Rites Of Passage With Paula Conroy

Transformational leader Paul Conroy and I talk about Rites of Passage; Paula's transition from Corporate Banking into Mature Feminine Leadership development; initiations; trusting intuition when going through unknowns; indigenous wisdom; the power of telling and listening to each other's stories around a fire; levels of consciousness expressed at various types of events; parental involvement in Rites of Passage; interconnectedness; family dynamics; integration; trauma; triggers; bypassing; self-responsibility; gender programs, confusion, and inquiry; inclusivity; diversity; unity; remembering who we are; catalysts for awakening and change; what the world needs right now; healing; community and more.

Please note: This track may include some explicit language.

Transcript

So Paula Conroy and I recorded this on August 29th,

2023.

I was in a nature park,

And from a full charge from the start,

My cell phone connection somehow drained completely out by the end.

Luckily,

The service we used continued recording Susan and I on both ends separately.

I finished uploading my portion from my laptop later,

After I got back online.

The magical internet.

If it seems disjointed or incongruent,

That's because I removed a couple of parts at the end where I unknowingly talk over her after the connection drops.

And without further ado,

Here's Paula and I.

Hey wholeness,

Welcome.

This is Josh Dippold of Integrating Presence,

And today I have Paula Conroy with me.

Paula,

How's it going today?

Hey Josh,

I'm really good,

Thank you.

It's actually evening here for me.

I'm based out in Australia,

So the night has already begun in Australia.

We're no longer in the day.

That's right,

I keep forgetting the international nature sometimes of these things.

A little mind-bending sometimes to consider all this.

So what I usually do is,

Since we haven't really talked hardly at all,

I'm going to throw it back to you and ask,

Who is Paula and what does she do?

And what has happened to get you from where you were to where you are now?

Great question.

And who is Paula?

Wow,

What a big question.

We could start with just the infinite facet of non-dual awareness that is each of us as a fractal of the oneness consciousness.

But as Paula,

I am a transformational rites of passage facilitator.

And what that means is that I facilitate transformational experiences,

Processes,

Rituals,

Ceremonies and transitions for people who are moving from one stage of life into the next.

And bringing back the ancient wisdom that is in traditional rites of passage ceremonies for Indigenous cultures from around the world into a modern day context and into a modern day culture.

Because there's so much wisdom and insight and sort of historic knowledge and being,

A level of being within those processes that support people to move from one stage of life to the next in a really healthy way.

And it's something that unfortunately we don't do very well in our culture.

We've forgotten,

Especially in the West,

How to mark key transition moments of our lives.

And so we are living currently in a world of uninitiated adults who are not necessarily initiated into their maturity or initiated into the next stage of their evolution as a human being,

Not a human doing,

But as a human being.

And so we have technically people that are stuck in their level of consciousness of their youth,

Of their childhood and reacting from parts of their childhood that are no longer actually needed or necessary in the current day adult that they are.

And so,

You know,

I came to this work because I went through a really big transition myself.

I used to work in corporate banking for 15 years,

Holding senior leadership positions within that organization.

It was a global bank.

I looked after large multi-jurisdictional teams across many different locations and managed a really large balance sheet and defended a really large balance sheet and was very much in that world for a long time.

Thriving at times in the complexity and the excitement of what it meant to be as part of a global system such as that,

It was a global bank I worked for,

And really enjoying many of the facets of learning about how captive networks around the world can really support the spreading of an idea or of a way of being at scale.

There was always that interesting facet to me of like,

Wow,

We've got a real captive network here of 300,

000 people working in this organization.

Imagine what's possible if we turned lights on around this organization.

So I did a lot of work there off the side of my desk.

My day job had lots to do with banking,

But my work within the organization was always people orientated.

And that was either within my leadership role or within the role of the employee resource group that I worked as a co-chair with a friend of mine,

Who we brought in mindfulness programs,

We brought in health programs,

We brought in fitness programs,

All in service to the people,

The greatest asset of the bank and the institution.

But then,

You know,

There was this time when it came to a certain point in my journey there with the bank that there was a knock from the inside of my being.

There was this sense of agitation,

The sense of an awareness growing,

Kind of creeping in day by day,

Month by month,

That this is not,

In fact,

The life that I'm meant to be living.

This is not the path that I'm meant to be on.

And I'm being called to something different,

But I actually have no idea what that is.

And so that sense of agitation now,

In retrospect,

When I look back,

Is really that invitation from consciousness,

From the universe,

Calling to us to find our true calling,

To really turn towards the path that we're meant to be living and meant to be walking down.

But we don't have the tools from our culture,

Our upbringing,

Our education,

From our community,

From our parents to really know how to transition from one stage of life to the next.

You know,

We've been funneled down these avenues of what a good life looks like,

You know,

Get a job,

Get the 2.

5 kids,

Get the dog and the white picket fence and,

You know,

Follow all these steps.

And that's what success looks like when,

In actual fact,

So many people are struggling with that.

So many people find themselves with all of that.

And then they're like,

Well,

I'm not actually that happy.

And so for me,

Yeah,

Discovering rites of passage and,

Well,

First going through a rather messy transition,

I'd say,

From my side,

You know,

Not necessarily having the culture,

The tools,

The know-how to transition well.

And in that messy transition,

Discovering how to do it well by utilizing these ancient processes and practices that are inherent within rites of passage,

Passage processes and ceremonies to support me to transition well.

And now I support other people to do the same,

Which is fantastic.

Well,

Very cool and very amazing.

Before we get into rites of passage,

Which I'm very,

Very interested in,

I wanted to see what else you could say about navigating this labyrinth of the banking system,

You know,

Especially on a huge global level,

You know,

With,

I won't mention the things I could about the banking system.

So I'm fascinated about what that was like,

Maybe on personally navigating from the inside out of that and the transition,

Especially how to go to such an entrenched,

I would say lots of programs involved in that industry too,

And how to navigate out of them or transition out of them or what you did and how you did it.

