Perfect Moments

While we were sitting here you probably noticed that there was a siren and at the same time, there was a chirping bird. One of those was very pleasant and the other a signal of distress. As with many phases of our lives, the mind has many arisings, some of it distressing and some of it pleasant. Our habits of attention in experiencing the pleasant and the unpleasant will condition how we are experiencing the moments of our lives.

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep.

I'm your host,

Katherine Ingram.

The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues held in Melbourne in November of 2019.

It's called Perfect Moments.

While we were sitting here you probably noticed at one point there was a siren and right around the same time there was a chirping bird.

They were kind of,

Both of these things were occurring in the same little span of time.

One of them we could say is more pleasant than the other.

Sirens are usually not announcing good news,

Right?

Sirens are signaling distress.

And we as sensitive creatures,

When we hear a siren,

Whether we consciously record that or not as a distress signal,

Something probably is recording in our nervous system that hearing a siren means someone is in distress somewhere.

At the same time there was the bird.

Like many moments of our lives,

Many phases of our lives,

Right,

Where the mind has lots of different types of things arising.

Some of it distressing,

Some of it pleasant,

Coming and going,

Little flashes of electrical impulses.

Now,

Due to our habits of mind,

What we do with our attention will condition how we're experiencing our lives,

Right?

So for instance if,

Let's say,

You hear a siren and you start thinking about what if and what's happening and what if something and you start catastrophizing for yourself and you build an entire world of chaos in your mind,

Pretty soon your whole nervous system,

Your whole system is experiencing stress.

Now we do this in even very mild ways.

We sort of have a background anxiety,

A background worry and we maintain it with certain types of thoughts.

You can reverse this habit though.

You can reverse the habit into present awareness,

Into,

I always say the two things I speak about most,

Present awareness and gratitude.

You know,

As we were getting another bird story,

As we were getting the room ready tonight and there were a number of things to do and the sound person was a bit late and I was kind of rushing about a bit but I went over to open this window over here and instead of opening it I saw that there's a bird nest perched right there,

Right there.

You can just look right down into it.

I expected to see an egg and there might be one in there but I didn't peer too much because I didn't want to scare anybody off if someone was in there.

But I just stopped in this perfect moment of looking at that bird nest and feeling the privilege of being able to see one so up close that you could look down into.

And I was,

As I often do,

I was reflecting on how many moments like that are so delicious to have what I call perfect moments.

Really we don't have to label it that way but I just do.

That you know,

That you're just sitting having your coffee and it's a lovely temperature or the particular look of the moon or of the colors of spring.

Your camaraderie with your friend.

Even if you're not talking about anything profound right?

All these little ways,

These little moments that you can be using your attention to really give yourself a lot of delight.

And I would recommend especially if you tend to anxiety to start countering that with a lot more delight.

It's an incredible antidote.

But it does take some intentionality.

You do need to choose it.

And I'm not suggesting that you have to be straining in that or make yourself wrong if you've fallen off into old habits.

But to really just incline in that direction,

That's all that's needed.

So that when you hear the tripping of the birds,

You really hear them.

You let yourself.

You give yourself permission to have many,

Many,

Many perfect moments in your day.

Like that's what your day can be about.

And that will not mean that you turn into a blob,

That you don't get anything done.

It won't mean you get things done.

If things need to be done,

You get them done with joy in your heart.

You get them done with a kind of lightness in your step.

And of course there are times and there are circumstances that are inherently troubling.

And one has to allow whatever appropriate amount of the attention has to go toward that consideration.

Right?

Your beloved friend or partner or child is in the hospital.

They don't know what's going to be happening.

It's bad.

That's inherently troubling.

Very hard to put it aside out of the mind.

So I'm not suggesting that you would do that in those circumstances.

There are times when things are difficult and they just are.

But a lot of the time we're making things difficult unnecessarily.

We're just worrying and fretting and imagining bad things and kind of driving ourselves crazy.

