S2E16 Midlife Self Care and Advocacy With Nikki Parkinson

Nikki Parkinson, 56, is a former journalist-turned blogger, author and now fashion designer. At the core of all that she does is her love of helping and supporting women to find greater confidence through their everyday style and the life they lead.

We delve into the topic of Perimenopause with the brilliant Nikki Parkinson. She shares her personal journey through this misunderstood stage of a woman's life, discussing the physical and mental health challenges she faced, and how she navigated through them.

Transcript

The years leading up to and during menopause are a rite of passage.

The wise woman inside of us is calling to slow down,

To take stock,

To speak our truth,

To burn away all that no longer serves us,

Ready for our next cycle of life.

The good news is with the support,

Community,

Connection,

And most of all,

Sharing our stories and being truly seen and heard,

We will travel through this powerful,

Sometimes painful heroine's journey and out the other side.

Welcome to the Menopause Podcast,

Real and raw stories of midlife and mental health.

I'm your host,

Kylie Patchett,

Menopause self-care coach and storyteller,

And I am so glad you found us.

Let's get on with the show.

Hello,

Everybody.

Welcome to another edition of the podcast today.

I am excited to introduce you to Nikki Parkinson Hubbard,

Who is one of my very old Sunshine Coast connections.

How are you?

I'm so happy to be here,

Kylie.

When I say very old,

I don't mean you're very old or I'm very old.

I mean,

We've known each other for years.

I do feel very old sometimes,

Particularly.

You were one of my first clients at the start of my business journey,

So I've been through your wardrobe.

You have,

Literally.

I was thinking this morning,

Your first iteration of Styling You,

The business that we'll talk about in the podcast,

It was going into people's wardrobes and figuring out what the heck was going on in there and figuring out the key pieces that you needed to bring everything together into some sort of cohesive look and feel that was you.

You went through my wardrobe and I was thinking I was at Mooroochoo River,

So it would have been 2011.

It's a long time.

Long time ago.

Wow.

Congratulations on 15 years in business too.

Thank you.

So let's dive in.

So I invited you on the show,

Not just because we are connected from ages ago,

But because I heard you sharing and I have been on your social media and seeing you sharing through your perimenopause journey.

Some of the,

What I would like to say,

Cluster,

You know,

Watery,

That is perimenopause at times and particularly around mental health.

So now that you are,

I'm assuming postmenopausal,

I'm making a big assumption.

Yes.

When you look back,

How would you describe what you went through?

A shit show.

Good.

I was going to say clusterfuckery and I thought,

Don't put words into your mouth,

Carly.

Let's just go.

Particularly,

You never know when your last period is going to be.

Yes.

Because you're not officially postmenopausal until 12 months after that last period.

Correct.

So definitely in the years leading up to,

Unless you have a marina or some other kind of device or contraception or hormones,

Then your periods are going to be very erratic and all over the place.

And either every two weeks or you'll go five months and you'll go,

Okay,

Maybe I'm on the way.

Maybe I'm on the way.

And then the next minute,

Those boobs are so sore and you go,

Oh my God,

Am I pregnant or no?

No,

No,

No.

It's just coming back to tease you.

So I've probably,

In hindsight,

About 10 years of perimenopause and I would say,

But the worst in terms of my experience and all of the symptoms kind of coming in together with probably the last couple of years and particularly that last year.

And I likened it the other day to when,

If you have a birth where you go through all the stages of birth,

It's like that last year for me was like the transition period of giving birth where it's so intense.

You don't know who you are.

You don't know what words are coming out of your mouth.

If I stood up during a period,

It was just all gush out of me.

Just a whole lot altogether.

And this is 2020 where we all had levels of anxiety,

Situational anxiety.

And I just honestly put it down to all of that.

And I now know more about what was going on with the hormones that would have actually exacerbated those feelings at the same time.

And even just recently,

I have learnt about what is called perimenopausal depression.

And it's very different than regular depression,

Garden variety,

In that the treatment is hormones and not antidepressants.

But a lot of women,

I wasn't on antidepressants,

But a lot of women end up on antidepressants in that perimenopausal year where it should be getting treated with hormones.

So there's a great thing that's happening now.

And why I speak up is that the worldwide,

I would say the UK is the leader worldwide.

There is more education.

There's more talking about it.

There's more health professionals doing more research.

And women will be able to ask the questions.

They will have the tools to ask the question and get help because there are still women who will sail through this period like it happens to everybody,

Sail through this period beautifully with barely a blimp,

Like anything in life.

But so many of us,

Because women,

We've been taught to just put up and get on with it,

Soldier on,

Shut up and everything,

That we just think,

Okay,

Well,

This is just me.

And I am in a position at the moment where I've got friends who are like five,

Six years younger,

So they're in the thick of that thing.

And one of them just said,

I've been putting off going to get a new bra fitting,

But I just can't do it anymore.

Everything's,

She's gone to a G cup.

I think she was a C or a D,

Like just stuff like that.

It might seem serious to someone else,

But like that's your body just like taking over and you haven't done anything.

It's just like,

I don't know.

Those G cup bras are not cheap,

I can tell you.

Oh,

My goodness.

Having been,

I think I was a,

I grew to a K cup during my second pregnancy.

So my girls are 12 months apart.

So I went from a C to a G-ish,

Then I went to a K and then I had surgery because I was like this,

Me and these enormous gazookas do not go together.

I cannot cope with this.

I don't like how I feel not in my body,

Et cetera.

But like you're saying,

I was just talking to someone yesterday and she's like,

Oh,

You know,

She's 47.

I met her through something completely outside of work,

So I didn't know what I do or what I talk about all the time.

And she's like,

You know,

I'm feeling so isolated.

I just want to cut myself off from everyone.

