074 Matt Cone: The Abundance Model

Matt Cone is a philanthropist and philosopher. Ruwan met Matt on a retreat in Thailand 2 years ago. He shared something called 'The Abundance Model', a philosophy and system for dealing with money. Ruwan was a bit skeptical at first, but practiced it anyway and found that 1) His wealth increased greatly and 2) He felt totally different about money. It's actually less about money and more about your view of the future.

This model has inspired today's episodes.

Please note: This episode may contain explicit language.

Transcript

Today's episode is brought to you by TheNeighborFund.

Com.

The Neighbor Fund is a crowd-directed charity.

Donors commit some amount per month.

It could be as low as 10 bucks a month.

And then you get a voting right to decide how that money is distributed to the categories of people,

Causes,

And magic every month.

And it doesn't matter how much you donate,

You get a vote.

This actually was created because of our guest and some other things.

But our guest today is Matt Cohen.

Matt has done a TED Talk.

He's a philanthropist.

I would call him a philanthropist.

He does many other things too.

Matt originated or was the first person to publicize the idea of the abundance model.

The abundance model is a way of looking at wealth and money.

And I actually met Matt here in Chiang Mai two years ago,

Almost two years ago to the week at the meeting of the master's retreat with Montauk Chia and the tantrum master Charles Muir.

I went two years ago out here on a one-way ticket.

I'd just gotten out of a relationship.

I was like,

Ah,

One-way ticket.

I'll hang out there for three weeks.

I work online.

I might as well.

I ended up never leaving,

Buying a place here,

Settling down.

I live here half the year now.

But other than that,

Another big thing that changed my life coming out here was I met Matt Cohen at the pool during like a lunch break or something.

I heard him speaking about cryptocurrency.

This is early 2018.

So Bitcoin was just about to pop,

The bubble,

I mean.

But anyway,

I heard him speaking about it.

Everyone's been to Bitcoin.

He's interesting.

He seemed like an expert.

Other than speaking about cryptocurrency,

The more relevant thing,

The thing that's more sustainable that we spoke about is his views on wealth as a whole and abundance as a whole.

Many people speak about abundance in the personal development world.

I'd say it's certainly a mystical view.

It's not provable.

It's not scientific.

It requires some faith.

But the thing is,

Whether or not it's provable,

It's I think a very expansive way to look at wealth.

So just playing with the idea over the last couple of years,

Not exactly following it to a T,

But like here's acting as if,

Seeing what would happen.

My income has shot up a ton.

And more importantly,

And maybe because of this,

My views around money became a lot less tight,

A lot less fearful,

And just made me feel good about myself in the world.

So basically speaking with Matt inspired the creation of the Neighbor Fund.

The Neighbor Fund was started by myself and some other people,

Including Matt,

Who were inspired by the idea of the abundance model and a way to give back and feel good about yourself and create a more abundant reality.

So without giving out too much away the episode,

This is the abundance model.

Right now you're listening to episode 074,

Matt Kohn,

The abundance model.

You're listening to the Ruwondo Podcast,

Part of the Gotham Podcast Studio Network in New York,

New York.

If you enjoy the show,

Please subscribe and rate it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Awesome.

It's great to have you here,

Matt.

I've been excited to have this conversation with you.

So it's awesome that we got to it.

Yeah,

So we met in Chiang Mai almost two years ago now,

Kind of randomly at a retreat.

I think I overheard you speaking about cryptocurrency and then we started talking about abundance.

And you shared with me a perspective that since then,

I mean,

The two things I know for sure is that my wealth has gone up a lot lately.

And I also feel a lot better about money.

The first part may or may not have to direct,

You know,

We can't tell,

Right,

How much it directly affected.

But totally my financial life has changed.

My views of money have changed.

So I'm really grateful to you for that.

And I'd love if you could share what the abundance model was and how you arrived at it.

I was five,

Six,

Seven years ago,

I was in a long 10-day retreat.

And usually in those 10-day silent retreats,

I get downloaded something.

And that one specifically was this whole sort of education and learnings about this notion of abundance.

And I kept seeing all these different angles and,

You know,

The difference between abundance and generosity.

