29. The Illusion Of Perfection: How To Embrace The Messiness Of Life

In this episode of Spiritually Hungry, Monica and Michael delve into the benefits of leading a ‘messy’ life rather than striving for perfection at all times. Listen as they discuss how we can learn from our mistakes, and how to adjust our consciousness to the point where we embrace them as opportunities for growth.

Transcript

There's a reason why you find yourself lost.

I might have made a mistake in the map,

Maybe I didn't follow my ways,

Maybe I didn't follow Google Maps,

And I found myself in a mistake.

But in reality,

I needed to be in that mistake.

The reason people have a hard time accepting their mistakes,

Learning from them,

Owning them,

Is because of how they feel about having made them.

Mistakes are a necessary part of living life.

You can never,

Should never,

Beat yourself up where you are,

Because you needed to be there.

Life is making mistakes,

But the choice is to grow and change from there.

You will make mistakes.

It will not be perfect.

It will be very messy,

But it will be profoundly worthwhile,

And that this is your process,

Right?

You go back to the word perfect,

We are not complete,

We are not finished,

We are very much in the middle of a process.

Welcome to Spiritually Hungry Podcast episode 29.

So we thought to make sure we're all on the right start in the new year,

We wanted to talk about something that I think many of us fall prey to in pursuing our goals and our to-do lists and our resolutions.

There's a quote I like and it's by Albert Hubbard,

And he said,

The greatest mistake a man can make is to be afraid of making one.

Perfection.

Oh,

To be perfect.

You know,

This is something that I have spent most of my life trying to be,

And then the second part so far,

Trying not to be.

And it's funny because whenever I start to read up on perfection again,

I'm like,

Oh,

Still got some of that,

Even though if I compare it to where I was 20 years ago,

It's night and day.

But I think seeking perfection is something we all get caught up in because it's an aspect of our lives and our day-to-day activities at the office,

At home,

Wanting the perfect relationship,

The perfect child,

The perfect grades,

Wanting the perfect wife or perfect mother,

Perfect husband or perfect son.

There's some aspects in lives where perfection is still something we strive for.

And this only leads to self-sabotage.

And we've talked about self-sabotage before,

And I don't want to go off on a tangent,

But let's just look at the word perfect for a second.

I like to see where words derive from because I think it gives us a context or a window into why we do the things we do and how we get there.

Like why is being perfect something people strive to be?

So perfect actually comes from the Latin word perfectus.

And that simply means to finish.

If we go further back,

It actually is beyond Latin and it goes back to Greek and it was teleos,

Which means completeness.

So in essence,

Perfection means to complete.

So why has it evolved into something we all strive for?

I mean,

Think about it,

Right?

To complete what exactly in life?

You've got the smile on your face.

I can't read you just yet.

And I'll give a few more examples in society,

Right?

We live in a world where perfection is something that is applauded,

Right?

Having the perfect body,

The perfect life.

We look at high gloss magazines that have been airbrushed,

But we think that that's how people look without any help or promised the whitest,

Brightest smiles.

We see that on billboards or abs in 90 days or whatever it may be.

And this madness that we try to attain is that it's just within our reach,

Right?

If we do X,

Y,

And Z,

We're actually going to be there.

We're going to be perfect in whatever we're pursuing.

And that's a universal idea.

But I think what we want to invite our listeners today is this idea of living a messy life,

To live it very messily,

Which means that part of that is you actually know that you will make mistakes.

You can expect them.

You can expect failure.

And you actually enjoy that messy part of life,

Which in essence is process.

Right.

It's interesting because the way I think my perspective is a little bit different in that I don't think I ever consciously desired perfection,

But I do think that there is a great fear of making mistakes and certainly a great fear of making big mistakes.

And those are probably two sides of the same idea.

But I think that just for myself,

As I go through my life,

I don't think perfection was ever something that I even thought of desire and to attain.

But the thought around making mistakes,

Having made mistakes,

Will I make a mistake?

That's something I think that certainly in my own mind takes up a lot of the space.

And I think for many of our listeners as well.

I think pursuing perfection for some,

For me at least,

And for others I've spoken to is that it's a way to avoid making a mistake.

Because if you're perfect,

Then you're kind of protecting yourself against the burn of failure or somebody saying,

Hey,

You really could have done that better or criticizing or judgment or whatever comes with mistakes usually.

So for me,

I was like,

I had this belief system that if I'm perfect,

Then it's going to bother me.

I'm going to be safe.

And of course it's an illusion,

But I think it's a way to avoid making mistakes.

Yeah,

I agree.

But what I would say then is that there's probably two thoughts,

Two teachings that help me navigate mistakes,

The way I view mistakes.

We all make mistakes.

And I think maybe that's where it starts.

The idea is that actually the way the system is set up and the reason we are in this world is not to be perfect,

But rather to live within the messiness of this world.

Our good things,

Not such great things,

Our mistakes and our failures and from that to grow and from that to reveal light.

