Compassion In Action | Mindful Q&A W/ Wendy Nash #31

Wendy and I explore how mindfulness fosters a deeper, more engaged form of compassion. We discuss the difference between passive empathy and taking meaningful action, sharing practical insights on integrating compassion into daily life while maintaining balance and self-care. The discussion also highlights societal barriers to compassion and strategies for overcoming them, offering listeners valuable perspectives on making kindness an intentional, sustainable practice.

Transcript

Wholeness.

Hey,

This is Josh.

And today I'm joined with Wendy Nash again for our 31st meditation Q&A called Compassion in Action.

Wendy,

What's going on?

Well,

I'm here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland.

It's wet and tropical.

It's the end of March.

So it's the end of summer for us and coming into autumn.

So it's yeah,

We noticed the rain.

We've had monsoons.

So that's how we are.

Wow.

Well,

We had a cyclone between the last time I saw you and today.

So monsoons,

Nothing.

Wow.

It's wild here in Denmark.

The weather is fairly mild and stable,

You know,

And we're getting out of winter and into spring here.

So yeah,

It's either usually overcast or sunny and temperature stable.

But all right.

Today I have in this 31st installment of the ongoing series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion,

We plan to go into formal compassion practice and how it can help with demonstrating compassion in daily life.

So I think where ought we start with this?

One of the things I think might be helpful is what do we mean by compassion to begin with?

I know there's some kind of disagreement on what this even is.

I think most of us know intuitively kind of what it is,

But I wonder if help giving language and wording to it might help,

Not just in our conversation here,

But in the general sense too of how we encountered this in our daily lives or not.

Compassion.

That's a good one.

So,

You know,

They talk about compassion.

So they talk about compassion as sort of with desire,

With passion kind of thing.

But,

You know,

That's a Catholic,

That's a Christian in the Christian sense.

Compassion in the Buddhist sense is quite different.

You would know more than me.

But my understanding is that compassion is that you don't want other people to suffer,

Actually,

And dukkha,

You know,

I don't mean by suffer as in douleur.

I mean suffer as in to experience samsara for longer than you need to,

You know,

You need to.

Compassion in action is the topic today.

And it is basically compassion is action,

Is essentially that.

That's what I,

That's my take on it.

I don't know.

What do you reckon?

That's a,

That's a beautiful way to put it.

And kind of one of the definitions I've heard or ways to perceive it is,

You know,

It is one of the brahmaviharas,

Like when he was saying,

And we're not talking about kind of to,

Yeah,

With passion,

You know,

That's almost kind of the opposite in a sense.

It's,

It's,

I think it's when,

When the heart is free from hindrances and like things that are blocking it,

Let's just say,

When the heart meets suffering,

Such as stress,

Let's just say stress,

When,

When the heart meets stress,

It's,

It's natural response is compassion.

And the Pali word for this is karuna,

Right?

Karuna.

And there's,

That,

That's an easy way to put it.

I think maybe another way to define it would be,

Or to,

To give a sense of what I'm talking about.

And I want to talk about this as a thing of compassion fatigue and push that into the future here to talk about,

Which is,

To me,

It's kind of a misnomer maybe,

But it's not really done in isolation either.

The other brahmaviharas balanced out when going to that and Wendy and I have done talks in the brahmaviharas in the past.

So maybe I'll link to those,

But so the formal practice is from what I'm gathering,

One of the versions of it is to visualize,

Let's just start,

There's different beings you can visualize.

You visualize an image of someone it's easy to send compassion to,

Starting with that,

Where there's really no complication.

It just flows naturally.

So the,

I like these,

These phrases,

I acknowledge your pain.

So in a sense,

Whatever that pain may be,

Whether it's a physical pain,

A mental pain,

Emotional pain,

It's something where it's stressful,

Right?

Acknowledging that.

And I think that's kind of the biggest key,

You know,

So it doesn't get too sappy or turn into a new age thing or getting dragged down into something.

It's not,

It's a real experiential phenomenon,

This compassion.

So acknowledging,

You see it and you acknowledge it.

You don't pretend that it doesn't exist,

You know,

It's there.

So I'll just go through these quicker then.

So acknowledge your pain and then care about your pain.

So this is whatever degree of care is there.

And that just means that I want to do something about it.

You know,

I want to do whatever I can to help alleviate it that's in a skillful way.

Even if it's just the simple acknowledgement,

A lot of times that that's the most helpful thing.

But then,

Then may your,

Then it's a wish,

You know,

There's also,

There's a wish.

So it's like inclining the mind,

Inclining the heart.

May your pain cease and may you know peace.

So we've got acknowledgement,

Care,

Wishing for it to cease,

And then kind of the result of that ceasing of that pain is a peace,

You know.

And yeah,

So I think that's good enough for now as far as formal practice.

So now we were going to talk about how to take that off the cushion in action.

And I've,

Well I was going to say ways I practice this in real life.

I'll delay and toss it back to Wendy to say,

Wendy,

How do you,

Do you cultivate this compassion and kind of like meditation or,

And then also how do you demonstrate compassion in your life as well?

So first up,

We've just had a chat from somebody,

Talia Mariam,

Or Talia Mariam,

Who started,

Hey,

What's is about?

Okay,

Fifth thing,

In live goodbye.

So I don't know if that's a person or it's a bot.

Anyway,

Just somebody's here.

So.

I can show these real quick on the screen.

Yeah.

Okay.

So,

So welcome Talia,

Or Talia,

Whichever way you say your name,

Or Talia.

So you asked me compassion in action.

So I guess at some level,

Even just that,

That acknowledgement of somebody,

Hi,

What's this about?

To recognise somebody is to go,

Okay,

Well,

We've got somebody who's on our chat.

We don't know whether it's a bot or whether it's a human,

But assuming it's a human,

Let's respond with,

Meet that person where they are.

I think sometimes we can think it's really big,

You know,

We've got to go out,

We've got to ignore our own needs in order to have,

To support somebody else.

And I think going back to the compassion fatigue,

That is when we are not having compassion for ourself,

Not sort of being with the,

Sort of not recognising that we too are limited.

And that's,

That's a problem.

So I think that ends up with burnout and compassion fatigue and moral injury and various other forms of PTSD.

And it was interesting,

So today,

Compassion in action,

It's an interesting thing to talk about,

Because I saw that my husband had cleaned the bathroom.

And he had done it,

I don't know wherever I was,

But he had done it.

And I just said,

Thank you for cleaning the bathroom.

Now I say thank you for everything he does whenever,

As soon as I see that he does it.

