From Woe Zone to Go Zone

Beverly Hills psychologist, Dr Ashley Curiel, explains how she found me via Insight Timer and how mindfulness meditation is so effective as a therapeutic tool.

Transcript

Hi, I'm Tom Evans and welcome to another zone show. It's with great pleasure that I welcome Dr. Ashley Curiel to the zone show. I'm going to talk today about how to go from the WOZONE to the GOZONE. So welcome Ashley. Good morning Tom, Thank you for having me. And good afternoon from the UK. I've been looking forward so much to having you on the show. I love these serendipitous meetings and actually I love the app Insight Timer. They discovered me about a year or so ago when I didn't know that my meditations had the power that they did. And you reached out and said, Hi, I want to connect with the voice behind the meditation. And we tweeted for a bit and then we spoke and then you've been listening to some more of the meditations and it's been a real joy to get all this constant feedback from you. Now before we talk about the meditations, Let me get this right. You're a qualified psychologist and what's the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist? That's a fantastic question and I get that quite a bit. A psychiatrist has gone to medical school and a psychologist has gone to graduate school. Yeah, Typically psychiatrists are focused on medication management although some will do therapy as well. So that might further muddy the waters a bit for some folks. They may see a psychiatrist with therapy and medication. But for the psychologist, We focus on things like therapy, We do assessments, We measure brain functioning through paper and pencil tests, Auditory tests and the like. So we do not prescribe medications. I'm a psychologist. Fantastic. So what was your journey then from a small town in Iowa to Beverly Hills to doing this fantastic work you're doing now? Well, Thank you. I mean, It probably reads like the Beverly Hillbillies or something. If you think about it, You go from Iowa to Beverly Hills, That's quite a journey. And it was. Growing up, I thought, Oh, I want to not be in a small town. I mean, As a kid, I always thought I want to live in a big city, Which made me sort of an outlier in a small town. Most people were pretty content with not being in places like New York or LA. But I wanted to venture out and see the world. I was always very curious. So I went to school on the East Coast and then ended up working in entertainment and doing theater and then ended back in L. A. And then after being in Los Angeles and working in entertainment for a while, I thought, Oh, Gosh, You know, I wonder what's next. And I thought, I'm going to look into psychology because I'd always been interested in psychology and the way the mind worked. And as I worked in entertainment, I was just fascinated by how everyone's minds worked. I was around all these creative minds and it was very stimulating. And so that's how I became a psychologist and it came full circle. And now I go and do some work with people who are in entertainment. Now that I understand their business, I really enjoy working with them in my private practice. We know about the entertainment industry through the entertainment industry itself. And it's the stereotype of what we see with L. A. , Correct? Or is that just what we see on telly and in films? Oh, There's probably some truth to it. I think that's a really good question. Hmm. My parents, When I visit my dad, Always remarks that Los Angeles is a very image conscious city. So I guess it does have that reputation. But I think people really have capacity for depth. So if we stay at the surface level, It might appear very image conscious like it does to my father. But when you spend more time with people and you get to know them, I think there's always that capacity for depth there in each person. And it could be that it's difficult to show that. I think a lot of people who are in the media, I've had people remark, You know, To wake up the next morning and you just don't know what you're going to find written about you or said about you. That can be pretty terrifying. So I think that people are probably pretty cautious and maybe don't let others in as much because it makes them maybe more vulnerable. So that probably contributes to seeing things more on that surface level than having that depth. But then I do believe the depth is there and I have seen the depth in people. Without obviously giving any client confidentiality away, Do you end up, Do you work with people that are struggling with image and how to manage it? I do. And I see it, It's more pronounced in people who are probably in the spotlight more. But I see it even in people who aren't in media. There's always that sense of how do I come across to others when they are being observed, It's heightened and there's a lot of concern about, Well, I'm being portrayed, I'm concerned I'm going to be portrayed in this way or being led in one direction or another. And it's very difficult for people. I think it's hard to disconnect your work life from your personal life when they're so intertwined like that that happens in entertainment or when you, When people think that they know you. Maybe that's not your own self perception. I think it gets really confusing for people. And then do you find then the work that you're doing with the improv then? Is that kind of linked with this sense of perception? And does that help people manage if you like the persona that might be on stage and the persona that's off stage? That's a good question. I did start an improv therapy group and we use improvisational principles. To bring up topics of discussion for the psychotherapy process group. So the improvisation principles and therapy principles are very closely aligned and include things like supporting one another, Active listening, Clear communication and accepting mistakes. And