So I'd like to share two teachings.

One is a very maybe simple idea,

But very powerful one.

And that is there is almost a dual consciousness with which we need to live all the time.

We are in this world of action.

We're meant to be doing,

We're meant to be growing,

We're meant to be changing.

At the same time,

There's also a greater reality that is helping us navigate,

That is actually bringing life and the world into being.

We call that the creator.

We call that the light of the creator.

Some people like to call it the energy in the universe.

And you really have to surrender to some degree to that understanding.

I am not in 100% control of everything that's going to happen,

Nor in everything that will manifest in my life.

I have to do the most.

I have to push myself to be growing,

To be changing,

To be assisting others and so on.

So if you accept that,

Accept that where you are is really an effect of two forces.

Wherever you are,

If it's a good place or a bad place,

One of them is your choices.

And second,

A greater force and a greater vision for your life.

So what that actually means is that,

Let's use an example,

A person made a mistake,

A big mistake,

A small mistake,

It doesn't really matter.

And he or she found themselves in a place where they would rather not be.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

What I'm positing,

The way we live our lives in the spiritual teaching is that how you get somewhere,

That's your responsibility.

But being there is actually always for your benefit.

So that yes,

We do things that we should or we shouldn't do,

And we should always be becoming better and doing more of the right things,

Less of the wrong things.

But where I am,

Wherever it is that I find myself as a result of a positive decision or even a result of a negative decision,

That place I need it to be.

For example,

There's a spiritual concept that every place has an energy.

This room has an energy.

This city has an energy.

And there's a purpose for getting lost.

The Kabbalists teach that if you're driving somewhere and you get lost,

There's a spiritual reason.

Maybe there's a spark of light that you need to connect to,

There's a person that you need to connect to.

There's a reason why you find yourself lost.

And that I find is such a both liberating and powerful idea.

I might've made a mistake in the map.

Maybe I didn't follow my ways.

Maybe I didn't follow Google maps.

And I found myself in a mistake.

But in reality,

I needed to be in that mistake.

And that writ large for life,

Meaning while it is my responsibility to try to always be making the right choices to the degree that I can,

Doing the right things to the degree that I can,

Where I find myself,

I need it to be.

And when you really internalize that concept,

Then yes,

You might look back and say,

Next time I should probably pay more attention to the ways or to my Google maps,

But I am not disappointed or upset that I spent a half hour lost in that city because for ways that I might know and for ways that I might not know,

I needed to be there.

It was for my benefit to be there.

I agree with you completely.

I think for many,

And I don't think that you necessarily go to that place,

But I think the reason people have a hard time accepting their mistakes,

Learning from them,

Owning them is because of how they feel about having made them.

I think very often when people make mistakes,

They feel like the outcome or the result of it is irreversible or they have such regret about it or shame.

In fact,

An hour before we were recording this,

I was speaking to somebody about a mistake they felt they made and it was years ago,

But they're still full of pain for hurting others in the process of making a mistake.

So mistakes are complicated or can be,

But they certainly don't have to be.

I think that that's a big point we're trying to get across and that when you make a mistake,

How is that making you feel about yourself?

Because if you think now you're bad because you made a mistake or you're not smart or you're not good enough,

Then you stay in that place.

And then what happens is if you get lost because you weren't looking at Google Maps or Waze,

You beat yourself up for having been so stupid because you already believe you're stupid.

So it's complicated in that way,

But I think we just want to break this down and that mistakes are necessary part of living life.

It's supposed to be messy and that everything that we pursue,

I mean,

There's that adage that says anything worth doing is worth doing well.

I actually would like to say anything worth doing is worth doing poorly,

Badly,

And expertly because- It's just worth doing.

Exactly.

Why?

Because even if you have an innate talent for dance or for brain surgery or whatever it may be- Two of my greatest qualities.

Exactly.

It's by actually doing and making mistakes and trying again and putting energy and effort and you will make mistakes for sure in that you will finally get to the place that you need to be ultimately.

And all of that energy that you use in the learning and the failing and the mistake making,

Energy is never wasted as the Kabbalah say and energy never dissipates.

So all of that energy that you're investing where you don't see yourself actually moving,

Growing,

You're just seeing it as a mistake and maybe I should just give up right now and try something else because obviously this isn't working.

No,

In fact that energy is there and it's going to be used for something that perhaps you cannot see yet.

Right.

So I do want to underline this concept though because I do think it is a relatively freeing and liberating concept that you can never,

Should never beat yourself up where you are because you needed to be there.

Now you might have taken this route or that route,

But the reality is that you needed for reasons you might or might not know that experience.

And as a matter of fact,

The example you just gave of this person who I know that who is speaking about,

There's no doubt in my mind and we both know that what that person was a mistake,

But that they would not be as good of a person.

They're an amazing person today.

They would not even be on the path they're on.

Probably had they not made that mistake.

That mistake was a wake up call.

And by the way,

Big idea when it comes to mistakes.