I do,

We've talked about this before,

Josh,

That it's important to just say thank you when somebody does something.

So to me,

That is compassion in action,

Because somebody,

Somebody has made an effort in the relationship,

And I'm meeting that respect or something of the relationship with compassion.

Does the person need to be a bit down and out,

Or whatever,

A bit down,

In order for it to be compassion?

So today,

I was teaching mindfulness.

And I teach mindfulness to seniors.

And one of the lovely gentlemen,

And he was talking about his wife,

Who has,

Is at end of life.

And it's difficult.

It's painful.

There's no,

There's no answer here.

There's nothing good here.

He's about to lose his wife.

And I would assume that they have been together for 50 years,

Something like that.

My understanding is that they were probably quite close.

And he has lost his friend.

And she's there,

But she's not there,

Ambiguous loss.

So very painful.

How do you meet that?

How do you meet that?

So,

You know,

I have my transport advocacy thing.

And how does that work with that too?

So tomorrow,

I'm meeting seniors,

And I'm giving the speech to 70 seniors.

It's a 45 minute speech about the community group.

And I want to inspire them to participate in change.

Because for the greater community,

We need change about better transport.

And I want to try and,

I guess,

Sort of raise their energy to take action.

But it's sort of a bit tricky,

Because at some level,

I'm not sure I'm sort of riling them to just a little bit angry in order to step into action,

Actually.

But if you don't do that,

Then you can't get them to step into action.

They just go,

Oh,

Someone else will do it for me.

This is complicated.

You know,

You have to.

So how do you deal with compassion?

I always like to do these tricky things.

I don't like the easy ones where,

You know,

Well,

If somebody's doing this,

Then you do that.

Like,

You know,

We had a cyclone the other day.

And now,

Obviously,

You help people if you can,

If there's a cyclone.

You connect with friends,

How are they going?

Or in our case,

Hi,

Friends,

We're fine.

So because you want to alleviate their sense of distress.

So my friends were going,

I've looked on the television,

And I've seen on the news,

Your area is about to have a cyclone,

Category two.

So stepping up to category three.

So it was quite nerve wracking there for a few days.

And they're going,

Are you okay?

Are you okay?

Are you okay?

So my kind of group email message to them,

Text in the morning and evening going,

We're good.

We're good.

We're good.

So that also is compassion in action.

So what are these nuances that sit on the edge of compassion,

Where you're not burning out,

But you're just meeting the other person's sense of distress in some form,

Or some person's desire for care,

And treating that with respect.

So that's what I would say.

What do you reckon,

Josh?

Well,

There's so much here.

I love how Wendy and I can just work on multiple threads at once,

And draw from this thread,

That thread,

That thread,

And it's still all in this beautiful tapestry.

And we can follow it for the most part.

So yeah,

There's a bunch here.

And I think where I wanted to start off here is tying this back to the whole Brahma,

The hard practice of also the four immeasurables,

Or I think,

What do you,

Is that what you,

What do you call them,

Wendy?

You have a beautiful name for it in Tibetan tradition.

What is it?

It's the four immeasurables.

The immeasurables,

Okay,

That's it.

I really,

Really like it,

Because it's,

The way that I think about it is,

It's immeasurable in terms of how often you can do it.

It's immeasurable,

The number of different types of circumstance you can do it in.

And it's immeasurable in terms of,

You don't know what the impact is going to be 20 years down the road,

Or 100 years down the road,

You don't know that.

You know,

For instance,

There's a lady,

I used to walk on the rail trail,

Which is like a very wide bike path,

Footpath.

And I bumped into her,

And I said,

Hello.

And I,

You know,

We sort of struck up a little bit of a friendship.

And then I said,

Well,

We're looking for someone when somebody came to look at the room downstairs.

And she said,

I'm looking for a room.

So that those little small bits of conversation,

Which we shared up to that point,

I didn't know that she would actually be a really fabulous person living downstairs now,

Who's going to help me with the community group.

So yeah,

I think those,

That's a good example of you don't know where the compassion in action,

You don't know,

It's immeasurable.

Yeah.

And it also can't really be quantified,

Right?

Calculated,

Like Wendy was saying,

And it's boundless,

You know,

There is no limit to it.

It's it is really profound.

And yeah,

It's like trying to catalogue the ocean by the time you even get started.

It's already changed so much that it's impossible,

Right?

But it's vast and beautiful too.

And for anybody that hasn't listened before,

Wendy's in her group,

She's talking about,

Not to oversimplify here,

But bikes,

Putting more emphasis on biking.

So that for those that haven't joined us in the past,

Right?

And not just that,

But go ahead.

Just to clarify,

Just to clarify,

I want to just,

Okay,

It's called,

It's about getting more transport choice with less hassle.

So you've moved to Denmark from the US,

So you've come from a car dominated society.

And now you've gone to Denmark,

Which is,

You have more transport choice.

What's that experience like for you?

Like,

How does that feel in terms of your sense of the society,

And its sense of compassion for people of different body types and financial situations and desires?

So compassion and action from the,

Actually the government.

So what do you think about that?

The US compared to Denmark?

Yeah,

The transportation.

Well,

Let me do one thing at a time here,

And maybe I'll work that in.

So the importance of these Brahma Viharas,

I feel are,

I just recently kind of learned this,

That first meeting everything with metta,

Loving kindness.

And then when that loving kindness meets stress,

Then it turns into compassion.

And then the problem with the compassion fatigue is that it can get really bogged down.

We can go into some really stressful situations.

And one of the things is that,

Yes,

Empathy is nice,

And we have to have empathy.

Otherwise,

It's kind of sociopathic,

Psychopathic.

It's enough empathy to connect with what's going on.

But if I then continue where I match the other person's stress level,

Well,

Then now we only,

Now we have two people that are suffering and in stress instead of this,

The beginning.

So then I'm unable to uplift and be more responsive and wise and loving in my action when I'm dragged down too.

So to suffer with is not necessarily,

I feel that it's just enough to be able to connect and then have a wise response of the heart to acknowledge that suffering and to well-wish.

And then to me,

Compassion and action is actually offering to say,

Oh,

Hey,

Is every,

This is a common phrase that I've used in so many times in my life,

Especially even when I'm suspicious of people,

Of whatever,

I will go up and say,

Hey,

Is everything okay?

How can I help?

Is there anything I can do?

So offering to do,

Doesn't mean I have to do it,

But just offering to say,

Okay,

Is everything okay?

And it has to come from a really genuine,

Authentic place of the heart,

Not like me saying,

Okay,

I'm above you.

