On Suffering and Desire: Did the Buddha only get it Half right?

How suffering might be the motivator towards desire as an escape from pain. And in this conversation we explore ways for reverting that process.

Transcript

Welcome to the Trauma Therapy Transformation Podcast,

Where we explore health,

Recovery and consciousness.

On desire and suffering,

Did the Buddha only get it half right?

Now of course,

I mean I get these kind of phrases or questions in my head quite spontaneously and then it's like ah,

Let me kind of note that down quickly because it's a good topic to open it up with somebody.

And I got quite stimulated after our last talk and I've been kind of inviting some other people to kind of meet as we're doing right now as well just to kind of have that bubbling fresh energy to get our own minds moving.

So my take on this question was that I'm not a Buddhist,

I don't have too much knowledge about Buddhism though I've traveled quite a bit in Buddhist countries and I've been to quite a number of monasteries and Rinpoches etc.

Though there's,

The little that I know,

There's a lot of emphasis on desire,

The wheel of desire and how that creates suffering and there's the eight steps and there's all the kind of principles of you have to follow of not falling into desire.

Now in me coming from a kind of trauma,

Working with chronic pains background,

I kind of see it the other way around that desire is kind of an outcome once we've gone through a sense of suffering and that could be on different levels.

So when I'm suffering from something there's the impulse I create to not be with that suffering or to have it solved or to get rid of it and I can see out of that that desire manifests itself.

So just a few simple examples,

When I have one of my parents who's very overbearing and puts me down all the time or belittles me,

I might develop a pattern of having to prove myself or being something or somebody and I project that later on in the world of okay if I only have the perfect girlfriend or the perfect car or the perfect job or the perfect credentials then I'll be somebody and I'll be recognized.

Of course a lot of that happens unconsciously throughout the years because we internalize that.

So hence my question or my kind of provocative way of putting it,

Does desire and it does I mean it does create something when you go into that direction but might there be a step before that that actually sets off that movement of desire and this is more kind of from a developmental perspective the example I just put forward but it could also be you've been in a car accident and then you fall back on alcoholism or smoking pot or losing yourself into sex or whatever,

Could be whatever as a way of coping with the suffering of the accident because it's been overwhelming and again that there's a desire to want to overcome or forget and that's intrinsically linked to suffering.

So it becomes in itself it becomes a wheel like suffering creates desire and then desire eventually creates more suffering.

So we're just to give it a twist and turn it around.

So I mean that's my take on it and of course I like to see what as I'm talking what kind of neurons I'm triggering on your end.

I'm busy typing here so that I can keep track of the flashes that my neurons are sending.

So I hear you and love the question because it gets at what has turned out to be what feels like my life's work.

I recognize that all of these years of doing and teaching yoga has been about suffering.

There is inherent in every yoga pose and especially here in the West the instigation of suffering as a means to get to a kind of bliss,

Akin in my mind almost to receiving a tattoo,

The extended period of discomfort leading to a kind of euphoric endorphin high and that I do a yoga class and then it is satisfactory because I go into Shavasana and I feel so darn good and so released.

But what I think is at the core of that is our culture the way I was brought up was to never be uncomfortable.

Take a pill,

Here's a solution etc.

Etc.

There was never the message discomfort is your best friend.

Suffering is your opportunity and I'm recognizing even in the description I was using earlier about my middle of the night bliss session because it was blissful to go and let go that it was the very discomfort and seeing it as a gift not as a problem that created my current way of being in the world.

Relax,

It is what it is,

In each present moment is everything I want and need,

I just don't see it yet.

The discomfort is the I don't see it yet,

Rather than making that a problem I see it as an opportunity to do present curious patience to receive the blessing.

That's kind of what yoga turns out to be.

So how are we going to,

Like when we're stuck in a certain pattern,

How are we bringing that into consciousness and again especially so that again I work with people who have gone through various degrees of trauma that what brings it into awareness that the pursuit of desire or the pursuit of endorphins or periods whatever you want to call it isn't going to be a long-term strategy.

So even like if I consider myself there's certain patterns that take quite a while to interrupt because they're moving in the unconscious.

So as we're talking about it you and me and kind of going into it as a dialogue questioning without like being the expert etc etc.

How is it that we're going to find out that we're stuck in a rut?

