My Hope Is Still Healing With Frankie Orella

When she was just 17 years old, Frankie Orella lost her mom to breast cancer. Her religious community was less than helpful and while she remained a part of the church, Frankie also looked to songwriting to “speak” to the pain of her loss. Her latest endeavor is a series of songs based on Elisabeth Kubler-Ross’s Five Stages of Grief. We’re talking about the mystery of grief, why being in a safe or stable place is often a trigger for grief, and how after a loss, hope needs time and space to heal.

Transcript

Grief Growers,

I'm really excited to introduce you to Frankie Orella,

Who has produced a series of songs about grief using the structure of the five stages.

I listened to her very first song,

Denial,

And knew that I had to share her work with you.

So Frankie,

Welcome to the show.

And if you could share your loss or grief-adjacent story with us,

Kind of what inspired this project.

Yeah,

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited to get to chat with you.

So my mom died when I was 17.

She was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was in the eighth grade.

And she was sick for five years went through chemo,

Radiation,

All the traumatic things that come with cancer.

But I think after losing her,

Especially because I have grown up in the church,

And the church didn't really know how to respond to loss very well.

Just a lot of cliche sayings,

Which not only churchgoers say,

But just the like,

You know,

Well,

God has a plan,

Or you'll get better in time.

And,

You know,

This will pass things that just just if you walk through anything hard,

You know,

It's not true.

And so my gut reaction to that was like,

I,

I feel like a crazy person,

I feel like no one understands me,

Or other people who are walking through something like this.

And so I want to start a conversation,

Particularly for people in the church who don't know how to engage.

But obviously,

People outside of it as well,

To just kind of join into that conversation.

So that was kind of,

That was a big part of why I want to do this project was continuously running into other people who,

Like me,

Kind of felt crazy and isolated in the strange things that they're experiencing through their grieving.

I think that's really wise and insightful,

Because there's almost like,

If I can't buy into the belief that I'm being given,

There's like a,

There's like an outcast feeling or like a craziness that comes with that,

Like,

If I don't believe God has a plan,

Then who am I?

What am I adjacent to this community?

And I wonder if you could speak a little bit more on that,

Because I think there's a lot of people listening,

Who,

Me included,

Who were raised in a Christian tradition,

Who have either kind of floated away from that group of people or have had to find special subsets of those people that really honor grief.

Yeah,

Yeah,

It's,

It's been a challenge.

I think,

Before I walked into writing these stages are just the specific like these five songs that are,

You know,

Elizabeth Cooper Ross's like stages of grief.

I was on staff at a church and there was a lot of suffering going on.

A little girl had been diagnosed with Ewing sarcoma.

And then she's like a friend of ours.

And then two months after my husband actually was also diagnosed with cancer.

So very traumatic and scary and to watch a church community kind of flounder and like,

What do we do?

And almost this fear and embracing that something is hard and sad is strange to me because while I've struggled with the church,

Probably since losing my mom,

And as an organization,

I think it's interesting because I don't think the gospel the Bible says to not be sad or to not grieve.

So if you look historically,

People took time to grieve their loved ones.

Even though Jesus there's a story about him raising someone from the dead,

Even though he was going to raise Lazarus was this person from the dead,

He still took time to stop and grieve over that.

And so I think that it's really touchy,

Because I think,

Unfortunately,

Churches are made up of imperfect humans needing one of them.

Like,

I'm sure I've said things that have really offended people,

Or hurt them unintentionally,

Of course,

Just like I think people in the church who speak into people's lives who are grieving large losses that,

You know,

Other people can't even comprehend if they haven't walked through something similar.

They don't know what to say.

So they kind of just talk when in reality,

Probably the best thing they can do is just sit and listen.

But for whatever reason,

The church is really uncomfortable with that with with the sitting and they're hurting with sitting and brokenness,

Which I just think is ironic,

Because I think that's what the church is supposed to do.

I could totally just go on a rampage with that one.

But does that kind of answer what you're asking me a little bit?

Yeah,

And I think I even want to dive into the rampage a bit.

Okay.

Because it sounds like this is something that has really informed your life.

And despite that you have held some seat of,

I don't know if the word is authority,

But like close membership within the church.

And so you're like,

Despite and or inclusive of this,

I'm still a part of this broken hole.

Yes.

Or this dysfunctional hole that doesn't really know how to hold space for grief.

And I think there's a lot of power in that having somebody who has grieved in an organization or a space that doesn't know how to do grief well,

And not necessarily that the role of,

Of torch bearing or being the person who has these skills and is responsible for bringing them to the table falls squarely on you,

Right.