And I pretty much have lived pretty much an abundant lifestyle,

Most of my life.

But I just saw how it all sort of came together.

And then I just started talking about it with people.

Can you break down what it is exactly so that people know what we're talking about?

Sure.

So the idea of abundance is a belief,

A recognition that I've pretty much always had what I need,

And a lack of fear of the future that the future won't be the same.

So then basically in abundance,

You have a confidence and a lack of fear that what you need,

Both financially with love or with any oxygen,

That you have the sufficient resources to be accomplishing what you're doing in life.

And fear gets put into place,

Which brings up the whole notion of scarcity.

And scarcity is usually a fear of the future.

I'm afraid that 30 years from now,

I'm going to be stuck in some hole and not have resources.

So I'm going to stockpile a lot of resources now to absolve this fear of the future.

So the idea of abundance model is it's also a mindset.

There are many people here in Seattle that I used to counsel that had millions and millions of dollars,

And they live with a scarcity mindset.

They feared that they were going to have resources in the future,

And their kids wouldn't have resources in the future.

But I spent a bunch of time with people in Nepal,

And it blew me away.

These people had nothing relative to a Westerner.

But their culture supports them.

Their community supports them.

If you need something,

If somebody gets sick,

Everybody throws money in a pot and takes care of people.

And so the people there live very much in the present,

And they have very little fear of scarcity.

So the actual amount of money that you have doesn't really drive abundance or scarcity.

It's a mindset,

And it's a confidence that you will have what source will take care of you,

The universe will take care of you.

So how do you get from a person that has millions that lives in scarcity,

How do you get them to see abundance?

And the traditional wisdom in the West is we'll make more money,

And at some point in time you'll have so much money that you won't feel the future anymore.

But in reality,

The more money you have,

You start fearing that you're going to lose it even more than if you didn't have it,

Which is a pretty frequent thing.

So it came really clear to me is the only way to practice abundance was to blow the overflowing cup,

Which is talked about in a lot of different traditions.

If you have a 10-ounce cup and someone tries to pour 15 ounces in it,

What happens?

Five of it overflows.

And you realize that 10 ounces is what you need,

And 15 comes in,

I guess they didn't need that extra five.

So from the abundance model perspective,

It says start flowing excess resources now,

Shrink your cup down so that you can actually start flowing excess,

And as you start to get comfortable,

It's like,

Oh,

There's this extra flow flowing out of me.

The cup will start growing over time.

So like in practice,

It's like allocating part of your income to things that are beyond you.

So the practice that was given to me,

Someone's got overweight,

You need a system.

You need to start counting calories and you need to figure out your proteins and things.

You need some sort of system to get your diet in order.

And then if you really deliver on that,

Maybe after six months or a year,

It just becomes automatic.

You start eating the right things,

Eating the right calories.

A financial model,

Again,

Most people here think,

Well,

I'm going to save up a bunch of money and then I can be generous in the future.

But the abundance model says,

No,

You need to start practicing now.

You need to shrink your cup on your expenses and practice overflowing to others.

And then you start to see,

Demonstrate,

Well,

I have excess resources.

You start to feel this flow of abundance and lots of different systems,

A lot of attraction and different things will say,

If you're flowing abundance,

Then more abundance is going to come to you.

You're going to,

New clients,

New resources,

Different things will start to come and support that practice.

Yeah.

I remember you said something,

Which we laughed before about like the universe is like a multi-level marketer.

Like if you're giving,

If you're distributing well,

It'll give you more stuff.

I think that's been a nice way to look at it at least.

Yeah.

It's like a multi-level karma scheme.

The source could go do all this work,

But if they find somebody willing to do the work for them,

Might as well make them do the work for you.

And so if you're unique in your insights on places that need to get served and you start to serve those well,

Then more resources are going to show up to serve them even more.

Yeah.

I,

Because we were saying earlier about like the Nepalese versus millionaires in America.

Have you read Sapiens by any chance?

Yeah.

He speaks about,

Harari speaks about like the isolation of consumerism of like making us like these individual units we have to provide for ourselves.

So of course we hoard because like we have nothing.

