Spiritual Friendship | July 2026 Mindful Q&A With Wendy #44

In this forty-fourth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion, this time with Spiritual Friendship or Kalyāṇa-mitta, basically meaning “friend of moral beauty” or a “companion on the path of goodness.” What qualifies as this? What are pseudopartners? What is our lived experience with this? Why is this important?

Transcript

Hey, Wholeness, Welcome. This is Josh, Integrating Presence, And joined once again by the intrepid Wendy Nash. Wendy, What's happening? I'm here on gubby gubby country in Queensland in Kvulce. It's quite cold. Straight after this, I have to dash out. So I'm a little bit flimsy, But I'm hoping I'm going to keep warm. During our discussion, We'll make it hot and exciting. We'll see. So tell me about the weather in Australia in the winter. It's not that cold there for that long, Is it? But when it is, Nobody's really prepared for it and it comes as a shock all the time? No. How does it work? So Australia is a really big place. So people misunderstand how huge it is. So just to give you a bit of an idea, It's the same size as the US mainland. So if you take off Alaska, Then that's basically the same size as Australia. So to say what's the weather in Australia is like saying what's the weather like in the US. It just depends on where you are. So where I am is kind of maybe like Miami, Where it's very humid. It's very humid. It's about maybe 2000 kilometers south of the Tropic of Capricorn. And so actually the range of temperatures is not particularly variable here. We're just outside Brisbane, But it is very humid. So when it's, There's something called the wet light bulb effect, Which is that once the temperature gets, Once the humidity gets up to like 95-100% the relative humidity, You actually can't perspire anymore. And then if the temperature gets to 35 degrees Celsius, Which I don't know what that is in. . . Hot. Then you actually can't perspire and this is sort of an increasing health problem. So, Particularly with all the heat. So, You'll have seen, You know, Obviously in Europe and North America, All these heat waves. So, That's what happens. So, Even if you're in front of a fan, You can't, It doesn't make any difference. Trust me, I know because I've been, I mean, I've done it. I've tried it. What's, It's called a wet bulb effect. Bulb, B-U-L-B? A wet light bulb, Light bulb. A wet light bulb effect. Okay, Interesting. I haven't heard of that. Okay, Hey, So, Yeah, Well, It's hot a lot of places, But at least you have some coldness there, Right? Or some coolness now, So that's nice, I guess. But anyway, Okay, Well, We'll jump right in here, Right? It's time to start. And this, I'll just read my little blurb here. In this 44th installment of the ongoing life series with Wendy Nash, We continue our inquiry into meditation practice, Both on and off the cushion, This time with spiritual friendship, Or Kalyanamita. It's a Pali word for what's translated as spiritual friendship. Basically meaning friend of moral beauty or a companion on the path of goodness. What qualifies as this? What are pseudo partners? What is our lived experience with this? Why is this important? How does this relate to meditation? This and more. Live, So join us. If you're not already here, Somehow get here and listen or listen on the replay, Which you may be doing too. So yeah, Spiritual friendship, And this struck me as particularly important, Because I just came off of two retreats, And everybody should do more retreats. I love retreats and highly suggest them a lot. And at the same time, When we're doing silent meditation retreats, It does limit our ability to connect as spiritual friends, Which we need this time alone. But then I think we also need this dynamic of spiritual friendship to, What say you, Wendy? You're not saying anything. You're on silent retreat. No, I'm not. I was just going, Can I quickly get this email out, Which I knew. Oh, Please go ahead. I can talk forever. Go for it. Go seriously. I'm talking about spiritual friendship. So this is bad behavior on my part, But I'm like madly dashed trying to get this thing out and I can't wait. And we can wrap up on YouTube today too. So you've got extra busy stuff and it's not like we're getting on the clock getting paid or anything. So yeah, We definitely, There's no seriousness here. If we don't need to be, You know what I mean? So you're more than welcome to. Off your camera, I could just talk and you can listen. But seriously, Yeah, But no, That's the point. Let's not do that. So that's, You know, What is a good friend, You know, Like a Kalyana Mitra? Yeah. Kalyana Mitra. What is that? So, Huh. I've got some guidelines here. I'm sure you do. I think. I think it takes many forms. I think it's very. . . So there are people. Actually, I was at a community building workshop yesterday. And he was talking about social capital. And there's two types of social capital. One is bonding social capital, And one is linking social capital. And bonding social capital is the benefit that you gain from being with your friends, With being with people who are alike. And the other one, Which is making connections with people you are not like, But still feeling like some sort of connection. You wouldn't maybe have a big discussion with them because it might go really badly. But nonetheless, You sort of ride your bike or walk or wherever and you see them and you go, Hi, Wherever. So that's, And you need for good social, For good wellbeing, You need both. And you can have, You can be poor, You can have any other stuff going on in your life. But if you actually don't have those two aspects of social, Capital in your life. You actually don't have good well-being. This is what he was saying. And, You know, You look around at the world today and you go, Yeah, That's it. So linking back to what is Kalyanamitra, I think it is both of those. So in a way, It's with the bonding social capital. I think that's what, You know, We do need people who support us in our practice. We do need people to have just chats with about the Dharma, About meditation, To know if we're on the right track to kind of how we're going. And just to feel connected to somebody else in this space. And I think also we need to be able to practice with people who are really different, Because that's where the edge is. People