But I think there is something to be said for,

Like infiltrating organizations with the type of change we want to see as opposed to walking away.

Because I know the temptation for me,

Especially after my mom died,

And I was hit with all this,

You know,

God has a plan for everything or time heals all,

Or he won't give you more than you can handle blah,

Blah,

Blah.

Not I was like,

If that your finger walk away,

And I've shut that door to my life,

At least through the avenue of traditional capital C Church forever,

I have not returned to that type of organization.

So I'm really curious about this almost alchemy from the inside.

Yeah.

It is very imperfect.

And I think that,

Yeah,

After I'm still struggling,

Especially I rolled off staff,

Being on staff at church as a music director in September.

So it hasn't been very long that I've been out of the position of like leadership at a church.

And yeah,

I think it's been very,

Very interesting,

Very imperfect,

Very finding,

I think,

Different ways to engage with God outside of for right now,

The structure building.

But also,

I think even going back to right after my mom passed.

I think that initially,

I didn't feel very sad.

I,

I think I was so just close knit into a church community that did take care of me,

But it was kind of a strange,

I don't ever want to say it was fake,

Because who am I to say really,

What is real or what's fake,

But it was a weird spiritual high that was very looking back on it,

Like,

There's no way that was real.

But I think it was denial,

Honestly,

Truly,

That was just carrying me through the kind of first few months.

But I was very like,

Oh,

God's good.

He has a plan.

And not that I don't believe that that is true today.

I still do believe that.

But I think that the months that followed this time of spiritual high,

Whatever you want to call it,

Peace,

Whatever.

I dealt with debilitating anxiety and depression,

That I just had no idea,

People would keep saying,

I'm praying for you,

Or they would pray over me.

And again,

Not that I didn't appreciate it.

But it was just this,

Instead of me embracing,

Like,

Okay,

Something really traumatic just happened in my life,

I have lost someone who I dearly love,

Who was,

It's she wasn't supposed to die,

You know,

Like,

If,

As someone who is still like,

Still calls himself a Christian,

A believer,

Like,

I don't believe we were made for death.

And so I don't believe we were meant to experience it.

And so of course,

This is unnatural.

And I'm gonna freak out.

So how I feel like something's wrong with me,

Because I'm panicking,

And I'm having anxiety.

And it honestly wasn't until right after I got married,

And then I started having like actual panic attacks.

My husband's great,

It was not his fault.

It was totally just grief that was resurfacing for me.

When I was having panic attacks,

It was kind of the realization of like,

You know,

I don't think there's anything wrong with me.

I think there's just a lot of grief that is still just sitting,

It's like in my chest and needs to,

It just needs to be talked about.

It doesn't need to be prayed away,

Because I don't think that's the goal of prayer.

I think that I need to sit with it.

And I need people who are willing to sit with me in that instead of just patting on the shoulder and reading scripture to me.

Because when I share,

I believe there there can be a time for that.

But not when someone is in the pit of despair.

Like if you see someone drowning,

You don't just yell encouraging words like swim faster,

Friend.

You know,

It's like,

No,

Throw that person a rope,

Go and get them.

Yeah,

I want to I really agree with that.

And literally just wrote down,

The goal of prayer is not to get rid of grief.

And I think people,

Especially during national and international crises,

Natural disasters,

Mass shootings,

Epidemics,

They're like,

I'm praying for you as if that in and of itself is enough.

And granted,

Sometimes prayer is all that we can do from where we are in the world.

But slash and I'm like,

If you're closer prayer combined with action with mindfulness,

Even financial donation is so so helpful.

And the aftermath of devastating loss.

I want to circle back to this idea,

Because I'm not entirely sure that I wrap my head around it and or kind of what you're getting out of the core of it here.

And that is the sentence we were not made for death.

Yeah,

Because I think from my perspective,

Or the way I heard it is that you do not believe humans are made to die,

Or maybe are good at experiencing death.

Whereas I'm like,

Oh,

We're definitely born and then it's inevitable that we die.

So can we revisit that?

Yeah,

Absolutely.

So in a physical sense,

Yes,

We are going to die.

It is inevitable.

Totally agree with you,

I think,

Because I do still hold to I guess the Christian tradition,

Like I believe what the Bible says about us being spiritual beings and that before,

You know,

Going back to the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve in Genesis,

If we talk about the fall of man,

When sin entered the world,

All of that stuff like,

Before that,

I don't,

I think,

Eternity is like,

Inside of us as humans,

Like our spirits,

Don't,

I don't think our spirits die.