And like what I'm drawing from like this perspective is like,

Even if we're in a consumer society where we don't expect the community to chip in for us,

We're kind of just trusting that the universal collective will take care of us.

And then we can actually be open with our resources again.

I mean,

I like to think about it as hoarding is like blocking the flow of energy and in the body,

The blocking of flow of the energy creates cancer.

So if you're blocking,

If you're a river,

You're blocking it with a dam,

Eventually it could bust if there's more resources that come through and that dam will break and things will happen.

So if you're hoarding resources,

It's my theory that at some level,

People in the world need like new houses need to get built.

So your house will get burnt down because this money needs to flow.

Right?

So things start to,

I think like if you have a massive hoarding problem,

Eventually the universe is going to try to move that and things will in life will occur where you will have to start spending resources.

Yeah,

This is one of the things that I think I pushed back on initially because it is in the realm of magical thinking.

We can't prove any of this,

Right?

But I think everyone,

I could probably think of situations where they grip too tightly and it was taken away or something,

Or at least the thing that sold it for me when you shared it was like,

Even if all of this stuff,

We can't tell the cause and effects of karma and stuff like what you're buying in quotes is like the feeling of abundance,

Which is like directly feel,

You can directly feel it and how could that not make you more resourceful?

Exactly.

So one of the things that got really blew me away is when I understood the difference between generosity and abundance.

So a lot of people talk about the notion of generosity and generosity is to say you have $1,

000 and someone comes by and says,

You know,

They need $100 and you give them $100 out of your 1,

000 and now you have 900.

It's like you gave them something that was yours and now you have less.

And that person is considered generous,

Like they gave something that was theirs up to somebody else.

Abundance is picture you have an apartment and in your closet you have space for three jackets.

But now you have,

Somehow you have 10 jackets and somebody walks by in front of you and they're cold.

You like,

You take that extra jacket and you give it to them and like they're doing you almost a favor.

Like that was the appropriate place for it.

You didn't have space for it.

They took it off your hands and it feels good because they actually need it.

You had an excess and as kind of an abundant person,

You starting,

Where's the proper place for this thing?

Or place where it is not under my couch,

I don't have a cord it.

This person's cold.

Well,

This is the proper place for this extra jacket.

Right.

It's abundant.

When you're abundant,

There's no,

There's no pain in giving.

Like where generosity is usually there's a little bit of pain,

But you people admire the person for being generous because they're willing to take some pain for it.

Right.

Yeah.

It's been great.

We're like,

It's not,

It's not a zero sum situation where you're losing or like you're giving at expense,

You know,

Like,

I don't know if we've ever spoken about Charles Eisenstein's stuff,

But like,

I remember one of his books,

Like he was sharing all these statistics.

Like there's six empty homes for every homeless person in America.

And like,

Obviously the world produces way more food than all of the starving people would need.

But like,

We just have this like terrible distribution scheme.

So it's kind of like correcting it a little bit.

So the abundance model says that you need to have a proper cash fund,

If you will.

And it's okay to have a proper stash,

Like an appropriate amount of money put away to cover the cash flow issue and some amount of savings going forward.

But excess amount of savings will create a scarcity mindset.

It'll start to create a disease in the mind and you'll start fearing the loss of that and you'll become more constrictive.

You don't want to see that thing flowing.

Are you familiar with fire?

Financial independence,

Retire early community.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have a couple friends that are really into that right now here.

We have good debates about it.

Yeah,

I'm curious because I mean,

I heard about this more recently and like,

Some of the principles are very much the same,

Like reduced expenditures,

Like you don't need those extra things,

But it's all about putting it into index funds or something that you live off the interest as opposed to like giving would be kind of against the principles of the abundance model.

I'm curious,

Like what your side of the debate is.

When you're abundant,

You're not,

I guess it's frugal.

You could be frugal,

But things just feel right.

Like it doesn't feel right to stay in a $400 a night hotel when there's a $70 hotel option available.

There's just sort of an amount that feels right to flow from.

But the idea of sacrificing really being constrictive so that in the future you don't have to work and the idea of retirement is that you're really not doing anything.

