51. True Love: Practicing Giving Over Receiving

In this episode of Spiritually Hungry, Monica and Michael explore the definition of ‘true’ love – the unconditional love we have for others that isn’t based on our ego’s selfish desires but, rather, our desire for them to have goodness and blessings in their lives. Tune in as they share practical tools for creating a solid foundation and actively growing our relationships.

Transcript

When you love somebody else,

It means that you want the best for them,

Regardless of how it affects you,

Regardless if you receive anything in return.

So the way to know whether you love somebody is whether you truly desire always for them to have goodness.

It's who the person is and how they show up in the darkest of times.

And that's really how you know you're compatible.

And people don't actually go into relationships thinking that way.

You're not thinking about the bad times or the difficulties or the challenges that will naturally occur in life.

And when you go through those experiences with somebody and they show up,

Really show up for you,

And you show up either as your best self or your worst self,

That is really if you're truly compatible.

And that also happens to be what true unconditional love is.

If you really love somebody,

You'll take the time and you'll do the effort to be there in the way that they need to do.

Welcome to the Spiritually Hungry Podcast,

Episode 51.

Thank you for joining us.

It's going to be a fun episode on love.

We have called all the questions on,

Well,

Not all,

But many that you have sent us on love and relationships and all things that come with it.

And so it should make for a fun episode.

Which reminds me,

Although this usually is the message we give at the end,

Please keep sending in your questions.

Does that mean you won't say it again at the end?

I might.

But that's what we decided for this episode to take,

Well,

We'll see how many we get to,

But a list of questions that you've sent in over these months.

And hopefully we'll get to as many of them as possible.

So let's jump right into it.

How do you define love?

How do I define love?

That's a very good question.

Well,

In the ultimate state,

And this isn't just romantic love,

Love is when you desire for somebody else to have goodness and blessings in their life.

When you really love,

Right?

We're talking about self-love,

But when you love somebody else,

It means that you want the best for them,

Regardless of how it affects you,

Regardless if you receive anything in return.

That's why there's an ancient phrase,

Which is that true love is,

It's called that she'inat luyabada'va,

Which means that it's not dependent on anything.

Unfortunately,

Most of what we in modern times think of as love is what we receive from,

Is at least involved in what we reciprocally receive in return from somebody else.

So the way to know whether you love somebody is whether you truly desire always for them to have goodness.

Which is hard to do when you're in a relationship because sometimes you wish not so great things.

And also you have your own,

Often if you're in a relationship,

You do have your own desires and needs that need to be met certainly in a romantic relationship.

But I do think it's important at least to begin with clarity and what true love means.

True love is when you see somebody,

You are filled with so much desire for them to have goodness.

I think if we were to break it down in simple terms,

There's ego based love versus unconditional love.

So ego based love is rooted in anything where we feel our needs are met.

A person makes us feel good or happy or beautiful or secure.

It's a lot of receiving.

And not a lot of giving in terms of percentages or balance.

Conditional love quite simply is loving somebody because they exist.

Just their existence alone is enough.

And from that place,

Like you said,

Then wanting goodness for them.

Wanting their happiness.

That becomes a priority.

And I think that for that shift to occur,

Because I think many relationships,

Especially if you're not rooted in a spiritual life or that's not like a pursuit or priority,

Let's say,

Ego based love,

Of course,

Is the first thing because we tend to go after things from the space of our five senses.

That person looks good,

Tastes good,

Makes me feel good.

It's very much.

.

.

I'm just being honest.

Well,

There are pheromones,

Right?

Smell.

All of our senses either make us appealing and also attracted to other people or not.

And while that might be the beginning of romance,

It certainly cannot only be that.

And that is just,

Like I said,

The beginning of love.

For a deeper love to emerge,

There needs to be things like kindness and empathy and compassion.

Appreciation.

Appreciation.

Also a true foundation that's the same in terms of what's important in life.

I think this is a very important point.

I love when you say that to me.

Yes.

I think it's only natural for most people.

And I really wonder as you were talking,

How many people even conceive of the fact that love is not just about taking?

Because I think most people,

Certainly if they are not living a spiritual life,

But often even if they are in relationships and in friendships,

Of course,

Of course,

The place they go to is,

What am I getting out of this?

What will I get out of this?

How do I feel?

How does this person make me feel?

How do they make me happy?

Which by the way is a necessary part of any relationship.

It's a natural part.

But also necessary.

Also necessary.

But I think what you're saying,

What you're bringing to the point,

Which is so important that for a relationship to be a true relationship,

For a relationship to be one that can grow,

There has to be a shift that occurs at some point in the relationship where hopefully both.

And if we're talking to ourselves,

We ask ourselves the question,

How much is my given a priority in this relationship?