So these are all habits of mind that can be a redirecting of this attention that makes all the difference.

I know because I've worked with my own awareness for so long and it used to run down very scary tracks.

I was a worrier.

I had a hard childhood and as such I just always expected the worst and I was always trying to prepare for it mentally.

But part of that required imagining the worst.

So I was always kind of going around imagining bad things are going to happen.

I'll just try to get somehow mentally prepared.

So it was a very long habit I had through my young adulthood and mercifully along the way after a lot of looking at my mind and understanding what my mind was up to,

The habit started to shift.

And it doesn't just shift.

In my case it doesn't,

Didn't and it hasn't entirely shifted either.

But it doesn't necessarily happen all at once.

Sometimes you get a big break here and there.

I like to say it's more like a shape shifting of a sand dune that's being blown grain by grain by grain.

And sometimes a big wind comes along and blows it into a different shape,

Sort of.

But mostly it's just being slowly blown to a new shape.

And that's more how it is in my case,

Just working with the attention in a relaxed way,

Nothing strained about it.

I say there,

There dear to myself a lot.

What steps do you take daily to keep your mind as it is?

Because like I notice if I go to retreat or if I go,

You know,

And I spend my time in good company,

I come home and I'm very good,

But then,

You know,

Getting caught up in daily life,

It's very quick when I get caught up in little things,

You know,

And little things become big things.

So how do you maintain it on a day to day being surrounded,

You know,

It's all good here in good company,

You go out there.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Well,

You what you point to,

Of course,

Is the importance of Sangha,

You know this word Sangha,

Which is considered the truth community,

The community of those who love the deeper and quieter stillness of being.

That is very important.

And it's good to find it if you can.

If that just isn't so easy,

Or you have a life that has not a lot of space in it to do anything more than you're already doing,

Then I recommend finding times for yourself in the day.

And that can simply be like if you're at your job,

And you get to take a break,

Right,

You get to have a break,

Rather than stuff that break with,

You know,

A bunch of phone calls and a bunch of emails and,

You know,

Really let yourself have the break.

And just even just breathe,

Like noticing your breathing apparatus,

Noticing your breath,

And noticing your sensations,

What you're smelling the feeling of the air on your skin.

Right?

Even when you take a bathroom break,

Right,

You can just go into deep quiet,

Just in those few minutes,

As a little,

As a little rest as though you're having a mini rest.

And then at home,

However you can signal to yourself.

Now another thing I like to tell people is to the best of your ability,

And I don't know your circumstances in terms of do you live with other people or children or whatever,

But as much as possible,

Let your home place be sacred space,

So that you when you walk into your home,

You feel at home and you feel that it's signaling you that this is a peaceful place to be.

So some people,

For whatever reason,

They create places of chaos,

Such that when they walk in their home it's like going into a carnival,

Right?

And there's things to be handled and there's all this stuff going on and blah blah blah.

And also the way that some people live,

Where things are just left undone.

And so all around you,

There's a,

That's signaling,

Oh this needs to be handled and that needs to be handled.

That might be a situation where more simplicity is needed,

Right?

If one cannot handle all of your details of living such that you can create sacred space,

Then there's probably too many details.

And that might be in all kinds of ways.

I mean I watch people kind of create massive labyrinths of complication,

Whether it's in their home life with stuff or extra homes that they don't even hardly go to but have to constantly require management or just a certain level of chaos that things are not being kept up,

You know?

There's old ancient food in the cupboards in the fridge and it's just a mess.

These are not peaceful ways of living,

In my opinion.

So this is another thing to just consider.

Is my space,

Is my home signaling peace?

So that when I'm there,

Even if I have things to do,

I might,

You know,

If you have children that you're taking care of or a partner or just work at home,

That whatever context in which that is occurring,

The space itself is holding the activity in such a way that it's like the activity that would go on in a temple,

Right?

In a beautiful temple.