In my mind,

Like the well-long-lived life is someone that's going to be continuing to engage with things throughout their entire life and that will probably bring additional resources.

So it's not like,

Let me save up a bunch of money so that I don't have to be accepting resources down the road.

That's kind of a traditional model in the West is make a bunch of money and you retire and you're not needing income.

You live off of your investments,

If you will.

If you're engaged in meaningful purposeful work,

Then there's going to be this flow of an energy exchange that comes in that will probably include financial resources because it will redistribute this from them.

Yeah.

Well,

I think one of the most compelling things about even the FHIR stuff to me is that most people when they reach financial independence,

They actually find they like to do more things.

Like free from that,

That's one of the arguments for universal basic income too.

Like they find a lot of people end up doing more things when they have guaranteed money.

So yeah,

I think that's interesting.

Again,

It's like faith in the future as opposed to fear about it.

Yeah,

I agree.

Yeah.

From what I know about you,

You're basically retired,

Right?

Like you do things,

But.

.

.

I mean,

I'm busier now with things and resources come and go.

The last eight or nine years,

I haven't had like a W-2 income,

A specific paycheck,

But the more that I've practiced the abundance model resources just start to show up.

So,

And I co-own a real estate company in Seattle.

Did a bunch of contract work for someone a couple summers ago.

Helped my mutual friend,

Caitlin with our trucking company.

So there's just fascinating projects that show up and usually those things bring the energy exchange in some form,

Whether it's housing or food and lodging or finding money coming.

I wouldn't want to accept the word that I'm retired,

But just to me,

It has some stigma associated with it.

You have an adverse reaction to income coming in.

I just keep staying in things that feel good and feel a purpose and there's an appropriate energy exchange that comes from it.

I just keep trying to redistribute at least 30% of what comes in.

I just keep trying to do that externally and see how that actually creates this ripple effects and more resources come from the giving.

It's kind of a whirlwind that rises.

Yeah.

I remember one of your examples,

You recommend allocating 10% to three different categories.

People,

Causes and magic.

Your example for magic is anonymously paying for dinner for someone,

For instance.

I remember the second time I did it,

It was in Chiang Mai.

My friend and I,

We actually together paid for all the tables at one of the nicer restaurants here.

I remember,

As you suggested,

We had separated this money into separate accounts.

It wasn't like we were giving from ourselves.

It's a secret.

The whole staff were in on it.

I remember walking out of there and it felt like we had just robbed a bank.

We had this thrill that we just got away with something awesome,

But it was beneficial to everyone.

That in itself was so useful.

Whatever scarcity feelings they had around money,

They couldn't stay at the same time.

It's a strange thing to walk into a restaurant,

Pay for someone meal that you've never have seen and you leave before you see their reaction.

Then it really does recondition the mind that I'm abundant.

I just did something.

A logical person would say that's like burning money.

You might as well just lit it on fire.

Walked in a restaurant,

Pay for someone's meal,

Left without seeing their reaction.

It reinforces in my mindset abundance.

I do feel there's this karmic accounting system out there where the checks and balances and things laid out.

By doing that,

Putting that magic into the field,

If you will,

Then positive things start to happen in my life.

People walk down the street and someone gives you a ticket to a football game.

Things just happen.

It really balances it out.

Yeah.

What do you say to someone who's maybe concerned that if they go into it with that karmic expectation,

They're doing it for the wrong reason at that point?

The ultimate goal of all of this practice is to condition my mind to be an abundant mind,

That I don't fear the future.

Knowing that I'm putting things into the field and see that your life becomes more and more positive,

That breeds more and more faith that the model works.

If you're doing it selfishly,

You put it in and expect to get it out.

But the reality is you're probably going to get out three times what you put in.

If you're really practicing this model,

Then you have three times as much to actually distribute.

It starts to become a really abundant field.

The 30% is sort of a baseline.

There have been times when it starts to feel like 50% or 60% to redistribute because the resources coming in are so much that I don't want to hoard those.

Then there are these really cool opportunities to invest that seem to pop up at the same time.

Yeah.

You've done a bunch of cool things lately.

At least when I message you,

You're building something or creating something.