are really different. And so I think That's what I would say about Kalyanamitra. One is a place to practice and one is a place to chat. What do you think? Yeah, This is pretty much, I mean, In the traditional like Theravada stuff, At least for monastics, If I'm getting this right, You know, You have the spiritual friend, You have your companions on the path, And you want to associate with wise people, Basically. And that goes beyond just people in the holy life as well, I would say. And you have your teachers and friends, Like you just said, To keep you, You know, Supported and see if you're on the right track. And then, But the monastic community, The Buddha, I think, Deliberately arranged it this way, Where they can't store up food, And they can't touch and do food themselves. So they're entirely dependent on lay people. And so this means, Traditionally, I guess, Going on alms rounds, And they're forced, In a sense, I guess, I don't know, That's maybe too strong a word, But they have, It's structured so there'll be interaction with those outside their normal circles, Right, Usually. And so this is where, So I agree with you're saying, But just saying, Oh my gosh, It's social capital. It's like a human asset or you're like treating people as like, I don't know, I'm pushing a little bit far here, But the language is really interesting. But the sentiment is what matters, What the meaning is, Right? The phrase, I'm just kind of like roll my eyes a little bit, But yes, Absolutely. And I would say the second category, Wendy, Is unavoidable. That we're not gonna have to go out of our way too much, Unless we're a hermit. Are, And especially some people that are deeply introspective and meditative, They don't go out a lot. They don't interact. There's so much loneliness and belonging. But eventually, Whether you buy things at a store, You step outside your house and have a random encounter, It's almost entirely unavoidable. Or you live in a cave for three years or whatever, You're still going to have to do this. But yeah, Some of us need more in some of the other. But the importance, I think, Here, Too, Is wise friends, Because that's the support system, And that's the bonding, And then that kind of the reinforcement, The strength, When it's good to then go out and then interact with these in the world in this other category you're talking about. Yeah. So, Let me just, Let me, The one thing here, You know. Can I just, Can I just speak to something? So, In Tibetan Buddhism, And I can't remember his name, I just can't remember his name. And there's, He's one of these kind of cranky old kind of, You know, People who just traipse about the countryside and very, Very, Very clear kind of capacities, Very skilled. And he goes to this monastery and he hears about this monk who's in like a house, Like he's got his own thing and he never goes out or anything like that. And he's sponsored by the local community. And the I think mine might be conflating a couple of stories. And this very famous Rinpoche comes up to him and he says, Because he goes, What are you studying? He says, I'm studying patience. It's like, I'm really, You know, Refining my practice. I'm refining my practice. Very good. And this, You know, Kind of maverick, Kind of larrikin kind of guy turns around and goes, Slaps him on the back. He goes, Well, We've got them hoodwinked good and proper, Haven't we? I mean, Wow, We are just right there and he just gets livid and he goes, There you go. That's what you've got to be working with. So, Yeah, So I put that in as a kind of that in a way is the role of the Kalyana Mitra in some, I mean, I guess that's a teacher role, But You don't want to be. Abusive in that role by any stretch, Because people can be very weird in that space. But I think that that kind of wisdom is really, Really good. Yes, We have talked about this with a few people too. And this is, I don't know if this fits in the crazy wisdom tradition. And yeah, It's great. I love these teachings. However, I would say that it's high risk, High reward, Right? You know, It really only works, Not only works, The success rate is best all around in more of a narrow case, Right? The practitioner has to be ready for it, Not taking it the wrong way, And has to be firm in certain because there's really high levels of abuse. You can't just go teaching in that manner to everyone. I mean, In some of the Zen teachings I've heard about too, It would completely traumatize some people, But other people, It's the breakthrough they need. It's a skillful means. That's how I look at it, Exactly. It's a fun story too. I wouldn't put that in the crazy wisdom, Abusive kind of category because he's really just kind of highlight, He's kind of triggering this person's sense of impatience and kind of going, Well, How enlightened are you? You think you're so far ahead. So I think that that is to me, Like just such a great example. Yeah. And if I would have memorized this, It reminds me of a Zen story, But I don't feel competent enough to retell it and want to screw it up. But yeah, There's so many around this where I think we get tested when we need it, Right? A lot of times we'll have, And I've heard this again, Or seen it in parents too. I'm not a parent. But their kids are a great mirror to show them kind of their own stuff and what they need to work on. And it becomes pretty obvious about certain things. And yeah. The thing I want to read here, This is the other end of this stick here too, I think. This is one little paragraph about, This is kind of the classic thing that made me, That we hear about spiritual friendship. And I'm just going to read a little selection here. Say that admirable friendship, Admirable companionship, Admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When I first heard that teaching years and years ago, I was like, Really? I mean, So the Buddha was known to teach people what they needed and according to their needs and means. So I wonder if that factors in here with Ananda, Which was known for always being by the Buddha's side, Memorizing everything, Being a close personal attendant. So I wonder how much time time he had to interact with so many other people on a friendly manner. I don't know if he actually, Anyway, But, But. No matter, This is a huge emphasis. And to let that really sink in, But what about meditation? What about