005 Bez Stone: Styles Of Attachment

Bez is sexuality educator who had a brilliant TED talk on female sexuality. She also recently shared a series of posts about intimacy regarding moving in with her boyfriend. Bez and Ruwan speak about what gets triggered in the psyche when you get close to a loved one and how to navigate intimacy.

Transcript

Today's guest is Bez Stone.

She's a coach of women's sexual fulfillment.

She's given an awesome TED Talk on female orgasm in Santa Cruz.

Bez is a friend of mine who I want to have on this podcast anyway,

But I had her on now because recently my girlfriend has been sending me all of Bez's Facebook posts.

Bez has been doing this series or she just did this series on needs because she just moved in with her boyfriend after a long time of living by herself.

I happened to move in with my girlfriend in the last month and we both talked about it and Bez shared a lot of great insight.

And I love podcasts like these because in this specific episode,

I got a whole new level of approval for myself and how I'm behaving in relationship.

Bez is just a beacon of approval as I tell her in the episode and how to navigate the needs.

And I learned some great terms like glomer and splitter and different ways of viewing attachment styles in relationships.

So this is an awesome episode to learn a little bit about how to become intimate in an intimate relationship in a way that feels good.

This is episode 005,

Bez Stone needs and intimate fulfillment.

You're listening to the Ruwando podcast,

Perpetual Orgasm,

Infinite Play.

Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show.

All right.

Hey Bez.

Hey everyone.

All right.

So I'll just tell you when I started this podcast,

You're already on the list of people I want to talk to.

The reason I reached out to you at this stage in time is that my girlfriend Chantel keeps sending me your Facebook posts as soon as they come out.

It's like,

Isn't this exactly what's going on for us?

It's like,

All right,

I need to talk to Bez now.

Yeah,

I've been kicking ass on Facebook lately.

It's been awesome.

Thanks.

So,

You posted a series on needs recently because you just moved in with your boyfriend.

It's been a couple of weeks now.

No,

Five days.

Oh,

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

It's very recent.

I'm talking now.

Me too.

Yeah,

It's fresh.

Yeah.

So a lot came up for you this week.

And what I personally have been interested in is that it's kind of,

I just moved into with Chantel,

My girlfriend,

And we've been kind of going through something very similar and your articulations have been very much applying to us.

And a lot of times we're like,

Oh,

That's what that was.

Bez just said it.

So I'd love to start there with like what you've uncovered about needs and moving into this like new stage with your boyfriend.

Well first,

I'll totally tell you first,

Will you tell I would love to hear a little bit about what's coming up for you guys just so I can frame it in terms of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I mean,

I have notes.

But the big the big thing was like,

You had a post on desperation yesterday,

Right?

Very recently.

And Chantel read it to me in the car.

And why it was super relevant was that literally the night beforehand,

We went through something like that where I we weren't really feeling each other.

And like,

This summarize,

Basically,

She finally was like,

Oh,

I'm it's just I'm like,

So in love with you.

And I don't want to tell you felt better.

And we're actually able to have sex in a way that felt good.

And then you put out the post the next morning that I kind of described what we were going through.

I love it.

I love how universal it is.

Yeah.

So I got interested in writing a whole series about having needs because like you said,

That was that was one of the main things that was coming up for me upon moving in,

Like,

It's easy,

Relatively easy.

I mean,

Relationships are always somewhat of a challenge.

But when I at least have my own home,

And have a sort of my own space to retreat to one of the reasons that I tend to,

You know,

Function better in relationship is that I have my basic needs can be met by me,

As opposed to having to rely on someone else to meet them.

I think that's something that terrifies a lot of people about relationship and about connection is having to ask for our needs admit that we even have them,

Reveal them get them met or not.

I mean,

So many clients and just women,

Friends or friends of all genders that I talked to express how difficult it is to have needs and that for most of us,

We've completely pushed them down under the surface.

Now,

The problem is that when we do that,

It doesn't actually make them go away,

Right?

Like any of us who've been alive,

And especially are in relationships know that repressing our needs or pretending we don't have any actually doesn't make them go away.

So that was what really inspired me.

I love something you wrote in one of your articles.

Actually,

You know,

I'll take that back.

I didn't love it.

But I felt things when I read it.

It's your job to have your needs met.

Yeah.

Which I think,

Like is very opposite of what people think when they think about things they want or need.

Like,

It's like,

Oh,

It's my responsibility.

I mean,

It puts a lot of like,

I don't know,

It just makes people uncomfortable.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And that was what I started out with at the beginning of the week was this teaching from my teacher,

Thomas Leonard,

Who's amazing,

Who I never met,

Because he died when I was a teenager.

And I didn't find out about him till after he died.

But he's the one who really introduced that concept to me that needs are not optional.

And oftentimes,

You know,

Like,

Like we just spoke about,

People don't want to admit that they have needs or I didn't want to admit that I had needs.

And so I would live with them unmet.

His idea is basically that if it's a need,

We have to get it met,

It is not we won't be able to function successfully or happily without that need being met.

And so he's very forceful about it,

Actually.

And so I appreciate that you had feelings.

Maybe you didn't love it,

But that you had feelings about it,

Because it's true.

Many of us think,

Well,

I need this,

But right,

It's,

It's vulnerable to ask for it's embarrassing.

I'll never get it.

My partner won't want to give it to me.

It's unreasonable,

Right?

I don't know what are your excuses for not asking?

I could deal without it,

Which I guess makes which makes me claim that's not a need.

Because like the definition,

I think you I don't know if this came from Thomas Leonard,

But like,

A need is something is like a requisite for happiness.

It's like you can't be happy without it.

Yeah,

You can't function even would be a function optimally is probably how I would say that.

So yeah,

I know happiness is kind of a tricky thing.

So I don't think any of us are happy all the time.

I think our needs getting met necessarily makes us happy,

Right?

But optimal functioning,

Actually being able to show up and be present in our relationships and take responsibility for,

You know,

Fully.

