Power And Manipulation

In this episode, we discuss the widely popular book The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene. Glenn and Ben discuss attaining power through manipulation and fear versus through love, understanding, and compassion.

Transcript

Welcome to Life,

Lessons and Laughter with your host Glenn Ambrose.

Hello and welcome to the podcast.

Today we are doing something that Ben,

Yeah a little different,

Ben's gonna lead it and I'm just gonna break out my tennis racket and hit stuff back and forth.

So what is this thing all about Ben?

Okay,

So there's a book that I downloaded on Audible months ago,

Maybe even a year ago,

Called The 48 Laws of Power.

Yeah you had mentioned it and you said that there was some key points in there that.

.

.

Right,

It's by Robert Greene and I had heard about it that it was a very influential book and that a lot of inmates in prisons had read it and that it was actually banned in a lot of prisons because they learned these power plays,

Tools,

These techniques.

.

.

Like manipulation techniques?

Yeah,

Like manipulation techniques.

Well it wasn't really,

Let me just read what the big idea is.

So this is a comprehensive,

Well-researched thesis of timeless philosophies from Machiavelli to Sun Tzu and they've been applied in real life situations and by powerful figures like Queen Elizabeth,

Henry Kissinger.

So these are The 48 Laws of Power.

And I'm just gonna read you the title of some of the chapters and tell me what you think about them because as I started to read this I was like,

Every single one of these,

For the most part,

I think that you would have a huge problem with.

And I think this is the opposite of what we're trying to.

.

.

I was going in with the intent that this was going to be a good book and a helpful book and I actually,

Within the first 10 minutes of it,

I was like,

This is horrible.

This is the opposite of what I would be looking for.

It sounds like it's kind of going to be a teaching tool for what not to do.

If we have,

You know,

There is ying and yang,

So if we take the topic of what not to do,

It's going to help clarify what to do.

Right.

So number one,

Never outshine the master.

So like if you're a low-level employee somewhere,

Never look better than your boss,

Than whoever's in front of you.

Present your ideas in such a manner that they may be ascribed to your master or could be viewed as an echo of your master's thoughts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there's,

You know,

As far as that goes,

It's in being true to yourself and becoming who you want to be,

You can never dim your light to make somebody else feel better.

It's you know,

It just doesn't work.

And I mean,

The other person will get an ego stroke out of it.

Right.

You know,

And that's why it's an applicable principle in this book because,

You know,

I mean already I can tell this book is all based on playing people's egos.

Right.

And it has nothing to do with their truth.

So if you work with people's truths,

It's going to be more effective than stroking their ego.

You know,

So it's,

I mean,

Playing down is basically the opposite of what we want to teach because we are all about expansion and becoming more of ourselves and that's where happiness and fulfillment comes in.

Right.

So if you want to be happy and fulfilled,

Then dimming your light to make somebody else feel better is a bad idea.

If you want to maybe climb a corporate ladder in a subservient ass-kissing kind of way,

Well,

Then maybe what he said could work.

Actually,

I'm sure it does.

Number two,

Never put too much trust in friends and learn how to use your enemies.

Do not rely on friends.

They will never totally be honest with you.

They will openly disagree with you in order to avoid argument.

They will not openly disagree with you.

Enemies expect nothing,

So they will be surprised when you are generous and you can use them.

A friend will always stab you in the back.

Wow.

That's,

You gotta get some new friends,

Man.

And people,

I think what they do,

The reason that there's some truth,

And I'm starting to see like maybe an aspect of the way the show's going to go is explaining why he's saying what he says.

And it is,

It's all ego-based and it's all dysfunctional-based.

So if you want to manipulate people in a dysfunctional way within a dysfunctional relationship,

Then some of the things that he says are probably going to work.

I,

On the other hand,

Would rather have healthy relationships.

So it kind of depends on what your goal is.

If you want to have unhealthy relationships and try to manipulate people to get them to do what you want and things like that,

Then some of his tools are going to work.

But if you'd rather actually have a healthy relationship,

Then it's not going to work.

You can do things like improve your relationship with your friends.