By two things,

At some point recognizing that nothing I believe,

Think or feel is true.

So I no longer need to be stuck in anything.

If I no longer believe my feelings are true they stop having the power to trigger the thoughts that trigger the feelings that trigger the beliefs that trigger the thoughts and they become an abstract over there.

But there's also where the difficulty is not to kind of question that your own thoughts and feelings might not,

It might just be a subjective reality and there might be more to it more layers to it etc.

But it sometimes seems like we need to have something serious happening to us before we actually wake up to that.

It might be physical or it might be psychological like your wife leaves or you bust your knee or you get into a car accident before you actually want to shift your reality because and I say that often when I work with people that there's two parts of the work.

One is to address the emotion or post traumatic stress and then the other part is to address the habits we have formed around the post traumatic stress because the habits are kind of recreating all the time our reality and then that reality becomes a fixed given that we rely on it and we believe in it and that makes up our identity.

So there's a lot of sense of danger of having to move away from our own sense of reality.

Because you and I are charged with helping the culture to understand that the negative things that happen in our lives,

I mean it's not like we be first saying it but I do believe we have the opportunity to promulgate it,

The negative things that happen in my life or yours are the thing.

It is what moves us along the path and that the I always say to people when they say,

Oh man they would come to me,

My yoga students would come to me and say and they'd start this story of oh I had this terrible thing happen and I broke my leg and I had a car accident and I go great.

I have to be a little bit more careful with my patients or people but yeah I get where you're coming from.

And I'd say so where's the opportunity in here for you?

What is it breaking open from this reality tunnel that you have lived in that says you should not have had a car accident or a knee injury or otherwise and now can you recognize that we are all upside down in a boat trying to figure out why we're drowning.

It is because we think the boat is supposed to be right sized up and we can in our own lives turn the boat to be able to breathe only by letting go of what our expectation of reality is and instead just being with it.

So as things happen,

The two things that speak to me in the Buddhist parameter is impermanence and entropy.

Nothing I am going to ever do is going to stop the breaking down of everything.

Nothing I have or think I have is ever going to actually stay in my grip.

Those two things alone break me slowly as I actually apprehend them from my illusion that anything I'm doing has any meaning.

Right.

Now let me challenge you a little bit there just with an example right.

Say for example I'm a woman.

I've been through sexual abuse by a family member when I was young for many years.

I get into repeated sexual abusive relationships in my adult life and I have the notion that all men are bad.

All men are worthless.

They can't be trusted.

That's my reality I've created based on my experiences.

So I'm meeting you and I know I'm challenging you with this right now but what would be your � how would you be able to help me?

I'm in this.

How would you help me?

I would say do you want to be involved in a process where I invite you into a different way of being?

If you agree that there is intention on your part to leave this reality experience and recognize it for what it is � a teaching opportunity,

A learning opportunity � I would then say exhale and allow the psycho-spiritual chemical shape of all of your thoughts and experiences to stop holding your body in the exact position it's holding.

As the fear and tension drop from your shoulders,

As the belief in your thoughts leaves your body-mind as you start to let go of this is who I am and that identity you've posted on the wall is no longer the one you turn to to see who you are at the moment but you actually are willing,

If you're willing,

To stay here with me and see,

Yes indeed,

I am capable and I do represent all that horror that you've experienced.

So let me take that one step further,

Right,

Because one thing I pick up which is really clear is,

Which I also advocate is,

There needs to be an intention to want to heal.

You need to start with that setting,

That intention to heal,

Which is paramount before anything else.

So say me being this person who's been abused,

I have that intention to heal but also I have a lot of anxiety.

One is that to work with somebody also means to open up,

Be vulnerable and I have a lot of anxiety because my vulnerability has been dishonoured and has been hurt so much.

How are you going to hold the space for that or give safety to that and kind of implement the things that you just mentioned?

We talk about it quite quickly now because we're talking rather than going into an actual therapy or coaching process but me being that person,

Having that intention to heal,

Having that anxiety also,

How would you create the space for me?

I would describe that there is no swift or easy solution but that the notion of letting the discomfort itself be the place in which freedom,

Possibility and joy start to emerge.

So the phrase I would use is present.

Can we make an agreement that we will stay present with one another for the period of time we are working and the ongoing engagement we choose to take that we recognise it will require us to stay present over and over again when the urge to go back into the experience or go back into the projections occurs?