Like fully connecting,

Right?

But the way I see it now that I've been taught on this concept for a little while,

Is that we can't completely connect with our partners unless our these basic,

Fundamental needs that we have are actually met.

So when people say things to me,

Like,

Well,

It's selfish,

Right to get my needs met.

I'm like,

No,

It's not.

Like,

It's,

It's selfish of you to not get them met,

Because then you get to stay hiding from your partner.

And you get to pretend to be someone that you're not and you aren't actually available to fully engage with them the way that might come off as needy,

Because your needs aren't met.

So now you're trying to fill that hole with the other person.

Right?

Well,

That's what he said,

You know,

And he said,

Needy people don't have their needs met.

Right?

Like when when we actually,

Yeah,

When we actually take responsibility for for our needs,

And we get willing to have them,

It actually makes us less needy,

Because the basic things that we require in order to function,

Opt opt,

Optimally function are taken care of.

So I'm no longer,

You know,

Crawling around trying to get what I what I need from my partner and,

You know,

Scratching at the surface and hoping that he notices and you know,

Constantly wanting more but not saying it overtly.

Instead,

I can just say,

These things that we often shy away from saying,

Like,

I need a lot of attention.

This is one of mine,

I need just massive amounts of attention in my relationships,

Like far more than many people might think is reasonable,

Or even that I do.

But once I really claimed that that was a need,

And that when I felt a lack of attention that I actually couldn't function well in our relationship,

I just started asking him for it,

He was happy to give it to me.

And at that point,

I became a much more pleasant person to be with rather than constantly trying to,

You know,

Elicit his attention,

I just asked for it outright.

And it worked a lot better.

How did you identify that as a need given the unreasonable perception of it?

And the idea?

What comes up for me when I think of that?

It's like,

Oh,

Well,

Some things are like,

Not really needs like I don't need a two hour massage a day,

But I would love to ask for it.

Like,

How do you know that's a need?

How did you great question?

Let's see.

That's massage.

Maybe I'm,

I don't know.

So I think for me,

The things that I realize are needs,

There's,

There's a couple of things that I do in my thought process when I'm examining whether something's in need or not.

One is if I consistently notice that I'm constantly trying to get more,

But in a covert way,

Right.

So if I'm,

If there's something that I try to sneak,

Or that I think about constantly,

But I don't want to talk about,

Or that I sort of make hints at,

In hopes that my partner might give it to me or that I might get it from someone else,

I start to examine like,

Maybe this is something that I actually need.

Because my,

You know,

However you want to identify the unconscious parts of ourselves,

Right,

What,

However,

Whatever you call that,

My unconscious is somehow attempting to get something for me that my conscious self doesn't want to admit that I need,

Right.

So that's the first thing is,

If you're kind of,

You know,

Sneakily or underhandedly trying to achieve something,

Consider that it might be a need.

The second is,

You know,

I think that I have different needs when I'm in relationship and different needs when I'm single.

There are needs that I have in a relationship that aren't true when I am not partnered.

And so that's one of the other things I what's that you have an example of one of those?

Um,

Well,

Actually,

Now that now that you say that,

I'm like,

Maybe that's actually maybe that is the current need of mine all the time.

So attention is a big one.

So I require a lot of attention,

Like I said,

When I'm in a relationship when I'm not in a relationship,

I don't it's not the same sort of desperate level of if we're going to be together,

I need you to,

You know,

Give me tons of touch,

Time,

You know,

Just interaction.

Like I need a lot of that in order to be happy and to actually feel fulfilled in my relationships when I don't have a partner or when I'm just casually dating.

It doesn't come up for me because I feel I can function just as optimally as a single person without that constant level of attention as I feel like I can function optimally in a way that I can't once I have a partner.

Now,

As I'm saying that I'm thinking,

Huh,

Maybe that's actually a need of mine all the time.

But it's something that I haven't wanted to ask for or owned up to,

Especially when I'm single,

Because attention to me,

Right?

It's that,

Um,

That's,

That's interesting.

I'm gonna think about that.

Um,

Something that just popped into my head,

Well,

Actually,

It's related to something I wanted to ask you about earlier with having a separate home for a lot of the time or your own space.

And like,

The idea of like a loss of self when you enter relationship,

Because like,

It sounded like,

Oh,

You're totally self sustaining when you don't have a partner.

Once you have a partner,

Now you are not self sustaining.

Is that I mean,

I just noticed I have like a bunch of like fears around that in relationship to like not losing my serenity or independence.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So you have a bunch of fears that if you and what is what is the what is the thing that it's like,

If you do this,

Then you'll lose your yourself,

You'll lose your autonomy.

Um,

I don't even know if it's autonomy.

It's like the idea that I want,

Or going off of your thing with the why you used to live alone.

Like,

Just having a home base to go back to where I can like,

Take care of everything.

I not rely on someone.

Right.

Totally.

Yeah.

So that was why I used to do it.

Like I wrote about in that post,

I used to keep my own home and think I wanted one.

Not so much because I prefer it that way.

But more because it bypasses me in the moment having to get totally clear with my partner on what I want and what I need.

So when I have my own house,

I can I can say,

All right,

I'm gonna I'm gonna go home now.

I'll see you tomorrow.

I'll see you in a couple hours.

You know,

We're not going to spend this particular night together.

And then what happens is I get to go to my own space and do all the things that I'm uncomfortable doing in front of someone else.

So some of that might be,

You know,

Anything from a certain level of relaxation that some of us don't do around our partners.

I used to be that kind of person if I if I needed to sort of turn off the switch on my personality or on my energy level,

I did not like to do it in front of anyone.

I wanted to go home,

I wanted to be alone.

And I would sort of turn the off switch on Bez and I would relax and it was something I had to do by myself because I was embarrassed about it.

Another one is I love to play this is talking about I'm telling you this.

I love to play solitaire on my phone.