I think it helps people when they're in a group, They get to see each other and that can lend itself to a better understanding of self. They can almost observe, They observe others, They observe themselves in that environment and maybe what's difficult in relationships. So I think it can lend itself well to learning about how you are as a person, Your own identity through these interactions with other people and not in the sense that I'm trying to be like them or to be someone else but you often learn through relationship. And I think that's the really great thing about a group therapy setting and when we add these improv principles to help people facilitate these experiences, They get a perception of themselves that they would not get in individual therapy when they're sitting on the couch and they're just talking with me. That's a very, I guess you'd say maybe a closed circle. They're just two people. It takes a lot of pressure off and it's much easier but then when they're with others, They have to confront how they may appear to other people and the other people in the group might say, Hey, Well I thought that was great or I don't think you messed that up at all. You thought that was bad but I thought it was wonderful or I noticed that you do this. You look away in conversations and that maybe I would feel like you're not connecting with me. So I think in that group experience and in that improv therapy experience, They really get to have these interactions with other people and I think that can add depth to their own personal experience and understanding of themselves. And so it strikes me then that this kind of therapy isn't just restricted to somebody that's in the acting profession. It could help anybody in their personal relationships and also in business relationships. Actually and actually we tell people they do not have to have any acting background and a lot of people don't. One thing that we were very mindful of when we created the group, The improv therapy group is that part of the effective nature of using improv is that it can evoke anxiety in people. People think of improv and a lot of people I'd say you should, You know, You should think about joining my improv therapy group and the first response was, Oh my gosh, I just feel like I could throw up right now. I don't have a lot. I just think the thought of it makes me want to throw up. And I said, Well that means you should do it and bring a bucket. So some people, You know, This is knowing how much anxiety is too much anxiety but for some people being in a little bit, In an environment that evokes a little anxiety is helpful to them. If they have social anxiety or generalized anxiety or they have difficulty communicating with people, Being in that group can be very helpful. And so that said, A lot of times actors are really good at maybe turning that on or turning that off and maybe engaging and if they've been doing improv or acting for a long time, They might not be in a situation where they can feel more, That would, You know, Those improv exercises might not really make them feel more anxious so it might not evoke the same experiences that someone who isn't an actor might feel. So it actually might be just as effective or more effective with people who don't have an acting background because they haven't learned potentially that improv is not scary. And would it work in a mixed environment where you've got trained actors and non-actors together? I think in my current group, I don't know if we have any professional actors in my current group. It's a mix and I allow, I purposefully allow a mix but I think it does work better when they're more in the beginning stages. If they are an actor, If they have less improv experience, It probably is helpful for them because they're going to have more feelings about it. We have an improv teacher in the group who teaches the improv principles and he's been doing improv for decades so the exercises that we use in the group, I mean he doesn't have feelings about it, He could probably do them in his sleep. So when you get people at an earlier stage in the improv process, They're going to have more feelings about it. Their brains are going to be on fire going, Wait a minute, You gave me five rules. I have to think of something that starts with this letter and I have to make eye contact and open body posture and that's going to pull a lot more for them versus someone who's been doing it a long time. Like you might think of someone who's learning to ride a bike. You know when someone learns to ride a bike, They're like oh the foot here and this pedal and balance and they're thinking of all of these things to try and just go forward and I think that's similar to how it is in the beginning with improv. You have all these things on your mind. You're just trying to move forward but just like the bicyclist, Once they get it, They're cycling. They're not thinking about where their feet are as much or they're balanced because it's become second nature. So it can work with people who are actors but I think it's even more effective for those people who don't have that acting experience because it sort of plunges them into the deep end of the pool a little bit more and it can evoke more emotions and a deeper experience for them. But that's not to say that actors can't do it. A lot of actors don't necessarily do improv in their work and so this could be really good for them. That's interesting. Now thinking about improv and thinking about the zone show, There are no rules on this zone show and also I've just realized that people always say it's such a natural conversation and one of the reasons for that is I only prepare the opening question, Opening statement. Actually in this case, I didn't even do that as you probably noticed. But we do have one rule, At least like our improv rule, Is we talk about zones and I'd love to explore with