050 Devotion, Bali, Night Kings Feat. Summer Engman

Summer is a photographer and all around creative cat. We used to host a radio show about dating in Brooklyn. Now we meet in various parts of the world and do radio-like things. In this episode Summer analyzes my relationship tendencies. We also theorize about this season of Game of Thrones as a metaphor for life.

Transcript

This is episode 50 of the podcast,

The Ruondo podcast,

Now part of the Gotham Podcast Studios Network,

Has made it to 50 episodes.

And I was thrilled to be joined by my longtime radio buddy Summer Engman.

Summer and I used to host a radio show back in Brooklyn called The 60 Minute Orgasm.

And you may have called her on episode 36 of the Ruondo podcast back when we were in Cuba,

Talking about relationship things,

Masculinity,

Archetypes,

All sorts of fun stuff.

And we continued the conversation in Bali,

That's where I am right now.

And this one was a little different in that it was kind of introspective for me.

I was almost,

She was almost coaching me in a sense about my relationship tendencies.

But something I've been realizing lately is I've invested a lot of my energy and attention in learning things like seduction and connection and these like,

These things which are great and important in relating.

But one of the themes of this episode was coming up recognizing the importance of devotion,

Which is something I've not paid attention to.

And we also threw in a little bit about Game of Thrones.

Don't worry,

There's no spoilers in here,

Just a little bit of a life metaphor analysis.

So if you enjoy,

Right now you're listening to episode 050,

Night King Devotion in Bali with Summer Engman.

You're listening to the Ruondo podcast,

Perpetual Orgasm,

Infinite Play.

Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show.

All right,

We're eating chocolate.

We're in Bali.

I made a giant pot of chocolate.

For lunch.

It's so good.

Yeah,

It's like,

It's a bunch of cacao butter,

Half a dragon fruit,

One pisang,

Which is a banana,

A little bit of sugar,

And a ton of cacao powder.

We're talking about Game of Thrones.

I'm here with Summer Eggman.

Summer Eggman.

Smooth.

Well,

Yeah.

So,

Rowan is having a little bit of a day of it.

Of chocolate?

No.

Oh,

I'm like kind of depressed.

Well,

First you said you were sad,

And then you were like,

Well,

Not really sad.

I'm just sort of depressed and like not really sad about it.

Yeah,

Kind of.

Yeah,

Like the literal word of,

Like not the clinical term,

But like I feel like depressed,

Like physically like down.

Like my neurotransmitters and all that science stuff is like depressed,

You know what I mean?

Yeah,

I can talk about that.

Oh,

And one theory is that I did mushrooms four days ago,

And I'm just like having a long extended hangover.

Oh,

It's kind of like you were talking about with alcohol.

Yeah.

So,

No matter whether you drink for a week or drink for a day,

You still have three days of blase after getting drunk.

Yeah,

Which is why if I drink,

I just keep going for a while,

Which is why I don't do it.

Yeah.

Well,

That's why because I did the smallest amount of mushrooms ever did.

It was like a little more than a microdose,

But I barely tripped.

And I think that's why I'm confused because if I tripped balls on Saturday- Then it would have been like,

Well,

Obviously this is because of that.

Right.

Well,

I wouldn't even be thinking about that.

I'm not debating and thinking about my life,

But I had a very,

Very light trip.

So,

I kind of just wanted to get back into life,

And I just feel so depleted and like apathetic.

You got to just go all the way next time.

Yeah,

I didn't want to go all the way.

I was kind of tripping a little bit to support my friend Ashmeel who wanted to have a deeper trip.

I was kind of just like she was processing and like tripping,

And I was just like in the room just hanging out.

Like,

Oh,

She's dealing with some shit.

Look at that.

I'm just here.

Yeah,

So yeah,

That's where I'm at right now.

And it's just like I've been thinking about like trying to open my heart,

But it's kind of like in my goal right now.

And it keeps coming up like I just am not like totally on earth.

I went to erotic contact dance yesterday and I was so- Oh,

How was that?

It was actually a well-held event.

It was actually a really well-done event.

So basically it was contact improv with the encouragement to be sexual,

Unlike a normal contact where you're not supposed to be.

So it was kind of cool.

That's a hard event to hold,

So it must have been a really good facilitator.

Yeah,

It was a good facilitator.

I was impressed actually.

I was impressed by- What did you learn?

Oh,

Actually I learned some micro things about how to like touch in a space like that,

Because normally I'm like very gentle in touch.

And in this framework,

Everyone's kind of going like straight to fast.

Really?

Yeah.

So I actually felt like I was falling behind everyone because I was doing things slowly and like making sure,

Because I was doing things as if sex wasn't on the table already.

Here we are back to consent.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I was- My favorite topic.

So if you caught my last episode somewhere back when we were in Cuba- I have evolved my position even from there,

Which was already obviously evolved.

Clearly you're evolved.

Let's talk about consent.

But just to finish this thought- Yes,

Please.