Are you okay?

I'm okay.

I mean,

I'm great,

But you suck.

And then I want to make sure that you know that I'm better than you and I'm here in some kind of position above you and going to demonstrate my power that I can help you,

Not in that sense,

In the sense that there's a genuine sense of care there to the best of our capacity,

Wherever that is.

And just seeing and not forcing my help in what I want,

Because a lot of times it's driven out of,

Okay,

This is annoying me.

This makes me feel uncomfortable.

So I want to do something so I don't have to feel that discomfort and sense of,

I don't like this.

So that is a pity and that's like the near enemy of compassion.

Now,

When Wendy was talking about acknowledging her partner with the bathroom,

I would say that probably goes into the next one of mudita,

Which is a celebration or rejoicing that,

But in a way,

Not in a superficial way,

But it's saying,

Okay,

It's,

No,

I don't know,

But it is an acknowledgement,

But it's also like,

Hey,

What you did here is going to help.

It helps you.

It helps me.

And then it helps us.

It's harmonious.

It's something worth acknowledging and rejoicing in,

In a way that this is a beautiful act of care that's been demonstrated.

And this mudita can help when we do get too bogged down in situations.

I was reflecting this morning on really challenging times in my life.

And when Wendy mentioned self-compassion,

Which is so important,

This is not just me and other beings.

This is me for myself too,

Right?

Having compassion for myself and noticing that are when these memories come up from time to time and just having compassion for who I was,

What I was going through during that time,

You know?

And if we really don't get bogged down in something where it is really,

You know,

Lowering it so much,

Then this is where mudita can come in and start thinking of things and inclining the heart to uplift it.

Okay.

What can I see in here worth of rejoicing?

And one of the things is care.

I care enough.

I'm actually spending the time to do this.

Most people wouldn't do it.

Most people,

Not most people,

But whatever.

A lot of people wouldn't have the courage to face this,

Or they don't really care.

They're indifferent.

But the fact that I am willing to help here is something worth rejoicing,

You know?

It's a beautiful quality in the world that I can have resources to potentially draw upon if it gets too tough.

That's something worth rejoicing.

So this is a balancing,

And all these things balance themselves.

And sometimes with compassion,

I'll just say that the most compassionate thing we can do is set boundaries and reinforce them,

You know?

Because abuse is never okay,

And these things are necessary.

I can rejoice in the fact that that person taught me to leave or to get out,

To set a boundary,

And to enforce them,

To stand up for myself,

You know?

That's what I can rejoice in,

That,

You know,

Not in what's happened and saying that's okay,

But saying,

Okay,

Now I'm learning boundaries.

Now I'm learning to enforce those.

And then equanimity is the fourth Brahma Bihara.

And this is kind of an acknowledgment that I'm responsible for myself,

And everybody else is responsible for themselves,

Even though I care and want to do whatever I can.

They're subject to their past actions,

Just as I'm subject to my past actions,

And my current actions in the fruit of those actions,

You know,

When they're done intentionally,

With intentionality.

So sometimes there's just nothing we can do,

And we can just rest in this even keel notion of,

Yes,

There's care there,

But I can only do so much.

I can't live the other person's life for them.

And this is what kind of balances out everything else,

Or kind of where all these other beautiful qualities draw from,

An overarching quality.

Okay.

So the,

I think,

When was there?

Oh,

The compassion fatigue.

I'll just,

We'll come now.

Let me just address that real quick.

So I think that there's something off with that,

Because compassion is supposed to address fatigue,

You know.

And so I think one of the ways to do this is the mudita.

When things get really rough,

And we get really dragged down,

Then it needs,

It's not wise and helpful anymore to keep staying in that.

So I feel it's time to uplift the heart,

To balance that out a little bit,

It seems like,

Right?

To notice things worth rejoicing.

I know it's,

I'm being a little bit abstract here,

But maybe some examples will come to me,

Because we all know this when things get really rough in our life.

And I'm not saying go out and,

You know,

Do things superficially,

But like really search the heart for a balance of where it can be uplifted more.

We can reflect on the goodness that others have showed us,

You know,

The goodness that I've done,

And that not just superficial,

But things that have actually come because of it.

Even if it's just an energetic feeling of uplifting the heart,

Because then if I'm too dragged down,

Then I can't really take care of myself,

Take care of others,

Respond wisely in the world,

Or even know when not to get involved with this type of action too.

So this is kind of the compassion in action.

And Wendy's transportation thing,

So it is really a mind bender in some ways to be in Denmark here for three months,

And I go to England here very soon,

And I'll be,

I don't,

We won't have,

We may not have one next month because of that,

And even in May,

But in June,

We've got one scheduled Q&A here,

Wendy and I.

But so in Denmark,

There's not,

I'm not used to all the,

There's so many ups and downs in the States for me.

Here,

Things seem more stable,

You know what I mean?

And people kind of,

At least in a rural area where I'm at,

People tend to be more to themselves.

And even in Copenhagen,

Everybody just seems so polite,

And people kind of mind their own business.

And there is one instance,

Though,

I've noticed when walking down the sidewalk in Copenhagen,

A lot of people go two by two,

Right?

And they will just not move whatsoever to let me by when I'm walking by myself.

And so I find myself more times than not yielding,

Either stopping or getting onto the street.

And it's just kind of,

That's just kind of the cultural thing.

They don't really mean anything by it.

They're just not really paying attention.

And that's just how they do,

You know,

It's not a lot of emphasis on considering the other person.

And so,

You know,

How's the heart with that?

Of course,

I get a little bit indignant.

I mean,

Surely,

You know,

Yeah,

One or two times,

But come on,

You know,

Yield for me,

I'm yielding for all these people.

What is the deal?

You know,

And then the other tendency is the opposite.

Okay,

I'm just going to barrel head,

They're going to yield for me whether they want to or not.

And I'm going to stand my ground.

I'm just going to go straight.

And you know,

So it's just this,

It's an interesting interplay like that.

And it's not personal,

You know,

And it's trying to get to get over that.

And of course,

Then I feel compassion for myself and not being able,

My biggest line is,

Oh,

I'm sorry,

I don't speak Danish yet.

And they're,

Oh,

No problem.

Everybody's so accommodating,

And so inclusive,

And speak English so well,

You know,

And I guess there's just not enough shame yet to,

You know,

To motivate to speak,

To learn,

To actually start to practice Danish,

Because then I feel a little bit like,

Oh,

Well,

I'm putting them in some kind of spot where they're gonna have to,

You know,

Be awkward with me trying to speak,

Even though I know that a lot of times they will appreciate it.