So these are just some little simple things to do.

Now what to do with one's mind,

Because as you say,

In retreat,

When you're with,

You know,

Good company as you say,

There's a transmission that's happening,

An osmosis.

Do you know that word,

Osmosis?

It means when a group of people are together and they're considering something or thinking about something or they're doing something,

There's a felt connection,

Right?

There's a felt connection that is catching.

Yeah.

There's something shifting there as well.

Exactly right,

Right.

So you feel an osmosis when you're with people on a certain type of wavelength.

You might also feel it if you're with people who are very angry.

If you're in a situation where everyone is angry,

It triggers your own,

You get the osmotic effect then as well.

So you're talking about being in good company and definitely in good company,

It is easier to be quiet and simple and peaceful and delighted.

It will require,

If you're having to do that on your own a lot,

It does require a strong intentionality.

Now we're lucky to live in a time when we have access to listen to good company.

We can listen to good company as long as you have the internet.

You can be tuned into really good company and really great conversation and directions and guided meditations.

So that's another way that you can kind of keep tuned and to just remind yourself as needed,

You know,

Or put that on in your car if you have to be or on headsets on public transport.

So these are all the ways.

Sometimes when we start,

One of the unfortunate aspects of getting kind of caught up in the swirl is that once you start getting caught up in the swirl,

You resist doing the very things that could interrupt it,

Right?

You don't feel like it.

It's like,

No,

I'm not doing that.

Almost as a kind of,

I want to say being a brat to yourself.

You just feel a bit bratty.

It's like I'm not doing it.

So again,

Overcoming the resistance to what you know is going to be good for you.

And all the while,

A gentleness,

Not to make this attuning something that is stressful,

And feeling guilty that you're not doing it.

So all the while,

It's a very gentle kind of leaning into.

And I like to say it's a falling in love with.

It's a falling in love with your own inner peace.

And the deeper you fall in love with that,

The less you compromise it.

And you get to,

You can get to a point where you just,

You don't care what you have to give up.

You're not going to give,

You're not going to compromise your peace.

I marvel,

I have been marveling for a very long time at what people do in compromise and give up peace.

It's baffling.

I don't know how they have the stamina for it.

Right.

But people do.

People do.

They want something.

They want something so badly.

And it's like,

There's an example.

I'm not sure that this is true,

But it's a good metaphor.

That there's an example of,

In India,

Apparently in olden times,

Hunters would hollow out a coconut shell and put something sweet inside.

And only a hole big enough for a monkey to stick his hand in if it's open.

But as soon as the monkey grabs whatever's in there,

He can't get his hand out.

And the legend is that it's how hunters could trap monkeys,

That they would come and shoot it with a bow and arrow.

I know it's very sad,

Horrible,

But it's the holding.

Yeah.

So,

You know,

That's another thing to really see is sometimes we resist some sort of simplification or just a kind of clearing out of the brambles of things that are no longer working.

And they hang around a lot longer than past the point you know it's not working.

You know,

Because we're afraid of loss.

We're afraid of what it's going to mean.

We're afraid of a change of our own identity.

A lot of times we see ourselves in a certain way.

We have a certain vision of who we are.

And the uprooting of that,

Which sometimes just has to happen for peace of mind,

Can be scary.

And there has to be kind of a willingness to just be,

You don't even know who you are.

You are how you're going to be.

Yeah,

And I was just going to ask you like what your perspective on this is.

Like a lot of people can tend to use spirituality as a bit of an anesthetic,

A spiritual bypass I'm talking about.

So that,

Oh,

You know,

This life's so hard.

So,

You know,

I purify myself so I don't have to come back next life.

And,

You know,

They talk like that.

And,

You know,

I just wanted you to sort of talk to,

Because I think I've watched a little bit of your clips and you talk about a more embodied presence,

Sort of,

Presence I guess in life,

Rather than sort of seeing that,

You know,

A lot of people talk about the illusion of life and maya and this is not real and this is sort of a detachment there and the kind of disconnection.