Yeah,

No,

I mean,

Really good questions.

You know,

I'd say first up,

The banking system itself is made up with a lot of people and people are awesome.

And I feel like there's there's,

You know,

Certainly my experience of it where,

You know,

People if in the past I'd mentioned I work in banking,

People like,

Oh,

Banking,

You know,

There'd be this real aversion from a lot of people around,

Around it as a system.

And there's so much bad press about it.

It's such a complex,

Complicated,

Convoluted system of infrastructure and people and processes that it is by its very nature,

A large complex beast that is going to get things very wrong.

And unfortunately,

You know,

Human dynamics do come into it where people have been,

You know,

Influenced in ways in which they potentially,

You know,

Under duress,

Perhaps,

Or under whatever circumstances,

People have done things along the way that have not that have not been right,

That have been questionable.

You know,

But my personal lived experience of it was that majority of the people that I worked with were all really good,

Hardworking,

Honest,

Kind,

Caring people that were there to do a good job,

Were there to make a difference.

You know,

There was this real sense of,

Of connecting to purpose within the organization of,

You know,

You know,

We are connecting to we are connecting customers with,

You know,

Businesses with opportunities and customers with businesses.

And the way in which we do that is through moving money around the world and through holding that money for customers and for businesses.

And so there was this real sense of enablement that came through as part of the values,

You know,

How to act with courageous integrity,

You know,

How to be open,

How to be connected,

How to be dependable,

How to hold the right behaviors.

Like,

There were so many things that were trying to be done well within that very large,

Complex,

Difficult system.

But my personal experience was,

Was of it that the system was like,

It was like glue or goo.

Trying to make change in this really slow,

Large,

Complex beast of an organization and of a general industry is incredibly difficult when there's so much density and inertia,

The systems are so dated.

And,

You know,

In the last sort of five years,

We've seen the banking infrastructure come on leaps and bounds.

And this is in possibly response or reaction to what we're seeing emerge with things like the cryptocurrencies,

Bitcoin,

The lightning network,

All the ways in which the messaging services around funds and money can update.

But it's possibly going to be too little too late,

You know,

I mean,

I'm going to have to,

I'm really curious to see what's going to happen around what happens with the movement of money around the world,

Because transparency is most important.

And although there have been great steps to improve transparency within the banking industry,

There's still so much room for error,

Because there's so much data,

There's so many dated systems,

And there's so many clusters on the background of what it is that happens in the banking industry.

I think most people out in the street would be quite shocked at the level of manual intervention that's involved there.

So,

You know,

There was always the sense of like,

Wow,

We could do this better.

And then trying and persevering around that,

And then getting stuck in the bureaucracy of it and stuck in the challenge of trying to initiate change within an organization or within an industry that was just so big,

So unwieldy,

So difficult to manage.

That,

You know,

The opportunity kept getting missed,

You know,

Didn't operate fast enough to be able to sustain some kind of direction in a new way that was going to be really meaningful for the customer,

Ultimately for the customer.

You know,

And so for me in that journey,

Although I learned,

I mean,

I did,

I learned an extraordinarily huge amount while I was there,

You know,

Really detailed experience of how to work within a captive network and how to relate with people in that organization and how to interact with customers and high level customers of CFOs and CEOs and COOs and be able to really piece together treasury functions and exciting stuff.

It was really like,

Wow,

Big things would happen in the paper.

And we were a part of that process of initiating that kind of change for something to happen.

So,

You know,

It was incredible,

Incredibly macro and micro at the same time.

And so for me,

I feel personally like my experience,

15 years in one organization there was that I really got the sense of the oneness of the globe.

You know,

People that I would talk to that work in their own local industry as gorgeous as that is.

I mean,

I work in a large organization or a global organization now,

But the people that are working very local have this real sense of localization,

This real sense of almost a bubble mentality.

And for me,

I had the privilege of having,

You know,

A real global sense of mentality.

The world was everything.

So it was like everybody all together.

How do we get something from,

You know,

Cuba across to the US and then over into China?

And how do we make all of that work?

How do we synchronize all of that?

So I feel very grateful for that perspective that it gave me.

And at the same time,

You know,

Through that career,

I started waking up to,

Wow,

The necessity for change to happen,

Not just on an infrastructure level,

But also very much on a personal level.

You know,

We needed to make greater changes around diversity and inclusion.

We needed to make greater changes around gender equality.

I just kept seeing these attempts to be made to create inclusivity and diversity within teams and within structures,

And yet somehow always seemed to default back to the old way of being.

There would be a woman and a man right at the end of that process,

And bang,

The man would land up getting it for whatever reason.

And that kind of thing got really disheartening for me for a while.

And there's quite a lot of anger that rose up in me as I started to wake up to the prejudices,

The injustice,

The internalized patriarchy,

Et cetera,

Et cetera,

Within that complex environment.

And I recognized that,

Hey,

Everything in my life is always a mirror for something that's going on inside of me.

So I can take that view of pointing my finger outward and blaming this system and blaming the people for all of these challenging experiences I'm having in reaction to what I'm experiencing on the outside.

Or I can really practice what I preach,

Which is taking radical self-responsibility for recognizing that if I'm triggered,

It belongs to me and it's nobody else's fault.

There's something in me that is requiring my attention.

I need to hunt that process down within me in order to be able to be a part of the solution,

A part of that healing process that this world needs,

Instead of perpetuating the trauma by blaming,

Creating separateness,

Pointing my finger outward.

And in order for me to do that,

I knew that I had to step out of that system.

I had to remove myself from the contracted environment in order to create the possibility,

The environment,

The fertile bed within which I could go through that deep healing journey and go through all of the processes that are associated with that.