It's like the only game I have on my phone.

I'm so not a phone game person.

But there are certain times where like my brain needs again to sort of shut down.

I love playing solitaire.

And so because I could win,

You know,

Like one out of 10 times.

I love that.

And that's something I would normally never do in front of someone else.

But in this relationship,

He actually knows,

You know,

It's so sometimes I'm in the bathroom and I don't have my phone.

He's like,

I just opened solitaire for you and I'm sliding in the door.

He knows that I love to play.

And so,

You know,

That's something that would would have been so embarrassing to me that I would have,

You know,

Pretended that pretended that I wasn't that I wouldn't do the same things in front of him that I would do alone.

So that's what made it you want to give it up.

Give up the home.

Yeah,

Okay.

Yeah.

So um,

So the reason I wanted to give it up is that is the sort of the second part of why I used to live alone.

So a the first part is like that I get to sort of conceal some of the embarrassing parts of me from someone else.

Keep them but do them alone,

Right so that I can sort of keep who I am and then present this more pleasant arch what I thought was attractive front.

And then you know,

Keep my habits that were sort of subversive to myself.

The second reason I used to live alone is that if I have my own space,

I can go to it without having to tell him what I needed in the moment.

So if I need quiet,

Let's say and we share a home,

That's that requires some level of comp,

You know,

Conversation that when we live alone,

It doesn't alone,

I can turn the music off.

I can,

You know,

Set the space to be exactly the way I want it.

When I'm with my partner.

Now,

There's some amount of negotiation that needs to happen some and it is in a way a small,

You know,

A small version of confrontation because people may want different things.

Yeah.

What's up?

Yeah,

Share a calendar.

We do.

Yeah.

And so one of the reasons that made me want to give it up is that I realized actually that I was hiding behind this,

This sort of false safety of having my own place,

Rather than in the moment asking for what I needed.

Honestly,

When I gave up my house,

And he moved in with me,

I could feel in my body based on sort of the projections of my brain,

I could I could feel and imagine every single moment that I was going to have to actually show up and ask for what I wanted instead of just retreat to my own space to do it.

And it was I felt terrified.

Like I felt actually terrified of all the vulnerability that it would take for me in order to to not rely on that that backdoor of my own home,

But instead tell him exactly in the moment what I wanted.

And that to me became more interesting than sort of keeping my,

You know,

Safety zone behind me.

And so I went for it.

And it's been great.

It's been amazing.

The payoff of getting vulnerable and asking for an explanation.

Yeah.

I get to have this level of connection that I that I rarely have gotten to experience in my life.

I get to actually be in a relationship and be me 100%.

And that to me is the best feeling in the world.

Awesome.

Yeah,

I guess so Chantel and I live together,

But we have separate bedrooms kind of so that I have my own space.

I'm wondering,

I still think I want to keep it that way.

But I'm thinking,

You know,

It was,

You know,

It was a kind of a fear based decision.

And actually,

A couple weeks ago,

We kind of had this breakdown where she was like,

Oh,

I think we shouldn't live together anymore.

We moved into soon.

We're kind of spending like unintentional time together,

Which I think just happens because you shut down.

You don't have your own time.

So yeah,

It's been it's been interesting.

Yeah,

Well,

That reminds me I appreciate you sharing that being so open about what's going on.

That reminds me of on one of my posts,

I think it was maybe the live alone post.

I can't remember somebody asked,

How do you know when it and what if a need is inspired by something?

I forget the word they used.

Dysfunctional.

I think that was the word they use.

Like what if let's so let's use this as an example if you're okay with that.

What if your need to have your own bedroom is based on fear,

Anxiety,

Hiding,

You know,

Something that some people would call dysfunction?

You know,

What do we do?

And I said,

Well,

I don't think it actually matters at all if the need is based on dysfunction,

Because it's still a need.

Like,

It doesn't matter,

Right?

If it's a need for you,

In order to optimally function,

Then it's a need for you.

And what I've discovered,

Yeah,

What I've discovered is that when we actually give ourselves the need that some of them transform,

They sort of burn off so that once that one once your your system feels safe enough,

Because you have your own bedroom,

And you've given it to yourself over days,

Months,

Years,

Decades,

And it may not happen,

But you may find that you no longer need that at some point.

But it won't be because your brain or your sort of,

You know,

Good,

Good person has said,

You know,

I should override this need and really dive in there with Chantel and be intimate and not have any backdoors,

Right?

It won't be because of that it will be because you naturally don't need it anymore.

And to me,

That's just a far better way to go rather than try to,

You know,

Force yourself moralistically to do something that's I feel better already.

Yeah,

Because actually,

Going back to your definition is like,

What do you need?

I need is what is required to be optimal.

Like,

There's a lot of practical reasons why I wanted my own space so that Yeah,

My stuff is in the same place.

Like record videos and not be,

You know,

Interrupted.

And yeah,

Yeah.

And even if they weren't practical,

That would be okay,

Too.

Even if it was purely because you felt so terrified imagining not having your own room that you would have been freaking out all the time.

That's a perfectly valid reason also.

Sweet.

Yeah.

It reminds me of something so much more of my teachers gay Katie Hendricks.

I don't know if you've ever heard of them.

They're amazing.

I know.

I should I saw it under from their post.

I looked them up.

Yeah,

They're incredible.

They're both late 60s,

Early 70s.

So they've been around for a long time.

Their relationship work is I highly recommend it to anyone to you and to anyone listening.

It's changed my life.

And so they're,

They're one of the couples,

They've been together for like 30 years,

40 years,

And they're one of those couples whose relationship I would actually want,

Which doesn't happen all the time,

Right?

I don't know if you feel that way.

But oftentimes,

I look at couples and think I would rather be a single than be doing that,

Right,

Whatever that sort of,

You know,

Codependent or sort of miserable looking experience that I saw growing up and that I see so often around me.