It is very often the thing that resets us to do better,

To think differently,

More creatively out of the box,

Find solutions where you didn't think you even had problems,

Right?

You thought you were fine.

And if you had continued in that vein,

Then in five years you probably wouldn't be right.

So those mistakes as we see them that are very often painful are set up to really get us to the place where we need to be or to think differently or do differently for our greatest potential.

And you used a place before,

But I think it's anywhere you find yourself in life,

Whether it's physically,

Spiritually,

Mentally,

Emotionally.

For example,

I know you've spoken about this.

A lot of people find themselves in a relationship.

Sometimes people find themselves in a marriage and they say,

Oh my God,

I made a mistake.

And by the way,

Objectively,

Logically,

If they were thinking clearly from the moment they were born until the moment of that decision,

They probably would have made a different decision.

All that being true,

Their soul needed to be in that marriage.

That process.

Whatever they need to learn.

Now,

The biggest problem would be if they missed whatever lesson they're meant to learn,

Whatever change they're meant to go through.

But I think it's so liberating.

I think it's the humility,

The removal of the ego from it.

The ego wants to say,

No,

I know always where I need to be.

No.

You don't actually,

None of us actually really knows always where we need to be.

And when a person finds themselves in a marriage that was a mistake or they find themselves in a place that was a mistake,

That doesn't mean they might have to change the situation.

It doesn't mean that divorce or whatever or finding now the way to the right city,

But accepting that they needed to be there.

So I can't beat myself up for the mistakes.

Say,

Oh my God,

How did I get myself into this place?

You needed to be in that place.

And sometimes it takes the perspective of time,

Five years later,

10 years later,

20 years later,

You realize they can say,

I'm so happy that I made all those mistakes.

I mean,

The mistake is how we view mistakes.

Because then we think,

Oh,

I never should have done that.

I shouldn't have gotten that marriage.

I wasted 10 years of my life and filled with regret.

And actually then you miss out on the entire lesson and purpose.

That's a very important part because we've seen this so often with people where the egos thought,

I made the mistake and that's why I'm here.

And that's all I think about,

What an idiot I was that I brought myself to this.

When really you're the idiot now for stepping in.

For not changing and growing and learning for what you need to from this situation that you needed to be the in,

That you needed to be in.

And it's really such a beautiful paradox.

Again,

It's sad for the person who's going through it,

But that literally the upset about the mistake,

Whether often it's in relationships,

Actually distracts and does not allow the individual to see the beauty,

The lesson,

The growth from that situation that they need to be in.

I want to address one other idea related to that.

Something you said is in the conversation you were having,

The people that they hurt.

And I think this is also really a corollary to what we said before that where you are is where you need to be.

And this,

Again,

I want to be very careful in saying this because this can be understood in the wrong way,

But anybody who is hurt actually needed to go through that hurt.

Definitely going to need to unpack that.

Yes.

You didn't need to be the cause of that,

But nobody experiences anything that they did not need to experience.

It does not mitigate your responsibility for having caused the pain,

But it does mitigate the overwhelming pain of the thought that had it not been for me,

That person would never have experienced it.

For example,

There's a famous Kabbalistic teaching about many of us know the biblical story of the Israelites in Egypt.

They were enslaved for hundreds of years by the hands of the Egyptians.

And the Kabbalists teach that that pain of enslavement,

The Israelites,

The children of Jacob needed to experience for their own spiritual development.

We can talk about that for a long time.

The Egyptians though did not need to be the ones causing that pain,

Causing that enslavement.

So you really need to always separate out the experience that I have,

That you have,

Experience that anybody has from what caused it.

Again,

So in this case,

The Israelites needed to go through that pain.

It does not absolve the Egyptians from making the decision to cause pain to these people because they didn't need to be the cause.

It could have and should have been in another way or another person.

So in that case,

The person you're talking about,

The people to whom they caused pain and they did cause pain needed to experience that pain,

Either to cleanse themselves,

To grow,

Whatever.

They're going to have their own wake up,

Right?

I mean- Absolutely.

Very often we all cruise through life with blinders on because we're pursuing X,

Right?

When we need to really look at X,

Y,

And Z and it's often to lose sight of that bigger picture.

So anything that comes at us or things we don't want,

Other people's mistakes that fall on us,

Whatever it is,

It's something if you look at it with that broader scope,

It becomes very clear that there's such a bigger thing happening here than that one specific thing.

I think that when we look at mistakes,

Instead of seeing it as a problem,

We need to see it as an opening.

And what opening is it there?

What is it creating for each one of us?

It really is exactly that.

Right.

And how,

Again,

I said,

I think I know that in my own life,

This is such a liberating.

Again,

It does not,

To be clear,

Absolve not myself,

Not anybody of learning from the mistakes,

Of doing better next time.

But when you realized where you are,

You needed to be and where anybody else who went through or in some way touched by your process needed to have that experience.