I realized I was going too slow because I was acting as if sex wasn't on the table.

So I was like touching in a way that was checking for consent in a way that I actually think was kind of boring to some people,

Because they wanted to go to red right away.

But the truth is the way I was feeling,

It was like I was so not into getting sweaty and intimate with random people.

I don't know if that's a phase of life or just this post-mushroom phase.

That's just where I'm at right now.

Sometimes that's where I'm at.

So I totally get that.

Like,

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I feel like you and I both are a little bit outside of this typical consent conversation that a lot of people are having in these circles that we- Yeah.

You think it was because of oming?

Because of orgasm meditation?

I know that I went through a period of time after orgasm meditation where I was dabbling in the consent conversation,

Where I was getting more nuanced with the consent conversation and really wanting to feel held there.

I'm just going to come out and say it.

I do think that a lot of the consent conversation revolves around how to work around people's trauma.

Yeah.

And it's like if you have trauma,

You need the consent,

Right?

Or you need- Do you mind if I post this?

I don't like that.

Okay.

All right.

Thanks for having good boundaries.

Just kidding.

Keep going.

That's a thing people say.

Thanks for having good boundaries.

And there was a time when people would say that to me.

I was like,

No,

Thanks for having good boundaries.

I would feel so relieved because I needed that.

I needed somebody to appreciate my boundaries because I had been in a lot of situations where people didn't appreciate my boundaries or where I was guilt tripped or whatever for- Let's be honest.

Okay.

I didn't have boundaries.

So I was just having these internal stopping points,

Which I didn't respect.

And people were running past them.

And then this created the impression in my experience,

In my mind,

In my body that people don't want my boundaries,

Don't respect my boundaries,

But it stems from the fact that I actually didn't have them to begin with.

Right.

So it's like I don't- I'm not a grown up there.

I'm not empowered there.

And so the way that anybody interacts with me there is they're interacting with somebody who's disempowered,

Who's not a grown up.

Right.

And how can you win?

Like the only way for you to win there is to like hold back,

Is to- And in some cases with people who have been really,

Really skillful is to like be really agile with what's happening between you and being able to like respond rightly and being able to check and being able to feel the signals before I felt them.

Like somebody else can feel my signals.

But ultimately that is a very small window.

And past that window,

I end up feeling patronized and disempowered by people's need to protect me all the time from my own lack of boundaries.

So there's just like there's so many like stages to pass through,

I think,

If you are coming from a wounded space.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was actually hanging out with this woman who was very not- like she's not very experienced.

She's very not clear with her yeses or noes.

So I was checking in the way I always have felt is the right thing,

Especially with such a woman,

Like really check in.

Are you sure this is OK?

Is this whatever?

And at some point she was just like,

Stop asking me if things are OK.

Yeah.

Like I was like,

Well,

Anyway,

We came to the agreement that if something's not OK,

She'll tell me and I can just trust her there and I'll just do it.

Feels right to me until then.

Yeah.

And it was such a relief.

Yeah.

Well,

The thing is,

And I think that a woman like that would feel comfortable with you making that agreement with you because she actually trusts your energy already.

Like you demonstrated to her that like you can feel those places or that you care or whatever.

And so she's like,

I don't need you to keep asking me like I'll tell you.

But whereas somebody who would like mow over her,

She might actually feel frozen in that spot and not be able to like voice it.

Yeah.

That's an interesting like sub thing in the communicate in the consent discussion,

Whereas part of it is just wanting to know the person is not an asshole.

Yeah.

You don't actually need to be checked in with every time.

That's actually like so much of it.

As soon as I know that you're not an asshole and that like you care about my experience at all.

I'm like so much.

I'm just like so much at ease.

Yeah.

Are you familiar with Betty Martin's real consent?

No.

That's like one of the things people talk about.

Like,

So she breaks down consent.

She breaks down touch into like four quadrants.

There's giving,

Allowing,

Taking and something I forget.

But basically there's two dynamics.

There's like the servicing and accepting.

And then there's the taking and allowing.

And I was just in a workshop where they were teaching this and they're putting people into the categories.

Like what the what's the place you're most comfortable in?

And almost everyone,

Every single person with nice guy syndrome or like people pleasers all go into the servicing role.

Like I'm here for you.

But it's like it's like kind of slimy for a lot of people.

Yeah.

And like I was one of the fewer people who are in the taking role who I kind of I admit that I have the most fun when I'm taking touch.

Yeah.

And like they had it like this.

But I was realizing like,

Oh,

This is something I think maybe is unique to the own orgasm meditation culture,

Which is that they didn't use that system at all.

It was taking and accepting.

Like they had this premise that if you are taking with full attention,

Like you're doing things selfishly for full attention,

Stroking for your pleasure was the term.

You're actually doing the best thing for the other person.

Which is definitely not accepted by most people.

But I do think that's true if you're if you're synced up with someone.

I absolutely feel that.

Yeah.

There's it's interesting as I've kind of moved forward in this consent sort of invest.