ethics? And what about wisdom? Well, I think spiritual friendship easily encompasses all three of those, I think, When we're doing it right. What do you think, Wendy? Cough cough You know, I've never heard that sort of said about Ananda that. Here it was that he obviously he was an attendant and that he gave the teaching. At the right time, At the right place. I've always heard it only ever as a general kind of statement. It is the whole of the life. That was my extra commentary that the Buddha taught to those at their level and what they needed and things like that. And I don't know who else was around supposedly when this teaching was, But anyway, So yeah, Now you have. And so Ananda underestimated it and the Buddha said it was actually more important than he thought it was. Yeah. Easy. Easy to remain. Sort of to think you are further along the path when you don't bump into people on the road. You're not sort of looking at this person going, Oh, That was a bit uncomfortable. That that wasn't so gracious. Oh, I regret saying this, All that sort of stuff. So I think there's still a lot of I think actually that statement is truer today than at any time in the past. So in the past, People were sort of living on top of each other a little bit more. But today we have this hyper-individualist society. You know, We don't meet in groups. We are afraid of conflict. We are afraid of. . . Speaking up and disappointing people and hurting people. So we don't say anything. We don't have any connection. And so then we wonder why we're all so desperately lonely when there are physical things. Obviously, You know, It's a very car dependent society that we now live in. I mean, In Denmark, You're not. How how is that? And how does that change the way that you experience all that? Totally. And we've got social distancing, This remnant, I think, That's still left over somewhat from the lockdowns. Texting and social media. I don't know if it's gotten better, Or maybe it's gotten worse in the years of this is a new way of interacting socially. But is that really how does that work with the flesh and blood kind of thing and connection, You know? So there's these other interesting dynamics of friendship and and interaction. So you're involved, I think you're involved with not only Buddhism, But other social groups, Is that correct? And some of those are spiritual, Is that right? I would say. . . I don't know about in physical life so much, But I talk to people from all walks of life. And of course, Even in Buddhist circles, You meet people from all different kinds of backgrounds who are just there as kind of curiosity or going through and just staying at a free monastery and things like that. I'm trying to think, But maybe it'll come up in physical life. But yeah, In the past, I have been too. I moved in kind of these different spiritual circles, New age type thingies. Stuff like that and found the helpfulness of those and kind of the distortion of those as well. But as far as being socially interactive in certain social groups these days, I wouldn't say that. I will get together with my friends while I'm here too, Old college buddies, New ones that I've met. But anyway, Sorry, I'm rambling on again. Where were you going with this idea? Whereabouts are you based at the moment? I'm in the States. I'm in Missouri. Are you in the US? Yes. September, Yeah. Okay, So you obviously move around and you spend time in different monasteries, Different countries and your friends change and the cultural mores of those times and so How would you experience Kalyana Mitra in the context of those diverse cultures? You know, Look, Come, Let's meet up and hang out, You know? So that's how I kind of keep up with that. So in a way, A lot of that's dependent on, You know, Kind of certain one-time situations, And then staying in contact online if I want to. So yeah, It's a different dynamic, An interesting dynamic. In a way, It's allowed for more expansion, But also a different type of contraction, You know what I mean? So it's a very interesting dynamic. So, But you do live in monasteries for, Say, Three months, Two months, Whatever, And you go on retreats. Well, Even less than that, Too. Like the winter retreat at Chidhurst in England, And then I've stayed at Amravati. I was in South Korea for a couple months at a monastery, Too. I'm going to be going on another one in October for a month in Indonesia. So, That's pretty cool. All around. Yeah, So in those different spaces, In those different cultures, So you follow Buddhism, You go, Do you ever bump into the same people at the different places. Oh yeah, That happens. And then what's the experience of the actual friendship side of it? Because that's what we're talking about, How to, You know, Is there friendship in that sort of space? And then what does that sort of look like? Yeah, The context and the container is really important, I feel, Right? So how we, Let's just take, Let's just take one of our friends and we're going around to all these different places together, Let's just say that. How we will interact with each other and other people I think is significantly dependent on the space and the container in the time and what the context is and what's appropriate. So even from monastery to monastery, How I interact with someone in one monastery might be different because it's more kind of surface level and there's so many more people involved versus if I'm doing a winter retreat at a different monastery where it's a really tight knit community. Original question again. I sort of wanted to explore how does, We're talking about Kalyanamitra in this context. Um In the context of those, Like I was sort of, I'm very curious about different cultures and how they change the way we understand friendship. And you know, I've lived in England for quite a bit of my life. And what is, You know, For me, I found the, I mean, I just, Even in spiritual communities, I just couldn't get off this question of what's the weather and what will people think? Sorry, Sorry about that. It was just awful. You had to be, To live in England you have to be thrown into that and there's no other option, Right? But I couldn't actually form any connections with the spiritual communities. That's what really shocked me. Actually, I found it to be. . . I mean, They were small. I just found them all quite aloof and not