That we stay curious that I have a cultural and experiential tendency now to think I know and to predict and enact a kind of past experience and instead I am going to be willing to stay curious and see what's happening rather than let the past experience dominate my perception of what's happening in the present.

And then the last is an incredible willingness to stay patient.

The failure does not indicate the reality,

It just is a pointer in the moment that oh,

My past experience is so powerful it has taken me back again.

Can you forgive me?

I can forgive you if you can forgive me and we step back into present,

Curious and patient and just stay there long enough that suddenly it's no longer interesting to go back and it starts to become more interesting to stay here.

Right,

Okay,

Nicely said.

Patient I will use the word persistent but patient,

It goes together.

What is your take in this hallucination that I've just been sharing?

As we all do we kind of translated into our own filters and perceptions so as you're asking me that question I'm also thinking okay how am I actually sitting with people who come to me and what's my approach so I'm listening to you and at the same time I'm listening to okay where am I coming from and what am I putting out there as agreements or where you're working.

So what you said the intention to you I'm fully with that and secondly to be very patient and persistent because when you live with something for 20,

15,

30,

40 years there's a habit pattern that forms around our protective structures and there's a lot of work we have to invest into taking the energy,

Reabsorbing the energy that we've invested into guilt,

Blame,

Self-reproach,

Embarrassment,

Shame,

Regret,

Jealousy because those are the binding factors that pin down our emotional,

Our core emotions,

Fear,

Anger,

Sadness.

So rather than going into forgiveness which is not really my concept at all but anyway that's another discussion we can open up at some point I really put a focus into okay what's the story that we're working with,

What are the binding factors which I just mentioned guilt,

Blame,

Self-reproach,

Embarrassment,

Regret,

Jealousy,

Shame and what's the emotions that kind of keep repeating themselves and we have a lot of attachment to our emotions even if they produce sufferings in us.

They also produce especially maybe yeah and it sounds a bit perverted but they also give us a sense of safety because they become part of the known and moving out of or moving towards healing means that you're moving into the unknown and it needs a relearning of trust and letting go of control so they're all big big topics and especially when you've gone through some form of abuse and the more abuse neglect you've gone through the more work it requires.

So there are quite a few steps to kind of look at to kind of work with what I mentioned earlier that is actually addressing the emotions and then there's the addressing the habit pattern that we formed around the emotion.

So thank you I just got a problem I just still love talking.

The piece that struck me as you were talking was the what I want doesn't matter that usually is an underlying thought in the mind of the person who has been abused,

Raped or otherwise lost control of a situation and the what I want doesn't matter I try to address by creating a menu of options during the therapeutic process that allow them to choose which of the do you want to do voice dialogue today?

Would you like to just talk about I kind of tend to push people away from talking about the past and toward talking about the present and the future but the opportunity to do you really need to let go of some of this today?

What would you like to do today from this menu and that sense of oh what I want does matter for this person I'm probably projecting some sort of something on to and that gives a sort of sense there and then the other piece is that I do seek to help people or invite people into not believing that their mind will solve any of their problems.

That there's an ego less wisdom that only can be found through the body awareness and as we both were just saying the body has these deep deep deep memories and all the issues are indeed in the tissues somewhere and the example I would offer is I have been playing with myself in the following way I took my garage door opener off the windshield visor and put it down by the console and I'm noticing my daily experience as I approach the garage that the body reaches before I have had a thought for the control to be on the visor and that body memory is really what's running so much of my life that I cannot expect my mind which is busy turning the wheel or deciding whether that person over there looks good bad or indifferent has the ability to actually get me to break my habit.

So I have to invite the body to shift in ways that are still despite my life of working in this area.

I want to use the word nefarious it seems as though there's a conspiracy against my ability to affect my body's habits and I am so far left with seeking a morning meditative request to the body to be different during the day and a moment by moment awakening so that I am aware of its messages as opposed to just being a rider in the vehicle of my body's constant stream of old habitual messages.

So I think that's relevant and I would really love to hear if you know of ways to help better like I say the breath is when I fall back into all the time if I exhale more often if I am actually able to frequently exhale I have some access but do you have other ways that help access this body memory piece?