So I just thought I'd get your viewpoint on that.

Well,

You've expressed it already.

You've expressed it well.

I do subscribe much more to embodiment,

To assuming this is the life we have.

We don't know of any other lives.

This is the one we know we have.

And the importance of showing up for this with all of its,

You know,

Mess and sorrow and joys and wonders and yeah.

The title of my book is Passionate Presence.

It's about really understanding the passion involved in embodiment and the care and the consideration of others.

Yes,

Very much so.

I really have no use for these transcendent stories.

I tried them on at different points over the 40 or 50 years that I've been doing this,

But they long ago left me.

You know,

I not only felt a disconnect intellectually,

But I feel that those kinds of stories are dangerous and are part of why people are asleep and why the destruction goes on.

Yeah.

So I think a lot of people do use scripturalism to escape their feeling things or their circumstances.

Yes,

They do.

Yeah.

They say things like it's all perfect.

So whatever is happening is just perfect.

So,

You know,

If Bolsonaro burns down the Amazon,

It's perfect.

Right?

And they'll say,

Or they'll say it's an illusion.

Right?

Not really happening.

Or it's karma.

That one really annoys me.

Really annoys me.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Right.

Yeah,

The last one I said.

Right.

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

That one is cruel.

And I'm always amazed when people talk about how something good will happen and they'll just talk about how the perfection of how it happened and the synchronicity,

You know,

I always think,

What about,

You know,

All the people who were accidentally killed today,

You know?

Right.

I mean,

This is just such a kind of,

From my way of seeing,

A puerile vision of reality.

And so,

No,

I don't subscribe to any of those,

But they sell well.

They really sell all the different programs that let you off the hook.

So you don't really have to care that much.

You know,

You can kind of stand back and think,

Oh.

So my other question was,

Like,

Some people get into following a guru.

And I mean,

Sometimes a spiritual teacher might be necessary,

But other times they just become dependent on his guidance and advice where they maybe stop thinking for themselves.

I was just wondering what your views on that were,

Because I mean,

I had someone close to me that was just devoted to everything and kind of diaphied and made the guru into a bit of a god or deity when he's just a human being from my point of view.

Of course,

That's absolutely the case.

And any of the good teachers do not show up,

I will dare say,

As gurus.

Any of the really good teachers show up as spiritual friends and understand that they know their own clay feet very well and are usually really good teachers aren't going to be hiding that either.

You know,

They're not going to be pretending to be some holy roller.

But the ones who do,

The gurus,

The so-called gurus,

First of all,

Again,

It sells well.

You know,

People like having a middleman or a woman.

It sells very well.

It's very compelling.

People feel like they're part of something enhanced.

I always feel that anyone who sets themselves up like that is either deceptive or deluded.

And in either case,

It's not cause for great respect.

So I say run from anybody presenting that way.

You know,

That's how I see it.

And usually they fall from grace eventually anyway.

Yes,

Indeed.

Right.

And sometimes it's posthumously,

You know,

They got away with it during their lifetime,

But then you hear once they're gone and it's safe to speak out,

Then you hear all of the various forms of abuse,

Money,

Power,

Sex.

And it is so ubiquitous,

Right?

It is just,

It's laughably ubiquitous that that happens.

Because usually anyone setting themselves up like that,

There's something off,

Right?

There's already something off.

So the really great teachers,

And there are people who are teachers,

Just because they're sharing their experience,

You know,

It's how it is,

How we learn.

And I've had great teachers.

All my great teachers were just regular folk.

And I've interviewed a lot of great teachers over the years when I was a journalist.

I sought out those type of regular folk teachers who met some of the most now legendary,

They're really legendary people.

But they didn't see it that way.

And they didn't present that way.

You know,

They were charming and,

You know,

Irreverent and fun and playful and just regular,

You know.

So I'm highly sensitive.