I'm just investigation for my own exploration inquiry inquiry.

Sorry.

For myself,

I find more and more like.

If a man tells me he respects me,

I'm like,

I'm like,

I feel so patronized by that.

I'm like,

I can feel if you respect,

I can feel for your stuff.

I don't care if you I don't I don't want like I don't I don't need that assurance.

What I want to know is like,

Do you adore me?

Like,

I want to know that you seriously enjoy me,

That you enjoy watching me,

That you enjoy.

Do you want him to say that?

I want him to express it sometimes.

Yeah,

I like that he expresses that.

So so just to put this like on a map,

Like so the respecting thing,

You don't need to hear it from them because you can feel it.

Right.

Well,

It's not that I don't need to hear it for them because I can feel it.

I don't need to hear it from them because I'm a grown because I'm an adult and I don't I don't.

I don't I don't require that somebody respects me in order for us to go forward.

But do you think that probably what hasn't been true your whole life?

It hasn't been true my whole life at all.

Like I definitely needed.

There was a point where,

Like,

Maybe I didn't respect me or something.

I don't not speaking for other people.

Like,

I think respect is very important.

And I think that I think that for a lot of people,

Sexual encounters are like really all about like it.

It's founded on mutual respect.

And I do think like that's the best stuff.

And for the most part in my experience is that men do respect me.

Like it's not even it's not even a thing.

Like if you have to tell me that you respect me,

I actually think you don't.

Yeah.

Like I think if you if you're telling me that you respect me,

It's most likely that you you don't see me as somebody who can handle her own.

So that means you don't respect me.

Possibly.

Possibly.

Yeah.

Well,

It's kind of like it's this quote I love from Zen,

The art of motorcycle maintenance.

No one is proclaiming that the sun's going to come up tomorrow.

Right.

It's like if something's obvious,

You don't have to say it.

Right.

But I'm just wondering is if you think there'll be a phase in your life where you don't even need to be adored to move forward.

Because we'll just be like,

Maybe you adore yourself.

I'm already in that phase,

Too.

I don't need to be adored to move forward either.

OK.

But if I were going to choose between the two,

I prefer adoration.

What's the next phase like from respect to adoration to like.

Devotion.

OK.

Devotion.

But if someone said I am devoted to you,

That would probably be a little corny.

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

OK.

No,

Not no,

Not if they're like no,

Not if they're like a legit fucking man and they're like,

I'm devoted to you.

The hottest thing you could possibly do if they're like nice guy syndrome guy and then they're like devoted to you.

And there's no good reason why they're devoted to you.

Like I need to I like to earn that devotion for me.

Like I need them to demonstrate if they're if they want to be devoted to me,

They need to demonstrate why I'm worth it to them.

Otherwise,

I'm like.

Why?

Like,

You don't you just devote yourself to like anyone like you know what I mean?

It doesn't mean anything to me.

In fact,

It does mean something.

It means it means that I can't trust you.

Like I don't trust your reasons for why you admire me or want me in your life or why we're doing this whole thing.

Like.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Like their bar for devotion is very low.

Right.

And like devoted to yourself first,

Please.

Like,

You know.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I'm working all this stuff out right now.

I do think some people do need like do feel the need to say,

Hey,

I just want to make it really clear that I respect you.

In a certain context,

In that context where I where I understand like and respect that they do,

That is the context where they're like talking to you like you're dirty whore and like and like and like saying like I want to fucking own you and control you.

Because then it can be in doubt.

And that because because doubt can be introduced in that where it's like like it's not even that doubt is introduced.

It's that you like it's the having the conversation about like I do respect you and here's why balances out the like dirty whore play so that you don't so that you don't go into feeling possibly like,

Oh,

This is what this whole relationship is about.

This is what our play is about.

It's just about,

You know,

Objectification and all the best ways.

But that's all it's about.

So like bringing that in on the other side,

Like balances it.

Although you could do that just as easily with behavior where you treat the person with that respect.

Yeah.

What's coming up for me now is like I kind of want to be devoted to a person.

And I never do that.

You never do what?

I don't vote and I don't do vote.

Yeah.

Because like someone actually told me someone like a lover who I was playing with was saying like,

I really feel your DOM.

Your dominance in bed,

Which was like validating in a way because that's something I've been insecure about much of my life.

But I realized that it's kind of not all I've been kind of like working towards this thing,

Which maybe is not that like basically I'm in a place right now where I feel like me seducing or doing sex skills or anything like that is like kind of taking away from the experience I want to have.

And maybe I need to devote more.

I think it's the hottest thing is honestly so hot.

There's always another thing.

It's just it's just funny because when I was learning like empathy,

I was like learning empathy and learning how to like feel and like be a good person.

And I remember hearing from people,

We got to be more dominant.

I was like,

What?

I was learning empathy.

Yeah.

Tell me to be dominant.

I find I learn dominance and the house like devotion.

What's the next thing summer?

Once I learned devotion,

I was like,

You got to learn fucking.