you this notion of how we can take someone who's in the woe zone into the go zone. And also in improv, One of the things you do is you sort of key off things, Don't you, From the last person who's been saying it. I've noticed, And let me know if this is true or not, There's two questions in one, Is that if you spend time thinking about what you're going to say next as opposed to listening to what the other person's saying, Then that must be pretty difficult in an improv situation to know where to go. Oh, Absolutely. That is a fabulous observation. There is a principle known as yes and in improv. And what it means is that whatever the other person says, You have to yes and it meaning you have to affirm it and build on it. You have to be paying attention. I think that's where sort of meditation and improv coalesce because you have to be mindful and in the moment. And that's one of the great things about doing improv. You can't be planning it out because if you do, I mean watching those scenes, I do take improv classes myself. And when you watch the scenes with someone who has a preplanned idea, They have an agenda and it's kind of like males being scratched on a chalkboard. It's painful because they're not supporting the other person. But we often get locked in this pattern of behavior where we, We think about maybe for weeks what we're going to say in a conversation, What we're going to do in a particular situation. And then we're not in that present moment with that other person. And they might say something completely different than we anticipated. But if we've had in our minds for weeks, Hours, Days, What we were going to say, We can't respond appropriately and then we've disconnected from that person. So I think then an improv, You have to be present with them. You have to take what they give you, Listen actively and then support it. And if they say we're, This scene's in a laundromat, You're in a laundromat, That's what you're doing. You're not like, No, I wanted ice cream. Well, Sorry, You're in a laundromat. And if you say no or you even subtly negate it going, I wish I weren't here. I wish I had gotten ice cream. That's a subtle way of negating. And that I think is why improv and therapy were worked really well together is because we can see in these micro exchanges and people in the group that maybe you're doing that outside of the group. Maybe you're slightly negating people in your life. You're just maybe subtly saying no and you don't even really understand or realize it. So that is really important. So being present in listening to what they say and then building on it. Um, So yeah, That's one of the basic rules. There aren't a lot of rules. And, And uh, My co-instructor last night said, You know, You there, There is no getting it wrong, Right? There are just some guidelines and sort of lines at the edge of the road to keep you in place. And the yes and principles, One of them is to build on that. And I think going back to the first question of whoa zone to go zone, I love that question. And I think part of the reason I developed the improv therapy is part of my practice was because I would sit on a couch, They would talk to me maybe week after week. They would talk about wanting a different experience in their life. They wanted something, But it maybe didn't always happen. And I thought, I want them to get into their bodies and out of their heads, Out of this preparing zone, Thinking about it zone and into a more proactive experiential zone. And so I really like our improv therapy group because it gets people in their bodies and out of their thinking analytic minds in rigid patterns that they have because they can't be in that pattern and be in the group. So then they get an experience of themselves that's different. I got you. So to play the game, So yes and so when you're taking someone from the go zone to the go zone in the same way that in improv there are a few general rules. So you'll have rules to do with your professional practice and that sort of stuff and how you behave with clients and how you greet a client and how you take a client through a process. Is it important that you might have a general idea of what the issues are and how to help with them, But you don't pre-plan the answer and you almost improv the solution and the journey you take a client on? Absolutely. I think that is probably what would be terrifying to most psychologists. That's where my theater background comes in handy. I'm more comfortable with being in that moment with them and not knowing because I don't know what they're going to say. And last night was the first night for our new group and I thought, Gosh, It's just as much improv for me as it is for them because I have no idea what they're going to bring to the group. I don't know what they're going to say. I don't know how they're going to react to the exercises. I just have to be with them and be present and see what happens and then know that I've got the therapy skills in the back pocket and I've got my improv teacher next to me and theater skills and we just go with what they bring and we stay with them in the moment and see what transpires and that's exciting and I think it probably to most people who wouldn't be used to this kind of work might be a little terrifying I could imagine because it is so improv like the process for me as well as for the participants. We're on a very parallel process journey. You obviously know when someone's in the WO zone. How do you know when you've got them to the go zone? Oh, That's a fabulous question. So yeah, I definitely know when someone's in the WO zone. You see that repetition of patterns, The feelings of being stuck, Of not really feeling fulfilled and then when you see them get into that go zone I start to notice that things start clicking a little bit for them. It could take a number of shapes. If it's someone who feels maybe not