You know,

To me,

It's,

It's actually not worth being in a relationship for but gay and Katie's relationship is incredible.

The level of transparency and love and true support,

Like championing of each other is really admirable.

So they talk about this concept that maybe you'll relate to you can tell me called glommers and splitters.

So glommers as in glomming on and splitters as in splitting apart.

They say some people when it's kind of like avoidant and anxious.

Totally.

So when when tension rises or you know,

More energy comes through the system,

Whether it's positive or negative,

Some people's reaction is to glom on get closer,

Stay connected,

You know,

Get physically touched,

Make sure that the you know,

The intimacy is occurring and the relationships intact.

Other people's response is to split and to say I need space,

I need physical distance,

I need autonomy,

I got to retreat and you know,

Sort this out inside before I can come back and connect with you.

Oftentimes,

As you might imagine,

Glommers and splitters are deeply attracted to each other.

Yeah,

Because it gets to glommers together would be perfect for you.

Yeah.

Two splitters.

It's like,

Hey,

You know,

I'll see you later.

And so I must flutter my partner's definitely a glommer.

And so we often struggle with that where it's tension is rising,

And he wants to touch me and I'm like,

Dude,

Don't touch me.

I need I need five feet between us.

So anyway,

Gay and Katie,

They are she's a glommer.

He's a splitter.

And she said for the first 10 years of their relationship,

And these are relationship experts who have worked with,

You know,

Some very high caliber people taught hundreds of 1000s of people at this point relationship,

Radical relationship ideas.

For 10 years,

He had a bed in his office,

Just in case he needed it.

I don't know if he ever actually slept there.

But some part of him was so uncomfortable with the idea of not having his own retreat space that he could go to if he needed it,

That he kept a bed in there.

And to Katie,

I remember her describing this to me,

She she thought I have no idea what that would be like to need that.

But it was clearly a need of his that made him more comfortable.

So she she was like,

Take it,

Have it,

Babe,

Like,

If that's what you need,

Have it.

And then over time,

He no longer needed it,

The bed came down.

And now he just is full time living with her.

And it's been like that for 20 years.

So it reminds me of your story.

Yeah,

I'd imagine it was her reaction that in some way made him not need it.

Like if she was glomming harder,

He probably is like,

So with my relationship example,

I'm definitely the splitter 90% of the time,

But when we had this like kind of tumultuous week a couple weeks ago,

I don't know how it started,

It could be a chicken and the egg thing.

But I was like,

Or at least from my end,

I was like,

Alright,

I'm gonna stop running away.

I'm gonna show up and put like a lot of attention on her and like,

Just always be there.

And then she started running away.

And I was like,

Like,

I was totally glomming for the first time maybe ever in my life.

That was what she was like,

I don't think we should look together.

It's like,

I just did the thing that you've been begging for me,

You know,

This whole time.

And it's just like,

Is that just,

I guess it's just a reaction that we have until we find security,

Just to do the opposite.

Yeah,

Why do you think that happens?

I have an idea.

But I'm curious,

I guess it's because neither person wants or both people are afraid of like,

Actually going becoming intimate.

So they have to play these like complementary roles of running and chasing.

But if the person who's running stops running,

The other person has to run to like maintain that space.

Totally.

Yeah,

I've always heard about it as one person's the gas and one person's the brakes in a relationship.

There's a there has to be a gas we move and there has to be brakes so that we can stop if we need to write just like in the car.

Yeah,

Without either one that the car is not going to do anything interesting.

It's it's either going to careen off a cliff or it's gonna just sit there.

Right.

And so I often noticed this in my relationships too.

And I'd be curious to hear from you,

I definitely have a preference.

So I like being the gas in the relationships.

I'm far more comfortable that way where I'm the one that's saying,

Let's go,

Let's go.

You know,

Let's go out,

Let's do this.

Let's go deeper.

Let's try this wild harebrained idea that I had,

You know,

And I often date people who are the brakes who then say,

No,

We shouldn't do that.

Or,

You know,

That's crazy.

Or they'll go along with me reluctantly.

And when that happens,

I get to feel sort of brave and powerful and adventurous,

Right.

In my current relationship,

He's the gas and I'm the brakes because he's actually more insane.

Which is very rare for me.

So he's the one who's like,

You know,

Let's split town again and go,

You know,

Go off the grid for another week to this festival.

And I'm like,

No,

I've got work to do.

Like,

We need,

You know,

Where's the practical aspects of this relationship.

And I'm very uncomfortable in that role.

I feel like a downer,

Right?

I feel like I'm the one who's always the naysayer who's who's saying,

Well,

What's the reasonable thing to do here?

So I'm the brakes.

And I don't like being the brakes.

And so I've actually been exploring this a lot in the last week or two,

Because it's been coming up about what's what's the next sort of evolution of my relationships that's beyond that.

And when we can talk about this,

I'd be interested in what you think.

And you know,

What I've come up with is that the whole sort of relationship paradigm,

I hate that word,

But I do.

And I sometimes don't know a better one to use of this gas in the brakes,

You know,

Where somebody somebody wants more adventure,

Somebody wants to stay home,

Right?

Somebody wants more intimacy,

Someone says,

Hey,

I'm gonna lose myself here,

That both of those are a form of control in some way.

So So though the the brake seems like it's the only one that's controlling the gas is actually in in a control plan also,

For a variety of reasons.

But the most obvious one is that it's playing into that into the,

It needs breaks,

Right,

Just pure gas with no breaks that the person who's saying,

You know,

Let's throw it all to the wind and go,

Right,

That's not actually a sustainable sort of life path for relationship,

Because it will eventually burn out.

And,

You know,

We can engage in some really reckless behavior that can be,

You know,

Completely detrimental.

So if someone's going to be sort of extreme gas,

Then they require breaks.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what I'm what I'm exploring is sort of what's past that where both of us are surrendered to something greater.

And both of us are out of control,

But not in a reckless,

You know,

Sort of gas right?