I don't know.

I'm not there yet.

I'm I'm I'm at devotion right now.

It's a never ending story,

I think.

But it's like,

Do you know what it is to be devoted?

Like,

Do you even know what that looks like?

Not coming out of me.

Yeah.

What do you think it looks like coming out of others?

Do you have a model?

I'm thinking of someone who we both know who I dated who had this whole who wrote this whole poem about devotion in our relationship.

And I couldn't relate to it.

I kind of felt embarrassed that she was so devoted to me or she proclaimed devotion to me because I didn't I I just couldn't access that at the time.

What was the flavor of it?

That was that didn't connect the didn't connect to like she was willing to sacrifice everything for our love,

Which seemed ridiculous.

Devotion.

What's the motion?

Devotion is like.

There's some different elements to it.

It's it's like you can't you can't call sacrificing everything devotion.

It's devotion is when you.

You actually have to have a level of fullness.

You have to have a level of like you have to be complete in order to devote to somebody to be devoted to somebody.

Otherwise,

You're like a martyr or like,

You know,

You're.

Yeah.

So you have you have to you have to have like a fullness.

You have to have abundance like you already have to be full and whole.

And then it's like then it's like an out actually have all of this.

Where the fuck do I put it?

And then it's like I vetted you.

You've got you.

You touch something deep in me that I've been longing to have touched.

It's like so precious that you got there.

I want to give you every I want to give you everything I have that I have like abundance of and that I have extra of.

Yeah,

I feel like that when I don't ejaculate for a long time.

I just want to love somebody.

I like such a surplus of juju in me.

Not right now.

Yeah,

But I mean,

That's like the physical.

Yeah,

I think it's like,

You know,

It's yeah,

It's the physical element for dudes.

Yeah,

That's actually one of the you know,

Because like there's a lot of it's kind of hard to there's a lot of people especially the spiritual world who'd say like ejaculation controls this and there's not a lot of evidence for it.

One thing I'm sure of though,

Is that when you don't come for a while and you've been aroused you really want to pay attention to the woman you're with in a way that like you're just interested in her in a way that is not the case after you've come or becoming a lot interesting.

Yeah.

That's so interesting.

Yeah,

I don't I don't know that I totally relate with that as a woman like it was different course.

Yeah.

I can tell you that there are certain men that have the quality of devotion,

Whether it's towards me or not.

I can feel it and I know that they're available for it with the birth with somebody that inspires them in a certain way.

And it's not just that you inspire them by being impressive or having like amazing sex skills or whatever.

It's that like I've I've never had I've never had a man be devoted to me in any way unless I was unless I fucking melted for him.

Unless I just completely like gave him the vulnerability inside of me.

You surrendered.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Like and that and and as long as we're stuck in a gridlock where like we want to get something from each other and like this this happens all the time.

Like I sense this happened to me recently.

Like I sense this guy was not available for this thing,

But like I was like you should be because this would be really great.

And I was like wanted to like I wanted to somehow prove or like show or I wanted like I wanted to lock pick him.

That would that's never going to get me or any woman what she wants.

You have to like be generous.

You have to like you have to be like soft and and and subtle and like available and like caring and all these things.

And you have to be selfless in a certain way that you're not out for your own of like,

What's my agenda and how do I get it out of him?

Because then when he comes to you and he's like,

OK,

Fine,

You're going to be like,

It doesn't feel good.

Yeah.

And so it's just it's just different like it.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with that particular thought.

That model does not work.

And that's what we mostly do.

Yeah.

We try to like strategize.

We try to strategize.

How do I get this guy to see that he'd be happier if he was devoted to me?

This is what women do.

I think this is what I've been doing,

Too,

Which is why I'm feeling like a lot of and I'm grateful for everything that I've done.

And I'm happy to have the skills I have.

But I feel like I've been everything I've been doing and dating and relating is like in some way a strategy to be liked.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah.

And my my my heart isn't always in it in a way I want it to be.

Are you strategizing for how to be devoted?

No.

Maybe to get devotion or to get a.

I'm going to strategize on how to be devoted.

Who was that look like?

How do I be devoted?

Yeah.

Well,

That's really it,

Because I do think you're going to get the most out of women when you are devoted.

Well,

It's like.

When you say that,

Get the most out of women,

I feel a little contraction because I feel like you're just getting the most beautiful version of them.

You're not going to get them to stop doing what they're doing or stop fucking other men or you're going to get them to to.

Follow your feet.

Well,

You might,

But like.

You're not going to get something out of them.

You're going to you're like your devotion is going to blossom her to such an extent that you've never seen a woman like that.

Like you've never seen a woman feel so.

Like,

Appreciated and just soft and like really receptive and.

Adoring of you,

But not in like a,

Oh,

Like I,

I'm obsessed with you.

I adore you.

But like,

Actually,

Just like a kind,

Just such a kind,

Deep love.

Like you've never gotten that from a woman until you,

Until you have shown her that like,

That she deserves everything.