You can go to certain friends with certain things.

You can develop honesty between each other.

Those are qualities of a healthy relationship.

So if you have a healthy relationship with people,

You could actually achieve what you want in a fulfilling,

Happy,

Friendly way with people you actually like being around.

Number three,

Conceal your intentions.

Use decoyed objects of desire and red herrings to throw people off your scent.

Use smokescreens to disguise your actions.

False sincerity is one of the most powerful tools that will send rivals on a wild goose chase.

Publicly declare false intentions to give misleading signals.

I mean that's self-explanatory,

How horrible that is.

Yeah,

It's just,

You know,

I mean,

You know,

If anybody wants to read a book that is going to benefit their lives in some sort of way,

And you know,

One of its major tools is be as lying and deceitful as possible,

Well,

You know,

I guess it depends on what direction you want to go.

You know,

The whole point about lying is that it's deceitful.

So like if you want anything good to come out of something in the future,

It can't be based on lies because as soon as it's,

There isn't,

As soon as you are labeled as a liar,

Then people aren't going to trust you whether it's the truth or a lie because they're not going to be able to know the difference between the two.

That's the whole point.

Now here's one,

Always say less than necessary.

Less than necessary.

Yeah.

Saying less will keep you from saying something foolish or even dangerous.

Once words are out,

You cannot take them back.

Keeping silent makes people reveal more about themselves.

This,

I mean.

.

.

There's some truth to that.

There is some truth to that.

I think that it's the intent that you're doing.

Like for example,

Dave usually says less than necessary to people that he doesn't know very well,

But it's not a power play.

He just doesn't like to reveal very much about himself.

Why would you do that?

Why would you put yourself in a vulnerable position?

But if you're doing it with the intent to hide things from other people so that you are more powerful than them.

.

.

One of the things too that they're not taking into consideration is the mastery in which these things are done.

I mean,

Like most people that are attempting to do these things aren't going to be good at it.

So it's going to come across as very insincere.

It's going to come across as awkward.

The energy behind it is going to come across incongruent.

People feel energy and notice body movements and pay attention to that a lot.

Oftentimes,

More than the words that are actually spoken.

So if you're trying to be deceitful and you're in that energy and you're feeling awkward because you're not comfortable with these things yet and all that stuff,

People are going to pick up on that.

It's probably going to send you in a direction that you don't want it to because they're going to sense something's wrong.

Now,

The other thing on that though is I decided that I wasn't going to lie 13 years ago or something.

So other than one lie,

I haven't lied in 13 years that I'm aware of.

But when I first started doing that,

That was difficult.

I needed to learn a new way of talking and being even though I was pretty honest compared to most people,

I think,

As a general rule.

But it's amazing the little things that you need to do.

Offering less information was one thing that I needed to use.

There were times where I would lie,

Where I could just not say anything.

And it became a very useful tool to not speak on subjects that I knew was going to upset somebody because I didn't want to upset somebody.

And they didn't really need to know what was going on inside of my head.

So I just was quiet more.

You know,

And I just talked less or changed the subject or,

You know,

There's different things that you can do like that that don't have a mal intent.

Yeah,

That's what it's really the intent.

Number five,

So much depends on reputation,

Guard it with your life.

Now I would agree with that to a point like your reputation is important,

But like do positive things.

Well,

That's what kills me is the guy says lie,

Cheat,

Steal,

Manipulate,

But make sure everybody thinks good things of you.

So here's the first wisdom in a nutshell.

So doubt and spread rumors about your rival is the first thing under this.

Yeah,

So it's,

You know,

You're destroying your reputation by trying to protect it.

Right.

You know,

Like in the four agreements,

One of the agreements is be impeccable with your word.

You know,

Your word is your bond.

It's what you have.

So it's,

You know,

That is important.

Your reputation is important and you develop a reputation on how you interact with people.

You know,

Like people,

You kind of teach people how to treat you by the way you interact in certain situations.

And I've seen it in my life where people are used to me being honest and people are used to me really,

Really speaking my truth without trying to hurt somebody else,

Without having any malintent.

