The Illusion Of Control: Let Go And Be Free | Part 2

In the second half of the retreat, we open up for sharing and discussing how the ego often hides in plain sight—as "The Decision-Maker," the one who claims ownership after a choice is made and says, "I did that."

This closing session is a chance to look more deeply together. To reflect on what you noticed during the silent sitting and inquiry period. To bring your questions, your insights, your confusion -- whatever arose when you began to explore not just the ego, but the one who sees the ego.

Transcript

So,

How did we do on the retreat,

On the time on your own,

On the being,

You know,

Being on your own and just noticing the decisioning happening?

Did you notice the decision maker coming in at all?

Was there any sense of that sense of me?

So,

Sue,

You were more in the flow than for sure that sense of me was not there.

Yeah,

Because the sense of me always constricts the flow,

Right?

It always stops the flow.

So,

Yeah,

I mean,

That's,

In Julie,

Yeah,

More open,

More open,

Right?

Alice,

You're always so funny.

It knew the spotlight was on it and it behaved very well.

And that is the point,

Right?

That,

Yeah,

When the spotlight's on it,

When we're more aware of it,

Right,

We're not getting so easily tricked,

Right?

That was the purpose,

Again,

Behind the ego game series.

And we do have in the ego game series,

The controller,

Which is really,

I should probably call it the decider,

But it's,

You know,

The decision maker,

And then it thinks it's controlling everything.

Almost the controller is a subset of the decider.

But still just that,

That commenting coming in that,

That claiming after the fact,

Not in the decisioning in that moment,

But after I did that,

Claiming that,

That sense of ownership,

And in that sense of ownership,

A me claiming the decision.

And then there's always,

You know,

There's that duality that's arisen.

And so there's no flowing,

There's no,

There's no openness,

There's no spaciousness,

Because now there's a sense of me,

The doer,

The thinker,

The decision maker,

That's just done something.

And we stop the whole flow from happening.

So,

So yeah,

Just in that,

In being aware of when you're like,

Okay,

I'm on my,

I'm on the lookout for the decision maker,

For the illusion of it,

And how it comes with that contraction and how it's always claiming afterwards.

I did that.

So,

You know,

When you're on the lookout for it,

Then you don't see it,

Right?

It doesn't come up so much.

So,

You know,

That's,

That's amazing.

So hopefully that,

You know,

Again,

We can just keep that going.

Just keep it going as best you can.

Yeah.

So,

Michelle,

You are definitely in the flow.

You,

There's no way you were in the flow as the decision maker.

They,

They're,

They,

They don't,

They can't coexist.

They can't coexist.

And so,

Janine,

You're saying you would act and then think about it as a decision,

Maybe some,

Some reflection on that to kind of see how it was just acting,

Action,

Acting,

Taking place.

And it is,

It's that thinking about it.

It's either,

So it's,

It's coming in afterwards to claim it,

Or it's in that kind of beforehand.

It's never in the moment.

You,

You're never noticing the decision maker in the moment.

But it's,

So it's either afterwards,

It's claiming it,

Or it's before,

It's,

It's,

It's muddying up the waters when it's going,

Well,

Should I do this?

Should I do that?

Should I do this?

Right?

It's the ego,

The grasping,

And it's kind of,

Oh,

I need to make a decision.

I need to make a decision,

Right?

And,

And in that exhaustion of going back and forth in our head,

You know,

Inevitably it's just,

Oh,

You know what?

Yeah,

Let me grab my phone.

You know what?

Yeah,

Let me,

Let me go get a cookie.

You know,

Let me,

You know,

Let me just put the weights down and be done.

It always,

You know,

Then we just kind of give up on what it is that we're doing in this kind of state of exhaustion.

And then,

You know,

Again,

And then afterwards claiming,

Yeah,

I made that decision,

Right?

We were kind of pushing it,

But in the moment that there's a decision being made in that moment,

There's no decision maker to be found,

But then it comes in and it claims it.

Yeah.

And Tracy,

You're saying there were lots of,

Of shoulds coming up.

Lots of shoulds.

So I should be doing something.

I should have done that.

I should have done this.

I should have done that better.

Maybe something along those lines.

You know,

I mean,

For sure,

That's the ego.

Again,

This voice,

This talking to ourselves,

I should have done something as though,

Again,

It's kind of like,

I should,

The weather should behave differently.

The weather should be different.

It shouldn't be like this.

And,

And so we can see how ridiculous it is to apply it to the weather,

The weather,

You shouldn't be like that.

Clouds,

You shouldn't be up there,

Right?

You shouldn't be forming in that way.

You should be doing this,

What I want you to be doing.

And it's as ridiculous as saying that as it is to ourselves saying,

I should have been doing this.

I should have been doing something else.

You are a happening,

You are a happening,

Arising,

Changing moment by moment,

All these different conditions coming together.

And that's why when you see that,

When you're recognizing that there is no one thing,

No independent solid thing,

Making a decision,

Decisioning,

Happening,

Yes,

Lessons,

Learning,

Becoming wiser,

Right?

All of this knowledge,

Like all this decisioning happening through a funnel of all of our memories,

Our past experiences,

Our knowledge,

All of those things happening,

But no solid independent thing.

And so when we see that,

The happening is still happening.

It's just that now we're in tune with it.

I mean,

It was always still happening.

It's just that we were resisting it,

Right?

That we were imagining I was,

I'm controlling all of this and we were tight and we're constricted.

Instead of just letting go,

I'm not controlling any of this.

And the more that I try to control that,

Which I'm not controlling,

I just make my experience very unpleasant.

It becomes very heavy.

It becomes very,

You know,

And just Michelle,

What you're saying,

You weren't judging yourself.

So it becomes very punitive,

Very judgmental.

Why did I do that?

Why did she do that?

I should have done this,

Right?

And then back to the shoulds,

Right,

Tracy?

So it's amazing how it,

You know,

Every way that we're looking at the ego,

Every way that we're looking at it,

The chasing,

The resisting,

Right?

The reaching forward,

The pushing back,

The comparing,

The judging,

The narrating,

Right?

Just that constant commenting on our experience,

The controlling,

The decision maker.

I said the judge,

All of these different ways in which the ego arises.

It's just got a million different disguises,

Like just a million.

Like we said the other week,

It comes in as me as the more spiritual person,

Me as my divine self,

Right?

Just another image.

I'm just thinking about myself as something else once again,

Rather than seeing what I am not.

I'm not a divine image.

I'm not going to be some divine future image.

I'm not going to be something more spiritual in the future.

I'm a happening arising in each moment.

And I'm still here.

I'm still having the experience of Meredith.

I haven't disappeared in the seeing it.

All that's disappeared is the ego and the judging and the comparing and the chasing and the trying to be something I'm not,

The grasping and the attachment and the clinging.

That's all that's changing.

All that's just going away.

I'm still here.

But I'm seeing the reality of this experience,

Of this being,

Of this being arising interdependent,

Interconnected,

And changing moment by moment by moment.

Right?

And as you're saying,

Sue,

You just enjoyed being,

Right?

Just being.

We're always trying to add something on to our experience to try to be something more.

There's something lacking.

I need to be something more.

I need to be somewhere else.

We're trying to get somewhere to feel okay.

But all we do is we create more and more activity.

And so never looking and saying,

All this activity is stopping me from seeing the nature of what it is that's here,

That there is being.

Yeah.

Changing,

Changing,

Changing being.

It's far more interesting than this dribble that the ego is constantly telling us.

I mean,

The same stories over and over and over again,

Right?

I'm not enough.

I need to get over there.

They shouldn't be doing that.

I shouldn't be doing this.

What do they think of me?

What do I think of them?

Why did I do that decision back there?

I shouldn't have done that.

I'm such a bad person.

I'm such a loser.

I'm so bad at this spirituality.

It is the most boring story in the world.

And yet we endlessly get lost in it.

Because we think,

Oh,

If I were to just see that as the dribble that it is,

The repetitive dribble that it is,

And just be in the state of being,

We think,

Oh,

That would be so boring.

There'd be nothing to do.

But in fact,

It is just the opposite because it is so full.

First of all,

There's no lacking here anymore.

There's no lacking because the lacking only comes in when I'm telling myself I need something,

That I'm incomplete in some way,

And I need something,

And I believe it.

So there's no lacking.

There's no feeling incomplete.

There's no loneliness.

There's no separateness because all of that is part of the ego.

All of that goes away.

And you open up to seeing the world around you.

Hearing the sounds,

The sights,

Feeling,

Smelling,

Tasting,

Everything becomes so much richer,

So much fuller,

That in these little mundane moments that we take,

Sorry,

That we take to be mundane moments,

We see there's so much going on that we were missing before because we were up here.

Have to make the decisions.

Got a lot to do up here.

So we get so lost up in it.

And yeah,

It's just being.

It's just being.

And I'll just go back because I know there were a couple more.