The dismantling of my internalized capitalist,

My attachment to the money,

My attachment to being somebody important in inverted commas,

Having a big job title,

Feeling my sense of self-worth by externalizing that through some sense of external structure,

Making me feel like I was worth something.

And in that,

There was a real dissolution,

A dissolution of that egoic construct of that person that was in that position.

And it was painful and it was terrifying because I didn't know what I was dissolving into.

And I was leaving so much behind.

Like there was this wonderful,

Glossy career path that I had.

With all the support in the world,

Being a female leader in banking,

I had all the support in the world.

And yet I chose to turn away from that and deal with the,

Well,

The implications,

I don't want to say consequence,

But the implications of that choice and having to get really super comfortable with trusting in the unknown,

With trusting in that call to transition was taking me on a journey that even though I didn't know where I was going,

I was going into the unknown as good old Elsa from Frozen says,

You know,

Into the unknown.

And I don't have any guarantees that anything is going to,

That I don't have any guarantees that something is going to come out of this that's going to be fruitful.

I have to just trust in this intuition and trust in this instinctive knowing and trust in the resonance that I have to know that this part of my life needs to die in order for this next phase of my life to emerge,

Which is more aligned to who I am.

And more aligned to the purpose that I came here to be.

Within the corporate world for a while.

And I saw how climbing the ladder wasn't going to lead me to a lot of happiness and fulfillment.

At the same time,

I had no idea what the alternative was.

So I had to completely get off one train in order to create and be in a huge process for a long time before creating my own thing.

And yes,

What I hear you saying too is it's about consent.

What are we consenting to and what are we feeding,

You know?

And of course,

The thing about blaming externally,

That's a huge thing I'm still working on projecting in.

And of course,

Yes,

The trigger,

I always say,

If I get,

I love to be triggered out because that just shows me what I still need to work on.

Very good points here.

And so if you would share anything about what you went through after you kind of hopped off of that,

And the transformational process that happens,

And then maybe how that ties into,

I want to get back to then these rites of passage,

Because I'll just set it up a little bit here.

In the West,

Like you're absolutely right that I know of,

The only kind of rites of passage are these dark awakenings,

I would think,

You know,

Going out,

Getting completely disillusioned with the world.

I shouldn't say the only,

But getting into trouble,

Maybe doing things maybe I'm not proud of,

Kind of testing limits,

Not knowing what to do and figuring it out later.

Lack of mentors and guides,

Not seeing the importance of ethics,

Just basically a lot of confusion and disarray.

I'm sure there's other healthy ones.

Now,

When I look at Native cultures,

They've got these built in,

From what I understand,

From a long time ago,

Where it's,

Yeah,

And I'll let you talk about that,

Because at your wheelhouse,

You know way more about that than I.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

Yeah,

Look,

You know,

There are many ways in which we can approach key transition moments,

And that's really,

You know,

Rites of passage have got the framework for that process.

You know,

This is a term,

Rites of passage,

Rite coming from ritual and passage,

Obviously,

Being something in between two doors.

But,

You know,

Recognizing that when we are moving through the passageway,

That there's ritual that comes into that process in order for us to create the type of compression that is needed in order for that transition to be done really well.

And you've really well articulated there the shadow side of not having any healthy rites of passage in our modern day times or in our Western world is that ultimately we go out and we create them for ourselves,

That every transition requires something,

Some form of compression.

If we think about a baby coming from the womb out into the world,

It gets compressed in the birth canal.

We think about a butterfly metamorphosing into a,

Or a caterpillar metamorphosing into a butterfly,

It dissolves completely and then it forms in its cocoon before it breaks through.

You know,

We need to create some form of compression for there to be a transformation,

For the individual to be compressed through,

To become aware of what needs to drop off and die in this old phase of their lives,

To be able to make the space and the availability within their level of being and within their consciousness,

Within their minds,

To be able to vision into a new version of ourselves.

You know,

So without creating healthy rites of passage that by their very nature always hold a challenge and an ordeal,

A challenge or an ordeal,

There's always something that we need to press against to learn.

I'm pretty sure many of the listeners out there can resonate with the fact that when we look back on our lives,

It's usually through the toughest times that we've learned the most and grown the most.

As difficult as they have been to be in,

Most of us will look back and say,

Wow,

That was one of the hardest things I've ever done and oh my gosh,

I grew the most.

And that's the whole point of rites of passage is to bring back a healthy,

Safe,

Culturally appropriate,

Challenging experience to support,

Especially the children transitioning into young adulthood through that adolescent window.

You know,

Somebody transitioning into death,

Somebody transitioning into marriage,

Somebody transitioning into having a child,

To create the understanding and the awareness within the community of the fact that there's always going to be an endemic challenge and ordeal.

And let's share our stories about that.

Those that have gone before us,

Let's share our stories about that.

The elders need to tell their stories and the youth need to hear the stories.

There's this real sense of transference,

Of wisdom,

Of experience of those that have gone before us that can benefit through the generations in such a potent way that,

Again,

Our old people these days are just shunted off to an old age home and we visit them once a month.

You know,

We don't have that practice of sitting in circle and listening to our elders and then sharing their stories in a way that's super potent with the lessons.

We don't share stories of mythology anymore,

Which are so layered in their complexity and in their wisdom that everybody who listens to the same story comes away with some sort of different insight based on what's relevant to them in that moment.

You know,

We're losing cultures around the world all the time because we don't have the preservation of the lineage through the generations.

There's just all of these facets of healthy functioning communities with all the ages included.

And this practice of sitting in circle,

Telling our stories in intentional ways,

Sharing how we're feeling has just been lost.

We now are way too superficial.

We interrupt too much.

We tell our own points of view.

We give our own perspectives.

We make a joke.

We try and rescue someone.

We've forgotten how to really deeply reside in our own presence,

In our own state of being,

And be present to another person's story in a purely witness state.

