Letting Spirit Guide Your Creativity W/ Wakes - Ada & Nathan

In this interview, I sit down with Ada and Nathan Ketchie, the artists behind WAKES, whose music and presence have guided thousands into stillness, surrender, and emotional healing. We talk about the power of sound as medicine, the invisible threads that pulled them into their work, and what it really means to build a soul-led business from the ground up. This conversation is a reminder that you don’t have to figure it all out. You just have to follow the next step.

Transcript

So I think we were just chatting before and you mentioned both being in the same town, I think, Growing up. So I'd love to just hear, And you mentioned that you were maybe babysitting him or a friend was babysitting him. My friend, Maybe. I'd love to, You know, Know how you guys met, How, You know, Was, Did you meet through music? When did music come through? Was it an unfolding of your life? Yeah, I'll just pause and just, Yeah, I'd love to hear kind of your guys' love story slash journey together to doing this. Well, I would say that in the beginning, There were rumpa-pum-pums and fa-la-las. So our singing together now is quite apropos, Considering how we met Christmas caroling. And we just had some mutual friends and Atta's first words to me were, Nice harmonies. And I think I was a pretty soul, Right? Which I don't remember, But now it's part of the lore. And he said that that was the moment he was like, I thought our first saying out for dates. That's amazing. Nice harmonies. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Yeah, We grew up in the same little rural town called Wenatchee in Washington, The Northwest. And yeah, It's a, It's a really sweet little place. And it's so cool to have our roots in that, In that same experience of, Of place and the same love of that Valley. It's such a unique spot in the world. And I think we've both traveled pretty extensively for work and just otherwise just for fun. We love traveling. And I always say that I never find a place that is, You know, Way better than Wenatchee. It's just near and dear to my heart. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in our story, Like that's the kind of, You know, The, The moment of actually meeting where we were singing together and, And then we like on our first kind of date date, I didn't think he thought, But we ended up like sharing songs. And, But for me, Like the deeper kind of current was that like life really took me back to my hometown through my dad's passing. And I had been living abroad and, And working in a very different fields and like peace and reconciliation and sustainability work. And, And so my dad's end of life and passing is what brought me back to this hometown, Which I love, But I didn't think that I would, That life would bring me back there. And, You know, There was like my other big relationship in life was ending. And so I was like losing these two very big figures in my life and I was in a lot of grief. And so there was a lot of kind of magic and synchronicity and connection that came from meeting Nathan and these connections we had that like felt woven with my dad. And, And so that has always been really, Really special. And I just, It was like a humbling part of my life. I kind of joke about that. Cause I never thought I'd end up with someone from my hometown, You know, I was like, Be in the world. And, You know, And then it's like her last boyfriend had this, You know, Exotic Irish accent. No. And it's just to say that like how that, That unexpected weaving of your life and what I'm doing now, I, You know, It's just so inextricably linked with the love that we have and the way that our relationship was born and the sort of courage and magic that came from our togetherness to pursue what we're doing in the world now. And so I always like felt like Nathan was a gift from my dad. And, And so that continues to be a deeper part of our story, But music has been there from the beginning with nice harmonies as well. Yeah, I love that. I singing is something that I am decent at. I used to sing in choir in high school and we would travel around the world. Like it was, It was amazing. Like super fun. It was actually cool to be in choir in my high school. Like it was like jocks were in choir. Like it was such a, It was such a unique thing. We had like a really great teacher who'd like made it really cool. And not, Not to say that I wouldn't have been in if it wasn't cool, But I tend to want to be around the cool kids. So yeah, It was such, It was so special memories. And I've, I've just recently joined like a little singing group here where I'm at now. And it's something that I just genuinely, You know, I, I love, But I've never been able to find for me using my voices in more of like the speaking and this podcasting and meditations, Like meditations have become, You know, The art that I get to share. I don't sing. I was a singer in a band, But that's always been my thing. Like I was never, I dabble a little bit on some, On some instruments, But singing was always like this thing. I love wordplay. I love through me like a melody right now I can like rhyme or not even rhyme or I like actually improv riffing on an actual melody because it gives me time to think I can think a little bit like a fast flow. Yes. So yeah, Just kind of reflecting that like, You know, Part of part of, Yeah, Love seeing other choir, Choir kids, Like bringing their art now to the world late, You know, Years later, Because it's such a special time to be doing that in high school. And so often it's just, It's just dropped. Yeah, Yeah, Completely. Yeah. You like have this togetherness and unity and you're using your like, The voice is one of the most powerful instruments in the world and we all have it. And it's probably one of, You know, We always kind of say like, It's our best instrument, Like as far as what we do. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Amazingly, We, We both had such a similar experience to you with our choir, With our choir background, With a very, Very charismatic and very cool teacher that, That just like got everybody stoked. And there was all kinds of people, You know, Again, It wasn't just like the nerds, Like you see in some of the TV shows or whatever. But, But we both got to go to Europe early in high school with our choir, Which I think for most high school choirs, That's so cool. Yeah. And so some of our like you know, I grew up in church. So music has this kind of deeply spiritual place in my heart anyway, But singing in cathedrals in high school as transcendental, It is unbelievable, Expanding experiences. I'm getting chills because that was, Yeah, That's what we did to like, We toured Italy and Austria and got to sing in all these cathedrals. Like there's nothing, There's like nothing like that. Yeah, It's like, Yeah. And then I go, I think back to the moments, There was a song we would sing that sticks out called sing me to heaven. And it was like this kind of ethereal. And, You know, As a 16 year old, And I'll be honest too, Like as a 16 year old, We were going on these trips and I just couldn't wait to go like, You know, Party too, Because we're 16 in Europe. And like, Yeah, That was also like a big focus. But part of me wants to go back and like smack my 16 year old self. I'm like, Dude, This is like so amazing. And I knew it, I knew it at a time like, You know, Those those moments were so like sacred, But I wouldn't have used that word back then. But yeah, Such a special, Special experience. It's really cool that we we share that. Yeah, So awesome. And then the fun thing is that, Because we have the same choir teacher, But different years, Because we didn't go to school at the same time, Babysitter, You know, And 15 years old. Yeah, That friend was in choir with me who babysat him. But because of me and my family, Who's better from Poland, Where we