Why Meditate? | 9/28/23 Mindful Q&A With Wendy Nash #13

In this thirteenth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we explore why one would even bother meditating in the first place. And what’s so important about meditation anyway?

Transcript

Gosh of integrating presence.

And today I've got the lovely Wendy Nash back with me.

Wendy,

How's it going?

Yeah,

Good.

I'm in Australia,

In Queensland,

In Gabby Gabby country.

And we just had a big downfall.

Oh my goodness.

It's always nice,

Nice rain.

It's hot here.

Ah,

That's right.

So we love the rain.

Yeah.

Well,

You know,

This is kind of an auspicious time,

I guess.

Wendy leaves for meditation retreat tomorrow.

And here within less than a week,

I go back to the UK to stay in a couple of Buddhist monasteries and actually finally get to do a retreat after quite a while.

And I'm both looking forward to it.

And today's show we titled,

Why Meditate?

You know,

This fundamental question of why we're even bothering to do this.

I was reflecting on this.

Well,

I think that's it.

Yeah.

I think it's a good question,

Josh.

Because why would you put up with discomfort?

It is,

You know,

And the first thing that comes to mind is it's almost like a,

When Wendy says that,

A dentist,

Right?

A dentist,

Sometimes they inflict pain in order to get rid of a greater,

Longer pain.

I know that was like that for me,

The first part of my practice in particular,

You know.

But I want to just throw this back to Wendy.

You know,

Why do this?

Wendy,

Why meditate?

So why do I meditate?

I meditate,

Well,

I'm going on a week's retreat tomorrow.

So I'm super excited about that.

First one,

A way,

Well,

It's the first one in 18 months.

And it's the first one to this new retreat center.

So I've never been to that retreat center before.

It's on,

If you've heard of Byron Bay,

Apparently that's where all the famous people are in Australia.

They're in Byron Bay.

Because it's the most Eastern point in Australia.

So it's amazing.

And this used to be a real hippie thing.

Now it's,

You know,

Influencer and stuff like that.

And before that,

I was in Amsterdam.

And why would I meditate?

It costs money.

It's a bit expensive.

You know,

There's a reason why it's called the upper middle way.

Because you've got to be upper middle class to afford it.

You take time off work.

You find out how unpleasant you are.

You're kind of a bit uncomfortable.

You don't talk.

And yeah.

But why meditate?

Because it's a bit like doing the dishes.

Comes in on the left and you go,

And you haven't noticed how much of a backlog of dishes there are.

But you've had dishes for a long time.

You have never done your dishes.

And then you put them in the sink and some of them need a really good throw.

Some of them you're at that sink for a long,

Long time and you need deep,

Deep scours.

And you're trying really hard not to break the plate and the pan through over earnestness.

And then afterwards you put them out and then it takes a while for them to dry,

To drain and dry.

And I think that's actually,

I just made that analogy up.

And,

But basically it's like that.

And then,

You know,

Now I don't really have to deal with the really hard grit and grime.

It's just,

It's more about being curious about what is this grit and grime?

Because it's not big.

I don't feel overwhelmed by it.

In the beginning,

I think the toughest time in meditation is actually the first few years.

The first six weeks are the hardest to set up a routine.

I heard somebody say five,

Five,

Five.

Five minutes,

Five days a week for five weeks.

I thought that was very interesting.

Appropriate.

Yeah,

I think that's really practical and doable for a lot of people.

I know I was a rare case with this.

Reflecting on this this morning,

I kind of came to the same metaphor that Wendy was talking about here.

It's like a hygiene,

You know?

It's like,

You know,

We brush our teeth,

We clothe ourselves and it's just,

There's so much gunk that builds up through the day.

You know,

It's just like taking care of ourselves.

And now people do this in many ways.

They have all kinds of different things to do,

Some more healthy than others.

For me,

This works just to kind of clear the energetic gunk that's picked up throughout the day as well.

But,

You know,

Ultimately it goes way beyond that or can,

Has the potential.

And I just wanna echo Wendy's sentiment of,

You know,

The cost of the meditation retreats,

You know,

Then you're going silence.

And so you're paying money to basically do nothing,

You know,

Go inside and,

You know,

Where you,

So.

But it does create a container,

These retreats for,

Maybe we can do a episode about like retreats,

Frequently asked questions,

But it does provide a container to go deeply inside.

Now,

Where it really becomes apparent is over time,

The gradual thing,

Because day to day,

It doesn't seem like it's a huge,

Profound difference.

However,

With the exception of the very beginning,

Like Wendy was mentioning,

That's when I noticed the biggest change as well,

To complete transformation for me.

Maybe not for everybody,

But I would say most meditators,

When they first start diligently a daily practice,

They notice quite a significant effect change.

So I'll just leave it there and throw it back to Wendy before we get into what even are the potential,

You know,

I wouldn't say grandiose,

But even more profound things than this.

But for me day to day,

I really couldn't imagine,

You know,

In the world we live in,

Going without it,

Just clearing the gunk.