Again,

Does not absolve a responsibility,

Does not hopefully make us learn to do better next time.

But sometimes the reason we beat ourselves up is because we say,

And for the most part,

I didn't need to be here.

No,

You actually didn't need to be there.

And not only did you need to be there,

You need to be learning from why you're there.

And don't get caught up in beating yourself up for the decision that you made to get you to that place.

I think also it is the way we view life.

I think a lot of times we expect things to be a certain way.

Again,

Like having a perfect child or a completely healthy child or the perfect marriage or whatever that ideal is,

We think that our life is going to look like versus what our life is actually.

I think it challenges the way we view changes.

If somebody has a health change or a career change or a family change,

We see that as a problem.

And again,

Changes are not problems.

They're not even mistakes.

They're only mistakes in our eyes because we thought it would be a certain way.

I remember I was counseling a couple of ones and she kept saying that she's unhappy with her marriage,

She wants to leave her husband.

But then when she would talk about the marriage,

In fact,

She wasn't really unhappy with it.

They had kids,

She was fine with it.

So I kept going back and forth with her.

I finally realized and identified that she had an idea of what the marriage would be and it was very much different than that.

But she wasn't unhappy in her marriage,

But it didn't match what she thought it should be.

So it was a problem.

And part of it is just how we view what our life is meant to look like.

And I love this idea of messy.

I mean,

We talked about this a week ago and I was looking at my own life.

We went on a date night in freezing New York.

Yes,

We actually sat outside.

I was very,

Very impressed that Monica usually is colder than I am.

And we sat there for probably an hour and a half.

It was worth it.

Yes,

It was definitely worth it.

The conversation warmed me up.

But we started talking about this idea of living a messy life and what that looks like and how I think I was sharing with you that when I try to approach life in a way that is really planned and organized,

I tend to be less happy.

And it's in those times where I do something,

I'm not sure it's the right thing,

Whatever that means.

And it's kind of like all over the place and I've got my hands in too many things and it's a bit messy that I actually learned the most and I feel the most free and liberated.

Right.

And- Yes,

Sorry.

.

.

.

There's no place for mistakes and that kind of consciousness.

Right.

So it's that idea of surrender to the messiness,

Right?

There's a story,

An ancient Kabbalistic story that for me really illustrates this idea of embracing the messiness of life.

There is a day of the year on Yom Kippur when we had seen that through our prayers and meditations and connections,

We set up how the year is going to be.

And there was a great Kabbalist who was able to read people's prayers.

He was able to share with them what they prayed for and also share with them what the heavens answered the prayer.

So after the day of Yom Kippur,

He calls over one of his students,

He says,

Let me share with you both what you prayed for and what the heavens answered.

He said to him,

You're a very spiritual person.

You really want to be a spiritual person.

You want to be sharing with people all the time.

You like to pray,

You like to meditate,

You like to study.

And you live a very busy life.

He owned a little inn that was often busy,

Often late at night.

You hardly get to sleep.

So he started speaking to the creator.

He said,

You know what?

This year I want to dedicate to good things.

I want to have the time to share.

I want to have the time to pray properly,

To meditate properly,

To study properly,

To grow spiritually.

What could be better?

Then you said to the creator,

But you know how busy I am.

So my plan is,

My request,

In the beginning of the year,

I'm not asking to be a very wealthy man.

I'm saying,

Give me what I need for myself and my family to live.

And then I don't have to worry about money the rest of the year.

I can dedicate my life to only sharing with people,

To doing my own spiritual work and so on and so forth.

That was in the first prayer.

As the next prayer,

You started thinking to yourself again,

You said,

I didn't change my desire for the year,

I want this to be the most spiritual year.

I want this a year where I dedicate to other people,

Where I can meditate and pray and study and share as much as I can being free with my mind.

But I'm worried if you give me all that money upfront in the year,

That I might get busy with it,

Worried about investing it.

So give me half of the money that I need in the beginning of the year,

Half of the money that I need in the middle of the year,

And then I can not have to worry about money because I'll get it in those two chunks and I'll be able to dedicate my life as it should be.

To prayer,

To study,

To spiritual growth,

To sharing with other people.

And then in the next prayer,

You kept thinking about this.

This was a big request.

The Creator,

You said,

You know what to the Creator,

I'm still worried.

Again,

My goal for this year is still the same.

I wanted a year dedicated only to spirituality,

To sharing with other people,

To giving to others.

But I'm worried still about those two big chunks of half and half.

Do it by a quarter.

In the beginning of the year,

Give me what I need for the first quarter of the year.

In the second quarter,

Give me in the beginning of the quarter what all the money that I need to support my family.

In the third quarter,

All that I need for that quarter.

And in the fourth quarter,

As it begins,

Give me the money that I need to feed my family,

To support my family.

And then I can dedicate my life to the spiritual goals,

To sharing with other people,

To meditation,

To prayer,

To study.

And the guy was surprised.

That's exactly what I was,

That's exactly the conversation that was going on between me and the Creator.