I like that you asked this question.

I'm very sensitive.

I can smell when I'm around someone.

Who's doing a holy roller thing.

I just notice it right away.

Yeah,

I can even hear it if I'm listening to,

You know,

Their talk or an interaction that they're having.

I can hear it.

I think so anyway.

I just think so.

Maybe I'm not hearing it accurately.

But fortunately,

I was very lucky with the people I studied with.

They all were regular,

Ordinary.

One of my Buddhist teachers,

He had done a month retreat in his room at our center in Massachusetts and a silent retreat by himself.

His meals would be delivered to his outside of his door.

And after the month,

The staff of which I was one,

Were sitting in the staff dining room and he sauntered in.

Suddenly there he was.

We didn't know he was coming out that day.

So he just appeared into the room.

And we all went,

Wow,

You're here.

How did it go?

How was it?

And he shook his head and he said,

The mind has no pride.

Meaning,

I sat with my crazy mind for a month.

He was our teacher.

And that was part of the teachings.

You know,

It's fabulous when your teacher is real and shares with you their own process.

So one of my,

Another one of my great teachers said,

A true teacher will just give you his or her experience.

All the rest are preachers.

And there are a lot of preachers out there.

That's the other thing too,

With some of these gurus.

I'll notice they're not saying anything fresh.

There's nothing they're saying.

It's like pablum.

It's like cliches.

But they're doing some kind of presentation,

Almost like a theatrical show that is giving,

It's like giving a projection,

You know,

That people fall for.

Like the way girls used to faint in front of the Beatles.

You know?

I mean,

That was my experience.

You were fighting at the Beatles.

That was just my experience with the next that was really into her guru.

When he was serving in Australia,

I got the feeling that he was recruiting obviously from all the disciples.

And I sort of,

You know,

The guy that wasn't interested,

He didn't want to even talk to me or engage with me.

Well,

It often does become cult-like around those situations,

You know,

And then you're either in or out of the cult.

And you have to do cult speak and you have to walk away from anybody who doesn't share this obsession.

And it's unlike ordinary friends where we can disagree about all kinds of things and remain very close friends,

Right?

In ordinary,

Regular adult friendships.

I couldn't disagree or challenge any of the things that he would say.

I was the bad guy.

Yes,

I've seen it over the many years and I've met lots of people who escaped from cults.

So anyone who's creating something like that,

There's something already wrong at the outset.

And it's also,

I think,

A great conceptual mistake to think that the so-called guru is floating above all of it and doesn't know,

Doesn't understand what's happening in his or her name.

No.

You know,

It's all rolling out from the top.

The apples don't fall far from the tree.

So,

Yeah.

And it throws us back to,

You know,

Let's agree that this life has a lot of hard components.

There's a lot of suffering in life that's real.

That's not imaginary.

It's loss.

Things that are hard.

And we delicate creatures who feel so much,

We look around for anything,

Any shelter in the storm.

Anything that'll get us through the night,

Right?

We clutch on.

So we understand when we see people who end up in those circumstances and who perhaps are feeling some sense of belonging and something that's giving meaning to this crazy existence that is wild and unpredictable and seemingly has no particular,

I mean,

It's fairly random.

You know,

Handling all of that takes a certain steadiness of awareness and mind.

And we can understand why people pick up anything,

Any kind of addiction,

You know,

Any kind of belief system,

How people get obsessed about anything that gives them some relief or pleasure or break from their own craziness,

You know,

Or fear or whatever.

But those are all,

Well,

Some people are just not psychologically built for those kinds of assuagements.

Some people,

Their minds are more rational,

And they're just not going to be entertained or comforted by any of those things.

Then where do you find your comfort?

You have to really be a light unto yourself,

Like the Buddha said,

Supposedly,

An island unto yourself,

A lamp that guides your own self and use your own attention.

That's your sanctuary,

Your attention.