And I'm feeling this,

I'm feeling that.

And I'm like,

Have you ever heard of perimenopause?

Because every single thing that you've just said to me in the first five minutes that we've met is like you could tick every single box.

And I think that that's the problem,

Isn't it?

That there's so many like chronic stress and perimenopause symptoms are so similar.

And also,

If you're a person that's having difficulty sleeping as well,

It's like this awful cycle.

I love what you said,

Though.

I've never actually heard someone say that about transition in birth.

I didn't actually end up having natural births either time.

Both were emergencies.

But it is kind of like that quickening and intensity that I hear is before the other side,

Before the other side.

And it's like rebirthing ourselves on the other side of this versus,

Yeah,

What?

Holy dolly,

I have felt the intensity is growing,

But I'm also getting those little nudges of like,

Oh,

I can I can almost sense this sense of like peace and clarity on the other side.

I might actually just be fooling myself.

It might be five years away from me.

But,

You know,

That sense.

But then again,

Isn't that great that you can feel that because that's going to help you through as well.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

Whether a woman chooses to look at hormone.

Treatment's not the right word,

You're just replacing hormones like it's just you're replacing hormones.

I would have done things differently and I would have sought treatment in my perimenopause years,

Particularly around very,

Very,

Very heavy periods and impossible to keep iron levels.

Just a whole lot of stuff that I could have worked with in the time and that would have just plucked one kind of stem off to the side.

And now I just say to people,

If you're not feeling well.

And you want to do something about it,

Just find someone who will listen.

And because it is,

You know,

You can choose to replace hormones,

But there's a lot of lifestyle factors,

There's a lot of things that that you can help your body with.

Yeah.

But when you're in the thick of it and you and your lack of progesterone is stopping you from being able to get a quality sleep.

Yep.

And then that just piles on.

Yeah.

And then you have all of your,

Your,

Your regular stresses.

And,

You know,

Women in those mid to late forties generally still have kids at school.

They also might be going through their own hormonal changes.

Yep.

There's a lot going on.

And I feel like we've lifted the curtain a bit to allow women to voice that they're not OK and and to and to ask questions of their health professionals and get support.

Whereas I was guilty of just like getting up and getting on with it.

Yeah.

That does no one any good.

No,

Exactly.

And it's almost well,

When I look back on my own journey,

I ended up with really,

Really,

Really bad depression.

And it was a combination of like,

I look at last year when I turned 47,

The things that collided was me being in a corporate role that was ill-fitting and high stress.

I had 16 and 17 year old daughters and particularly the 16 year old,

She and I are the same.

So clashing heads,

Clashing heads,

Clashing heads,

Clashing heads,

A parent going into care for dementia.

And all these things collided.

Oh,

And I also was diagnosed with ADHD.

So there's that identity shift and then figuring out medication,

If that's what you want to do and all of those things.

And they all collided.

And I ended up,

I went to a friend's place in Sydney around about September,

I think,

Last year.

And I was just like,

I can't do this anymore.

Like I had one of those moments and I was like,

OK,

I'm going to make some changes.

And so I did,

You know,

Lifestyle stuff.

But I didn't realise at the time that I was actually so depressed that I couldn't even see what I could do to help myself.

And adding in HRT,

Like if I had known how good it was going to be for me personally.

And again,

Like you're saying,

Sometimes people don't choose you,

That's totally fine.

For me,

It's just allowed me to lift above this awful depression and lack of sleep so that I can actually treat myself better.

So,

Yeah.

So you can,

So the lifestyle things actually have an impact.

Exactly.

And you're doing them because you've got the kind of energy and wherewithal and have had a night's sleep to be able to do that,

Because what I was doing was just not sleeping.

So then my confidence was going,

My,

You know,

Idea of how I even fit into the world was like non-existent,

I think,

Really.

Yeah.

And I always say it's like a three-legged stool,

Like my mental health,

Sleep and sort of sense of self,

You know,

It's like if one topples,

The other two are sort of,

And perimenopause created issues with every single one of those.

So that was the,

Yeah.

When you did have all of the,

You know,

The 2020 stresses,

Obviously,

With COVID and everything,

Especially with business,

Because you're a business owner,

It's affecting business.

What,

What did you do?

Did you end up deciding that you were going to get,

In terms of mental health,

What did you choose to do to actually help yourself with those,

That end of things?

So I think there's a lot of people that,

We talk about the physical stuff a lot,

But I feel like the mental health thing in menopause is still.

It still probably has a stigma to it.

And that's probably the generation.

I don't think the next generation coming through are going to have this at all.

And I would say it is the most serious symptom of perimenopause.

Like there are some women and it's not competition,

But it sounds like you're worse than I,

The position I was in.

But I've even heard very,

Very,

Very bad.

Yeah.

Horrible,

Horrible,

Because like you said,

They couldn't even see the situation they were in to then seek the help.

Yeah.

So that this,

I think,

Is our most important thing going forward in recognising,

And I was speaking at a menopausal retreat in June up in Hamilton Island,

And don't sweat it,

Menopause.

Yeah,

Go talk to Ginny and Shelley.

Yeah.

So we came away from that.

We were all appointed menopause mentors,

Because while we're not medical professionals,

We have some knowledge and we have the words that we can give to people to go and ask for help,

Because often it's not having the words to ask.

And that is one of the biggest messages.

And the stories in that room was just a subset of the wider community.

And I am hopeful that we'll have a change because it was definitely clear that the mental health aspect of perimenopause is crucial,

Because you're talking about if you're a woman in your 40s,

You're at the prime of your career,

Whatever that is,

Whether it's your own business,

Whether you are in a corporate job,

And suddenly you could be sitting in a meeting and forget what you were going to answer that question with.

And let alone that feeling of you aren't capable of doing your job anymore because the perimenopausal depression might have taken over.

