50. Growth In Failure: Ditching Perfectionism And Embracing A Messy Life

In this episode of Spiritually Hungry, Monica and Michael conclude their series on self-sabotage, this week exploring how striving to be perfect actually disrupts our lives and leads us to judging ourselves and others. Listen as they discuss the real benefits of leading a ‘messy’ life, one in which we abandon the illusion of perfection and embrace our failures as opportunities for growth.

Further readings:
Mental Immunity by Andy Norman
Bird By Bird by Ann Lamott
The Pursuit of Perfect by Tal

Transcript

Judgment is so dangerous for both the speaker and also the one on the receiving end of it. And it is a choice, A mental choice of what you allow to come in and what you don't because the consequences are far reaching. As much as you judge other people, The judgment that you bring towards yourself is tenfold because you really are not able, And I've learned this because I used to be very judgmental and mostly to myself. When I worked on the self part and I removed that, Then I stopped judging others because usually it's like a lack that you have from within. And we've said this before that I don't believe somebody who's really content with their life has the time or the inclination to be judging other people. Yeah, It's funny I wrote this quote down. Remember, People are probably not happy in their own lives if they're busy discussing yours. This life system is an up and down system. You fall, You get up, You fall, You get up hopefully higher than we before, But nobody is ever meant to live a life where they haven't failed, Where they haven't fallen. Welcome to the Spiritually Hungry Podcast, Episode 50. The big five oh. Officially, It's older than you. It's funny today actually somebody, I'm having my birthday next week and somebody texted me today, Is it a significant one? Are you turning 50? I said, No, No, No, I'm only turning 48. I'm really, Really young. Aren't they all significant by the way? Yes, I thought so too. But he's actually older. I don't know if he's about 10 years older than me. He said, So am I. Yes. So we're still at a very young age for podcasts. We're at a very young age anyway. Who was I speaking to about that yesterday about age? We should do actually a podcast on age and how that feels and what it really means. But we're not talking about that tonight. Okay, So this will be the last of the three part self-sabotage episode. For now, Because it's so important. And again, Yeah, So important. This is at the crux, Right? And this is why- I love that you're saying that because you're like self-sabotage originally. Right, Because again, Like I spoke last time, From a different perspective, It's something that I've been thinking about a lot in my entire life. And the elements of it were relatively foreign, At least in my experience, Not to most of the world's experience. But the health of the mind, Which is really what this is all about, Is really the most important factor into our fulfillment in life. Because we were actually listening to a different podcast this week. I never listened to anything but it. I knew you were going to say that. Okay, Call it a radio show. Sure. But this person was talking about how people actually- and that's why I love talking about even mental health and mental health awareness because there's a lot of shame in getting help for the mind. But with every other aspect of our body, Of course we check our blood pressure and our cholesterol and our weight. And if something isn't feeling right, Like a hip or a knee, Maybe it needs a replacement. You do, You go to measures. You understand that there are repairs or even care that needs to be done. When it comes to the mind, There is a stigma or shame that like, Oh, They lost their mind or oh, They're really struggling. They're not that strong. Look what's happening. And I really want to debunk that because that is actually the most important, I think one of the most important parts of our body, Which we rely on for almost everything. And I think not to be negative about it, But we all have- Problems. I don't know what you mean, Problems, Aspects of our thinking that need to be corrected. And- I think that's the simplest way to put it. And there's nothing embarrassing or scary about that. No, But this is what the thing is. A lot of things are preventable. Like the way we think about things, If we're particularly negative, We actually change different pathways in our brains. By our behavior, By our thoughts, Different parts get bigger or smaller. And science talks greatly about this. So I think it behooves us to actually explore it so we can know what we're doing. For sure. And actually, I don't want to preempt your introduction, Which I usually allow you just to have the instructions with me. But there's actually a very interesting book that I started reading and I'm often reticent to speak about until I have a strong opinion about the whole of the book. So you're writing your. . . This is your disclaimer, Basically. Disclaimer to a book, Which I think is very- Might be good. Very, Very interesting so far. And it's called Mental Immunity. And the author is Andy Norman. And his thesis is that just as the body is often taken over by germs, By bacteria, By external foreign forces that take over the body, And sometimes it's a big deal, And sometimes it's a cold, And sometimes it's COVID, And sometimes it's death, And sometimes it's just a small illness. But we all accept that there are these things, Right, That enter, These pathogens that enter into our physical bodies. And we often have to find ways to fight them, Either on our own or with medication and so on. And what he says is that we don't, When you say we, Humanity as a whole, Don't give enough focus to the germs, Bacteria, Viruses that are in or enter into our mind. You're speaking metaphorically or- No, No, No. And he actually makes the point that this is not a metaphor for mental health or disease. He's like actual- But this is. . . No, No, No. He doesn't. . . No, Not that there are actual, Like the COVID, For instance, 19- That attack the brain like four and a half meters, Because you lost me there. Right, Right. By the way, That does happen, Unfortunately. Yeah, But I don't even want to think about that. But that there are thought processes that behave as viruses on our brain, And that so much of the negativity individually created and collectively created by humanity is an effect of these mental