Men don't understand,

Like men,

A lot of men.

I really think like a lot of men just don't understand.

It's not easy,

But it is simple.

It's a simple thing of how you get the best out of women.

Like she'll show him in like,

She won't have anything to complain to you about.

Like,

Seriously.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

This last couple of days have been like a reconfiguring of my thoughts because like this lover I was with a couple of days ago,

She said afterwards,

We had a very fun time,

But she was like,

I'm very impressed by your skills.

And that kind of hurt to hear it.

And I was like,

Well,

I don't want you to,

I don't want to impress you.

I mean,

Like it's validating to my ego,

But I feel like,

Well,

That means we're not really on the same,

We're not in the same,

We're not connected.

We're not in the same place.

Like you're,

You're like looking at me and you're impressed as opposed to us being like,

Yeah.

Deepened intimacy.

I could.

Yeah.

I don't think you could have impressed and devoted at the same time.

Oh,

They look a little bit similar.

I think you could.

I think you could be,

I mean,

I imagine having such the utmost respect for the man who I feel devoted with.

I don't have to ponder this,

But a lot of the respect that I would have,

Like the things that I respect most in a man are his devotion.

It's like the top,

Like that will get me,

That will really get me.

Another is his integrity.

That will really get to me and his honor.

Like they're kind of in the same and like his service.

It's not like I'm impressed with,

I'm also impressed with like his attention,

Like his ability to,

To feel and like that's like a skill for sure.

I think him just being a man whose heart is available is the most impressive thing.

It's like rare.

Because you have these guys who are like,

They want a relationship,

They want to pour it all out to you.

It doesn't mean their heart's like actually available.

It's probably got a lot of times,

It's got a lot of like,

When am I going to get mine,

Like in the way.

And yeah,

And that doesn't,

Doesn't last for very long.

It doesn't work very well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Being deja vu.

From Cuba?

No,

Just like,

Like this moment in reality.

I feel like I've learned this lesson before.

Huh.

I don't know that I have.

I mean,

Not in this lifetime.

I mean,

Like,

Deja vu.

I feel like,

You know,

I'm remembering this moment that I've done already.

Yeah,

It's such a,

Such a thing.

Yeah.

That said,

I do kind of wanted to drink ramen smoke cigars with you right now.

Flashback.

Flashback.

Oh yeah.

I have some cigars.

Yeah,

I'll come visit you on the beach.

We could have a cigar and maybe a glass of rum.

I can't drink any rum.

No,

Not even just a little bit?

No,

No,

No.

I think I'm off the alcohol.

For now.

Oh,

Okay.

But if it was a week,

You'd be down.

Maybe that might be worth it.

Three days down for a week of fun.

Yeah,

And I can't drink for a week.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What else do we have to talk about?

Game of Thrones.

No,

I don't know if I want to talk about Game of Thrones in this podcast.

What do I really say about that?

Oh,

Well anyway,

The theory of the Night King winning.

Oh yeah.

I was like,

I think it wouldn't make any sense for anybody else to win,

But the Night King.

Well,

I think I like that.

And if you don't watch Game of Thrones,

Sorry.

I'm just going to boil this down to a philosophical point.

But the whole idea of the Game of Thrones is that you're playing for power and you're playing all these finite games against other people that seem to matter.

But in the end,

Death comes for everybody.

None of it matters.

I would like that to be the end of Game of Thrones.

I think that would be a nice lesson.

Because I was just,

Actually my last Tinder date was telling me how the original Pinocchio had a sad ending.

Like Pinocchio actually dies.

Oh.

And Pinocchio is originally a serial in a newspaper.

And like all of Italy was like reading Pinocchio and became like a national hero.

Every week a new episode would come out and then Pinocchio died and the country went up in uproar because they wanted a happy ending.

And then they rewrote it that's closer to the Disney.

What happens again?

Does he get to be a real boy?

He gets to be a real boy,

Of course.

In the Disney version he does.

Oh,

Okay.

But in the original version he dies.

And the lesson was like,

You don't always get what you want even if you do the right thing.

Which is not a popular lesson,

But nowadays maybe that's the lesson people want in Game of Thrones.

Game of Thrones doesn't give us the lesson we want,

It gives us the lesson we need.

Global warming.

Is that what that is?

Is that what the Night King represents?

Is that a theory that exists already?

Yeah.

Yeah,

I didn't come up with that.

Oh,

Okay.

No.

Not at all.

Climate change.

Climate change.

Oh,

Yeah.

Well obviously winter's coming.

Yeah.

Not global warming.

Summer's coming for all of us.

Are we getting finger tattoos?

So,

Ruann and I were talking about getting tattoos of heart on our middle fingers.

Which I love that idea.

And I love the idea as well.

But.

.

.

It definitely seemed.

.

.

I do feel a little resistance to it now.

We talked about it two weeks ago and it seemed like a great idea.

I was ready to get it on the spot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I wanted to check in with my ex who I was going to get that tattoo with.