So for me,

When you're in your own business,

You really don't give a choice,

But keep going on.

But I started seeing a psychologist for the first time.

And so that was three years ago.

I started unpacking a lifetime of bullshit.

So it was something that worked for me,

But I was definitely open to exploring other things.

I didn't know that I could treat with hormones at that time.

And the psychology helped.

Also,

By that point,

I didn't know,

And you're not officially menopausal,

But I had my last period.

So the worst part was actually the really pointy end,

Literally about three years to the day from now that I had my last period.

And it was really tough.

And I don't know if I've had access to sick leave or holiday pay or anything,

Whether I would have dealt with it differently in terms of being able to rest.

I guess we were living in a different world where the world was closer and that might have been helpful because there wasn't as much on and that we weren't doing as much.

And so I was able to kind of work through it with psychology,

The lifestyle stuff,

Making sure I was moving,

Doing yoga,

Just stuff that we all know is good for us.

Yeah,

But we may not put it into practice until the wheels fall off.

But I'm just trying to think what I did for about my sleep.

I feel like I was on some kind of melatonin and I'm not sure whether it actually was working,

But that was the cycle I was in,

That 2.

30am wake up and the anxiety and the heart palpitations of the race,

Everything that was going on.

Catastrophizing.

You can really forget how the day.

Oh,

It's awful.

But again,

I didn't,

Sorry,

I didn't realise how awful it was until I wasn't in it.

It was like so bad,

But so subtly shifting for me until it was like every night at 2.

30am and then the heart racing and the catastrophizing.

And I was awful just going down roads of like,

What if this happens and what if and I'm like,

I have never had anxiety before in my entire life.

If I'm out of work,

I definitely tend towards that sort of more flat mood.

And I was just like,

Who is this person in my head?

What is going on?

It's crazy.

And meanwhile,

You go into the next daylight hours.

Correct.

Sleep deprived.

So it is a vicious circle and not fun at all.

So I went into 2021 and I don't think I actually saw my GP till later that year.

And I said,

Oh,

Can we just test?

And it had gone past the August dateline.

Can we just test where we're at?

And he's someone I see for my thyroid.

So everything just all works together.

Yeah.

And and yes,

They came back.

They had flatlight.

Everything was flatlined.

So was I feeling great with flatline?

No,

Because the reason why we have hormones in our body is like it's just not,

I was not feeling I was not feeling great.

The sleep was still not great.

There was a whole lot of things.

But in my head,

I was just buying into this whole,

Oh,

I don't really have hot flushes.

Well,

I have night sweats occasionally,

But I don't have.

But that's everybody.

Dr.

Ginny actually said,

You know,

We get hung up on these hot flushes.

That is the least worrisome symptom,

Because literally,

If you don't take hormones and your hormones flatline upwards,

Your flushes will eventually stop.

It's all the other stuff that can affect you.

That is a much greater concern.

So I was kind of going,

Oh,

Yeah,

OK.

And he said and he said,

Well,

Why don't we just give them a try?

And then if after a couple of months you just go,

Haven't felt really different,

We come off it.

And I went,

OK,

Let's do that.

So I gave it a go and I'd broken my wrist.

So my husband got a lot of medication and the pharmacist assistant said,

Well,

She's going to sleep well tonight.

And seriously,

From that first night,

And I think that was the greatest gift was this sleep.

But I would say that the estrogen that was the progesterone part,

I'd say the estrogen part definitely with skin,

With brain fog,

Things like that.

I feel like if you can get the sleep,

Then that helps with things.

And the other interesting thing I've learned since the retreat is that you can get your estrogen through different patches or however it is going to be.

And but we if you want to save your vagina,

You need to be doing vaginal estrogen because none of that other stuff is going to save your vagina.

And once once it's retreated into a dry cell,

There is no coming back.

There's no like just slaps of moisturizer on a lubricant.

No.

And you should have seen the collective drop of jaw around the room when this was announced to everybody.

We've gone.

So there was women in the room who would,

You know,

On to a second marriage or partner and they would go and see Dr.

This was an example.

And she'd go,

Well,

I'm really sorry.

But once it's dried up.

Yep.

She said that in our interview as well,

Because she that was actually one of the biggest.

Like we covered lots of ground.

One of the big things she's like is,

And ladies,

Get on to the vaginal estrogen,

Because once it's dried up,

You ain't no coming back.

It's like,

Oh,

Because I like all in shock.

We were like,

Oh,

In shock.

And like and and even if you had estrogen receptive breast cancer,

You can't but you can have this because it's such a low dose,

But it's targeted.

And what I also didn't realize in this targeting is that.

It will help prevent UTIs as well,

Because it's all it's everything it's getting estrogen where it's needed.

So it's just it's a whole lot of stuff.

And it's been fascinating.

And I listen to Dr.

Louise Newsome in the UK.

I'm not sure if you've heard of her.

I reckon she's the leader of the world in this.

And she is incredible and just so calming to listen to her voice.

And I download I bought her last book via Audible and download it and listen to it.

And just the up-to-date research and the up-to-date anecdotal clinical evidence that she sees daily in her clinic isn't is incredible.

So I feel like.

A lot of women,

If we'll we'll have we'll be able to.

Access more because there's more information,

And if if you are struggling,

Then hopefully there'll be more people around you to recognize and kind of lead you in the right way,

Even if you can't see it yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Because I think that's that was the big missing piece for me is that I always say like it's hilarious,

Like I'm a biologist.

Originally,

Originally,

I didn't even know perimenopause was a thing until literally last January when it blindsided me.

And since then,

I'm like,

Why are we not having these conversations?

Because without even knowing what this all of these things could be,

I can't advocate for myself.

I'm not educated about my options for treatment or lifestyle factors.