viruses, And that he believes that humanity as a whole needs to give much more focus and understanding of these mental viruses that take us over. And really, And again, Like I said, I haven't read through the entire book, So I'm not giving that probation to the whole book, But I thought it was a very interesting idea. But by the way, I think fear is one of those things, Actually. Everything we've spent. . . And that's my point. . . . Is that everything we spoke about are mental viruses. Yeah, Because now, And people then use that to really attack your mind. And then next thing you know, You're paranoid, You're thinking about things you never thought about, You think you're under attack, And then you behave in ways that are not true to who you are. So I'll quote just a small part of what he says. He says the- You're bypassing my whole intro. No, No, No, No, No, No. I'm so kidding. The approach centers on an unsettling idea. Bad ideas are mind parasites, Pathogens that quite literally infect minds. Happily minds have immune systems, Operations that keep bad ideas at bay. Sadly, Those systems don't always perform well. Sometimes bad ideas overrun them and thoroughly disorder minds. In fact, A mind's defenses can collapse under certain kinds of stress. And just one more quote before your introduction. We've seen that in people for sure. Yes. The rational faculties that when healthy align our collective beliefs with reality, What then makes the rational animal so irrational? What makes us so irrational? Here Norman explores the vulnerability of all complex systems to infection by agents with their own ultimate goals. Some of them are small organisms that infiltrate our tissues and cells, But some of them are small ideas that infiltrate our minds. You know what's so interesting is that, And I spoke about this in the last episode when Josh was born, How I decided to challenge my helplessness. It was the first time I did that, But it's funny because I don't think I even told you this. The fear that I had was I'm aware that minds are fragile and I need to protect mine. This stressor can make me or break me. And so I was really mindful to make sure that whatever I was feeling that was negative, I actually started to meet that with kindness and compassion for myself and allow process, But really I wanted to protect my mind. Interesting. Yeah, I never told you that. So, So- Because I don't think people are aware of just how fragile any part of their body is, Right? That's why we do these self sabotaging behaviors like smoking or drinking and excess or overeating or whatever it is. And the scary but true reality, And this is I think a stark statement, But one that we need to be aware of constantly in order to overcome is it as I sit here now and as you sit there and as our listeners are listening, We all have mind viruses. They might be small, They might be large, But that's what they are. The thought of helplessness, The thought of self-judgment, The thought of fear, For the most part, These are viruses that have entered and often we feed them. Sometimes they overtake us and sometimes we control them. But when you understand your mind in that way, It at least makes you much more aware of, Again, Like you said, The fragility. And fragility doesn't mean that the hospital, The God forbid, A person goes crazy by allowing fear or self judgment to enter. I look at it more like Humpty Dumpty cracks. But that exactly, Exactly. And that everything, And that's really what we're talking about in these podcasts is that what are the things that we can do? Accept that, Know that. And so how do you then build mental immunity? And I think this is so important. Like I said, I think maybe one of the most important parts of our life's work, Each one of our life's work. I think that's where we're going to go. So you mentioned judgment and most of us have been judged in a harsh manner. I certainly have either outright or we find out about it later. Like this person thinks, I got feedback I think two days ago. Somebody like I don't really even know at all, That doesn't really know me. And I was like, Okay, For me, I took it as like just a reminder of just really not caring about any of that nonsense. But even if we think that a lot of people just never get past certain things, Like a parent who says something thoughtlessly to their child that is judgmental. And then the consequence is the child will never attempt certain things like being creative, Athletic. They won't think they're coordinated, Scholarly, Musical, Et cetera, Because they accepted that judgment is truth. So judgment is so dangerous for both the speaker and also the one on the receiving end of it. And it is a choice, A mental choice of what you allow to come in and what you don't because the consequences are far reaching. And again, Not to stop your introduction, But I just want to underscore something important, Very important you just said, Is that they often think it's often child to parent and child to parent, Whether the child is 10 or 50, It often has the same impact. The reason why we cannot allow ourselves to be on the receiving end of that is not just because it's unkind and not right for a parent to say such things to their child, But because it is a mental virus that we are allowed. It's almost again akin to the person saying, Will you allow somebody with COVID, Especially if you have preexisting conditions to cough on you? Of course the answer is no, Not because I hate the person or I even know them. It's just that I don't want that virus entering into my system. If and to the degree that we do, And we all do to some extent, Because we don't want to hurt our, If it's a parent or we don't want to hurt feelings or we're just afraid of conflict. But if you sit there and have your parent, For example, It could be a friend, It could be a spouse, It could be anybody say, You know what? I never really thought you were so smart anyway. I didn't think you could really go to a great college. And all the thousands of ways that parents often thoughtlessly speak. Or even you're lazy. Exactly. You're a couch potato, Whatever. The reason why we cannot allow that is not just because we're strong people. I'm not going to let somebody speak to me like that. It's just simply because you are allowing them to give to you a mental virus that will affect you maybe for a day, For a week, For a month, Maybe for the rest of your life. And I think that switch, I think, Because again, Most of