Right I mean it depends a bit where you are in the moment sometimes it's good to be with the body and sometimes when there's too activation it's good to not be too much with the body so it really depends on where you are in a given moment and what you can hold and contain.

So say I'm the person in my past example I have a woman who's been through abuse when I get activated something triggers me then being too much with the body might actually get me too focused on my suffering and will get me into a state of hyperactivity hypervigilance anxiety so then staying with the body might not be the right solution if I can't contain it which there's a big difference there.

So in these instances it would be good as a managing technique sometimes to just be physically very active to reduce a little bit the stress build up of course there's a moment where you have to come back to the body but when there's too much traumatic activation the body isn't a safe place to be with.

So then it's kind of contraindicated indicative to go too quick too close to the body.

Now that said as a therapist you work towards at least me from a body oriented expert and direction you work towards getting back into the body the only difference is that you build up enough containment and holding to be with the body and its responses.

So it's the constant like again coming back to the Buddha story is finding the middle way as to not too much and not too little and I use that in terminology as to not get too focused on your sensations your responses but also not to get pushed out of it so neither rejecting nor accepting neither getting too focused on it nor getting pushed out of it neither getting neither drowning in the emotion nor running away from it and that brings in a different dimension it brings in the dimension of presence awareness attention which is what gives you your field of resilience and that's what we're lacking when we feel overwhelmed that erupt is our emotional boundaries and then erupt is our containment and that's when the trouble starts so ID can do that on your own or you work with people with a coach or a therapist whatever work you want to give to it but the essence of work to me is to build up that resilience again which means that you're able to be more present to hold more of yourself and within that holding more of yourself you can actually process that emotions that have been overwhelming for you in the past and the funny thing is and the body is a great resource to do that to slowly go back as you're exploring as you're talking about what's bothering you or has been bothering you to kind of okay as you're talking about that where does it resonate with you and your body and me coming from a bodywork perspective I can feel or see that very easily where people are with their attention I can see subtle changes in their breath I can see when they're in their head or when they're holding up their shoulders there's a lot of body language that you can pick up quite quickly and if you've been touching a lot of bodies with bodywork you get a you get a finesse you get a sensitivity for that to pick that up so that greatly helps of course too okay I can see that your breath changes or I can kind of feel or imagine that you're more in the solar plexus tell me what's happening for you as you're as we're exploring this topic so these kind of they might be very simple but they sometimes the more simple the more direct the more effective they are but again coming back to containment being able to hold building up resilience gives you more presence takes you away from this story you tell yourself which is always infused by guilt blame self-approach and all these other binding factors and that bit by bit helps you to process those core emotions which would be anger sadness or fear or some form of that and then so the story what happened isn't so important it's more the emotions and the relation to the body and through kind of unwrapping that we're going through the layers that starts to clear up the space and you want to get people away from the past or even away from the future and into the present I know I'm rambling on once I start to kind of this is what you beautifully did and what I took mainly from our first time our conversation of the way in which you focused it on a part and and did this unraveling I'd like to just because we only have a couple of minutes left I wanted to say something about I have had this recent experience where I felt overwhelmed and and I recognized that a process happened in the midst of the anxiety and the loss of control of my emotions I felt a kind of rapids I was out of control and the moment of breakthrough was when I remembered to exhale and pause this exhale pause is like a magic trick to get the body's wisdom to come alive so if you take that apart what happens at that moment the the mind is so occupied on the survival instinct as I wait for the next breath that it makes the pattern of the mind's story the body becomes interested in survival enough that it breaks the chemical story that the body is now living through and the time and space that occur between breaths is that place of in yogic lore a place of that's where all power really is so suddenly I have set up all the right conditions for a chance for things to change it is the the vehicle of change then the the weight now produces time so now I have a sense of separation for a moment from all those things and then when I take the breath if I take it in any empowering way for its full I like to do it with the abdomen in so that it forces the breath up into the lungs and as I raise myself and the spine extends and my head and shoulders come into what Trungpa called good head and shoulders next thing you know I am in a position of Kundalini pranic magnificence it breaks my story of victim perpetrator it ends the small contractive being and starts to produce an expansive I am vast enough to hold it all and that leads to a kind of shift that then repeated slowly massages me out of whatever contractive right angus overwhelm I was in and me to have a sense of now I can just dive right into the overwhelm and like a wave on the beach it doesn't topple me and spin me and take me up throw but I can go through it and that's the only solution is to go through.

