534: What Astrology Reveals About Your Purpose And Patterns

Have you ever wondered why you keep repeating certain patterns, why some relationships feel easier than others, or what you are really here to do? In this episode, I’m joined by psychotherapist and astrologer Debra Silverman for a fascinating conversation about astrology, psychology, and self-discovery. Debra explains how your birth chart can offer insight into your personality, emotional patterns, relationships, and life lessons. And as she reminds us, we are so much more than our sun signs!

Transcript

Hello everyone and welcome to the adult chair podcast. I am Michelle Shelford here with you again today. So excited about our guest today. Let me tell you, Let me ask you, Not tell you, Let me ask you this question. Have you ever felt like you've gone to therapy, You've done the coaching, And you're like, Why? I just wish I could get to the root issue really, Really quickly. That's what today's show is all about, Okay? I gotta tell you, I love our guest. Her name is Deborah Silverman. You have probably heard of her. She is all over the world, All over social, All over all the podcasts. She's amazing. She is a psychotherapist and world-renowned astrologer. She breaks it down. She talks about, Oh my gosh, How do you get to your root cause? What's your mission? All sitting right in your astrology chart. It is not woo-woo. This is science-based. We got into it deep. We got into astrology. Of course, You know. She had my information, So she has my chart. So she's weaving things in and out as we went through the whole show, But I gotta tell you what, She is someone, I followed her for years. She's amazing. She is grounded. This is not woo-woo at all. Did you know, By the way, She even shared this, That Carl Jung, Carl Jung. Used astrology in his sessions. Hello. This is something we need to learn more about. You are so much more than your sun sign. So your sun sign is what you think, What you are like. I'm a Scorpio. Yay. That doesn't mean very much. It means a very, Very, Very little teeny tiny piece about my personality. She's going to explain more today. So. Here we go with the one and only Deborah Silverman. So welcome to the adult share podcast, Deborah Silverman. Thank you so much. It is just, I am so excited to have you here. I love that you blend. Psychotherapy with astrology. I love what you do. I've been following you for years. So it's an absolute, It's an honor, Honestly, To have you on the show today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Why don't we start with Tell us a little bit about, I'd like to hear just a little bit about your background. How are you blending astrology with psychotherapy, Or with psychology? How does it blend? I think it's very similar to you, Where I can't explain the actual entrance of this. It was a brought inside skill that came through my spiritual inheritance of other lifetimes. I really believe, It sounds weird, I think I've never said this before, But I really believe I was in the 30s around Freud and Jung. I have such a strong memory And when I learned it in school, It was like. . . I mean, School was a joke. I went to graduate school for clinical psychology, And I was like, Can everyone just be quiet and let me work? Like, All that stuff was bugging me. That sounds very arrogant, And it's a symptom of an indigo child or someone who knew I learned astrology without having to study. So I recapitulated. I remembered psychology and astrology, And I was like, Duh. And then I found out that Carl Jung was an astrologer, And that all of his sessions, He had a chart in front of him, Didn't tell anyone because of the stigma. So his quote was, Psychology will be a dinosaur science until it includes astrology. So I understood, I'd already figured that out because I was fascinated by my completely screwed up family and studied their charts. I was like, Something's wrong with these people. And then I found that everybody had a screwed up family and everybody had something wrong with them. And why was I surprised? And that lent itself to me becoming a therapist. But I never, Ever didn't do the charts because it started very, Very young in high school. So I was every single person to this minute, Like when I'm watching a movie or I'm watching the news or I'm seeing an autobiography, I'm looking at my phone. It's terrible looking at the charts. So I'm obsessed. That's the short answer. Because he's right. It's a dinosaur science trying to move the furniture around. And your work is very similar to my work. I also have four elements and there are four characters that I work with and yours are the adult child. Yeah, Child, Adolescent, Adult. Yeah, Three. And I work with water, Air, Earth, And fire. Psychological model of the four parts of us, Similar to your work in that I've identified the four different voices and then all of my life's work is based on those distinctions. And if you have four wheels in a car and one wheel is down, The whole thing's off. So I'm always talking about balance and grounding people. And it started, Honestly, To answer your question, The marriage of astrology and psychology to me was like peanut butter and jelly. I don't know how to do it without. I didn't. It was very confusing that in graduate school, And I went to tell the supervisor that I wanted to do a research project on astrology, And my client says, And she was like, That's not okay. This was 1980. She was like, That is not okay. I was like, Well, I'm doing it. So, You know, It was, I was in my early twenties and I refused to listen to her and it never left. So I can't answer the question of how did I, To me it was, They're so best friends. Yeah, I completely get that. I really do. I want to ask you how, What can our birth chart tell us about ourselves that we might've been able to, Or that we're trying to figure out, Let's say in therapy, What does, Can our birth chart help us to understand? Have heard from people for years, Including myself, And I remember. I remember in the seventies, I couldn't wait till our daily newspaper came and I would open it up for my Scorpio. What's happening with Scorpio today? Like that was back in the seventies and then going to therapy all the years. And when I learned about astrology and the chart, So much more that we, I think I want to write a book, Not that I ever will, But we are so much more than our sun sign. I wrote the book. The book is because it's such