Can you share some of the stuff that you've created?

Right now,

I co-founded a benefit corporation real estate company in Seattle,

Washington.

Our model is we've partnered with the local land trust.

The land trust's mission is to secure open spaces for public usage.

They go buy large tracts of land and prevent them from being logged and so forth.

We're partnering with them.

They're turning us on to a lot of new leads,

So people that want to sell the land.

We contribute 30% of all of our commission dollars back to the land trust.

It's kind of the abundant model where they're our partner.

Through that,

Our resources are feeding public good.

We've been getting so many more deals coming to us by practicing this model than before when we weren't.

It's sort of self-feeding.

We create a self in a more positive way.

And it's set up as a benefit corporation,

Which is a different kind of entity in the United States,

Right?

Yeah.

B Corps are kind of a hybrid between a for-profit and not for-profit.

Patagonia is the best known B Corp in probably the world.

Patagonia's mission is to affect positive change in the Patagonia region of Chile.

If they were a nonprofit,

They would come up with plans and then they would go find donors to give them money and affect that change.

Patagonia comes up with a plan and then they go create great products to create profits and then affect that change themselves.

So it's kind of using the power of capitalism,

If you will,

To affect positive change in the world rather than the traditional sort of profit where you go and try to get access resources from wealthy people to affect change.

Yeah,

What I found about is interesting because if all the major corporations or a critical mass of people believe this way,

The world's poverty issues could be solved,

Right?

It puts so much faith in an individual.

I heard Google dropped their tagline,

Don't be evil.

I heard that on a podcast.

Enough is true.

But what stops someone when they have all this power to just change their mind?

Well,

B Corp is required to have a triple bottom line.

You're required to build business strategies that support your investors,

Employees,

And a dedicated cause that you're in business for.

Your corporation documents require management to do that.

So it's like a balance system on capitalism and greed.

A typical company that has a vision starts to make a lot of profits,

Greed kicks in and those profits go to investors.

And then they try to squeeze resources from their employees.

And if they do any charity work in the world,

It's really just a marketing campaign.

But B Corp says,

No,

The more successful we are,

All three parties will equally benefit.

You have to develop and balance that out in your business strategy.

Do you think there's any,

I don't mean to go into politics,

But like any national shift that can maybe encourage this kind of movement?

Well,

It's an international movement,

B Corp.

It's been about seven or eight years that they've really been in place.

The belief is that a B Corp on the mid to long term basis will be more profitable than our traditional for profit company.

And the reason for that,

If you take a company that operates in this way,

They're going to have more passionate and probably brighter employees that want to work there because they're getting paid better than they are in other places and their company has a purpose.

Investors get a dual return because they both get a financial return as well as a philanthropic return.

So if you're investing in a company that's doing this work,

You're feeling good about the work they're doing,

But you also get a return.

Because they're much more willing to buy these products and pay a premium on it because they feel good about the brand.

They feel good about what that company is doing in the world.

So they're willing to pay more,

But also do it repetitively,

Be more and more of a repeat customer for these types of companies.

Yeah,

Good.

Well,

So hopefully,

I mean,

My strong sense is that as B Corps become more and more established and they start to kick butt on other non B Corps,

That just capitalism will sort of shift in this way.

Yeah,

I want to stress the idea of the non-financial return being as valuable because on the flip side,

My very first venture into internet marketing,

I had a business partner who crossed some lines for me personally,

But they're marketing best practices and we made more money than ever had made,

But I felt so shitty,

It wasn't worth it.

And again,

What sold it for me when you shared this is,

I think you said,

How much is that feeling worth?

The feeling of feeling good.

It's worth more than anything,

At least once your survival is taken care of.

And your generation coming in gets even more than mine.

I was raised in the 80s and Gordon Gekko agreed is good from Wall Street.

That's what was it.

And much of our generation who hasn't been able to break away from that,

It's hard.

They don't get it.

That money won't bring happiness.

And at a certain level,

You need money.

You need your base root chakra needs taken care of.