Yes.

Yeah,

So I had a thing this morning and I was,

I have,

My whole big thing is for beginners,

You know,

How to be happy without doing more.

So this is a really big thing that I've got.

And basically you just notice anytime anyone does anything to make you feel at ease in some way,

Just pause and allow that to land in your heart.

So that's it.

And go through the day from the first cup of tea that your partner brings,

Or maybe,

You know,

If you have a partner and you just snuggle up and they're,

You know,

They just snuggle,

You can do that.

That's actually,

And they accepted that snuggle.

That's actually a really nice thing.

Then,

And you just go through the day noticing all those.

And then at night time,

You go back to bed.

And there was one woman and she's,

I do all the caring.

I care for everybody else.

And then,

You know,

As you know,

Josh,

I also founded a community movement to improve the non-car travel options in my town.

And I do that as my engaged Dharma practice.

Well,

It's not my engaged Dharma practice.

It is what I do.

And I guess I do it because I am sick of talking,

Sick of myself.

And so I'm thinking about other people,

I suppose.

And I wanna go bus service.

So that's also there.

And she was really aggressive with me about something.

And I got really kind of,

It was like her pain body.

I got really knocked off at her.

And then I felt this kind of dirtiness of her kind of pain body speak.

And then,

And then it kind of,

I don't know,

There's something eased on that.

And I think that's why I meditate,

Because people are a bit of a pain in the ass,

Backside,

On a regular basis.

I find them.

But I find that now that I've been meditating for 20 years and going on meditation retreats,

Not as many people peeve me.

And in fact,

I find I often like people more.

So that's why I meditate,

Because I just,

I'm less of a rat bag.

Just that.

It's a really good point.

And I would flip it around here for myself that I am more palpable to other people,

Put it that way,

Because I used to be quite of a rear end myself.

I was told that quite a few times and I didn't even see it.

And then to be able to see how I was behaving towards others,

Behaving towards myself.

And I don't know,

I seem to notice too,

That I became kind of,

Or realized that I was more energetically sensitive.

And some people maybe might know,

When he was talking about that,

It seems like when our heart becomes more open,

On the downside,

There's more potential for crap to come in,

But then there's also more potential to just let it slide,

Just let it fall off like a water off a duck's back and move through and go through it quicker even.

So yeah,

The things that once really perturbed me,

At one point,

They're kind of seen more as not a big deal anymore.

The classic terminology is empty.

We can see that nothing is gonna be stuck there forever.

You can't really grab onto anything for a long time.

I mean,

We can,

The mind does,

But it can easily or sometimes easily be let go of.

Yeah,

So it's just overall,

It's just a better way of being in the world,

I've noticed.

And I couldn't really imagine going back to,

Without it.

And it's so weird.

Another thing that came up this morning is,

How can I talk about this?

Like I'm not selling some kind of product or something,

Like,

Or that I'm proselytizing for some kind of religion or something like this.

But I don't know,

What are your takes on this?

Yeah,

It's interesting.

I was thinking about what you said about,

You're less of a rear end,

I think.

That's a great way of putting it.

But I met a gentleman this morning and he's a counsellor and he was talking about,

You know,

The woke.

And he was so contemptuous.

And I pointed it out to him and he's like,

I'm okay with that.

Basically,

He's a rear end and I'm trying to point him in that direction.

But he has the good intention,

He wants to help people,

But his gunk is in the way.

So he doesn't realize that being contemptuous of people,

Self-righteous,

Is a marker.

It sort of shuts down the heart at some level.

So,

But you asked me a question about something else.

What was the question again?

You know,

It's this,

We'll pick up on that.

It's really interesting that,

The heart is so important too.

And I think what Wendy and I have touched on so far is this heart quality of meditation.

The other part of it is this kind of clear seeing and knowing the wisdom aspect of it.

And I think the things that we see about the heart have the wisdom built in.

But I was just saying,

How do we talk about this without like we're salespeople?

In a way,

I guess we are,

But it just seems like,

Okay,

Is there another approach to this instead of just like selling some other type of product or something,

Which it does apply and it doesn't apply because there is no product,

You know,

Other than,

I don't know how to put it.

So it was interesting this morning when I was at this fair,

And I just said,

Yeah,

So I've got,

You know,

This thing,

How to be happier without doing more.

And everybody just liked it.

And everybody does wanna be happy,

But we just don't have the toolkit.

So I think less talking about it and more giving people an approach,

Something they can do,

Which isn't difficult,

Which fits in with their life,

Which will make them be happier,

Which isn't skirting the issue.

So I never said,

I'm not saying there aren't,

You know,

Rear end things happening in life.

I'm saying,

But there are also these other things.

And normally we overlook the things that others do for us.

And a lot of people talk about,

You know,

Oh yeah,

It's a gratitude practice.

And I say,

No,

It's not really a gratitude practice because what you're doing is you're just noticing what someone does for you,

Pausing,

And allowing that to land on the heart.

And then they kind of went,

Oh,

That's what it is.