are right now, Where we are right now, Nathan's choir went to Poland because my grandparents had come. And so they created this connection. And like, So before we met, My grandparents, Like bought treats to their, You know, Choir when they were in Poland. And just one of those funny things. He like, Got a tattoo of like the Polish crest and from his time, And then we, You know, Now we're together. And it's such a big part of our lives. So just all of that. It's so beautiful, Like these threads that are perhaps weave and that are so much more than we could dream up. So amazing. Do you guys know Eric Whittaker by any chance? Oh, Yeah. Yeah. We sang Eric Whittaker a few songs. Oh, My God. So good. Yeah. So good. It's choir music that you that I would still like. Still listen to it. You know, I still listen to it. Yeah. Sorry, Folks. We're just geeking out on choir stuff. I mean, Like, What the hell is not helpful at all for me. But that's why I want to have this podcast. Okay. You know what, Though, Lou, I'll segue this because I can say what is applicable to everyone out there listening is that, Okay, So all of us, We like had this experience of a deep centeredness and passion and a voice that we had to share. And somewhere along the way, I mean, For me, I know, Like I've had limiting beliefs about pursuing music for just since back then. I think back then I thought like, Oh, I'm too old or something that's like so insane. And so kind of that journey of like, Moving away from what maybe feels truly aligned and authentic and real for us. And somehow we get convinced that like, We're not worthy to pursue that or that there's not a place for us or that we've missed the boat or whatever. Like for us, We've had different steps along our journey. Like the first step was, You know, Falling in love and and becoming together. But then at a certain point in our journey, We, We decided to work together. And it was a really courageous leap where we traveled the world for two years. And we kind of paired up his skill sets and my skill sets. And we did like visual storytelling, Videography for different changemakers and nonprofits around the world. But on like a trade, Like on a gift economy kind of basis. So it was very unique and so different and allowed us to have these just incredible life experiences, But it was a huge leap of faith to kind of leave what seemed like the tracks that we were on. And like the, The kind of curve in that was like along the way we would, We would sing, You know, At the campfire at the event that we were filming, Or we would have an experience of, You know, Someone else being there, Like meeting some people that were in the sound healing space and having that exposure. And people would reflect back to us, Like, Like the videos are great and all, But why don't you, There's something here, Like with music and with singing, Like, Why aren't you guys pursuing that? And so at the end of that whole journey of doing that work, It's like, We came home and we had this amazing portfolio, Like better than we could have ever built at home with just such inspiring projects and gorgeous. And it was like, Oh, We could start a video production company. But that was like the moment of internal looking of, Is that what we, Is that what we want to do? Do we want to have that? And facing our own limiting beliefs and, And then that courageous shift towards like, You know, We're not going to regret having tried this. Hmm. I want to get back to what happens after you try it. But I'm curious at just the actual, I think there's something to learn here in, Okay, Bold to go out to year just like travel and do these storytelling events. But how do you, There's one thing to like, Do that. But how do you actually get the opportunity to do that? Because it's like, Some people can be like, Who the hell are you guys? Like, I'm not gonna kind of have you come into my company. Like, You know, Even if you're doing it on a barter, Like even, You know, Just even getting those opportunities, Like, Is it, Is it, Was it your connections that you had through, You know, Past work or you just cold emailing and like setting up tours and, You know, Figuring that out? Because I think it was mostly connections, Like I had come. So that moment before my dad passed away, I was getting a master's in Sweden and it was in like sustainability and leadership. And so a lot of the people from that program are from different parts of the world and they're doing, They're doing really meaningful work. And so it was kind of, You know, One connection from someone that had been in the program another year that was in Costa Rica. And we were going to be in Costa Rica, Getting connected with him, Who then introduces us to someone else and that we resonate with. And then that opened up an opportunity there. And then we met Adam and it went, So I think it's like, Yeah, By first like leveraging the first step, You know, I think that there's something here that in this conversation where there's, There's something when you leave room for emergence, When you don't overplan it, When you step courageously just into that, That first step, So much follows that energy, The courage that you, That you step into that with. And then when you show up for what that is, You know, It creates more opportunities. I think so often we want to have that clear, You know, Like rock solid five-year plan or whatever. And especially in, In, You know, Entrepreneurship, You know, What's, What's, What are the steps I'm going to take? What's my plan? What's my business model? What's my funnel? And these things are wonderful things, You know, Strategy is important, But at some point you have to just take the leap and, And see what comes. And there's so much of the process that is just, That's really unlearning. I would say that that's been a huge part of our journey in learning to work together as a couple in deciding what it is that we're, You know, Actually deconstructing what it is the work that is ours to do and redefining that again and again. Yeah. So I think that there is something really important about that, That, That collaborative nature of the work, You know, Whatever this is of, Of showing up, Of, Of using your voice, Of sharing your talent because, Because we need we need life to respond, You know, Life has to respond. It's like a conversation, You know, You don't get to just like, Is it life isn't a talk. You don't get up and just like, Give your speech to everybody and they all clap at the end. You know, I wish it was like that. Yeah. I try to make it like that doesn't work out. I love, I love this line that you kind of just dropped in that, That I think is just a profound, Like the way that my mind goes, It's like, Oh, There's a meditation. I could see like the title, There's a meditation in this, But like leaving room for emergence. I think that's just like a really beautiful reflection to think about, Like, You know, Where in my life am I leaving? Am I leaving room for emergence? Or am I so hardened and trying to force and control and I need things to be like this? And what if I left? Because that's where the breakthroughs happen. That's where really, Like, That's where big shifts and just mystery and magic and beauty happen in that emergence. So I just, Yeah, I just want to double click on that, On that line that you shared. Yeah, You, You've got me thinking about something that came up for me this last week, That I think is really relevant to this conversation. I love how you started this, Like basically asking like, Who are you to do that? Which is so great, You know, Because I think so many of us are asking ourselves this question all the time. Who am I to do this? Like who's going to want this? And the, The thing for me that came up earlier for me this week is, Is we're developing some, You know, It's, It's a big, It's a big, It's our methodology is not just like a light