us don't like conflict and certainly not with people we love or care about. But I think this puts in stark relief the choice. Would you like if you have, Certainly if you have a pre-existing, Would you allow somebody with a terrible disease cough on you? Of course the answer is no. The irony here though, If you think about it, We're talking about diseases and this and that, Parents often, Especially when their kids are a little like, They have a fever. Oh my God, They got a cold, Another cold. They've been, Had colds all year or whatever it is. Obviously the attention was there much more pre-COVID. But if we even paid like an ounce of that amount of attention and worry to our judgments and our words, Oh my God, Can you imagine how different our world would look? How healthier our people, Our children, Our adults would be? That's a beautiful point. And again, I should underscore you, But the fact that really that would shift, I think so many of parents' consciousness around their interest and words to their children at all ages. That's a great illusion of this world. Because no parent will say- It's like focus on the wrong thing. Not that it's wrong, But like you said- No, But overly focused. Yes. The emphasis. Only. The importance is usually on the most unimportant. Exactly. And it's the distraction and it's the trick of the negative side to say, Okay, Make sure you focus on these other things that yeah, They could be something so you don't actually focus on something that really is actually happening and dangerous. It's a very important point. And again, No parent will take a vial of the flu and pour it into their kid's mouth. It's almost worse to say to your child, You're really lazy, For example, And so on and so forth. And if we're able, And again, This is not something I always say this, But this is not something that even you hear in a podcast and wow, Everything changes. This is real work, But that's where we need to start thinking. I actually had a friend growing up many years ago, But she used to label her children. You know how I feel about labels. They're so limiting and it really makes me annoyed quite honestly. So she had triplets and she's like, This is my smart one. This is my athletic one. Like each one had it and I was like, In my mind, And I think I eventually told her. Did she ever tell the kids? Yes. Oh. Out loud in front of them. I was like, And I ended up telling her, I'm like, But you know what? Maybe there are going to be so many other things. And in fact, In my own childhood, It's funny because we're three sisters and my mom, And of course innocently, She had no agenda here, But she decided what we'd be good at. So I was the one that got the dance classes and tap and ballet and jazz. And my older sister was the only one that could take piano lessons. And the youngest was into sports and painting, Like soccer and paint. And that's what we actually, You know, I mean, My older sister gave up the piano, But like, And actually I like the one she chose for me because I'm so, I love dancing. But I, Again, Like with our kids, Right, We let everybody try all the same things in whichever one they connected to. Even all the sun tried gymnastics and it was not his thing. And piano, But he thinks he's really good at both. Does he? Bless him. Yeah. All right. So back to judgment. So I think many would say they understand to some extent that it's some extent the spiritual consequences of judging others. We know it's not something you want to do. However, We all participate to some extent. And also the trick here is we, As much as you judge other people, The judgment that you bring towards yourself is tenfold because you really are not able. And I've learned this because I used to be very judgmental and mostly to myself. When I worked on the self part and I removed that, Then I stopped judging others because usually it's like a lack that you have from within. But I love this idea because Kabbalah teaches us that where we place our consciousness is what stays with us. And we talk about this a lot. And it explains that when you look at another person and you see darkness in them, You awaken that darkness within yourself. So if today, For instance, Any of us spent our day judging ten different people, Seeing what's wrong with their beliefs or their attitude or their behavior or their choices, What they're doing wrong. Right. We do this with friends and family members. Then we've brought ten elements of darkness into our own life. And I don't think that people actually think that ever when they're like, Oh, They don't know what I'm thinking. It's pretty harmless. It didn't do anything. But actually, If you understand that you're just inviting more of that into your own life, I think that's a healthy wake up call and a really good place to start. And I think it's interesting, Too, Because I see this a lot with couples I work with. I see this a lot with friends. They don't ever think that, Again, What I think, What I do, What I say, Which is cause, Creates something in our life, Our experiences, Which is effect. So and this is the trick that we have every day. We might read headlines or we're thrust into situations with difficult people or there's daily responsibilities that agitate us. And they give us plenty of reasons of judging. We all we're not short on material to judge other people. And they might feel even justified, But they never are. So let me give you an example. Let's say and we've all been here. Let me give you one thing. Your child shared with you their life plan that they have. And in your mind, It will only cause them suffering. And if they're suffering, Then ultimately you're suffering. Another example, Your work colleague has a new purchase plan that will not only solve nothing of the problems that are existing in the company, But it's going to cost more and create more problems for yourself. Another one is you have a moral dilemma with something someone close to you is doing and they refuse to see any perspective other than their own. All of these examples in our mind justify a reason to have a judgment because we know better than what they're doing. And we have a burning desire to say something immediately and loudly without any restraint or restriction. So the flip side of that, Though, Is if you express to your child that they shouldn't do that, Or you tell your colleague that the purchase is irresponsible, Or you discourage your friend from doing what they're doing or making the choices