Like a self driving car exactly where we don't always know where we're going and that the pace of our adventure changes and that we actually stay sort of,

You know,

In what a lot of spiritual teachings called right relationship with with ourselves in our lives,

Or we stay in that sweet spot of connection that actually sort of is the most sustainable solution instead of constantly playing out this push pull where someone's like,

Let's go,

Let's go for more and someone else is like,

No,

Let's,

Let's,

Let's wait.

Because I think ultimately,

That that game of the gas and the brakes is actually really boring.

That's my suspicion is that over time,

At the beginning,

There's kind of an adrenaline hit of,

You know,

The gas gets to say,

Yeah,

The gas is like,

Oh,

Let's do it.

You know,

Let's be wild,

Which is exciting for some of us who like that.

And the brakes gets us say,

Get to be scared and say,

No,

No,

It's dangerous,

Which is also an adrenaline hit.

So I think that over time,

That gets far less interesting than then,

You know,

Vulnerability or surrender,

Which I think always sort of Trump and adrenaline rush in the end.

Yeah,

I was curious when you're saying both the gas thing,

But also the glom,

I really like the word glom,

I just want to say it again,

Glom split,

Like,

For you to do the hentrix,

For instance,

Suggests that there's some transcendence of the glom split thing,

Or is it just like the dynamic in relationships?

Like,

Yeah,

You go beyond that,

Or you're now just,

Yeah.

So here's,

Here's my my sense of that,

From based on what they've told me,

Their ideas,

They're both like PhD psychologists,

So they have a lot more experience than I do in like,

You know,

Sort of the stages of development and how early trauma and childhood can affect us as adults,

You know,

That's not something that I have explored a lot in my career,

Nor is it of particular fascination to me,

When I work with people,

I'm more the type of person that's like,

Let's start now,

And work with now,

Right,

That's one of my specialties.

That's how I am.

However,

That's not how they are.

And I've learned a lot from,

From their interest in,

You know,

What does this remind you of like,

This conflict that you're in with your partner?

How is this familiar?

Because of course,

It's not originating now,

Right?

It's probably been repeated our whole lives.

So the glomer and splitter thing,

They actually credit it with conception from the very beginning.

Gloaming is the sperm and egg coming together,

You know,

And just bear with me for some of you might be rolling your eyes and being like,

Come on,

Let's just try it.

Gloaming is sperm and egg coming together.

And splitting is the cell division.

So they're both necessary,

Right?

There has to be a very intimate level of penetration connection,

You know,

Smushing together gloaming in order to create life and there has to be splitting.

So one of the things that I really have learned from them that you can try on and again,

In the moment,

I'd be curious how this lands for you is that they aren't mutually exclusive.

So they're actually we actually need both and both can exist at the same time.

This is something I work with couple with clients and with couples in particular on a lot.

But even internally,

Someone will usually have a story,

The inner sense that they can't have both,

Right,

They can't have a sovereignty or autonomy and deep connection,

Right?

It's got to be one or the other,

There has to be some sort of sacrifice.

And actually,

That's not true.

We can actually have both.

So in a glom split kind of relationship,

What I've discovered is the remedy is not so much transcending it but more because I think when you're a glomer,

You're glomer when you're splitter,

You're a splitter,

The glomer actually needs connection and reassurance,

The splitter actually needs distance and self connection with the self,

Right?

And those are needs that can't be transcended,

Right?

I think that's bullshit.

I think that's some sort of spiritual bypass,

We're then not meeting our needs.

So I think what can happen or what I've experienced when this works well is that I get what I need.

And so does he.

And that part of that starts by embracing this idea that the relationship is big enough to contain both.

So instead of me trying to control his glomming and say,

I'm going to be,

You know,

Consumed,

Overwhelmed,

Annihilated,

Destroyed,

You know,

Invaded,

Like,

What's your fear as a splitter,

That's mine.

Like,

If someone's glomming on to me,

I'm going to lose my autonomy,

I'm going to be consumed,

Right,

I'm going to be overwhelmed,

I'm not gonna be able to get free,

I'm gonna lose my freedom.

Yeah,

I'm afraid of like,

It sounds so bad,

But like being inconvenienced,

Like I sound like such a dick,

But like,

I just don't.

Like,

I'm especially like,

I can creative flows,

Like if something distracts me,

I get so mad at that thing.

Like,

I feel it's like so delicate.

And like,

If like,

My rooms left the mess,

And I feel like it's like,

It's kind of petty stuff.

But that's,

That's my biggest thing that I like to get pulled off my pass in some way.

Oh,

My God,

I love it.

That level of arrogance to me is so I find it incredibly hot.

Like,

I think that there's a lot in there.

That is remarkable.

In fact,

Like that,

If you share our society and our culture in general wouldn't.

That's something that you Yeah,

Like you said,

It sounds bad,

You know,

You feel embarrassed.

But I think that the gift in there or the sort of the high side of what you're talking about actually is deserves your attention.

I'd be really curious if you sort of examined that further.

I'm down.

Chantelle's down for me to really play that up.

We'll see.

Well,

I bet she might be I don't know.

I don't know how I don't know how far ranging these interviews go or how if there's anything off off limits for you to talk about.

Well,

Actually,

All right.

So I'll say this thing kind of off.

I mean,

Somewhat related.

After that,

Like tumultuous week we had we like we talked a lot,

Obviously processed a lot.

And we've been trying a 24 seven DOM sub relationship since my mind was going to Oh,

Okay,

Cool.

Yeah.

So that's where we're at.

We only do it five out of seven days a week.

So we have off days and stuff.

But it's been really challenging.

But it did solve a lot all the petty things.

Because like she's asking me to like,

Be what I would consider being a dick,

But with a lot of love and attention.

And all the things that I would complain about like these little things like leaving a mess here this or that,

Like I just tell her what to do.

So I'm taking full responsibility now.

So it's been fun,

But we're only a couple days into it.