Bless you with a beautiful heart young man we'll do this again and I am so blessed by the conversation.

Reviews

I am passionate about this topic. I am a Sexual Educator and a Couples Coach. I thank you for the tool of pausing and exhaling when in this contracted state of desire is present when we feel for example that our sexual needs are not being met.

I really do think that the Buddha did not have it 100% right as sex is a beautiful event in our lives especially when you activate the kundaluni as you mentioned.

I want to highlight the simple mindful feeling of eating a raisin and feeling the present joy that this can bring. (mindfulness-based stress reduction teachings.)

That is a beautiful part of life as is making love. I feel that this is left out in these 'Desire Buddhist Teachings". It is similar to the joy of eating. You do get hungry. Feel the emotions of that and feed yourself delicious healthy food. Take care of your hunger in a healthy way. Really feel the joy of eating. You will feel hungry, thats ok. C'est la vie, no suffering needed.

Again, it's the same as making love. Take care of what brings you pleasure in a way that is a balanced state with equinity, compassion and love.

If there is contracted state, I love your teachings: pause and exhale, meditate on it to release the power that it has over you. If it becomes overwhelming, get help. Its difficult to find identical matching desires. Find someone that can help your couple, find a qualified practitioner or coach if making love in this connected mindfulness state would be one of life's pleasures you could potentially reall enjoy in your couple... This life in this body is short. Be free of guilt and shame. Making love is one of lifes biggest pleasures. I see in my meditation communities that making love is off the table because of this desire rule. If desire is such a negative goal to 'strive for', meditate on that. We are not munks. This could be suffering in itself. We don't have to suffer, let's communicate this special place where we make love in a mindful and connected way, totally feel the bliss and enjoyment in that present moment we are designed to feel.

Babies feel this sexual feeling from birth and even in the mother's womb. Its 100% natural.

What a great talk. We need more... Keep it going please.

I would love to chat. Feel free to be in touch.

Let's put making love on the table when we talk about desire. It needs to be a healthy and open discussion. Do you agree?

Marie-Claire Thauvette
Relationship Bliss

The conversation contained some nuanced thought on being present to mind/body when habitual trauma patterns arise. The desire to release from habitual suffering seems to require a middle way... knowing when to become present and knowing when to step away from a hyper-aroused body state. Much food for work! Thank you!

This is discussion very on-point. Much of it I can reflect on my past and relate to in the present. Thank you for sharing it.

A very helpful podcast with actionable exercises

This is very good thank you

Very interesting to hear a different perspective on suffering / desire interactions. Love Roland Bal's work for trauma & PTSD so am delighted to find him here :-)
Thank you

Insightful 🙏🏼✨

Thank you two... Beautiful guidance ❤️ I hope you both do more🙏🏼

So one must first have the belief that they have the control to break from the past and their cycle of thought and behavior patterns, see the opportunity in breaking from it, and create the intention to do so. Only then can there be effective focus on the present breath that, with time, practice and patience, will retrain the mind out of historical patterns to create a new reality. Very helpful to have experienced clinician and Buddhist leader discussing this. Thank you!

What food for my day... many many thanks for this talk of possibility outside the realm of my current ( small) suffering.

Interesting. Worth listening to again.

This conversation was very timely and useful. I enjoyed the examples and practical applications for dealing with trauma/suffering. It was helpful to understand binding factors as it relates to base emotions, especially how these get encoded in the body memory. Thanks so much for the 'food for thought!'

6 stars for honoring was has been as a process for becoming what is in the context of discomfort as opportunity to heal. Fantastic dialogue and grace with direction for my what is and solid direction for repair. Namaste we are one.

Wholeheartedly enjoyed this podcast.I will listen to it again. Thank you x

Very insightful. Thank you 🙏

fascinating discussion!

Yes. Bless your beautiful hearts! Lots to consider and work on, I am excited to continue to work with developing compassion - for myself and others. Thank you. More please.

Thank you Roland for sharing more of your website podcast, I will surely check it out! Much appreciated :-)

Deeply insightful, thought provoking, action-oriented conversation about the nature and utility of suffering.

Loved this dialogue--most stimulating; more please!!👍🙏🕉