So Kimmy,

Well,

First of all,

Cold were you?

I think you're in Melbourne.

Yeah,

So a little colder down there.

You started journaling and you told that voice to shut up and stop questioning and just do,

Your local park is magnificent with kangaroos,

All manner of wildlife,

Off to home and a warm cup of tea.

Oh,

Nice.

One thing,

One thing if I can just offer,

You know,

We don't have to tell the voice to shut up.

Remember,

Thinking's okay.

It's thinking there's something behind the thinker,

Thinking.

Thinking there's a thinker behind the thinking,

Right?

So I just,

You know,

We don't want to bring more resistance to it and even judgment to it.

It's just thinking because there's still going to be thinking happening.

Thinking,

Thinking's not the enemy.

Believing every thought is true and believing that at the center of that thought is a me,

You know,

And it does come with it.

It comes with the sense of me.

That's what we're identifying with.

So that's,

You know,

That's where it becomes a challenge for us.

But the more that we can even just say,

Oh,

Thinking,

No thinker,

No thinker behind it,

Right?

You can even be thinking of a decisioning that needs to be happening.

But as long as you're aware that there's no thinker,

There's no decision maker,

There's no thing,

Independent,

Solved,

Independent being that is at the end of this,

It's okay.

There's no stress.

Yeah,

It's just part of the flow.

And you'll notice the thoughts don't speed up with that.

They slow down,

But still thinking.

Thinking is,

Thinking is fine.

Thinking is not a problem.

If you think you're what's thinking,

It's a problem.

And the more that you pull back the veil on it,

When you notice the thinking,

And just you think there's a thinker,

Or you're thinking about a decision,

Oh,

Here's the decision maker,

Or you could even just say the controller,

Whatever kind of helps point you to it.

Whatever it is,

It's trying to take credit for this activity.

And where is it?

There's a sense of there's something here thinking.

I can feel the stress of it.

I can feel the stress of the decision maker or the controller.

And so you come in and you breathe and you feel it.

You get closer to what's here.

This is what's here.

A contraction,

A constriction.

Okay.

So you're here with it.

You breathe.

And then as you breathe and you're not trying to push your,

You're not trying to push away what's happening right now.

You're just with it.

It's okay.

And then it starts to dissipate.

And you're like,

Where was it?

What was I believing?

What was I stressing out a few moments ago about?

Who was stressing out a few minutes ago?

And I can't find it now.

And this is the continuous act of looking at what it is that our thoughts are pointing to,

Of what it is that we're identifying with in our thoughts,

Of continuously looking for it and seeing I can't find it.

Because of course you can't find it.

Each and every one of us is made up of millions and billions and trillions of different causes and conditions arising and changing moment by moment.

You can't find anything solid.

You won't find anything solid in the wave.

All right,

Paul,

You were using that example,

Right?

The wave coming out of the ocean.

There's nowhere in the wave that you could point and say,

That's where it is.

It's just all the things arising out of it.

The wave rolls along for a while.

It doesn't panic that it sees the shore ahead and goes,

Oh no,

Look,

All the waves are dying.

They're breaking against the shore.

It doesn't panic.

It knows that's where it goes.

Yeah.

And then it just dissipates back into the ocean,

Right?

It was never not part of the ocean.

It could think it was for a little bit when it starts panicking and saying,

Oh my God,

Look what's going to happen up ahead.

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

I can't go there,

Right?

That's the separate self.

Instead of just,

Yeah.

You know,

You're arising,

The wave arises out of the ocean,

Still part of the ocean,

Not separate from the ocean,

Not separate from the ocean.

So what this is,

What each of us is arising out of whatever it is that's fundamental here,

Consciousness,

Right?

Not separate from it.

Arising out as it,

Having the unique experience from all these different viewpoints,

But it's impersonal.

It's impersonal.

And so much of this comes down to this belief that I am the one controlling this.

I am the one that's making decisions.

I am the one that has free will.

And free will meaning,

Again,

Because someone might have a different definition,

What I'm always saying here is that free will from the standpoint is that there is a solid,

Independent,

Something here that is outside of this causal world.

There's nothing independent here.

Not one cell in this body is independent and outside of this interdependent,

Interconnected world arising.

It's just arising,

Happening,

Changing,

Changing,

Changing,

Just a happening.

Life is happening.

You're happening.

I'm happening.

We're happening.

And it is a flow.

It's just a continuous flow.

Nothing to hold on to,

Nothing to grasp at.

And we don't fall apart in the recognition of this.

Again,

You still,

You have your personality,

You have your preferences,

Right?

There's still things that you like.

There will be some things that fall off.

There will be some things that fall off,

But for 95% of it,

You'll see,

Yep,

You're pretty much,

You know,

Same preferences,

Same,

Generally speaking,

Same types of,

You know,

Generally speaking,

Same personality.

You don't drastically shift into someone else.

It's just that you just let go of all this baggage that you've been carrying around,

Of who you think you are,

Of who you think you need to be,

Of how disappointed you are in who you are.

You just let go of all that because you see you're just arising all these causes and conditions.

And then also,

You let everyone else be who they are.

Because they are their causes and conditions.

It doesn't mean if someone asks for our help that of course we would offer some help.

Of course we would.

But we wouldn't judge them for their behavior.

We wouldn't judge them for their thoughts because we,

How can we judge?

This is all just arising conditions and changing.

Arising conditions and changing.

Even all of the thoughts that we're having,

They're not your thoughts.

They're arising based on the culture that we live in,

The time that we live in.

I mean,

No one would have known 30 years,

30 years ago,

Or 40 years ago,

What googling something meant.

No one would have known what,

I'm trying to think of some of the internet terms besides googling.

But you get the idea.

Just even the terms that we use,

We use them because this is the time period that we're alive in.

Right?

If I was a boy born a thousand years ago in England,

There would be different thoughts here because of just what's happening in that culture,

That society at that time.

Not me,

Not my thoughts.

We're very much,

We're influenced by so many different things,

So many different factors.

Our chemistry,

Our biology,

Our DNA,

Our environment,

The weather,

But yes,

What everyone else is doing as well.

You know,

Our culture,

All of these things.

And this is how we arise.

And we arise and change and arise and change and just changing,

Changing,

Changing,

Changing,

Happening.

And we can either think that we're controlling all this,

Think that we're doing all this,

Push back.

When someone dares to suggest that I'm not,

People get very affronted by this.

They cling,

They cling to this idea that no,

I'm controlling this.

Again,

Another key,

Another telltale sign of the ego.

When you're clinging,

You're defending,

Right?

And it's not to force it down everyone's throat to say,

You've got to understand this,

Right?

No,

Right?

It's just for you to see.

You're here.

You're here,

So you're willing to look,

I assume.

And so just for you to see.

And to see if it makes life better.

If it doesn't,

Don't do it.

But I'm not asking anyone to take on a story just for the sake of,

I'm not asking anyone to take on a new story just because,

Oh,

Life will feel better.

That's where a lot of,

Again,

A lot of damage happening in spirituality.

Just I'll take on another story.

I'll get rid of this story,

But give me another better story.

We're not looking for a better story.

We're looking to see the nature of reality and the nature of ourselves.

And with that,

How do we flow?

Do we flow more easily?

Do we find that we have a sense of greater peace and harmony?

Okay.

Do we feel lighter?

Do we feel more at ease?

Okay.

I mean,

That's pretty good,

Right?

We're living more peacefully,

More harmoniously.

We're living in tune with nature.

The ego is not aligned with nature,

With reality.

Just an illusion of stories.

None of which are happening.

Just a little fantasy in my head,

And we just believe it.

So this is about looking and seeing.

You can't just follow this as a storyline for very long.

It won't last.

You have to look and see.

You have to look and see yourself.

Okay.

Let me go back.

And I saw Chris come on.

Good morning,

Chris.

I wanted to come back,

I think,

To Tracy.

Ah,

So Tracy.

So you're saying,

Is it still possible to be a busy person as you are just making actions on what arises in the moment?

Or is it all ego as you have made an executive decision that informs all the smaller actions?

I must look after the family,

And this looks like shopping,

Housework,

Going to work,

Gardening,

Walking the dog,

Etc.

Let me just go back to this.

Hang on.

Well,

For sure,

Yeah,

You can still.

I mean,

You have a family.

There's things that need to be done.

There's actions that need to be performed.

You're just doing it without the burden,

Right?

If you're coming into,

If you start telling your story,

I have to do this.

Oh,

I have to go to work.

Oh,

I have to do the gardening.

I have to do these things.

That's the story.

That's,

You know,

You're layering on the bags.

Oh,

Here we go.

Right,

That adds more weight.

But if there's a recognizing,

Yeah,

There's things to do.

There's things that need to be done.

Yeah,

You're doing them.

But without the burden of the story,

Without the burden of thinking that somehow,

You're controlling all of this.