So cool.

I feel really excited about that.

That sounds like a good direction to be going in for you to or an interesting a fruitful direction.

And part of it is because it brings us back,

I want to say something more about the globbing and splitting,

But I'm going to bookmark it in my brain and come back to it.

But this brings us back to my post yesterday on desperation,

Which is one of those feminine,

Very feminine qualities.

It's not that men are that the masculine is never desperate,

But I think it really lives in the realm of the feminine.

Rejection being one of the,

I think,

So native,

Normal,

Natural feelings that women in particular experience,

But that we absolutely do not want to show,

Right.

That was the real meat of that post was that me,

Especially as sort of a strong,

Independent,

Intelligent,

Powerful,

Ambitious woman,

The thought of being needy,

Desperate,

You know,

These these adjectives that are just,

You know,

The ways of being that we need to avoid.

What happens when we avoid it,

Though,

Is that we,

You know,

Really rip ourselves off and rip our partners off of getting to experience an aspect of womanhood that's actually really beautiful.

So that's what that's what I found.

And you can,

Whoever's listening can go read that post.

But what ended up happening was,

I finally let that desperate part of me out that just wanted to love and adore my partner that wanted to be touched.

And it wasn't,

It wasn't a calm,

Quiet,

Sort of sweet expression or feeling it was,

You know,

Like a banshee,

Like it was just roaring out of me.

And I was screaming into his ear,

Like begging and crying,

And there was snot all over me.

And I felt really embarrassed by that,

Because that's not something that I would normally allow,

You know,

In particular,

And I kept reaching for a Kleenex and trying to blow my nose.

And he was just holding me and he said,

You could just let it run,

Just let it run down my face.

And,

And this is a guy and I'm dating a guy right now I've been devoting,

You know,

My life to personal growth and self examination and spiritual practice really for since I was,

You know,

16 and I'm 39 now,

So it was a long time that I've done really rigorous work on exploring all sorts of modalities.

He really hasn't until very recently,

And the last couple years even.

So he's somebody who,

Though I think he's done it in his own way,

Doesn't have a lot of training or experience in,

You know,

How to be with women,

Let's say.

So this is just sort of his instinct.

He's not someone that probably has ever had a woman,

You know,

Drip tears and snot all over his life.

But he just said,

I want it because the more you let him talking to me,

The more I left that part of me out that desperate part.

It's just love,

Right?

It's so much love,

Adoration,

Desperation for connection,

That I think when it's when we take it all the way as women,

Our partner can actually feel it.

And my sense is that this might not be true,

You know,

Maybe that that certain men would react negatively to that.

But but my sense is that the when we react negatively to each other,

It's actually because we're doing the expression halfway,

Right halfway desperation becomes sort of Yeah,

Needy,

Picky,

Complainy.

And that's not very fun to be around or to listen to.

Yeah,

I love that you mentioned how he got hard during that.

Because Well,

That's been my experience with like emotional pouring outs with women,

Even if my mind is like,

Like,

Why is she like,

Like hanging on me,

But like,

My body still reacts,

I think there's just like this undeniable sense that is like this,

Like a lot of sensation and energy being put on you.

And no matter what I think,

Like,

My body's gonna have that reaction.

I love that.

Because like,

I thought I had the sense or the understanding as it was energy and whatever.

But like,

I was like,

Oh,

Do I have like this weird thing that I like seeing women cry?

Like,

What is this?

Like,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I found it.

Well,

I found that in about,

I don't know,

A bit more than 5050 of my clients,

At least are willing male clients are willing to tell me,

You know,

Some of them might feel it but won't tell me and some of them might just not know and some of them might not actually have that reaction.

But I would say just over half of them report that that a crying woman turns them on.

And not necessarily in a titillating way,

Right,

But in a deep,

Sort of,

Yeah,

Something I would say animal or that sort of beyond logic way.

Yeah,

One of my the first man that I was ever with who openly reported this,

It really blew me away because I'm very emotional and have been one of those people that,

You know,

From from parents from my parents telling me when I was young,

To men and telling me later that I cried too much and that I should sort of stop it right at that.

At some point,

I think it became uncomfortable because of men's incredible desire to protect women and make us happy.

So when we're crying,

You know,

They can often want want us to stop because they take it as a problem.

In the past,

That was what happened.

So the first partner I was with who said,

Oh my god,

Bring it on like I love it when you cry.

I couldn't believe it.

And he said,

Yeah,

It actually turns me out.

I said why he said because when a woman's crying,

I know the next thing that comes out of her mouth is going to be 100% true.

Like when she's in that raw state of emotion,

She can't lie to me.

And she can't conceal who she is.

And all I want to do is be inside of her and actually get to touch her heart,

Right?

Get to see what she's really made of gets a deeply connect.

And so crying is is a way of opening right and is a way that men get to come come in.

Yeah,

So maybe that's why you like it too.

Yeah,

Baby.

It's literally been since I was like,

My earliest memories like being four years old and like seeing a girl crying in kindergarten and just like I just I couldn't stop looking like it was just so interesting.

Yeah.

To me.

And it makes sense that you're with Chantel then.

Yeah.

It also made me think of when you're saying that he hasn't had training like,

In my eyes,

Like the fact that it feels so undeniably good when you're open is probably like the guide that guides him or makes him feel safe or feel good and reacting that way because even if he didn't believe that was the right way to behave,

It feels so good.

It's like,

How could you not it's like,

Exactly.

And I think of that in terms of children,

Too.

I'm a parent.

I have two kids.

My kids are much older now.

My son's 15.

My daughter's nine.

And so he just had a birthday.

Yeah,

I just turned 15 a couple days ago.

And I think that children are an amazing example for women in particular,

Because I work primarily with women to understand the power of vulnerability and the power of receiving in particular of being of using the desire to receive to elicit the kind of behavior that we want from someone else,

The kind of attention or action and,

And women often say,

Well,

How would how would you say,

Say,

How do I get more attention for my man,

Right?

