Worship, Respect, Inspiration | Mindful Q&A W/ Wendy Nash 40

In this fortieth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we delve into the areas of worship, respect, and inspiration. How can some activities like pujas (easily) get attributed to worship when they are not actually that? How can we not fall into (blind) worship? Where and how do inspiration and that which deserves respect play into this? And where does all this fit into meditation practice?

Transcript

Welcome, This is Josh integrating presence and inner skill. Today I have Wendy Nash back again. Wendy, How's it going? Yeah, I'm here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland in Caboolture, And how's it going? Pretty good actually. I'm feeling inspired. So not only in my dharma practice that's always inspiring, But also just generally in life. So, But we'll talk about that. Well, That's cool. Yeah, I'm interested in hearing about that too. Inspiration is always a great thing, Especially when I'm lacking it, Then it's even more important. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily lacking it, But I don't think I have a huge amount of it either. But so today's topic I've titled. Oh, Let's see here and get my screen up. I just accidentally closed out one thing, But it's called worship, Respect, Inspiration. And this is our 40th meditation Q&A that Wendy and I've done. So yeah, That's a little bit of a milestone. So that's cool. So here's the description. I put things actually, I don't need to read the first sentence. So in this 40th installment of the ongoing life series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, We plan to delve into the area of worship, Respect, And inspiration. How can some activities like pujas, Which we'll go into what that means if you're not familiar with the term, How can some activities like pujas easily get attributed to worship when they are not actually that? How can we not fall into blind worship? Where and how does inspiration and that which deserves respect play into this? And where does this all fit into meditation practice? So this came from a billboard that I saw from a Dharma friend, And I want to see if I can actually share it on screen. But what we'll see, Maybe I can, I'm not prepared. But maybe I can get that while while we're talking here if it's not too distracting. So, So let me just just describe that billboard before I throw it up. It shows the Buddha. This is a billboard in Thailand. It says the Buddha is not for decoration. Respect is common sense. So it shows a big red X over a Buddha head and saying no tattoos, Meaning no Buddha tattoos. And basically, Now I'm missing the other image. It's there's an image basically saying they're not for here. It's it's wrong to use symbols of Buddha in the bar for decoration or tattoos. This means no respect. And I just want to talk about this Buddha head to that's in a retreat center that I was at that is interesting and how this there's certain removals now of Buddha heads and, And whatever. So we can we can talk about that. But so I just want to throw it over to Wendy here to see what Wendy makes of all this and where we should start with this too. Yeah, It's an interesting thing. So a long while ago, I was in a cafe and they had a Buddha sitting on the counter and they had business cards on it. And it was like a business card holder. And so I said to one of the people behind the counter, I said, Would you have Mary or Jesus turned out she was French. So she deeply Catholic. And she said, Oh, No, This is completely offensive. And and I thought this was a really good way of describing it. Well, Would you have, You know, Mary or Jesus doing that, You know, And how how would that be? So I think we have as a sort of a non less religious society, Not understood that for some people, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Prophet Muhammad, Whoever it is, Are key figures. And you can't desecrate, You know, You know, What's the word? Desecrate? Desecrate? Yeah. No, This is a really, Really. So what I wanted to do, Actually, Because of the potentially inflammatory nature of if I get too far to one side or the other, I mean, I'm sure I'm going to maybe upset some Buddhists by not being reverent and respectful enough with some of the things I might bring up. And these aren't my personal beliefs or opinions. I just want to cover kind of the whole spectrum of this if we can't as much as we can, Within a wise reason, You know, And as respectful as we can, As kind of an outside, Like archaeologists looking at things or something like this. And then I'm, I could potentially do that. But also, To the, To the other end, Where that, That maybe I'm too religious around this, You know what I mean? Over, That's the other extreme kind of too fundamental and religious around this and not opening up, You know, Maybe too orthodox. So just, Just due to that, And then all the things in the world going on right now, Apparently, My, My partner, Read some things about more war mongering, And saber rattling, And war, Beating the war drums. And so, And some of this, I would imagine has religious undertones, Overtones, Involvements in how this could potentially, Even though we're putting it in context of Buddhists, How it could potentially be extrapolated out to other religions who actually do worship. So it is, It can be a potentially sensitive issue for, For people on both sides, Whether people think that religion is horrible, And it's a cause of a lot of problems, Or other people who say, It's because we don't have religions that there's, You know what I mean? So it's just on all sides, You know, They say not to talk about religion and politics in polite company. But this, This, This topic we're talking about does play into our meditation practice. So if, If we just did what I call the three breath highway, So I like to just close our eyes and take just, Well, A couple deep breaths before you can do the deep breath, Or the three breath highway, And come into the body. And just follow three full entire breaths from every moment of the inhale, To any pause, And then every moment of the exhale. So I'll give a silence here. It doesn't have to be every single moment if you can't do, And it doesn't have to be exactly three breaths, Just staying with every moment you can. Inhaling, Pausing, Exhaling, Pausing. And however it is, It's okay. And I've just noticed that my breath is really kind of shallow and fast now, Because of I've had a cup of coffee this morning, Which I normally don't before these things, I like to do