So there's all these different complex dynamics.

But as far as transport,

I've gone on and on too much here.

But as far as transportation goes,

I really think it's the way you framed it,

Wendy,

I would frame it just a little bit different.

It's a whole mindset,

You know,

That mindset just does not exist in the States,

In some of the cities,

It might,

But it's just so accepted,

So culturally interwoven,

And so just way of normality,

That people really don't even consider this until maybe they travel to another place,

Or like when I travel to another place,

And I just realized that it's just,

It's just there,

And it's solidified.

So it's not like there almost needs to be some kind of transitional period to kind of see the differences.

And,

You know,

I can't even imagine how the how much if they wanted to change to something else,

Or if the United States wanted to change to something else,

Because it just seems so established in both places,

And kind of a rigid mindset in places.

That's why I feel that travel is kind of important,

Because then we can actually see this dynamic at play,

And how kind of oblivious both cultures are to anything different than how it is.

I shouldn't say oblivious.

I'm just saying that,

Yeah,

It's,

There's significant differences,

And people don't realize how ingrained and established their way of doing things is,

You know.

So yeah,

So thoughts on all that.

All right.

Okay.

But first up,

We have Mrs.

Reid again today,

Which is so lovely.

And she says,

Yeah,

Best compassion is alive and lived in life.

Also nicely put,

Wendy.

Thank you very much,

Mrs.

Reid.

Lovely to have you here again today,

A real person.

So one of our regulars,

Definitely.

So lovely.

And I think instead of joy,

And I can,

It's,

That's.

.

.

Rejoicing.

Are they altruistic joy,

Sympathetic joy,

Vicarious joy?

Yes.

All right.

I've got a better,

I've got a better term.

I've got a better term.

It's confelicity,

Which is an English word.

And it means that you celebrate in the happiness of another person.

Confelicity.

It reminds me of.

.

.

Confelicity.

It's almost like,

But it's not convoluted,

Is it?

Is that where it's.

.

.

No,

Confelicity.

Felicity.

Felicity,

Not felicity.

Okay.

Felicity.

Felicity.

Felicity.

Like,

Like fidelity.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Felicity,

No.

Fidelity.

Fide,

It means,

Fide comes from truth,

I think.

Okay.

But felicity is happiness.

Yeah.

It's,

That's a different thing.

So,

So if you think of Schadenfreude,

Think of the opposite.

That's confelicity.

So I,

Just to put that as a heads up,

But I think that your definition of,

I've heard that one where you have love and then compassion and then joy and,

And that when it's too much one,

Then you move into the next,

Into the next.

And I think that's too tidy.

I want to just put it out there.

I think it doesn't work like that.

Like,

You know,

We're not one thing.

And I don't like this,

I guess,

Greek philosophy,

If you love,

Then you cannot hate,

Because somehow they are,

You know,

One contradicts the other,

But that's not true.

You can love someone and hate them at the same time.

You know,

It's complex,

But it's true.

Now,

I think that it is possible that in that situation,

I'm going to take that one and pull it apart a little bit.

But before I do,

I just want to say,

What you're bumping up against is your own cultural expectation that other people should yield to your,

Your habits.

So it's just a habit.

This is what makes living in foreign countries really difficult.

I've done it a few times and it's really hard.

And by the way,

I'm going to shame you until you learn Danish,

Because every time we meet,

I'm like,

How's your Danish going?

Because it's not that hard.

It's not a hard language to learn.

Oh,

Come on.

The Danes tell me it's one of the hardest ones to learn.

Oh,

No,

It's not.

It's absolutely not.

Okay.

I like that.

There's some interesting ways of counting.

But apart from that,

It's super easy.

You pick it up in a doddle.

You're clever.

It's like really easy.

It's much easier than French or like Chinese or Japanese.

Like,

Get over yourself.

It is good.

The grammar is actually not that different from English.

It's like half of it's in English anyway.

Don't worry about it.

That's true.

Yeah.

Anyway,

Spelling and pronunciation is anyway.

Pronunciation is a little bit more tricky,

But pronunciation in English is tricky.

You know.

I don't need it.

Excuses aren't going to help me anyway.

I understand that.

They're not going to help you learn it.

Get over yourself.

So,

Okay.

All right.

So,

In that instance,

Is that compassion in action,

In fact?

Because here am I saying,

Look,

To me,

I just hear excuses.

Yeah.

Oh,

Well,

You know,

I don't want to put them uncomfortable.

I'm like,

Nah,

That's rubbish.

You just,

You don't want to do it.

You don't want to make yourself uncomfortable.

Yeah.

But of course,

When you're in a foreign country,

That is appropriate that you should be learning that language.

And that's the way that I see it.

Of course.

So,

When I hear sort of like,

Yeah,

Yeah,

No,

No,

No,

I don't want to make them uncomfortable.

I'm just like,

Yeah,

Get over yourself.

So,

Is my action there compassion in action?

And I would say,

Yeah,

Because I'm sort of able to speak quite sternly in a playful way,

But I'm quite stern.

I'm quite serious.

But in a helpful way too.

You don't have bad intentions to tear down someone and make them worse off.

This is the intentionality behind all this.

This is where,

Yeah,

The intentionality is so important.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

So,

To me,

This is an act of love.

So,

I think that,

Yeah.

So,

I think this idea,

I think what is really important is to have,

Is that it's dynamic.

Everything is so dynamic and it's not neat and tidy categorizations of philosophy.

Everything is categorized in a separate place as if things are objects and not relational.

If you think about interdependence and dependent arising,

And I'm sorry for people who aren't so familiar with those Buddhist terms,

But I'm just going to give you a bit of heads up.

So,

There is this term called emptiness.

And what that means basically is everything sits within a context.

And dependent arising,

Which is that if you have this,

Then that,

And then that's how you have two reeds leaning together.

So,

You have one bushel,

One bushel or whatever it is,

And then you have your stack of reeds.

Clearly not done in today's vernacular,

But you get my thing,

You get my vibe there.

Causes and conditions,

Yeah.

But it's also,

If you take away one piece of any situation,

Then,

So you could say,

All right,

So you're walking down the street and you've got two people,

I'm going to call it a couple,

Just for simplicity's sake,

And you're walking down the street and this couple is doing that.

Now,

You're affronted by their lack of desire to yield,

Their lack of yield.

And you're saying,

Well,

That's me,

They are being rude to me.

And now you're in Denmark,

And this is the cultural norm.