a prevalent question. What is it besides the sun that you're sensing? I can't answer it superficially. The book would give you more. I'm simply going to say there are, Just like your three characters, There's different characters on a council inside your head and they talk shit about you. They're not friendly. They don't like you. They undermine you. They don't give you a spiritual angle. They really are ruled by your ego. And when you start to identify which part of your chart gets on an ego topic, Or which part of your chart is your life lesson that keeps repeating itself? It's sad in return when you turn 28 to 30, Or at 58 to 60. What are those recurring themes? They'll inform you about how to look at the chart. So we really intersect the life story of somebody with the chart. So you can go abstract, And there's these astrologers talking all the time about it, And it kind of annoys me to tell you the truth. I'm glad they're talking, But my real dream in this life is to apply it. My school is called applied astrology. Don't talk about, Yes, The question is, Tell me about the sun, Moon, And rising. Yes, They are the three pillars. The sun is your ego, The moon is your emotional body, And the rising sign's your soul. That's why it's called the ascendant. And you're meant to aim, And you are a double Aquarius. You have your soul and your emotional body are so far apart from what your personality is. Your soul wants to talk all the time and think all the time. Community and the other party wants everybody to shut up and leave you alone. And that conflict that lives inside your, And with two seconds, I can look at a chart at a psychological level and say, This is what your ego keeps on repeating. And then once your observer comes on, This is the funnest part of my life's work, In both books, I teach people how to like come on up. Get out of the storyline, Stop the bus, Turn on your observer, Become part of your higher self, And then look at your silly story. I call them stupid stories. Everyone has a stupid story. Welcome to Planet Earth. You can't come here without a drama. So my job as a therapist is to ask them your question, How do you psychologically look at a chart? I use you. I use your story. And I find out what's currently going on in your world. And then I back into the chart. So I'm not the predictor of the chart. I do love doing children's charts. It's like one of my favorite things in life. And facilitating the mother's acceptance of the child as it is. And the actual display, How they're going to demonstrate that part of their character is going to be, It's like when there's twins. One displays it in one way, One does another. They're similar in essence. But as an astrologer, I can't make generalizations like that and say, Let me tell you the general rule of how you're going to look at your chart, And this is a cycle of, Yes, Do I spend chapters on Saturn, Your Saturns and Aries, The most important indicator of what you promised this life? Does everyone come to see me and ask, What am I doing here? What's my purpose? And then that's a big conversation. And then your work is, Scorpio, Getting into the unconscious and finding out what the blocks are that have been put in place by your karma, Better known as your family, And how to unleash that and free it back into the happy version of you. Your work is doing, And that is very, Very similar to what I do. I mean, We have a school, And it's just six weeks long. It starts in January, And you study your chart like a fourth grader. Like, It's so simple, Because it's so abstract, This conversation, When you start talking about Mercury and Venus and conjunct of Venus and trining Saturn from the second house to the Yeah. Yeah. It is confusing. But when you start understanding, I'm just learning about the transits. And I realize like, Whoa, The transits, When the planets are moving and the moon, Everything is moving and it hits different parts in our chart, What happens to us? So that alone, Again, I feel like I'm- Well, You're nailing it, Because right now in this moment, You're in Saturn Return. So people think of it as, It's a very specific date and it comes with degrees. And Saturn Return, You should all know, And this is in my book, The Missing Element, Or the, I Don't Believe in Astrology, There's a whole, If I had to get simple, I would say your life lesson, In your case it's Aries, Is the, And we can talk more about that offline so that everyone doesn't have to hear your life lesson. But also- You can tell anyone my life stuff. I'm an open book. I don't care. And then the next part is the Saturn return to your point, Transit. So when they occur, 58 to 60, 28 to 30, Major apocalypse, Catalystic, Radical change, You can't prepare for it. It's coming to get you and you felt it and you're feeling it. What you can do is have faith that you're right on schedule. Now, If you don't believe you're right on schedule, That's when you go and you work with Michelle, Or that's when you come and you study Australia. Like, What's wrong with me? And then we say nothing, But you've got this ego that's twisted enough. I'm sorry. Let me untwist it. And give you back to, Oh, That's right, You were doing it anyway your whole life lesson, But you just didn't know you were doing it because you have internal dialogue that's mean. Very mean. So many people do not know what the Saturn return is. Would you define it as? And I understand from an astrological perspective, You know, Your chart is coming back to where you were the day you were born. Yes. But isn't it something. . . Not your chart, Just one planet, Saturn. Oh, I thought it was all planets. Okay. Oh, That's why they call it the Saturn Return. So Saturn is coming back to where it was the day you were born, The minute you were born. I've read something about, You know, You came here to do something, You came here to experience various things, So your soul is wanting to accomplish these things. And if you haven't done it, It's like you get a kick in the ass during Saturn Return. How do you explain a Saturn Return? It goes both ways. You also get a blessing. It's not always a kick in the ass. It can be a real, Like you're feeling it. It can be a fulfillment of a dream you've been holding for a long time. I started my school at my second Saturn Return. I didn't see it coming, To your point. I felt something, I intuited something. I had a phone call from a woman called Destiny, I swear. And Destiny