Right.

The emphasis has to change for sure.

And that has to be a conscious choice.

And by the way,

A conscious choice is made again and again and again.

And this is something,

Again,

Fundamental to spirituality to understand that we have two natures within us.

One that is truly our nature,

Call it our soul,

That really desires somebody else's goodness outside of ourselves.

But there is what we call the body consciousness or the ego,

Which is just for me.

Just for me.

And that is not something that could be switched on and off.

That is a constant lifelong struggle,

Battle,

However you want to phrase it,

So that unless you are in any relationship that is important to you,

Whether it's a romantic one,

Whether it's a friendship,

It is important to always be asking yourself the question,

How much is my giving nature involved in this relationship?

Because if it's not,

That relationship will not last.

That relationship will not last.

I think it's so interesting too,

Because when you think about what makes people compatible,

Right?

Again,

It's usually rooted in the five senses.

We like to hike.

We enjoy the same films.

We have the same sense of humor.

We love travel.

We love food,

Foodies,

Whatever it is,

Right?

And I think that,

Again,

That is important and that is fun,

But there needs to be something that we understand true compatibility to be.

It's who the person is and how they show up in the darkest of times.

And that's really how you know you're compatible.

And people don't actually go into relationships thinking that way.

They're not thinking about the bad times or the difficulties or the challenges that will naturally occur in life and how will that partner fare for you or how will you show up for them in that time.

And when you go through those experiences with somebody and they show up,

Really show up for you and you show up either as your best self or your worst self,

That is really if you're truly compatible.

And that also happens to be what true unconditional love is.

Interesting.

So again,

Great point,

Monica.

And I do want to make sure we spend enough time focusing on that because even though it's part of the parlance of marriage,

Right,

In sickness and in health,

But the reality is that most people probably even when they're saying those words,

But certainly as they're thinking about their relationship,

That's not uppermost in their thought,

Which is that what makes or breaks a relationship at some point is how willing,

How desiring we are to be there for somebody when we don't want to be there,

When it's really uncomfortable,

When it's really dark.

But even,

Michael,

Even if we don't desire,

It's more like how willing are we to be there for them in the ways that they need us to be.

And that's really key.

I think very often,

And this goes back to what the difference between ego-based love and unconditional love is,

Often we show up for the people that we really love,

Right,

Whether it's a child or a parent or a spouse,

And we show up in the way that we think they.

.

.

For what they need based on what we think they need,

Right?

We're not often seeing them,

Hearing them,

Asking the question,

How does this person really need me to be?

What is it that they are trying to show me?

What am I hearing?

What am I seeing in them that they need me to show up for,

Right?

And for that to happen,

Again,

That switch between ego,

Five senses,

What am I receiving,

To what am I giving,

What am I offering,

And that's why a lot of relationships start to crumble when challenges occur,

Because this thing that we're talking about actually doesn't occur.

I might be saying this throughout the podcast,

But that's another very important point that you touched upon.

Because it's not just when it's clear that your friend,

Partner,

Or husband,

Wife needs you,

Right?

That's.

.

.

I don't know if I want to call it the bare minimum,

Even though for many people it becomes a struggle to consistently be there when they're calling out for help,

When they really need you.

What you just said,

Which is really important,

And this is I think another key to a real friendship,

Even to a friendship,

Is when you hear and really know where and how they need you.

Even if you don't understand it,

By the way,

Right?

Sometimes the needs of the people we love are like,

Well,

That just doesn't make any sense to me.

They're in pain or whatever,

And you might have a brilliant solution to how to solve the problem.

And if they don't listen to that,

Then- Then I'm done with them.

I'm not going to speak to.

.

.

I'm going to take space.

We need a break or whatever it is.

Right.

And the additional part is really to be almost like a researcher or somebody who wants to discover- Curious.

Right,

Curious.

What are the ways that I need to or want to or should be there,

Even in ways that aren't directly verbalized,

But I feel that,

Oh,

He or she really needs me to be in this way.

Right?

Because I think we're saying there is no relationship really,

And there is no friendship really,

If you're not there when they say they need you.

Right?

Which unfortunately we've seen people just for whatever reason don't have the capacity or the desire to selfish,

To really want to consistently be there when they're called to it by their friend,

By their partner,

By their spouse.

But really it's much more than that.

It's really being curious to discover new ways that my friend or partner needs me.

And by the way,

This kind of curiosity creates a connection that actually paves neuropathways in your brain,

And that really creates a way that you are able to receive and share with one another that then becomes your go-to in those hard times.

It becomes actually your very essence and your very being,

And it becomes who you are as a couple.

And I remember the first time I experienced this in our marriage.

It wasn't in year one or two,

Three or four or five.

It was in year seven.