So it was a bit,

Everybody liked it,

But no one wants to have their veggies rammed down their throat.

No 10-year-old wants the veggies rammed down their throat in a kind of broccoli's good for you,

Sunny gym kind of way.

But if you just make your veggies and you cut them up into pretty shapes and then you do little trees for the broccolis and you make it a yummy meal and you cover it in tons and tons of cheese or whatever,

Then kids,

If you do it into a way that they like,

Well,

Then it's not an argument.

You're not ramming it down their throat.

So I think proselytizing is a bad idea.

And I also think you've just got to live it.

So people meet me and they just,

They resonate with the joy and lightness and humor and warmth and care.

And I mean,

There were a couple of people this morning who just had tears in their eye because they actually just felt loved.

Very few people like that,

You know?

And I,

So I think to me,

It's just about meeting people where they're at,

Listening and living it at that.

That's really beautiful.

I mean,

I think there's so many of us that just want to be seen and heard.

And I've said this before,

But some people need to be seen to be heard and some people need to be heard to be seen.

And you know,

How can we show up?

It's about how we show up too,

Right?

And this deep practice that Wendy and I have,

Or we'll just say practice.

I don't know how deep Wendy's is or deep mine is really,

But it's this embodiment.

What do we embody,

You know?

When we're off the cushion,

You know,

How are we in the world?

How are we with ourselves?

You know,

What is the relationship with,

Like with ourselves and with others?

And yeah,

People can pick up on that light and that care and being seen and heard.

And it really kind of starts and continues and goes through with how we show up for ourselves and how we see ourselves and our relationships to ourselves.

And what better place to do that in a formal meditation practice when you're almost forced to?

I mean,

There's nothing else.

If the eyes are closed and going inside,

Then well,

Of course there's distractions and things,

But ultimately if you do it long enough,

We're gonna be faced with this me,

You know,

Or whatever that is,

Then come kind of face to face with it.

And then what's the best way to go about that?

And is it,

Oh yeah,

There's so many better ways to go about it than what kind of the default mode is that we've kind of maybe fell into before we've had a meditation practice and whatnot.

And I love this notion when he mentions about letting this appreciation just fall on the heart,

And it is different from gratitude because gratitude I think is more of an act of like listing what we're grateful for,

Right?

And maybe reflecting on that,

But this is just getting out of the way of everything and just letting it touch the heart.

And how does it touch the heart?

How is that?

So actually I still catch up with my previous partner.

We still have conversations.

He lives in a different country,

But you know,

We catch up regularly just to say hi,

Check in and stuff.

And the other day he said,

Oh,

I've always thought you were a bodhisattva.

So that's like my ex-partner telling me that.

And when we split up,

You know,

I wasn't always perfect,

But I just went,

No,

No,

No,

I don't think you should pay for that.

I think I should pay for that.

I think you've done already too much.

I think I really need to take on more of the responsibility,

Da,

Da,

Da.

And you know,

Look,

I'm not going to say it was all,

You know,

Without,

There weren't issues because of course it was.

And I emotionally completely shut down because I had to,

I didn't want to be a horrible person,

But that there was so much kind of hurt in there too.

So I was just kind of,

Kind of held back and withdrawn and perhaps a bit cold,

But I always tried to meet,

Meet him as we were living in the same country before.

And yeah,

So I think there is something about why meditate?

Because we're kinder.

When the practices are about kindness and care and generosity,

We become kinder and more caring and more generous.

When the practices are,

How much more can I make?

And I'm going to find a way,

I'm going to be really mindful and concentrate.

How can I make more money and be more manipulative?

Well,

I'm just going to be more manipulative and ruthless.

That's,

That is still mindful,

But wow,

I mean you'd just be a horrible person,

Wouldn't you?

So I think,

I think I just wanted to check that in.

Yeah,

And this brings up a good point.

This notion of goodness and,

You know,

So in the classic terminology,

This is called,

You know,

Right mindfulness,

Right?

There's a wrong mindfulness,

A right mindfulness.

A wrong mindfulness would be,

Or the right and wrong is not the,

So it's,

You know,

What's skillful?

I think Wendy's used whole mindfulness or yeah.

So yeah,

What's,

What's wholesome about,

You know,

What's helpful and skillful about the mindfulness?

Cause you can be really mindful as a thief,

Right?

Takes a lot of being present and concentration in order to steal something,

You know,

Or to pull off a theft without getting caught.

But that's not what we're talking about here.

But what this does bring up for me is I'm wondering about these,

These kind of wholesome roots and these unwholesome roots.

You know,

The,

When we boil things down and get to the root of a lot of unwholesome things,

Things that aren't helpful or skillful really that are the cause of ills in our society,

It comes down basically to greed,

Ill will,

And this ignorance or delusion,

Right?

Of not seeing these other two things and not,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Ignorance.

So I just wonder about,

You know,

Do you,

I mean,

This is more of a philosophical question.