So,

You take one of those away,

Which is the couple,

Where you don't have to worry about that.

You take yourself away,

Then you don't have to worry about it.

You take your American conditioning,

I haven't done that,

Or the couple you're walking down the street in the US,

And then that changes the cultural more.

So,

The thing about dependent arising and emptiness is you take away one piece and the whole picture completely changes.

So,

We're talking about compassion in action.

So,

Which I'm not sure we're doing such a good,

I'm trying to bring it back,

But I'm not sure.

It's a work in progress,

For sure.

Yeah,

You go.

Okay.

So,

In that situation,

Yes,

All these different perceptions are playing a part in it.

And I guess the really heart of the matter here is how do I respond?

The perceptual level will help a lot,

But in practicality,

What do I do?

You know?

And that is even based on a projection,

I guess,

Of,

Oh,

It's going to happen the same way every time,

Which I know it's not,

Because eventually there's going to be some yielding on that part.

It wasn't 100% either.

And this is so,

Then another thing,

This is such a petty thing,

I think,

With all the challenges in our world,

To me,

To use this example and spend so much time on this.

But,

You know,

We work with what we got,

I guess.

So,

The intentionality here is really helpful.

I think it's really important too.

And,

But I want to address Wendy's point of these neat and tidy boxes.

Yes.

And the way I put it,

Yes,

That would totally valid criticism.

It doesn't work like that.

This is me trying to put words on an ideal situation,

Right?

But what happens in the mess of reality is that we just have to draw upon whatever wisdom is there and kind of trust that,

Okay,

What's needed now?

That question,

I think,

Is of a paramount practical significance of navigating in relational world,

You know?

What's needed now?

Whatever we find ourselves in,

Is the way we're continuing doing things or perceiving things and viewing things,

Is that needed to continue and be more of,

Or is something else needed?

And then if something else is needed,

Trusting that,

You know,

Whatever capacity is,

That will come to us or we'll learn about it as we make a mistake,

You know?

So this question,

I think,

Is really important.

And yeah,

If we can kind of train the heart,

That's why these are formal practices too,

That if we train these formally,

Then the heart and mind kind of naturally more inclines to that way of being in the world.

And yeah,

And then we kind of get to,

And then practice in daily life,

And then that will inform our formal sitting practice and the depths of nuances that we go into with that in our capacities,

I feel,

Perhaps,

As well.

So yeah,

Go ahead.

Okay,

All right.

Okay,

I want to go back to the footpath example.

I think it's a really good example.

I think it's super good,

I think,

Because it's so small that it niggles,

But it's not,

But it's also petty.

I really like it when it's petty.

It's really petty and common.

Yeah,

You know,

When you're kind of.

.

.

Everybody can relate to this situation.

Yeah,

You're really riled up and it seems really insignificant and all the rest.

I kind of just think,

Why is this happening?

You know,

Surely,

Statistically speaking,

Somebody would yield out of like 50 times.

Maybe just one couple would do it,

You know,

And maybe one did,

But you know,

It's just kind of like,

How is this happening?

It's just kind of bewilderment,

You know.

You know,

You're in another culture,

So you're having to bend to somebody else's culture.

And this is what makes living in foreign countries really difficult and quite lonely-making in times,

Because you go,

Why are they doing that?

I feel so alienated.

Are they against me?

You know,

It leads into all these other things.

It's such a good opportunity for practice,

Though,

Too.

Go ahead,

Yeah.

Yeah,

So what I.

.

.

I've got a friend who I teach mindfulness with.

That's more insight.

I meet her every day,

Well,

Four days a week,

And she's got some mental health issues,

So I just meet with her and then I just go,

What do you want to practice on today?

And then I do a five-minute meditation,

And then we talk about what arose.

So it's been super helpful.

In five months,

She's just changed from being somebody sobbing in the corner,

Just unable to function,

To being somebody who's now going,

Well,

Maybe I can volunteer somewhere.

So it's fantastic.

It's just.

.

.

And she's going,

Wow,

I'm actually.

.

.

I realize I've been wrong about my husband all these years.

I've been holding a big grudge,

And here I've been blaming him for years,

And this.

So she and I have these amazing,

Beautiful,

Wonderful conversations,

And I'm learning,

Too,

As I go,

Like,

What happens in my world?

And I met three big highfalutin directors the other day at the council,

And the meeting,

They said some things which was very confronting for me.

I'm quite thrown for six for that.

And I can feel some lack of compassion.

So just what I've noticed with my friend and I and her lack of compassion,

Because she gets into these rages where she's completely outraged.

You know,

She's raging outside of beyond.

She's outraged.

And she,

As I was sort of talking with her,

And I thought about myself and my own pain,

What I realized is that outrage sort of comes from feeling like a victim,

And that the victim comes from feeling disempowered,

Actually.

And so I put it to you.

And then as I think about my three directors that I met the other day at council,

I actually feel very disempowered by what they say,

And that's what makes me really angry with them.

So I'm having to sort of think about that.

So I put it to you in your footpath issue experience,

Whether you feel a bit disempowered somehow,

And this is sort of sniggling at the corner of your heart and causing this hardening of the heart,

And you lose compassion for the fact that,

Well,

They're in their own little world,

So,

You know,

As a woman,

I'm always crossing the street.

You know,

Like,

I don't just have to yield,

But I have to cross the street,

And I have to find new ways of whole new streets to walk down,

Or I have to walk in the middle of the road,

If it's depending on the time of the day.

So to me,

What you're describing is so tiny.

I'm like,

Well,

Why don't you just yield?

What's wrong with yielding?

Why do you,

So why is that?

But nonetheless,

That is your experience.

And you can hear my sense of outrage,

Like,

What is wrong with you?

Like,

You can hear I'm like,

Have no compassion for your experience.

No,

Go ahead.

Yeah,

But what I want to say is,

Actually,

I feel disempowered in my own streets,

Because I want to walk down the street and feel respected,

And I want to feel safe.

And more often than not,

I just don't.

I get yelled abuse at because I'm on a bicycle.

I get people parking in the middle of whatever.

I had two telecommunications guys park their stupid van on the footpath,

And I'm going,

Park on the road.

And they're like,

We can't,

We're not allowed to.

And I said,

Well,

You're not allowed to park on the footpath either.

But this sense of disempowerment that sits in the basement of the hard heart,

That causes the victim,

That causes the hardening of the heart,

And the lack of compassion.

And then the outrage and the entitlement.

So there you are.

I've just put something forward to you.

This is so important.