thing. I've been basically redesigning and reinterpreting the I Ching, Which we can get into. It's, It's a, It's a whole thing. It's all connected to our music and it's, It's a wonderful thing. It's been like a five-year project, But I found myself just the other day asking myself, Yeah, Let's say, I found myself asking this very question the other day, Just we're, We're driving back from visiting her grandma who's in hospice right now. So it's a tender time and it's a lot of just introspection and, And contemplating life and, And these, These extremes. And I just was kind of wondering, Like, Who am I to do this? You know, To think that I can create something, You know, And this could be anything. And the answer that came back to me was, Was really profound. It was essentially that like, I'm the to do it because I'm the one that's willing. I think that's honestly like 99% of it. Like, No, I'm not potentially the perfect vessel, You know, Quote unquote for this, But life doesn't look for perfect vessels. Life looks for willingness and it rewards willingness. And if you are, Are willing to step again and again, You know, Into the practice, Into the, Into the, Um, The unknown, Um, To apply yourself, To ask again when you don't know, Uh, And to listen for that, For that answer to come back. That's, That's what makes you qualified for the job. That's it. That's all you need. Hear, Hear on all of that. And I had to take a moment to, To, To understand what you meant. Like, I didn't catch when you said, Like, I was asking you, Who are you to do this? But my tone was not that, That was totally not, That was totally not, Not the undertone of that question by any mean. I know, I know, But I know that that wasn't your intention, But you know, Like, I just, It's a question. No, For sure. Everyone's asking that question. Who am I to do this? Um, And what you pointed to is, I love this Seth Godin line of like, He talks about imposter syndrome and he kind of just says like, Hey, You know what, You got, You're probably not the best at this and you're, There's probably other people who can do it better. Okay. That doesn't mean that you should still do it. Cause right now you're the person to do it in this way. And for this person, And that's how you get better. So it's like letting go of like, Who am I? I don't have that. You know, I've, I've been pretty much a renegade in so many ways my whole life. So I, I just honor like the, The getting out there and, And figuring it out on the way and being willing the willingness. I love that so much, Right? The fact that you're willing is the fact that you've been called to do it and, And who are you not to like, Just try, See what happens. And yet we get, We get scared and we question along the journey. And I know for myself in this path of, Of kind of saying that we're stepping into music, That we're stepping into this healing space, This space of mindfulness and contemplation and like blending these worlds that ended up being, I remember when we started, I was like, Oh, This is, You know, So, So unique because it's like, We're doing sound healing, But we're singing original songs and mantras and we're writing, Like we're going through all these movements. And, And then I think like our first album, I was thinking like, Oh, Maybe, You know, Something's gonna totally see this, How unique this is. But then in a way it didn't fit into any good box because some people's expectations of sound healing music is like only bowls or no singing, No words. And that like can trigger people or, Or they think of mantra and they think of Sanskrit mantra. And so this is, You know, Like make, So it was kind of interesting. So there's this uniqueness and then like continuing to trust what's yours and what is your unique offering when you're kind of seeing out there that you're maybe not fitting in the box, Or maybe it doesn't like bring this opportunity that you hope for. And then questioning what you're doing and how you're going to make it work. And I know for myself, This like divergence and convergence and moving between trust and surrender and like cultivating faith, That is the journey that I'm on right now. And I feel like when we started, There was such a leap of faith and we have this just totally magical, I think about the moment when we did our first tour and we bought this van because we couldn't fit all our instruments. And, And we were totally making it up. Some was like living room concerts, Some were like first yoga studios. Some was like this friend connected us to this new meditation center that's opening. And so we're sleeping on a mattress in the back of the van. It's freaking cold. It's so cold and insulation wasn't in there yet. And, But we are on this journey. And at one point we met this man who was a luthier, A guitar maker, And he's showing us these like insanely beautiful handmade guitars. And we're telling him kind of about what we're doing. We had just shared our music. And at one point he comes in, We share two songs that we had written one about when I wrote after my dad died. So it was like about my dad and one that Nathan wrote after his parents' divorce. So they're like really meaningful songs to us. And he, Strong, Strong parent vibes, Strong parent vibes. And so he, At one point, He brings out this other guitar that he shows us and he says, Oh, This is a real, This is an older handmade guitar from like the eighties. And the story is that the, The, There was only like a few owners and the man that got it, His father was passing and he wanted to write a song for his father. And that was like the only reason he got this guitar. Anyway, He wrote the song for his dad, Wrote the song for his dad. It was like the function, The use of the guitar. And he sat in the closet until he meets this luthier. And he says to this luthier, Will you find this guitar home? He meets us. We're on our first tour. We're just like taking this risk and he gifts it to us. And we were like, Wow, That's so beautiful. And so it happens that the person that he got the guitar from is a pretty famous author named Gary Zukav who happened to be, Who happened to live on our route of this tour on our way home. And so, You know, We asked him to thank him and then he invites us to his home and him and his wife, Like totally were such mentor, Beautiful human beings, Welcomed us to stay. We played music. The lyrics to his dad's song were in the guitar case that he hadn't seen for like 20 years. Anyway, All I'm saying. He finds a tape of it and I helped digitize it, Digitize it. Not only that next year on another tour, We sleuth out the freaking guitar maker who happens to be in the same town that we're in as we played that night. And he's like, I'm sorry, I'm not in my home. I happen to be in this town. And we're like, We're in this town. So 15 minutes later, We're like having a beer with them. Yeah. It was unreal. So, So what I'm saying is that like, There is synchronicity and there are breadcrumbs and there are signs. And if we're, When we have our heart open, Like, It's like this rising up to meet us. And then at some point for me, Lou, I started feeling real, Like, So we keep pursuing it. And at some point I feel like we suck and I don't know how this is going to work. And I'm, I just feel it's all like, Where are the breadcrumbs? Where are the breadcrumbs? Like, I'm trying to figure this out so hard, You know, And I forget that there's like magic. I forget like surrender to have like faith in what we're doing. And I share that because it's just been a part of the journey of like doubt and then cultivating faith and feeling like, I don't know what we're doing and we're probably not very good at this. And I'm looking at all these other people that seem like they're succeeding and got all the money and more plays and whatever and questioning. And then, Yeah, Like showing up so much on Insight Timer and also feeling like, Should