The life that you have,

Tracy,

Sounds like it has a job,

Has family,

Has housework,

Has gardening,

Has a dog.

Right?

So,

These are the things that you have.

I,

You know,

These are things that all of us have.

I mean,

I don't have a family here.

But you know,

I was back taking care of my mom.

You know,

A lot of family responsibility that was taking place at that time.

Another family member,

Maria,

I'm still doing a lot,

You know,

With her.

And a job.

I mean,

I do this for a living.

I have three dogs.

There's walking the dogs.

There's gardening.

I like going out in the garden.

All these things,

We have very similar,

A lot of things that are happening.

But it's not like,

There's not a a burden by any of these things.

These are all preferences that this personality has been drawn towards dogs,

Wanting to care for a family,

Wanting to do this line of work.

These are all things that like,

Yes,

These seem to resonate,

And they're good.

But there's not like there's some big decision making happening behind all this,

Or some controlling this,

Or even more so,

Some belief that there's a me at the other end of this,

That's going to be happy.

Oh,

If I can just,

If I can just,

If I can,

You know,

Just get everything done today,

Then I'll be happy.

If I can just get all the dogs to do something,

Then I'll be happy.

If I can grow my business to a certain level,

Then I'll be happy.

Right?

There's,

There's just no,

None of that.

It's just doing things,

Because that's how this one,

That's the experience of this life.

That's the arising of this life.

Yeah,

Doesn't,

Shouldn't be doing something else,

Because this is how it's happening.

So how could it be doing something else?

This is how it's happening.

Yeah,

And this is how it's arising.

And,

And so you're,

You're going about doing all the things,

But without a doer.

The doer adds such a burden,

You know,

You're doing things,

And then it's like,

Oh,

I have so much to do.

I have so much to do.

Subject,

Object,

I've now created,

I'm doing the same activity,

Washing the dishes.

And one moment can be perfectly good.

Just happy washing the dishes,

Cleaning the plates,

Scrubbing the pots and pans,

Right?

Everything's fine.

It's washing the dishes,

It's not a problem.

The next minute,

Oh,

I have to be done with washing the dishes,

Because I need to get over there.

And now the dishes are a problem.

Now I need to get past them.

There's someone doing the dishes,

And now it's a problem,

Because I shouldn't be doing the dishes.

I need to get over there.

I've decided I need to be over there.

And so now it's just a burden.

So it's the same activity.

It's just,

Are we doing it with the burden or not?

Are we doing it with the suffering or not?

That's what I was saying before,

Kimmy,

Like with thinking is fine.

There's no thinker.

Just check in with that,

Right?

Even as you're thinking,

You're contemplating that there's no decision maker,

No controller,

Right?

Or you're contemplating emptiness,

Whatever it is.

Like the thinking is fine.

Notice when it starts contracting,

Ah,

But there's no thinker.

There's no thinker.

There's just thinking.

And it's just,

It's lighter.

It's freer.

It's like all of these things are still happening.

You're just not burdened anymore.

I mean,

That's the difference.

You're just not burdened.

Mark,

You like a beer and a beer now and then.

That's okay,

Too.

That's okay.

Yeah.

Do they love Mexican beef?

They probably,

Well,

They do have dry dog food that has beef in it.

Yeah.

They love all food.

My dogs are scavengers.

Two of them were,

They were found,

They were rescued dogs.

I mean,

The third one was,

Too,

But rescued from LA.

It's a little different.

So,

Sue,

You're saying being seems like opening or being instead of doing.

I mean,

Being and doing,

Same thing.

Being,

It's just the activity.

It's just the activity that's taking place,

Right?

It's when we turn things into a noun.

That's like,

Oh,

I've turned something into a noun.

When everything is,

In fact,

A verb,

A process,

Everything is an activity.

The doing is an activity.

The thinking is an activity.

The deciding is an activity.

Where I'm using the being in where you were talking before,

Sue,

Where there is just that awareness that what it is that's here is a being,

I-N-G,

A being,

A changing,

A changing,

So kind of using a little bit more in that reference.

And the teachings,

Sorry,

What did you say,

Sue?

Oh,

Sorry,

Kimmy,

I was reading.

Hang on.

The questions grew tentacles and as I was sitting in front of the heater and not practicing mindful meditation in nature.

Yeah,

The questions,

So the questions about questioning this,

Questioning the decision maker,

Kimmy,

Is that what you mean?

I mean,

You do want to make sure like you,

When we're questioning it,

What is it here?

Okay,

Good,

Yes.

That's making,

You know,

That we think there's something here,

You know,

Making the decision.

You know,

You really,

It's an exercise in looking.

It's not such an intellectual exercise.

It's not at all an intellectual exercise.

And we've got to be careful because not that we can't also think it through a little bit,

But if they're growing tentacles,

So they're starting to grip,

That's what I'm thinking of with the tentacles,

They're starting to grip,

The thinker has arrived.

And the sense of me and I need to know this,

I need to figure this out.

And that's also where we get so wound up on the spiritual path.

You know,

I've got to know it all now,

I've got to know,

And every time we do that,

We're just creating more resistance,

We're creating more suffering.

Because sometimes it's like,

Okay,

There's something dropping here a little bit,

Maybe it's making some sense,

Maybe it's not making sense.

But there's a seed that's being planted and you're being,

And maybe you look a bit and you're like,

Yep,

I'm starting to get it.

But don't grasp at it,

Don't,

Don't,

You know,

Or notice when you're starting to grasp at it,

I need to know,

Right?

It's only always think about,

It's only a problem when I think about it.

It's only a problem when I think about it.

Right?

And by the I,

The me,

The ego,

When the ego thinks about it,

Right?

It's not a problem otherwise.

And so,

Yeah,

Just being,

Being careful.

More like questioning retreat stuff,

What should I be doing?

So again,

That's,

That was getting a little bit,

Maybe a little bit too much in,

Oh,

Yeah,

What should I be doing,

As opposed to observing.

So when we gave you the things to be doing,

Like walking or sitting meditation,

Mindful movement,

Mindful eating,

Walking in nature,

Just mindful sitting,

Mindful being.

So again,

There,

Just to be,

Be mindful of like,

Okay,

What's gonna happen?

Okay,

I see there's something on the list,

There's a movement towards that.

Okay,

That's what's happening.

That's what's happening.

If we're starting to really question it,

What should I be doing?

Oh,

No,

That's like,

I'm starting to believe that there's something here making the decision,

Right?

I'm kind of preempting it now,

And creating stress instead of,

You can even in that moment,

Just,

You recognize what you're doing,

Breathe into it,

Because there's a little bit of stress,

A little bit of tension associated with it.

There always is,

Always comes with a contraction.

So breathe into it,

Feel it,

Feel a little settled down.

Okay.

Which direction is this one going to take?

Maybe it's not going to take a direction at all,

Maybe there's just sitting.

Okay,

There's just sitting.

Okay,

And then when there's movement later,

Like,

Ah,

Now it's moving again.

Yeah,

So,

So just,

Just to be a little observant on that.

You do,

Yeah,

I would still just suggest not,

Don't tell it to shut up.

Does it listen?

I'm surprised,

Maybe,

Maybe you have that kind of,

Maybe you can tell it to shut up.

I've generally found it doesn't work to shut it up,

But what I have found is if I bring my attention into the body and feel the tension,

Right,

Because now I've taken my attention elsewhere,

That it starts to dissipate.

Okay,

So let me just go back here.

So Alice,

An old unpleasant memory popped up,

Your ego thinks it will think of a thought and then I'll stop thinking about this.

Your ego thinks it will think of a thought,

And then I'll stop thinking about it in a crazy loop.

I'm not sure,

I'm not exactly sure if you want to elaborate a little bit more,

If you're looking for a comment on it.

And I'll come back to the anxiety and conflict at work question.

Let me just try and stay on,

On the topic with,

For the retreat for now.

Oh,

And that was nice when you passed the woman on the trail,

Kimmy.

And hi,

John,

Welcome.

So from Sourcy,

Am I saying that right?

So each and everything we do and wherever we are in that moment is important.

We get to where we're going in right time.

There's no alarm clock,

Everything has the same energy.

It's joyful,

Beautifully said,

Beautiful,

Beautifully said.

There is only this moment.

There is only this moment.

And while it seems like there's a,

We're going somewhere,

It's just,

Again,

This moment.

And if we can't find the peace and the,

The joy,

Or even just the peace,

I'll say,

If we can't find the peace in this moment,

You will never find it in whatever future moment you think you're going to get to.

Because that will just be the present moment again.

And if you,

If you don't know how to be with what's here,

Whatever you're getting to in conventionally speaking,

Another moment that on linear time will be in the future,

It will still be the present moment.

And you won't know how to be with it because you're so used to chasing some future moment.

There's just everything that's arising right now.

All this is arising,

The trillions of conditions into what's arising right now in this moment.

This is it.