You know,

And this is something that I really saw missing a lot in the banking industry as well is where is our capacity for deep listening,

To really deeply listen to the challenges of one another?

We can't listen because we're still so traumatized ourselves that when somebody else is triggered or traumatized and they bring that to the table,

We don't know what to do because all of our life wires are going crazy.

That building of capacity,

That building of presence to be available to be with whatever's arising in the present moment has sadly been lost.

And this is really rooted back,

I feel,

To the forgetting of how to sit in healthy community with that ladder of age and that sharing of story process.

So unbelievably potent.

You know,

And it's in that that we then start to be able to bring in that understanding of challenge and ordeal.

And that this is an absolutely necessary part of every transition.

Let's not be averted from it.

Let's not condemn it for being bad.

Let's not judge it.

Let's not be afraid of it.

Let's recognize that it's going to be challenging.

There's going to be difficult feelings that will come up.

And that's OK.

That's OK.

We are here together and alone.

You're going to do it.

But we are all here together.

Let's create a degree of compression and challenge for you,

Individual,

To go through your transition.

While all of us bear witness to that in whichever way,

Shape or form is appropriate for that culture.

And you've got to trust and know that when you return from your challenging experiences,

You will be received into the community in a way that is going to support you on your integration.

Of letting go of the things that no longer serve you,

Giving you the possibility of being able to vision into a new future for yourself individually and collectively within your family and community.

And then we can honor you and really honor you for the individual that you are.

Bring out your unique gifts and talents and reflect back to you what a remarkable individual you are.

You know,

Most of our youth today don't have that degree of support from community.

Most of our youth today just get told how shit they are all the time and how,

You know,

How bad they are and how much they're doing wrong.

And the youth of today and all those sorts of things get vilified.

It's like it's so tragic because these individuals going through the most important,

Critical stage of their transition within their lives are not being celebrated for the unique,

Extraordinary,

Beautiful facets of creation that they are.

You know,

The indigenous people call this process the spirit process.

It is through intentional rites of passage that we get to draw the spirit out of the individual and hold a mirror to them so that they can see themselves in our words and reflection of who they are.

So that they can connect to these extraordinary talents that they have and not be just told and beaten down and that they're terrible and that they're the youth of today.

And then they don't seek,

Like help-seeking behavior in today's youth is at a disastrous low.

Our youth turn to the Internet.

They don't turn to trusted elders or aunties or uncles or parents,

You know,

So we don't have culturally the structure.

We don't have community.

We don't have the community structure.

And we don't have the capacity within our modern-day individuals because you and I,

Maybe you did.

Sorry,

I won't speak on behalf of you,

But I certainly wasn't initiated through my rite of passage in this way.

You know,

And as a result of that,

I then initiated into my adulthood and it was probably way more discombobulated than it maybe needed to be.

Now there's a much greater degree of calm.

My capacity to be with people in their transition states is way greater because I have gone through my own transition too.

You know,

So there are many jewels that we can pull from the process and that we can implement into our lives in really straightforward and simple ways that can support the rebuilding of this and the connection to this ancient lineage that's in the zeitgeist and the frequency around us all the time.

Well,

Beautiful.

It makes me wonder now about this notion of individuality and collectiveness.

I know some people seem more geared to get more support and benefit from community and some people like maybe to work more one-on-one or internally.

And then,

Of course,

I feel we need some degree of both.

But the one thing that I've been exploring too recently is community as well.

And so could you talk a little bit more about the kind of dichotomy and dynamic I mentioned as well as community and how you see that going?

I know you've touched already quite a bit on it and then how that might vary significantly from culture to culture as well as commonalities and universalities,

Easy for me to say,

That runs throughout.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

I mean,

One of the examples we use,

You know,

I work very closely with a gentleman called Dr.

Arne Rubenstein.

I'm here in the Barentshire and he's a globally recognized expert on rites of passage and has coined a lot of the different levels of process through his research and through the work that he's done.

And we run these trainings here where we teach people around what is this process of a rite of passage?

What are the key components?

And at the same time,

We bring in the experiential journey for them over the three days on how to build community with these different facets of the process.

And I have to say,

It's extraordinary what happens.

And we have people from 18 years up to 70,

70 plus sometimes,

In the community that we build,

You know,

Of about 36 people over the course of the three days.

And,

You know,

That age range brings with it the most extraordinary,

Beautiful level of diversity and wisdom and reverence and respect that in our day to day life is not necessarily available because we're too involved with our own selves and our own story.

So there's an experiential process that we go through,

Utilizing things like sitting in circle and telling our stories,

Connecting in these very unique ways.

And a number of different processes that we run around that in order to help people remember how to do this well.

And to be honest,

It's a remembrance.

This is deep within our DNA.

You know,

Sitting around a fire and telling stories is something that we have done for hundreds and hundreds of years as humans,

As in our level of consciousness.

It's something that we are deeply familiar with.

But it's fallen away in our modern day times as we've got our little gadgets in front of our faces,

Which are our modern day fires,

You know,

Looking down at this blue light screen.

You know,

And Ana always uses the example of these festivals.

So he was doing some keynotes across a number of different festivals.

One was a family festival.

One was a dance festival.

And one was,

I can't even remember what the third was.

But more specifically,

What he would point towards is that at that family festival where there was tiny little babies and toddlers all the way up to grandparents,

Like the bathrooms were well kept,

The toilets were well kept,

There was minimal litter.

You know,

There was just a different frequency to the whole festival that had a level of respect almost built into it without needing to ask for it.

Although,

Of course,

People,

You know,

There is that level of request around,

You know,

Let's respect our space.

That request was put into the dance festival as well.

And it was just a completely,

The demographic was like 18 to 30 or something with a few outliers.

And it was just a completely different kettle of fish.

You know,

The rubbish and the litter and the disrespect and the revolting toilets,

Just,

You know,

Completely different frequency,

Completely different vibe.