I'm not empowered to ask questions if my doctor is not well-educated and I want to not challenge something that well,

No,

Let's be honest,

I did challenge multiple things.

But,

You know,

Forewarned,

Forearmed,

That type of thing.

And that's why I think it's so good that we're having these conversations.

Can I circle back to something that you just said about when you saw a psychologist said start unpacking a lifetime of bullshit.

Yeah.

So I have a theory about this and I'll be interested to see if this has been your experience as well.

So I had a fair bit of childhood trauma,

Have been very good at keeping that under the surface for many,

Many years with many coping mechanisms,

Including addiction to busyness,

Perfectionism,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And then you hit peri-menopause and your lack of sleep and all of the other clusterfuckery creates an inability to keep it under the surface.

And then all that shit comes up.

Was that your experience as well?

Yeah,

Definitely.

And also that you get to that point where you're giving less f's about everything.

The filters weaned off.

And I think you also do a bit more self-reflection.

Yes.

And I'm going like,

I knew there were things in my life that had created patterns,

Beliefs,

A whole bunch of stuff.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

Once I started talking to a professional about it,

You know,

There's always something new to unpack.

Oh,

I'll go to a session and I'll go,

Oh,

I don't really got anything at the moment.

That's not been the case this year,

But I haven't really got anything at the moment.

And next minute we've uncovered something else.

Pass me the Kleenex,

Please.

Yeah,

That's good.

And there's two things that are barriers to it.

You can't be so deep into the depression and anxiety that you can't find that person.

Yes.

Because you've got to go through the steps,

Whether it's going to your GP and getting a mental health plan.

The first psychologist I got referred to was awful and basically said I didn't have anything to be worried about and sent me on my way after paying $210.

Yeah.

And it just made me feel worse.

And I ended up going to someone who was a referral.

And I would just say,

Ask friends for recommendations.

They're not necessarily going to be a match,

But it's a better starting point than a referral from a GP.

And I told my GP,

I said,

Please don't send anyone to this person again,

Because I shouldn't walk out of a session like that,

Not having my feelings validated for one,

But actually feeling worse than when I went in.

Yeah.

So,

Yeah.

So if you're not in the headspace to be like a dog with a bone with it,

And I think I was just so determined to find solutions to get to feel better,

To be better in this world.

Yeah.

But I still had the wherewithal to be able to do that.

And there were periods of my life earlier in my life where I didn't have that capacity and no one was there to help me.

So I feel like if you're feeling like,

Oh,

God,

That's going to be a lot of hard work,

How am I going to do this?

Enlist the trust of someone who,

It might be a partner,

But it might be a friend,

It might be a relative who can help you,

Even if it's ringing up and making the appointments,

If it's doing the asking around,

Who's going to be good.

But if you can just recognize that I'm in the way of this at the moment because I'm just not feeling well enough to do it.

And it's not easy.

And it's also,

Even with the Medicare subsidy,

It's not cheap.

So there's quite a few barriers to that.

Yeah,

I would agree.

Yeah,

There's a long way to go there,

Too.

Yeah.

I had the same experience all through my life.

Like I've known there's significant things that I need to look at with support.

But at multiple juncture points,

I've gone,

Seen a psychologist being referred to someone and at no time have found that right fit.

Once I walked in and the person that I ended up seeing was like a fresh graduate gentleman and I was there to talk about juggling full-time caring responsibilities,

Having two young kids and my own business.

And I was like,

What are you possibly going to be able to offer me?

You can know every single theory in the book and be the most beautiful textbook learner.

But I'm sorry,

I'm like twice your age and you have no,

Like there's nothing,

You know,

No.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And so I kind of had a story that was,

I'm not,

I'm not cut out for psychology until I was patently obvious that I needed some bloody help.

And I actually just got a referral from a friend,

Amazing lady,

Similar sort of age,

You know,

And clicked straight away.

And I would,

Yeah,

I would agree with you that that fit is so important.

And I think particularly when at a time when you're feeling very vulnerable and not yourself,

Like the fit,

It has to do help,

Not harm.

And sometimes it is harmful if it's not the right fit,

Because you do walk away feeling like,

Oh,

There's,

Well,

I should just be able to suck it up and get on with it or whatever the story is,

Which is not helpful at all.

And when you think now back through,

When you say you had like a 10 year experience.

I think that's part of the problem,

Isn't it,

Is that all these things are happening,

But we're not actually kind of putting it down to potentially this hormonal rollercoaster change.

I think I think I think next generation is coming forward if they're in their 40s.

I think that there's going to be increasingly more information and they'll go,

Hey,

I did hear something about that.

Yeah.

And at the menopause retreat,

There were there was a woman who went through early menopause in the 30s.

So I think that's also what's going to be great is that women can go,

Oh,

Hang on,

I am only 38,

But maybe this is happening.

And also,

If you don't get the answers first time around and find someone else like just and that again,

Takes a bit of a dog with bone attitude to it.

But what I've learnt previously before peri and menopause is that with my thyroid condition that I've had since 30,

Since I was 30,

Diagnosed at 30,

Is that no one else is going to advocate for your health,

But you.

So somehow you need to be able to do that or you need to enlist people to help you help help you.

And that that can take that's a whole range of things.

That's that's how we want to be,

Whether it's whether it's through the health system,

Whether it is lifestyle,

Whether it's incorporating a little bit of woowoo into the whole picture of it,

Then.

I don't know,

I think that set me up like I've lived with not 100 percent health my entire life and it's nothing that anyone sees because I just look like a normal person.

But,

You know,

I might have to take myself off the bed with the computer at some point,

You know,

Just to just to get through the day because I don't have sick leave and I run my own business.

And so I'm used to kind of just going,

OK,

This isn't the right thing for me.