This is it.

If we're looking for more than this,

You are going to be disappointed.

But that's what the ego is looking for more than this.

It wants fireworks,

It wants the praise,

It wants the success,

It wants things to add on to itself.

And we've all tried that.

It's not working.

We've all tried it.

It doesn't work.

I mean,

It's comical how much,

How much we've tried it and how much it hasn't worked,

Right?

I mean,

To think how many times we keep spinning our wheels,

But no,

The next thing,

But the next thing,

But the next thing,

Right?

Instead of looking at it,

What is it that keeps egging on to the next thing?

My God,

It's just this thought process that I've taken to be me,

The sense of me.

Oh,

Alice,

What you're saying,

The thinking ego thinks the solution is more thinking.

Yes.

Yes.

Sorry.

Yeah.

I didn't catch that.

Yes.

And then the loop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because the ego,

You know,

There's a,

There's a thought created problem.

And now I got to think of a solution to that thought created problem to appease a little thought created me that will only be satisfied for a moment until it goes.

But now the next thing,

But now the next thing,

It doesn't lead to less thinking yet leads to more thinking.

Because if the thinking,

If the problem that I have to solve,

Because I'm thinking about some problem that needs solving,

I made it up.

And so if I've made up this thought created problem,

The only way to come up with a solution is more thoughts,

Right?

Because it doesn't really exist.

There's not really something I can do.

I've just got to think more thoughts.

And it just keeps us stuck in this loop,

This endless loop of thinking.

And the ego is not going to get this either,

By the way,

We also think like it's the ego that's going to get this.

And then,

You know,

Kind of the jig is up.

That's not what this is.

But we can use thought and we use thinking to look back on what it is,

What we think is thinking.

And in that,

In seeing there's nothing there,

Exposing the illusion.

And therefore,

And then in its absence,

Once the illusion is gone,

It's the being,

Oh,

It's the awareness.

It's,

Oh,

I thought I was that.

No,

You were never that.

You were never that.

So again,

It's like the ego thinking it can like,

Oh,

If you just get more knowledge,

Alice,

If you just get more,

A new practice,

If you just get these things,

Then you'll finally see me for being the unreal thing that I am.

No,

You're not.

You know,

It's again,

It's just egging you on.

It's just egging you on.

It's not going to get this,

Right?

And even that's why we say like there's this intellectual understanding.

And then all of a sudden the conditions,

All the conditions arise,

And then you just hear it again in a different way.

Something,

Just some kind of word kind of pierces some statement and go,

Oh,

And there's like an unveiling or in the,

In the looking at it,

Oh,

And it's unveiling.

And it's just,

All of a sudden the conditions come together and you see,

And sometimes it's just,

It's a seeing and it's just for a few moments.

And then the ego comes in again and goes,

Wow,

Wow,

Look at me.

I'm seeing there's no ego.

And it's like the ego coming in to claim that experience of not seeing,

Of seeing through it,

Right?

It's just always coming in to claim it.

And so we have to be so careful of that because we're so quick to say,

Oh,

I've got to tell you,

I've got to tell you how awake I am.

It's like,

You're not telling me how awake,

Your ego is telling me how awake you are.

You wouldn't have any need to tell anyone.

It's the ego that wants to do that.

So we have to be so careful of the ego wanting to,

You know,

Oh,

That experience was so amazing.

And we got to get back to it.

You know,

It's,

It's just the master of disguises.

And nowhere does it disguise itself more than in spirituality.

Nowhere more than in spirituality.

It loves it.

It loves it.

And yet,

You know,

I say this as I find this path incredibly helpful,

Incredibly helpful in guiding in seeing it,

But also to just be so careful.

And you always know there's always a contraction with it.

It's so sneaky.

It's so deceptive.

But there is always a contraction with it.

So whenever there is that contraction,

Just this is where mindfulness is like you recognize there's a contraction,

There's a sense of,

I do feel like often it's just that sense of something's not quite right.

Something's just,

I don't even know what I'm thinking about.

Something's just not quite right.

And there's the contraction and it's the coming in and the breathing and the feeling it.

Oh,

And then the looking,

Right?

This is,

This is going,

This is really investigating.

Who is it that was upset a moment ago?

Or who is it that felt threatened?

Because even in that something's not quite right,

There's like that little feeling of being threatened,

A little bit of fear.

Who is it?

And the looking and going,

There is no one.

There is no thing here.

No thing.

Just a process of changing.

And because of this,

Of all the previous conditions and all the thinking that happens and we think,

We do think,

Well,

I'm saying thinking's not a problem.

And that's true.

I will also say this is where we can,

You know,

There's a lot of paradoxes in spirituality.

As a culture,

As a society,

We generally overthink,

Right?

There's a lot of thinking going on,

A lot of thinking that there is,

And thinking with the idea of a thinker,

A decision maker,

A controller,

A doer.

You know,

All of these,

You know,

Kind of this overthinking that's happening all the time.

I totally lost my train of thought on that.

I don't know where I was going with it.

But there's a lot of thinking,

A lot of thinking.

The thinking went,

It just went.

It just ended.

I don't know where it went on that.

Maybe it'll come back up later.

But thinking,

Yeah,

Just to end on the L's,

Thinking's not going to get you out of it.

Thinking's not going to get you out of it.

Yeah.

Oh,

Good,

Tracy.

Yeah.

So,

Yeah.

The doing.

Oh,

Thank you,

Alice.

Thank you for the donation,

Sweetheart.

Thank you.

Okay.

And then,

Yeah.

And Mark,

What you're saying.

Who wrote that book?

I think it was Jack Kornfield,

After Enlightenment,

Chop Wood,

Carry Water.

Or it's a Zen saying or something.

But it's true,

Like you're still doing the same things,

But you're not doing it with the heavy burden.

You're not doing it with the burden anymore.

So Sue,

So you asked yourself,

Am I in the past,

The present or future?

So that's bringing a sense of mindfulness to what's going on in your experience.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

Great way of just acknowledging.

Yes.

And you are in this,

We're all in the space-time continuum,

Kimmy.

So there is a conventional linear time.

Of course,

There is a conventional linear time.

Conventional.

But,

And we do live in the conventional world.

So in seeing this in what we're doing and seeing through the illusion of the ego,

It doesn't mean that the ego doesn't have its usefulness.

Right?

That sometimes there is some usefulness there.

Very rarely,

Very rarely.

But sometimes there's a useful thought that pops up.

And it's useful to say,

Yes,

This is Meredith.

And to know where Meredith lives and to know these are Meredith's dogs.

And,

You know,

These are useful things.

But we're also trying to see past all these,

Even these identity,

Or Meredith as the teacher,

Meredith as the sister,

Meredith as the friend,

Like,

Yes,

There are these roles that Meredith has,

These different roles.

But not to get caught up in believing any of them as being me.

It's just that,

Yes,

When I interact with people in one format,

You know,

It's,

It's probably different than when I'm interacting with my dogs,

Or with,

You know,

A stranger or something that yes,

There's and there's slight variations,

Like we're always a little bit different.

We're arising based on the conditions,

Right?

And so a little bit different.

So it's not getting caught up in any of those identities.

Not putting anything before the friend,

I'm the good friend.

You know,

Or because if I'm the good friend,

I can be the bad friend.

Right?

Or,

You know,

So just to be really careful.

I'm getting caught up in the identities,

You know,

Getting caught up in it.

You're not any one thing,

You're not,

You're not a thing.

You're just constantly changing,

Constantly changing.

That's,

That's the reality.

Right?

So when we get caught up and we call it,

Just tell ourselves we're one thing,

Right?

This makes no sense,

Right?

But that we're not going to have that conversation with the family around the dinner table or something that's not going to make any sense to them.

So there's a kind of a conventional,

Like,

You know,

We're understanding what's going on,

We don't need to explain it to everyone else.

You have to be so careful that explain,

No one else needs to know this,

Unless they're interested,

Unless they ask,

Right?

That we don't need to explain it.

But it's just it's for us to see.

And it's for us to,

To be able to,

To move,

You know,

To live our lives with greater freedom and ease and less judging of ourselves,

Less judging of others.

Because if I'm not getting attached to any identities,

There's no attachment there.

Just think how much we lose through that.

Right?

I don't have to be something.

I don't have to be the good teacher,

I don't have to be the bad teacher.

I can just be the teacher,

You know,

And even,

Even that in itself is a role,

But it's like,

But don't,

Don't put anything ahead of it.

Because now I've got to show up as that.

That's a heavy burden.

There's a lot of stress in that.

Sometimes the conditions will arise in one way,

Sometimes in another way.

But to not get attached to that,

Because if there's attachment,

Right,

If you're the good spouse,

Then you can be the bad spouse,

Right?

Just you're the spouse.

There's,

You know,

In that relationship with the spouse,

You want to show up and do your best.