And beyond that,

There's a lot more joy that comes from doing stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've just noticed like in situations like being self-employed,

Like where there's like an emotional risk to putting myself out there in an opportunity where I could succeed or fail and make money,

Just knowing that part of my income is going to things that are more important than my selfish needs.

Kind of like gives you a little extra motivation of like,

Well,

I can't let them down.

Right?

It's not about me looking good or anything.

Yeah.

A realization that came to me as well is again,

My generation,

We were raised with,

You're going to get married,

Have kids,

And you're going to go produce,

And you're going to raise money for you and three other people.

So my traditional way,

My wife and two kids.

So I was going to make money and every money that I made was benefiting three other people.

More and more so now people aren't getting married or having kids until later in life.

And so there isn't this sort of early practice in necessarily making money for other people that comes later on.

Right?

So you know,

You kind of make money and serve your own needs.

And so one of the cool things about the abundance model is it teaches people pretty early on to start distributing wealth to other people as you're making it,

Much less if you were in a family.

Right?

Yeah,

It's like,

Yeah,

I think it forces you to be connected to the collective as opposed to isolating,

Which is like kind of the cause of a lot of our spiritual problems,

Like just feeling separate.

I think you said something when we first met,

Like,

It's like you have three other children,

Like people,

Causes and magic that you need to provide for.

It's like,

Oh,

Yeah,

I mean,

That actually,

It just feels good.

It's hard to like say that without smiling.

And like,

That's like worth a lot.

Yeah,

For me,

I had three other,

I was married and had two kids that I was responsible for.

And I started practicing the business model when I went to college and my wife and I separated.

So for me,

It's pretty natural.

It's like,

Oh,

These are the three people that I'm providing for people causes and magic now and,

You know,

So they would allow me to continue that practice.

Yeah.

Can you share a little bit about like your transition from W2 employment?

Like how you live now?

Yeah.

Um,

Honestly,

I don't,

I don't really think about money at all.

I have a lot of faith.

It's more like fun when money comes in,

I see that my stuff getting paid.

And then usually there's something that there's a need that shows up and I'm like,

Oh,

Like,

Here's this extra jacket,

It's not mine,

It belongs to you.

So that metaphor works really well for me.

So it's just sort of moving puzzle pieces around to their appropriate places.

You know,

I have money at a credit union,

I think it's really important not to have money in banks.

I think it's really,

Really important not to have any debt.

I've never twice in my life,

I've not paid the credit card bill on time when it back when I had credit cards.

So I've never had debt in my life.

I think that's a real downer on abundance,

Because it's very difficult to be in an abundant world when you owe money to somebody else.

So you know,

You can't you have a leaky cup,

It's very difficult to overflow the overflowing cup because you get the leak at the bottom.

I've coached a lot of people that have credit card debt is to try if they can to move that debt to a credit union.

And when they're giving when they're paying off that debt,

Think of it as a donation to the to the nonprofit that's a credit union,

Because the credit unions role is to support other people and not do it in a,

You know,

In a evil way,

If you will.

So it's really,

Really important to stay away from debt.

Is that why you recommend banks over credit unions?

Credit unions over banks?

Oh,

Yes,

I meant that.

I mean,

The job of a credit,

The job of bank is to get people addicted onto credit,

And the leech on their life for the rest of their life.

That's the role of a bank.

It's pretty sad.

My my younger daughter,

When she graduated from college at 22,

She got a mailer from the local bank saying,

Hey,

We'd like to offer you a $4,

000 free credit per year.

And it's just like giving someone a free vial a crack and say,

Here,

You take this,

You know,

Yeah.

And once you kind of get used to having access to that credit line,

It's very,

Very difficult to not use in the future.

You kind of assume that that's part of your your income status.

Right?

Yeah,

I'm a quite quite a anti bank.

Credit unions are,

You know,

They form us,

They serve an important purpose,

But they're supporting the community of people not to get people addicted to credit.

Gotcha.

Cool.

Do you have any tips for someone starting their practice with the abundance model?

People who just hear about this,

We're we're shooting it again.

Minutes.

Turns out how serious somebody is.

But it's a it's a pretty interesting practice to go say,

Commit to six months of distributing 10% of your income to each of the three buckets of people causes a magic and shrinking down to 70% to be for your own bucket.