And yes,

Context perhaps is different as well.

Dance festival versus,

You know,

Music festival for families.

Context is different.

But you can see what happens when you get one group,

One age group together that aren't necessarily in that ladder of healthy functioning community across those different age groups.

You know,

So there is this call,

You know,

And I think what we're seeing as well with our adolescents,

You know,

We run a lot of camps for parents and children transitioning into young adulthood.

So we always bring in the parent.

And,

You know,

We don't do children on their own.

And even when we do the work in schools,

We do schools that involves the whole community.

We can't just do work with the kids because if they're going to come out of their paradigm shifting right of passage experience where they potentially did a solo overnight with them for the first time on their own in the bush with bugs and insects and creepy crawlies and all sorts of things.

And they come back off that peak experience and they land up back in the classroom or back in their home.

And the parents or the teachers don't know how to support the integration of that peak experience back into this 3D world that we're living in.

That potential to have that whole experience be minimized,

Be washed away,

Be discombobulated is drastically heightened.

And I know that you feel very strongly about integration given the name of your podcast.

But,

You know,

Integration is such an incredibly important part of the process.

The peak experiences do one thing.

And then it's like,

Right,

The rubber really hits the road on how do we integrate these peak experiences?

What do we do around that?

And so to have the whole community of staff,

Teachers,

Students and parents enrolled into the school program with everybody understanding what's going on so that the whole functioning of that process of transition can really work at a cultural level is only available if everybody's there.

Much the same as with the camps.

If we did camps for just the children,

Same thing,

They'd land up back at home.

With the parents forgetting that with their child transitioning into young adulthood,

There is a requirement,

Actually a necessity for the parent to be transitioning with them to understand what this next layer of experience that their child is going through entails and what's involved with that.

So that they can also let go of the things that no longer serve them and show up to meet their child or their young adults,

The person that's transitioning,

In a much healthier way.

I mean,

We've seen so many dads,

For example,

That their little girl gets to 11,

12,

13,

And there's dad going,

Oh,

You'll always be my little girl.

And little girl's like,

I'm not your little girl anymore.

Like,

I'm a teenager,

You know.

And next thing we see,

Relationship breakdown between father and daughter.

We see son going off with his friends,

Which is actually a developmentally appropriate thing for him to do at the age of 14.

But mom overreaching and overstepping and why is my son drifting away from me?

Mom's not prepared for that transition.

Mom's not ready to let go of her boy.

She doesn't have the tools.

She hasn't been told that it's a necessary transition that she needs to go through,

Too.

To let her boy go on his rite of passage and come back to her and meet her in a healthy way as a young adult.

So it's absolutely essential for all of us to recognize that it doesn't just the individual going through a transition is one thing,

But it involves the whole community.

It involves the family.

And when it's done well,

It doesn't have the potential to just support that individual transitioning.

It actually has the opportunity to uplift the whole community in that process.

Where the whole community feels that sense of belonging.

Feels that sense of interconnectedness.

You know,

Feels that sense of oneness,

Consciousness within their tribe.

And,

You know,

You've quite rightly touched upon the fact that some people thrive in big groups and other people thrive in small groups.

And this is where the beauty of it is,

Is that there's so many layers to how it can be done when it's done well with the awareness of inclusivity.

That those that thrive sharing their own stories in small groups can absolutely do that.

And at the same time,

When they're sitting in a larger circle,

They get the opportunity to listen reflectively to everybody else's stories and learn more about themselves in response to or in relation to the things that other people are going on,

That are going on for other people.

And with that comes the possibility of each individual realizing,

Hey,

I'm actually not that alone in what I'm going through.

There's other people that are going through really big things that actually I resonate deeply with and I don't feel quite so isolated.

There's this shared common sense of humanity that comes through the building of community in this way and the intentional sitting in circles together.

This is so important.

I'm glad we touched mostly on this kind of more global level.

And now maybe we'll trickle down to the kind of more relational ways most of us are used to,

You know,

On spiritual journeys.

I was the old Ram Dass saying,

You know,

I think you have any kind of spiritual degree of progress and attainment or whatever,

Just go spend some time with your family.

And you mentioned mother and father dynamics there,

Which I feel are really important.

Maybe this is a little bit too personal,

But my folks,

Like everyone else,

They were doing the best they can.

If they could do better,

They would,

Right?

Then for people in abusive situations,

Though,

You know,

Abuse is never okay.

That's time to get out no matter what you're doing and not defending or allowing that as well.

So,

But with the family dynamics,

You know,

If these tools have been available to some of our loved ones and their families,

I think it would have a better impact on the traditional quote unquote family dynamic.

You know,

It seems like it's a real challenging time for whatever reasons,

Be it there's an incentive to break apart families or everyone's going through their own stress to begin with.

That there's not much resources left,

The education on how to be in a family,

The role models and examples are kind of lacking.

And so we've got that whole dynamic,

Which is really complex as well.

And then we have the men and women thing.

So I want to give you a chance here to speak a little bit about your wheelhouse working with women too,

But not too much,

Maybe.

But no,

I definitely want you to get into that a little bit before we go on to maybe even bigger things besides just our relationships,

Which are a huge thing.

And even the historical Buddha said that,

You know,

Spiritual friendship is the entirety of the path.

I'm going to go on to maybe after we address this,

Maybe some just more philosophical or idealistical things and maybe how they might be more grounded into reality.

You know,

The family dynamic is such an interesting one because,

You know,

I think Ram Dass really hit the nail on the head and I've seen it happen time and time again with me is that,

You know,

There's this intimacy of the nuclear family,

The epigenetics and the genetics all mixed together.

And all of the generational pass down that's happened,

You know,

The way in which I was parented is the way in which I've seen myself parent at times.

You know,

The way in which my parents were parented was how they were parented.

And,

Yes,

They've made a few amendments along the way,

But broadly speaking,

The level of consciousness that's been available to us collectively has been constantly evolving.