Who can I seek out to help me with this?

And it's a hard thing because so many symptoms of peri could be put down to a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

But my bigger message is that you shouldn't put up with any niggling anything because it could be something even more serious than peri or menopause.

And as women going forward,

We need to not maintain this soldier on.

Don't think anything's happening.

Don't complain.

Yeah,

Not helpful.

We have to do that for the next generation going forward and then future generations,

Because men would not put up with half of this stuff.

They would be screaming,

Shouting,

There'd be protests in the streets.

But somehow we have just been told our entire lives because our mothers and the mothers before them were told you just go on with it.

Yeah,

Everyone goes through menopause.

Like,

Well,

Why do I have to feel this way?

And,

You know,

This is really bad stuff that's happening to me potentially.

So,

Yeah,

I don't know where I was rambling with that one,

But in a crux,

You have to advocate for yourself.

Yes.

And,

You know,

A niggle that doesn't go away is not a niggle.

Exactly.

Not a niggle,

No.

I'm reading a really interesting book called The Upgrade by,

And I can never remember this lady's last name.

Anyway,

It's called The Upgrade.

It's about the neurobiology,

Excuse me,

Of how our brains change.

And she talks a lot about how the brain is wired and particularly if you're a mom.

So as you're pregnant,

The brain very,

Very much puts energy towards forming networks for caretaking,

Protection of youngsters,

Et cetera.

And part of the neurobiology that happens as we hit really the beginnings of perimenopause,

As soon as the hormones start to change,

Because it's the ovarian to brain conversation,

That we actually start shifting to have less of those structures in the brain and more of the,

Like taking care of self better,

But also seeing the needs of the world.

So it's like we've gone from our little nest of people to like a community thing.

And it's interesting when she talks about the female brain,

How much our brains are wired to caretake.

And that,

By definition,

Means don't take care of self.

And so I think that there's two parts to that.

Behaviorally,

We haven't seen,

Or I haven't seen,

And most of the people I work with haven't seen,

A mother that takes care of herself or a grandmother who takes,

Like we've got no sort of reference points,

Which is luckily changing rapidly.

But I also think that there's a part of that,

That we are very much wired to be the ones that are,

You know,

Juggling the caretaking responsibilities.

I don't know where I was going with that.

I'm interested to hear when you,

Because you've got a daughter,

Beautiful Alex,

When you talk about,

Or what would you be saying to her about menopause?

What does she,

What she learnt through your journey that will hopefully give her a heads up?

I don't know how much they take in,

But I just talk about it because,

You know what it's like in your 20s,

People just go,

Oh,

That's a menopausal problem.

Yeah,

Exactly.

That's what I thought.

But,

But I feel like it's just my job to,

To talk,

To talk about it and any treatment I might be getting or any lifestyle changes I might be making and what's happened.

And even through perimenopause,

When I couldn't keep iron,

I couldn't store iron,

I've had infusions and,

And,

And that sort of thing.

And she's already having those kinds of problems now.

And I just nagged her and I said,

You know,

You need to do something serious.

And like,

You can't,

They're adults,

You can't drag them off.

Yeah,

Of course not.

Unfortunately.

Because I didn't have it at her age.

I didn't have the problem with very heavy periods or anything at her age.

And you just,

It's all of those things that I can,

Can share and just share what I do.

You can't make anybody look at things differently,

But I don't want that culture of,

Of just putting up with stuff to continue.

And I'm,

It's not about,

You know,

Being a hypochondriac or anything like that.

It's initially,

If there's something not right in the way your body is working,

Then seek answers and seek options.

And you're the one that knows your body the best.

So don't ignore your own inner knowing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Particularly if it's,

Yeah.

Just call it,

Or call it normal.

Yeah.

And I think that,

You know,

Periods were not talked about pretty much.

I don't know when I was growing up,

It was like,

Oh no,

The more we talk about them,

The more we normalise it.

It's just,

It's a female bodily function.

It's not a function.

And so somehow young women can ascertain whether their period is normal or it's not.

Yes.

That's an indication of hormonal imbalance as well.

So it's,

There's,

There's a lot there and I think it's just,

It's just talking about it.

Like there's no use advising on metaphors to her for two reasons,

Got no relevance to her life right now.

But also in 20,

25 years time when she's in the thick of it,

Who knows what will be available in terms of treatment,

In terms of education.

Yeah,

Definitely.

That sort of thing.

Yeah.

I want to shift our conversation to styling you the label,

Because I really wanted to include in our conversation women's relationship with their bodies as they change through menopause.

Because,

You know,

As we've just talked about,

I was one of your very early clients and I've watched you start,

How,

How old is the actual label?

I know 15 years in business.

The label is four and a half years old.

Four and a half.

Yeah.

I was going to say five.

Yeah.

So can you share with our audience,

If they don't know you already,

What is the label based on and also about the size ranges and everybody that you include in the label?

Well,

Hello there.

Interrupting this episode just briefly to share a bit of exciting news.

One of the things that has surprised me the most about this perimenopause journey is the fact that the former younger version of Kylie,

Who would always plan and goal set,

Has learned that life often has other ideas.

And that is exactly the same as what has happened in my business.

I thought when I returned to business back in October last year,

That I would go straight back into coaching,

Which is what I've always done in my own business.

And I did do a little bit of coaching,

But then life called me to study yoga specifically for menopause and start SUE,

The self-care immersion program that I have.

And something else that has naturally unfolded is for me to use my marketing and communication skills from 15 plus years in all sorts of different communication,

Storytelling and relationship building roles and offering that as a service to women in business.

So if you're listening to this podcast and you identify as a woman entrepreneur who is a healer or a helper and does work that is deeply transformative for the clients that you work with.