And so when things happen,

Like,

Death,

Which is why I think,

You know,

It does wreak such havoc on us.

It's just not the way I don't think it was the way it was meant to be.

And that's kind of the tragedy of it.

But also for me as a believer,

What has given me permission to grieve in a lot of ways for me personally,

That's just,

This is not,

You know,

There's not a God sitting up in the clouds,

Pointing his finger and shaking his head and being like,

Why,

Like,

This is dumb,

You shouldn't be sad or like,

Just get over it.

Like he groups with us,

I believe.

So that's,

That's kind of what I meant,

Which I realized can totally be controversial.

But that's,

That's kind of where I sit currently.

No,

I really liked that.

And thank you for clarifying,

Because at some point,

I was like,

Wait,

Do you believe we're just not ever supposed to die?

Because I'm sure that's,

I'm like,

I'm sure that's a school of thought that's out there somewhere.

But I know not me.

And I was like,

Oh,

My word.

Sorry,

Really,

You know,

That would be revolutionary if that was the case,

Because we would have never talked about that.

I'm coming back for but no,

I hear you.

And the first thing that comes to mind,

I don't know if you've seen this movie,

I believe it came out in the mid 90s.

But it was called the Iron Giant.

And it's beautiful grief course,

If you've not seen it,

It's animated,

It won several awards,

And yet,

People have rarely heard of it.

But it's a movie that was based on the 1950s or 60s,

When like the Cold War was happening,

And this robot crash lands on Earth somewhere in Maine,

And this kid finds it and the robot is a sentient being in the kid essentially is teaching this robot a lot of lessons about life as the rest of the world,

The adults,

Quote,

Unquote,

Are trying to destroy it because they can't figure out if it's a weapon or not.

And they're scared that it's come from another,

Another country that's trying to kill or whatever.

So it's a phenomenal movie.

It's voiced by some very famous people.

But there's a really touching scene in the movie where the robot is essentially asking what's going to happen to him if the adults succeed and do end up killing him,

Quote,

Unquote,

Killing him.

And the kid teaches him that souls don't die.

And it's this really,

Really beautiful piece in the movie.

I get chills even now talking about it.

This is one of my favorite films.

But just this idea of it's grief is so absolutely strange,

Because I think you're right that like we're seeing and witnessing death with our eyes,

And we know it's going to happen to our physical bodies.

And yet there's this really uncomfortable juxtaposition where we also know and grief growers,

It's okay if this is not your belief as well,

But this is mine,

That there's something eternal in all of us.

And so it's like this,

We're all of a sudden coming up against Holy shit,

I've never had to hold these two realities.

Yeah.

Like I logically know things will die,

But to have the spiritual experience of death and yet know that spirits live on is a wild thing to reckon with.

And I think that's part of our quote,

Unquote,

Job or mission as humans to figure out how to how to be not at peace,

But like to have settled that or carry make room to have both of those realities be true.

And that that leads into my next question.

And I know this is different for everybody.

But how do you continue or honor the remaining soul spirit of your mom?

Yeah,

In the midst of your life?

If you do believe that her soul has not died?

Where is she?

And how does she show up for you?

Hmm.

That's a great question.

Yeah,

It's,

It's little things.

It's funny.

I think honoring her has has changed over the years.

And I think I remember,

I think I read it was on your website.

But I was reading about I feel like you were,

I think we're about the same age.

I'm making a guess because I think like you lost your mom in your teen years as well.

Right?

For your early 20s.

Maybe 21 for me,

And then I'm 27.

Okay.

Okay.

I just turned 28.

So yes,

We're rock on by the same age.

Yeah.

I there's something just with each passing year.

So it will be 11 years,

April 1,

That my mom died.

And every year,

It's just kind of changed with how I honor her some years on that date.

Specifically,

I will go get like butter pecan ice cream,

Because that was her favorite thing.

Or I will just look through pictures of her or I have these like video clips from like Thanksgiving,

I'll sometimes just review or even chatting with my husband or my friends about her and I've had some really sweet friends over the years who have literally come and like left flowers on my doorstep with a card that's like Happy Birthday,

Teresa,

Teresa's my mom's name.

And it's been so amazing and life giving for me to have friends who,

Instead of being afraid of saying anything about my mom who will ask questions about her,

Because I love to talk about her.

Because I mean,

She I don't know,

It's weird.

Sometimes I feel like,

And I guess it makes sense.

It's out of people's own like discomfort.