Yeah.

And who got it.

I did wonder,

Does that bond you and me in a way that's beyond the level of our friendship?

If we get matching tattoos.

It's kind of like a best friends forever thing.

And I think we'll be friends forever.

Well,

Yeah.

I mean,

Is it really fitting for the nature of our friendship?

Yeah.

For us to get matching tattoos?

Yeah.

Well,

Yeah.

Because.

.

.

But I'll tell you,

I want more friends in my life that I have matching tattoos with.

So,

Why not start with you?

Okay.

Well,

That's what I was thinking.

If there's a third person.

.

.

Because I'm sure both you and I.

.

.

It's like too intimate.

It's a little too intimate.

Because both you and I probably have closer friends than each other.

Yeah.

Like,

You and I don't actually talk that much.

No,

We don't.

But I will say that whenever I see you,

Like,

We have the funnest talks and I just fucking love you.

I love you too.

Okay.

All right.

Let's get them.

Let's get the tattoos.

Let's do it.

Yeah.

But it'd be great to have a lot of people.

Because actually I do think that's a type of.

.

.

Well,

That was the original idea.

Is that,

Like,

Let's recruit all of our friends to get the same tattoo.

It's like the perfect tattoo that everybody can get that's not,

Like,

Too big of a deal.

But it's,

Like,

Really clever and amazing.

So,

For everyone listening,

We're going to get a simple heart on the left middle finger,

Which can mean a lot of things.

But it's like.

.

.

To me it means.

.

.

I fucking love you.

Yeah.

Or like.

.

.

Fuck you.

I love you.

Fuck you,

But you can't take me seriously because I'm not really mad.

Yeah.

I love you even though I disapprove of the behavior that you're doing.

Yeah.

Or like every time I'm angry,

Actually just fucking love.

Yeah.

Love.

My other concern with the tattoo is that I don't think I've ever flipped anyone off with my left hand.

That's always the right hand.

That's true.

We're getting to the right hand.

Yeah.

But I think I want other tattoos on my right hand.

I don't know.

Well.

.

.

I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Left hand actually feels right.

I just have to get used to this action.

The only thing is it's going to be right next to your ring finger if you ever get married.

Well,

I think if I get married or something like that,

Hand-fested or something hippie like that.

.

.

You're going to have to get the tattoo as well.

Well,

I'm going to.

.

.

Welcome to the family.

I'm going to tattoo my ring finger instead of a ring.

Oh,

Right.

Yeah.

Because that will show devotion.

Yeah.

I don't know that that.

.

.

Yeah.

It's a romantic symbol that you can use to show devotion.

Yeah.

Okay.

I know what I want to talk about.

Do we still have time?

Yeah.

Plenty of time.

For the rest of our lives.

I want to talk about romance.

Okay.

Because this was a.

.

.

This romance was this idea that in our lineage and one taste.

.

.

It's been really criticized and made fun of.

Yeah.

Because Nicole would always say.

.

.

Nicole,

Our cult leader,

Would say people spend their orgasm,

Which is like their chi,

People spend their energy on romance or finance.

Yeah.

Or like either romance or finance will take you out from your path towards freedom.

Yeah.

And I don't.

.

.

What the.

.

.

So it's in some ways,

It's a matter of semantics.

Like what does romance mean?

Does it mean long walks on the beach?

Or does it mean grand gestures?

Or does it mean candlelit dinners?

To me,

That's not.

.

.

Well,

Grand gestures,

Yes.

Yeah.

Well,

I'll say the legitimate side of her.

.

.

Because I mean everything that she taught,

Everything in one taste that was manipulative had a nugget of truth.

Oh,

Yeah.

So much of this stuff.

I still use like 80%.

Yeah.

I mean,

I learned a lot of great stuff that I look like.

Like one of the things you notice in the OM community,

So someone would come in,

They'd be super turned off and like kind of a cold fish.

They'd start oming,

They'd become all lit up and like juicy and sexy and magnetic.

And then they would take all of that juice in them and put it on one person in a relationship and be a very obsessive relationship as opposed to continue to grow as an individual.

Yeah.

So in that way,

Romance did take them off their path.

Oh,

Romance?

I mean,

It can.

Like,

And the other thing is like a lot of people get really caught up in.

.

.

And it's not maybe like,

I don't know exactly what the connection is.

I'm just like making the connection at the moment.

But,

You know,

We have a lot of hormones.

We have like a lot of things that happen when we,

You know,

When we're in a mating ritual to make us have sex and be bonded so that we will take care of our babies.

It's like the fourth time we brought a mating ritual this week.

Yeah.

Well,

I'm thinking a lot about mating ritual because I have a friend who I talk about it with constantly.

Anyway,

So you get all these hormones and all these neurotransmitters,

Whatever.

I don't know what they are.

Chemicals in your body.

And oxytocin.

And they make you feel like this person is the person.

And this connection is the connection.

Everything is amazing.