We're constantly becoming more of what we are meant to be.

And where we're at right now,

The level of consciousness that's emerging is awesome.

It's heightened,

It's acute,

It's aware.

When our parents were raising us,

You know,

We were told to be seen and not heard.

You know,

There was very much a different paradigm and that was just because of the level of consciousness at the time.

So there is a great degree of compassion and forgiveness,

Perhaps,

That's required from all of us collectively for the ways in which the generations before us have done it because they didn't know any better.

And you've quite rightly spotted that.

You know,

What the implication of that now is,

Is this call to transition,

This call to initiation that we need to consciously turn towards as mature adults in the world today,

Which is in desperate need of mature adults to be leading the way forward in a way that is healthy and not rooted in our past,

Not rooted in the way in which it has been done to date,

Not rooted in the way in which we were raised,

But really to become utterly discontinuous from the past by healing all of the wounds that are still stuck in that water.

Go visit our families,

See where the nervous system is triggering.

Hunt down,

And you said this at the beginning,

Like hunt down those triggers ourselves because when we turn consciously towards the parts of us that are getting triggered and we recognize that all that trigger means is that there's something in us that needs deep healing.

There's probably a childlike part of us,

Some seven-year-old or nine-year-old or 13-year-old that had something happen at the time all those years ago that didn't have the tools,

The know-how,

The education,

The capacity,

The community,

The family to know how to digest that experience to its completion and integrate it back into the wholeness of who they were at that time,

Of who we were at that time.

Instead,

We got stuck,

Something contracted around that original wound.

Obviously,

There's a spectrum to trauma.

We've got the capital T traumas,

Which are just ghastly and beyond comprehension that human beings could treat one another in that way.

Then we've got the micro traumas,

The little t's,

But all of them nonetheless are leaving imprints in our nervous systems.

They're all leaving their little mark along their way.

As a result of that,

We have this fiery,

Unintegrated,

Dysregulated nervous system happening within us.

What do we do?

We don't take radical responsibility for it.

We just perpetuate it by passing and bypassing it and passing it straight through on to the next generations.

That's something that's happened for our parents and the parents before them and blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

All the way up the line.

What we've been called to now is to really get into this awareness that it's got to stop with us.

As the adults of today,

We've got to stop this generational pass down of trauma.

We've got to heal all of those parts that need to come into wholeness.

If we need to go through a process of emancipating ourselves from our parents,

Energetically or literally,

Because of the atrocities that they passed on to us if we fall into the capital T,

Then we need to go through a conscious process of cutting the cords with our parents and creating that sovereignty for ourselves so that we can find the community that we can be in,

Where we are going to be nourished and loved and respected and supported.

And we're going to be in a community of those awakening to truth,

Awakening to wisdom.

But we need to bring all those ropes in so that we can become utterly discontinuous from the past,

Not perpetuate this 3D consciousness of separateness and move rather into a 5D consciousness of oneness,

Where we are whole and complete as we are,

Regardless of the story that we have.

We've pulled that story into wholeness.

We are at peace.

Our nervous system is calm.

We are healed.

We are here now and we are choosing a different route forward for our collective human family.

So there's work to be done.

First line work is me with myself.

I need to take radical responsibility for myself.

I need to go about that process for me,

By me.

Then there's second line work.

You and me,

Josh,

We can do this together.

We can share this process.

We can bounce off one another.

We can support one another.

We can build community around ourselves together with this aligned vision of oneness consciousness.

And then there's the third line work,

Which is how do we then take that back out into the world and scale that and be able to be a deepening within ourself and with our communities of the frequency that we want to hold of consciousness and love and awakening,

Peace on earth,

Presence,

Harmony,

Balance,

All of those virtues that we also deeply yearn for.

How do we embody those individually and collectively within our communities awakening to truth?

And then how do we utilize that capacity that we have together to hold that frequency for oneness consciousness and emanate that back out into the world so that those that do not have access to that community have the opportunity,

For example,

To be able to access a podcast such as this and listen to these words and remember themselves through it,

Remember themselves as oneness consciousness and recognize ways in which they can take steps towards that first line of work.

Yes,

I will just reiterate the importance of self-responsibility,

Absolutely,

Because no one else is responsible for what we think,

Say and do.

Now,

Yeah,

There might be.

It's not quite as simple as that,

But I can't make other people's choices for them.

I can't live their lives for them.

No one can do the same for me.

So that I want to really echo that.

I wonder my capacity is not there to trace back my family lineage and heritage to where it actually might have been healthy at some far distant place in the past.

But right now,

That's beyond me.

And I will say,

Yes,

I totally agree with cutting off if there is severe trauma with one's family.

Absolutely.

Like,

Again,

Abuse is never okay.

At the same time,

There's also potentially a possibility for reconnecting way down the road when one is healed and then if the parents will come around again,

Too.

So I don't want to completely advocate cutting oneself off from one's blood relatives.

And at the same time,

You know,

That's not all we are either,

Too.

So I think there could be middle ground here as well.

Now,

I want to give you a chance to talk about this.

I know gender is a really hot topic now.

I think the best term I've heard for it is gender confusion.

I mean,

To be respectful and kind of see all what's going on with so many things.

But in the more traditional sense of gender here,

You know,

Men and women,

We'll just use that.

I'm kind of old school.

I mean,

Addressing that.

Now,

I said,

Give you a little bit of space here to talk about how you work with gals.

And then I want to talk about the catalysts for awaking and change that I've mentioned with you before the show.

You know,

Just these basic questions of what really needs changing and then is it possible and how do we do it as far as prioritizing?

Like,

What do you see internally,

Externally,

Even in these times are timeless?

You know,

It applies to all times.

So,

Yeah,

Look,

You know,

We are in this really interesting phase of gender inquiry where,

You know,

The youth of today are certainly a lot more exploring these nuances in ways that,

You know,

Generations before them have not.