they're making, You may think you're helping them, But in fact, You're just judging them. Because I think this is how we get stuck in judgment and we justify it being okay. We think that we are right and we're coming from a place that we know better, A parent to a child. We see them going down a path that we could see where that could be destructive and they don't see it. We think we're right. But it's easy not to see your child fully in that perspective if you're only thinking about what you want from them. It's hard to separate your own desires from a person's desires, Especially when you think you're right, And that leads for an opening of judgment. You look a little confuzzled, Michael, So let me keep going until you're clear. But the question we have to ask ourselves in these moments is what I'm saying, Is it helpful? And am I coming from a place of true care? Because I think if you ask yourself those two questions in any given situation, It's going to stop you from actually judging a person. So for instance, When your child comes to you with a big idea for a life plan and you instantly oppose them, It's likely to do nothing but make them want to do it more. We've all had that. If you express to your colleague that their decision is irresponsible and they're not going to leave that conversation feeling good, They're also not going to include you in any conversations in the future. If you advise someone close to you on their life choices by imposing your own morals onto them, You're only going to be damaging the friendship and creating space. So clearly the judgment part is in a way. And also, I think the thing we say is that we have this thing of like, Well, I mean well, So then they should receive it well, But it doesn't actually work like that. And I want to invite all of us to think about how many kind and supportive things you actually say in a day instead of the negative things that might come out of our mouths or the judgmental things that might come out of our minds. So if you turn it around, Has there ever been a time in your life when you excitedly shared something, Any decision or idea with someone only to have them say something meaner and consider it back to you? Have you ever had that? Yes. By the way, Again, We think we're helping. I don't like this phrase of tough love. I remember the first time I was receiving end of that is when I was anorexic and I went to stay with this couple and I was closer to the woman. But we had dinner together and he asked me a few questions, But really the point of the questions was really to tell him like, So he'd have enough meat, Enough information so he could tell me what was wrong with me and how I was selfish and blaming my parents. And by the way, I was like starving myself to death. So I don't think that approach was great, But I really understood that this tough love thing is also an excuse to really get our agenda going. Do you not? Do you have something to say? No, No, I'm not sure. This is self-sabotage? Yeah, Of course it is. It's self-sabotage because it's judgment. And when you judge other people, You actually stop from connecting with them in any way that's real or meaningful or purposeful. Okay. Because we're so invested in- You're talking about judging yourself, Right? Self-sabotage- Is not just judging yourself. It's also judging other people because what happens is then you are so right. You're busy judging another person. You're not really creating relationships with them. Like a husband and wife, Right? I met with a couple this week and every conversation they have, Every exchange, It's this dynamic. They share something and they're going to tell them why it's not going to work or why they're wrong. So, Judgment, It's not just self-sabotage when you judge yourself. If you also judge the people that you're supposed to be closest with, Whether it's a child or a partner, Business partner or romantic partner, What is actually happening here? You're stopping the flow of the relationship. You're stopping the growth. You're stopping the health of the relationship, All because you're sure that you're right in what you feel and what you say. No, I think it's a really big one. It stops you from living a good life, A happy life because you're so busy finding flaw in other people. Now, Where does that stem from? It stems from the relationship you have with yourself. Again, Like I said, You really cannot judge other people harshly unless you're doing that to yourself. That part is far worse. It's more painful and it is even more judgmental. What happens is you look externally and that's what bullies do. They look at other people and they make fun of them and they point out their own insecurities, By the way, Because if they're pointing it out in other people, People are not going to pay attention to them. They're going to look at the people they're making fun of. It works that exact same way. Maybe we're not bullies, But this idea of judging other people is a way to deflect how we really feel about ourselves and how we judge ourselves. No, I'm thinking about it. I'm just thinking, I don't think that because the other elements of sabotage- But you've never judged yourself. Like you don't- I look inside, Right? No, But that's different. You're curious. You're curious and you explore. You've never been somebody who's really been- And by the way, You don't judge other people either. But why? Because you don't judge yourself. I'm telling you, I know this well. As a Virgo, I was really, I mean, I thought, My God, The way I was so hard on myself. I was so like it was either be perfect, Which we're going to get to in a minute or you're nothing, Right? That was how I lived for 20 years and 24 years of my life in that state. You're either perfect or you're nothing. Because that's internal. That's internal. So what happened? Then it was easy, Really easy to find flaw in other people because I was so well-versed and I was doing it all day, Every day to myself all the time. So when you practice that, It's like a fine tuned machine. So now it's like, Okay, Well, I'm exhausted doing it to myself. Now it's eight o'clock at night. Now that person over there, You know what their problem is? And then you just, You're able to see it. So I do really want to actually stress what I shared about how we damage our closest relationships because we're looking for fault and we're looking for flaw. And of course we don't mean it, But it starts within. And then of course it gets so