And I think I would venture to go into the fact that we're living in a culture of outrage now,

And that it's even deliberately invoked a lot of times in the media.

It's one outrage to the next.

This can't be overstated enough how important this is,

And how Wendy broke it down here into this notion of victimhood,

And disempowerment,

And outrage.

It's so vital at the times we're living in here.

And I will just say for the record here that I did yield,

I think maybe one or two times out of,

I don't know,

50,

Just guessing here,

That I didn't yield because I'm just not that personality type where I'm just going to put my head.

I've,

Yeah,

When I was that way in the past,

It did not work out well for me.

So I don't,

Yeah,

I just yield.

And I think maybe kind of a defense mechanism is this kind of,

I can't believe this,

You know,

Not so much outrage.

It's just like,

I just,

Bewilderment or like,

How is this happening kind of thing,

You know what I mean?

But it is that disempowering that comes from a place of,

I don't feel empowered.

I feel disempowered,

You know,

Or disrespected at least.

But it's not,

It's not that,

You know.

But I want to say disrespected is a kind of justification.

But I think in the base of emotion of that is really saying,

I feel disempowered.

And I think it's okay to say I feel disempowered.

And I think a lot of people do feel disempowered.

It's very corporatized.

You know,

You can't talk.

I mean,

I can talk to politicians.

I talk to politicians all the time.

But,

Excuse me,

I once wanted to take in some things into the government,

Into the Department of Transport.

And I had these envelopes.

And they said,

You can't deposit that here.

You have to post them.

And I was like,

But I'm just delivering something.

No,

You can't do that.

We don't accept any,

Anything.

And I guess they're afraid of bombs.

But to me,

It struck me as that the government is now so impenetrable in this corporatize.

And nothing makes sense.

You know,

You ring up the Social Security Department and you get to the end of the queue.

And as somebody said to me in the queue when I was unemployed,

He said,

But there's no one there.

And so going back to,

You know,

You get to the end of the line and they just read off the screen.

And it's not just unemployed people.

But my friend used to work in the emergency department.

And he would be able to go,

G'day,

Dave.

What's the go on this medication?

And he'd go,

Ah,

Look,

You know,

This is the deal.

This is that.

This is that.

Probably you could get away with it in this circumstance.

Yeah,

You could probably do it.

But instead,

You know,

He gets,

You know,

Taron,

Who's,

You know,

22 years old,

Who's reading off the screen.

And so he's disempowered from doing his job.

And then that leads to,

And that led to a whole lot of moral injury where he feels no,

So just going to your initial thing about compassion and burnout and compassion fatigue.

He wanted to treat patients.

But he said,

What you had to do was to,

You couldn't create any delay in treatment.

You had to get through the numbers.

So you get through the easy ones first,

Because otherwise the wait list time is really high,

Which gets marked down on your KPIs,

Which then goes into the press.

And then there's outrage.

Why was the wait time at the hospital XYZ time?

And he's going,

I want to treat the people who are really seriously injured,

But I can't.

I've got to deal with these people who come in with minor stuff.

So I think this thing about outrage,

Disempowerment,

Compassion,

I think is part of the same thing,

Because when I feel hard-hearted,

Literally I feel hard-hearted,

My heart feels very hard.

I think it is because I feel disempowered and I feel like I can't actually have compassion because my heart is hard.

My heart is hard.

And I think it is because I feel disempowered.

And I think this is part of that larger picture.

Why do we feel outraged?

Because we actually feel disempowered.

We've just lost the sense of compassion.

And yes,

I think it's fueled by social media.

Well,

And not only that,

You talk kind of even a more classic thing of bureaucracy,

At least in the States.

I haven't really experienced it so much here and other places,

But it's,

Yes,

I get it.

These systems are in place to make things less confusing,

Kind of more efficient.

But when they get to be a problem is when people won't budge,

They won't use their intuition or their common sense to address something a little bit differently,

Right?

That they're a hard line on the things,

But life doesn't work like that.

You can't just do everything from the book all the time because then you're like a robot.

And we don't,

Because if,

Yeah,

You don't treat people that way in every single instance,

You know what I mean?

Or you can at least explain to them why it's the case,

You know,

And spend just an extra moment saying,

Why it's like that instead of just being cold and,

You know,

Okay,

I can't do it.

But then some people just they're already traumatized in enough pain themselves.

They don't have the capacity or they're not,

You know,

They don't wanna be doing what they're doing.

So they're not gonna take that extra step to do what they can to be helpful.

So even more reason why compassion is needed,

You know?

And I would say,

Yeah,

There is a financial,

At least a financial,

If not way more insidious incentives for media and especially social media to incite outrage,

You know?

It is,

It gets people emotionally involved.

It gets more eyes on the screen,

More involvement,

More attention.

And the longer people can stay on screen interacting,

The more data can be harvested.

And the more data that can be harvested,

The more control can be implemented and the more money can be generated through ads and predictive models and things like this.

Amongst other things that they haven't even figured out what they'll use for it in the future,

Just collect all the data you can.

The reason,

One of the ways to collect all the data you just can't is make things addictive,

Make people more on there.

And outrage is one way to do it,

You know?

And it's just this,

What they call it poly-crisis,

Where it's just,

You turn on the news,

It's just one crisis after the next.

And then the one that happened,

You know,

24 hours,

48 hours ago,

What happened to that?

A lot of times they don't even report on the follow-up of it.

They're just onto the next crisis and then more outrage.

So,

Yeah,

You know,

And so one of the things is acknowledging this and waking up to it and seeing it.

And then,

Yeah,

What do we do?

What do we do about it?

Well,

If we're caught in the midst of it,

You know,

Compassion,

But then we also have to bring wisdom into this to make decisions where we don't put ourselves in these situations to begin with,

I think.

It's one of the ways to do it,

Yeah.

I mean,

That's an interesting thing.

We don't put ourselves.

So it's true,

It's true,

But it's sometimes we can't walk away.

So like,

So for me,

You know,

With my community group,

You know,

It is about,

I can't walk away from this.

I sort of started something and I,

Well,

I don't want to walk away,

Actually.

I don't want to turn a blind eye and I'm spending my time going,

Hey guys,

You guys need to look at this because this is a real problem for you as much,

You know,

It's more of a problem for you than it is for me.

I'm just kind of the messenger,

But you know,

You can do the Stalin-esque approach where you shoot the messenger and that's basically what they do,

You know?

And so- Power is really important too,

Wendy,

When it comes to these governmental things,

Because it's about power.

Those people are in power and a lot of them are career and they're looking to stay in power.