particularly warm. And so I guess I was curious to see, Now you may have had a very different experience. You've been in different communities and also South Korea. Yeah, Tell me. I can tell you how I deal with it in England at the monastery. I just became the loud, Weird, Unapologetic American guy. And so I just didn't really bother to do the social niceties. I did, Right? But people just knew that I was a little bit more irreverent. And what was nice is the Ajahn Chah tradition. And Ajahn Chah is known for being kind of an unorthodox method sometimes, You know, Really earthy and groundy and testing in a sense, But very brilliant ways. I'm not comparing myself to Ajahn Chah, Sorry, Because I have a long way to go to be that wise and skillful in interactions, You know. I will say, Though, That at some point, I just have to, I can't, I don't think that's conducive for me, You know, Because I just. You know, I would ignore a lot of that, But then I would be ignored a lot too, And I'd be okay with that. And then there'd be a few people there that I would really connect with and that didn't play those games a lot, And I just spent more time interacting with them, You know, And that I needed to be how I need to be around other people and other situations. And there's a huge international community in some of these too. So that whole thing didn't really apply as much, Right? So friends from Sri Lanka, I would say, Not to generalize or stereotype here, But the faith and the, I think the maybe fervor even around being inspired by the Buddha as a historical figure, The teachings, The usefulness of teaching. I don't really have a reference point for how kind of reverent and faithful that is. And it was just, It inspired me in a way, Because I was like, Wow, I didn't know people could be like that. You know what I mean around it? And yeah, I'm trying to think of some other areas. Like in America, I think there's some kind of war going. I'm saying that a little bit jokingly, But I really don't follow this thing. There's a couple of people from Iran and Israel in the same, And it got along great. And I love the dominant who they were as individuals. So it's just so ridiculous to me that people are wanting to harm each other. But anyway, And so, Yeah, And people from Europe, Even from Germany, It's a whole different way of kind of seeing the world than the English do. I mean, It's a little more similar. So it's just like, Yeah, Yeah, You have to, I think you have to be okay with being weird, Standing out, Not fitting in, But also kind of knowing your place and knowing the limits of that, When to exercise that more and when to dial it back, You know what I mean? And because my life got so much better, But at least for me, Maybe not so much for other people, When I, That what other people think about me is none of my business. You know, Having spent time in England and known people, There are a lot of English people in Australia. And, You know, A former boss and she said, You know, She realized after being here, It's like, Well, What will people think? And she said, Well, I actually don't know that. You have to actually ask them to find out what do they think. But it's a huge thing in England. And I guess in terms of friendship. Yeah. So like it was just interesting, This whole idea of what does friendship look like in spiritual friendship look like in the different cultures. So that was the question I was trying to figure out. And, You know, Here in Australia, I mean, I don't have really much. I mean, I go to a there is a group that's in Brisbane and I go to a one a day long once a month in Brisbane. And I see them. But I'm in the outskirts so I can't go to any of the classes during the week. And so I can't form friendships there at all. Yeah, So it's quite, I think it's. . . I think it's hard. When I was in Sydney a long time ago when I first started meditating. It was a particular tradition which really focused on building the community and that the edges to learn on were with the other people in the congregation. And I use the word congregation because There is a teacher whose name I've just completely forgotten. And she was saying, I don't know why you call it Sangha. Sangha is the monastics. They're the people in robes who've gone through that. What you're talking about is congregation. And I think I prefer to use the word congregation because I think we have taken this kind of church experience, Christian church experience, And applied that. I probably have like You probably have what? Digress. Oh, No, No, It's the technical term, It's the fourfold assembly. You have the monastic males, The monastic females, And then you have the laities, Male and female, The fourfold assembly. But I don't, Yeah, That's gonna sound a little awkward if we start saying, Yeah, I don't know how you refer to the laity or sometimes say lay person, Lay people, Stuff like that. But yeah, Wendy, You know, I just talked to my buddy in England that I've met at monasteries, And we talked about practice today and summit to practice and how The lineage I'm in now is differing from this. So I was wondering, A lot of times, I would just, If it seemed to be a connection, Just kind of exchange numbers if they're up for that. And then later on, I will maybe once a year or something blast through with almost the same message, And then just see who takes the bait, So to speak, Or is interested. And a lot of them, They won't respond. It was just kind of a nicety. And so I just kind of know, OK, Well, That is just kind of a one-time thing, And that's totally cool. Other ones, There's different levels of engagement. And it's also, I have to put the kind of onus on me, Because if I want some kind of spiritual friendship, I'm going to have to put forth the effort. And it's real easy. If it's not reciprocated, Then that's OK. Then just let that fall away. But then it's there. So how much do I really value this? Now, It's different if I'm giving all and not getting anything back. But that's different. So that's kind of how I approach it a lot. And I love the richness of different traditions cultures because they all have a little bit something else to add. And they can act as different types of mirrors and angles that I don't normally get, You know, And kind of more monocultures and stuff. OK, So let me I think since we're trying to find out what it looks like, Let's just this is called the Mita Sutta. And it's just seven points. A friend worth associating with is someone who, Number one, Gives what is hard to give, Like generosity of time, Energy and resources. 