One of my favorite things is similar to this podcast,

Interviewing you,

Pulling out the golden threads that inform who you are and why you are so passionate about what you do in the world.

And weaving them into a beautiful set of magnetic content and copy that is attracting to your best fit clients.

So if you need the help of a copywriter or storyteller,

Reach out to me.

You'll find all the information on my website under storytelling or at the bottom of the show notes.

Now,

Back to the show.

So everything I was doing in my online platforms was to change up the way that fashion is marketed to women in general.

But,

You know,

I started it all when I was early 40s and then now I'm 56.

And age,

Age diversity is a thing too.

And mostly born out of my own personal frustration that you'd only ever see one body type wearing designs,

Whether it was back in the olden days,

Magazines or campaign image in a store.

And then when I did personal styling clients for the first two years of the business,

Two years,

Four years,

Four years.

Yeah,

Up to almost four years.

That was the biggest insight that I could have had because you were one of my clients,

But I saw women in every age,

Shape,

Background,

Budget,

Every single woman had issues with her body.

And the biggest eye-opener for me was taking a size four triathlete shopping and have to witness her not being okay with her body that does this amazing physical thing.

And I went,

Okay,

I get it now.

This is universal.

Generally,

You are never happy,

A hundred percent happy with every part of your body,

Which strangely made me happier with mine because you went,

Okay,

So the goal can never be,

Oh,

I just hundred percent love everything about my body because that's unrealistic.

Correct.

Yes.

We're chasing something that doesn't exist.

Number one,

We're chasing an ideal,

Very subjective.

Number two,

There's such a big genetic component.

Number three.

Well,

In the fashions of bodies,

Like at the moment,

The big booty is in style.

And I'm like,

Man,

If I was a teenager now,

I would be rocking it because that is my,

My ass is part of my shape.

But you know,

Body shape shouldn't be trends.

That's a bit bigger conversation.

Yes.

Um,

But I always loved clothes and I loved the power that they can have in making you feel confident and showing your personality to the world.

So through my online platforms,

Having worked with 150 different women,

I kind of had this idea that,

Okay,

So if you can't visualize that outfit that you see in a campaign image in the store on you,

How can I show it?

So it started very,

Um,

Basically with me showing garments on me as opposed to,

Um,

The model.

Yes.

Um,

And this was at a time when online shopping was only just beginning and definitely in the early days of online shopping,

There was only ever one body type.

I am so thankful that there are so many more brands shooting on at least even big brands shooting on it,

At least one other body type.

Um,

And then when it came to my own label,

I thought,

No,

What would be really good that we blow that up even more.

Um,

And so up until now we've photographed on every size that we stock,

Which is six to 20.

Yeah.

Um,

But more than the size it's showcasing different shapes.

So even if a brand shoots on a different model,

They're generally still tall and it's still,

Um,

The traditional hourglass shape.

So most people don't fall into that category.

No.

Um,

And so hard to visualize.

So we purposely have different heights of people so that you can see where,

Um,

A dress might fall on your,

On your height or similar to your height.

And obviously that is great for shopping with online confidence,

But it's also,

It's about that whole,

You can't be what you can't see.

So I want women coming to our site,

Customers to feel welcome.

I want them to feel welcome to be in our clothes.

You'd be amazed at the number of brands who literally are horrified that you're wearing their clothes.

Cause you don't fit their aesthetic and that is still going on.

It is very much a thing.

Um,

And it's just nuts.

I'm going,

How are you even making any money?

Like seriously,

But that's probably the least of,

Of my worries about it all.

But just women,

We have to get up,

Unfortunately we have to get dressed.

And,

And all of us have something that we've got to do that day,

Whether,

Whether you are caring for parents or kids or you're going to an office or you're working from home,

Your clothes can help you through that if they are you.

But if you can't see what you want to look like in clothes,

Then the brick wall,

Because,

Um,

You know,

I've been obsessed with fashion in my entire life,

But that's generally not everybody.

We want people to arrive at our website and on our social media and go,

Oh,

This is great.

You know,

I feel seen,

Um,

I can see myself in that.

I can see that she is a size 16 and she's this height and,

Oh my goodness,

That's very similar measurements to me.

I've got confidence to give that a try and,

Um,

Yeah,

Do that.

The other thing that we have done from the start is.

Cut for curves to explain that most fashion labels will do all their sampling and their pattern making on a size six or eight with no curves,

No boobs,

No bums,

No booty,

No hip,

No tummy.

Again,

Such a small percentage of the population has that particular body shape.

So what they do when they go up sizes,

It's going to just make it larger.

They don't make it larger.

Yeah.

I'm using my hands to make the shape of a woman to accommodate the boobs.

So that is what goes into every design that we release as well.

So where he,

And it's funny,

My psychologist has become a,

Um,

Customer and,

Um,

She's a woman in a seven,

She's turned 70 this year,

But she always dresses really lovely.

And she went,

What is really good about what you do?

We close the odd shape for odd shapes,

Normal shapes.

Oh,

I think I can include that in my marketing,

But I totally get what you're talking about.

Because what happens is if you don't fit that straight up and down or,

Um,

Pattern,

Then the fit of a lot of things is never going to feel right for you.

Particularly if there's no stretch in the garment,

The fit will not be right.

So I'm going to explain my own body and why it's an odd shape,

Not an odd shape.

It's just a shape,

But I was laughing at what she,

What she said,

Because it actually made so much sense.

What she said,

I don't have a super defined way.

It's like it goes in a tiny bit,

But my hips are bigger.

I wouldn't even call myself a pear shape because the bust and everything's quite well.

But what happens when you go to buy a pair of non-stretch jeans and non-stretch tailored pants is that I need the size for my,

Across my hip.

But then a straight size label without any stretch or elastic or anything,

Their waist measurement is so,

It's like an hourglass defined waist measurement.