Then his teacher said to him,

Do you want to know what the heavens answered?

He says,

Yes,

Of course.

He says,

The heavens said,

You are not in this world to have an unmessy life.

And when everything is going as you want it to go,

To help other people,

Then to share with other people to be spiritual.

The purpose of life is to live in the mud,

To be behind the counter at the inn at 2 a.

M.

With the guy drunk and yelling at you and still finding a way to be kind,

And still finding the five minutes to pray and the three minutes to study and so on and so forth.

And he said this,

And this is a very famous quote,

The Creator does not need angels.

There are enough angels in the heavens.

We did not come into this world to be perfect and do all right all the time as the angels.

We came into this world to live in the mud or the messiness,

As you're referring to it,

Of this world and from that mess do some meditation,

Prayer,

Study,

Assistance to other people.

That's why we're in this world.

And I think that's probably one of the most powerful ways to view our lives.

We're meant to make mistakes,

We're meant to fail,

We're meant to live in the mud of this world,

However that becomes manifest in our lives,

And yet from there bring some light.

And yet from there help other people.

Well,

Because that will be greater light.

That will help more people than if you have it all structured and organized in this,

Again,

Perfect little box.

I want this amount of money so I have to work this amount of hours.

I mean,

I know people who live like that.

From this time to that time they do acts.

Their week is so structured like that it leaves very little room,

In fact no room for error,

For mistakes,

For curiosity.

For the light of the Creator.

Exactly.

Especially,

Mostly,

Right?

Exactly.

And that's the part of it.

To me it all goes back to that living with the humility.

I have no idea what tomorrow is supposed to be like for me.

Again,

I will do my best.

I will wake up in the morning and I will try to make my spiritual connections and I will try to be kind and so on and so forth.

But I have enough humility to know that I don't know what tomorrow is supposed to be like.

I will endeavor to do my best but be open to whatever mess comes into it and from that mess hopefully be able to extract some light,

Some sparks.

But by the way,

When you live like that in the mess you actually are able to find these gems that your day is better than you had anticipated it to be.

You are able to share it in far greater ways because it's not according to your plan and your plan alone.

It's not exactly how you know it should be and how it should roll out.

Instead it's imperfect and therefore you're able to see the crack in the wall and through the crack in the wall you're seeing the light behind it that's coming through.

You're like,

Oh,

Well,

What is that?

Now you're in a whole different space than you had intended.

And I think the other way of living in that neat orderly way,

Afraid to make a mistake,

It leaves our soul starving for purpose and for what we're really searching for.

You're stuck in the upset of the mistake.

Well,

Yeah.

There's something I read actually.

I can't quote who wrote it.

I'm so sorry but it wasn't me.

One of our listeners will.

No,

It's not.

It's somebody who wrote it on their blog but she said,

My home is messy not because I enjoy chaos because I value many things more than I do tidy.

I just like this because it puts it very much in perspective what we're talking about.

She said my garden- You do enjoy tidy though.

I do enjoy- There's nothing wrong with that.

Yes,

However,

Not more than.

That's the point.

Yeah.

I mean,

I cleaned the house over the break for two weeks.

It brought you great pleasure.

I've never met anybody who enjoys cleaning clutter more than you do.

I can tell you why though.

There's a formula here.

I was feeling very stuck in my thoughts.

When I would sit down to write or work on an idea or my next book,

I would sit at my desk and I could just see papers and old projects and past things.

It felt heavy to me.

I didn't start there because that was just way too daunting.

I cleaned out every one of our kids' rooms,

Every closet,

Drawer,

Pantry.

So much stuff left the house and I know where everything is and every- I have no idea where anything is at this point.

Yes,

I know,

But you always say,

Monica,

Where is- But that process actually made me clear my mess in my head and then I can live messily.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

Okay.

So she said,

My garden is messy not because I'm a bad gardener,

But because this is not the season for growing food.

This is our season for growing businesses,

Daughters,

And local community.

She said,

My children are messy not because I'm failing as a parent,

But because we encourage them to practice being human without shame or the need for perfection.

And practicing for humanhood is messy work.

My marriage is messy not because we're doing something wrong,

But because we're still married.

I do like order and maintain it best I can within reason.

But the longer I live,

The more clear it becomes that tidy is simply not a worthy goal.

I'd rather shoot for a mess I feel proud of.

So that really resonates with my life,

Yes.

It seems to me,

When we spoke last week,

When we went on our date,

Is that often the most interesting people are the messy people.

Again,

Right?

Like the most interesting characters in shows,

Right?

Who was right?

David Sedaris was writing in his book,

Right?

That he was talking about his father,

Right?

What was it?

He was talking about his father.

My father,

Again,

In his book,

But he was a good character.

Right.

Because he was interesting and full of error and mistakes.

Right.

And obviously,

We're not saying people should be good people.

But it is the people who are messy.

And I think maybe the thing that we're very much adding in this is that is to embrace the messiness.