said to me, Because Saturn rules Destiny, And she said to me, Would you start an online school? And I'm in my 70s. It's like I'm older than I look. So what happened at that point, At 58, I was like, I never knew what an online school was. So I said, What are you talking about? And she goes, You can create a curriculum online and teach astrology. And I was like, Oh, Come on. And now we've had 10, 000 students go through our school. But it happened at the moment of my Saturn return. Wow. And I didn't know it was just like you. I was like, I had no idea it was coming. I have said to people for about six to eight months now, Which is fascinating. There's a pivot coming. There's something coming. There's something I keep telling my team. I tell people around me, They're like, Well, What is it? I'm like, I don't know. I can feel a pivot coming. So how do we know when exactly, Is there a specific, And yes, There's a month, You said, When the Saturn returns, But it's a period of two years where all of this is happening? There's no month, It's not like that. You're in it, The exact degree amplifies it right now where you're at, It really, But it's gonna last all the way through 26 and 27. So it's not like a moment in time where the doorbell rings and they call the phone, Like it's not, On Tuesday at 3. 30 in the morning, It's gonna be crazy. No, No, It's not like that. That. It's an influence. The stars, Even Mercury retrograde or when there's a full moon or when there's an eclipse, It's like a shadow. It lasts. It impacts us. And sometimes it takes a whole year to actually manifest. So you're feeling it. Anyone that's 28 to 30, 50, You're like, I feel like something's changing now. It can be the end of a job. That can be an illness. It could be a divorce. It can be changing cities. There's a million versions starting a school. There's a million versions. And You can't, You, When I work with someone and I don't do readings anymore, But I have a 22 certified astrologers that I've really rigorously put into the program and I match make. So you would send me your chart, Your Scorpio double queries. I would fix you up with the chart of an astrologer who matches your conversation. So they, They work with you and they, They give you your purpose, Why you're here, What the timing is, And then they leave you off to go do it. And by the way, You're doing much better than you think. Like if you don't know what you're doing and how people, It's always funny, They always say to me. I don't know why I'm here. I have three kids, I've been married for 20 years, And I really never got my purpose. I'm like, Excuse me? Did you not get that you were a mom and that you were a wife and that that was your job description? Did they not tell you that? Because sometimes the most understated, Most unobvious thing, It could be taking care of your mom. It could be, You know, Designing the cure to cancer. People come in with different destiny lines. And my job as an astrologer is to reduce the pressure that everybody carries. Like, Am I doing it? Am I doing it? You live with this. You're Saturn's and Aries. So you're always under the pressure. Lesson is slow it down, Which you can't do. Yeah. How do we know what our destiny line is? What is that? That's Saturn. Oh, That's the Saturn line. Interesting. But you're asking me questions without studying. And there's a lot of flirtation with astrology that is superficial. So it's just like your work is so deep. You couldn't have a client come in and go, You're like, Let me have you. And then you do the drill down. And then you drill down to the other. I do that. So you're asking me questions that are at the surface level. I give you enough information to at least answer simple questions like, What is my life lesson? Because people all the time, They're studying astrology and they don't know what they're talking about. But I'm so happy they're talking about it. I mean, At least the conversations come into the public. It used to be a secret. The witches never came out of the covens. And now we're on social media on Zoom talking about woo-woo. Exactly. So when we look at a chart, Are we able to actually see, Like a baby's chart, Can we see the childhood wounding that's going to happen and all the things in the chart? This is why I'm saying I would like to see, When we're born, Someone hand the mother and the father their astrology chart with an explanation. I did that for years. I worked in Vancouver, Canada for a magazine, And I wrote an article called Thank Heaven for Little Stars. And everyone that came to see me, I worked on their children. And we have someone on my team, One of the certified astrologers, Who just works with children. Wow. It is true. You nailed it, Aquarius. This is so brilliant. The wisdom of knowing the children's nature here. Rather than imposing yours on them, Or society's, Is the most, It's the gift to the child, It's the gift to the mother. And it's not, When you go work with that person, She's got a great Instagram called Luminary Parenting. She specifically works with the parents, The mother's moon, The daughter's moon, The son's moon, Like what personalities, What is the wounds to your point? This is why Carl Jung said, Psychology's a dinosaur science. Why not get the spiritual imprint? For sure. For sure. So can astrology help us even understand what our triggers are? Or is that something that we create with an ego, With the ego as we grow up? That's what I just said. Psychology will be, All of this, All of the psychology is revealed. I can look at anyone's chart and tell you exactly what their emotional patterns are. Oh, I love it. And then also how to resolve. Well, That's a mystery. And that's the wisdom of the seeker. And that's your job. And I can give you clues. But that's why we're alive. We come down here to be totally confused. And to have the wounding of your childhood. And then if you're lucky, You meet Michelle. If you're lucky, You meet me. And then my certified. And you're like, What? And then the lights start to come on. And then all of a sudden you're like, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. So I have free will on my childhood wounding. I can get this thing off me. Yes, But that's a job, And it's not a session. It's a prayer. I would encourage everyone listening to this, And that's why they're listening to you, Because you're so determined, Scorpio. I would do a prayer every day. I did a prayer every day. Help