Mine is two babies in the same posture.

I'm seeing it from a side view,

And they're both on their hands and knees,

Like crawling,

And they're facing each other.

But interestingly,

And maybe it's because of we're looking at each other on a computer screen.

There's,

There's a glass sort of window pane between them.

They're both,

They're both right up next to the window pane and just kind of like curiously looking through.

I wonder if even there's some like a mirror image there too which could impact their experience but that's the way I'm seeing it.

There's also,

There's no boundary of this,

This glass window pane.

It's not connected to anything.

It's just there's a room.

They're inside a room,

Maybe a living room.

And there's this window that's,

They could go around it if they wanted to.

But it's in between the two and they're both just facing right up to the small piece of glass.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

I think it makes me more and more and more curious about what is a baby's experience and if we somehow can get back to that experience.

You know,

It's so wonderful to not have a sense of I,

You know that,

Okay,

I'm maybe the baby things,

But what the baby looks at that becomes the eye.

So let's say you know I'm the baby and I'm looking at you.

So for me,

You is me.

You know,

Maybe this body is not me,

But now because I,

You are in my experience so you become me.

So then again,

You know what is I and what is now maybe the baby starts thinking okay you know this curiosity,

When I look at you that what is this is this me,

You know,

I don't know that what's going on in the mind of a baby but it would be so fascinating to have that kind of an experience,

An open experience here.

And there's,

There's one way in which that could be viewed as maybe self aggrandizing or selfish,

Or even ego maniacal in some way like you have this very selfish view of the world so everything is me.

That's also maybe through our adult version of the ego,

So,

Because it can be that but in a way that is totally unselfish because there is no me because we imply we imply that separate self that,

Yeah,

The baby might be looking at everything and they are.

They are me,

Like that thing is me that separate thing is part of me but maybe there's no sense of the separate me to begin with so just when I see you.

You are me in this moment,

Or whatever it is that's filling up my present moment environment is me without in without implying this separate me that is the possessor or the owner of whatever this thing is,

Which is without that any sort of selfishness,

Because there's no self.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

And then I think,

I think it's it's kind of a paradox that there is no self but at the same time,

At the same time,

Everything is me.

You know that there is this.

Yeah,

It's it's I think this is what now,

As we have conversation about it we we start come to a point of point of realization that it again boils down to what you know maybe spiritual mistakes have been saying through ages that everything is one.

And I think this this conversation is now bringing us closer to maybe experiencing it in some way,

You know,

It's like it's so exciting it's so fascinating to kind of deduce it like a like a mathematical formula so for example,

Yeah,

This equation is given by by you know by the spiritual mistakes whatever that is maybe let's take for example is equal to MC square,

But we start with,

You know,

Like,

E and MS separate things and then we kind of do all these calculations in this conversation and when we arrive at that equation we have kind of started that equation.

Right,

Right.

That kind of a process to me.

Using the tool of logic or the thinking mind as the tool but not as the master.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

The tool,

The thinking mind is kind of I see it as a,

As a boat that brings us to the shore.

You know the the show it up experience this and then you leave the boat at the shore you don't try to carry it on to the.

Yeah,

Yeah,

And,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And then we're,

We just,

It's this back and forth,

Crossing the river or the ocean process so if you go back on the boat to work,

Play with something,

Figure out,

And then you get back to a place of just experience there's nothing more to figure out here.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I kind of like that notion.

That's something that I've thought about before in different ways like maybe a day is filled up with quote unquote problems that present themselves.

Got to have breakfast.

So here's a series of steps to get to that point where,

Okay,

Now I have breakfast in front of me.

And I guess there's still steps involved in bringing the breakfast to my mouth but at that point I also can let go of that boat and experience the meal.

Yeah.

Or,

Like,

Trying to figure out an interpersonal problem or someone comes to you for advice or all these different things there's just these series of things to like play with and I'm envisioning.

Okay,

So let me get on the boat will go out and then come back to a place where there's,

It can't go any further.

It's just experience.

Yeah,

Yeah.

What comes to my mind is the example that's coming to my mind is this kind of solving of equations because I was talking about equations.

But the purpose of solving equations is to for us humanity to experience the benefit out of it and not just stay in the equation.

So for example,

You know something like if we are,

If a scientist and I can see,

See that something is let's say in the future,

A scientist is working on solving gravity,

You know,

As an equation something that was similar was shown in the movie Instead of interstellar.

And then they're working on this equation and they finally come to a solution,

A final equation,

Which which kind of solves gravity and then maybe for now,

It's time just to experience that and give up the calculation part and maybe,

You know,

Create a spaceship that can experience anti gravity and,

You know,

Just fly off into space,

Something like that,

That it,

Then it becomes about all this rationality,

All these talks then finally then only become about deriving the benefit of experience out of it.

Right.

I've heard that as a distinction between science and spirituality that one is based on sort of predicting and improving and conceptualizing and the other is about experiencing.

And both are very valuable.