Right?

I think that people can be messy.

Don't be afraid of it.

Right.

I think fear plays a big factor.

Like if I make a mistake now,

Then I'm going to amount to nothing or I won't succeed.

I think people are very.

.

.

They identify with success,

Right?

That is the end all be all goal.

And so success seems to be the opposite of mistakes,

Which we know,

In fact,

That's not true,

But that's the rap it has.

So I'd like to share something Monica and I both enjoy reading,

Malcolm Gladwell.

And there's a section in one of his books,

David and Goliath,

Which I think really speaks to this point that I think there's this.

.

.

Often when I read something or teach something,

It's always there's a phrase that sticks out for me that I go with.

So there's only one thing that any one of our listeners takes from what I'm going to share now is the concept of desirable difficulties.

Desirable difficulties.

So I'll read a little bit and then share some of it.

Conventional wisdom holds that a disadvantage is something that ought to be avoided.

Right?

And you could say disadvantage,

You could say mistake.

I really think they're interchangeable.

That it is a setback or a difficulty that leaves you worse off than you would be otherwise.

But that is not always the case.

So he quotes Robert Bjork and Elizabeth Bjork or psychologists at UCLA.

They developed and conceived of the concept of desirable difficulties.

What are the things.

.

.

And I think for our listeners,

What I hope they leave listening from this podcast is that desirable mistakes.

Once you've made the mistake,

Now learn from it.

Now be happy where you are.

Desirable mistakes or desirable difficulties.

So one of the ways that they came to this understanding is there's a test called the CRT,

The cognitive reflection test.

It's three questions.

And a Yale professor,

Shane Frederick developed it and he believes and he proved that it actually is as good in assessing people's intelligence as those hour long intelligence tests.

Tell us three questions.

Well,

I won't go through that.

It's too long.

I'll just do that though.

You want to do that?

Not on air.

Yes.

All fair.

Yes.

Yes.

But I do recommend,

Again,

Any of our listeners to really read this chapter and David and Goliath.

It's really interesting and I think really helps to support this idea that we're sharing that all of our mistakes are desirable.

All of our difficulties are desirable.

So they took this test,

These three questions,

And they gave it to students at MIT,

At Harvard,

At Yale.

And they found out that this was true,

That the scores on the CRT,

These three questions were as good of an assessment of a person's intelligence as longer intelligence assessments.

Two psychologists,

Adam Alter and Daniel Oppenheimer,

Took this test and they gave it to a group of students and the scores were relatively low.

And they tried to think,

What can we do to make these same students or the same cohort of students do better on this test?

So the question,

How do you make somebody do something better?

So one obvious answer would be,

Well,

Make it easier.

If you make it easier,

You would assume people will do better.

But the opposite is true.

So these two psychologists took the same three questions,

Gave it to the same parallel group of students,

But they made it harder to read.

They made it a little bit more gray.

They made the font smaller so that it was really difficult to read.

And what they found is that because they made the questions more difficult to read,

And this has proven the students did better answering the questions.

Because when things are challenging,

When there's a challenge or you're in a place that is uncomfortable,

You try harder,

You think differently.

And so this idea,

Desirable difficulties.

And again,

I strongly recommend this.

So interesting.

So then the question that Malcolm Gladwell posits is,

Would you wish dyslexia on your children?

That's the question.

Now,

Of course,

Most of us would say no.

He goes into the studies that find that one third of all successful people in the world are dyslexic.

Interesting.

He does a whole list of people,

Charles Schwab,

Craig McGaugh,

David Neillman,

Many,

Many,

Successful people.

So the percentage of successful people who have dyslexia are much greater than their percentage in the population.

Why is that?

So he says,

And I'll just read this last phrase.

The more intriguing possibility is that they succeeded in part because of their disorder,

That they learned something in their struggle that proved to be of enormous advantage.

Would you wish dyslexia on your child?

If this is true,

You just might.

And of course,

We don't get to choose what our children have or don't have,

But I think the lesson is profound.

That it is not only,

I think up until now we're talking about the importance of embracing with humility the mistakes that we made,

We refined ourselves.

But what if,

And this I believe to be completely true,

That our mistakes make us better,

That the challenge is no matter.

.

.

Again,

It doesn't mean that- They make us stronger,

They make us try harder.

If we learn something- They make us learn new ways of thinking,

Of doing,

Especially if you're feeling like you're at a disadvantage.

And when you come from the perspective that any place that I find myself and therefore any effect of a mistake that I made is actually meant to make me a better person and you take the time to learn and you delve into,

Okay,

How do I change from here?

You become the better person from the mistakes.

So not only are we talking about embracing messiness,

Embracing our mistakes,

But actually on a certain level,

And I had this conversation last night with one of our students that some of the times that I'm most excited and really saying to our listeners,

The times that you should be most excited is right after you've made a mistake because wow,

Can you become an amazing person from this,

A person that you would not have been had you not made that mistake.