me to be the highest version of myself. Let me be of service here. Show me what I came to do. Give me the gift of service. And they were like, Ooh, We got a hot one there. So I have a company with 50 women, And we all work on giving people back to themselves. Word is free will come into all of this. I hate to say it, There's not much. Really? I want to hear more. Tell me more. Well, Your chart is glued to you. It's tattooed on your soul's heart. You can't see it, But I can see your chart, So I know what your soul's contract was. And then you're going to meet that husband, Or you're not going to meet the husband, Or you're going to have the kids. All this is written. You're not going to have the kids. You're going to get cancer. You're not going to get cancer. All this is written. Now, The free will button is what you do with it. Mmm. Am I going to go to therapy and do the work to clear up this wound? Am I going to go get the alternate healing and start eating raw and natural and take myself onto a diet? Am I going to start exercising? Am I just going to sit home and think about it? That's so good. Oh, That's so good. You mentioned health, So you can see health issues in a chart. I love that you're eye-rolling me. Well, Every single question you're asking is a yes. I love it. I did not know this. I did not know this with health. I know. It's such a crazy thing. And this is why we have so many therapists that work with us, Because when you compliment your therapy session, Knowing very quickly what their life lesson is, What their emotional trigger is and what their fantasies were based on their unfulfilled fantasy of childhood and turned into this horrible, When you know the storyline based on the chart, How fast, That's why he said it, Then all of a sudden therapy is so fast because you're not telling them your version of them. You're letting their They're a version, Like you are a very unique personality type. You're double queers. You couldn't follow if your whole life depended on it. So I can say that to you. If I did your chart when you were a kid and I said to your mom, This little girl is a rebel. She's going to say everything you tell her and don't make her wrong for that. That's her superpower. But a mom's going, Ew, She doesn't listen to anything I say. You know, It's annoying. So true. You can't put me in a box. Any guy ever dated, If they would start getting too controlling, I'm like, Get away. Nope, I'm breaking up with you. You're double air. You can't put anything in. Air sneaks out of everywhere. No, I don't like that. I have to be free and I feel like I have to breathe. I need big spaces. You're a double air sign. Open the windows and give me freedom and let me think what I want to think and don't tell me what to do. Okay, So would it make sense then that I don't like to live in a house with low ceilings? Of course. As crazy as that sounds? Of course, It's double error. I'm on a bike every single day because of this. I cannot live without fresh air, Without high ceilings, Without freedom. It makes me feel like I'm shrinking. You know, Everyone has. . . Some people love small spaces and they love being all snuggled up and they want to be in the dark. And that is their nature. They turn off. . . I find it amazing. They turn off the lights and they want to be dark. Now, That's a personality type. Don't bug me, Don't talk to me, Leave me alone. I like being alone. Then the devil clears. Are you kidding? Open the windows, Give me high ceilings and let's go have fun. You know what, You're giving me more permission because what I found with learning my astrology chart was that I was able to give myself permission to be me. Like, This is just how I'm wired. Right. This is how I was born. I remember I lived in Nashville for 13 years and we lived in Nashville and we had moved into a house that we thought was going to be temporary. And it was a smaller home. We said, We'll just fix it up. And then we're going to move. We ended up being there for several years and it had very low ceilings, Like nine foot ceilings. And it was a nice house, But it was smaller out. The rooms were smaller. And I used to say, I got to get out of this house. I can't take it. Then we moved into this much bigger. We went from like 3000 square feet to 5, 600 square feet, Soaring ceilings, Basement put was this massive Deborah. I kid you not. I move into this house the first day. I move in, The water in the refrigerator starts leaking. The next day, The dishwasher starts leaking. The next day, The pool starts leaking. Then the water in the AC unit starts. It was like everything having to do with water. And I was working with someone who's very intuitive. She goes, It's like your energy got in there and went push and like exploded out. And everything in the house started to go relating to water. It was wild. And I said, I feel like I can just breathe in this house. It feels so good. Now I'm back in a house with nine foot ceilings. Now I live on a lake in nature, But I keep telling my husband, I'm like, I can't stay here. I love this house, But it's, It's, I feel like I'm in a cubbyhole. So you see, It gives me permission. Yes, And you are a double air sign. So air has to have free space, Free air, And they can't live in confinement. Whereas Earth people love structures small and containment. So it's personality types, But isn't it wonderful when you feel liberated to say, This is what I need? Yes, And it's interesting, Because Graham, My husband, Will say, Well, You just have to get used to this space. Like, What's wrong with you? Who cares? You know, The kids aren't here. And I go, We don't. And this is what people say, Which is like nails on a chalkboard to me. Well, You don't need it. I'm like, I don't need it. I want it. And I think I really do need it, Honestly, Based on my astrology chart now. And it's not from an ego perspective of like, I just want a bigger house. It's like, I don't feel like I can breathe in here. Craziest thing, But now you just. . . It isn't crazy at all. You have a sun in the ninth house, Which is another part of the book, Which describes the most important position is what part of the sky was the sun in when you were born, Because that part of the sky gets lit up. And in your case, It's freedom. It's in the ninth house. It's open. It's big. It's spaces. It's absolutely running wild. It's honesty and bluntness. You can't stand when people aren't saying the truth. So, Of