we be doing this? Like so dedicated here. And then right when I feel like maybe we shouldn't show up here anymore, They like invite us to be part of a challenge. And it was like, Life being like, Oh, Someone, Someone does see you. So that was just a big like to say, Synchronicity, Openness, Faith, But fear also and doubt and what am I doing? And how is this going to work out? And can I know? Like, Can you tell me? Wow. Yeah. Oh, That's so beautiful. That's an amazing story. Like to be at Gary Zukav's house and use his guitar. You know, I'm sure a lot of people know him. He's kind of an older, I would say he's more of an older G, I guess, In like his authorship. But you know, There's so many things in there that spark something in me, Like just the moments, Just those little breadcrumbs how enlivening they could be. It's like those little notes from the universe of like, Okay, Yes, I just, Okay, Something's working. This is right. Like, I know this is right. There's no way that else this would happen if this is right, And then I have to keep going. And then, Okay, There's moments of elation and like creation. And then yeah, Doubt. And like, What the hell? Am I even any good? And I feel like I've been, I've been in that doubt spiral the last couple months. Like, It's been interesting to be in that space again of like, I don't even know if this like any of this work, Like, I don't know if this is any good anymore. Like, I think I feel like I had my time. And now it's like, I've lost my time, Or I've lost my energy. And it's, And it's interesting. It's interesting to notice like, Moments of feeling so, Yes, And then moments of feeling like, What the fuck? Like, This is like, What's going on here? Like, I'm loose. It's like, Things are slipping through my fingers, Like the sand is what's what's going on. And I know there's a deep faith, Like a deep faith that this is how we learn. It's like those cycles of expansion and contraction that they only open up to newer opportunities. Yeah, And so I just I get really jealous toward the people that get on the challenges on inside timer. No, Just kidding. I mean, Fair. Like, It's so celebrating. Yeah, Two of my friends got on the recent one. And I'm just like, I genuinely, I have this in some way, It can feel martyrish in a weird way. It's like, I just want other people like, Like, I would die for other people's success. Like, It's a weird energy that I don't know if it's there's some ego in it in some ways. But I just I get, I really do get a lot of joy. It's been a big work for me around jealousy and envy and like really, Truly rooting for people in like the deepest, Purest way is like your success is my success. So anyway, Tangent on that, But just just a beautiful story. And okay, So tell me about you go on this tour, Like, Are you even making any money? Like, Are you making like, How you know you find inside? How do you find inside time? It's always a fun story of finding inside time. Like, Well, Okay, The pandemic is the art and business of meditation. So any any numbers are always I think people like hearing like, Oh, Okay, You did this for this one. And yeah, I was making $50 a month. And I was, You know, So whatever you feel comfortable with. Well, I think, You know, Something that so for us, We were we're sharing music, And we're creating these immersive musical experiences. And we primarily started off doing that live. And we would collaborate and reach out to yoga studios. And there's kind of an industry rate around that where the person offering something takes a percentage and the studio keeps the percentage. It's usually a 70 30, 30. If you're wondering, And yeah, And or you're, You know, I 5050 split with your $35 30 or $45 type of sound healing. Yeah, I got that. Yeah, But it's a conversation. And, And, You know, When we started off, Sometimes we would like, Well, Like one time we, You know, Drove however far away two and a half hours away, And there were five people there and you're like, Oh, Right. But those people have been, They were so blown away. Like, We have this one woman, Like, She wouldn't miss us, Like, If such a super fan to the core. So another lesson and just like, You never know. But I think that built for us over time. And we started running retreats. And, And so that was kind of mostly we're making it from live events. And then the pandemic happened. So we were definitely in the artist, Artists impacted by that. And so that's really where we kind of forced us online, Which actually was a bit of a blessing, Because I think I think we were caught in that cycle of like, The only way we make money is when we're on the road. So we have to just figure out how to be on the road more often. Which is just, It's a hustle, You know, And it was never really what we wanted to be doing. And we wanted to have a little bit wider reach. But we didn't really have the courage to switch over to that, That digital, Or I don't know, We didn't make the time. I'm not really sure exactly what it was. I think there's just more limiting beliefs. And, You know, Yeah, And you get kind of caught on the way that you're doing things. And so the pandemic was, It was a blessing in disguise for us in that small, In that small way. Yeah. And I would say that we're fortunate because of the video background, Sound background. We already had a lot of like technical side, Technical skills. We still use all of our video all the time, But not just for us, Which is awesome. Yeah. And I would say like economically, As we were like pursuing this, Like we were still taking on video work. So there's, We've been trying to just do like, As we grow here, We're doing less of that. But of course, Sometimes we still do that to, You know, Support ourselves. But the, That online piece, Insight Timer definitely was found through a friend that was encouraging us. He was like Costa Rican friend who we love and adore. And we had started doing lives, I think, With the pandemic just as a supportive structure. And then he was like, Oh, This meditation app just started a live feature. Like you guys would be so great at that if you want to check it out. And so I think we joined at the Insight Timer at the end of 2020. And then we ended up, Our first live was Martin Luther King Jr. Day in 2021. And we've been doing them almost weekly for the past, You know, Four years. So it's been a, It's been a real commitment and like, It's, It's been powerful for us to be so committed to showing them and what has come from that. Yeah, For anyone that's listening that hasn't been on your live, I mean, You heard Christopher Plowman on this podcast, Give a shout out to your live events. And I finally, I don't go to, I really don't look at, I don't really go on many lives. But I was able to catch yours. And I was like, Work, I was actually working, I think, On my own live event, Like preparing, I was listening to you guys. And wow, Like it was another level of a live event experience. And just like your production, The sound that just the whole thing was like, I get it. Like, This is no joke. And yeah, If you haven't experienced it, Please go, Go do what an offering that you're offering. And I heard you say also, Should we be doing this? And you know, Is that coming from like, Is, You know, You know, Just the lack of donations or lack of like, Financial like, Actually, Yeah, Yeah, It's, That's a that's a challenging, Challenging one for sure. It's not, It's not really 2021 anymore with Yeah, And we and we like toward artists that are struggling, Waned a little bit. Yes. But that was a pretty, Like, Amazing time for us from the, From the business side to at see some potential in that, Like, We would work so hard and pack up all of our stuff and so much energy to do a live in person event. And then someone in Chicago, Like asked us to do an event for their, Like a community group that they were a part of. And they paid us