They don't want to ask questions about someone who's passed maybe just from the fear of not wanting to upset the greever,

But I don't know if this is true for you or for everyone,

But I enjoy being asked questions about her.

And so that's one way and then as far as where I think she is,

It's,

It's so interesting.

I remember still the night she passed away,

So she had cancer,

But then basically went to her oncologist and they gave her like two weeks to live.

They were like,

This tumor has spread,

It's encompassed your entire liver,

There's nothing we can do.

And she came home that night and actually ended up passing away that night,

Which was very bizarre.

So it's kind of like long term illness and then she was gone.

And I remember as you know,

17 but I was standing in her bedroom and she literally kept like,

Pointing like upward and being like,

Open the door,

Open the door,

No,

Close the door,

No,

Open it.

No,

Leave it like was going back and forth.

And so I'm standing there like literally opening,

Closing her bedroom door,

Not knowing that she is not talking to me.

She's not seeing me.

She is.

So I'm saying we're looking crazy,

But she's engaging with what I believe in.

I believe it was God just that he was with her in that moment.

So I,

My hope,

My belief is that she is with him.

And as far as what she can see,

Here,

I have no idea,

It blows my mind and sometimes like stresses me out to really think about it.

Like,

Man,

What if she's aware of this or aware of that?

And I don't know the answers.

And I think I'm learning part of my grief journey is is learning to be comfortable with mystery and sit in the unknown of like,

Well,

That's what faith is sometimes all times,

Actually,

I can't see it.

But this is what I'm believing and hope to be true.

And yeah,

Thanks for asking that.

That is a good question.

I'm getting so many chills as you're saying this,

Because our job and grief,

Some people ask what the purpose of grief is,

And I struggle so much to,

To have an answer for people,

But I think it literally just came out of your mouth.

And that is to be comfortable with mystery.

And I think it expands far beyond grief,

Because there are some things in our lives beyond loss that are unexplainable,

But this is the ultimate.

And to come face to face with it at 17 years old is like,

Wow,

And I'm ready.

Now that we've shared our ages is that a whole decade has passed for you.

And so I wonder if you can speak on the notion of milestones and also just inching closer to your mother's age when she died.

Yeah,

Whoo.

Yeah,

Milestones were hard.

The first milestone I remember was my high school graduation.

And I was homeschooled,

But I still went to this like really awkward two day week homeschooler co op thing.

It was a time let me tell you,

But there are probably only 14 of us but we still you know,

Did the whole like graduation walk in.

And her not being there is like the first time I was like,

Man,

This is gonna keep happening.

Meeting my now husband and like,

Dating him and getting to know him and having him meet other family members and her not being there for that.

Devastating.

Getting married,

I think has been the hardest one so far.

We don't have any children yet.

And actually,

That's something I'm terrified of.

I want children but I'm also terrified of the grief that I know is going to resurface with looking at a little baby and not being able to share that with my mom.

And even just having questions.

So as a,

As a newlywed,

I found myself the day of my wedding,

I think I anticipated a lot of anxiety.

And it was beautiful in a sense that there really wasn't any there was we had a chair that was left for her in a place like she has had a Bible that had like her name engraved in the front of it.

And so I put that in some flowers like in her chair,

So she was still honored on that day.

And I thought of her but it wasn't heart wrench,

Heart wrenching on that particular day.

And so I think what I didn't expect was the month after we got married.

So this was in 2015.

We'll be married five years in May.

And the month after my world just completely fell apart.

I had never been.

I felt so happy,

Which that's what's so weird is I,

I'd never felt more safe.

Because even though my mom was great,

My family overall,

Pretty dysfunctional,

We didn't really talk about feelings.

Counseling was like for crazy people,

Which I'm a heavy advocate of counseling.

You know,

You don't take any kind of medicine,

That's,

That's nuts.

Or even just,

We weren't allowed to say the word cancer in our home.

It was very,

Very strange and unhealthy.

So going from that,

And after losing my mom to not feeling safe,

That was like what I've learned.

I think my mom ultimately had offered me with safety.

And so I got married to this wonderful man,

And I felt safe.

And I was terrified.

I think of anything compromising that or Yeah,

Anything compromising that or taking it away from me.

And so that was honestly where my journey,

Truly to like dig into my grief started because I was having panic attacks that were I mean,

Like we're talking like,

Four times a week,

At least I wouldn't go to the grocery store by myself.

I was afraid of certain foods,

Just very strange things that we're all coming back to control.