exhausting at some point, You have to push it out and you look externally like, Okay, What is everybody else's problem? Because if everybody else has a problem like the bully, Then no one's going to see my imperfection number one and no one's going to see that I am not as confident as I'm pretending to be or whatever it is. Interesting. Right. Certainly most of the people that we don't enjoy being around. Speak for yourself. Are people who are judgmental. Oh yeah. Right? I mean, We've unfortunately encountered. . . No, I don't think at this point we would even entertain an evening like that at all. It's interesting, But I wonder because again, And it doesn't make me a great person, It just happens to be not my nature to want to find fault in others and judge them. But honey, Nobody wants to do that. Oh, I think there are people who want to do that. I think it only starts with the people that really want to do that is because those are the ones that are really suffering with how they feel about themselves. I don't think that there is anybody who does it for any other reason, Honestly. But I think what the point is, The point is that to the degree that we are, And I think it's important for our listeners to ask themselves that question, How much time do I spend judging other people? As a matter of fact. . . Yes, And that's what I said. By the way, The only way you do that is ask yourself how many kind things did you say in this day? Yeah, Or at least I think the stark view of how many people do spend time judging. And I know some people I'm thinking up top of my mind, I think if you asked me, They would like, I'm just trying to help. Right? I'm just trying to help. Yes, That's what I said. What? Yes, Exactly. All under the guise of, I have a good intention here. But it's interesting because in 1930s, This is three generations of teachers back, My father's teacher's teacher. No, Because you didn't understand anything I said and now you just said what I said. Okay, Continue. I just want that to be on record. Okay. He wrote that the reason why he began teaching was because he noticed that especially people who are involved in spiritual pursuits were using it more as a way to judge external, Judge other people. And that his purpose in teaching was to get people so involved in their self-betterment that they don't have the time to look externally. And I think what you're saying to our listeners is really take the time to think about how much time do you spend, Whether it's with your family, With your friends, With those around you judging. And the net effect of that time spent judging is going to be a less fulfilling life for you. And then that's the point. Yes. And not just that, It's in the places that are most sacred to you. And that was really at the crux of my point. It's in the people ultimately that matter most to you. It's in the relationships, The exchanges, Things you worked very hard to build, Like friends, A partner, Children, That through this lens of judgment, It kind of just destroys it. And of course that's not the intention, But you need to be aware of what's really happening. That's an important point, Monica. Yes. Thank you, Michael Berg. I'm always happy to share any ideas with you. No, Because again, Just to be right, Because I didn't- But it's foreign to you. No, Honestly. I'm not even. . . Of course you know the idea of judgment. And this is what really actually excites me. You study a lot of things and you understand them in an elevated way and the transformation of it, But there's certain things that you actually haven't experienced firsthand. And thank God, Right? And I always say this, I'm almost getting emotional about it. For me, You were like a breath of fresh air because I lived all those things. And you were like one of the healthiest people. You were the healthiest person mentally, Emotionally, Spiritually I had ever met actually. And I was coming from such a space of this, All this, This heaviness, This judgment, This need to be perfect. And I just like, It was almost like you were the window of myself. I didn't know a way out. So it's interesting for me. And that's why I like talking about these things and I like our banter back and forth because you've never actually experienced some of the things firsthand, But that also allows you to be able to help remedy it because you're not marred by it. So yeah. I'm getting good at this crying on our podcast. It's also your birthday soon. So maybe I'm appreciating you in this moment a bit more. So anyhow, You know I love Brene Brown's work and she has something interesting to say about this exact facet of judgment. She said, Research tells us that we judge people in areas where we feel vulnerable to shame, Especially picking folks who are doing worse than we're doing. If I feel good about my parenting, I have no interest in judging other people's choices, Which is true I find. If I feel good about my body, I don't go around making fun of other people's weight or appearance. We're hard on each other because we're using each other as a launching pad out of our own perceived shaming deficiency. And similar to what she's saying, When we place judgment on another, It's because there's something that we need to recognize within ourselves. That person is like a mirror that can reveal something that we're unwilling or perhaps unable to see, But now we can. When we bring that awareness to our judgments, We see what we're actually doing is trying to repair something within ourselves. But I think that's the shift that we're trying to get our listeners to understand, Right? All those people that you are judging, Stop for a second. And again, A bully is an extreme example of that and they're not capable obviously of doing this self-awareness. But look at the people who are judging and ask yourself, Why is it that you're judging them? What is it in you that you're not feeling secure about? Do you feel bad as a parent and that's why you need to insult their parenting skills? Or the body thing like Brene Brown shared. Or just you're not happy with your life and if you have to find where everybody else's life is just as bad or worse than yours. Well, That's the Instagram trolls or anything on social media, Right? You see people and whether that's true perception or persona of what's happening, Right? They look at it and they're like, Oh, With that person because it's awakening something in them where they're feeling left. And again, And we've said this before that