In the relationship,

You know,

When I'm coming on to these lives and,

And,

And talking,

Yes,

I want to show up and,

And,

And share and,

And do my best.

But,

You know,

I have to be very mindful of any outcome,

You know,

Being attached to any outcome.

Because if there's attachment to an outcome,

Then you know who's,

Who's talking is the ego,

Right?

We don't want the ego.

We don't want the ego talking.

So,

So there is this conventional reality of time and space and things that we're going to be doing and in the future on that time space continuum.

And,

You know,

We don't want to go to this extreme of,

Oh,

It's all just this moment.

And,

You know,

Kind of,

Oh,

I don't have,

You know,

I told people I'd turn up,

But we'll see what the moment presents.

You know,

I think that's being,

I think that's where the ego wraps itself up again,

Just like,

I'm so in the moment,

I'm above all that conventional stuff.

It's like,

No,

Be in the moment.

But you know,

If you said you're going to turn up at three,

Turn up at three.

Right?

So there is,

There's a,

I do find there's,

There's a balance with the conventional and the absolute.

So we're trying to see through the illusion to see the absolute,

But to understand that we live in the conventional.

And Sue and Tracy,

Thank you so,

So much.

Thank you for those donations.

Thank you so much.

And hi,

Bolivar.

Good to see you.

And Dini,

The eggo egg for iThoughts.

Yeah.

Yes,

That's,

That's great.

Philip Wade,

IT teacher says,

Thought cannot heal your pain,

But presence will transform it.

That's beautiful,

Sue,

Who put the Philip Wade.

Yeah.

Cannot heal your pain,

But presence will transform it.

Yeah.

Whatever we can come to in the present moment,

And I'll come back a little bit now,

Someone had mentioned about anxiety and conflict at work.

Whatever we can come to in,

In the present moment,

Whatever we can come in and experience,

You know,

We're shifting our relationship to it.

Normally,

What happens is when we're feeling some discomfort,

That's when we start getting lost in the stories,

And we start telling ourselves a story about what's happening,

And this is such a nightmare.

And why is this happening to me?

And why is this person at work doing this?

And I can't go on like this anymore.

And I'm so anxious,

Right?

So we get so caught up and worked up in what it is that's going on,

Instead of saying,

Okay,

Well,

That's not happening.

Because if there's some anxiety and conflict at work,

Most likely,

You are not,

You know,

You're thinking about it,

Even when you're not at work.

Or you're thinking about it when you're not with the person that's creating the conflict.

So we're the ones that keep bringing it in,

We're the ones that keep pushing back on it.

And the more that we can come to be with what's here,

Right,

And recognize,

Okay,

The thoughts are a story,

They're,

They're not happening.

And I'm pushing back on it.

But there's something here,

There's a thread of something here that is creating,

There's a habit here.

And so now if I can keep,

I can just keep staying with the thoughts.

And like Alice,

Like you were saying before,

Like,

I could just,

You know,

Oh,

That person's so annoying.

And how am I going to deal with that?

No,

Let me come up with a solution.

We can just stay in that crazy loop of thoughts just going round and round and round again.

It never works.

We never find relief,

We get exhausted from it.

And then we kind of move on to something else.

But then it comes back up later.

Oh,

That's right.

I forgot I had that problem.

And so in this way,

Saying no,

Come to what's happening.

Feel your feelings,

Those are real,

The physical sensations of what you are experiencing,

Those are real.

And so come in and breathe.

They are never the the story of anxiety is terrifying,

Is is scary.

But the feelings of anxiety,

It's just a high arousal state in the body.

It's just a high arousal state that we have called anxiety.

But you come in and you feel it and you breathe into it and you create space.

And it's like,

It's okay that you're here anxiety.

It's okay.

And in this way,

I will talk to my feelings.

Oh,

It's okay,

You're here.

Right?

No judgment.

That's what's here.

That's all the conditions are arising that that's what's happening.

There's some anxiety.

Okay.

Breathe into it,

Feel it,

Be with it.

Right?

And as you allow it to be,

You'll notice that slowly,

Because now your attention is in the body instead of the the thoughts,

The story that we're creating all the anxiety.

Right?

And you're allowing what's here.

So you're no longer stuffing them down,

Pushing your feelings away.

You're allowing what's here.

And through that,

Through the breath,

Through mindfulness,

Through presence,

You notice,

You know,

It starts to break up a little bit,

It's not as strong,

It's not as intense.

And you start to become less identified with it.

And so you start to feel a little bit,

A little bit of a sense of spaciousness of ease,

Even within the discomfort.

Right?

And,

And the more that we can do that,

Right,

The more that we can come out of the story and into the body to feel,

Because a lot of the time we do have,

You know,

We might have a conflict at work,

Or conflict with a family member.

But it's usually that conflict is a very small amount of time,

The actual conflict.

But what's happening is all of the time afterwards,

Where we just can't let it go,

Where we just keep thinking about it,

And thinking about it,

And thinking that there's such a problem,

It's like,

You had a 10 minute,

Uncomfortable interaction with someone.

And we can spend 10 hours dwelling on it,

Freaking out about it,

Getting angry about it,

Pushing back on it.

Right?

And so it just keeps us trapped.

Every time we come in,

And we feel it,

We recognize,

We bring ourselves back,

And we use our practice,

Because,

Hey,

Why not come back?

They're not here.

Why are you,

You know,

Don't,

You don't have to keep them in your head.

And so every time you come back to the present moment,

And now you start to feel less threatened,

You feel less like a victim in the story,

You're a victim of this person that's not even here.

And so you're recognizing the problem is here.

It's the way I'm relating to it.

I'm feeling like a victim,

I'm feeling threatened,

Feeling small,

Because that's all the separate self.

And you realize you can you feel like,

Okay,

I'm okay.

And maybe from that state of mind,

From that state of mind,

You can now be like,

Okay,

It was a problem.

You know,

Maybe I need to say something to them.

Maybe I need to set a boundary with this person.

Maybe I'm in a predicament where it's,

It's actually I'm just in a difficult spot.

You know,

I really,

I really,

It's my boss,

I can't really do anything about it.

And I don't really want to leave this job,

Because generally,

Things are pretty good.

It's just been a rough period,

Like,

Okay,

So my practice is just to keep coming back and bringing myself back into the present moment.

I mean,

Almost always the conflict we're having with the other person,

It's not like they're standing over our head 10 hours a day,

It's usually little 10 minute interactions that we just,

You know,

We pick it up,

And we just can't put it back down again.

So that's on us.

That's on us.

But we can absolutely,

Each time we bring ourselves back,

And again,

Where was the person that was anxious a moment ago?

Who was suffering?

And you look and you see,

Ah,

Couldn't find anything solid there,

Can't find it,

Can't find the separate self now.

Right,

There was an arising,

It was an uncomfortable situation,

Unpleasant situation to be around that person.

And then it was changing.

But I'm still carrying it,

I'm still holding it.

I was the one still holding it,

But it changed,

It's over,

It's done.

I mean,

This is the difference between,

You know,

Animals and humans.

Like something happens to an animal,

I see this with my dogs all the time,

They'll have a little skirmish.

And a few minutes later,

They're best friends again,

Right?

The play just got a little rough or something,

Right?

But if it was humans,

You know,

They'd still be,

I'm still so angry at you for what happened earlier,

Right?

They just,

We hold on to things because we can because of thought.

It's where the intellect,

The intellect that we have becomes a double-edged sword.

Right?

It's a benefit,

But it's also can be a burden,

Because we can hold on to things.

It's that story of the two monks that are coming up to the river to cross a river,

Cross,

Sorry,

Cross a,

Or a small river.

And they get to the side of the water,

And they see this beautiful young woman a few feet down from them.

And she also needs to cross over the river,

Get to the other side.

And she asks one of the monks that they would carry her across the river.

Both the monks look at each other,

And they're like,

Oh,

My God,

Like,

What do we do?

This is kind of a difficult situation for us,

Because we're not supposed to touch women.

And the senior monk decides,

You know what,

I'll go do it.

He goes,

Picks her up,

Carries her across the river,

Puts her down.

The other monk comes running along.

And off they go continuing on their walk.

And the whole time they're walking,

The younger monk is just seething.

He's just furious at what he's seen the senior monk do.

And eventually he stops him.

He's like,

I just got to say something like,

I cannot believe what you did back there.

I can't believe you picked that woman up and carried her across the river.

Like you broke all these vows.

You set a terrible example for me.

And I just,

I don't even know what to make of this.

And the senior monk just looks at him,

And he says,

Are you still carrying her around?

I put her down hours ago.

Right,

That's,

He's the senior monk.

Because it's,

It's like,

You know,

We carry these things around,

And we make this big story out of it.

And how is this affecting me by what you did and all this stuff?

And it's like,

Just put it down.

And the way that we put it down,

Because it's not easy to put things down,

But we put it down by coming in and feeling in the body.