So there's been an enormous amount of work that's being done and it continues to be done on really trying to understand what that means on a literal level,

A man and woman level.

You know,

For the work that I do,

I specifically talk about masculine and feminine traits being a spectrum,

That there are traits that are typically masculine by their very nature or by their very archetype.

And there are traits that are typically feminine by their very nature or their very archetype.

Now,

All of us have that full spectrum living within us.

We all have a predisposition to a certain point on the spectrum where some men might be very attracted to certain traits that are highly feminine and some women might be attracted to traits that are highly masculine in nature.

I certainly know through my culture,

Through my conditioning and through working in a hypermasculine environment,

I had a lot of traits in me during my banking years that were hypermasculine by nature.

Now,

That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong in any way,

Shape or form.

The challenge we have is when those traits are not necessarily balanced or integrated with the alignment with who the individual is.

So for me,

I was quite disconnected.

I used to ask myself this question all the time,

Like you're a female leader in banking.

But what does that actually mean?

What does the diversity of gender bring to the table that is so unique and so important for the progression of the conversation?

Why is it important that a woman is at the table or that a man is at the table or anybody in between?

What is the value of that?

And I couldn't actually answer the question for myself.

I couldn't put my finger on what value I brought to the table as a woman.

I was like,

Well,

I mean,

You know,

I've got to communicate well.

I've got compassion.

I'm a good listener.

I'm empathetic.

I'm caring.

You know,

Those sorts of things,

Which are all wonderful traits.

But typically speaking,

All the light feminine traits that are all very appealing.

There is this whole shadow side to the feminine,

Much like there's the whole shadow side to the masculine.

That's the unhealthy aspect of these parts of all of us.

And without us being able to become clear and emotionally intelligent about these different parts of ourselves,

The shadow just lurks in the shadow and comes out to bite us when we least want it to.

You know,

So being able to kind of see these traits as a spectrum,

Recognizing that they live in all of us,

We can start to understand how these are made manifest in our day-to-day lives and how the shadow aspects are catching us up.

You know,

So if we look at this hyper-masculine culture that we've been living in,

We've got a situation where we've got generations upon generations of men who have not been allowed to feel.

They were raised by men who said,

Oh,

Fuck up,

Boy.

Boys don't cry.

Come on,

Don't be a pussy.

Just really like that deeply sensitized feminine side of men has not been allowed or celebrated or included in the generations that have gone before us.

Now it's much more available.

Now there is,

I mean,

I've got a nine-year-old son and I was talking to him the other day about my dad not being able to cry.

And my nine-year-old son was like,

What do you mean,

Mom?

Everybody cries.

So I can see that it's shifting for him.

But,

You know,

We've still got all of this trauma as a result of men not being given permission to feel.

Their difficult feelings and not being given permission to express those in the ways in which girls were or women are.

And what we see happen with women is the shadow side of the feminine coming out is that women were taught to be pretty pleasing and polite as little girls.

And we were told that Prince Charming is coming on a horse.

Don't you worry.

You'll be saved.

The men will save the day.

Don't you worry.

You don't have to do a thing.

You just need to be pretty and lie in the coffin and the man will kiss you and you'll be fine.

You'll be looked after.

So there's been this disempowering of girls and women all the way through.

And now we have this emergence of women coming through in an empowered way.

But the shadow side of that is that it's coming through with force and it's coming through with,

You know,

Anger.

And it's coming through with all this undigested rage and all of that's coming out in unhealthy ways.

And we can go into all sorts of different aspects of these shadow parts of us that are all playing out in the mainstream and perpetuating the cycles of trauma that we have lived through through generations and not necessarily healing the problem.

We're not solving things because we're perpetuating it with this unwieldy and rather,

You know,

Unhealthy way in which our cult is allowing it through.

Toxic masculinity and toxic femininity.

So how is it that we can create structures and spaces for people to be able to go into the challenging experiences of looking into their own shadow and seeing what's there and being able to utilize that opening,

That intentional turning towards the trigger,

The intentional looking for the wisdom in that.

And being able to build a safe space for the woman to express rage,

To allow that experience to come through their body,

That emotion,

That energy in motion that is trapped in the shadow to find its way to expression in order for it to be dissipated out into the world and for the body to release and relax.

And for that thing to come back into an integrated place within themselves of digestion of that which has been thwarted or repressed or suppressed within them.

And the same thing for men.

How do we create the cultural constructs for men to be able to find places where they can learn how to be with difficult emotions like sadness and grief and tears?

How do we create that space for men to be able to be with the tenderness of all of that and not feel judged or criticized or vilified or being told that they're not a man if they cry?

It's like this real shift that we're going to do or that we need to do for both men and women alike is coming through the fall.

And I think in all of this confusion,

The spectrum of gender is now being traversed by many people because people don't really know where they are.

They're like,

But I feel this and I don't know how to feel that.

And I'm confused by this and this is emerging and this experience I've had.

It's back and forth and back and forth.

And in that there's a like,

I don't really identify with anything.

So I don't know what I am.

I don't know who I am.

Who am I?

Who am I?

Which is the most fundamental inquiry every single one of us needs to sit with and consider is who am I?

And all of the facets that are involved with that contemplation.

So in a way,

It's a great exploration where the challenge comes in is when separateness is created within this process.

And we're creating more separateness by being an us and a them or they and a there and a he and a she.

It's like more distinction,

More labeling.

And again,

I've got deep levels of compassion for people who are on gender inquiries.

My very best friend is in a very deep gender inquiry and she's 58 years old.

Suddenly it's coming to the fore to her,

Which is an incredibly challenging process for her.

And at the same time,

There's a big relief going like,

Oh,

Wow,

I've always felt rather androgynous my whole life.

And I'm in a woman's body.

So I've kind of been told to be like a woman.