Do we,

Do you feel that people are beyond,

Certain people are,

That those,

That they're really entrenched in those roots,

Those unwholesome roots,

And that they're good roots are gone basically,

That their generosity and,

You know,

Their kindness and wisdom is pretty much out the window.

You know,

It's gone.

It's not there anymore.

And I've been reflecting on this myself and I really don't know.

And if they are gone,

Can they be reestablished?

You know,

Short answer for me is maybe there are folks like that.

And,

But if there are,

Then I think it's still possible at some point to reestablish them somehow.

I don't know the exact details and this is speculation,

Of course,

But I don't know if it's appropriate to speculate,

But I just see if Wendy thinks there's anything to this.

There are a couple of things in there that I thought,

Gee,

That'd be good to talk about.

So one is,

Are people able to be,

Can they absolve themselves?

And technically I think people can.

I heard Bishop Desmond Tutu,

Archbishop Desmond Tutu give a talk at a thing.

It was like $10,

20 years ago.

It was so cheap,

I couldn't believe it.

And I went along and he said that what happened during the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa is that you had the police,

The racist police under apartheid upholding the law,

But they took it to an extra step.

And what they did is they sometimes tortured black people by burning them alive.

And then they had a barbecue with that emulation,

With that burning.

It's a grim,

Grim,

Cruel,

Horrible.

Like to me,

It's a whole other level of cruelty.

And one of the side effects of divulging this in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is the wives turned around and said,

Oh my gosh,

This is my husband.

I thought he was a good upstanding person.

I have been sharing a bed.

I have children with this man.

I cannot be with them.

So if in that moment,

The soldier,

The police officer sees the horror and is open to engaging with the horror of what they have done,

Then you can.

And I think that's sort of one of the few stories where I think,

Well,

When it's sort of circumstance,

If you've ever done anything mean in your life,

All you need is circumstance in order to be as dark as that,

As unkind and mean as that.

I mean,

You might go,

Oh,

I'd never do that.

But we know from Germany that actually you probably could.

So I think it's joining the Second World War.

We know that this is possible.

We know this is possible.

But I also wanted to,

So I think that that is,

I think that's always worth to remember,

But that people can at any stage review their life and go,

Oh my goodness.

I mean,

I think it was at Chandrakirti,

There was the one who cut off all the fingers of all the people and he wore a necklace and he finally became guilty.

And Guli Mala,

That's a really good point.

Yes,

Yes,

That's a classic famous story.

And anybody interested in that,

I invite them to look that up,

But I think that's it.

And so what you're saying is that,

Yeah,

I think it's beyond me,

The psychology of it,

But there is,

At least you're talking about circumstances or conditions,

Right?

And one of the ones that you turned it around on there is if they just stop and pause and review their life.

And I know that was a thing for me early on in meditation.

I was like having this,

What new agers kind of call a life review,

Where I was going over in my mind,

Images and past scenes were arising in my mind that I hadn't completely dealt with.

And I was like,

I was kind of shocked of all the things that were,

The gunk that was built up there.

And yeah,

So I think that's a really good point,

This condition,

Maybe the unwillingness or whatever it might be to pause and then look back on one's life.

So can I- Sure,

Please.

Yep,

Yep.

So one of the things you do need to,

Not everybody is up for the courage to look at themselves.

Like,

I mean,

With my sister's death,

I mean,

Just gosh,

What a horrific thing to happen,

My father's death,

What a horrific thing to happen.

But I'm the only one in my family who's looking at my stuff and going,

Wow,

Yeah,

There's a problem here.

And nobody else is interested.

One of my brothers,

He enjoys a good bottle of wine and a beer.

In fact,

One time we hadn't caught up and he just,

The idea of having dinner without a beer or a wine,

I mean,

We had to spend 20 minutes going to find a bottle shop,

He couldn't do it.

And my other brother,

He's just a cranky person who finds it difficult to keep friendships.

And my mum,

She's just quite a superficial person.

I've now kind of understood that she has some kind of autism and makes it very difficult for her to engage other people's realities and understand them,

Which is why I thought she was cold.

So it's often just trying to understand what's going on for the other person that makes it.

One of the things I did want to touch in was this thing that you get to the point where you look at yourself and you see who you are.

And then you also talked about greed,

Hatred and delusion.

And one of the things I'm really looking about with meditation is that actually the first truth is that life is going to be painful sometimes.

It's just like,

There ain't no negotiating on that one.

That's just,

That's the deal.

And what that means is what that greed,

Hatred,

Delusion is seeking to do is to avoid that sense of feeling unpleasant.

But in no place in those four noble truths,

So later on,

Is there the inquiry into self?

That's not a necessary thing.

That is not necessarily what you have to do with the four noble truths.

The first one is,

Notice every time you desire to pull away from that which is unpleasant.

And that's kind of it.

So,

Because I'm not so sure that the answer is we have to meet the self.

I've met so many people who have seen the self and they're still just as,

Whatever,

As rear-endish as they were beforehand.