And there's lots of things I would tell them,

But one of them is definitely to increase our desire to receive it,

Right?

Oftentimes,

A woman is complaining about her guy,

But it's actually unwilling to receive the kind of attention she's begging for,

Right.

And so kids are a great example where when a child runs to you or to anyone,

Almost anyone on the planet,

In pure need,

Right,

Whether they're crying,

And they need love,

Or because they're hurt,

Or whether they are happy,

And they just want to share it with you,

Right,

Either of those conditions elicit a similar response.

If a kid runs to you with their arms open,

Even if it's not your child,

99% of humans will reach down and pick them up and hold them.

Even though the kid has not asked,

They haven't said,

Will you hold me,

They haven't made any sort of directive,

They've literally just run towards you and thrown themselves at you,

Right?

It is an act of pure desperation,

Again,

Whether they're happy or whether they're sad.

And so I think it works the same way,

Like you're saying that isn't nobody needs training in order to react that way to a child.

It's just in ourselves,

It's in our DNA.

And it's been passed down through ancestry.

And so I think it's true that when we as adults even show ourselves that blatantly and vulnerably to each other,

It elicits this very primal human reaction.

And when we do it halfway or partway,

It elicits a different one.

And so again,

An example of a child if a child isn't in full,

You know,

That full arms wide open,

I'm throwing myself at you experience,

But is instead complaining or sort of halfway begging,

You know,

Whining for something.

Nobody likes that.

There's very few adults or parents enjoy that experience or react the way the child hopes the child is hoping to get a toy or to get attention.

But if they're,

You know,

Whining about it,

Or doing it halfway,

I know with my daughter,

I'm like,

No,

Like,

I don't,

I don't,

I don't want you to talk to me like that.

I don't like that.

It doesn't make me want to buy that Barbie for you.

Like,

I'm not inspired by that behavior.

But I am inspired by her raw expression need.

And,

You know,

Like,

Just her raw experience of her emotions,

I think is beautiful to be around.

Do you in any way guide your kids to make those requests in a way that feel good?

Like,

Is there a way she could arms wide open get that Barbie from you?

Um,

Was that too much power to give your children?

Yeah,

No,

No,

No,

It's not too much power.

It's more that,

You know,

I don't want to,

I don't want to,

You know,

Ever sort of encourage manipulation as far as,

You know,

Them learning like,

Oh,

If I if I ask in this way,

I'll get what I want.

And at the same time,

I am moved by by their pure desire.

I think it's I think it's it's more difficult with items,

Right?

Like,

Like with the item of Barbie.

I don't think that.

I don't know if there's a way she could ask me that would just automatically every time because she wants a new Barbie like every day,

Right?

I don't know if there's a way she could ask that would have me say I'd love to buy you more and more Barbies every day because there's something about that that doesn't inspire me in general.

But I would say that I actually treat my children the same way I would treat an adult as far as their level of consciousness because sometimes I think they have,

You know,

Even more access to consciousness than we do.

So the way I would do that with an adult is that until until the expression is is sort of purely matched.

And what I mean by that by is until until I'm able and willing to fully come out with it to the same degree that to the using the same language that I hear inside,

Right?

Often we,

We hear like in my example of desperation,

I hear in my brain,

Please don't leave me,

But I would but in my mouth,

I say,

You know,

Fuck you,

I hate you go away.

This is a very classic example.

And so,

You know,

With my kids,

One of the things that I do do with them is that I don't,

I don't sort of rescue them from their own experience and working working out in themselves how to say what they need and want.

So that if they're not fully willing to come out with it,

I don't push it,

Right?

Like I don't try to coach them towards expressing more.

And I also don't,

You know,

Get upset with them for that,

Because they're just finding their way just like the rest of us,

Right.

And I think there is some value to allowing that inner friction to keep happening where I want something,

But I'm not quite ready to say it.

And it's really hard for me.

And rather than sort of trying to,

You know,

Crack open that seed prematurely to just let that be true.

And sort of let the heat build inside until my interest in actually saying it is greater than my desire to avoid vulnerability,

Right.

And so I,

You know,

Sometimes I that's what I do with myself.

That's what I try to do with my partner,

Though,

It's tempting to come in there and poke it and say,

What's in the seed,

I want to see it now,

Rather than let it sort of mature on its own.

But that's what I do that with my kids,

Too.

So if they come at me with a whiny half ass sort of expression,

I'll just say thanks for telling me and then I'll move on right.

Like,

I really want this Barbie barn house set.

Oh,

That's great.

Thanks for telling me.

And then that's it.

I've more kid questions,

But that's probably another that's another podcast.

I'm curious.

It's my last like topic.

I you share about your relationship basically in real time.

How do you feel that affects the trajectory of the relationship?

How interesting.

I think it helps.

I think it helps because I think that one of the greatest things we can do in life in general,

But particularly in relationships,

Is to actually actually articulate and get present with what's going on in the relationship without trying to change it.

We may want to change it at some point.

But I think the first step is always just to squarely face what truly is happening.

Whether what's happening is what we call positive or negative,

Right?

It's actually irrelevant.

So one of the big missed steps that I see in clients or couples who are struggling,

Is a lack of articulating what happened in in an interaction.

Since that night of desperation,

Where I fully came out with it,

My relationship has been sort of we've been more distant than we were even before that happened.

And one of the reasons I think is because it was so intense,

Right?

We both had such a jarring,

Beautiful,

Vulnerable,

You know,

Sort of peak experience that we don't even know how to fully talk about it and integrate it.

So there's a little bit of,

You know,

Kind of looking at each other and being like,

Hi,

Like that happened last night at 2am.

And it didn't really happen,

Like,

Was that real?

And so I think that's the thing.

I think that the posting on Facebook helps because it allows me at least,

The medium to really articulate and explore what happened and what is happening.