So when somebody asks me something like,

Hey,

Can you do this or can you come over here and join us for this or something,

If I get invited somewhere and I say,

No,

You know,

I just want to stay in.

Nobody takes that personally from me because they know because of my actions,

It's nothing personal towards them.

It's not that I don't want to hang out with them.

It's just this is what I feel I need at the moment.

Whereas other people,

It's the opposite.

Somebody else says,

No,

I'm not going to go and everybody starts freaking out and going,

Oh my God,

Like,

You know,

Why don't you want to go?

This person never hangs out with me when I want them to.

And they all take it personally.

Whereas with me,

Because of my reputation,

They don't.

Chapter six,

Seven and eight,

I think are so,

I don't even think you really need to comment on them.

I just,

I'm just going to give you the titles.

Number six,

Court attention at all costs.

Number seven,

Get others to do the work for you,

But always take the credit.

And number eight,

Make other people come to you.

Use bait if necessary.

Yeah,

It's just,

You know,

Those,

Those are a good example of how,

You know,

It just depends on what you're looking to accomplish.

I mean,

It's,

See the problem with all this stuff is not that none of it will work.

The problem is,

Is that you're building a foundation on sand,

You know,

You're building,

You're building everything based on lies and deceit.

And then how can anything ever come,

Become good out of that?

Because everything that comes out of your mouth,

Eventually people are going to find out that you lie and then you're going to be a liar and then they're not going to trust you and then they're not going to want to interact with you.

And if they do interact with you,

They're going to know that whatever comes out of your mouth is a lie.

So it's,

You know,

Eventually it all folds.

See now number nine,

I agree with.

Number nine is win through your actions,

Never through argument.

Demonstrate do not explicate.

Arguing will only offend your superior,

Which I mean,

Sometimes you got to argue with a superior,

But learn to demonstrate the correctness of your ideas.

But then it says indirectly,

Choose your battles carefully.

So,

Yeah,

Some of that I,

You know,

Most of that I agree with.

I agree that you should do actions to prove your point.

Like live by actions.

Yeah.

Just,

You know,

Show what you can do.

So if you're showing by your actions that,

You know,

What you're doing is the best way,

Then,

You know,

That kind of negates all the deceit that he was talking about before.

Don't shine,

You know,

Let somebody else take the credit and the superior and all that stuff.

It's like,

Well,

If I'm taking actions,

How can I do that?

I'm very interested in what you think about number ten,

Infection.

Avoid the unhappy and the unlucky.

In the game of power,

The people you associate with are critical.

An infector can be recognized by misfortune.

They draw on themselves,

Their turbulent past,

A long line of broken relationships,

Unstable careers,

The very intensity of their emotions and the force of their character.

Gravitate towards prosperous,

Cheerful,

And gracious people,

Gregarious people.

Never associate with those who share your defects.

I would basically agree with that.

You know,

I mean,

It's there.

If somebody is destroying their life,

Then bringing them into your inner circle,

You know,

Why?

I mean,

We can't fix other people,

So it doesn't mean that we can't be kind and compassionate towards others who are struggling.

But yeah,

If somebody,

Everything that they touch turns to crap because of the things that they're doing and the energy that they're walking in,

I don't want to be doing business with them.

If everything that they're doing is failing,

I'm not going to get into a business venture with them.

Or a relationship.

Or a relationship.

Well,

Yeah,

It's true.

With the relationship thing especially,

We try to save each other because it's such an emotional thing,

You know,

Relationships.

And oftentimes people are like,

Oh,

Well,

It's not going to happen with me.

You know,

The most common thing is the cheating.

It's like somebody will be cheating with somebody and they're like,

Oh,

Well,

You know,

They're not going to cheat on me.

Like why?

They're cheating with you.

Why don't you think that they're going to cheat on you?

Well,

Because they really love me,

You know?

Well,

They probably love the other person that one time too or think they do now.

11,

Learn to keep people dependent on you.

I thought that was going to make you laugh.

Yeah,

That's like a foundational thing that Michael Bernard Beckwith talks about in his movie Spiritual Liberation.