They just have seen through that and the grandiosity,

The child's desire to be a big grown-up and I'm going to have as much ice cream as I want when I'm grown up,

That character has just melded with it.

So I just,

You know,

There's a lot of enthusiasm for seeing to the self,

But I'm not convinced.

I'm not convinced yet that that is the way.

It may be a good by-product,

But I think fundamentally,

Notice that you have a desire to move away from that which is unpleasant and in what way do you choose to do that?

I think that's the core.

And why do I meditate?

To become more and more in that.

That's beautiful,

It really is.

And so I guess for people that are new to this,

You know,

People might be saying,

Well,

Who wants to be unpleasant?

Doesn't it make sense to go away from the unpleasant?

I mean,

Doesn't that usually mean danger?

I could be in danger,

You know,

Then my life doesn't,

You know,

It doesn't,

It sucks when things are unpleasant.

And of course I could answer this myself,

But I'm gonna,

I'll just play interviewer here or something and ask,

Just ask Wendy that first and let her brilliance shine first and then see if there's anything else for me to add to it.

So you're just,

Just to double check,

You can nod because we've got a bit of a sound problem here.

Okay.

So what you're saying is,

You would like me to discuss why moving away from unpleasant is a problem.

Okay.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah.

Or like something's unpleasant happen and you're telling me I should go into it,

You know,

As a new meditator.

Yeah.

So what are the benefits of,

You know,

Or how do we approach unpleasantness?

Okay.

So I think first up,

When you're a beginner,

Don't bother with any of that.

First up,

Look for anything that anybody does that is kind,

That makes you feel more at ease.

And because then you need the,

You need to sort of feel more love and buoyed by the connection to others.

It's like a little trampoline,

You know,

It kind of helps you bounce a little bit more,

Bounce back a little bit.

And so,

So as a beginner,

Don't go there.

Just notice all that.

Just,

Just do that all day,

Every day.

Not to negate that there are rear-endy things in life,

But just to know that there is more to life that perhaps you have overlooked.

And that's a good place to start.

But I think there is a point at which you start to recognise that it's to do with the patterning.

So it's not so much about one particular thing.

It's to do with the patterning and whether you feel there is an option.

And every,

If,

Every time you feel a bit,

I don't know,

Restless,

You go and do something,

Then that is what gets hardwired into the brain,

You know,

Neurons that fire together,

Wire together,

Or use it or lose it.

So if you want to,

If you want to,

If you want to,

Whatever you do now,

And you do more often,

When you're an old codger,

You're just going to be grumpy,

Or restless,

Or joyous,

Or warm,

Or crotchety,

Or whatever.

So whatever you choose to do in every moment is what you'll be like when you're an old person.

But that's easier said than done.

Because everyone thinks,

Oh,

I'm much nicer to other people than I am to myself.

And I haven't generally found that to be the truth.

I have generally found that people are just as judgmental to other people as they are to themselves.

It's just that there aren't as many expletives.

Generally,

I find it sort of there.

And,

And it's more that it takes away the mask.

So sitting with where your patterning is,

Noticing,

Ah,

Here I am,

I'm doing it again,

I'm doing it again,

I'm doing it again,

Makes you realise a bit like what you were saying before,

When you started doing the dishes of the mind,

That actually you're a bit rear-endy.

And I thought I was really nice.

And then it turns out I was a bitch.

So I,

Yeah.

So,

So it's,

It's not about not,

It's,

It's about have you got a choice?

Sometimes don't hang out in a bad space.

Don't walk down,

Walk down,

If you feel uneasy walking down a dark alley,

Well,

A,

Don't go down the dark alley.

If you feel something isn't right,

Trust your gut and move.

But if you find that all your relationships are crashing and burning,

If you're finding that you're not satisfied in your work life,

If you're finding that,

Yeah,

I don't know,

There's some pattern that seems to be recurring in your life,

Then you're avoiding something that is unpleasant.

So that's what I would say.

What do you reckon,

Josh?

Yeah,

It is.

And that's a really good way to put it.

So when we start seeing these things about ourselves and other people and whatever it is,

The patterning,

Then there can be a tendency to add another layer on top of it,

Right?

Oh gosh,

This patterning,

It sucks.

I don't want it to be like that.

Why does it have to be like that?

It doesn't happen all the time,

But it's like,

You know,

I've done it again.

I'm such a,

Why do I,

Why does this always happen to me kind of thing?

This kind of thing can happen,

At least it did early on.

So it's important too,

To know our relationship to that patterning,

Right?

On one hand,

Yes,

It doesn't really help to beat ourselves up.

But on the other extreme,

I guess,

Would be,

You know,

Oh,

It's okay.

Just who cares?

I can just do this and I'll be good with it,

Right?

I can just be okay with it.

And in a way,

You know,

There's like pros and cons to each of those sides,

Right?

I think it's a balancing act between how much am I being down to myself and really being hard and overly judgmental and,

You know,

Just not again kind of thing.

And then how much am I on the other end where I'm like,

Oh,

Who cares?

Whatever,

You know,

I can just,

It'll be okay.