validated in relationships they might start meeting people who connect with them better. They feel more strongly about, They feel more supported. If it's a career thing maybe a new opportunity opens up or it could just simply be that they are starting to see a situation differently and I think to your meditations when I think of this of sometimes it's just reconceptualizing something and just being open to what is actually there. Sometimes maybe the solution is already there or a new opportunity has been there this whole time but they've been closed off to it. So when someone gets to the go zone I see them sort of firing on all cylinders and in many areas depending on what was a challenge for them before and they start moving forward in different ways and you have those like you call them the light bulb moments where something switches on that was not on before and they come alive. There's an aliveness in them on a sense of momentum, Motivation, Liveliness that just was maybe muted before. Interesting. So it's almost like a knowing in a way. It's like an intuition that you sense this. I can ask you then when and how you discovered this whole world of mindfulness and meditation. Oh that's also a very good question. I'm trying to think when I first came upon it. One of my earliest experiences was at internship. I was living outside of Philadelphia and I was working in a VA hospital and they had a mindfulness expert come in and teach mindfulness and there was just something in my intuition that said this is what you need, This is what you need and I was trying to figure out how to take a course. I thought I needed you know to go somewhere to learn it, To take a course on how to do it but I knew I needed it and that's why I love your book The Authority Guide to Practical Mindfulness because when I first started meditating it was intimidating and they brought in a speaker to the hospital and we did like a couple of hours of mindfulness and he walked us through it and I was convinced and I wanted to do more but I wasn't sure how and so with your book I think that's great. I recommend it to almost every client. Oh thank you. If I don't recommend it is because they're probably already meditating daily. That's the only reason they would not tell them to go through it right now. Even those people I kind of say hey if you want a refresher because I love that your book walks someone through. You only need 10 minutes a day and it can be straightforward and I think when I started it felt so mysterious and I knew it was something I needed but I wasn't sure how to get it but I kept plugging away and then I came back to Los Angeles to do postdoctoral work and then they have the mindfulness awareness research center at UCLA and I took a course there and it was six or eight weeks and just absolutely loved it and part of our assignment was to do the you know every day you would do a guided meditation exercise and each week it would be different and I noticed how my mind opened up how I became calmer. I'm typically a much more I tend toward anxiety or being you know tightly wound and I noticed that that started to abate and I would watch how my mind would work and instead of buying into all of the anxiety I would stop and go oh that makes me feel anxious. This is that interesting. So I didn't jump on the train of the emotion and just go with it. I started to wonder about it a little bit and just in a couple of months I noticed how my relationship with my mind changed and like any habit I sort of fell off the wagon so to speak on my meditation practice but in the past few months have been doing this regularly and mostly with your meditation since that's when I reached out to you. I noticed that the two meditations that spoke to me that most were just for today and just for tomorrow and I would listen to them every day and they were at the top of my most played list on insight timer. The other ones were great too but I thought I need to listen to Tom. I need to listen to Tom today and I listened to them and I thought I'm gonna reach out to Tom Evans and when you wrote back I was so excited and thrilled because your meditations have made the biggest difference for me in helping me to make friends with my mind and to not fight against it to accept what it's doing and to just notice it and I noticed it today. I thought oh look at it go there it goes thinking about this that or the other and I think that helps me to relate to my clients to sit there with them and as they struggle with their minds in trying to go from woe zone to go zone and as they get stuck almost like a car getting stuck in the mud like how do I get out of this. I've been there I understand what that's like and I can be there with them in that experience and use multiple modalities to get them to go zone and one of them is the mindfulness. I will recommend the authority guide to practical mindfulness and I'll tell them it doesn't have to be scary if you just make peace with your mind that's like the foundation that's one of the very first steps if you are at peace with you things will start to open up and then you will build an awareness because if you're not aware of what's going on for you you can't change it. I think that keeps people in a woe zone because they they know they're uncomfortable with something but they may not know what it is or what to do about it so I love introducing meditation because I know firsthand what that's like to develop an awareness of ah this is what's going on with me because if it like I said if they don't know what's going on it's very difficult to change anything so I really like the first step in mindfulness. Oh I'm gonna do a big yes yes and then now so well one thank you for eulogizing about the meditations and I guess it's just occurred to me because you know I've not studied mindfulness have not been to an astronaut I've not studied Buddhism it is all