But there's lots of parts of being a woman that I don't resonate with.

And I'm being given permission to not have to be a woman.

I can just be a they.

And for her,

It's a relief.

So I celebrate that.

But it's how we're doing this rite of passage.

How are we collectively navigating our way through this transition of gender confusion,

As you say,

Or gender inquiry,

Into a place where we can celebrate differences and not try and create sameness out of everything,

Not create separateness and division through this inquiry,

Through this confusion,

But to rather allow it to go through its full emergence,

Recognizing that there is a challenge in this rite of passage that we are collectively in,

But we can do it well if we bring a degree of consciousness and awareness to the process in a way that is going to support the inclusion and not the demand for sameness for everybody that's going through the confusion and the inquiry.

Really good points here.

I think one of the biggest ones is this division because I see it's almost like a lot of these programs and things people are being forced on people in the corporate and governmental media is division.

And so when people are divided,

Then they're easier to control.

Maybe it's a little bit overly simplistic.

I know as far as a man,

This is when we go through this process,

I think words are important here.

I like to use the word weep.

So weeping to me is more,

I don't know,

It has a more useful term than crying.

And it's okay whatever word we use,

But that's one that really resonates with me.

And for me,

My own process,

Just to share here,

This was done in formal meditation practice years and years ago when I first started this.

And it was done alone,

So it was socially acceptable,

Right?

Because I wasn't doing this in front of other people.

And at the same time,

I was really fortunate before I left the States to come over here that I led a meditation group,

A men's group.

It was mainly men.

Usually I get mostly women that show up to these.

And it was really,

Really refreshing to be able to facilitate that and then sit in on a men's group who I was really impressed the amount of openness and sharing that was done in that group.

I was really grateful and fortunate to be a part of that.

So I think it's a balance between this deep inner work solo and then also in community and men's group.

And we had a couple females there.

I don't know what the right terminology to use these days are.

It wasn't like it was an all-exclusive,

Like you're saying,

Homogenized blob of sameness.

Okay,

So now that we've touched on that,

What about things that go beyond maybe our human experience or that include it as well?

My guess would be,

If I had to guess,

That some of the most important things you see in existence right now,

Let's just say,

Are some of the things you address.

But what else would we like to see change in,

Or would you like to see change in,

In the world internally,

I don't know,

Beyond?

What is kind of the greatest thing pressing our times and then beyond that as well?

Maybe talk about what it takes to make meaningful changes in the world and what that's about and maybe even awakening to the types of things that you'll be talking about.

Sure.

I mean,

It's such a good question because,

You know,

For where I see things now,

All we've been talking about is like,

You know,

This personal experience that each of us are having,

Which is the only point of reference we really have while we are rooted in this 3D consciousness,

Is the sense of me,

Paula,

In the world,

Josh is in the world having his experience,

Paula is in the world having her experience,

You know,

And ultimately my resonance and understanding of it is that like each and every one of us are just a fractal of God,

God experiencing,

You know,

God and,

You know,

I don't mean to trigger anybody with that word.

I don't necessarily mean it in the Christian sense.

We can call it creator or oneness consciousness or source or spirit or whatever it is.

But it's like each of us are this unique facet of spirit that are having a subjective experience in these human bodies that is spirit experiencing itself in all of its different ways.

You know,

Through this process we have in this 3D form where there is subject and object,

Where there's matter and I see you over there and I'm over here.

There's this sense of separateness and on purpose we have seen the institutions and the powers that be create more division through narratives,

Through propaganda,

Through,

You know,

All sorts of different channels.

And so this experience that we've had of the creating of more separateness for me is and needs to come to an end.

We are in an incredibly significant transition collectively,

Whether everybody's aware of it or not,

Of this transition from 3D consciousness,

Which is you and I here,

This matter of separateness,

Through 4D consciousness where we are much more telepathic and permeable to our thoughts and feelings and serendipities arising in our lives.

And we're starting to recognize the interconnectivity of everything in the world.

In our transition to ultimately 5D consciousness,

Which is unity consciousness,

This remembrance of ourselves as source,

This remembrance of ourselves as spirit,

Spirit living in each and every one of us.

You know,

We are living in a spiritually starved world.

We are disconnected from spirit.

We have forgotten ourselves.

We've just got too identified with this meat suit and this 3D life that we have,

We've forgotten who we are and who we are ultimately,

Which I started with is a fractal of non-dual awareness,

A fractal of primordial consciousness.

Having now in the zoomed out version,

A 3D experience of Paula,

Which in turn is now being called to move back to remember myself,

Paula,

As a individual fractal,

As a connected fractal of source consciousness where spirit and I are one.

You know,

Whatever people believe spirit to be,

Whichever story they've got around spirit,

So be it.

Ultimately,

That connection to spirit is a experiential process.

We can argue about doctrinal religion or ways to get there or whatever for hours and days and weeks and months and years and lifetimes even.

And really what we want to move is past all of that to just remember ourselves,

As our interconnected ones with spirit.

You know,

So that's really where I feel the big existential crisis slash now opportunity is,

Is how rapidly can we accelerate our remembrance of ourselves as spirit and that spirit living in us.

And therefore that spirit,

If it's living in me,

It's living in you too,

Josh.

And therefore,

Where is the actual separateness?

Besides the fact that you've got a head that's different to my head,

We've got the same essence,

You know,

So that remembrance.

And then there's compassion and there's love and there's joy and there's remembrance of who we really are.

You know,

So that feels very,

Very live and important at this time.

Beautiful,

Paula.

Do you want to share what you would like to leave people with?

Oh,

Beautiful.

Thank you.

What I'd like to leave you with is that if you are feeling a sense of agitation in your life,

Turn towards it and look for the wisdom that's available in that.

It's calling you to your next layer.

It's calling you to your next transition.

And there's an opportunity in that.

So lean in.