But ultimately,

After talking with a really wise counselor,

I was like,

This just makes no sense.

Because I'm so happy.

She was like,

No,

It makes total sense.

Because you're happy.

And because you feel safe,

You feel safe to fall apart and to grieve what you have never felt safe to grieve.

And I thought that was really insightful.

And the amount of newlyweds I have now talked to,

Who had the same thing happen to them is unreal.

Like it's a thing I had no idea.

Anyways,

That's a little bit of a rabbit trail.

But that was such a big milestone.

And it did wreck me.

So I get a little nervous when big things happen in my life.

After like,

The fair amount.

Yeah,

Well,

And it's almost like each milestone is like you're creating,

Creating a new contract or creating a new commitment,

Whatever it is,

Stepping into something larger.

And every time we it's like,

Oh,

My God,

Now that I've said yes to this,

I could lose this too.

And so the recognition is there.

And I love what this counselor said of,

We wait until we're safe to deal with grief.

And this is something I hear from my clients,

Too.

I have people coming to me,

You know,

Two,

Three,

510 years after a loss thinking they're crazy because they're still grieving.

I'm like,

Your your life has finally settled,

The dust has settled.

And now the grief has room to come up front and center.

I also wrote something down of,

I read something online recently that people think in the brain that joy and happiness is the opposite of sadness and desperation.

But in fact,

Especially our extreme emotions,

Like overwhelming joy and massive despair,

Are really close to each other like next door neighbors in the brain.

And so it's really easy for our brains to switch from one extreme to another because they live so close together in our brains.

And so in these places where we're like,

Oh,

My God,

My life is so fantastic.

I can't believe I actually get to be in this place.

Holy shit,

I'm still grieving.

It's it's they,

And people think they're crazy.

How can I let sadness and despair in right now,

At this time,

Because I'm supposed to be nothing but 100% happy.

I'm like,

Oh,

These things are living right next door to each other.

And it makes sense,

You know,

That they would both be showing up right now.

And I see that happening here,

Too,

Of like,

Oh,

My God,

It's the happiest day of my life.

And yes,

My mom's not here,

But we honored her and we did it right.

And then a month later comes crashing down.

I'm like,

Oh,

We walked to our next door neighbor's house and said hello.

And their door opened and for as much as I'm asking about it.

Yeah,

This can be torture for a lot of people to not know that this is happening.

So thank you for bringing that up.

Because I've never heard that as a conversation either.

But almost like,

Almost like postpartum depressions,

Like post nuptial depression,

That kicks in or post nuptial anxiety.

And I have never before heard that as a conversation out in the world.

So thank you for sharing that.

I know we've got about 10 to 12 minutes left here on the call.

And I want to delve into your history with music and why these five stages of grief needed to exist in the world in the form of music.

Yeah,

So my history with music,

I grew up listening to music,

I grew up listening to the Beatles,

Specifically,

So just very melodic.

Great lyrics,

Just solid.

It's a solid band.

They're my favorite.

Still love to listen to them.

As a teen,

I was writing a lot and was shopped around to a few labels and kind of did that whole thing I was never signed and it was kind of what it's actually a situation where I took a break from writing and from doing anything else that was creative in that sense,

I would still like lead worship at churches.

So like,

Do music things there.

But as far as writing my own stuff,

I just come took a break.

And then in 2017,

I wrote five songs that were specific to my journey with grief,

Like they were for my mom.

So I released them into the world was under a different name.

And that was more for me than anything else.

But after releasing that,

I had a lot of people coming to me and saying,

Wow,

I really I resonated with this,

You know,

I lost my dad,

Or I lost this person.

And I just started seeing a space for it.

And even more so just this ongoing conversation of people when they're walking through something so tragic.

We don't always have words to express what we're feeling or what we're thinking,

Just how our mind is processing what's happening.

And so as someone who craves safety and security,

So in a gram talk for a second,

I'm a six.

And I just and I need security and safety.

And I long to create that for other people.

And so as an artist,

What better way than to use this tool that you know,

Has been used in counseling offices and people have talked about and put it into the form of music to where even if you know,

You've never lost someone,

You can experience anger,

You can experience depression,

And so just using them as a guide to convey what I feel like I've experienced,

But also what other people in my life have experienced.

So taking the time to sit with different people,

Whether it be they went through a divorce or lost a parent lost a pet,

They went through a bad breakup,

Whatever it was just to hear their perspective and kind of research and gather that data.

And create a lot of it,

He actually was inspired by I don't know if you know,

The artists sleeping at last.

Yes,

I do.