course, I can look at the chart and say, This girl needs space. I do. Space so I can breathe. I don't feel like I can breathe otherwise. My favorite spot is in my kayak floating around on the quay. Like, Oh, I can finally breathe again. That is so sweet. That just says you're a wild animal. That's how I feel inside my whole life. And I was the rebel, All the things, So fun. Tell us about compatibility. In the 1970s, When I was around 10, I started reading the newspaper, Looking for my astrology in the newspaper, And I'd see the Scorpio and I'd go, Okay, So I started reading, I'd go to the library, Because again, In the 70s, Nobody's talking about this except for you, But I didn't know you. I'm like home or going to the library. I'm like, I have to learn more about astrology. So I'm reading the compatibility book. So I know, You know, Scorpios go best with, Uh, Cancers and Pisces and, You know, We're all water signs and all, But you can, It's so much more than that. Can you expand that a little bit more for us? You just figure out the four elements in what your character is. It doesn't matter what your sun sign is. If you have a lot of planets and in your case you do have, Let's just do this. I just was looking at your chart. You have a lot of, You do have a lot of planets. Planets in water. So your requirement is intimacy and connection and psychology. Like you can't live without deep conversations. So now if someone's in your family who's superficial and talking about the weather and they keep repeating themselves and they're not really, You're going to be like, I'm going to hurt that person. Yes. That this is not working for me. I'm going to hurt your bitch. So you now, But then if someone walks in the room who has depth, It doesn't have to be Pisces, Cancer, Scorpio. You can't just use a sun sign. There's too many factors. But you can generalize in the name of conversation and say, If a water sign or a really deep soul walks in the room, You're like, Oh my god, I'm so excited. If someone is your double air sign, So if someone's intellectually fascinating, You're going to be intellectually, Because it matches you. We like the compatibility in astrology is so bad, Is we like people like us. It's so weird. So the quiet ones like the quiet ones. Not to start with. We are attracted to the opposite and then they start to annoy us. So then we go back to our real self. So my best friend who I talk to every day is an air sign. So her husband hands her the phone and goes, Oh my God. Because we have to talk. That's how we process. We process out loud. That's not true. I have a partner who doesn't need to talk. Now what do you do? I have that problem too. Not that it's a problem. It's not a problem. Right. Because you learned how to accommodate and you learned to dance. We did. And that's how we partner. And I have another partner, Because this is not just romantic. I have another partner who is really bossy. Well, I happen to love bossy people. Because why? Because I'm bossy. Yeah. So when there's similar characters and she touched boss, I'm like, Me too, Me too, Yeah. And we just scream at each other and laugh at each other. The person that's water who doesn't have that personality, That's not compatible. You start raising your voice and they're like, They think that you hate me. Mean and you're like, I was just telling the truth. Does that mean? I think you and I would get along just fine, Debra. Well, Yeah, Our charts really match. We do. Everything you're saying, I'm like, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. I'm a verbal processor, Like sit down with me, Let me blah, Blah, Blah, I'll be very vulnerable with you, I'll get it out, And then I'm done. I don't need, I'm done, I've cleaned it up, Processed, Healed it, See you later. And I don't have to talk about it again, But yeah, It's very- It's not true of everybody. Some people need to process quietly. It takes them a long time. They need to read about it and then read about it and then go to therapy and then they give it to you and it's finished. Some people never give it to you. They live inside their own private world and that's where they feel comfortable and they don't wanna, You know, You think of your grandpa, Like he's not sharing his verbal process. So when we learn astrology and know, Like my dad had no air in his chart and my brother was hurt. He thought, My dad never talked to him. Then when he took the class and found out my dad had no air, He was like, Wait a minute, He wasn't being mean to me, He was being himself. Yes. This is why I love astrology, Because I'm starting to understand now how my husband operates, How my children, I have two boys in their 20s, But I understand them in a different, Through a different lens. So you would be a perfect candidate for the school. It's only six weeks. It's a two, Three hour, Once a week where you study your own chart. And then the next class you study your kid's chart. So I teach it in such a way that Even if you think it's too abstract or it's too jargon or it's too weird, It's why we call it applied astrology. I'll make it so grounded that when you're done, You're like, That makes more sense. Just what you're doing right now. Like, Oh, He doesn't have air in his chart and he doesn't talk out loud. I may as well let him be. That's what compatibility is. So maybe we wouldn't be compatible if I kept trying to change him. And where in the world is there a woman that doesn't want to change her man? Oh, Look, No one's raising their hand. So true. So true. We, I think we all need to learn this. We really, Really all need to learn this and come to your school for sure. Because it's just, It's knowledge that you'll use for the rest of your life. I mean, This is not something you learn once and you're never going to learn it again. I find myself continuing to look at my chart and my husband's chart and I just keep going deeper and deeper. It's fascinating. But it's very hard to learn without, Like your questions are making it so obvious. You don't have a teacher. For one. And here I am. And the sky is so big. For God's sake, You guys, You can learn astrology from here to forever. I spent so many years, Literally 50 years I've been doing this. And as the years went by, It got simpler and simpler and simpler to answer these questions. Who am I compatible with? What's my life lesson? What's the timing in my chart? And that's what we teach. And you're so right. Astrology is