It's the constriction,

The thoughts,

And then the constriction,

And that becomes this feedback loop.

So we've got to break the loop by coming in and feeling it in the body.

Breathing,

Allowing what's here,

Anger is here.

Okay,

That's what was arising,

Right?

Okay,

Anger is here,

No problem.

Just breathe into it,

Feel it,

Let it be.

It's okay.

And you'll notice then,

Ah,

The anger dissipates.

Who was the one that was angry?

I actually can't find it now.

Maybe it never existed.

Maybe it was just a thought,

Just a thought that was pointing to someone that was angry,

And I got so caught up in it,

Believing it,

Believing that I was somehow offended over here,

Believing that somehow I was harmed,

When it had nothing to do with me.

Because it's all impersonal.

So,

Yeah,

With the anxiety,

The conflict at work,

Or just conflict with other people,

I mean,

So much of our problems really are conflicts with others.

You know,

Misunderstandings,

Dealing with difficult people.

And,

You know,

We all have it,

You know,

We all experience it.

And,

And yet,

It's usually the interactions are very,

Are not very much,

Particularly in proportion to the amount of time that we spend thinking about it.

So that's on us.

That's on us.

Right?

If they're not even here,

That's on me.

And we have a practice,

We know what to do with this.

And that can lead to deeper realizations and insights and awakening.

If we didn't have the difficult people in our lives,

We wouldn't know what we needed to work on.

We wouldn't know.

Right?

So it's where our practice is.

So to the woman or the man that had asked about the work conflict,

I would suggest starting there.

Just bring it into your mindfulness practice.

Bring yourself back down.

Get out of the state of being threatened and feeling like a victim.

So you can think,

So you can think clearly,

What are my options here?

Maybe I don't want to leave the job.

Maybe I do.

Maybe it's bad enough that I do.

Okay.

Don't do it in a firestorm in the middle of the day,

Without having another job secured.

Right?

I mean,

That's what people do when they get all worked up.

And then all of a sudden they blow up because they never acknowledged the feelings and they carried around the conflict day after day after day,

Even when it wasn't happening.

And then they blow up and they end up quitting over something,

Feeling so vindicated,

You know,

Sorry,

Feeling so justified.

I'll show them.

I'm walking out and it's like,

Oh,

Who was I showing them?

Because I'm the one that's suffering now.

Because now I just quit my job and I don't have another job.

And now maybe I also made such a fool of myself,

I can't even use them for a reference.

I mean,

So often we end up cutting our own nose off to spite our face.

Right?

And that's what that means when,

Because we can't take it anymore.

And why can't we take it?

Because we weren't able to put the thoughts down.

We didn't use our practice.

There's always going to be difficult people.

This path does not mean,

Oh,

All of a sudden everyone's going to be nice to us and no one's ever going to disagree with us and no one's going to ever complain to us.

That is not what it means.

It just means,

You know,

Generally speaking,

And I think we would all say that we found this,

It just doesn't bother us as much.

Right?

We start to see really more clearly and really clearly,

As we were talking in the first section,

Like when you see that all of this is causes and conditions,

That all of this is interdependent,

Interconnected,

Nothing independent here.

Right?

And someone's being harmful,

Someone's being unkind.

I mean,

You really do see like,

Man,

You know,

They're just their causes and conditions.

If I'd had their causes and conditions,

I would have done exactly the same thing.

I wouldn't have done anything differently,

Because that's what those causes and conditions were leading to.

Couldn't have done anything differently.

So there's not hatred for that person.

There's no anger for that person.

There's compassion.

Doesn't again mean that we don't set a boundary,

That we don't say something,

Right?

If we recognize it's a relationship that's important and it's starting to go on the rails,

Like because of it,

Like doesn't mean we can't say something without attachment to a result,

But recognizing,

Yeah,

I should probably say something about this.

They may not be aware that it's pushing me away.

So yeah,

There's just,

There's always going to be difficult people.

And part of that is that there's always going to be people that are suffering in the world.

There will always,

And the more difficult the person,

The more they are suffering.

It is absolutely directly proportional.

They are suffering,

They are suffering.

And then,

You know,

It becomes,

You know,

And it's challenging being with people like that.

So it's okay also to say,

I need to limit my time with that person.

I could have compassion for so long.

And then eventually my ego wants to come out like,

Okay,

That's good to know that.

That's good to know that.

But not to get lost in the story of trying to think my way out of it.

If they just do that,

And if I could just say this to them,

And then that would put them in their place,

And then they would do this,

And they would do that,

And then I would do this,

Right?

And just getting stuck in this endless loop.

Like that's just,

It never leads to resolution.

It usually almost always leads to us doing something irrational,

Because we just can't take the stories any longer.

We just can't take it any longer.

So yeah,

I mean,

Don't assume the difficult person is,

Oh,

I can't practice now because I have this difficult person in my life.

My God,

No,

You've got your practice because there's a difficult person,

And they're pointing you and showing you a place that you're not seeing.

There's a part of you that's like,

No,

I'm still attached to something here.

Okay,

Good.

Thank you for letting me know I wouldn't have known.

I wouldn't have known I needed to work on that.

Thank you.

I mean,

You don't have to thank them in person,

But you can just like,

Thank you.

Yeah,

Now I know that.

Okay,

I hope that helps.

Let's go back here.

Oh,

Sue,

I'm glad,

Glad that you're enjoying this.

And so I say,

And I hope I'm saying your name right,

Where you're saying we're always students,

Others are teachers.

I found the most helpful thing is to be curious.

Yeah.

But every,

I mean,

Even if when someone's sitting in the teacher role,

It's not that,

You know,

It's not that there's not learning happening here.

Right?

It's not one thing,

Right?

There's absolutely learning happening as well.

Right?

Learning from all of you.

And,

And just having this format to talk these,

You know,

To,

To share in this way that yeah,

That there's absolutely,

Um,

You know,

It works both ways,

Works both ways.

And Tracy,

So you're saying,

It's tricky when others see themselves as the victim and directly blame you for what is their causes and conditions.

It,

It is tricky.

Yeah.

When people blame us,

It is.

I'm not,

Yeah,

I'm not denying that it's not tricky,

But you've,

You've got to,

You know,

In the,

In the moment of recognizing that,

In the moment of recognizing that come in and feel it because you will then turn yourself into a victim and you don't want to do that.

So you,

You want to come in and feel that,

Right?

Feel the blame,

You know,

Feel what that feels like because in the blame,

You know,

Someone's blaming you for their,

For their problems.

Right.

And then you're pushing back on it and you can look,

You can have some compassion.

And really when you're looking at it,

When you're really with what's here,

Like,

What is it that's here?

Oh,

That I don't want to be seen in that light.

I don't like it when people see me in that light that they've put me in that light of that.

I'm the blame.

Oh,

Right.

This is when we start looking and being honest with ourselves.

Yeah.

That's what it is.

There's a fear here of being seen as me being seen as the difficult person.

Oh no.

Right.

But if we can come in and feel that and be with it,

Then we won't turn into the victim.

Right.

And the more that we can come in and be with it and to have compassion for ourselves in that moment,

That it's difficult.

It's difficult when someone sees you in a,

As the reason for their suffering and it's blaming us like,

Yeah,

That's not a,

An easy situation to be.

I mean,

That is really tearing at our image of ourselves,

Isn't it?

I mean,

If it wasn't,

There wouldn't be the resistance.

So that's where it's good for us to see like,

Oh,

I guess I still need people to see me in a certain way.

Well,

I guess I'm still setting myself up for suffering then.

Okay.

So I need to come in and feel this,

Feel it in the body,

Feel the tension,

Breathe into it.

This is the feeling of someone seeing me negatively.

Ooh,

Feel that.

Be with it and say,

Tell yourself,

It's okay to feel this.

This is tough.

It's okay.

Right.

Use some self-compassion to be with what's here.

You're never going to find a solution through your thoughts.

It's only in coming in and being with what's here so that you can really identify and like,

Oh,

Once again,

The ego was getting,

My ego was responding to it and getting caught up that I had this image that I,

That I need everyone to see me in a particular light.

Most people's image gets shattered around that and we resist it.

And then we stay up and how dare they think that?

Don't they know I'm spiritual and I'm doing all these things?

How dare they?

Right.

We keep spinning around in that loop.

It's never going to come to some resolution there.

You've got to come in to feel this and recognize,

Yeah,

Whoo,

I guess I still,

You know,

There's something here that's,

There's,

There's still a belief here that my peace,

My happiness is predicated on everyone seeing me as a good person.

Well,

Isn't that a recipe for disaster?

Right.

And so we can really feel that,

Be with it so we can settle down and then we can see it more clearly.

Wow.

If that's what I need for peace,

Then I will never find peace.

Remember my peace will be very fragile.

And in fact,

It will be so fragile because I will be so concerned of how everyone is seeing me all the time.