Yeah,

That might've been crappy,

But it's okay.

In a way,

It is okay,

But this is where these ethical things really help for me,

Right?

Because we can see this and see all these things,

But if there's no regard for non-harm,

Right?

If we're continuing to harm,

Then,

You know,

I think that I really feel that has to be established too,

Because that's where I think that's where this all,

Traditionally,

All this stuff is taught of non-harming.

And otherwise,

This kind of insight that we have for some people that don't have these ways of being in the world,

It can just turn into another tool for their greed and ill will,

You know,

And ignorance,

Basically.

When you said earlier,

The courage to meet your,

This is really big.

And if I could stress anything for guys,

You know,

You know,

Put on your big boy pants and look at your pain,

You know,

Stop running all the time,

Stop running all the time from it,

You know,

Stop trying to beat it up all the time and annihilate it.

If annihilate anything,

It should be ill will,

You know?

So,

But sometimes it does get too extreme for some people.

And,

You know,

We can't always be mired in our pain,

Thinking I got to do all this inner work all the time.

That's kind of another extreme,

Right?

And it goes back again to Wendy's point that she's made time and time again,

You know,

How is this heart and what does it need?

And yeah,

How is this heart in the world towards myself and others?

And that is the kind of the core and the strength.

And once we see that and establish that,

Then it just becomes obvious that why would I want to harm myself or others?

Because everyone like me just wants to be,

You know,

Okay with the world,

Wants to be content,

Happy even,

You know?

Yeah,

I mean,

I think there is a real problem with if you are dismissive of the harm that you cause others.

Like somebody tells you,

Oh gee,

You're rude.

And it's like,

Ah,

You're always saying I'm rude.

Okay,

So if the one common denominator in all your relationships is you,

What is it that people are telling you over and over and over again?

And that's not about beating you up.

That's about going,

All right,

What do I want to do with this information?

And I think that's what we're looking at.

It's not about,

Oh,

Woe is me.

And,

You know,

It's not like I'm any different to anybody else.

I'm deeply flawed,

You know?

And so are you,

And so are all our listeners,

You know?

But,

So it's not about that.

The reason why I was really saying it's important to focus on the love in the beginning is you need that to know that you are still loved even though you've got all your crappy bits.

And I think that's really important to stay in that space with.

It is,

And I,

You know,

The flaw,

I see where you're coming from with that.

At the same time,

I don't feel that any of our hearts,

Really deep,

Our heart of our hearts,

This notion of whether it's flawed or not doesn't really apply,

You know?

I don't,

You know,

Deep within the heart,

It's just trying to be loved,

Right?

And it's either being loved or trying to be loved.

And I don't know if any kind of perfection or,

You know,

Imperfections or perfections even apply to that,

You know?

But when he talks about we're deeply flawed,

That's kind of like just maybe a side effect of the fact of being in this,

Right?

That everybody experiences pain,

That,

You know,

There's nothing is the way we,

We can't control the way we want things in the world in the long term,

You know?

It's not a perfect world,

Obviously,

It's not flawless.

This isn't a heavenly realm.

Which leads me to my next point too,

Is that the deeper aspect,

I feel,

Of meditation,

Not deeper because the heart is very deep and profound,

And that's needed to do anything else anyway,

I think to any kind of depth and breadth is this clear seeing and knowing how things are.

And I'm reading right now the Lankavatara Sutra,

Which is supposedly this one text that Bodhidharma,

Who started the Zen tradition,

The only text he took with him to China from India.

It's a legend.

And it basically is like the very first half line of the Dhammapada on steroids.

And I like Gil Fronsdale's translation of this.

All phenomena is preceded by mind,

Led by mind,

And made by mind.

And it goes into how everything is a projection of our mind.

And I don't know if I'm on board with this or not,

But what the wisdom for me is this,

And if I can kind of butcher or paraphrase Mahajan Chah here,

That everything in our environment comes from the mind,

And then we get established in this,

And then we forget this,

And then that's when problems arise.

So for instance,

Look around the space you're in here,

The physical objects.

Unless they're from nature,

And I'll set that aside,

Then this is a man-made thing.

Some human has had an idea in their mind,

And then they've gone through whatever they did to make these objects,

Right?

Even the walls,

Buildings that we're in,

They come from this idea in the mind,

And then they're carried out.

Our streets,

Our roads,

Everything.

Everything we do in our life,

Not everything,

But I mean,

Most things.

The activity we do,

We're being driven and led by our mind.

We have this idea,

We wanna do something,

And then our mind motivates us to propel the body to go do what we do,

Say what we say.

And then,

Yeah,

And then even before all this happens,

It's a thought in the mind,

Considering possibilities of what we might say,

Or do,

Or create,

Yeah.

And so this is this,

I think it can lead to this deeper wisdom of seeing that everything around us has been,

It's mind,

The mind at least influences everything around us.

So I just,

To seeing and knowing this,

And remembering that what we normally take things to be,

That's not the whole picture,

Right?