like, More than we would make at a live event, Like double what we make it a live event. And I was like, Whoa, And we got to just keep our setup there. So that was a, A cool sort of opening of possibility to the possibility of that. And it's of course been like, How you actually grow that. But Insight Timer has been the place for us where we've grown the most and we've developed the most community. And I think it's because that's the, That's what's been nurtured there. And you know, That's an audience that is showing up to do that inner work. And you'll find people that will resonate with you. Totally. Yeah, I can see you guys like having, Finding the right companies that that would be interested in having you in as like an, Like an experience for their, You know, Beginning of their conference or whatnot. And that's obviously can be at a much higher premium price than especially with your travel and your equipment. Like the equipment adds a whole nother layer to this aspect. But yeah, Figuring out that as a sustainable thing and continuing to market that it's a whole separate side of like business and marketing and development. Yeah. So I'd love to hear about, You know, You mentioned the framework and like the, The I Ching and bringing in these different tools, IFS and some of the work you're doing, Like, How are you thinking about this? What's the process? What's it look like? Very? Yeah. Do you guys know? I mean, You guys are into this stuff. So do you guys know your human design by any chance? We're both manifesting generators. That's what I know. Interesting. Okay. I'm always curious. And like, There's the, There's the throat aspect of singing, Because I'm a manifester and the whole, The whole thing is like connection to your throat. So you have connection to your throat, But with more energy than I have. So it's this whole, I don't want to get into the rabbit hole. I know nothing really about it. I mean, I know enough to like, Say a few things about it, But it's always curious when I hear like singers and voice, Because there's something that's, There's an, There's something with the throat there. So anyway, Yeah, I'd love to hear about the, Because I know the I Ching is also influenced in like gene keys. Like there's all these weird, Wacky, Wacky, Like typologies out there. Totally. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Totally. I think to, Yeah, To ground that in, In our work, I would say that one of the things that we found right away when we started sharing music and something that we knew, You know, The is rooted in like our own experience of music. And the reason that we do it is that it brings up a lot. It, It, It opens us up to connect to a part of ourselves, Parts of ourselves, Emotions, Beliefs old memories, Imagination, Possibility, Hopes, Dreams. There's so much that comes up when we hear music and it's almost like the language of emotion we often say. And, But, But the emotion is kind of the tip of the iceberg, Right? Like when we play sound baths, This is just kind of a funny thing for anyone out there that does sound baths in your audience or that has been to one. It's so different than a concert because people are, People are lying down and they're not responding at all. And so they're not giving you any feedback. They're not, They're not looking at you like nodding and smiling and yeah. Yeah. So that imposter syndrome comes up almost, Almost during every event. It's like, Oh my gosh, Everybody hates this. And until you see somebody sobbing and then you're like, Yes, It's working. Yes. Yeah. So there is something about music that just pulls a level of, Of authenticity, A level of vulnerability out of us that is, Um, That's unique. And I think for myself, I've just been kind of pulling the thread and going, What is that about? You know, Why, What, What is that? And why, Why is that maybe helpful? You know, And there's, You kind of look into the world of psychology and you kind of, And you, You hear a lot of things about, Um, The power of emotion and how we need to feel and how feeling is powerful for healing. But then, You know, There's the kind of mixed reviews on whether catharsis is like good unto itself. Like, Do we just like, Feel it really hard? Do you scream into the pillow and, You know, And like fight the punching bag with your anger? Does that like help? Or is it actually just enraging the stuff more? So there's, There's lots of different viewpoints on that. Um, Yeah, Yes. Uh, I've heard it called like trauma porn, Right? Like it feels good, But it's like not actually like, You know, It's not actually getting to the essence of it. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. I've never heard that term. Oh man. Yeah. That's that's yeah. It's apropos. Um, The, Uh, So I think the, The journey of developing this stuff has come from a deep question of, Of what is it that is happening for people? Um, What are these elements that are stirring around in people as they enter into it? And what is the value of it? Um, Because I don't know that just feeling it is necessarily transformative. You know, It might be, It might be a mountain, A peak experience. You know, We have people coming away from our events. I remember early on, You know, We're kind of wondering like, What are we doing? Is this like good? And people will come up to us and go, That was the most profound experience I've ever had in my life. And you're like, What? Like, I mean, I want to like, Believe in myself and celebrate and go like, Of course it is because like, We're the best, But honestly, It's just like, Oh my God. Wow. I know that, That, That our content are, Are what we create is good. And I believe in it, But like, I don't expect someone to have the most powerful experience of their life in our event. And so I know that there's something happening, Um, Deeper, You know, In, Within that person, Um, In that space between us, In that emergent space that we open up together. Um, And knowing what that is so that we can help other people, Um, We can call other people into that experience, I think is really important to me because I don't know that if it's just enough to go to your sound bath every week and bawl your eyes out and then like, Get back into the grind of things. Um, Yeah. So it's, It's just been this process of kind of trying to understand the integration part. It's like, If you were to take us in like a plant medicine, You know, Frame of like, If you do plant medicine, Like, You know, Having the space to actually like integrate, Yeah, You have the experience is profound. It might be healing, But like, Okay, What do I do with it? How do I, How do I bridge this? How do I keep working with this in my life? So it's like just giving the whole package of, Of maybe preparation and integration potentially could be there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, That's the goal. And so, Um, You know, Part of this just kind of emergent process has just been pulling the string of this and trying to understand it. And I've found as, As I started naming some of the aspects of our work, What was coming up for people, Beliefs and hopes and emotion and, Um, Expression and, Uh, Discernment, I started finding that there were these, I was studying the eaching as well. And there are these like odd echoes of what I was exploring and what was coming up for people in our work and what the symbolism of these trigrams and the eaching. And I just, You know, I kind of got hooked at that point. And now I'm kind of redesigning the whole eaching to fit this, You know, Much like some of these other people that have used it, Because I think it is a powerful muse because it's a, It's a powerful, Um, Tool and I don't really want, I mean, We can nerd out on it for sure, But I think for me, The heart of it is that what comes up for people is vulnerable. And I think one of the things that music has the power to do is to invite