I don't believe somebody who's really content with their life has the time or the inclination to be judging other people. Yeah, That's funny. I wrote this quote down. Remember, People are probably not happy in their own lives if they're busy discussing yours. Yeah, Totally. And also I like this idea too because there I would always speak about this. He would say that scientists were baffled. This is many years ago. But although people have dormant cancer cells, They couldn't figure out why at the time some became active and some remained inactive, Right? And the question is what really creates chaos or joy for us? What's the difference in each person's reality? It's the same if we're looking at cancer cells. We all have hibernating forces of positivity and negativity within us. And the trigger of these forces are if we are judging or we're seeing good, Right? And that really dictates which direction your life's going to go in. It determines if you're going to have a life filled with chaos and lack or joy and fulfillment. And another saying I think we all fall into this trap is like, Oh, I'm a really good judge of character, Right? And while that might be true, We need to be careful so that we don't just see somebody as an angry person. They may have issues with learning to express themselves, But they're not an angry person or to label people. Well, Some people are. Right, They are. The few. The few. But the idea is what you see is what you're going to awaken in that other person and what you're going to awaken in yourself. I remember when our oldest, David, Was in the fifth grade. Remember he had this teacher. And she called us in one day and she was like, I need to talk to you about your son. He's irresponsible. He's not focused. He doesn't bring his homework in. I mean, The list was long. And I started to get very irritated. And of course I advocated for him and I defended him. But when we got home, I was like, Oh my God, Is there a problem? Remember? Do you remember this conversation? Vaguely, Vaguely. I remember the meeting in the school afterwards. But what I found is that I started judging my own child for a bit. And we spoke about it. And we talked about how what you see is what you awaken. So if we're going to look at him and see him as lacking and irresponsible, We're just going to awaken more of that within him. So instead I did the opposite. I focused on what he was good at. Yeah, He's not and he's still not. He's not detail oriented. He doesn't care about things that most people care about. But when he does, He's super focused. He didn't care about your class actually, Lady. So instead we focused on the positive and she came to us four months later and she's like, I don't know what happened. He's a different child. He's now doing all these things. And it was like night and day. And it's really because our emphasis changed instead of focusing on the lack, We focused on what was good. Absolutely. Absolutely. Anything else to say about judgment? I have a lot about judgment. No, Like you said, I think for most people it's a source, It's an unknown source of a tremendous amount of lack in their lives. Like you said earlier, People and this, And again, There's always the extreme cases and unfortunately we know people like that who spend most of their life looking externally and judging other people. Saying what's wrong. Right. But what we're saying is that every single one of us to the degree that we find ourselves, And really I would ask any one of our listeners, Look at your past 24 hours, Look at your past week, How many times were you looking outside? How many times did you share a judgment even to yourself about somebody else or to somebody or to other people and realize that in obvious ways and non-obvious ways, Those actions, Those thoughts are actually stealing fulfillment and contentment from your own life. Because I don't think most people will say, Okay, Well, It's the wrong thing to do, I'll stop doing it. But if you realize that that type of thought and those types of actions and words actually just at the end of the day really harm you. It's one of, As you said, Rightly so, One of the most powerful ways with which we self sabotage our own lives and our own fulfillment. There's this quote by Hanari de Balzac. He said, When I measure and compare everything against the yardstick of my vision and ideals, Everything falls short because this isn't an ideal world. It's a real world with real people growing, Making mistakes, Learning and evolving. Judgments block energy and hold negative patterns in place. I release all judgments I place on myself and others. And then remember, The more one judges, The less one loves. Love yourself more and judge yourself less. Beautiful. So, I want to quickly jump to perfectionism. Mother Anne Lamott describes perfection as the voice of the oppressor. It will keep you cramped and insane your whole life. And this may sound intense, But it's a true sentiment. The point is, Though, What if the oppressor is you? Right? And this is exactly what happens when perfectionism seeks into our lives. It's the root of everything that we perceive to be wrong. And I told you earlier, For me, It was so painful and so limiting. I mean, If you look at a child learning to ride a bike or do anything new, They're not worried about looking perfect or graceful or getting it right. They're just trying to figure out the craft, Right? And master that. But as we- They're not judging themselves. No, They're not. They're just super curious and excited to learn something new. And it's so beautiful. And we all start out like that. And then eventually, For many different reasons, We get to this place of like, I need to be perfect or I'm not going to do it at all. I'm not even going to try. We have this fear of appearing anything less than being perfect. And this one, Again, For me, I struggled with this a lot because it was very much ingrained in how I was raised and who I was and what I thought was important. I was very much a perfectionist, Especially as it came- So first, It was on myself, But then when it came to our children and parenting and motherhood. And I remember I used to- Sunday night dinners were big for us. We'd go out to a restaurant. And in my mind, I had this view of what the night would be like. Everybody's smiling and happy and clean. And we'd be laughing the whole time, Like this vision, Right? Of course, We'd get there. Some of them would be fighting. One broke a glass on the