tea. And, And then with that, I'd actually like to have Wendy do a brief reflection on loving kindness, Because that's her main practice, And how she does it. Sure. But I do want to say a highway is like, That is an inflammatory word for me, Because that's about it. That's all the car dependence. We do not worship the car, Just say. That's right. If you're near a highway, You definitely need this, And we can change it to the bike path, Right? We can say maybe a bike path, Or yes, There we go. Yes. How we're getting on someplace where we can both be challenged extremely, But also it can be a benefit to us that we have a path, Right? All right. So we'll do, I'll do my my version, Which is very hands on, Very safe, Straightforward, You don't need to close your eyes. But if you feel like it, By all means. And basically, What what I like to do for loving kindness meditation is to notice the small gestures that help you feel at ease. So for instance, Josh open today thinking, I'd be really good to make sure that people who might feel unsettled by the topic would be would like to feel at ease. And so he created a meditation and then he thought, Well, I too would like to do that. And he knows that loving kindness meditation is an important aspect for me. And then when I raised the name of it, That he took that with some humility and response, Which shows just within these few minutes, How important it's been to just appreciate these small tiny gestures that Josh has helped us feel at ease. And that applies to anyone anywhere. So for instance, Wherever you are, Yeah, Where whatever you were doing this time yesterday, Just think back to what was somebody doing to help you feel at ease? You know, Whatever time of the day it was. So for me, It's coming up to dinner time, Did somebody cook? Did somebody clean for you? Did somebody text you something like somebody messaged me today and said, You might be interested in this? And it was actually two people did that today. And it was such a lovely gesture. And so just looking for these small things, Did somebody turn up to a meeting prepared? Josh came prepared today. Did somebody pay an invoice on time a supplier? So these are small things perhaps we can take for granted. But just noticing any small acts in the last 24 hours, That just made your life easier for the fact that if it hadn't been there, You would have really felt irritated. So these are small acts to help you feel at ease. So that's the that's the journey. I don't know if that was okay. But this is so beautiful. And just let me reinforce this, Because it also helps mindfulness and positive counters our negativity bias, Because I know that a lot of times I'm looking in the problem stand out, You know, And I'm not always like this, Like this is an artificial container, Right? And Wendy helps provide that space and helps draw this out, Which I would say this, This is true and accurate. It's just not, I'm not just not like this all the time, Right? So this is a special container, Where this a certain qualities can be amplified, Just like Wendy's practice too. And it's authentic. It's not lying or pretending some kind of, You know, Some kind of affirmation that, You know, That I hope to get to someday. It's real true, It's happened. It's inclining the mind towards something helpful. It's taking time, Then we have to review, Right, We have to be mindful and use memory and recall things. So it's helping us and then it's helping a condition to be on the lookout for this, To condition the mind to see this and then to not as a theoretical thing, But like an energetic feedback and can feel how beneficial this feels. And it's also, I just go on and on, Like it's conducive for relationships and interactions as well, Because you're automatically showing value towards someone else and not taking that for granted, And how we're all interdependent on each other. So yeah, I can't say enough good things about this, This, This version of loving kindness that Wendy puts forth. It's so, It's so beneficial. You know, And speaking of relationships, My partner, You know, We have a relationship like any other relationship. And every now and again, I get irritated with him, Because that's what I get irritated with myself, Why wouldn't I get irritated with somebody else, You know, So of course, I'm going to do that. And it just means that that time when I want to kind of get irritated, Which is often, It just I, Instead of being irritable, I just go, Thanks for doing this, Thanks for doing that. And we both do it. And it just really creates such a nice space. So it's interesting how you talked about the negativity bias. I don't think I've got that anymore. Because I think I'm just so I've been training in this for five years now, Maybe a bit longer. I'm just always looking for the good stuff and always noticing everything positive. And yeah, So things don't work my well, But work my way. But actually, I'm so trained to look for the good stuff. I kind of go, Ah, And then I go, Oh, Well, There you go. And it's also helpful to want to have that momentum I found when I did this practice more, Then it's when we really faced with something really negative in life, It helps counterbalance that. Because I reflecting on how I've been more negative, Nancy, Or, You know, Been in that kind of tailspin of negativity, Then the positivity helps balance that out as well, You know, And we're looking, We're trying to incline the heart and mind to things that are beneficial for us and for others, Especially in the long term. Now, I'm not saying that. So I guess the counterbalance is not to and Wendy's really good about calling out BS. That's what I another thing I really appreciate it. And she does it in a kind, Helpful way too. So this is this, You know, This is it helps condition the heart to deal with things that are negative and not beneficial in life and how then to go about the best way to deal with those to view with those situations and instances, And then how to respond to them. Because if, If I don't have enough resources to deal with that, Then the tendency for me is just to match the same type of energy and just continue to go down the toilet or down the spiral, Right? If I don't have like a reference point and a strength of the opposite type of energy, And view to bring to a situation. So yeah. Well, You know, We talked about inspiration. So that's inspiring. And I recently feel inspired because, Well, Maybe I'll talk about that a little bit later on. But I find that a really inspiring practice, Because then it makes me