us into vulnerability. I think that's something that some of my favorite meditation teachers do as well, Is they invite us into a more honest look at ourselves and at our inner world. And, But we, What is vulnerability for, Right? You know, Like, Again, It comes back to that question I had, Are we just here to like feel harder? Or, Or is there something that we're working toward and how to, What is that relationship between those things? And so there, There are these trans personal experiences is how I think of them, Um, That we can have in meditation, That we can have in music that, That pull us out of that small frame of who we think we are, Of what we think we're all about and into this larger experience of self that expands to hold more. And we all kind of have our own words for that. We have our own experience of that. I think probably everyone in your audience knows what I'm talking about, But then there's also the spiritual truth on the other hand, Which is that we are enough as we are, That we are like, I am this kind of closed circuit being that is like, That is, Doesn't have to do anything to, To be authentic, More authentic than I am because I am. And I, My relationships are enough as they are. And the, My experience of life could be enough as it is. And these are all things that we practice in meditation, But that's kind of different than the messy reality of life. When we get pulled out of that truth or pulled between these equal paradoxical truths is that that is true. And I am a part of something so much bigger than I can imagine. I'm a part of a family which has hurts and has pains and, And that has hurt me. And that opens up new parts of me that, That, You know, I, That I maybe wasn't aware of before. And so much of that stuff is what comes up in a sound bath and a meditation. It's that, It's that memory, You know, Like developmentally, We, We start thinking that we're the same as our mom. We technically are biologically the same as our mom. We start to learn who we are. And eventually we learn that we aren't the only thing that our moms pay attention to. And we might not even be the most important things that our moms pay attention to. And that is this like breaking open moment that I think is vital to being a human being. And so how do we, How do we hold this paradox between being spiritually enough as we are and being parts of something that is so much bigger than what we are and that breaks us open that breaks open that those closed loops of enoughness to recognize that I'm also a part of something that is humblingly small. Beautiful, Beautiful. Yeah. So much. Yeah. So much truth and beauty. Do you feel like that's, Is that coming? Like if I was going to listen to this and be like, Oh, I want what Nathan's saying, Like, Like, Give me some, Some of that. Like, I get that. I resonate with that. Like, Is that, Is it like, Oh, After a sound bath, You offer, You know, A coaching package or something? Like, How is this being, How is this being mapped out in the overall, Like, Like where you see this landing or is it a course? Yeah. Yeah. I think it, It comes back to this, Um, This question of emergence. Um, One of the things that I've, You know, I'm, I'm a brainy guy and I like to think about things and I like to have, Um, Understanding. And so I've imagined many expressions of this in, In, You know, Kind of a teaching format of like, Oh, You're going to learn all these concepts and those concepts are going to help you in your life. I think the more I, I, Uh, Concept in my life, I realized like how marginally valuable that is and actually transforming myself. Um, And it's, But it's fun and I love doing it. So I'm going to keep doing it. It's like something that I just brings me so much joy. So this emergence aspect, I think is the thing that I'm most interested in. And this is kind of the theme that we've been exploring so much in this conversation. And so I think that's the thing that the I Ching offers a beautiful foundation for is, Um, It's a framework that you can apply a lot of concepts to, You know, It's, There's all these pieces and meanings and elements that all come together, Uh, That, That you can toss some coins and basically inquire into life, You know, For a different perspective than maybe you had in your own mind. So you can just get to shake it up and we get to start, Step into that conversational aspect of life to not get so caught on what we think we need and want and the way that we think it should be and actually ask life, Like, Yo, What do you think? You know, Kind of like look in that proverbial mirror and see what comes back to us. And there's so many systems that are really good at that. And, Um, And I, And I believe that ours is also going to be very, It is very good at that. Um, And we are just starting actually to open up some private sessions to be able to do readings cause I'm kind of still, I'm in entering into the prototyping phase with it. So. Yeah, We prototyped on our, Our last retreat we had, Where we kind of developed a whole book and that people were each working with individually. We would do sound baths in the evening and then throughout the day, People were kind of working with our first iteration of it. Um, And we've been asking ourselves, What's the right container, Like, Do we do a group thing with group program that people might like to be learning together? Or now we're a little bit at like maybe individuals and getting their feedback and trying to understand and evolve more, Um, Is maybe the next step, But it's kind of something that is emerging out of this practice of our particular style of sound bath meditation and to really help you to deepen that listening practice that we're doing through the music and to be in that relationship with yourself and with life. Um, So that you can feel that awakening that is there for all of us when we take the time to show up with our, With our full presence, With our curiosity. And that's what we're doing when we go into listen, You know, You don't know what's coming, You don't know how it'll meet you, But that openness to see what comes that willingness to feel the swell that is grief or to feel the delight that comes or to like notice how it interacts with your own life. Like, Wow, That lyric, That mantra like fortified me, Or it, It made me go, Whoa, That's a ping on something that like hurts what's there. It's this awakening to, To that. And why do we do any of this, Our meditation practice? Like so that we can then show up more fully that we can create, We can be those empowered people in the world. Like the play on words with our name is like wakes, You know, There's this question, Like what wakes you up to life, The awakening that's possible for all of us, But also the wakes that we get to leave through our, Through what we create. And that like, We each have that beautiful, Beautiful, Unique fingerprint, Nothing else in the galaxy, Like you quality that if we can have that courage to listen within and to all these practices that we show all the teachers we interact with that are our guides to help us be in that relationship with ourselves and with life, Then you just have people awakening more to what is theirs to do, To have the courage to take the leap. And that's what this community, Your community is about people that are like feeling that sense. They're sensing they're listening. They're saying, Oh, How can I find my people and, And share what's mine to share? Hmm. Amen. Yeah. Beautiful. So good. So many good nuggets in this. Is there anything that we didn't chat about? I know we're coming up on time. I'm also open to chat a little bit longer, But anything that feels like it's emerging in the field right now, That's wanting to be shared. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that I speaking to your audience, Which is so many meditation guides and teachers and leaders of people who are interested in helping people awaken interested in calling people into that, That more full embodied, Secure expression of themselves. There's, I think the more that I learn and a core aspect of, Of our work and our methodology, The wakes way is recognizing that I think our, Our job when it comes to relationship, When it comes to teaching is to give the, You know, We have authority, Right? Each of us as a, As a teacher, As someone showing up to say, I have something to say, You know, You make your video or you show up on a live event on insight timer, Or you make your meditation. The power of authority is in its ability to, Is in our capacity to be able to hand it off to the other person, To be able to say, I give you the authority to answer this question yourself. And that's where you get these, These powerful traditions, Like Zen koans where, You know, The student comes and asks something. And the teacher says some nonsense that nobody can really understand, But inspires, Hopefully that Satori moment that, That, That realization that can only come from within us. It can't be transferred like cash or like goods in a transaction. And, And so I think that that's for me, Something that, That is coming up when I think about, You know, The people that are listening to this, That, That we, As we step into this emergent exchange with life, As we step into this emergent exchange with our audiences, We get the opportunity to hand that authority back to people, To, To, To give them the permission to know for themselves what it is that they want to know. Yeah. So powerful. And that worthiness, Like, Oh, I think about like when we, When we merge this place of a passion and purpose and work and how we try to like create a livelihood and, And support ourselves, It can get feeling tricky sometimes, And then layer in the, Like spiritual space and, And they're like all sorts of other stuff comes up there. So, But, But I think like there will be moments and there are so many moments where we don't know, We will never know the ripples, The wakes that we make. And sometimes we, Before we do something, We want to be so certain that we can have some outcome, But that's, That's not how it works. Like there will be moments when you start and you don't, You barely have any listens and you don't know how it's, You know, What it's going to do or what it could become, But then it does go out. And sometime you'll have something that, That thing that reminds you like, Oh, Someone reached out and they said, This deeply changed me, Or this helped me so much, Or this helped me heal my relationship with my ex-partner or things that have like receive them. And as they come into you to, To remind you that what you're doing is important and meaningful. And even if you don't always see back, There's so much more unseen happening. And I say that as much for myself, Because I can get tripped out and like, Feel like, You know, Does it matter? And like, I can really honestly like ask that question. And, And the truth is the meaning and the impact that we, Like, Doesn't it, If you impact, If you truly impact someone, Like if we can pull that into ourselves, Can that help us to, To remember how worthy we are to have done it in the first place, To have done it at all. And just so much fear holds us back. And, And I still negotiate that with myself, But it's just to say that we are all worthy of sharing of ourselves and that we can't control how it goes, But it will be more than you could imagine, Have imagined for yourself. And that's what I try to remind myself that, You know, When I go like, Lou, Like I could trip out, You know, When Insight Timered, We never did a course, We missed the whole course payday. We just basically like have been doing lives for, You know, Four and a half years and that's awesome. And we've built, I think that that has helped us to create a really meaningful community. And as newer teachers has helped us grow in a way that I would encourage other teachers to do, Because that is a way for you to like find people and meet people. Where am I going? Where am I going? I mean, What I'm hearing you say a lot of yeah, I mean, First, I'll say like the fact that you are getting 300 people on lives, You know, That's not a, That's no small, That's no small feat in this day and age of Insight Timer. So like, You're obviously doing something really, Really special. And you've built that community. So 100%. But I think what I'm really taking from this is, Yeah, Those hearing those moments of you made an impact or the thing that you put out to change someone. And to know that there's probably a some made up math equation, Like for every one person that gives you that there's probably 10 that impacted it just didn't take the time to like respond, Right? They just didn't respond to the email, They didn't make comments, Or they're just like lurking, Right? They're lurking on, They're on the thing. They're just they're not someone to do that. Or maybe it's just, But there are taking a lot from it. And it's hard. And those, You know, Having those people give those little nuggets of validation that we need the validation, But it is so rewarding to be like, Okay, Something's working, Something's helping. And to really just let those, You know, There's people that say like, Make a little board if you're newer, Like every time you get one of these, Like have a little word doc, Or I've heard people say like, Make a private page where only you can see it. And you just have all these like notes from people or, You know, Posts that remind you like, Okay, Because it is gonna be moments of like, Is what is this even matter, Right? I have it with a podcast, You know, This podcast, You know, You can talk to you guys about like, You know, My two episodes before this will come out. It's like, Guys, I don't think there's I've done this for two years. There's, You know, I got 80 listens, 80 to 100 listens an episode, Like, Is this the best use of my time, Like genuinely asking myself, Like, Is this the best use of my time? And you question like you doubt like of like, Is this reaching out to people, But I do have people, You know, Send me messages, I found your podcast, I've been to it all. And I found this. So those, Those mean so much. So if you ever send those, If you've sent those before, Thank you so much, Because they do mean a lot in like, Just the continuing of nurturing of figuring out whatever, Whatever your journey is. It also forces you to like, Come back to the thing that you would do, Even if it would fail, Like, I'm a big believer in that question, Like, What's worth doing? You know, What's worth, What's fulfilling in its own sake for you. And then often that's that energy is felt by others. And you end up being, You know, Wildly more successful because you're doing it for you rather than for the audience wants. Yeah, That surrendered place. I think I remember where I was going in the sense of this evaluating judging mind that, Oh, You know, We missed the court, Like we never made a course. And instead of that feeling like something wrong, Or, You know, That we missed something or that, Instead of that, It's like we were we were right where we needed to be like, This is we've everything's been growing into this expression of ourselves now and, And really helping ourselves to, To come back to the truth of that, Of like being in the river and in the emergence and like, Re-nurturing trust, Because there are going to be hooks along the way in this journey of putting yourself out there and sharing your authentic thing. And there'll be hooks that kind of make you go like, And, And, And exploit that part that really, You know, Wants it all worked out. Yes. And the and is in the, It's the thing that like, I am trying to like the S in, In the final S in the wakes process is surrender. And like for all of us here that are showing up offering of our time and our creative energy and asking ourselves, Is it worth it? Lou, Your podcast has meant a lot to me. I've listened to so much of it. And so I can say that as a, As a listener. And I felt so honored when you reached out to us as fellow teachers. But it's just like that surrender that, That it's so much harder. And that's why we practice. It's harder to do than it sounds. It sounds so, So nice. But at the root of that is like, Truly trusting. And when we can do that, That's where we can have the, That when you were saying earlier in the call, Like the sand feels like it's slipping through your fingers. And sometimes we grasp so tight and it feels like it's falling so fast. And there's that, You know, Beautiful story with the open palms where that's how you hold it in your hand. And I don't know, I just, I wish that for ourselves as teachers and as creatives and as people that are, That are trying to make our way in the world with our work and, And hoping and praying that it reaches the right people, You know, That the message reaches people that need it. And it'll never reach anyone if you never do it. Yes. And you never share it. And I really don't want to belittle the 80 that are listening. 