table. Everybody's grumpy or in a mood. And I'd be like, Oh my God, It's the worst night ever. Why? Because in my mind, The ideal night, What I had envisioned was this like perfect Brady Bunch moment, Right? So and then of course I got past that and then that perfectionism went to something else. And I think I'm now in a state of like, I really love a messy life and I'm excited about that. That took a lot of work and a lot of effort. I think many still live in this state of really seeking perfectionism. And Tal Ben-Char, I love, He's a Harvard professor. He wrote The Pursuit of Perfect and other books. And he describes realistic optimists- He has a new book out. Why would she get it? I haven't read it yet, But- He describes realistic optimists as optimalists, Which I really liked this kind of differentiation. He said, Optimalists are not those who believe everything that happens is the best, But those who make the best of things that happen. And that for me, And not even knowing this, That was the big shift that I actually created and helped me heal and not become that, Stay in that state of mind. He said, The key difference between the perfectionist and the optimalist, The former rejects reality while the latter accepts it. In truth, No person is 100% of either and we may be optimalists in some areas of our lives and perfectionists in other areas. So clearly we all have work to continue doing. So one of my favorite teachings from a great capitalist name was the Kaskarebi and he said. . . And this is actually a long story in this, But he would often say that there are angels in heaven, Right? People who do everything perfect and right all the time. I hate that word perfect now, By the way. I'm allergic to that word. But that we, Humanity individually, Are not meant to be perfect. We're meant to actually, As he put it, Live in the mud and from that mud, Take out a spark of light. And when you look at your life in that way, Where not only is it not possible, Which is true, To live a perfect life, But that actually our gift is the imperfection within which we live. And from that mud or imperfection, We take out some sparks of light. And it's interesting because there's a phrase in the Talmud that says, You never understand wisdom until you fail at it. You never really understand wisdom until you fail at it. Which means you have to live it, Apply it, And fail at it. You have to live it, Try to apply it, And then fail. And I can tell you- Try again. Almost every single day, I'll get a call or an email or a text from somebody who will say, I did this thing and I'm really upset with myself. How can I correct it? The first thing I say, The first thing I say is, You're not meant to be perfect. And actually, Often the big problem is not that we've made a mistake because this is life. This is actually our work in this world is to fall and get up, To fall and get up. The problem occurs when first, When we think we're supposed to be living perfect lives, But then second, When after a fall, We beat ourselves up. And as a matter of fact, There's an ancient teaching regarding, There's a story in the Torah, In the Bible about the Israelites who received the 10 commandments of the tablets at Sinai, And then they make a mistake. It's called the golden calf, Those who know the story. And there's a great Kabbalah's name is the seer of Lublin. He says that the problem and why they lost their lofty level is not because they made a mistake or fell, But because they beat themselves up. They became sad about it. That's when they lost the wisdom. That's when they lost their connection. And when you think about it in that way is that the mistake in life is not the failure or the falling because that is actually, Again, That's not a bug that's actually intrinsic to the system. But when you beat yourself up, When you become sad about the mistakes that you make, When you become despondent about making a big mistake. And I think this requires, Again, As we spoke all the way in the beginning, This is a virus in our mind. The thought that I am meant to be perfect and that as I live my life, A mistake or a failure or falling is a bug in the system or something that should not have happened. Why did it happen? And that is, Again, That is actually a feature of the system. A thousand percent. I'll tell Ben-Shah says that there's three exercises to do of how to get away from the grips of perfectionism, Become an optimalist. He calls it PRP actually, Which now for me means platelet rich protein, Something I've done. But he said, When you feel down, Grant yourself P, Permission to be human. Right? So- Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, But it's not supposed to be permission. Because permission almost like, It's okay. It's okay. This is actually you at your most optimal falling, Is you at your most optimal. That is actually that this life system is an up and down system. You fall, You get up. You fall, You get up, Hopefully higher than before. But nobody is ever meant to live a life where they haven't failed, Where they haven't fallen consistently. Well, If you ask a perfectionist what life's journey or the expectation should look like, It would be a straight line. If you ask an optimalist, It's going to be a squiggly line. It's the understanding that it is going to be up and down. There will be life quakes that will be messy. The next one he says is- I don't mean to cut you off again, But not only that, You will never grow unless you embrace your failures. Those drops, Which are really your highs. What you think are your lows are actually potentially- The beginning of your highs. And if you took two people, One lives an impossible life of perfection and one lives like the rest of us failing all the time and getting up, At the end of their lives, The failure filled life is the one that winds up being much more elevated than the perfect life if it was even possible. It's not possible. So, The second one is our reconstruction. It's teaching you something about how to approach future things. The third is P, Again, Perspective, Which is having obviously a bigger picture of the grand scheme of things. Like this one disappointment, This one failure is not the end of the world. In fact, It is something that you need. So I do want to- With four kids, There's not a lot of children's books I haven't read. I think we're all very familiar with the writings of Theodor Geisel's work, Also known as Dr. Seuss. But it's interesting. So sometimes when I