Most of the times we're not seeing deeply into life and reality.

And that's okay though,

But I think that this practice also has the possibility to see things more how they actually are instead of how we want them to be,

And how that might translate to a better way to be in this,

And for ourselves and others,

And especially in the long term.

So just listening to what you said about,

I think that sounds like Bodhidharma is,

Has the,

It's called the Chittamatra school,

The mind only school.

Everything comes from mind.

But the mind is of the mind.

So I think,

I think- Yes,

And then where is the,

That's a good point too.

A lot of it is,

That is self-contradictory.

What I was talking to is just kind of my own experience.

Now,

The Lankavatara Sutra,

It's just like,

Okay.

One way I heard it put is it tries to,

It tires you out.

It tires you out.

So you'll just kind of give up on all this stuff.

So I thought that was interesting.

A lot of it seems really self-contradictory.

Just for instance,

The mind is of the mind.

Well,

Where is the mind?

What is that?

How do you,

Does that even exist?

If it doesn't,

Then what knows about that?

How does that work?

So all these really profound questions are,

They fascinate me.

And at the same time,

I have to be careful not to let them get in the way of,

You know,

This thusness or this suchness or beingness and the heart.

So to me,

It's all good.

It's all,

It's a better hobby than a lot of other things.

So I just wanted to say that M.

Reid is on board.

Hello,

M.

Reid.

Hello again.

It's nice to have you around.

Likewise.

And she says here,

Can you say the mind is the architect?

I hope she's,

Is she on the treadmill?

So I hope she's enjoying her treadmill.

Yes.

The architect,

Yeah.

It's like,

Well,

That's a,

I think that's a fair enough thing.

What do you,

How do you feel about that,

Wendy?

So what do I feel about that?

How do I feel about that?

Hello.

Maybe the deconstructor too,

Right?

The demolisher,

Not just the creator,

But the destroyer,

You know.

I think that the self arises when it seeks to move away from that which is painful.

And the mind thought is that.

So I,

So just so you know,

M.

Reid has finished her treadmill and she's back at her desk.

Just a heads up on that one.

Good on you,

Mim.

So I would say that actually it's just,

I'm not sure that I would say the mind is the architect because we have a body and the body is here too.

Yeah,

This is where the historical Buddha said that we can't really realize awakening without mindfulness of the body.

He stressed it time and time and time again.

And it's such a mysterious thing,

Right?

And the interplay with the mind.

And yes,

Maybe the mind is an architect.

So much of us,

I feel,

Are just running on habit pattern,

Habit energy though,

That we don't really have these,

Most of us,

I would say,

I can't really speak for most of us,

But we just run on habits and the things,

Routines,

Things like this.

And don't consider a lot of times the mind's play and influence in this,

Just on autopilot.

And so if we do go deep within and investigate this,

We can see where the mind is influencing and being influenced by what we do day to day in our patterning.

And we can investigate if we can see where the source of this patterning is or what fuels it and what takes the foot off the gas pedal for our habit energy too.

I think that's probably where might be more of a fruitful investigation.

But I also feel that it is okay to be inspired by how powerful the mind is and how destructive it can be too.

How a trained mind will benefit us and an untrained mind can be our downfall.

For sure,

For sure.

I think that's,

Going back to our original thing,

Why meditate?

Because it's just a form of training.

And it's a way of keeping us,

Well,

Training in what?

But training to be,

We've already said that,

Kind of everything else.

Train the heart and mind.

Yes,

I feel that.

And I like Wendy's approach that kind of brings me more back down to earth,

Practicality,

Everyday life and how it benefits in that.

There's so many health benefits too.

This has been documented time and time again.

It's a good compliment to my sometimes overly lofty notion that all we just need to do is meditate and we're gonna realize awakening anytime now.

And well,

Maybe that might be the case and I still do it towards that.

And at the same time,

I reap all the kind of side effects and benefits of that and try to be in this world and be a part of it without being so entangled in the external world and so entangled in the unwholesome qualities of my heart and other people's hearts and sit down and untangle those knots.

Yeah,

Meditation is a good place to do that too.

So M.

Reid says,

So living integrated in mind,

Body,

Soul,

The Trinity in one living being,

I.

E.

Being whole,

The good,

The bad,

The ugly of us all.

Yeah.

And I was thinking,

You're now living in Denmark and you're moving to England for a retreat.

And that's what you do when you come from the US?

And I'm going back to the US too here in mid November.

That's the plan anyway.

So finally,

Again,

Yeah.

So is that a permanent one?

No,

See,

I can only be here at three months at a time so I have to leave.

So before I can come back again until I work out a more permanent living situation.

So I'm kind of nomadic at the point right now.

So I've never lived a nomadic lifestyle but that's kind of how it's been for the year.

So probably might continue to be for who knows how long.

So what you'll notice about living in different places and living a nomadic life is how much you have a habit.

So obviously not only with the fact that you do things in a particular way,

But the way that you understand things and your cultural loading on certain words.