made up and it's all improv. You're improving every day and I love that. Yeah all the meditations that they're all improv they're like I basically get into this into this channeling mode and and I guess that the translate that I'm in when I'm recording is the translate that gets induced in the person that listens but one of the things that's in them you probably noticed is it's a sense of humor because I don't know about you but I find quite a lot of meditation is quite worthy and almost pseudo religious so I've kind of felt it'd be it'd be fun to put a bit of comedy in there. I love that it's no pun intended funny that you should say that but in my practice I use humor a lot and actually humor is one of the highest order of defenses that it's the help one of the healthiest defenses that's very you know psychobabily but it's one of the greatest tools we have as humans to get through tough spots. Now we can overuse humor and I'm probably guilty of that I have to be mindful that I don't overuse humor because that is my go-to defense but I think we have to have levity in a situation and on my wall in my office I have New Yorker cartoons about therapy because I think they're just hilarious and the psychiatrist who has an office right next to mine she'll say I hear laughing in your office and I wonder oh my gosh I wonder what they're doing in that office that they must be having fun and I think there's a maybe a misconception that therapy has to be all about you know doom and gloom and sadness and there's certainly a fair share of that we don't deny feelings and and people are going to have all kinds of feelings but but humor I think reaches people and it's healing to laugh and it can lighten the mood and I think we've all seen people there's that mix of a sort of a tragedy comedy there's sometimes these moments where you you know you you laugh until you cry or you cry so hard that you start laughing there there's sometimes a fine line between emotions and humor I think has a definite place at the table and it's great I think it to be used in therapy and I think it works in the meditations because I think it helps to connect people people connect with humor and it doesn't have to be a heavy serious experience whether it's therapy or or it's meditation well it's funny because when you were talking about the laundromat before all I could think about was if I was in that improv I'd be saying oh I feel I'm in a right old spin at the moment and perhaps I should go out and going for a quick dry somewhere or something of that nature so is metaphor also something which you play with oh absolutely especially in in individual therapy we we speak in metaphor I speak in metaphor a lot I think it helps us to put words to our experience sometimes it's difficult to find the exact word for how someone feels I feel this way and they'll say and oftentimes when they're having they're struggling with putting a word and pairing it with an emotion they speak in metaphor we use that all the time and it's it's a way for us to both communicate because I think our right brains are connecting in that moment they're having an experience they share it with me in metaphor and I say yes I understand what you're saying and there's some sessions where we're very connected on the emotional plane and there are almost not a lot of words even that will be said there there are some folks with whom I work that you're just connected on that emotional level and you might say a metaphor and you just sit with that and there that brain has a way of knowing it it's deep and it's visceral and metaphor helps you to get there I believe and I use it quite often in my practice I would say probably every day maybe even every session there's a metaphor that will come up related to someone's experience so that's very interesting because I know that after you took the 10 meditations that come with the authority guide to practical mindfulness you then took the heartful living program which is actually that is all designed on metaphor it's designed on this metaphor about these chakra centers in our body after some with some practice you can actually feel and sense them and and and use them but for most people the idea of chakras is a metaphor how did you find that journey from your root through to your crown? I loved that feeling that you could really connect with each chakra point and I especially the heart chakra you can feel that and I know when we spoke we sort of played with that heart chakra experience and that is really cool and I enjoy being in session I there was a moment in a session where I like purposely thought about my heart chakra and sending out that positive energy to the other person in the room I think that's always really really great I love that and the one thing that struck me the absolute most as I was going on the journey through the heartful living course was the idea of the different mind centers and obviously in my profession people default to the brain so is the brain it's always in the head and things are in your head speaking of metaphors it's in your head but I when I see people stuck in a woe zone I have found okay oftentimes there's an associated ambivalence and I had an aha moment when working with people that when there's ambivalence what I'm noticing is that the mind centers aren't aligned and the heartful living course opened that up for me that I don't need to sit and fight struggle back and forth with them and make a pro-con list about why can't why can't you move through this problem there's a sense that I think we would sit is gut heart and in the mind the gut heart brain mind centers if I'm hoping saying that correctly and that the gut mind is ahead and I see in some people that gut mind is very strong on that sense of intuition and they'll have this foresight about something and not really realizing go I don't know why I had that feeling and then