Okay,

So Oh,

He's based out of Chicago.

So there you go.

Did you know that I did not actually I dated this girl in college and made a mixed CD of his music for us.

Oh,

My gosh,

Yes,

He's my favorite.

And so I was I've always been inspired by him.

Like he did a whole thing for the planet and for the Enneagram.

And so I wanted to do that for grief,

Because I couldn't believe no one had done it yet.

I was like,

There is space for this.

Because music is universal.

People hear it.

And it says things that,

Again,

Sometimes you yourself don't feel like you can convey.

And it's something that I wish I had had as a teen,

Someone who'd written songs,

Because that's how I would have understood it,

Because I like music.

So yeah,

That was that was why I was like,

I feel like I have to do this.

And this is my way of giving back in a way to have like,

I,

Yeah,

I want to offer the security and safety that I have always longed for and craved when it came to my own,

When it comes to my own grief journey.

And creating them was a beautiful process.

It was hard.

Ironically,

It's not ironic,

You're probably gonna be like,

Totally makes sense.

But the hardest song to write was acceptance.

I think the easiest was depression for me.

And so even just kind of how I felt writing each song and so the productions very cinematic too.

So I wanted strings,

I wanted to sound like it could belong in a movie.

Because I mean,

I don't know,

I don't know if everybody's like this,

But sometimes life feels a little bit like a movie.

Yes.

So I wanted,

I wanted that to feel that way,

Especially with like the video element to kind of doing the same thing of like,

It's very story driven.

And yeah,

It's it's my artistic interpretation of,

Of grief and how I've experienced it and how others have conveyed to me that they've experienced it.

I love that too.

And I love that there's this acknowledgement of the five stages of the framework or the entry point.

But it's not like,

You must listen in this order or you must have experienced grief in this order.

Because I know grief growers,

A lot of people listening who picked up on the fact that this was five stages at the beginning of the call when I introduced Frankie is,

Oh,

I don't believe in that.

That's not for me.

And it's a big conversation that's inhabiting the grief space.

But I love this because even Elizabeth Kubler Ross herself talked about the five stages as buckets that we rotate between all the time until we die.

Instead of,

You know,

A process that you go through,

And then there's an endpoint of acceptance.

But I hear you in that acceptance is the hardest thing to write.

Because how do you write acceptance when you still haven't entirely accepted yet?

That's that the tug of war between the eternal and the reality of death?

Yes,

Yes,

Absolutely.

And I think that's where acceptance for me writing that was an acknowledgement that I am probably going to go back and forth between anger,

Bargaining,

Depression,

Denial,

Like it's gonna be an ongoing thing for the rest of my life.

Grief has become a part of my life.

And that is like accepting,

It's accepting that.

And so the chorus of that song,

There's a line that I wrote that says,

My hope is still healing,

Just have to breathe in and breathe out.

So it's,

It's not an acceptance of like,

Okay,

Well,

I'm done with that.

It's like,

Actually,

I'm gonna need a process of healing,

Like my person,

Like,

I'm gonna be healing for the rest of my life.

And that's beautiful.

And I can accept that.

Like,

I can't maybe there are other things I can't accept right now.

But I can accept that I am healing and moving forward each day.

And someday then be moved backwards.

And that's okay.

There's grace for that.

And I think that's so true for me.

Also,

My hope is still healing.

Like,

I think we we hope before loss,

Because we're told to,

Like,

Of course,

We would have hope.

And then something like hope shatters loss,

And we have to learn how to hope again,

Or learn to get back to your words about,

You know,

Being able to have faith,

Again,

Is extremely,

Extremely difficult.

And we learn hope,

Faith,

Joy,

As skills and as practices as opposed to the default manufacturer settings,

You know,

Yeah,

Absolutely.

There's,

There's almost Wow,

I have to shift this from something I used to do all the time without thinking about it to something that I practice doing.

Yeah.

And there's a real there's a strain in that.

And then there's also a very real beauty in that because when you do feel it again,

Or when hope enters the picture again,

It's like,

And this is a little rugged Americanism of me,

But like,

I earned it.

You know,

It's been so long since I since I've seen you.

Thank you for being here.

I think I've earned you.

Yeah.

And it's not that it's not that hope is not free.

I think it's free and accessible to everybody.

But in order to learn how to tap into it again,

We do have to do a lot of a lot of healing.

Yeah.

And the aftermath of loss and it's ongoing.

I just love so much how that resonates in your work.

Reviews

Excellent discourse of brief. I agree completely. Namaste.