And the more we can get present or that I can get present to what is occurring in my relationship,

The more I am able to sort of integrate the current my current experience and then be available for what's next.

And the being available for what's next is really important,

Because otherwise,

We stay hung up on something that happened,

You know,

510 50 years ago,

I've seen where that that one thing is still,

You know,

Nacking at the back of their heads and causing all this wreckage,

Simply because we didn't get present with it,

Whether it was,

You know,

When you said,

See,

What's an example,

Like,

You know,

When you looked at me that way,

When I asked for something,

Let's say I can't think of a good example,

I felt hurt,

Right?

But we bury something like that it causes all sorts of damage instead of just really getting present with,

Yeah,

I got hurt.

And now I'm telling you,

And now we can move on,

Because I actually got to feel what occurred in that moment.

Same with,

You know,

When we had sex the other night,

I completely fell in love with you,

And felt more open than I ever have in my life.

Saying not saying that will cause equal damage to the relationship.

So I think that for me,

At least getting to some a big expressor,

And I need a lot of expression,

Having the space to to get to share about it and write about it and and get present with it helps my relationship.

And it also sort of keeps keeps us keeps us both or keeps us honest and sort of on our game,

Because he's given me I asked him,

You know,

And with I asked him when we first got together,

I said,

I post everything on Facebook.

So if there's ever anything you don't want people to know that you should tell me,

Right?

And he said,

I'm an open book,

Like,

You're welcome.

I'm just gonna ask that.

How does he feel?

He loves it.

That?

Yeah,

That post in particular,

Though,

I asked him the next morning,

I said,

I'm gonna write about what happened last night.

Is that okay with you?

Is there anything you don't want me to say?

No,

Go for it.

And so I think there's also a way that it Yeah,

It keeps us honest with each other,

Because some of it is recorded for everybody,

Right?

What happened?

For everybody,

And for us to that a month later,

I can't write some of my articles to I go back and read them.

And I'm like,

Oh,

Yeah,

That was a really good point that I made.

And I forgot that I felt that way about him at that time.

And so there is a level of Yeah,

It keeps us sort of on our game.

Yeah,

I was just thinking it's such a trippy time we're in where like,

You have unlimited access to telling everybody what's going on for us.

Like before the internet,

You just have to like call a friend.

And then there's all these people like I randomly came across your experience,

Because it touched my girlfriend.

It was applicable to me.

And then like,

You get like consensus on your reality.

It's,

It's pretty sweet.

Yeah,

I think it's awesome.

I really appreciate it.

And for me,

In particular,

Because of the way that I experienced the world.

It's very beneficial.

Like one of the ways that I'm that I am here to participate in humanity is by having experiences and then getting to express them,

Right?

Someone once called me a messenger,

Like one of one of my talents is that I,

I go do it myself.

And then I sort of what's the word I'm looking for,

Like,

Synthesize it in my soul in my brain.

And then I tell other people about it.

And I hear that so often people say,

Just even on Facebook,

Like your posts,

Touch me,

I cried,

I related it to myself in a way that I never would have if you hadn't said it like that.

And so I think Facebook is and all social media is brilliant for that kind of sharing and expression.

And I think it's another place where what we spoke about just a few minutes ago comes into play,

There's a difference between full raw vulnerability to the depth that you're willing to go or anyone's willing to go about an experience and making it really accurate and potent,

As opposed to whining,

Right?

Some people whine on Facebook or complain,

And I'm not interested.

Like it doesn't certain people always write and say,

Oh,

That must be really hard.

And I'm like,

Fuck this,

Like,

I don't have any interest in commiserating with you,

Both privately or publicly.

I do like rants,

Though,

Because rants are overt,

Right?

A rant is actually taking that complaining energy,

Making it fun and entertaining,

Which which helps,

Right?

So it's like,

If you're gonna complain,

At least entertain me.

And if you're if you're gonna get vulnerable,

I'm always,

Always interested in reading about that.

Because I think our deep desires humans is to see each other's vulnerability.

Yeah,

I was just thinking you're such a beacon of like approval with social media,

And sharing and having your own bedroom.

It's great.

I feel so much better.

Yeah.

So where can people find more of your work?

And is there anything you want to let us know about?

Yeah,

Well,

People can find more of me,

You can find me on Facebook.

I'm 39.

So that's the medium I choose.

I have teenage,

My teenager is like,

Nobody uses Facebook anymore.

Mom,

Because only for old people.

But that's one of the places I love to express myself.

So you can find me at Facebook.

My name is Bez Stone.

My little Facebook handle is B z St,

Because Bez Stone was taken.

So it's best,

Which I thought was cute.

You can also go to my website at Bez Stone.

Com.

And you can find me on Facebook.

Com.

There's all sorts of stuff there links to all my articles I publish regularly,

On elephant journal and now on mind,

Mind body green.

I gave a TED talk a couple years ago on feminine orgasm,

You can see it there because I primarily teach about sex.

That's been the thing that I've been most passionate about is teaching women and couples a new kind of sex that's actually anchored around letting go,

As opposed to,

You know,

Running through the bases and doing the typical sex script.

So you can find lots more about what I teach.

And my offerings there.

And please just stay in touch.

One of my favorite things is when people,

You know,

Read an article of mine,

Hear an interview of mine,

And then they talk to me about it.

Because human interaction and getting to interact interact around my work is actually one of the things that I love to do most whenever sort of business coaches ask people in general,

How do you want your life to look right as a as a business person,

Or as a leader?

One of the things I always say is every day,

I would have a conversation about what I love and about my work.

So you can make my day by emailing me or messaging me on Facebook.

I'm glad we had this conversation.

Yeah.

It's been my day.

Yeah.

Me as well.

Thanks,

Buzz.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening.

Don't forget to subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher.

If you want to be a part of the virtual audience for future episodes,

Make sure to follow me at crowdcast.

Io slash Ruwondo.

See you next time.

You want a piece of me take the whole thing golden.