And you lose sight of,

Well,

You know,

Sooner or later soon,

The hormones will start to wear off.

You have to really have a strong bond.

You have to have other values aligned.

You have to like have devotion.

You have to do good communication and all these things which people don't put in place because they.

.

.

It's not just young people.

Like,

Seriously,

Like sometimes it's people who are like in their 50s and still haven't learned that like,

No,

Like this wave that you're on is a wave and it's going to reach the shore and then you're going to have to walk and it's going to,

You know,

A good continuation of the metaphor.

Yeah.

And I just came up with that.

Nice.

And so they don't,

They don't prepare.

So like they get really caught up in this whirlwind and they fall really,

Really hard.

And in that way,

Like,

Is that,

But is that romance or is that just a chemical high that people are not paying attention to and like being realistic about,

You know,

And partly maybe romance comes in and we're like,

When we feel that inspired and when we feel like that excited and you know,

We're falling in love,

We want to do all these like things.

I think the thing about romance that people that like people like Nicole are kind of against,

I don't know if Nicole gives a fuck about this,

But other people are against is that like we stop doing those things that we did in the beginning.

We stopped doing them when we stopped having those same feelings.

So like we don't continue the romance.

I actually think romance is one of the things that makes like partnership fun without it.

I don't want partnership.

I want,

I want this person to like,

Surprise me and like do something.

I want this person to show up for me in a way that like shows me that they like really care that they trust me or that like,

I want,

I want like gestures.

I want gestures throughout the rest of my life.

If I'm going to be with somebody for the rest of my life,

You know,

If that's the case,

Even if I,

Even if it's short,

I enjoy when,

When somebody like I enjoy when a man takes great care and like sets things up,

I just,

I just have an issue with it when they stop doing that at a certain point.

So do you have anything?

I mean,

I've never had a long-term relationship.

Cause like if I'm honest,

I've never had an anniversary I've come close.

Flowers and chocolate.

Like I mean like that,

Sorry,

If you that's romance to somebody,

Then they're not my person.

No,

No.

Yeah.

And I get it.

And I actually know about myself and maybe this is like my avoidance or whatever.

Once the honeymoon high is over,

I kind of find it hard to stay like that.

I guess maybe cause I can't access that devotion that we're talking about.

But,

But if I look back,

I also don't know who would I wanted to stay with.

I don't know.

I don't know if well,

Ruan,

We make our connections amazing by the attention.

And you said that a bit of a patronizing way,

Just a little bit.

Oh,

Not at all.

No.

No,

I think the only,

The only like,

Nobody's going to hold your attention forever.

If like you don't make them amazing with your quality of attention,

You make a partnership amazing.

It's about what you bring to it.

It's about like,

You're,

You can be excited about what this other person's doing.

It's like thrilling and it's amazing.

And you can be like grateful for it and really have a lot of reverence for the way that they approach the relationship.

But I think really it's the way that you show up to a relationship that really inspires you.

Like,

Or for me,

I'll say for me,

It's the way that when I am showing up in a way that inspires me,

That I feel proud of,

You know,

Like,

And I,

And then I'm received,

Which is like part of it.

I love.

And there's always more,

There's like,

You never get to a point where the intimacy is like gotten as intimate as it's going to get.

And like those hormones go away,

But like continuing to like get into those spots.

Like I've had it before where I was like fucking over somebody like,

And then for some reason or another,

We got into a spot where I was just like,

I'm like this thing I've never really been fully honest about,

Like that I didn't even realize I wasn't being honest about now.

I'm going to like,

I'm actually going to like lay it out there and I'm going to be vulnerable and honest there.

Then that sensation comes back.

I mean,

This is,

It's,

It's been kind of amazing for me to watch this.

Like if I feel like I'm getting bored,

I just have to be courageous and I'm not bored anymore.

I just have to like go out on the next limb and then I'm not bored anymore.

And there's always going to be more limbs.

Like it never stops.

There's always in the beginning,

It's so fun because there's all of these like little limbs that you're going out on and all these little like places like are they going to meet me?

Like,

Oh,

They did.

Oh my God.

You know,

Like,

And then you get comfortable in the relationship and you stop stretching yourself.

And then for me the biggest reason why I ever want to break up with anybody.

It's the only reason really that I've ever wanted to break up with anybody is that I felt wasted on them.

That I didn't,

I wasn't being my best self.

And I actually it's always because I got myself into a situation where like I hadn't been honest enough in the beginning or I hadn't been me enough in the beginning,

But it was just too big of a thing for me to finally be me.

So like I couldn't actually make the turn or I could have,

But it was too disastrous or I thought it was.

If you,

If I steadily am always carving out space for me to be fully me and then I can continue to do that and all the places that are uncomfortable where the shame comes up and all this stuff.

So thrilling,

But I haven't been successful at it.

So I've gotten glimpses of it.

I've gotten glimpses of it.

Like that is the key.

I know it is.

I really know it is.

And I think I'm learning that.

I recently had like a really hot thing transition into a really good friendship.