read her books I've read before, Depending on where I am and my state of mind, I hear them differently or I almost hear them for the first time. So the one story that stood out to me recently is, Oh, The Places You'll Go. It sets out brightly with a young boy heading out into the world looking forward to adventure. But then Seuss proffers some sobering news to our young reader. Suddenly, I wasn't really reading to Abigail, But I was reading to myself in this moment. It says, I'm sorry to say, But sadly it's true that bang ups and hang ups can happen to you. And yes, This indeed was a shocker for me in my 20s. Of course, I had this belief and I said this in last week's episode that if you're living a life of spirituality, Nothing bad will ever happen. So imagine my shock and horror when I was like, Oh my God, What's this? So then he goes on to say, I'm afraid that sometimes you'll play lonely games too. Games you can't win because you play against you. The profundity there as well. It's an old adage, You're your own worst enemy. But it's never been said bouncier or funnier, I think as Dr. Seuss put it. And then, And I think that we actually, These games come up a lot for us with our feelings of unworthiness and our feelings of self-sabotage. He goes on to say, And when we persist in these games, You can get so confused that you'll start to race down long wiggled roads at breaknecking pace and grind on for miles across weirdish wild space headed, I fear, Toward a most useless place. The waiting place for people just waiting, Waiting for a train to go or a bus to come or a plane to go or the mail to come or the rain to go or the phone to ring or the snow to snow or waiting around for a yes or a no or waiting for their hair to grow. Everyone's just waiting. It's just like, It's so again, This bouncy rhymey fun kind of way. And as I'm reading it, It's like rhyming. I'm like, Oh my God, This is life. So this self-sabotage has no business being part of it. Absolutely. And one other point which is related to this is, As you said before, Quoting Talbot and Shachar that the perspective that this, Often when you are right after having made a mistake or a failure or a falling, Suddenly you believe this is either forever or this is the worst thing that's ever happened to you. Or it's a punishment that you deserve, All of which are dead ends. And actually Daniel Kahneman speaks about this. He quotes that the things that you're thinking about are never as important as when you are thinking about them. And so there's a fascinating and I would say silly, Crazy, Stupid research that they did. So they took a group of students and they were going to give them each of them a test of their sense of fulfillment of life, How their life was going. One group came, All of them were told before taking the test, Filling out the form, That they have to make a copy. What they made a copy of was unimportant, But they wanted to get them to the copying machine. 50% of the people when they had made the copy came back, Started writing out the form that lists questions to answer how fulfilled they are, How their life is going. 50% of them found a dime on the printer. They found that the people who found the dime had statistically filled out the form as if their life was statistically better than the other group. Obviously it's not true. It's just that because the second they started, Before they started filling out the form, They found a dime. Now their whole perspective about their life has changed. They're lucky. That's how silly we are. And I think this- Good example. . . . It's crazy is what it is and what this should tell us. And again, And everything we've spoken about in this episode and previous two episodes, None of this makes any difference if you just hear it. What I hope we accomplish to some degree is to undermine the sabotaging viruses in our mind. If you think for a moment that normal people who are filling out these forms, You and I fall into that category, Looked at their entire life differently just because there was one positive occurrence, Tiny one, A dime before they filled out the form. That's how falsely we often look at our lives. And all these self-sabotaging, Especially perfectionism, Viruses have to be undermined, Have to be changed, Have to be worked on. Otherwise, We fall into the same habits, The thought habits, The thought viruses that reside in our minds. So I hope that, Again, Like we often mentioned, But really for us, And I find that for myself it's very important to keep reminding myself of these important ideas, But that for our listeners, Especially these past three episodes, Especially this episode, That there are pieces of understanding, Wisdom, Maybe awakening, Inspiration, But these are not thoughts to hear and be inspired by and change for a minute. This is a life's work. Our mind can be elevated to a place where it self-sabotages less, But only if it is a constant work that we are involved in. And not just life's work. I mean, The topics we choose to speak about is because this is what is plaguing our listeners. And we want you to have, All of us, To have a happy, Purposeful, Meaningful life. And these are the things that distract us and take us away from that. So, We hope you enjoyed listening to this podcast as much as we enjoyed recording it. Although we haven't gotten to letters over the past two episodes. That's your responsibility. I'm sorry, I apologize. Please keep sending your letters, Comments, Inspirations to monicaandmichaelatkabala. Com. We read them, We are inspired by them, We share them with our listeners, They are inspired by them. So please make sure you keep sending them. Also, Apple podcasts, Write reviews, Five star reviews. Share this podcast with as many people as you can. By the way, You can send video recordings too. It doesn't have to be a letter. Any which way you want to communicate. Absolutely. And. . . There I added some flair to your speech. Very beautiful. Make sure you keep sending your questions, Comments, Stories to monicaandmichaelatkabala. Com. Make sure you keep spreading the word of this podcast and giving five star reviews. And again, Especially as I said this episode and previous two, Such important wisdom that we've collected and shared. So as always, I was going to say, I hope you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed recording, But more important than that, I hope you are moved to use it. Inspired. Inspired to use it on a consistent basis. Bye. Bye