the oldest science on earth. It was the original science 5, 000 years ago that got left behind because the church came in because we needed to get regulated. Our society wasn't acceptable. Like you, Like a free-running crazy person who just doesn't do what she wants. No. Government came in and then in came churches and they shut everything down. Well, We're now in the Aquarian age. It happened about a week ago. We were like, No, I'm not listening to the church and no, I'm not listening to the structures and these consensual agreements that were not even, I didn't even get a vote. I want free will, And I only have a little bit, So I'm going to choose what I eat. I'm going to choose who I play with. I'm going to choose what I say to myself in the mirror. I'm going to take some power back, And that's when the beginning of life, You know, Where we really start to, I swear to you, I. At 70 years old, I can say to you that it's embarrassing to say, But I think I just woke up very recently. I know people thought I was awake, And I'm probably relatively awake in terms of others, And I fall asleep and wake up all the time, And that's what astrology does for me. It keeps me on target. Am I fulfilling my purpose? Am I being myself? Am I self-loving? If I accepted the fact that I am super slow, You can't tell by looking, My Mercury's in Taurus, Like that took me years to go, Oh. And then you can change it to your point. Is there free will? Yeah. Once you know, There's a little inch where you can grow and grow. You know, If you know you're a talker and you interrupt the time, You can literally learn a skill that says, Take a breath. Or if you know your person that never talks. And you let the room take over and you hate being in social situations because you can't find your voice, You start practicing, Excuse me. Yes. That's natural. That's the first book, The Missing Element. You're going to go learn a missing element and be the one you don't want to do. But if you don't do the one that's missing, So water is sensitivity. You have a lot of this, Miss Scorpio. You've got three plants of Scorpio. So your sensitivity to the invisible, To the nonverbal, To the psychic, To the spiritual, Since you were born, As you said, Then air, Which you have a lot of. Air is communicating and talking and socializing and people and so interested and so curious and reading books and being superficial because everything's so interesting. You changed your mind. You can't find your purse. And where was I going? Ahead. Third one is the earth people. They're so grounded. They're not watching this right now. They're not watching podcasts. They're practical. They're working. They're making money. They're cleaning. They're going to Costco and getting Windex. They have the whole values around spreadsheets and doing all those insurance. Not my cup of tea. I love them. I hired them. And then the last category is fire, Which is what I have a lot of. Oh my goodness, It's so much fun. So I got up early this morning, Went for a swim and then I did my meditation and then I went for a bike ride. Like fire people are out of control. That's me. So you learn these personality traits in a very simple language. That's the first book. And then you figure out, Which one did I shut down? By the way, You have no fire in your chart. None? It's called a singleton. You only have one, So that's like zero. And it becomes predominant. And what does that mean? That this life you promised you'd learn about being bold. And standing out and being noticed. It's unnatural, But you promise this, Like this was your life lesson. I'm never going to sit still when I know I have to get up. I'm not going to let myself keep my mouth shut when I know I have to talk. You're like a hundred percent spot on. And that's your life lesson. And that's in the book. What are you going to do? Don't even take the class. Just go get, I don't believe in astrology, Open up to Saturn, Find your life lesson and then practice it. And you'll watch your healing begin. Or if you don't want to do astrology, Go get the four elements. You don't even need the astrology because the book doesn't require that and find out what your missing element is and go grow it. And then watch yourself go. So you're saying if somebody reads the book and they find out they have a missing element, Like my missing element you said is fire? Explain what that would look like in real time. So, Okay, So my missing element is fire. So that means I need to practice having more fire and being bold. That is what I'm here to learn. Being bold would be putting more out in social media and speaking my truth and not giving a shit what any excuse me. Sorry. Not giving a crap. My ruffle's coming out, Because you're bringing that out and I'm blaming you, Debra. Not giving a crap what anyone says, Which I have to say at age 58. I have arrived here and I don't think I'm done. No one thinks you're 58. That is so crazy. Doesn't everyone just get blown away when you say you're 58? Look at you! That's not seven. I don't believe it. I don't. I made it up. Okay. Wait, I had a question. The funniest thing, I don't believe it. People say that to me since I was very young. Why? Because we're alive and kicking. We've got the energy flowing through us, That's for sure. And you're in love with your job, And I'm in love with my job, And it's not a job. It's not a job. I was gonna say, It doesn't even feel like work. I love what I get to do. I love it. So, Wait, I forgot, I was just gonna ask you, I had a great question. I know, So Soul Contract. How do you define a sole contract? I have this quote that I got many years ago in the presence of Terrence McKenna, That most people won't know who he is, But he's a very famous botanist. And I had this moment where I heard the sentence, There are some people you can't get rid of. So they follow you around for lifetimes. And you don't know that they're soul counterattracts. But you can't, There's like, Whether it's your kid or whether it's your mom or whether it was your grandma, We are in pods and we repeat ourselves. And there's some people that we are so in love with that even though they bug us, Like that could be the grandpa. Like, Why do I love him? Because it's his soul, Not his personality, Because that comes and goes. The chart is very, Very transient. You'll never remember a thing about Michelle in your next life. Think about that. Yeah. My personality, You mean like being the