So I can never get done up.

So if I buy to fit my waist,

Then I've lost all shape in the legs and around the hips.

So,

And the same in shirt,

You have a bust and,

And then you go and you have hips.

So what are you buying?

You're buying so it doesn't gape at the bust.

So are you just ending up with this boxy thing?

No,

We build the shape,

We build the shape into it without clinging.

And that's,

That's design.

And that is doing those cuts so that when women put them on,

They go,

Oh my goodness,

I haven't worn a button down shirt for forever because nothing has ever worked.

And it just doesn't fit properly.

I haven't,

One person said,

I have never been able to find a pair of work pants that aren't basically track pants.

So these are the things that I've worked on.

So it's the culmination of all of the years in business and working with different women's body shapes and types to,

And their pain points to understand what is it that we can do here?

So that we're not just offering more clothes into the universe.

We want women to not have to double think every time they get up every morning.

Especially that Monday to Friday where you just want to make it easy to get through the day.

A lot of stuff that goes into all of that.

And ultimately the best feedback we get is that we make their life easier.

Yep.

And also,

And we were just talking about this before we started recording from our personal shopping trip.

I've still got key pieces that we chose that day that are still in my wardrobe more than a decade later.

And what I love about what you do in styling you,

The label is the same sort of thing.

So they're key pieces that you build your wardrobe on.

I have got a really good story of an example of what you're saying.

I've got a group of friends.

We call ourselves the lumpy ladies because we have lumps in all,

That's an old name from forensic days.

Anyway,

There's four of us,

Five of us,

But four at this occasion.

And I had a pair of your Susie jogger pants that I've had since the very first time that you,

I think they're like four years in,

Are they or three?

That,

They were 2020,

21,

22,

Four that we've done four jobs for them.

Yep.

And one of the girls,

She's very into fashion,

Always has been,

And she was just talking about it.

She's like,

Oh,

I found this label and rah,

Rah,

Rah.

And I'm like,

I don't need you to say that when we were on your website.

And I'm like,

I think I've got the pants here.

So of the four of us,

I'm kind of medium height and was hour glassy,

But now with menopause,

I've got a belly as well.

Then there's another girl who's got like basically no bum and apple shape sort of thing,

Actually two apple shape.

And then one that is,

Um,

Quite tall and long limbed,

But has hips and has boobs.

And I got them out and because they've got elasticized waist and they're very,

They cut beautifully on a curve,

They fit every single one of us.

And so all of them got online.

But that's a perfect example.

We are quite different body shapes,

But because every woman,

Like most women are so different in shape from the next woman.

And I kind of,

I jump on threads every so often about getting some standardized sizing.

And I just want to scream,

There's not a standardized woman shape with men.

They are up and down and yes,

They might develop a bigger or something like that,

But they can still wear the same size pants.

They just wear it under their garments.

With women,

We've got so many more variables with our body,

Whether it's changed or whether how that we,

How we've always been.

The standardized sizing is just not a thing unless you're one particular body and,

And shape.

And that doesn't just,

That doesn't just uniformly go up the size from that shape.

And that's what I,

That I kind of go,

This is one of my bugbears.

No,

I'm just this size everywhere,

But no one would be,

No one would be,

Sorry,

A small percentage of the population would be.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Definitely.

I was thinking about when you were first in business compared to now with,

So four and a half years on,

How do you,

Do you look back now and go,

Oh my goodness,

I was not realizing how complicated this was,

Like,

What would you be saying to yourself?

I know we can't go back.

This is a ridiculous hypothetical question,

But I'm interested when you think about creating a label,

What would be the key things that you maybe didn't see?

COVID?

Yeah,

Well,

I'm huge careful.

We were only,

We were only in business a year before that,

So every step of this subset business of my business life has been tough.

And that hit me in the butt again this year,

Probably more than COVID in terms of the economic uncertainty.

And when you have a product-based business,

You are ordering in advance.

Yes.

So say for everything this year,

I ordered when I think there'd been one interest rate rise.

So really,

Maybe topic economists would have had no fear,

But you sort of,

You know,

You've got to go,

Well,

If I don't order any units,

Then I don't have a business.

Correct.

So if I overorder,

Then you're sitting on a lot of stock.

So hot tip,

Everybody.

The reason why every retailer is on massive sales is that everybody didn't predict.

We were on a thing,

Okay,

We're out of COVID,

It's going to go up.

Yeah,

Things will get better.

Yeah.

Things will get better.

Yeah.

So this has been a tough year,

And I'm very honest about to fellow business people because,

And it might not be the case in different businesses and definitely your travel service businesses and stuff are booming.

And rightly so,

They had a really,

Really tough time.

Yeah.

But anybody doing discretionary spend products or services,

Service is not so bad.

Yes,

Your cash flow is going to be down,

But you haven't got skin in the game in terms of buying products.

The cost of the product,

Yeah.

The cost of the product and the lead time,

The ordering that product and guessing what's going to be right.

It has been toughest.

And it has taken a toll on my mental health again.

And I'm grateful that all those things in 2020,

The psychologist,

All the toolkit stuff,

Just getting out and walking.

Yeah.

Putting on my yoga program,

Like all of that stuff to get through and thank goodness I'm on the hormones because I don't even know what would be happening without that.

But for me,

This has been the nearest to burnout in the whole time that I've been in business.

Yeah.

And I'm very conscious of it and I'm very protective of myself with that.

Yes.

And that's the other thing,

Men in business at the moment will say,

Oh,

It's just the economy.

I can't do anything about it.

We rationally know that,

But somehow we still internalize it and go,

Oh,

It must be me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

It's hard and unrealistic.

Our household budget has changed.

Yeah.

So,

You know,

I understand it.