Well,

Think about it.

I know if,

For instance,

I remember once I gave a talk I didn't feel great about and I felt this sting,

This burn of embarrassment.

I'm sure it wasn't even something anybody knows,

But for me,

I felt that I could have done better.

And so that motivated me to try harder next time and to do more and prepare.

I just used it as a motivator for change.

And even if you think about,

For instance,

If somebody is on a sugar-free diet and it's working really well for them and then all of a sudden they go to the sugar factory and they eat a ton of sugar and then they feel horrible the next day because their body's been clean,

Then that could be a motivator for change,

Right?

Because they're feeling the effects of the mistake they made.

So we want to feel the effects.

We don't want to walk around with shame and as a burden and that we've made this irreversible damaging thing that we can't go back and fix,

But instead use it to propel you to become the best version of you,

To do more,

To be more,

To think differently,

To not fear.

I mean,

If you understand that mistake is so necessary,

Then you stop being afraid of things and you try them.

And then in fact,

What happens is you become fearless.

So it's just a win-win any way you look at it.

Right.

I think that's a beautiful phrase you said,

And hopefully our listeners will take it from this podcast that you need to really be happy about your mistakes.

Not why you made them,

That you might want to change,

But once you've made them,

Be happy.

Be all in.

Absolutely.

Well,

Let me ask you then,

If you look back at your life,

I've never asked you this question actually,

What was a mistake that really stands out for you?

A big one?

It has to be a big one.

Well,

I mean,

It has to be something that you would remember,

Right?

And that really caused you to rethink something or do something differently or a change came from it.

It's funny.

There's one thought that came to mind and it's funny how I have this memory.

So maybe this isn't really answering your question,

But I think it's an interesting story.

It's a big story.

I remember it was 1984.

I'm trying to remember the exact details,

But I remember something.

I had an argument with my father and I remember that.

So obviously,

I'm an 11 year old kid,

I'm not going to beat myself up,

But obviously I did something that I shouldn't have done.

Do you remember what it was?

I'm not going to ask you to share.

No,

No.

Was it significant?

I don't think that was significant.

What's significant is the way the conversation went when my father confronted me with it.

So this is often the truth.

Whatever was done is insignificant.

But even with couples,

Right?

It's like they're fighting about the remote control and then it blows up into what was said afterwards.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I remember it was nighttime.

So we ended the argument,

Whatever you want to call it,

Badly.

I remember I slammed the door and then I felt so bad,

So bad.

And then I went,

We were living in Israel at the time,

And I went into my parents' room like an hour later or so and my father was already sleeping.

So I didn't have the opportunity to like to correct it that night.

The next day we spoke about it.

But for me,

I remember feeling so much pain.

Because you hurt him?

Because I hurt him and I wasn't able.

For me,

And I really strongly believe in this idea of we all make mistakes,

We're all going to hurt especially people we love,

But correct it as quickly as possible.

For me,

Not to be able to correct it that night having to wait the next day and not even the next day because in the morning I gave a class,

I went to school,

I had to be that next evening.

And obviously this 36 years later,

It still has left an indelible mark on me both in that trying not to hurt the people we love and most importantly,

If you do and we all will,

Fix it as quickly as possible.

Yes,

You never told me that story before because I never asked you this question.

That's funny.

Well,

I was going to ask you a question,

The same similar question is what is a relatively recent mistake that you made that you've learned from or that you embraced?

I mean,

Correct me if I'm wrong,

But I feel like I'm always telling you like,

I made a mistake or I could have done that differently because I'm always checking with myself.

Like I always think I could have done it better.

I said a work in progress in terms of,

I hate that word,

But perfectionism.

I think I do it a lot with our kids so you can pick any which one of them.

I think that I carried that from my childhood,

Like that I was left with a lot of feelings a lot of the time that I wasn't able to talk through.

So I always think my kids were feeling things and perhaps maybe they're not even and that I could have give a longer hug,

Especially one of our kids loves hugs.

And I'm often like buzzing around or another one of our kids,

He's just the kindest.

And so I don't often tell him how kind he is because he's just so full of,

He just.

.

.

So I think I go back to those at the end of the day and I look back at the day.

I do this actually every day.

I don't think I've ever told you that and I think how could I have interacted with our kids differently?

Not that it was even bad,

But what could I have done better?

And it has a positive effect?

I mean,

You're not beating yourself up.

I'm not beating myself up because.

.

.

Sometimes you do actually,

Right?

Yeah.

Well,

I don't want to look back when they're out of the house and then I can't.

.

.

Then I was like,

Oh,

No one's asking for that hug today.

So I think in that sense,

I'm not beating myself up about what I did.

Let's just wake up quickly so you don't have regret later.

I think we could do a whole podcast and regret because we were talking about that recently too.

But I think it's really that.

So what is a mistake?

A mistake to me is looking back at exchanges and interactions in a day and asking myself,

Could I have done that a little bit better or differently?