recognize the goodness in others all the time. So I really like it, But there's no polyandering. So look, I have to deal with, I've got a not for profit, I have to deal with state departments, I have to deal with, You know, Software producers, I have to deal with all that. And yep. And I don't want to deal with it. And I get really irritated by the letters and interactions and all that sort of stuff. But nonetheless, I think it's more that we just aren't looking for the other stuff to counter it. So that's that. So I think, I don't know, I found that a very inspiring practice. And I think that's why my partner speaking before, I think that's why we managed to have such a high level of respect for each other, Because he then notices every time I notice what he's doing. So it doesn't give the opportunity for resentment to arise, Because he knows that I'm always noticing everything he does. So it's a sort of a respecting little, I don't know, Ping pong or something we've got going. It is. Yeah, It's compounding as well, Right. And, You know, Especially for guys, I think is it's a big deal for guys to be respected or disrespected. You know what I mean? So if you, You know, Traditionally speaking, The masculine tendency, I think these this day and age, It's really kind of a big, Bigger deal for guys, I think is this respect or lack of respect. And yeah, We can we can go into that too. And then also value, We show that we value and things are validated, When they're kind of we get external reinforcement, And external cues and indications that something is valuable, Something is valued. Yeah. So in that's kind of a feminine tendency, Maybe traditionally, And so both it reinforces and helps both of these things. Yes. So yeah, So I don't go with a whole masculine feminine. I'm just not a feminine person at all. You know, I just get cranky, And I have to work with that. And I, So I don't, I don't go with that sort of stuff. I'm much more interested in introverts and extroverts, I find, And it's Yeah, But, But I think everybody wants to be respected. No one wants to be taken for granted. And I think that often, Everybody takes everybody a little bit for granted. And, And that practice of just saying thank you, Every time you do something. Every time the other person does something for you. It just is fantastic. And the other thing to do is to say sorry, And that's respectful as well. And you know, It just seems like it's nothing, Why should I say sorry, And just like doesn't really matter. Just say sorry, Like, No one likes to upset anybody. I'm sorry, I upset you. It, I found in relationships to it saves a lot of time, Hassle, And trouble and, And squabbling is just come out as soon as I can admit my, My shortcomings, You know, And yeah, It takes it takes a lot of strength and courage to do that for some people too. And I like just that, Like you say, Making it habitual in a way, It doesn't mean that I'm less than or anything like that. It's for, I feel like the greater balance and harmony of, You know, The relationship, Which then can have a snowball effect, And help those around us and those we interact with too. So yeah, It really is. And I'm, I think I'm learning at the hard way more. It's like, I should get that quicker, I feel, But better late than never. And did you use the word highway again? No, I don't think I did, Actually. Okay, I misheard. I was slightly distracted by we've got a couple of comments here. One is by flight because which is one of those random kind of are you guys on a date, Whatever, Not interested. So don't post stuff that's not about meditation. And then somebody's written Dave Thomas 30 got Josh, What are you on? And I think that's also an irrelevant thing. So I think we'll skip that one. So if you're hoping for an answer to that, Delete. The the trolls are out. We don't we're not feeding the trolls, Right? Yeah, But yeah, I'll just just to transform that into some playful, Humorous guy, Banter, Let's just say that and just a ha ha, That's funny, Dude. Something like that. But okay, So but maybe that's also an indication to go ahead, Wendy. Yeah, So I looked up the etymology of the word worship. So respect and inspiration is one that sort of ones that we talk about pretty commonly here. And worship comes from the old English word, I'm just looking up in one of the AI things. And it says, Worship comes from the old English word, Worth ship, Pronounced worth ship. But it's got funny letters in there. And it said, Which meant the condition of being worthy, Or honor, Dignity, Glory. So worth means worthy or valuable, And ship, Skip Skype, Is state condition ship, As in friendship or leadership. By the 13th century, Worship began to take on religious connotations. So it didn't actually start there. It just meant that it's worthy full. It's a state of work. So that is that. So that's, And I think, I think that makes it much more in that way. Okay, So by the 13th century, So 1200, Something or other, Worship began to take on a religious connotation. And connotation, Our friend M. Reid is here. Hello. So lovely to see you again. Really nice. Really nice to have you back. Worship began to take on a religious connotation referring to the act of showing reverence, Devotion, Or honor to a deity or sacred object, Hence its relevance to us today. It has also retained its secular meaning, Referring to honor or respect shown to someone of high status. For example, We worship, You know, Royalty or whatever. Modern usage today, Worship primarily refers to religious devotional rituals, Attending a worship service. It can also describe deep admiration or love for someone or something, E. G. , She worships her favorite musician. So this is completely different than what I take worship to mean now, You know. Respect is, From the modern day, At least connotation that I have of worship, Is that worship can be potentially distorted, That there's no kind of thought process involved or wisdom involved, That it's maybe like an automaton on automatic, And that I'm giving my energy away mindlessly. So I don't know if that's an accurate refraction, But that's kind of what I, When I think of worship, That's what I kind of think of that, Right? Now, That's different from, Like you're saying, The etymology. So, And I would say I'm not too far off maybe in what people think about worship or the way it's sometimes used these days. Now, Honor and respect might be similar to that, But it's not what I just laid out there, But it's different. If I respect something, There's a kind of a, Okay, I, Some people, I