2. Does what is hard to do. Helps you out even when it's highly inconvenient. 3. Endures what is hard to endure. Bears with your bad moods, Flaws, Or difficult moments. 4. Reveals their secrets to you. They trust you with their vulnerability. 5. Keeps your secrets. Your private struggles are entirely safe with them. 6. Doesn't abandon you in times of trouble. They stick around when life gets messy. Number seven, Doesn't look down on you when you're down and out. They don't judge or scorn you when you fail to lose your status. These are summations of this sutta. So we've got some about giving, Enduring secrets, And about how they view you and sticking with you. So I think these are pretty good traits. What do you think, Wendy? Ah, You know, If I was around somebody who treated me like that, I'm like, Yeah, Like I'm out, You know, Like this is not friendship. This is, This is a really unpleasant situation. So to me, Well, Like, I guess it depends on the frequency of bad behavior. Like, But if someone's if someone's kind of. Like I get that people get into bad moods and all that sort of stuff. I quite like John Gottman's stuff or the Gottman Institute, That you have to have 19 positive interactions before you have a negative one in order for a relationship to be successful. Kind of good. So if you were 19 times really lovely, Genuinely lovely or thank you and appreciative and all the rest and had a good laugh and then on that 20th time they said oh man I'm having a really bad time then all fair and good but once you get below that ratio actually it's not a good relationship. So you're saying if it's constant crisis all the time, It's not worth doing it? Yeah, Yeah, That's right. So I think this applies to someone that if you've hung around them or known them for a long time, And you still wanna be with them, Not when you're trying to win or get new friends, You know what I mean? I don't think this is a starting point for friendship. I think this is what kind of strengthens it and has the benchmark. I think, Yeah, Like you were saying, It's kind of a rarity in the world. And I would apply this actually to people that I've known for a long time that I consider my friends and see how it stacks up. And it's really, Really interesting to see that and see my role in this too. How well do I stack up and fulfill these requirements or not requirements, But these benchmarks and when do they make sense to do and when not? And then what does that say about how I value myself, The other, And then friendship in general? Know. I don't know. Um. . . Yeah, Actually, I was thinking about a friend of mine, And she and I were at school together, So not spiritual, But this is ordinary friendship. And she has somebody in her life who is what they call fictive kin, Because we all had English parents, So we don't have any cousins, And we don't have any sort of extended family. And so this person was essentially her cousin, And we were all at school together. And And then my friend just said, You know what, I actually just don't think she's a kind, She's not somebody I want to hang out with. And they I mean we're now coming up to 60. I'll be 60 next month. So this is somebody she has known kind of her whole life and it's just happened in the last couple of years where she suddenly looked at this person who she had always thought was had certain qualities and traits and was good at this and you know caring and kind and then she just went ah she's actually not a very nice person. And so I was going, Oh, Be careful about giving away that friendship because that's somebody you've known a really long time. And then she decided, No, This is not where I want to go. So I mean, That's not spiritual friendship. That is just friendship. But I think it's. There are, You know, I guess, Where is the deal breaker? You know, There's something, I think there's a point sometimes where you're in a relationship and you just Add things up and you go, Actually, This person is not who they seem or how I thought they were is not. Now my understanding. Then we have this, Yeah, It's really good points. And I know when I first started this kind of journey, Let's just say, Or waking up and started getting on the path or however we want to put it, Right, That gradually a lot of my old friends, I would say probably 90% fell away. And as I changed and growed and evolved, Then I made new friends. And there was a really long period there where I was alone, You know, And didn't have many friends or I didn't feel like I could relate to anybody. Anybody could relate to me during that transition period. But of course, In hindsight, Yeah, This is very common on the spiritual path, I hear, To go through these transitions, Especially of waking up, If we wanna call it that or whatever. But yeah, So we can talk about these two just as standard friendships as well. I think these little guidelines, They're helpful in regular friendships too. Now, Who wants to you know, Never get close to anyone by not telling them any secrets, You know what I mean? When they're appropriate to do so, You know? Because I think that's a sign of, You know, More of a depth. Now, It doesn't have to be like a really earth-shattering secret or anything, Or please keep, You know, I don't know, We have to, What does that even mean? But a big one is obviously, If you do, Then somebody's just not gonna go spilling it about, Especially if you ask them to do it. Kind of a deal breaker, I think, Too, Just in regular friendships. Wendy, Go ahead. You have something here. Yeah, It's interesting, You know, I think one of the things that can make a difference in a friendship is depth. Some people aren't deep. Yeah, That's okay. That's, That's, That's it. And then some people. Aren't shallow. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah, You're right. And so, You know, There can be a mismatch about that. And so. . . I don't actually know what makes somebody deep. And it's interesting because I was talking with depth with a colleague, A former colleague who's Chinese, And I said, What's the word? In that context for deep. And she said, It's the same, It's deep. And I thought that was very interesting. So there must be some neurological thing about what is deep and what is shallow or how does, Why is it deep? Why do we say it's deep? Is it because it sort of rules, It's deep from the bottom of the mind and kind of comes up or something? Yeah, You go. No, That's a really good question. And I mean, What's coming to mind is, It goes into things that we normally aren't on the surface, Right? Things that everybody can connect to, And it's no big deal. But all of a sudden, Something kind of hits us. And, You know, Oh, Where did that come from? Or, You know, That's not what I'm used to dealing with all the time. Or, You know, Where's the reference point for that? Or it reminds me of something that's really significant that happened and how I felt when that happened or when that came up and talked about that. These are some of the things that are coming to mind. But these other guidelines, I think these are like the creme de la creme, The pinnacle of gives what's hard to give. To me, On a more surface level, That just means giving. You're kind and generous to some whatever degree that both agree on would make a good friend. Does what's hard to do, Meaning you're going to spend a little bit of extra effort maybe in the friendship when don't expect the other person maybe to do everything. And then enduring, Again, That goes into maybe effort, But instead of enduring, Just we talk about fair weather friends, Right? That's a term that people know about, Right? Don't- I'm probably a fair weather friend. You know, I mean, There's a time and place for those, I think, Too, You know, Because we have our own lives as well. You know, But I probably am a fair weather friend, You know, I am probably, I like to have a conversation with somebody, I enjoy that person. And then I don't know, I just kind of go, Oh, Well, I feel like the friendship has run its course. And, And I'm sort of not particularly enjoying that person, But yeah. And I'm actually hurt very quickly. So that's a very, You know, Not such a great part of my personality. So if somebody says something or does something, I can frequently feel quite hurt and then that's not very helpful for other people. And that's not helpful for me. So I think there is something. About that to bring in about friendship, Yeah. Yeah, This has been a big topic on our show here, If you want to call it that. I think it's a really rich and important one too. So there's a lot of dynamics going on here, Wendy. Of course, If we're Buddhists and we're practicing this path in general, It's about non-harming. So this is a big deal, You know? And I don't know, Wendy, I think when you said, Hurt. It's not helpful for other people. So it's like this double whammy. What do I do with that? You know what I mean? Because it's so tough. I mean, This world really is a veil of tears. I mean, We're all bubbly and lighthearted here. But seriously, That cuts both ways. Not only is it painful enough to feel hurt, And then the tendency then is to lash out and blame someone else. Or blame myself. And then, I'm sorry, Then feel the extra mile. Okay, I feel hurt, But then I'm actually hurting someone else by being hurt. And then me even pointing that out is hurtful, Can be. And then it's just snowballs and snowballs and snowballs. And it's like this double bind after double bind after double bind. And it's just, What a, I don't know what to say. But it is. It needs addressing. It's just I don't have the skill and wisdom to do that. Because it just seems like it compounds here. And this is why it's such a core thing of harm and hurt. It is a huge thing. But I would say the thing is more, You know, You have to take responsibility for your own feelings of feeling hurt. Because, You know, Who hasn't done that thing? It's like, Well, I'm not hurt, And then. . . Or kind of taken it internally or whatever it is or moved away from people who were just felt a little bit whatever. So yeah, I think there is, I think for me the dharma is always I have to look at my own experience here. And how I'm kind of dealing with whatever is going on. Whether I'm skimming over the surface or reacting badly or indulging. In whatever way, But I just feel that But that's kind of the nub of it because I really feel that you can talk the theory and you can talk the Dharma and you can talk philosophy and you say this is what you should be doing. But it's actually sort of the experience starts with the body. I've always felt that, That it's when you And so here I am here, And then. . . What is the reaction? And then how do I move with the body into this space? So to me, That's why I talk about hurt and we have talked about a lot. And that's because it's sort of a deep inquiry point. Because actually I heard of a nunnery And what they used to do is recite the 37 practices of bodhisattva. So it's 37 verses. And when I was living in England, Actually working there, And I used to recite these, I memorized them, These 37 verses and it was so helpful because I was in this horrible workplace and people were cold and aloof and they didn't understand that I was actually incredibly lonely and so they misread a lot of my signals because I was actually, I was not happy in my relationship, I left the relationship and I was just having this bad time. And they're very, Very unsympathetic to me. And I used to, They kind of do, You know, Not very nice things, Say and do stuff, Small things, You know, Like there's this thing about the only kind of speech, If you say something mean, That's bad speech. But if you don't say anything at all, That is kind of not seen as bad speech, Whereas I would say that is bad speech when people just remove or are aloof. That to me is bad speech. And or unwholesome speech whatever you want to call it and so I used to recite these and I found them so incredibly helpful but I heard about a nunnery and they used to though there's a shorter version of the 37 practices of bodhisattva and they used to go through them and there would be these kind of sort of swirls of emotions and These practices kind of reciting them every day just kept them grounded and stopped them kind of going. When it comes to the Dharma and living with other people and living with other spiritual people, I think something like those verses, Reciting them every day, Can be hugely beneficial to stop you kind of getting