Always,

You know,

You,

You can't go anywhere then without thinking,

Am I acting the right way?

Do I,

Do I appear peaceful right now?

Am I appearing the right amount of peaceful right now?

Am I speaking the right way?

Am I saying the right soothing words?

Did I say the wrong thing?

Oh no.

You can see all the attachment and all the suffering that gets blocked,

Gets locked up in that.

Right.

But we do,

We,

We think like,

Oh no,

But I need everyone to see me in a particular light.

You don't,

But you need to see that you need that because if you think you need that,

Then you need to be able to come in to examine that,

To investigate it.

As you were saying,

I think Swarsi,

You know,

To be curious about that,

Huh,

What is it that's going on here?

Because if you truly want freedom,

If that's what you want,

Not peace based on certain conditions,

If you want true freedom and peace,

Then I have to be able to let go of that image that needs everyone to see me in a particular light.

That too,

I have to let go of.

And we get there by coming in and feeling and being with it and being compassionate and being kind with ourselves saying it's okay that that's what's arising.

And it's okay that there's a hurting here.

Yeah,

That's okay.

Be with it,

Be with it,

Breathe into it,

Feel it,

Allow it to be here.

And that's what helps you see more clearly like,

Yep,

That's what was going on.

I thought it was that they were just blaming me and I was just so angry at them for all this.

I was so busy pushing back.

I wasn't even seeing that I was that really what was going on is that the image of me as this good person was getting a little askew and that I didn't even see how attached I was to that.

Can't get attached.

I mean,

There can't be any attachment to anything.

So it shows us,

Yep,

That's what I thought.

That's what I thought.

Okay,

Good.

Now I can get to the source of the problem because that's on me.

That's not on them.

That's on me,

Right?

And in looking for,

You know,

If I want to try and help this person out,

I can't do it from the standpoint of I need them to see me as a good person again.

I will never have good advice for them because it's all about me in that case.

Or if I'm asking for forgiveness,

We know we've talked about this,

Right?

Now I'm asking for forgiveness because it's coming from a place of tell me I'm a good person again.

I can't handle having this relationship like that.

I can't handle you thinking I'm a bad person.

I mean,

Plenty of people don't like the Dalai Lama.

I mean,

Most of us here would be,

Who wouldn't say,

Who wouldn't like the Dalai Lama?

You've got to be kidding me,

Right?

But there's many,

Well,

The Chinese,

Chinese government to start,

But many people that don't,

Don't like him,

You know?

And I often will use him as an example because I think we all look at him and think he's the nicest,

Sweetest,

You know,

Wonderful being.

And yet there are people that don't like him and it doesn't change who he is.

And we can't walk around needing the whole world to think we're a good person.

That won't,

It's just impossible.

Not everyone,

You know,

Our interactions with everyone aren't the same.

And some people,

For whatever reason,

You know,

We have,

You know,

The causes and conditions,

The interactions,

You know,

They're rising together and there's just this resistance that's there.

You know,

There's something that they're,

You know,

Something in them getting triggered,

Right?

And so it's like,

Okay,

There's something in them getting triggered.

I don't have to get triggered as well.

But if I have gotten triggered,

Then I can really be clear and look at what it is that's going on here.

Oh,

I don't like the fact that this person doesn't see me in a good light.

Okay,

Now I know what the problem is.

And then that's me.

That's for me to work on.

Now I can start working on it.

And that's where self-compassion is needed.

And that's where kindness to ourselves is needed.

You know,

Being present with what's here.

And each time it comes back up.

But,

But,

But,

But,

Okay,

Let's be with that again.

Feel.

Is it still the image?

Yes,

The image again.

I don't like that.

Okay,

That's the image.

Okay,

Great.

We know what it is.

Right.

I mean,

This is why in Buddhism,

Where we say,

You know,

The Buddha is our refuge,

The Dharma is our refuge,

And the Sangha is our refuge.

So the Sangha,

This is our Sangha here,

The Dharma,

The teachings,

They're our refuge,

The Buddha is our refuge.

So no matter what is ailing you,

What no matter what is ailing you,

He is the general practitioner of all mental afflictions.

That if you use the practices,

If you use mindfulness,

And you really come in,

And you're willing to be with what's here and to feel it and to,

To investigate what's here,

With compassion and kindness,

You will find the cure,

That it was never going to be found in your thoughts looking outside of you,

It was only ever going to be found here.

And then if,

When we get to that,

That recognition that,

Oh,

Yes,

My suffering was because I needed them to see me in a particular light.

Now,

You know,

Instead of just saying,

I need to fix that one relationship,

Now I'm getting to the source of probably where a lot of suffering is coming from,

Of needing people to see me in a particular light,

Maybe I just wasn't as aware of it.

Because it's a terrible thing to have to go through life like that.

You know,

Needing everyone to see you in a particular way,

There's so much you got to try and control for,

And you got to try and be something.

And it's the antithesis of what it is that we're doing here.

And yet we get very caught up on it,

Because on this path,

As you know,

More spiritual,

I'm more peaceful,

Why aren't they seeing me that way?

Right?

You know,

It's,

Um,

It's,

It's so funny how much,

You know,

We're like,

I'm so peaceful,

Don't they see this,

Right,

That we cling to it.

It's,

This isn't about the way others see us.

If it is,

Then it's very fragile.

Our peace is very fragile.

And that's not where we're not looking for fragile peace here.

We're not looking for peace dependent upon external conditions.

We're looking for unshakable peace.

And we know that the unshakable peace is found in no image of who we are.

No image,

Not a good image,

Not a bad image.

No image,

You'll never live up to whatever image you think it is.

And it sneaks in there.

And in relationships,

It definitely sneaks in there with relationships.

They can be such a mirror to what it is that we're clinging to what we're attaching to.

So it's just good to ask yourself that as well to look at that to investigate it.

And of course,

We also have the practices of loving kindness for the difficult person also helps peel the story away.

Tonglen,

So we have practices specific for it as well.

We've got a lot of practices,

But we've got to use them.

They don't work sitting on the shelf,

You got to use them.

Okay,

So I hope that makes sense.

I hope that's helpful.

And just Kimmy,

For your point here,

Where you're saying letting go is the difficulty,

Holding on is the difficulty.

Holding on is the difficulty.

It just takes one mindful breath.

And we start to let go a little bit.

It's the holding on.

And it's the the holding on where we go,

I need to let go,

I need to let go of this.

And we're like,

This is so difficult.

Because we're thinking I should just be able to just put this down like a robot.

You've got to come in and feel it.

I've just not found any way around that,

That you got to come in and feel it.

And the moment your attention comes into what it is that's here,

And acknowledging it doesn't matter what it is.

It doesn't matter what it is.

Shame,

Guilt,

Jealousy,

Unworthiness,

It doesn't matter what it is,

What it is that we're clinging to the moment you acknowledge it,

You're willing to breathe and feel it and,

And have kindness and compassion to that feeling and saying it's okay that you're here.

Unworthiness,

Shame,

It's okay that you're here.

Yeah,

It's okay,

Sweetheart,

It's okay.

Let me give you some space.

The letting go happens.

The letting go happens.

You change your relationship to what's here,

You tend to the needs of what's here,

You give your attention,

Which is your love to what it is that's here.

And you find yeah,

Yeah,

It's okay,

I can be with this.

The letting go happens on its own.

But I do think we look at it as though,

Oh,

I'm lost in these thoughts,

Just let it go.

Let it go.

You know,

Let it go.

And we're like,

And it's like a piece of gum stuck on our hand.

Like,

I can't get it off.

Right?

And we keep trying and we're going against all the surfaces.

And we're trying to get it get off.

Right?

Because we're because we're just thinking I can just let it go.

Instead of saying no,

I've got to come in and feel this.

I got to be here with it.

And in being with what's here.

All of a sudden you look at your hand and you're like,

Where's the gum now?

It's gone.

The stickiness,

Whatever it was the sticky thought it's gone now.

Yeah,

The letting go took place on its own.

Yeah,

And if it's if it's hard,

Kimmy,

Putting a name to the hurt from the loved ones,

In the beginning,

I'm glad you mentioned that.

Thank you.

In that first instance that you're just you know,

You're holding on,

You know,

You're clinging,

You know,

You're suffering.

You can just say,

There's suffering here.

I know there's suffering here.

There's resistance here.

There's anger,

Just even just suffering.

Okay,

Let me breathe,

Feel you suffering.

It's okay.

You're here suffering.

Right?

Just in that we're acknowledging what's here.

We're moving closer to what it is that's here.

We're giving space.

We're breathing more mindfully,

Just the breath breathing more deeply.

Right?

That we start to engage the vagus nerve.

So we start to feel a little safer.

Right?

The the nervous system starts to become more relaxed.

So just in that we start to dial it down a little bit.

And then we just keep peeling back.

Okay,

I'm suffering.

What else is what's behind you suffering?

What is this?