guess, Do it on automatic pilot without thinking, Or they do it in fear, Out of fear, Or without vetting if it's worthy of honor and respect or not. They just do it for other reasons. But yeah, So the reason this also came up is because I just got back from a meditation retreat, Like at a monastery, Right, A winter retreat, Where we were doing puja pretty much many days. And so let's just, For people that don't know puja, How maybe I would describe it as just more literally in this context, You go early, And in the morning, You're doing silent meditation. And then after that period of silent meditation, Which is maybe around 40 minutes to an hour, Then we're doing some chanting out of a chanting book. And it's about basically Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and various themes, For the most part, Let's just say to simplify it. And yeah, And then that's pretty much what it constitutes. And then in the evening, It's the opposite or reverse where you're doing some chanting first, And then and then doing the silent sitting. But that's, That's the kind of then there's a huge, There's a Dhamma hall, Right, There's a huge Buddha statue of Buddha Rupa at the front, Candles and incense are lit, There's monastics and robes. And so we can talk about all these externalizations. And there's also bowing involved. So that's, I think, Very foreign, At least for me in the West to do these type of things, Right. So from an outsider with no context, Just walking in and observing this from the outside, It looks like a worship like, Like I was, You know, Raised in Lutheran, Which is a Protestant Christianity. And so they're basically, You know, The things they say that the hymns they sing, You know, The sentiments that are expressed, Even though it's kind of dialed back and more, I would say, Repressive, That that is, Yeah, It's, It's, That's known as worship. That's my reference point for what worship is. And they're explicitly acknowledging that it's worship in Christianity. This, Some people would say this is worship, And some Buddhists say this is worship. But some, Like me, I wouldn't consider that. And we have to go into details of why I wouldn't consider worship that I would consider it more inspirational, There's the word, Right, And respectful, And conducive to meditation practice and faith and wisdom. So there's kind of maybe some splitting hairs here and some fine lines that we can, I don't know how granular we want to go into details on this. But I have put the image up now for this as well. And maybe we can talk about, Wendy already mentioned one story around this, There's so much to say for me around this, But I don't want to talk the entire time, And throw it back here to Wendy, And see where we should go with all this. So, It's interesting, Because I have a completely different take on the word worship. I was more like that with devotion. I'm like, I'm not devoted, I'm not going to be devoted. So I had a funny reaction. And I think it's just my own childhood, Something or other, I don't really have that. But it's interesting, I'm supporting a friend at the moment, Who's got some mental health issues, And some marital issues, And stuff like that. He follows a different religion. And I always encourage him to really think about the, And he's very attentive to the book of that religion. And so I encourage him always to kind of, Well, What is the essence of that? So rather than going through the ritual of it, What is the essence? And it turned out that he had been doing things, Sort of, Because he felt he should. So through the ritual, What you would call the worship. And then I was going, But you don't really practice it. And I think it's because it's got this punitive, You should be, You know, Doing this, This, This as part of your rituals, Your worship, You're showing your devotion. And, Yeah, It's been a very interesting experience for me to sort of see somebody who is very, Very faith oriented, Actually, To go, Actually, I don't really practice because I just, I do go through the motions of it. Whereas I, Because I, I mean, He was born into that religion, Whereas I'm, I was born into Christianity, I suppose, But not really. And then I have found my own path into Buddhism. And so I think I, For me, I mean, Maybe it's just me in the way that I see it, But I see it's about practice. There's no point for me participating in a religion, Unless I want to take it with some, Unless I want to become a better person. I don't want to become one of these earnest, Boring, Self-righteous people. I can be like that. I've been like that. I'm still like that. But I think it is important also to recognize that, I don't know, Like everyone's trying their best, But I really dislike the whole ritual, Stepping it through the sun, What do they call it, The Sunday Christian or something, You know, I don't like that at all. Because to me, It just feels fake and insincere. And I don't care what I'm doing. I don't like it when people are faking insincere. And that doesn't apply to, That doesn't apply just to religion. So yeah. I couldn't agree more, Wendy. And that's the whole point of doing this, Because when I found myself doing the Puja, When I'm not, When I wasn't mindful, I found myself potentially going, Falling into that trap and just going on pilot. Everyone around me is doing the same thing, Right? And as soon as I lose heedfulness or mindfulness, Then I'm just kind of going through the motions because everybody else is, And I'm doing this every day. And I don't want to do that because that's, To me, That's not helpful. And then that could fall into worship. And I don't want to do that, Right? But Wendy says, How is this going to be a support for my practice? And how is this going to be a support for the betterment of my life and those around me, Instead of just falling into another ritual that I do every day and do it mindlessly? And it's just on automatic, Right? So that's the potential danger of this. But that's not the intent in the practice behind it, I feel with these Pujas. Now I can obviously see how people can mistake it for that. And I know firsthand how easy it is to actually fall into that. But I can also see how this can be a very good mindfulness practice in the intentionality behind it. And also when I'm, When I'm go to bow, Then I, When I'm mindful, I bring to the heart, Okay, How authentic do I feel doing this? Sometimes I feel, Oh, This doesn't feel natural. And then notice that as a, As a response in the heart. Other times, It does feel authentic and natural, And out of