And how do you do that?

Well,

You make sure that nobody confronts that power and that you're more powerful than the next person,

You know?

So this is where you have to engage in politics.

And yeah,

There's many other ways to address this in politics,

But it's a dirty game.

It can be very dirty at times,

But if you do get a payoff,

You know,

If you do get a payoff,

Well,

Then you get a payoff or you get a change.

And you're working in the system and yeah,

There's all kinds of things,

You know,

Only so much wiggle room within that system.

And there's a training within that too,

Yeah.

But I think also,

I am,

You know,

Let's hope I'm wrong,

But I think that we are heading into a war and I've thought this for a long time,

We're heading into a global war and more acutely now than ever.

And certainly there are other things.

So what do you do?

Well,

Hang on,

Do you mean a traditional war?

Like World War III,

You think?

Well,

A lot of people have predicted that for quite some time.

And I would say at least it's more of a war of hearts and mind and soft power now.

So it's a war for control of the hearts and minds and control of the narrative.

Because as we know,

Most people,

Their reality is not actually what reality is,

But it's a narrative about reality.

So if the narrative can be controlled and dominated,

That's pretty much,

Then they don't really,

If the people in power can get people to control themselves or to censor themselves and to fight themselves and fight amongst each other,

Then other powers don't need to get involved in certain ways.

So this divide and conquer tactic,

I say.

I think there is that.

It's a little bit close on the edge of a conspiracy theory,

So I don't want to go down that too much.

I was thinking,

I have a godson who's 20.

And I look at my friends who have boys who are young and I go,

Well,

In war.

So if there is a war and there's some strange political things happening around the world,

Then if you always look away,

What does that mean,

Actually,

To just always look away?

Is that compassion in action?

At what point do you decide?

So it's interesting.

So there's a comedian here called Magda Żubanski.

Her father is Polish or was Polish.

And she found out quite recently that he had been an assassin during the Second World War and he had killed lots of people.

This is her father.

And he was on the side,

He was against the Nazis and he was killing traitors.

And he killed people because they wanted some food for their families and they were starving.

And Poland was grindingly poor.

It was just the Nazis really cleaned them out in a big way like they did with the Netherlands.

Lots of places,

They just cleaned them out.

And so these people,

And he would just shoot them.

Well,

You were a traitor.

I don't care what your story is.

I'm going to shoot you.

Now in that instance,

It's complicated.

Tell me where is compassion in action?

So the guy shot the Nazis,

Is that what you're saying?

The traitors,

The Polish people who wanted some food for their families,

How do you deal with?

And then you've got the Nazis and they are taking over your country.

You cannot always look away.

So compassion in action,

How do you deal with that?

This is the stuff I like to look at.

It's very,

Very complex.

And this is where these thought experiments,

The first thing I like to start off with these,

They're brilliant to look at and I'm not dismissing them.

I'm just saying when we're in a situation,

As we know,

When we think about it beforehand,

Sometimes it happens like that.

But a lot of times it happens in completely different ways.

So let's just start off that way because you can't really know what you would do in a certain situation.

There's so many factors and conditions involved.

It's too complex.

Real life is way more complex than some kind of thought experiment that just kind of amplifies my views.

But the way it actually plays out in reality is oftentimes so far from how it is.

So in that sense,

Yeah,

I just take what I say with a grain of salt.

So again,

This comes back to intentionality.

Do you want to harm and then justify why you're harming?

Or do you really wanna commit to non-harming?

And so I'm in a unique situation where I don't have a family to protect.

So this is different.

Who am I to say to people with families to protect,

Oh,

You should be a complete radical pacifist like I am right now.

I can't say that.

I can just invoke the non-aggression principle,

Which means that no one has the right to aggress on anyone at the same time.

Once force is initiated,

Everyone has the right to protect themselves and the ones they love,

Okay?

So no one has the right to initiate force.

However,

They can defend themselves.

So this is why I still protect or uphold the Second Amendment in the United States because ideally we'd be in a state of consciousness where- I don't know what the Second Amendment of the United States is.

Right,

To bear arm,

To have guns- Oh gosh,

Terrible idea.

Bad,

Bad,

Bad.

To protect yourself,

Right?

So the first thing- The first thing that dictators do usually is they come in and they take everybody's weapons and then people are completely defenseless,

Even if it's just a psychological thing,

You know?

So that's the first thing they do.

That's the way that people get in a lot of these messes.

And we can go down that whole route.

And I won't own a gun,

But this is why I protect that because they can take away the guns and then you have no really psychological means to protect yourself whatsoever and the ones you love.

So- I think you're crazy,

Josh.

I think you- So,

Yeah,

But so are dictators.

Dictators are beyond crazy.

They're psychopathic and they don't care.

That you should be able to protect yourself.

But anyway,

So let me put that aside and say,

This is where these things evoke emotions.

Politics is an emotional con game.

I'll just say that.

All these things are emotionally loaded questions that are designed that to trigger people out emotionally.

And then once people can't to behave in a way,

Then the people that with all the power,

They look at the populace and they say,

These people,

They can't do that.

We have to control them because they can't control themselves.

And so this is where some things get in.

But I wanna just say here,

The intentionality,

Am I committed to non-harming and peace?

Or am I just going to use harm to justify what I want in the world?

And I think this is a really important thing to commit to.

And I'll just put out the vast cycle of time.

This is where it's helpful to know that,

Yeah,

I'm not asking anybody to believe in rebirth,

But it's just,

Okay,

What are the consequences of my actions long-term?

The classic Buddhist thing is that some of these wars just have to play out because due to people's past actions,

This is how they're fruiting.

They're fruiting in this war.

And it's just gonna be hard for anybody to get out of it just due to their past actions that are not taking fruit.

That's one way to look at it.

It's a very complex issue.

How courageous is it though,

Actually,

To face down someone that's threatening my life and saying,

I love you,

I love you.

Now that's pretty crazy,

But you're gonna die anyway.

And so at least I could go out saying,

I am committed to non-harming.

I'm gonna set an example here,

Not as a martyr,

But to say that this will never end.

If I just continue violence with violence,

Harm with harm,

Again,

I'm not recommending that for anyone with family and loved ones who have to do what they have to do to protect their loved ones.

But what I really wanna put emphasis on here is the intentionality of well-wishing and non-harm and peacefulness in our interactions because it really does make a difference.

So that's what's important with these things.

For sure,

For sure,

For sure.

We are over time,

Josh.

Yes.

And sorry for- Got a bit heated there.