carried away in those very confined, Frustrating spaces where you're kind of cutting, You know, These jewels in our bodhisattva path. Yeah, That's lovely. And maybe that would be a topic for another day, Since you have a lot of experience with those. And I haven't decided which, If I want to do Bodhisattva path or Arhat path, So to speak, Either. So ultimately, But it doesn't matter. I'm so far away from needing to choose that anyway. But with this, To me, And I would totally agree, And I get to see this in kind of a safer container of unsilent retreat, Right? Everybody's agreeing that we're not snubbing each other. So it's a different dynamic not one you're talking about, But it does have the element of silence. And I do get to see how easily I can smooth over things and smooth out things with language and gloss over things, You know, But also have a real genuine heart connection and really kind of work it out and see where we stand. And then this is about all that we're going to talk to each other with, And then that's it. And then we'll just go our own ways, No hard feelings, But we know where we stand and we know how to interact in a certain way now because, You know, Of certain guidelines, And of course it will change. But yeah, And how when I'm silent in retreat, Then there's still this unspoken tension on certain things. There's still projections. Oh, Why are they like that? Are they meaning to do this? Or why are they acting that way? Or then how should I act when they're doing that? And I can't talk. So the mind wants to fill in the gaps and understand, But it doesn't have as much experience doing that as it does with language, At least for me. So I can be a motor mouth sometimes. And so it's a very interesting dynamic practice to show where I'm a little bit off and crazy and filling in the gaps. But when you talk about this dynamic, You're talking about with the kind of maybe stiff upper lip of the English that they say. And I would say, Yeah, That's right. There's a time to remain silent. And then there's a time to promote social ease and well-being and camaraderie. So that's right. And being silent can also be an avoidance, But it's all about the intent behind it, You know? Why am I intending to speak? Why am I intending to be silent? That's where the real comic payoff will be, Because when I act or even don't act, And there's an intentionality behind it, That's gonna have a consequence, Good, Bad, Otherwise, You know? So that's right. What it does speak to, Wendy, Too, Though, You know, I mean, We're not talking about blatant physical hurt. That's obvious to everybody You know, We're talking about really sign fine and subtle kind of emotionality maybe even energy and You know even thoughts I would say sometimes so that sensitivity can actually be a strength I find in some situations Maybe that's too much of a silver lining kind of approach, But also this vulnerability You know if we kind of have this callous shielding which a lot of people do because they don't want to feel or be vulnerable. That's kind of a protective mechanism. But when you let it in and actually can feel that it's hurt, In a way, That's admirable to a degree, Because that shows that you can really have a depth of connection and heart. Because that vulnerability is there, You know what I mean to be able to feel on that level now That's not an excuse for people to say. Oh, Yeah, I just you know, I'm helping Wendy on her You know path of being more vulnerable and open her heart and I'll just you know I'll just be the put on the you know The black hat and say I'm just gonna step up this role because if I didn't do this, You know Wendy would would just be spaced out and not really loving your kind No, That's BS. That doesn't doesn't work like that. You know what I mean? So I don't want to just give that as an excuse excuse for people's bad behavior and not willing to do what needs to be done. You know what I mean? I mean, Yeah. But we are all responsible for our own speech and action and intents. And how people take it, We're only partially responsible for that. Because it would be lovely if I can control how everybody took exactly what I said. Life would be so easy if I could do that. But I can't do it to 100%. Yesterday at this community building course, The woman sitting next to me, It's week two and there's six weeks. And last week she was like, The rest of us is all like, We want to try and get on with each other. But she's like, What's that? Anyway, She's kind of like this, Not like that kind of person. And so the instructor was saying, You know, When you want to build community, You know, You know, Don't get, You know, Read chapter two. And it says, You know, Don't get anxious and too dominant and too controlling. And she pulls it out and says, Yeah, So this is what you shouldn't be doing. And I'm just going. Thanks, I've already read the book. And it's like, Yep, I'm all good on the chapter. She's just this really awful. . . I mean, I find her really unbearable. I mean, Was she doing that as a joke or was she serious? No, No, No. Oh, No, I shouldn't. No, No, No. Oh, My God. Last week, Somebody sort of. . . I mean, That's surreal. That's very bizarre. Last week she was sitting next to somebody over there and there was somebody next to me. There was a weird handout and this person. Um. . . The person sitting next to me just sort of was about to give them the sort of leftover to the middle of the class because there was a bit of a gap between the two women and this woman is a bit funny. She's on the other side and going, Hello. And it's like, And then she goes. Thank you in this really snide voice. So, This is kind of group living. This is kind of, What does it mean when you're in a monastery? And monasteries are exactly the same. Nunneries are exactly the same. I've had those experiences in nunneries where you just go, Oh my goodness, This person is really awful. And we are all patients in the clinic, You know. So. I have a really pivotal story about that. I don't think I'm ready to tell it publicly here. Yeah, But maybe off. But yeah, No, I know what you're talking about. And sometimes they can be really intense. But by and far, What I like about staying there is everybody's on the same page, Or more or less, To some degree or another. And so they're kind of responsible and answerable to that. And if