I'm very grateful I have a loyal,

Beautiful customer base.

Yeah,

You do.

Who come back.

Yeah.

But they are spending less.

Yes.

I get it.

Yeah.

And hopefully over the next 12 to 18 months,

I can kind of get that right balance of enough product,

Not too much,

And remove that stress out of it about carrying.

Yeah.

Carrying it all.

Yeah.

Too much stock.

Oh,

That is a lot,

Isn't it?

One thing I wanted to bring together,

I think one of the things that when I wasn't able to come to your 15th celebrations just recently in business,

And I just,

I was looking at all of the,

Because I know,

Like a lot of the people in the photos we,

You know,

And it was just a beautiful example of,

And you talk about this a lot on your social media that,

You know,

Small businesses take a village to run a community to be behind them and to see those photos.

And also the other thing that stood out for me,

Because you've got these beautiful garments that have the glitter,

Like,

You know,

The glitter,

That's not the right word.

Sequins.

Sequins.

Thank you.

Not glitter.

You've got these beautiful pieces that are still stretched,

But you can wear them to these occasions.

And so many of the photos were your community in those garments in all different shapes and sizes.

And I was just like,

This is just like the perfect capture of what it does take to be behind a business.

So here's to many,

Many more years without any curveballs.

Let's put that out there.

Well,

I think that's always going to be curveballs.

Less high curveballs.

And you've got to have your toolkit.

You've got to know who you need to,

Who and what you need to access to help you through.

Yeah.

And it's just looking after and advocating for your own physical and mental health during that,

Whatever it is,

Whether it's a business or whether it's your workplace.

And I also remembering I'm 56.

I'm not a 20 year old trying to scale around the world.

Exactly.

It's okay.

It's okay to create limits and boundaries.

And if you are in business for yourself,

Create one that suits you and your lifestyle.

You're still going to have the curveballs.

But if it's true to who you are and you feel like you're doing more than just selling something,

Which is what I do,

I feel like I'm helping women to feel good at particularly 40 and over to feel good in themselves.

Then that's what keeps you going.

The rest of it,

You've just got to ride.

Part and parcel of it.

Yeah,

Part and parcel.

I feel like because I've been in business before and then went back to corporate and now in business again.

And I think my biggest invitation to myself is this concept of enoughness because the first time I definitely was in that scale and conquer and,

You know,

Grow and blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And what I did was create a completely unsustainable business for myself.

And this time I'm just like,

I just want to be able to marinate in the bits of my life that I really enjoy and have enough of the purposeful work that I enjoy with clients that I enjoy,

Enough income and not too much responsibility.

So I've been saying no a lot more.

And I think that that's potentially part of the perimenopause gift is that when you don't have as much bandwidth,

You have to be more discerning,

Which is a good thing.

Yeah.

And I feel like we also have to give permission to women to be okay with creating that sustainable business model that fits their lifestyle.

Like that's not for everybody.

And there are definitely women out there who enjoy the build and the scale and the selling.

But I feel like for the last 20 years,

The whole girl boss figure has been sold to everybody when we're not all the same.

So it's okay to scale down.

Yeah.

It's okay to have a life.

Yes.

And it's okay to put your health first.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Yep.

Absolutely.

And that's why I quite often will have people,

You know,

Moving appointments or whatever.

And I'm always,

As long as there's notice,

Obviously,

But always,

Yes,

If your plate's too full,

Like I'm a big,

That was one of the things I did earlier this year when I really hit a wall.

And I was like,

Right,

I need to clear my calendar for three weeks.

And I'm very,

Excuse me,

Grateful that I can do that.

And I understand that's not everybody's reality.

But I think as much as we can,

We need to say no when we cannot take any more on.

Because as you keep on saying,

You know,

If we don't advocate for ourselves,

If we don't take care of ourselves,

No one else is going to swoop in and do it for us.

No one else swoops in.

Wouldn't it be wonderful?

Literally you had the fairy godmother who swooped in.

Not to go to the ball.

No,

I want to stay home.

I want to stay home.

Please put my slippers and my dressing gown on and put a good show on Netflix.

And that's my version of a fairy godmother.

Make me a cup of tea.

Yep,

Yep.

I actually,

The group of friends I was just talking about,

We always say that all of us need a wife.

Like we need someone to take care of us the way that a wife takes care of everybody.

But apparently I haven't found one yet.

No,

My girlfriend joked that we'll retire and have our commune and then we'll allow the partners to come and do visits.

No,

I don't think so.

It's just a girl commune with optional one-day access to grandkids if there is any.

It has been a pleasure to reconnect.

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.

And thank you for always being very open and transparent with your own journey.

Because as we've talked about,

If we're having these conversations,

Hopefully more people will be educated and empowered and be able to advocate for themselves.

And as you suggested,

I think that's a really good tip.

If you can't do that for yourself and you at least identify that,

It may not be a partner.

It may be a friend.

It may be,

You know,

Someone that you see as someone who's gone through menopause and kept their sanity reasonably intact.

Reach out and ask them because I guarantee that all of us sisters out there would be very happy to do the supporting.

So,

Yeah.

Thanks,

Nikki.

Absolutely.

Thanks,

Kylie.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Thanks so much for listening in to today's episode.

If you love the show,

As I hope you do,

Please take the time to subscribe on your favourite pod listening platform and rate and review.

And for bonus points,

If you have a friend or someone who popped to mind as you were listening to this episode,

Why not hit the share link wherever you're listening and send them a little love bomb.

Like,

Listen to this.

Did you know this is normal?

I really,

Really,

Really would love to get these beautiful stories into the hearts and ears and minds of so many more midlife mavens and your help spreading the love is truly,

Truly appreciated.

Thank you so much.

I'm Kylie Patchett,

Your host,

And have a spectacular day.