What is it that's going on?

Because where I was talking about,

Oh,

The image of me being need to see in a particular way,

That's probably not going to be the top level what you're going to find.

There's going to be anger,

There's going to be resentment,

There's going to be judgment,

There's going to be a whole load of things before you get to that.

So you might find that you might find as you're like suffering,

What else is here?

What else is here?

Right?

You're open,

You're dialing things,

Things,

The intensity back by being with what's here.

And as you then say,

Okay,

Suffering,

What else is here?

What else is behind you?

Right?

And it's like you're kind of picking back these layers.

Oh,

Anger,

Anger.

Great.

Okay,

Anger.

Let me make some room for you to you're here.

Okay.

Yeah,

Anger.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I wasn't I wasn't seeing you and you're here and it's okay.

And you breathe and I really talk to it this way.

Talk to it.

Open to it.

Welcome it.

It's here anyway.

And then after a little bit of that,

And just 30 seconds,

45 seconds.

Anger,

What's behind you?

What else is in there?

Right?

And it's like,

Oh,

There's hurt.

Oh,

Hurt.

You're here too.

Oh,

Sweetheart.

Sweetheart.

Let me make some room for you.

Oh,

Sweetheart.

Yeah,

You can be here too.

Let me feel you.

Let me give you some space behind the hurt.

What else is here?

There's some guilt,

Maybe for the way that we act.

Oh guilt.

You're here too.

Oh,

Sweetheart.

Come here.

Right?

And so as we keep peeling back,

But it is just that starting place,

Right?

Just suffering.

There's something here.

As we start being with it,

It's just this gradual peeling back,

Peeling back,

Peeling back.

And there is just this sense of yeah.

There was a lot packed in there.

I didn't realize how much was packed in there.

And as you're with every stage of it all the way,

Now you're tending to the problem.

We think the problem's out there.

We wouldn't have gotten triggered reacting if there wasn't something here to be triggered.

So they touched something in us that got triggered,

That came out in suffering and anger and in stress and frustration and resentment and in all these different ways.

So again,

The problem is coming from here.

Right?

But we're never,

I love this line too from A Course in Miracles,

We are never upset for the reason we think.

And that's the problem when we get stuck in that loop.

We're kind of,

We're focusing on it from the wrong angle as well.

We're trying to solve the solution,

The problem,

We're coming up with the solution from the wrong angle.

Because you know,

We think we're upset because what they're doing over there or what they did over this,

You know,

What they said to me.

But there's something deep and buried down there inside of us that they triggered.

And often once we start peeling back the layers and we're with it,

Then we find like,

Oh,

That's actually the reason I'm upset.

Oh man,

I thought it was something else.

Right?

And we're able to unpack it and get to it.

So they showed us,

They showed us.

Yeah,

There was something here that needed some work that we hadn't had the opportunity yet to work on.

You know,

There's a lot of unresolved hurts in us.

And they need our attention.

And just because we started on a spiritual path,

Or we've been on a spiritual path for 20 years,

It doesn't mean they all go away.

Right?

It's just that we start tending to them,

We start dealing with them.

We start getting to the root of the problem,

But it's always coming from in here.

Okay,

So I'm so glad Sarsi,

So glad.

As we would,

Yes,

Sarsi.

As we would to our children,

I often say that when we're talking like with self-compassion,

That's how you would talk to your child.

Your child wouldn't come to and say,

I'm so hurt.

I'm so upset.

And you'd say,

Well,

Just go away.

Go away.

I'll deal with you later.

You would say,

Oh,

Sweetheart,

Come here.

Come here,

My sweetheart.

Oh,

I'm so sorry.

Let me be with you.

Yeah,

Yeah,

It's okay.

It's okay to feel this.

We would tell the child,

It's okay.

And I'll be right here with you.

I'll be right here with you.

Yeah.

Wow,

Mark,

You met Ram Dass in 74.

Wow,

51 years later.

Wow,

I love Ram Dass.

Love him.

And man,

Wasn't he a teacher right up until the end?

Oh,

That's interesting.

So maybe Kimmy,

I didn't know that there's this wheel of emotions,

80 plus emotions.

Yeah,

You know,

Print that off and see if that helps as well as it identifying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Helpful.

Thank you so much,

Alice.

Okay,

I think,

Oh,

And Sue,

You're very welcome.

You're very welcome.

I think we've gotten to everyone's questions here.

So I think we will go ahead and bring us to an end.

So as I said,

Last week to next Sunday,

We're not going to have a class.

I am going back to Ohio on Tuesday for my mother's wake.

And I'm going to be back there for about 10 days.

So we will have class the following Sunday.

I'm coming back to Mexico.

So we will have class the following Sunday.

But we have a lot to work with to keep looking for that decision maker,

Looking for the one that's claiming the decision being made.

You know,

The doer,

The thinker,

Right,

And all the little ways of that sense of me to keep coming back and really questioning it.

We just,

That sense of me is there.

And so there are decisions.

And we so want to defend it in decisions.

We feel so justified in our need to defend that I made the decision.

It is an interesting place that we defend the ego,

Right?

The other places we won't,

We're not usually willing to defend it.

We're pretty like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Okay,

I see it.

But in this,

We are really defending it.

And so look for it.

Look for it.

Look for that sense of me.

And what you'll find in that sense of me,

You know,

As you keep looking for it and seeing it's not there,

Just like Michelle and Alice and Sue and all you were saying,

You felt a greater sense of flow in life.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

If you're flowing more peacefully,

More harmoniously.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

Because we're not flowing when we're,

While we're,

While we're clinging.

You can't flow and cling at the same time.

It's one or the other.

So it's a good indication if you're feeling that sense of flow,

That sense of openness.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

When you're feeling the constriction,

Don't be upset.

Just,

Oh,

What's going on?

What's going on here?

Investigate it.

Investigate it.

Take a look.

So you could be free.

Yeah.

And flow meaning true acceptance,

True acceptance to this one.

Yes,

Michelle.

Like that is again,

What seeing all of this,

Because you see like,

I didn't do any of this.

I didn't create this.

I didn't create my likes.

I didn't create my dislikes.

I didn't do any of this.

And so all of that resistance that we have to who we are falls away.

I'm simply the rising of trillions of different causes and conditions.

So we can finally accept who we are.

And man,

We carry that burden around a lot.

So yes,

I mean,

That's what I have found.

It really just,

Yeah,

You can accept who you are.

Okay.

So,

So thank you all.

Julie,

Thank you so much for the donation.

I so appreciate it.

Oh,

Yes.

Julie from Lisperilla.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

And Mark,

Thank you so much.

And just to all of you for all of your,

And Dini,

And Alice,

And Sorce,

And Tracy,

And Sue,

Both Sues,

Canada Sue,

And Sue,

Where are you?

Oh,

From the Netherlands.

Oh,

A place I would love to go to at some point.

And Bolivar.

So thank you all so,

So,

So,

So much for all of the wonderful comments,

The questions,

The hearts.

I love the hearts.

Thank you.

Thank you for all the donations.

I appreciate it.

Oh,

Thank you,

Chris.

Thank you.

And Heather.

Oh,

I didn't know you were here.

Thank you.

So,

So we'll meet back in two weeks.

I will put this,

Both of these sessions up on Insight Timer.

And I do have the last few sanghas are,

I have them uploaded on Insight Timer.

I'm just waiting for the approval.

Oh,

And Sherry,

Thank you.

Thank you,

Tracy.

Thank you,

Michelle.

And thank you again,

Sue.

Thank you,

Janine.

I'm so glad you were able to come back for the second session.

That was a good muddling of your schedule.

So we had you back for both sessions.

So I hope this kind of worked a little bit for those in Australia.

Just thinking I would just do it a little bit later in the day.

And,

And,

You know,

That we could kind of just so I don't have to do two,

Because I know it's a little difficult for those of you in Australia and Libby,

My sister in Australia,

We've got to make sure that we have it for the Aussies,

But we've got the right time for them too.

So,

So thank you.

Thank you all so,

So much.

And Libby and Alice,

You were to remind me next time on the audio.

So I'm so sorry about that.

But now we know the problem there.

And Paul,

Thank you as well.

And I think I got everyone on there.

Okay.

You're a great second mate.

Okay,

Thanks,

You guys.

So lots of love,

Lots of gratitude to all of you.

And let's just keep this flowing going the rest of the day,

Into the week,

Into the months,

Into the years.

Just be mindful,

Notice when the constriction,

No problem.

You know what to do.

And as it dissipates,

You're flowing again.

You're flowing,

You are,

We are all just happening.

We are just happening.

Okay.

Thanks,

You guys.

Reviews

It’s so wonderful to go back to listen to these lives again. When I listen to it this time I’m in a different place (Causes and conditions) and I hear things differently. Love it! 🦋🩵🦋🩵🦋🩵🦋🩵🦋🩵🦋🩵