80 is not a small number. If I were to walk into an auditorium with 80 people in it, I'd be nervous as hell to give a talk. So I just want to, You know, It's, I want to honor that and honor you listening that it's not, Yeah, It's, I think when you get used to certain numbers, It's an inside timer, Right? Like thousands and the thousands, And then trying to compare it to like this type of success. And it's like, Well, You know, What's driving the next thing. But yeah, I just don't want to minimize that because I, You mentioned, You know, Having five people show up for a sound bath and I would do, I wrote a book, And I would do book talks. And, You know, I've had one person show up, Right? And, You know, I know this many times, Multiple times of like one person or two people show up. I'd rather have no one show up because then it's like not the awkward, You know, One or two. So that's just how we have, That's just moving through that and whatever your capacity is. And you're being, I always talk on this podcast, Like the long game, Like if this is your life's work, Be willing to work for it for life. Like what, What are you trying to make this work in five years, 10 years, Like we got a long life to live. Like we're just, There's lots of years. So staying in it and obviously in doing what you need to make a living, Like that's not to say like needing to figure other things out so that you can keep giving it to your craft and your art and trusting in its own emergence to cap us with our word of the day today. Yeah. Yeah. And allowing yourself to change. I know for myself sometimes that like, I feel like we said that or it feels it can almost feel like something stays stuck in a certain way. And you, You feel nervous about how it'll be received if you change it or, But like letting yourself have that, That more playful kind of, I'm going to try this and I'll try that. And with things like pricing and all that stuff, Like, But like that can be a playful thing too. A hundred percent. Yeah. And we're willing to try. I mean, If you think of just like an app, You know, Hearing like having Christopher Plowman on and how bigger apps do it right there, They're testing pricing on every, All different prices. Yeah. Try this for 20 bucks, Try this 150 bucks. And I'm like, Man, That would feel so weird if I just like had one offer one day for this much. And then to this person, I'm trying at this point, But when I think of that, Like a company, Like, Oh, That actually is how they find what works is by actually testing it. And so it kind of loosened my, Like, Is that out of integrity? Like it's, You know, If I'm in London, I get inside timer for $50 less because you're promoting it here, But that's how, You know, It, It's, That's okay. I don't know. I'm kind of on a tangent on that, But that was like an interesting thing to hear of like, Oh yeah, We can pass different things out. But as a solo person, It's like, Oh, You know, I need to like, Stay on this way. Cause I said this yesterday and yeah, That's a whole separate, Like in conversation around integrity, Around pricing. I think there is some truth to like owning your price, No matter who you're talking to for sure. Yeah. Sidebar. Do you guys have a course? You guys have a course now, Don't you? We don't have a course. I thought I saw you have it. It's not, It's not too late. If you like seeing what could happen. So you're, You're, You're, If you're getting 300 people on a live each week and you do a course, You know, I think Charles Freelie, I just keep using as an example, Just because he's has a breakthrough successful courts. And he's proof that you can get virality on a very long course. And so if you don't have to do it for any of these reasons, You know, I could see you creating some kind of, You know, This kind of really this journey that people can then keep taking with them to build in their own process. And that you can actually share on your live. So I don't think it's too late for anyone listening. And for you guys for courses, Because the algorithm can, It has proven to shoot a course to the sky. And Charles is an amazing example of someone driving because of that. Even with the changes. So yeah. And when you're showing up, You get the opportunity to share that. The thing is, That's funny that like reflects back to me, Lou, About that is noticing our own journey with that of like questioning what we should even do. And should it be our core thing? Or can we just do something more inspired? I think we've sometimes gotten our own heads about like, What's the best thing to do there? And, And so we haven't done it. It's a good example of like, Instead of just kind of being a little bit lighter, Be more playful, A little lighter with it. Yeah, There's held us back from from sharing there in that way. And I would like to break through that. Yeah. Yeah, That is such a dance, Right? It's like, It's like, There's the surrender aspect, And then there's strategy. And we, We have to be able to play between both of those. And those are the S's. We have two S's and wakes in our process. Those are the S's. Yeah, Because, Because we need both. And they're, They're both tools that we have on our belt to, To be able to, To meet life. And, And, But when we get all tangled up in the strategy needing to be so right, Or the change being so scary, Then we kind of get in our own way. Yeah, I have a teacher, Lou, That I, That I'm, That's, I'm in her community. And she's changed the name of the thing that I'm a part of. So many times since I've been a part of it. She's like this, This teacher to me, Where, Where there's a part of me inside that's like, What, Like, How can you do that? You're doing it again. But the energy, The authenticity is there. It's real. She's like allowing herself to change and evolve. And she's sharing that with people. And there's nothing that holds that back except for some weird judgment. But, And so it's a great teacher to that perfectionist part of me that feels like I got to get it right. Or if I said it that way, I can't change it. And like, You know, Just, Yeah, Maybe back to that at the beginning, Like life isn't a talk, You know, This isn't, You're not planning for the one, The one time that you're going to get that one chance to say the one thing that you're saying, Like, It's a conversation, Enter into the conversation.

Reviews

Loved the authentic convo!

Great interview. Thanks so much.

I loved this conversation! It’s really interesting that all of you - Lou, Ada and Nathan - come across as so self assured and so good at what you do and have still had self doubts along the way. Thank you for this discussion, I thought I’d come back and listen in chunks but I listened straight through! ❤️🙏🏻