sincere honor and respect, And one that's going to benefit my practice and those around me by showing respect and honor to that, Which is deserves it basically, And is worthy of it. And, And because of that is helpful. And yeah, This, This notion, Reminds me to, I want to say this of the the kind of head of the Western Sangha and Thai force tradition of Ajahn Chah, The monasteries, Who's been practicing at it in, In England. Lamport Suchito, Ajahn, I'm sorry, Ajahn Sumedho, Lamport Sumedho, He's famously known for, And I'm going to take this out of context a little and not paint the context, But it's just kind of almost a shocking statement. He's known for saying, If I'm getting this right, I don't want a bunch of bloody Buddhists, You know, And I thought that was actually really inspiring in a way a little bit controversial. But what that for to me, What that points to, And I could be getting it wrong in our context is that he doesn't want a bunch of followers and worshippers and people that take this on as a religion. What he wants is sincere practitioners who are going to, You know, Have honest, True faith as best as they can, And confidence and, You know, The qualities that are going to be helpful, And also their own sincere practice and ability to verify this faith and confidence with their own wisdom or the cultivation of wisdom through their practice of meditation is kind of what I get about this. Yeah. So I guess the other thing to do is talk about the opposite of this is dishonor and disrespect. So I've got the, Can you see the billboard up here in the screen? Okay, So yeah, We got it up now. I can take it down a little bit after we talk about it, But yeah. Just trying to turn my light so I don't look like I'm sitting in the dark. Yeah, It's an interesting thing that, You know, What does it mean? Like, Who am I to decide what is, What is fake? What is sincere? But it's true. Interestingly, I read an article about tattoos, And there's a whole lot of people who've got this eye disease because of the ink in tattoos. So there's some, Yeah, So I think they look like it's a cancer. Let me see if I can pull it up. So it just, That's an aside. So apart from anything, Don't get a tattoo of a Buddha, But don't get a tattoo actually. Tattoo in general, Yeah. I've had a guest on recently that talked about the dangers of tattoos, Or I haven't heard him say, But he recommends it. It's almost more rebellious not to have a tattoo these days anyway, Because so many people have them. So here it is, A small but increasing number of Australians are being diagnosed with a rare tattoo related eye condition. It's known as tattoo associated uveitis, And can cause permanent vision loss. So it's to do with the chemicals they use in the ink. Yeah. And they're wandering around the body. So that's, Yeah. And it's interesting because a lot of people who are really into a lot of natural stuff get tattoos, And I'm like, They don't recognize that that's just another thing. So yeah, Interesting. So Emery has said authentic living, The only way to live. Well, It would be nice if we could all do it, But imagine if you were in a really horrible place and actually being authentic created problems, Then what do you do? Well, It's a really good point. And so I think we kind of each know that for ourselves. That statement I take to mean that people that are fake, Right? That statement is meant for people that kind of know they're kind of lying to themselves and that they're not being true to themselves or having honesty. So that's when I find it's really, But yeah, Just let's preface that with just because I'm authentic doesn't mean that I don't have to be ethical now because, You know, I'm just going to be however I want and be real, Right? That's not what we mean by, At least that's what I take it to mean. So that statement, I think it's meant for people that are just, Okay, They see something and they want to pretend to be a certain way because of certain reasons, Right? Yeah. And so, Yeah, It's a good point, Winnie, Because the other extreme of that, It can be overdone. Oh, Hey, I'm real. I'm honest. I'm just going to speak truth the entire time and not have any regard for anything else. So, Which is a good point here. So yeah, When we do this talk, Just reminding of why it's speech here to keep myself in check. The first one, Is it true? That's the most important, You know, Is it honest and true to the best of my knowledge right now? Then is it kind? Because then we can be inflammatory and cause, Which the next one, We want to make it for concord instead of division. So that's where the kindness helps out to bring concord instead of division. And then is it the right time to say this? And actually, If I push it a little bit too far, Maybe it's not the right time to go into religious fervor for some or because of the state of the world right now. So is it the right time to say it? And then is it helpful? And then is it necessary? Is this really necessary to say? And that's a tough one, Because with yeah, Always chatting. So Emery said move. I think it means authentic living. The only way to move. I think that's what I guess, Maybe to move about in the world. Yeah, We can we can ask for for clarification. Yeah. She said silence has power as speech does knowing when to do one over the other. A great chat. Thanks. It's always lovely to have you here. I think you know, There is something about the a pregnant pause or you know, Silence is louder than words often. So there's that too. It's a response as well. Choosing to remain silent is a choice in response as well. You know what I mean? Not to speak out on something not to say something to hold back is a type of response as well. So let me. So we've talked a little bit. Sorry, I get this. We've talked a little bit about, You know, The disrespect. So for me, That, Let me just say the Buddha head. It's if you don't know this, Then then maybe fly in the radar. And so education, From what I understand, Some of these Buddha heads have been ripped off of statues and things, You know, Like as kind of a well, If you if you're after someone's head, Right, Some warring cultures used to take it as a trophy. So they would cut off people's heads, Put it on a stake, You know, Put it for display and say, OK, This is what happens to people to do this. This is our prowess as warriors and things like that. So I'm taking some people interpret it as that, Right. They desecrate the Buddha, Which in itself, You know, Is just a form. So this is again, This is a complex issue. From what I