So I read a blog the other day and it said the pre,

You know,

The text,

Oh,

You know,

Here's a blog about race and class in America.

And I read it and I could not for the life of me figure out where the race part was.

And it's clearly very coded in the language that if you would read it and you go,

Oh,

That's completely race related conversation.

I'm clueless about that because the words don't land in the same way that I go,

Oh yeah,

We've got this huge voice referendum.

No,

You don't mean know anything about that.

You don't know what that's about and the complexities about that.

And until you move to Australia,

You don't understand the complexities of kind of race relations in Australia and the way that it's loaded and things like that.

So I think that when we have a habit of mind and what crappy things,

Crappy moments in our life do is they tell us,

Well,

This is your habit.

And that's why being in slightly uncomfortable situations is good for us.

Now,

Being in really uncomfortable situations is bad for us but being in a relationship which is generally healthy,

But then you just have difficult things,

That's good.

Yeah.

I think this is a really good point.

And we've talked about this in the past of how some of us need more of a comfort zone and while others,

They need to get out of their comfort zone and trying to stop maintaining their comfort zone at all costs.

Yeah,

That's right.

And these challenges,

They show us our habits and sometimes we don't see them and sometimes the external world will provide a mirror for us in a way.

Yeah,

That's one of these mirror teachings.

I like these,

But it could also show us what we're doing well at as well,

Perhaps,

We'll see.

So yes,

I like Melissa's point of this wholeness because there's this kind of fracturing and division,

Not only among ourselves,

But in the external world,

It seems too.

So,

How can we do,

I mean,

This is spiritual buzzwords,

But how can there be more alignment and wholeness and embodiment?

And why are those things kind of important and how does meditation help with those?

Or what's a better way to put this?

Yeah,

It was interesting as you were saying that,

I thought it's never going to happen.

You know,

There's such a yearning for us to live in a peaceful life,

But this is where we are,

This is what we've got and to expect that everything is,

All the pieces are going to come together in the way that you like,

You're dreaming.

It's a good point and it will come together at certain times but then other times it'll fall apart again,

Right?

It's since nothing can really be gelled in permanent here,

Things that are compounded,

Their nature is not to stay fixed,

It's the changeable nature of things.

So,

I guess when I'm talking about these things,

It's more of kind of like an aspiration,

Or an aim,

This ending of this lessening of suffering,

You know,

Unsatisfactoriness,

Stress,

I think maybe it can equate with that.

So,

Less stress can equate to more wholeness,

You know,

More alignment with things that are beneficial,

Things that are skillful,

You know,

Things that are wise.

And yeah,

It can equate to that.

Drop by drop,

You know,

We can fill up a water container or whatnot.

So,

What we do say and think matters and these,

You know,

These things kind of seem cliche,

You know,

To repeat these things,

But they,

Yeah.

So,

To me,

It's important anyway.

I was just here,

Melissa has said that,

You know,

There's a lot of things that we can do to me,

It's important anyway.

I was just here,

Melissa has said,

And now I know her name,

But living in body makes the difference where it's where we can start doing the clearing work,

Taking that moment to stop and look so that we can make the change if we choose.

Yeah.

So,

I guess what I was really clear to me was just this sense that waiting for the world to be how I want it to be,

So then I will be happy.

And that's what I heard a little bit of in your,

In what you said,

In your aim is to be like that.

So,

That's just what I heard a little bit of,

That's all I'm saying.

Yeah,

And it's like,

Okay,

That's a real good point.

And so what I meant more is what I'm responsible for,

You know,

What kind of,

What's my part in all that,

You know,

And then whatever else I can't really do anything about,

Well,

Then the only thing I can really do about that is how am I seeing it?

What is my view on it?

And then how am I responding to it,

Right?

So,

I do the things that I can do to clear out and to,

You know,

Do the work internally and take care of this body,

You know,

Give emphasis to relationships and how I'm relating in the world and my part of that.

And then everything else that,

Which is most everything,

We can't control and that just happens,

You know,

How are we seeing that in our lives?

What's our relationship to that?

What do we,

How do we respond to that?

Including no response is the type of response,

Right?

So,

We're at time,

We're at time,

We ran out.

So,

Nice to meet you.

Nice to have you online today,

Melissa.

Yes.

Now,

We are not meeting in a month.

That's right.

We're meeting in two months.

Yes,

So it'll be the end of November before we meet again and virtually,

Unless we do some kind of impromptu thing while I'm away,

But it seems like the schedule I have overseas and the time of day in Australia is just not lining up.

So,

Until November,

I wish you all the best meditation practice and if you're not meditating,

Then the best consideration and research and motivation to do so.

And I like Whitney's notion that sometimes,

You know,

It was really helpful that maybe meditation just isn't right for you at this time.

So,

That's also something to consider as well.

So,

However it may be,

May it be well.

Yeah.

Have a lovely evening,

Morning,

Cup of tea,

Breath,

Whatever it is that you are.

May this moment be less horrible than it could be.

Hear,

Hear.

Bye now.