And that friendship for me is still just as valuable as it was as like a romantic thing.

Cause like we continue that thing.

And so to not even have like sex involved,

But just like that,

Like there's a searing,

Like about the,

Like the honesty and the thing,

It's just still thrilling.

So it's like just many little things that we believe that that's the key.

So I'm going to give that a try next time.

Yeah.

I'm going to give it a try too.

How to be over.

I like that there's audio editing.

Oh no,

I don't edit anything.

Oh no,

Not at all.

But one,

I don't feel like listening to my podcast again.

Cause I was there the first time.

And yeah,

I like to listen to everything over again.

I love it.

Yeah.

And I feel like I don't have time for that.

I also have tons of typos and everything I publish because of that.

Yeah.

I'm like a re-reader I reread text threads.

It's always actually fine.

People say that text is not like the greatest medium for communicating.

And I disagree because I'll reread a text thread and like I'll have been so present.

I'll feel like I'm in this moment with this person that I'm in this text and that we're like talking about the same thing,

Actually texts,

Like honestly,

Text,

Text messages and threads involved with them and looking back and all that has led me to believe we are all profoundly alone because I can't tell you how many times I've been in this like text out of somebody.

I think we're like meeting of minds and we're talking about the same thing.

And I look over it later and I realized like,

I read that those two words in the wrong and something totally different.

And then I'm like,

I completely missed them and I never recovered from that.

Like I never actually plugged back into the thing that they were saying.

They must not have even felt hurt or received.

They ever go back and back,

Hey,

Back in July,

2018.

No,

No,

No.

Cause I read them like right after.

Okay.

Well,

I,

I've thought a lot about how like if you ever watch like old documentaries and they're like,

They have like Abraham Lincoln,

Like with a letter,

Like do your Abigail,

Whatever.

Like they're going to do that with our text message threads.

Like when they do bio pics in the future,

It's like,

And then summer texted Rwanda.

What's the courage to exchange rates letters to a young poet,

But text messages,

I can't tell you there's so much fucking amazing philosophy in my text messages.

I have like these,

I have to say like,

Not even,

Not from me specifically,

But like I have these,

I have like some amazing connections right now that are living far away from me where we talk about stuff that like,

I'm like,

I'm getting levels like deeper into my own psyche by like these conversations that are largely happening over text.

It's crazy.

I've been trying to avoid that kind of thing.

I want to find a communication.

Last year I FaceTime people.

Last year was my first year.

I really living nomadically and I FaceTime people a lot and I found myself like not really liking it at the end of the year.

Oh,

Like I felt like I'd rather do this with you.

Yeah,

I like that too,

But I don't really FaceTime anybody.

There's some people I do texts though.

I like text every day.

I mean,

That's a necessity.

I don't live next to everybody even more.

Yeah.

I kind of want to live next to people.

I don't live next to people more.

That's why I settled in Shanghai.

But even those people,

People are always moving around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It'd be nice to be in a relationship.

Maybe that's what I'll do this year.

Maybe I'll be my thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm there for it.

I'm down.

Yeah.

Well,

When you were going,

When you were living in Peru and like kind of settling down,

That was like my plan.

I was going to find a girlfriend and move to Peru and be neighbors.

Yeah.

That would have been fun.

We could do that somewhere.

Although,

Not really.

Well,

I mean,

It didn't,

Yeah.

But we could do that somewhere else.

That's the problem with nomadic people.

Like it's really fun to meet in random countries,

But I might not see you again for a long time.

Although I said that last time and here we are.

Here we are.

A few months later.

You know,

I mean,

Other people who are like on a mission to like see the world and do their thing.

Yes.

Me,

I'm very clear that like,

I'm willing to stop if I,

As soon as I find something compelling,

As soon as somebody invites me or,

Or I'm like a part of a thing that,

Um,

That like requires I be in one place,

I do not mind at all.

Yeah.

It's kind of where I'm going to go back to.

I don't feel any compulsion to see the world.

There's a couple more places I want to spend some time in,

But I've never spent any time in Europe.

You could just go at it.

He taught you to like be nomadic for that.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm ready to be in one place.

I don't feel like this jet setter.

Like I have to get on a plane again.

Like I need to,

I don't feel that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But here I am in Bali,

But I've been here for a while and I like it.

And I stay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the night King come for us all coming for us all.

So my name is to be devoted.

Any last thoughts?

Uh,

A million,

But let's not launch into something else.

Okay.

Uh,

Summer England photo.

Com in case anyone wants photos.

Oh no.

No.

Instagram.

Oh,

Follow summer England photo on his room.

Summer dot Hokulani H O K U L a N I.

You changed it again?

I did.

Oh man.

It's just better.

All right.

Goodbye.

Bye.

Hey,

Thanks for listening to the podcast.

If you want to catch the rest of my work,

Go to Luwando.

Com.

Catch me on social media,

At Luwando and please do not forget to subscribe.

Yeah.

Yeah.