rebel, Being out there, Having no fire, That all goes away. That goes away. Bye bye. But the essence of who someone is, Whether it's our best friend or our dog. The essence of who someone is never changes. It evolves or it doesn't evolve. Now, Why when we meet some people, We're like, Love that person. I traveled for a year and a half with Sting and we went all over the world and I got to work with him. He's a very old soul. And it's not, Yes, He's Sting and he plays music and he's handsome and blah, Blah, Blah. But when you know someone's essence and you erase the outer world. . . This amazing thing happens. It's like a, There's a great fairy tale that was written by a man that did parts therapy. It was by Hal Stone. It was a book that he wrote. Oh, Helen Sidra. Yes. Yes. That's parts therapy. That's who I studied with him. That's where it all started. I remember reading their books many, Like 20 years ago. That's where it all started. That's when I, In the 80s, That's where I was in graduate school. Yeah. And they tell this story about, It's a fairy tale. This man is a farmer and he comes in the morning to go get the milk and when he gets there, The milk's already in the canister and he goes to sleep that night and the next morning, So the next morning he goes, I'm waking up really early to figure this out. So he sees a ladder, These gorgeous women coming down the ladder and they're all milking the cows and he's like flipping out. And as the last one leaves, He grabs her hand and he goes, Please don't go, Stay, Marry me. I'll give you a life, I'll give you children, We'll flourish. It's a fairy tale. And she goes, Okay, Under one condition, Don't ever open up this little box. It's like a box the size of a ring. And so he says, No problem. So they have a life together and they have kids together and they move and they make beautiful food and they're having this life. And one day he comes home from work and he opens up the box. Well, She was a psychic. She was intuitive. She comes home and she goes, Did you open up the box? And he goes, Yeah, I did. And she goes, Well, What'd you see in the box? And then he says, Well, The funniest thing, I didn't see anything. And she started packing up her things and he's like, No. And she's like, My essence was in the box, But you couldn't see it. Ooooooooooooooooooo All the outer things, All my identity, All my success. Deborah Silverman and her little. . . No, My essence is seen by very few people and those are soul contracts. Those are the people that you can't get rid of because they know you from across time. Yeah. And you know you meet them. Yeah, I mean, Right away. I mean, It's a feeling. It's, It's a feeling, But you know, Isn't it true though, That the people that are closest to us are in the, You know, I always heard that when we come back over and over again. Our innermost circle, Those are the people we've been here time and time and time again with. And then, You know, The circle goes out and out and out. Is that what you would believe? Same kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. You just know it. I mean, I just, I feel it with certain people. So what's the essence of sting like? Can you even describe it? You all know it. I don't need to tell you. Like we just feel it. He walks on the stage and you're all like, Oh. Yeah. And he's congruent. What you see is what you get. That's who he was. So it's just like if I say to you, Dali Parton, Well, Of course we see her and her hair doing her boobs and her blah, Blah, Blah. But when she dies, What gets left? Is this angel that was so generous, That gave everybody everything, That gave everybody books. That's the essence of her, Not the external, But the actual fruits of her dharma, Of her service, Of her karma, Showed up with a quality that you can't put words to. It's like when Maya Angelou said, After you meet someone, It's not who they were, It's what you felt when they left. That's their essence. So true. Ooh, I love that. You know, It's interesting. I've had people that have looked at what I've had again, Astrology readings, Not to the depth of what you are doing, But many, Many years ago, And it keeps coming back. Oh, You're here to work with and learn all about self-worth. Do you see that in there? And how is that, I guess, A soul mission? Like, How do you define that? And it's so true because I, The first half of my life was, Depressed anxious. I got to figure it out Probably till I was in my 30s is when I really started having this big well around my first Saturn return What do you know this big pivot of I'm gonna figure this out. I was like on this quest I will figure out self-worth and self-love and guess what now that's exactly what I teach and I'm so grateful That I had those experiences because I can see codependency I can see people pleasing all that like 10 miles away because I know it so well now I can teach it and I can take you down deeper and dirty. We'll go get it. We'll flip your identity and transform and away we go. But do you agree? Is it self-worth? And how do we find that in our chart? I know you're going to tell me it's not that simple. And maybe it's Saturn. No, I didn't say what I said earlier. It goes through Saturn. You said it exactly. It was Aries, Like your life lessons, Aries is self-worth and power and being willing to stand up and really be bold and say, I know. But you have to deal with, You've got three planets in Virgo, So you criticize yourself all day. It's not simple in that sense. The manifestation of our psychology is so complicated. And it has so many twists and turns, Right? Everyone has crises. That's my big conversation. Crisis comes in through sad and return for good or for bad. 21 years old, 28 years old, 42 years old, 58 years old. These are markers in astrology where life will come and throw a curveball. It doesn't have to be bad. And the point of the story is. Becoming awake enough to know, Oh, I've been sent in return. And then you don't try to control it, Scorpio. You can't figure this out. Life will describe for you your destiny by its revelation, And you can't get in the way, You guys. The only thing you're doing to get in the way of your life this lifetime is lazy. The only thing preventing your fulfillment of your mission is lazy. If you don't have motivation, If you don't have get up and go, If you've lost your chi, You're not having fun, You're not having orgasms, You're not going outside, You're not drinking