And Mario Van Peebles was talking about it in that movie.

He says,

You know,

The theory is if you can keep people dependent by thinking things are scarce then you can control them.

Or you think you can control them.

I mean,

We find out that we really can't.

I mean,

That's the whole conversation about that was based on the idea that there's no military solution to terrorism.

So they said,

Like,

What happens is when you bring terrorists into the political system and give everybody enough of the rock bottom fundamentals of education,

Food,

Shelter,

Etc.

,

When you take care of the basic needs of an area,

Then terrorism dissolves in that area.

There's no military solution to it.

So that's what started the conversation about trying to keep.

But if you have people dependent on you because of a sense of lack,

Then you feel like you can control them.

Well,

I'll give you this if you do this.

It's,

Again,

It's what this book is teaching is how to manipulate dysfunctional relationships and things that ultimately don't work.

Like,

You know,

Like he's got a book on how to master ideas and situations that at their core will fall apart anyway,

Which is ironic.

These next three are some of the worst things I've ever said.

Use selective honesty and generosity to disarm your victim.

And asking for help,

Appeal to people's self-interest,

Never to their mercy or gratitude.

And pose as a friend,

Work as a spy.

I think the last one's probably the worst.

Yep.

Number 15,

Crush your enemy totally.

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's just the same mentality of lack and that I think the whole mentality,

This starts touching on the idea that there's not enough.

So if I'm going to have,

Then we have to make sure I take it from somebody else.

And we live in an abundant universe.

There's plenty of everything.

The problem is that only a small portion of the population understands this.

I mean,

If everybody understood that there was enough,

Everybody would have enough.

But there's only a certain amount of people who understand and actually feel and act as if they are abundant.

And those are the people who have abundance.

Use absence to increase respect and honor.

Create value through scarcity.

Make yourself less accessible.

Otherwise,

The aura you have created around yourself will wear away.

Keep others in suspended terror.

Cultivate an air of unpredictability.

That is straight up,

This is how you become a dictator or a kidnapper.

Yeah.

I think we got the point of this book.

Oh,

Man.

Yes,

And then there's one that I again agree with.

Do not build a fortress to protect yourself.

Isolation is dangerous.

If you cut yourself off,

I agree with the idea of that.

But then it becomes back about power.

Would you recommend this book to someone?

No,

I wouldn't.

Because it's exactly what I think the whole idea of it is,

Is how to be more effective in dysfunctional situations.

So that goes against everything that I teach.

It's a handbook to be a politician.

Because it's just manipulate,

Distract,

Try to be,

And all that stuff.

And that is the exact problem that has gotten us to where we are in our society,

Is because this is how people think that they need to act to get ahead.

And what happens is if people act in these ways,

They live in a society that is dysfunctional.

So you can get as good as you want as these things,

And you're never going to be happy.

You're never going to be fulfilled.

You're never going to be at peace.

So you might be rich,

But you won't be happy,

You won't be fulfilled,

And you won't be peaceful.

So then once you get rich,

You're going to have to try to figure out how to find those other things,

Because you're going to be rich and miserable.

We see it all over the place.

So it's just a matter of,

This book is a good example of what are we walking towards.

What are we putting our energy towards?

If you want to be happy,

Then you need to start taking the steps and walking into becoming the type of person that you would be happy with.

Nobody can walk around being deceitful and injurious to others and love yourself.

You can't.

It's impossible.

Nobody looks at the news and goes,

See that guy that killed everybody?

That's the type of person I want to be.

I would really be happy and fulfilled if I were to do that.

No,

That doesn't make us feel good about ourselves hurting other people.

So don't go out there hurting other people.

Start practicing other principles that you like.

If you think people that are honest,

They have a quality that you would like,

Then start being honest.

If you want to be a person that's happy,

Then look at somebody that's happy and do what they're doing.

If you want to be fulfilled and content,

Look at somebody that's happy,

Fulfilled,

And content and do what they're doing.

And I guarantee you,

Anybody that's happy,

Fulfilled,

And content,

Not who says they're happy,

Fulfilled,

And content.