they're too far off the page, Then basically call them out. And then we can get back on the same page, Or they go on. So I would say, Yeah. But, You know, I was thinking about Robina Corton. I don't know if you've ever heard of her. She's an Australian nun. And she joined because. . . She had basically run out of people to hate. So she arrived in the monastery and she could not sit for seven years. She was just wild. Oh, I think I've heard that story. Keep going though, Yeah. And she's just very, Very intense and complicated, One of several sisters. Anyway, Complicated childhood, But very, Very, Very feisty character. And I cannot imagine her being anything other than like this woman Yeah, Like. A warmer version but still just as kind of right and I just sit there going so in that situation like if I say anything to this woman you know, It's just going to escalate. So there's no point in doing that. And I have to kind of take it and I don't want to take it. I want her to have it. So I guess as we wind up for our last five minutes, I'd be curious to see how you respond in that situation. I think I would probably fail. I do want to talk about pseudo partners if we can really briefly, But let me just give me a moment here. It depends. It depends how I think it's not an easy answer. I mean, I would probably, Usually I make wisecracks, And I don't have the restraint you do actually, Wendy. It is really wise, And I don't advise anybody to do what I do, Because I would advise them to do more restraint, And I'm still working on that myself. And that includes, It's easier to restrain action, Of course, Yeah. But speech, Yeah, I got a lot to work on with that. But the more subtle important thing, Because it drives our speech and actions, Is our thinking. So that is the real key that meditation helps with as well. But yeah, I would probably make some kind of wisecrack remark or try to do something to point out her behavior to her and mirror her behavior back to her. Or another way to do it would be more socially appropriate is wait if there's an opportunity outside, Away from everyone, And just approach it that way. I don't know what you would say, But how you say it is going to be just as important, If not more, Than what you say. I think that would be the way to do it. And like you say, You probably have the wisdom already that you'll be wasting energy and it could make things worse. There's just those type of people, You know? But you also don't want to be cold and ignoring either because that's basically the same thing. So again, Another kind of rock and a hard place, You know? But that is a good strategy in certain times, So for a certain time, You know? So this notion of a pseudo partner, Though, Of course not, Wendy, This is, And I didn't know this term or whatever, But basically, I don't know if I'm using the right context, Basically a platonic thing from the opposite sex. And it looks like kind of a friendship sometimes, But it's actually, I guess, Supposed to be fulfilling a more intimate role with the other person without the physical intimacy, Let's just say, That they're lacking either in their own intimate relationships or whatever. And I didn't even know that for the first step, If this is even a thing, To actually see it. Because if it is a thing, I was just confusing it for a friendship. I think there's more gray lines in Dharma communities because it is a lot of times about the Dharma, But somebody that's not familiar, They look at it, They might see it as a pseudo relationship. But then again, I don't know, Maybe it is. Do you have anything to say about this before we wrap up here? Because I can barely identify this and I don't even know. So I can't do anything with it if I'm not really identifying it. I guess just I don't know anything about it I'll be honest but just thinking about it okay so you've got nuns and monks in separate quarters basically for long periods of time. And Maybe it's speaking to that arrangement, That men and women can be friends, But they must never cross that line. Yeah, But I'm not thinking in a monastic thing here. This is only amongst a laity. Maybe it happens there or not. I don't know. But I'm just talking about a few females that I've interacted with that I thought was a completely benign friend in that sense. It still is, Obviously. It's just I didn't realize that there could be a potential that they're interacting to get certain, I guess, Emotional needs met. I don't know how to put this. And I've got to be very careful here because I don't really know what I'm talking about. And it's maybe a little bit too personal. So yeah, I can speak to that. I can speak to that. Okay. So women I guess I'll speak about my experience. Relationships that I find with other women are great, But they can be really, Really intense. So I have quite a lot of friendships with guys, And they actually often are previous partners. Don't tell my partner this. They're often previous partners where we remain friends, But we've sort of moved out of that whole thing. It's quite It's good because we know each other well enough. But we haven't got that kind of sexual stuff between us. And you know relationships with women are kind of intense and full-on and it's like oh man it's like not that personal it's not and with guys it's like They don't get all that other extra bit in there that it's sort of missing. And so you can actually have that kind of a conversation. It's quite nice to have that diluted thing in a way that with guys, I imagine you've got this kind of really like aloof experience. And then when you have a conversation with a woman, It's like, Ah, I can actually talk about and express this more intimate side of me that I can't do with my guy friends. In a way, It's the opposite for women. Where we have this like hyper intensity and then it's like you need to have that dialed down and you can you can speak with a guy. That's all I would say. Hey, It's time! I think that's very helpful, Wendy. Yeah, Thank you for that. It explains a lot of these dynamics. Well, And with that, Until next time, Y'all find your wise friends and yeah, And figure that out and ask for feedback. Yeah, And keep saying in this crazy world. Yeah, Yes, Please. And definitely write in with your help and responses for that for me. And I don't know about Wendy, But yes, Stay safe. I love you all. Goodbye.