something happens and I go off it was your gut mind and we explain it in that way and I go oh so this I'm actually in tune with myself and for the other folks who maybe aren't in tune they say well I know I shouldn't be doing X Y or Z but I just can't stop doing that or I can't break this terrible pattern whatever it is and we talk about well you have ambivalence and they'll say okay yes yes I both want and don't want the same thing and then I see that it's actually connected to that gut heart in the brain not being aligned there's a sense of maybe subconsciously they don't want that change that they they think that they want consciously they'll come in the opposite I really want to change this I really want you know a better job or better relationship but there's subconscious of something going on and I think now I've started to conceptualize that as having the heart and the gut minds not aligned with the brain and so if we can get in there and see what's really at the root of that what's going on behind the scenes that we're not acknowledging that is underlying this ambivalence and then when we can kind of clear that up I think that helps to move people out of woe and in to go. Wow that's great to hear from from someone with your amazing qualifications so because when I designed I designed it in a kind of generative concept I never thought about it is therapeutic. Yeah I did I noticed it when I was doing heart for living and then I would go to my practice and work with people because I had sort of struggled like gosh this ambivalence you know the theme would often be ambivalence of people wanting to make changes not able to and then when you said the theme of woe zone to go zone I thought yes I see that a lot and then when I realized that the different minds in the body it all kind of came together to me to give me a different metaphor in how to work with people and that it's not we don't have to be locked into a tug of war we just need to sit with ourselves and figure out what all of the mind centers really want what is it's really going on and if we have that clarity I think it's going to be much easier to move forward knowing than struggling against oneself. Yeah and I think that's the same of course when you had your heart and your gut are in alignment then we become unstoppable. Absolutely I can I feel that from your work I've seen in my own life how things just move forward things maybe I was even stuck with didn't know what to do when I became aware I became open and all of those shocker points that opened up and things were aligned things flowed better I went into my own go zone. Well and also we were talking just before we started the broadcast that sort of halfway through the the ten meditations with the book you had the inspiration to write your own book. Yes I do I'm working on that now and in the very generative brainstorming stage and did not anticipate that I had had in the back of my mind how I want to write a book I want to write a book I would like to do more writing I love to write and halfway through Heartful Living I had a meeting and someone said I think we should put together a book proposal I thought there it is that's what I've been looking for and been sort of planted the seed and it happened in the middle of the Heartful Living course. And can you share what that book's about just now? I think I should wait because we're still fleshing it out but it will involve talking about how people put themselves into situations I think from the inside out that limit them. Fantastic well when that book's out will you come back on the zone show and we'll talk about it? Yeah I would love to I would love to I can't wait to get started and digging in deeper with it and writing it and I would be happy to share it. Fantastic well Ashley it's been a real joy and a pleasure one to get to know you through this lovely serendipitous route through Insight Time and our hearts go out to the wonderful people at Insight Time for the work they're doing getting the whole world meditating one person at a time and for free as well which is just absolutely wonderful and thank you so much for your advocacy and your sharing it's given me some great confidence that this untrained mindfulness guy from England is on to something and has got something to share with the world. You absolutely do you have a lot to share with the world I've been continuing to take like all of your courses and thinking what is my next journey with you so I'm definitely also thankful to Insight Time I recommend them as well for all my folks to get them started so that they can have a positive experience like I've had so thank you so very very much. Fabulous well I suspect to know this is the first of many conversations so thank you thank you so much for taking us through that journey from WOZONE to GOZONE today and if you want to find you and get hold of you where's the best place to find you online? I'm at drashleycuryell. Com so just d-r-a-s-h-l-e-y-c-u-r-i-e-l. Com and you can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter Dr Ashley Curriel. And we'll put all of those links down below all the things that we've mentioned out in the show so great to talk to you Ashley and chat again soon I'm sure. That sounds wonderful thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Zone Show I've been Tom Evans and I've got some great news to share with you my new book the Authority Guide to Practical Mindfulness is available and it includes 10 10-minute guided meditations to get you into the zone so come to my website www. Tomevans. Co to find out more.

Reviews

Another great interview. Thank you Tom🙏🏼❤️

Great stuff. Tom, I've just bought your book and told all my friends about it! 👍

Very enlightening podcast. I will look into the principles of improv. Will check out both your websites as well. Thank you!😊

Interesting perspectives discussed in this podcast.