understand, Actually, The Buddha, If we're going to be strict about this, He didn't want a lot of religious imagery around. To begin with, I think there was only approval of like footprints, A wheel, An empty throne, Trying to think of a few other ones. But over time, Those became like because of our I would say I can't speak for everybody because of our lack of decline in understanding and wisdom that those then became those images that were approved. If I'm getting that right, Someone chime in if I'm getting that wrong, Then meant nothing. And so they were kind of empty and hollow. So then we needed a more a Buddha Rupa, Like is a Buddha form to then have a reminder of like what this notion of the Buddha is or was and what it represents. So then we have that. And to me, It depends how we use that. Yeah, It's a reminder. And Wendy wants to jump in here. Sure, Go ahead. I do. I do. The Gandhara Buddha, Which is the one that we see everywhere, Which is the robes and everything like that. So Alexander the Great, Who was great, I think, According to his own legend, Rather than anything that anybody else did, Because he was pretty ruthless and nasty. He died at 33, Interestingly, Didn't live a long life. But he brought it over from Macedonia. So it's the Roman kind of robes and Greek robes that we're seeing. That's it is he's buff Buddha. You know, He's not emaciated, Is he? He's strong and he's tough and all the rest. So I'll look up the history. Sure, Sure. And that's my understanding. That's one version. That's right. That's one version. We do have like an emaciated Buddha that was before he was Buddha, You know, As he was an ascetic. But that's not a common one. We do have thinner Buddhas. You know, There's there's Buddha rupas from Burma that aren't as, You know, Big and buff and Romanesque. Let's just say, So there's various different types of Buddha images. Where I was going with this, Though, Is okay, It's like, What is the intention in the heart? And what is this respect now? And I also go into the Zen thing that goes to the other extreme of how I wouldn't say extreme, But points out that some people are taking this over being over reverent towards it, And almost religious towards it, And then maybe mistaking the image for the actual thing and being overly, Overly protective of it. So let me just read this little Zen story here that talks to the opposite of this. So on a cold winter night, I don't know how to say this I KK you why you a caillou was staying in a temple freezing, He took a wooden Buddha statue and burned it in the fire to keep warm. The caretaker was horrified. How dare you burn the Buddha? I eat you calmly poke through the ashes with the stick. The caretaker asked what are you doing? He replied, I'm looking for the sacred relics, Surya. So what this is really that this is what happens when you when you kind of cremate a body. And there's things left in the body that science can't explain. And some of them look like gems, Some little things remaining that should have burned up for regular people. But there's now things in the ashes. So back to the story, The caretaker said, But it's only wood, There are no relics in it. And then you answered, If there are no relics, Then it's just wood, Why not burn it? Later, When the caretaker saw it you bowing to a stone by the road, He asked, Why bow to that? If you replied, If you can burn a Buddha, You can bow to a stone. And there we are. So I've looked up through my AI thing, The evolution of how the Buddha was depicted in art is a fascinating journey. So it's got pretty bad text. But anyway, Reflecting changes in religious thought, Cultural exchange and artistic traditions. Here's a concise history. So the anicot and iconic symbols, The fifth to the first century BCE, In the earliest period, The Buddha was not depicted in human form. Instead, Artists use symbols to represent his presence and teachings, The Dharma wheel, Footprints, Empty throne or bodhi tree, Lotus flower or a stupa. So early Buddhists may have avoided human depictions due to the influence of aniconism, Avoiding idolatry, Because the Buddha's physical form was considered too transcendent to represent. Anthropomorphic depictions, First century CE onward, The shift to human depictions of Buddha began around first century CE, Influenced by several factors, Gandhara and Mathura schools, Which is the first to third century. Gandhara, Modern day Pakistan, Afghanistan, Under Greco Roman and Persian influence, The Buddha was depicted as a human figure with Hellenistic features, Wavy hair, Draped robes and a serene expression, Hardly Asian. This style reflected the Greek artistic tradition, The Gandhara Buddha. Mathura, Which is in India, The Buddha was shown with Indian features, Wearing a monastic robe and often with a halo. These depictions emphasise his spiritual authority and divine nature. Key features, Ushnisha, Cranial bump, The urna, The third eye, The mudras, The hand gestures. Why the change? Cultural exchange, The Silk Road, Facilitated the blending of Greek, Roman and Indian artistic styles. Devotional needs, As Buddhism spread, Followers wanted tangible images for worship and meditation, There's your thing. Mahayana Buddhism emphasised the Buddha's divine and compassionate aspects, Encouraging more human-like representations. So as it spread across Asia in the fourth to thirteenth century CE, China became, Buddha became more round and serene, Reflecting Confucian and Taoist ideals of harmony. Southeast Asia, Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Depictions include elaborate headdresses, Ornate robes and mudras, Blending Indian and Indigenous styles. In Tibet, It's often shown with intense expressions and intricate mandalas. In Japan, The Buddha's image became more abstract and symbolic, With influences from Shinto and Zen. The buff Buddha, Which is what I called it, As a jolly round figure, Also called laughing Buddha, Or Budai, Is a misconception. Budai is a hotel in Japan. The 10th century Chinese monk, Known for his laughter, Kindness and large belly. He was not the historical Buddha, But became a folk symbol of happiness and abundance. Confusion over time, Budai's image merged with the Buddha's in western pop culture, Leading to the fat Buddha stereotype. Depictions of Siddhartha Gautama, The historical Buddha, Remain slender and serene in traditional Buddhist art, Reflecting his ascetic root origins. So there's reclining Buddha, Which is in Thailand, Obviously. Standing Buddha shows him performing miracles of teaching, And cosmic Buddha, Abstract