Yes,

And also I have like,

No question,

Thoughts about a teacher,

Because I'm asking myself often,

Do I need a teacher?

I mean in the general way.

And every time I found myself absolutely by myself,

And I don't have a teacher,

I have in my life influential people,

Who just influence me in some way,

But not a teacher.

And when I'm looking for teacher,

I'm always fail.

Yes,

And I don't see that someone can give me something.

But I have one very good example of a Russian poet,

And he wrote about himself that when he writes something,

When you think about him that he's a genius,

He goes and wash dishes.

Yes,

And for me this thought is very important,

Because I'm also doing writing and art and all these things.

And I found myself every time in this situation,

Oh,

I've done masterpiece,

I go and wash dishes,

Something like this.

Yes,

There are a lot of Zen stories of the Zen master washing the floors,

And there's even a joke of all these different monks at the Zen center were taking menial tasks and saying I'm nobody,

I'm nobody.

And then they were observing one of the people who was like a servant who was doing it,

And one of the monks says to the other,

Look who thinks he's nobody.

So,

Yeah,

It is beautiful though to see people who are very,

Very talented and who wear it so lightly,

Right?

You know,

Sometimes you think you're going to meet some one of these people and they're just legendary to the world.

You know,

They're just,

People would just die to be in their company,

You know,

But they themselves are,

Can be really naturally humble,

Like really naturally humble.

And I've known a few of those characters and been around with them in public.

And I'm just so delighted to see that when I'm,

Then when I really do then feel I'm in the presence of greatness.

I feel that I'm in the presence of greatness when I'm with someone of that level of talent or wisdom or just largess of being who truly isn't identified with it,

Just experiences it as a gift that they have.

Yeah,

That is greatness.

In the last conversation with someone here,

You've mentioned a word,

Talent,

Wearing a talent lightly,

And that made me think about parts of our identity that we'll wear as dresses and try them on and off and sometimes get attached or not attached or identify with or not anymore.

And I'm curious what you think about that wearing quality of parts of the self.

Yeah,

More and more I feel a sense of a lightness about my own sort of conditioning and personality and preferences and whatever gifts and talents.

It feels more and more impersonal in a way,

Even though I understand it's personally expressing itself,

But I don't really have much ownership of it,

If you know what I mean.

So do you know who Joan Baez is by chance?

She was a quite famous singer in the US,

Close friends with Bob Dylan and a legend in those days,

Not as well known now,

But she was also a very big civil rights activist and she's done amazing things in her life.

She's an older woman now,

Older than me.

And I once interviewed her and she said that everyone always approaches her as though she has this incredible gift,

That being her voice,

Her singing voice.

She said to me,

But I only feel like I'm experiencing a gift that was given to me.

So it's such a great understanding that whatever talents or genius you have or whatever,

To experience it as a gift of life,

That whatever made you,

That that was encoded in it somehow,

You didn't do it.

You can't really,

Like the mind shouldn't really have any pride because,

You know,

And so,

You know,

Whatever,

Whatever,

And on the other side too,

Whatever the conditioning is,

Whatever your conditioning is,

You also didn't do that.

And whatever you perceive as your flaws or missteps or whatever,

That's also part of it.

Conditioning is part of,

You know,

What it can do is it can arise with remorse,

Which I perceive as a kind of healthy reset of the conditioning and it redirects the behavior,

Which is good.

But ultimately you begin to see how,

Like I say,

It's,

You start wearing everything pretty lightly,

Who you are and what your preferences are and what your prejudices are and what your desires are and what your talents are and all of it.

It's just,

It's like you came in here and fully loaded a program and you have this tiny little bit of wiggle room as to where you're going to put your attention.

So who's the one who's putting attention then or wearing those parts?

The one I'm asking this question.

Right,

So there must be something,

Something that is then choosing where to put attention or which dress or personality or part of identity to wear.

No more so than my turkeys as to what time they're going to go get water.

Right?

Right?

It's happening here.