And I speak very openly.

When Josh was born,

It put a bright light on many,

Many aspects of who I thought I was,

Who I thought I was as a woman,

As just Monica,

As your wife,

As a mother.

And I remember until that point in our relationship,

I had a belief system that I was unaware of that I don't need to be that vulnerable to you.

I don't need to tell you everything,

And I certainly don't want to rely on you or depend on you because you might disappoint me.

That was a belief system I had created when I was younger because I was disappointed by many people.

When we had this experience and you showed up in your truest form and you really heard me and you really saw me and you offered me unconditional love,

Not trying to fix me,

Not trying to fix the situation,

Not trying to remedy my emotions,

To really just stood by my side.

And I think I buy yours,

Right?

We were experiencing this together.

That it shifted everything because I realized how stupid of me to withhold anything from this person who can really show up so completely,

Authentically and unconditionally.

Exactly.

And I think,

Again,

Just to raise a point of thought for our listeners,

Ask yourself this question.

When and in what ways are you there for your friend,

For your partner?

Not in ways that you think they need you and not helping in the way that you think is right,

But in a way that is actually different than maybe you think,

But what they need,

Where they are at.

And that is something that is difficult to do unless you are really actively,

And things are great,

But certainly when things are,

There are struggles,

Asking yourself that question.

How do they need me to be there for them?

Not just,

Am I there for them?

Am I going to give them my best advice or my best support?

No.

How and in what ways am I actively discovering how I can be there in the ways that they need and the ways that they want?

And this is great parenting advice too,

By the way,

To do that for your kids.

It teaches them,

First of all,

You're a safe place for them.

You're actually the place that they will go to speak because you're not enforcing anything.

You're not impressing upon them your beliefs.

You're actually hearing them.

You're seeing them.

You're recognizing what it is that they need.

And then you're having a conversation,

Giving information where then they can choose to take it or not.

Because after all,

Nobody has to accept anything we offer.

Many times,

I think throughout life with most of our relationships,

Unless we make this shift and this conscious shift,

It's not something that comes naturally because it comes from many places.

We love people.

We want to protect them.

We're older.

We have life experience.

We want to help them.

We think we know better.

We see them hurting themselves.

And I've shared this with you too.

I've been loved deeply by two men in my life,

You and my father.

And he did this for me when I was anorexic.

He never questioned the obvious destruction I was doing to my body.

He never belittled me.

He never made me feel shame.

Fully could not understand it,

But he was fully and completely there for me in ways that I had never experienced.

I just felt heard and seen.

And from that space,

I could actually heal as well.

So I can't,

I mean,

Really,

This point needs to be really emphasized because it's kind of everything.

It reminds me of an ancient story of a great spiritual leader in sage.

He would have hours when people would come into his room and they would come with their problems,

With their challenges,

And he would give them advice or a blessing or support.

And after a few hours of this,

His attendant walks in and he sees he's sweating.

And it wasn't a warm day and he had just basically been sitting in his chair all day for the number of hours.

So he asked his teacher,

This spiritual sage,

He said,

Why are you sweating?

And he said,

Because whenever somebody comes into me for advice,

Sits down in that chair in front of me,

I can listen as myself.

I have to take off all of my clothes,

Not physically,

And put on theirs.

I have to be,

And then listen to them from who they are and give them advice and direction for who they are.

He says,

And imagine dressing and undressing 50 times in four hours,

It'll get you sweating.

But that's really the point.

The point is,

You know,

There's a phrase in the Bible,

Which has many teachings from it,

But it says about Ba'ashe'r husham,

Which literally means where he is at.

And that has to be our view whenever we are in a place of helping,

Supporting,

Trying to be a friend,

Where are they at?

Not what do you think the right thing,

But really put yourself,

Really put yourself to the degree that you can and be curious about how you can be there in the way that the person,

Your friend,

Your spouse,

Or your child,

Like you said,

Needs you to be.

And why?

Because if you really love them,

You love them because they exist and you appreciate just being in their orbits.

You want to be able to give in any capacity that you can.

By the way,

And it takes more effort,

Right?

And the point is- And patience.

If you really love somebody,

You'll take the time and you'll do the effort to be there in the way that they need you to be.

So I never asked you this question because I never understood this line.

In the movie Love Story,

Right?

The famous line,

Love means never having to say you're sorry.

Yeah,

I never understood that.

I didn't either.

It kind of upsets me a little bit.

And maybe we're going to get some letters about this,

But I think it is important.

Yeah.

I've said many times,

I think we're in,

I know that we're in love and I say,

I'm sorry.

I know they're very,

Very relatively often,

But often enough for sure.

As a matter of fact,

I think that's maybe antithetical to a spiritual life because in a spiritual life,

The understanding is that there is always has to be growth.