formless representations in esoteric traditions. So it just depends on what your thing is, Your cultural, Artistic representations. So yeah. Continues to evolve, I think. And so why is this all important? You know, Why is this all important for like meditation practice? And, You know, One might say, Well, This is all superficial, This is external trappings, You know, Where's the real internal? And I would agree with that to a certain degree. It's just that we normally don't interact in our waking life in the external world like that, You know, Unless you're a really deep, Accomplished practitioner, You know, That you can see through these, These changing form, You know, Forms in the external. But for a lot of us who are not that accomplished and wise yet, And you can see that these images are very powerful, Right? They're huge. They evoke emotions or emotions are with them, We turn on the news and how we can get triggered out by just seeing certain images, How watching a movie can be completely involved in law. So images are very striking and powerful. And, You know, Going to a monastery, But it's not just some book or some idea or, You know, A statue or some guy on an island in Denmark, You know, Practice talking really good stuff. But like, Is that real? You know, Is how is he when the camera goes off and things like this? No, You go, You can go to these places and monasteries today, You can see people, Venerables that are wearing these robes, And they're holding each other to account of this very high standards of conduct and practice. And of course, They're not perfect either. But there it's a living, Breathing tradition today that they're open to, You know, Seeking the truth of the way things are, And the best way to go about it for their own well being and that of those around them. And so it's not it's a it's a real living tradition. And that visual images are very powerful. But at the end of the day, How is all this affecting the heart and mind, Right? This is not an abstract all mental thing. Not all emotional either. But like, Where's the balance of heart and mind? What is the benefit? And what are the drawbacks of all this and how I'm seeing it, Viewing it and responding to it? You know, Where's the balance? Yeah. So, Emery says, You asked the question, Wendy, What does it one do in a not so nice environment? Etc. I answer that move, Walk away. So that's where that. Oh, Yes. Got it. Okay. Yes, Yes. So, Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. So we've still got another 15 minutes. And so I guess images of I mean, Anything can be good or bad. And often I don't know that we know what is good or bad. And I I don't know. Do we have to be perfect? No such thing. So I guess, In terms of worship, Respect, Inspiration. If someone's just going through the motions, How bad is it? Does it mean that, You know, In 10 years down the track, When it suddenly goes, Oh, Actually, Now some terrible calamity happens. And they go, Ah, That's what that means. And they take it to heart. So is that good enough? It's a really good point, Wendy. And I think that's for each individual kind of to know for themselves and figure out for themselves. So here's I wonder if it's okay, This this some of this passage from Ajahn Suchito. And I think this is really the heart of what kind of puja is. So it's a ritual that brightens the heart. Do you think it would make sense to read that? Oh, Yeah. Excuse me. How rude am I? I know it's okay. Maybe I'll just read a couple of things. And so this kind of is the whole point behind this. For those who look at this and say, You know, Maybe this is pointless, Or what's the point of this? So in Buddhism, And other religions, And this is from Ajahn Suchito, In Buddhism and other religions, Access to indwelling in the heart tone of bright kama is associated by devotion and recollection. In Buddhism is called puja, An act of raising up and honoring that which is worthy of our respect. The very fact that there are human models and actions that one can feel deep respect for is in itself a blessing to take note of. Honoring opens and uplifts the heart. With puja, We attend to skillful felt meaning, Linger there and allow the effects to nourish the chitta, Which is the heart mind. From this basis, It's likely that inclinations or even specific ideas in line with bright kama will arise, Either that or the mind easily settles into a state that supports meditation. This is how and why one should linger in any bright kama. So in the act of honoring the Buddha, One first opens the heart in respect and brings to mind the meaning of an awakened one, Someone with deep clarity, A speaker of truths that permeate and bring healing to the human condition, One accomplished in understanding and action, A sage whose teachings can still be tested and put into action. If one has a Buddha image, It's something that should be held with respect. One cleans it, Illuminates it with light and offers flowers and incense to it. We place it on an altar and bow to it and chant recollections and teachings. This is not a mindless activity. We use ritual means and resound words and phrases because this full engagement embodies and strengthens the quality of respect in a way that thinking can't. With the openness of heart that these attitudes bring, Any aspect of the teaching that's brought to mind goes deeper. The act of offering that begins a puja is a case in point. Offering flowers symbolizes bringing forth virtue, Offering light is about bringing forth clarity, And incense does the same for meditative concentration. In this way, Puja introduces the heart to important dhamma themes. So and then one more, I'll just read another one paragraph of puja is especially helpful when people perform it as a group, Then we are participating in the dhamma as both the expression and the way of awakening as well as the in the collective commitment to an engagement with that dhamma. This collective engagement ritualizes the sangha that is the assembly of disciples. Chanting in a group has a harmonizing, Settling effect. Sonorous and unhurried, It steadies bodily and mental energies and supports an atmosphere of harmony with fellow practitioners. Tuning and participating brings us out of ourselves and into deep resonance with heart impressions of the sacred. We can be touched by a sense of timeless stability, Purpose, And beauty. If these intentions, Felt senses, And recollections are established regularly, We know where to find good heart, How to attend to it, And how to allow ourselves to be uplifted. Such