So I do that every day and I don't beat myself up about it,

But I do take that question very seriously because I think that's how you're accountable to yourself for the life you're living.

And that for me ensures that I'm going to live the life that I've intended to live.

Right.

And so what you were saying and what I heard was,

Life is making mistakes,

But the choice is to grow and change from them.

Right.

So I'm not even asking myself every day to make a mistake.

I'm saying,

Okay,

We made many today.

Now how do I do better tomorrow?

What do I want tomorrow to look like?

Exactly.

And I think that that's the point of the exercise for me is that it's not so much about what I did in this day.

It's what do I want tomorrow to be.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Anything else you wanted to share?

I mean,

I think if I opened another thing,

It would be a whole another can of worms.

I don't know how long.

You're usually the timekeeper.

Yes.

Yes.

We're out of time.

So I do want to.

.

.

This is our first podcast of 2021,

Right?

No,

It's the second one.

Second one.

It's the first one.

Well,

I hope I'm not telling too many secrets here.

The first one we recorded in 2021.

And that's what we thought was really important to talk about mistakes because I think people like to make this year perfect.

Hopefully all of our listeners now don't want to make this year perfect.

We want to make it filled with mistakes from which we learn and filled with messiness with which we live and the humility that allows us to embrace all of that.

So I just want to add to that.

I think a lot of people were so excited to be rid of 2020.

We've heard that nonstop.

I mean,

There are t-shirts and hats I saw being sold in stores.

And I think that it's important to look back at this past year.

And yes,

I don't think that most of us have ever lived through a pandemic before.

And the things that we're seeing in politics,

On TV,

It's just like it's unbelievable.

But I think that even if we look back at all the things that we saw that we thought were mistakes in the past year shouldn't have happened or we wished hadn't happened,

I think it's important to look back and say,

Okay,

What are the things that I did learn?

What friendships,

New friendships did I cultivate?

What new understandings about myself did I learn?

Strengths,

Even weaknesses.

What new perspective did I gain?

There's always something I think that it's really important to,

Even in looking at things that we want to change or mistakes or to look and say,

Okay,

Well,

What are the beautiful things that came out of all of that?

Because if you put everything in that kind of scope,

Again,

That's where your next day is going to be different than anything else.

So we want this new year to be looked at in that way.

You will make mistakes.

It will not be perfect.

It will be very messy,

But it will be profoundly worthwhile and that this is your process.

We go back to the word perfect.

We are not complete.

We are not finished.

We are very much in the middle of a process.

It's interesting because as you mentioned this past year,

I was thinking about different relationships and it's often that concept of being stronger in the broken places.

That's really what life is about.

It's a song,

Right?

I think it's a concept.

I know I've read about it.

I don't know if it's a song.

Could be.

Who is.

.

.

It's not the name of his book that he has dementia or.

.

.

I think you're right.

Yeah.

Is that the name?

I can't remember right now.

I'm sure we'll have to answer that in our letters.

That as we look back and as we look forward to know that the greatest relationships and the greatest growth.

.

.

I'm sorry.

Did he sing I Hurt Myself?

Is that the song?

No,

That's Johnny Cash.

Johnny Cash.

Okay.

Go ahead.

The broken places.

Right.

That as we look back and as we look forward,

I think we will find that the relationships are the most powerful and the places that will be the greatest sources of our blessings are the places that we broke a little bit and then we fixed.

So very excited to start off this year with all of our listeners embracing the messiness of life.

And please feel free to send your stories,

Questions,

Ideas,

Suggestions,

Answers to some of the things we raised and we didn't know the answer to on the podcast to monicaandmichaelatkabala.

Com.

Again we will try to get as many stories.

By the way,

Even though we don't get to share all the stories,

The stories that you share with us are very,

Very inspiring to us and I know that they're inspiring when we get to share them with the rest of our listeners.

So please make sure to send in questions,

Comments,

Stories to monicaandmichaelatkabala.

Com.

Please make sure to keep going to Apple Podcasts and writing reviews and five-star reviews and sharing this with your friends and family.

We are overwhelmed by the amount of people that are listening to this podcast and drawing inspiration from it.

That's why we do this and it keeps us going.

But we want to hear from you and we want your friends to hear from you about this podcast.

Do everything you can to share this.

Do everything you can,

As I said,

To review Apple Podcasts and so on and so forth.

And we hope that you enjoyed this podcast as much as we enjoyed recording it.

Thank you guys so much for having us.

Reviews

Insightful and beautiful perspective...to consider and accept we are meant to make the mistakes we do. Thank you for this. Namaste 🙏

Excellent discussion on the illusion of perfection and the fears associated with making mistakes. There is powerful value in accepting mistakes and learning the lessons. Thank you for an important topic offered with compassion.

What a great way to start 2021 ... excellent message! Thank you!!

Thanks so much guys this is really inspiring. It’s the first time I’ve ever listen to you and I’m excited to see what other topics you embrace.💖💝