I think it's the most heated conversation we've ever had.

Anytime you bring in Jewish people and Nazis,

It's a huge emotional trigger.

We know how loaded that is.

Are you Jewish?

I didn't realize.

No,

No,

No,

I'm not.

But I'm saying this thought experiment,

If you're hiding Jewish people and the Nazis come and say,

Hey,

Are you harboring Jewish people?

Would you lie to them or not?

And so this thought experiment is like,

It's so loaded.

It's such a loaded thing.

What's to say that Nazi's not gonna come in there no matter what you say?

You know what I'm saying?

So when you say Jews and Nazis,

It's a hugely loaded emotional question.

So if you just put two different demographics in there- It's interesting what you heard because I actually talked about a Polish guy.

I know you did,

Yeah.

And the Nazis,

And you then put in the Jewish,

But the Nazis did plenty of other horrible things that had nothing to do with Jewish people.

Absolutely,

Yeah.

So I was just talking about what do you do as a daughter to a father going,

He was an assassin.

Is this my father?

And complex relationships that we have with our parents.

I just thought it was interesting to play around with that.

But I still think you're crazy that everyone shouldn't be able to bear an arm.

And I'm so glad you're- But they also have the right to not have it too.

So giving the right to do it also means you have the right to choose not to have it as well,

So.

Yeah,

I think everybody has to have a deal where they don't walk around with guns all the time because otherwise you've got people who are crazy.

Yeah,

But the criminals,

The criminals that aren't gonna pay attention to that,

The criminals are still gonna do it.

And the criminals get guns illegally anyway.

So- You need to look at some stats on guns in order to think that that's good.

Because I just think- I'm not saying it's good.

I'm just saying,

How do you stop a dictator with a military?

What defense do you have against that?

I mean,

This is the thing about Stalin.

He killed 40 million people or 20 million people or something.

20 million people,

I think.

And then I think Mao sort of shamed everybody by killing 40 million people.

I mean,

This is- And that's the first thing they did is take away people's arms,

You know?

Sure,

Sure,

Sure,

Sure,

Sure.

But I guess I come from a very placid country where we got rid of all our guns a couple of decades ago where we just went,

This is crazy.

We've got to get rid of all the guns because somebody went nuts.

And gee,

We are so grateful for that one.

That was a politician.

I don't agree with his politics generally,

But I went,

Wow,

That was actually the number one best thing he ever did as far as I'm concerned.

So going back to everything,

We are over time,

Josh.

We need to time out,

Time out.

Sure,

And I will say that,

Yeah,

In Europe too.

So I'm not totally disregarding that because in Europe,

It's kind of worked too.

Maybe more people are stabbing each other now,

But there is something to that.

And it's also a cultural mindset.

But yeah,

See what happens when we get into politics here.

But before we end,

Wendy,

Why don't you just say your view on the situation with the daughter that you brought up and then we'll take it out here.

How do you feel about that?

I think it's a really,

I think our relationships are complex with anybody.

She disclosed that she has a very complicated relationship with her father.

Her father could be absolutely cold,

But he also could be beautifully warm.

He had such contempt for her weakness because he had to do these things in the war.

He felt that was important to do.

That was his compassion in action.

And so I think it's,

War is a thing where it brings out anything and everything in people.

And we are,

In my mind,

We are heading in that direction.

And you're in Denmark and you're four minutes away from Ukraine.

And this is,

And Poland,

This is complicated stuff that is starting to be,

We never thought we would be here in our lifetime.

And here we are.

And so I think this is a very complex time and a good questioning time that to question ourselves,

Well,

We have this intention to do no harm,

But really someone puts a gun to your fiance's head.

And what are you going to do?

Just say,

Oh,

Well,

Everybody dies.

Or are you going to try and say,

Or are you just going to freeze on the spot,

Which is probably what a lot of us do.

Or you just go like,

You don't know,

You panic.

So it's not,

We don't,

It's not a theoretical thing.

I mean,

I know you thought I was a thought experiment,

But I think for me,

What I was looking at was not to trap you or anything like that,

But to go,

What is your emotional response?

What's your emotional reaction?

How do you respond?

And you go,

Yeah,

Actually,

This is really hard.

There are no clear answers here.

And I've had lots of complicated things to do with my sister who was born with a terminal illness,

My father who died with a terminal,

Who died of a terminal illness.

These are complicated things that I've had to live through.

And I think when you live through those things,

There is a kind of,

Well,

Actually things don't fit into neat and tidy.

And the purpose of practice is to practice so that when you are confronted with difficult situations,

You drop to the level of your training,

As they say in the Navy SEALs or whatever it is.

And I think that's where we have to do.

So,

And we did not have so much compassion for each other today.

I was like,

You're crazy.

No,

It's,

These are common things when we get into heated topics.

I will just say,

Yes,

I honestly,

I don't know what I would do if I was in that situation and I can theorize about it and say whatever I want.

But the matter of the fact is it's completely different because I was,

I did witness a shootout and daylight in an okay neighborhood.

And it was so far different than anything I could have ever imagined.

It would be,

I don't know if I've given that story,

But completely,

I could have never prepared for any of that,

Completely different than anything that even in the most horrible violence of movies.

But I will say if there's a war and they were to draft me,

You can't put a gun in my hand and make me kill a stranger that I don't know for reasons that I don't understand by people that want to send me off.

So I will immediately go to prison right away if that's the case,

Because you can't put a gun in my hand and make me kill someone.

It's completely asinine over ideologies that I'm told about that I have no idea and a stranger and to program someone to go kill someone for someone they don't really even understand what's going on.

The level of mind control or manipulation that you have to get someone to go do that is just off the charts ridiculous,

You know,

To tell someone they have to go kill a stranger for some kind of ideology and things like that,

Which is a lot,

What a lot of wars are,

You know.

Now it can get personal like Wendy mentioned that that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about,

You know,

Starting wars and stuff.

So yeah,

I will go to jail right away because you can't put a gun in my hand and make me pull the trigger to some stranger for some ideology,

Some crazy ideology,

You know,

It's asinine.

Actually,

You don't know,

But we should talk about those experiences if you're okay with it.

Let's talk about our complex experiences and how did we respond on the spot?

And let's do that next time and then go like,

Wow,

You know,

This isn't easy.

This is not theory.

This is practice.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Perfect.

And thank you guys for sticking with me and thank you,

Wendy.

We've gone over here quite a bit.

Way over.

All right.

Sorry about that being a bit long.

So may you all practice with compassion and apply it appropriately when needed.

And yeah.

All right.