kamma feels bright, And by kamma here means action. So yeah, It's this kind of, That's the kind of sentiment that's, When I'm not mindful of that, It's easy to fall away and fall into worship. But that's the whole point of kind of puja, Having a Buddha image and going through different kind of rituals and practices and chanting and things like that. So yeah, It's easily confused as otherwise, Especially I think in the West, When we have this, When I have this other notion of what this is, Where you go to church, You're just repeating and believing without, You know, Really verifying. And not that there's anything wrong. Actually, It's commendable to some degree, Because other, Having no ethics, Or having kind of just falling into heedlessness, And doing things mindlessly, That is a better alternative, Especially to start with, Than the alternative I find, Perhaps. Yeah. Oh, Wendy, I can't, So I'm, I'm not hearing you, Wendy. That's all right. That's okay. My mistake, I turned it on to mute. Okay. Emery says, Thank you for this chat was very insightful. I also look into the etymology of words. Thank you both for this chat. Nice to be here listening in. So always great to have Emery here. Appreciate that. Yes. Yeah, I was thinking about the word worship, And puja and sort of ritual process. And I'm wondering if what you're describing is the empty worship. Like to me, You worship is worship, You know, It's just, I worship, Whatever. And, And I think what I'm hearing is, If it's empty, And if, Like, The thing that bothers me more is not so much with your mindful in the moment, But that you are a Sunday Christian, For lack of a better word. And I think that makes it harmful. So even if you fall for you're not perfect, There's something about being, Say, For instance, In a, In a meditation place, And doing one thing, And then you're different rest of the week, Or when you're outside there. And I think that's really, Really, And then you're self righteous about how good am I because I go to the church, The synagogue, The mosque, The temple. But yeah, And I think it's that that causes the problems. That's me anyway. That's so well put. I mean, I really couldn't put it more clearly and concisely than that, Wendy. And that's what it's about. And this is where, And even that's not perfect, Too, So if we do find ourselves in that situation, Okay, Now what do I do about that? How can then I be more authentic and rectify, Or how do I address that if I find myself in that position where I'm actually being, You know, Self righteous, And maybe fake about it, Or, You know, Just being a Sunday Christian, And then I'm considering changing that. How do I do that? And how do I not beat myself up over that, And get out of that and be more authentic, You know, And be more real and helpful as well? So yeah, So that's a possibility to do that. Or when I find myself falling into that, How do I how do I best address that without either beating myself up, Or on the other end, Not taking it seriously enough, You know, Like, Oh, No big deal. Or, You know, Oh, I got to get out of that, On one hand, I shouldn't do that. On the on one hand, On the other hand, Oh, Who cares? I can just do that. I'll fall into that. No big deal. You know? Yeah, Yeah. So we've got five minutes left, A bit less. Inspiration too. I want to hear about the inspiration thing you mentioned at the beginning. Yeah. Ah, Yes. Yeah. So it's interesting. So I have this community, Not for profit, Grassroots thing for more active and public transport in my town. And I, I've done, And I kind of am doing okay, I'm doing quite well, Given, Given I started with nothing, And I've done kind of okay. But I was doing a course on communication the other day. And it just helped me reframe how to talk about with other people with more confidence. And there's something about now that I look, This is something I talk to people all the time. And now that I know, Kind of how to frame things, What to look for, And how not to frame things and how to move away from contentious, From from ways of describing it that are going to only end up down a negative spiral, So to speak. Then it's been really helpful, Because that's having felt sort of not very good at it, And having this course and a bit of training, And I've gone, Ah, I feel so much more confident. And now I'm going, I feel really more inspired to go out and do more stuff. So I don't know if that's a good way of thinking about the word inspired. But what I was thinking of is in terms of the Dhamma, That we might not understand, We sort of think we know, Understand, We go, What am I doing? What am I doing? And then we actually, Somebody tells us, This is a way of approaching it. And then we go, Ah, Now I have some confidence about how to approach it. And now I can actually apply that really easily. So I've, Yeah, So I've just been thinking about that. And how helpful it is. Yeah, You go. No, That's, That's great. And that's where I wanted to go into this, Because this, This way you illustrate here, The inspiration, It plays hand in hand with this faith, Or we can call it trust and confidence, Like you're saying, Right? And we can, We can see living examples of this, You know, And then that it can provide what you're talking about. So yeah, It can provide confidence, It can, You know, At least consider, Oh, Wow, I really admire this in this person, Or this teaching, And then, Oh, Wow, What would it be like if I could be, You know, Like that, Or I could adopt the same qualities, Or I embodied the same type of qualities, How beneficial that would be for myself and others, And how helpful that would be. And so that brings about this kind of inspired faith and trust and confidence, You know, We can kind of like borrow it, Or, You know, Yeah, Have support in a way, I don't know exactly how to put it, But be inspired by that brightness and what those qualities we see, And know that it's possible for us to, To, To train to be like that, And to have the same qualities that we're observing, And those we respect and admire, And be inspired, Like, Okay, What do I need to do, I'm inspired now, What, What, What do I need to do to get there, To be like that, You know, For my own self authentically, You know. Excuse me. So what it really speaks to is that we learn vicariously, Like it's such a huge thing. Speaking of vicariously, Look at that. Oh, My goodness, Time's up. We have to turn into a pumpkin. I will vicariously end this with you. Yeah. Have fun, Everyone. All right. Bye, Everybody. Thanks again. Hopefully this was helpful.