But the people that I've seen using it after the six months,

The the net 70 is greater than the growth of 100 before they begin the practice.

The show up so the 70% is actually more than when they were not practicing.

And that's just on a financial basis.

And not to mention the emotional benefits of coming to support these other three.

If not,

One way to do it,

We put money in those set these three different accounts and maybe not grant it out right away.

So allow it to grow and try to imagine that that's really not your money and and live on the 70 and assume you put money into these people causes a magic bank accounts,

But maybe not drift.

I mean,

Maybe not distribute all of it out until you really have confidence in it.

They believe after three or four months,

So this doesn't work for me.

You can you can retain access to those funds.

Yeah,

That's been really great for me as well.

Like just seeing it grow and like,

Like,

Oh,

Wow,

This couple hundred dollars can make an impact.

And now it's fun to spend it because it's not coming out of my account.

Yeah,

I just want to share like my,

You know,

We met two years ago,

I think I was like,

Really intrigued by this,

But I was skeptical.

And I actually was still paying off debt from earlier.

Yeah,

Earlier in life.

And it was kind of it was very challenging.

I was aggressively paying off my debt,

But also starting to distribute money for things that felt good.

But what I did find was like around six months,

I had way more money.

And this is just this is not,

You know,

Obviously proof of anything.

But it was I definitely felt better.

And I did have more money at the end of it.

By the time I paid off my debt,

Which was about six months later,

I had way more money than I ever had.

It's,

Yeah.

I've been a pretty logical person my whole life,

But I think I've lived a pretty magical life.

But my mind has always been pretty logical about it.

The last seven or eight years or so I've,

I've allowed the idea that there's a lot more magic happening out there.

And then I would have given credit to in the past.

And so when I think people really step up to doing magic,

To bring magic into the field to,

You know,

Helping others anonymously.

And more magic starts to show up in their life.

You know,

It just happens.

Yeah,

I've probably worked with maybe 50 people in this practice.

And I would be honest,

I'd say about 75% of people have gotten really turned on by the other people that didn't work for them.

It's got about a 75%.

That's pretty good.

Worth ragering a little money if you're if you're on the fence.

Cool.

I is great.

I think we covered everything I wanted to hit.

Is there anything you might want to share about this with anyone else?

No,

There's a website.

I haven't updated it in a while,

But it's called the abundance model.

Org.

We do have a Facebook page that people have shared some ideas on.

I claim no ownership of this.

So I came through me and I put it out there would love other people's participation and if it takes off.

I'm sure that I share that with people that are listening.

I'm a proponent of it as well.

And basically,

Yeah,

The philosophy of everything and how to get started is on that page,

Which was great.

Cool.

Well,

Thanks so much,

Matt.

I feel extra jazzed about all of this as well.

Because I'll be honest,

Like there are times where like,

I kind of forget and like scarcity comes back in and they don't want to distribute my income.

But yeah,

I go through phases to it really helped me get started.

I don't think I go into scarcity,

But I just kind of forget the practice for a while.

And I'm like,

I need to get back up.

I need like a diet,

You eat kind of crappy for a little while.

And then all of a sudden,

Like,

Yeah,

I'm gonna clean my app for a month and kind of get back on the wagon.

And so it's a continuous practice.

Definitely when I feel tight,

When I feel like,

Oh,

Geez,

I feel starting to feel contracting.

The best way to get over that is to just go give 50 bucks to some random person and walk away.

You know,

It's just like right in the face.

No,

No bullshit.

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take on scarcity here.

Nope,

Not at all.

And the way to fight that is to do an act of abundance.

And things just shift.

Like the mind I'm not gonna allow that to come into my experience.

That's awesome.

Cool.

Yeah,

Well,

Thanks again.

Good to talk to you.

Take care.

Hey,

Thanks for listening to the podcast.

If you want to catch the rest of my work,

Go to Luwondo.

Com.

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Join the conversation.

And please do not forget to subscribe.

Reviews

Great ideas to carry forth in life. #grateful

Absolutely loved it!!! Learned so much and I look forward to implementing this in my own life.