But it can be easy to maybe get caught up in just one or the other,

Or in,

You know,

Doing the scientific perspective,

Just for the sake of the site and then you lose sight of the experiential element of it like it makes me think of just extending the lifespan for the sake of extending the lifespan,

But if,

If you're not also enjoying or like what's the point of extending it if,

If you're just going to keep trying to extend it.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And I am also fascinated by how it brings us back to,

You know,

To it's like a circle that completes and bring us back to where we started our conversation with this idea of intuition and rationality both having their own benefits.

And,

You know,

And I think we have come to the same conclusion that both as you said,

Both are important,

The experience and the calculation,

The science and the spirituality and the rational mind and the intuition.

So,

I think a good time to get into meditation.

Sounds good.

I was just gonna say,

Yeah,

I think we.

There might be a craving for it to be just one or the other because that simplifies things.

But then it seems like maybe in everything,

You just always come back to,

Well,

It's a balance.

It's like,

You got to find,

You know,

They're both.

Yes,

And both of them and.

But that takes a certain sort of discipline,

Or practice or intention,

Like you kind of always,

It requires a certain sort of,

Quote unquote,

Effort.

And that's okay.

So I just wanted to mention that that like maybe inevitable desire for it to be kind of all one or the other.

I'm reminded of,

You know,

The term,

The middle path or the middle way.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So I can experience this in my life also what you're saying,

Because there are times when,

You know,

I would just want to and again,

I feel that somewhere or the other rationality is also influenced by intuition because it intuitively feels that,

You know,

Maybe for now it's time to let go of the experience and maybe become rational.

So,

For example,

What's happening with me these days is that I have stopped meditating.

And this is like,

You know,

At one point of like,

I can have a judgment around this.

You can,

You know,

I can judge myself around.

How can you not meditate?

You know,

You meditation is everything and you are a meditation teacher.

You are supposed to meditate every day.

But then at the same time,

You know,

I'm just surrendering to this intuition,

Which is telling me to maybe not do that for now and maybe,

You know,

Contemplate on things.

And,

You know,

It's not something that that's happening out of laziness.

It's something that is happening.

My intuition is telling me.

So if there is a time,

You know,

If it's like morning meditation time,

My intuition is telling me,

Oh,

Go read a book,

You know,

Or it's telling me,

OK,

Think about this topic or it's telling me,

Watch this documentary.

And I'm like,

This is then again my intuition telling me and I if I'm if I'm if I'll ignore that,

Then that is my resistance to it.

So maybe for now,

It's OK to give up meditation because this is what is supposed to be explored,

The rationality,

The content,

Whatever that is.

Really interesting.

Do you have any such experiences?

I totally do.

Yeah.

It might be a good one to explore if we if we come upon it again in the future,

Like especially as people that might be seen as possibly depending on who you are,

Some sort of expert on the topic or a teacher of meditation or promoter of meditation and mindfulness.

And I know my my own sort of practice has certainly evolved over time and has become more and more or less and less attached to doing it in a particular way or all the time.

Just so interesting that you mentioned that I wonder if maybe something relevant to do now would be to end without meditation practice or without any sort of sitting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How does that seem to you?

Like something a practice without a practice?

Seems valuable.

That's interesting.

Again,

I don't know if it is my rationality or,

You know,

It's kind of trying to see how that situation is,

You know,

Like as it's like as it's happening now.

Yeah.

Like it's it's like a it's like a contemplation on this dilemma that,

OK,

Do I if if this is a meditation or if,

You know,

If it's not a meditation,

As you said,

Then is there a guidance or is there no guidance?

Well,

The thing I guess,

Well,

Tell me what how you're hearing this,

But my idea is just to kind of abruptly stop and not provide any guidance and and and that be the sort of practice of letting go of what maybe is familiar and just stopping.

Yeah,

That's interesting.

And maybe just letting the listener also to to listen to their intuition,

What they want to do towards the end or after the session ends,

Rather than having that very fixed idea of doing a meditation.

That sounds good to me.

Sounds good to me as well.

All right,

Cool.

Thanks as always for spending this time with me.

It's like so nourishing to me and I feel like it's very sharpening of I've said this to you before,

But of my ability to in the moment access what I'm feeling and thinking and try to express it in as pure form as possible,

Which is outside of any other thing outside of this being a podcast or whatever is pretty valuable little piece of my life.

So thanks for the listener to know.

Thank you so much.

And I think there's something you mentioned the benefit and I would like to share is that like I have benefited so much benefited so much out of these conversations that,

You know,

Initially,

So as many of the listeners would know that Charles and I we also do live sessions here on insight timer.

And as I was,

As I last year,

We were beginning with the live sessions and at that time,

I remember,

Like,

Having the content ready before doing the live sessions,

You know,

Noting down everything.

I think I also showed you my board where and I would write down all everything each and everything.

But now it has become like,

You know,

By doing these sessions,

It has become really spontaneous and I think it has helped me to just surrender and to the moment to this now and what I feel is that there is more beauty,

You know,

Coming up in the live sessions by just being and not coming with those preconceived ideas.

So yes,

I'm really grateful for that.

I look forward to next time.

Yeah,

See you next time.

Bye.