People who actually are,

Are not doing any of those things.

So then don't do them because they don't work for that.

Now you can have people who are rich and miserable and hateful.

And if you want to become rich and miserable and hateful,

Then you do what they do.

I'm just looking ahead at these chapters and they just get progressively worse.

Like avoid gratitude.

And then the last one,

The very last one is assume formlessness.

Understand the fact that nothing is certain and no law is fixed.

So be as fluid and formless as water.

Basically what I take that as to be,

Just if you didn't get the hint from the last 47 laws of this book,

Be as spineless as possible.

Be a jellyfish.

Like I don't understand,

Not only could I not finish reading that book or listening to that book,

Which if you want it is available on Audible or Amazon,

But I don't see how you could look at someone respectfully that say that they like the book,

That they use the book.

Well,

It's because,

You know,

We all,

And this is really a good,

I think,

Good place to wrap up this podcast because,

You know,

It's important to say we spent the whole podcast basically tearing down the ideas of this book.

Well,

That's because I don't believe in them.

You know,

That's why it happened.

I mean,

It doesn't,

But this book is selling a lot of copies and people are getting some something out of it.

It's working for some people.

So the people that it's working for,

I mean,

Half of them are probably disillusioned and not really clear on the fact that happiness comes from within.

Like they haven't gotten to that point.

They're still kind of walking around unconsciously.

Because I do believe that the people that are using this book,

Their goal is happiness.

Their goal is success at least.

Well,

Right,

But they just don't,

They just haven't slowed down to look at what success is and how to achieve it.

You know,

I mean,

It's,

People think that success is having a lot of money until you meet somebody that has a lot of money.

And then if they're conscious,

If they're awake and they understand what's going on and they're happy,

Then they'll tell you that money doesn't buy happiness.

If they're just so out of whack that they haven't figured it out yet,

They might think that happiness,

You know,

Money buys them happiness.

And then you've got the people,

There's a large group that have the money that are miserable and they're like,

Oh crap,

I need to find fulfillment somewhere.

You know,

So you've got a lot of people reading this book that just don't understand what they're looking for,

Which is fine.

And then you've got other people who actually believe in what it's saying and this is the,

You know,

Life is a game and it doesn't matter who you crap on and all this stuff.

You've got people that actually believe that as a philosophy.

It's fine.

I'm not going to try to change their minds.

I just don't see life that way,

You know,

Because of what I've been through and what I've seen.

And I have my opinions and there's a whole bunch of people that,

You know,

I guarantee you we could get somebody to sit down and debate this book with me and they would tell me 6,

000 ways why it's right.

And you know what?

They have every right to believe that.

If that's where they are in their life and they want to walk down that path,

God bless them.

Good luck.

I'm going to get to write.

I'm going to be over here living life the way I think.

You know,

So I didn't,

You know,

I don't want to say this book is bad or there's anything wrong with it because I mean,

If somebody likes it,

Fine.

I've got no problem with it.

It's just not my thing.

This is not what clicks with me.

Reviews

Wow! That's a book I'll never read... Thanks though, it definitely shows what kind of mentality is out there... Really quite scary... 💜x

🙌🏻What a great podcast. Oh my can I relate. This is word for word my ex boyfriend who I had to separate from because he was always angry and miserable and manipulated everyone around him. And he loved this book. I never sat down to read it or review any of the chapters but this makes so much more sense now. Thank you for the talk, it brought me much needed closure on that chapter of my life. Blessed be Glenn and Ben. ❤️

Thank you for introducing this. It has given me great insight into the workings of minds that have tried to disempower and manipulate me. I know what warning signs to look for now! What the author and readers of the book must be unaware of is that, like happiness, true power comes from within (not from controlling what is outside of you). Perhaps you guys can write a book that is a direct response to this one, debunking it’s assertions and teaching readers how to attain inner power (which will give them what they really want). Maybe even create a course to go with it on insight timer! 👩‍🎓💛🙏 Kudos. -M

Interesting to listen. I’m on your side Glenn! Thank you! ✨✨✨