fresh water, You're not getting your feet wet, You're not getting yourself knocked out with joy somewhere at a movie theater or a concert, Then you're sleeping. And you're probably lazy because it's heavy here. It's a very heavy existence. It's gravity. You know, I'm watching my boobs go down. I'm watching the boys here fall off and their ding-dongs breaking. And that's what happens when you get older. Advanced Gravity. So true. The question is, If you're not lazy, What is the opposite of lazy? Discipline. And where does discipline come from? Discipleship. And what is discipleship? It's devotion to the one, To the Christ energy, To the Buddha energy, To the spirit. Well, I am so committed to that who I work for. I call it the sun because I'm an astrologer. My whole lifetime is I spend every day. I mean, My doctor is funny. When he got my blood test, He said, I don't know what you're taking for vitamin D because I've never seen a score like this. I was like, I don't take anything. I'm outside every day, All day. Wow. Same. Yes, Because your son's in the ninth house. So people that are spiritual know that mother nature, There is no greater teacher. Than being on a. Kayak in the ocean, Totally blocked to your essence, All that ego and all that noise and all the achievement and all the neuroses of your partner and your kids and your, It goes quiet. Mm-hmm. So true. So, So true. What, Gosh, This is so good. I want to keep asking you so many more questions. I know we're almost at the end here. Can you see, And I know you're going to say yes, If you have just one chart and not two. Just one chart. Are you able to see if a marriage or a partnership needs to evolve or end, Or can you see that in charts too, All about relationships, Would you say? Of course, Yes. But that's tricky. It's helpful to have the two charts. And we have people on our team that work specifically with relationships. If you want a relationship reading, You need two charts. But I think what you're asking is, Can one person make a difference in the relationship based on their own chart? Yes. And then talk to us about what's happening in 2026, 2027. Like, I know there's a lot going on here. What are you seeing astrologically and all the things? I hate these questions. We're doomed. Nobody wants to hear it. We're done. In a bad way, We're dismantling our society's constructs that have us locked down to believing that we are supposed to follow the leader. Bye bye. Yeah. We have a perfect leader to say, I am not following him. What a brilliant teacher. Yeah. This is 27 gets even stronger with Mother Nature's also screaming at us. Excuse me. Could you be respectful? And we're saying no. She's like, OK, Watch this. Yeah. 2027 is just more of the same. And then 2028, When Saturn goes into Taurus, The Earth is going to scream at us. Yeah. Is there free will? Will we have enough awakeness to contribute to the shifts in consciousness? Like I'm working with my community now because I live in Hawaii and there's just a hurricane and you have to know who your neighbors are and who has the generator and who has the water and who you're going to help, Who in the neighborhood needs to get picked up because they don't know how to drive anymore. We are going to go back to community. I keep hearing that over and over and over again. I keep hearing. . . We're going to go back to the four elements. We're going to go back to that which never changes. Water, Air, Earth, And fire. In the Tarot deck. . . The very first card is the fool. You ought to be an idiot to come here. That's the zero card. Like, Are you crazy? Yes, Because you don't come down to earth if you're not nuts. Then the very first card, The number, Because that's the zero card. The number one card is the magician. And on the magician's table are the four elements. And he says, You're not going to do any magic until you master your elemental constitution. And the second card is who you are. The second card is the high priestess. And then she's quiet and she says, Can we go do the emotional work to clear out the shit? Oh, That's my card because I love her. Duh! I do. I love, I have, You know, I have my tarot deck now. I got many, Many tarot decks. Oh, I love, That's why I'm so drawn to the High Priestess card. Interesting. Okay. I teach a Tarot class. I just finished writing a book. I haven't taken it to the public yet, But I bet you would love it. We are very similar, You and I. The frequency we came in with was inherited from past lives. So people are, It's a beacon. You've got a big light. And then people follow you around because they say, Can you get this shit off me? The high priestess knows how to And then, Yep, Because she's working with the magician right behind her who knows the four elements. In your case, It's your three chairs. It doesn't matter the system, But you're trying to facilitate a bandwidth that is inclusive to all of our human experience without judging it. Mmm. Mmm. Oh my God. Okay. I'm going to talk to you about something after we end here, But, Um, I have something for you. Okay. Last part of this, Only because I know the people that have listened to my show for many years, They love when If you can tell me anything about my chart, Go for it. I am on open book. I want to do that for the reading after the thing is over. It's not it's useful. This happens a lot in every podcast. Yeah, Like yes, You're in Saturn return. Yes, We know that you're in the middle of a progressive moon in Aries, Which means you've got a lot of energy right now. A ton. Yeah, So there you go. Where'd that come from? That's all I'm going to say. When we hang up, I'll go on. But I really like to talk to the audience on their terms. I want people to get a reading for you. But yes, If you're 58 to 60, Or you're 28 to 30, Or you're 40 to 42, Go get your reading because those are major tranches. But if you feel like your life is like rocking, But you can't put your finger on what The storyline is, That's what an astrologer does. They look into your soul, They put word to it, And you feel. . . Now, That's not all astrologers. Some of them talk jargon. At the end, You're like, I don't know what they said, But it was fun. I talk English. It's so powerful. Thank you so much for being on today. My soul sister, I'm like, I just feel like I met someone. I know, Where are you? And I'm going to stay on after, And we're going to give you a little tip. OK. OK. Thanks, Debra. See you guys in January.