Growth comes from mistakes.

So I think maybe the opposite is true that- Love means saying you're sorry.

Love means being open to say you're sorry.

And again,

And this actually is another important point.

We actually had slightly unrelated to this,

But yesterday and the day before where we were having these conversations with people and the idea of being open,

Right?

So one of the great gifts,

If you are- Being open to hearing somebody else's opinion.

Well,

Exactly.

You can call it criticism,

Feedback,

Whatever word you want to use.

But the reality is that one of the great blessings of being in a true relationship is that you have somebody who knows you and hopefully you make yourself known to them.

All of your faults,

All of the good and the bad.

It's funny,

Just the other day I was listening to an interview with somebody and he was saying that often when people go to a therapist,

The therapist does not meet,

And often actually just in general,

Whenever you meet people,

You never really meet them,

You meet their representative.

Meaning,

You meet the version of them that they want you to know.

Which is almost always the best version.

Even often when people go to a therapist,

They introduce not themselves,

But their representative,

The person that they want people to know.

And that is certainly true.

Well,

They want to seem more normal than they are perhaps.

Whatever.

But one of the ways to know whether you're in a real relationship is if you show yourself truly,

The good,

The bad,

And the ugly,

To your friend or spouse.

And that they receive it without judgment.

That's the other side of that.

Otherwise,

A therapist,

You're paying and they don't really care for you.

Well,

Hopefully they do care for you.

But they're not in an intimate relationship,

So maybe you're a little bit more free in showing who you are.

But one of the signs of a true relationship is that both you are able and desiring to show yourself completely to your partner,

And they don't judge you for that.

And they are able to give you true and honest feedback.

Because,

And again,

This goes back to our view,

The spiritual view on life,

Which is whoever I am today and whoever you are today,

You're amazing.

I'm hopefully amazing.

But from this point on,

I need to change,

I desire to change and to grow and to become an even better person.

And that will not happen just by me trying,

But it will happen by you helping me,

By you pointing things out.

Which again,

Just brings us back to the idea of being open.

And I shared this with a group of teachers yesterday,

That it is usually when we need to be open that we are the most closed and that we are open when we least need it.

Meaning the parts of us that really need to change,

The aspects of us that need improvement are the ones that we're often closed off to be even hearing any feedback about.

And hopefully in a real relationship,

And this is another question about any relationship we're in,

If you want to know if it's real,

How open are you?

Really open.

What's the fine real?

You mean unconditional or lasting?

Should be unconditional,

Hopefully lasting.

Yeah,

But in the extreme case,

If you're in a marriage and you and your spouse or your partner will say something,

Because you believe it's coming from a place of love and you're not open to hear it,

That's a big issue.

That's a big issue for you because marriage should be a project of both individually and hopefully collectively growing.

That can't happen unless there's a real openness desire to hear,

Especially things that we're blind to and change them and grow from them.

But a lot of relationships have a hard time getting to that place because they start from a place that's not really true and honest.

Most people,

Like you said,

They want to show the best sides of themselves.

Certainly when you're dating,

You're meeting the person's representative and not the person.

Exactly.

So to get to that place of vulnerability requires really being honest and know that this is the foundation of the relationship.

It's whatever you're putting at in the beginning of it.

And my view of it,

Of everything we've said until now and certainly this point as well,

Most of this is not easy to get to these places,

But to make a lasting relationship takes this work.

And all I'm saying is not that tomorrow,

Let's say you're married for five years or one year or 10 years,

Suddenly you'll suddenly both be completely open to each other.

But are you working towards that?

Knowing that unless we achieve that or at least elements of that,

Our relationship will not be one that is truly thriving and growing.

Which I'd like to share one of my favorite Daniel Kahneman quotes about marriage.

I shared,

I think it was last week or the week before,

That in the studies about people's happiness in life while they're dating,

When they get married and into their marriage,

It's a very sad graph.

So it's basically while they're,

If you ask people,

How happy are you in your life?

So in that question,

Of course,

Throughout while dating,

Marriage and five years of marriage,

Seven years of marriage,

It basically goes up usually during the first year of marriage and then begins- Marriage or dating?

No.

Marriage goes up a little bit,

Dating goes up a little bit,

Marriage goes up higher than it was pre-dating,

Then it begins a slight but steady decline into year five,

Six,

And seven in marriage so that by year seven,

People statistically say that they are less satisfied in life than they were before they started dating their spouse.

Well,

That's why John Gottman predicts also,

But he said most couples don't seek counsel until the seventh year.

And by that time,

It's almost too late because there's so much resentment and other things that have piled on over to the relationship that haven't been dealt with.

And people usually only seek counsel in the seventh year,

Which is the big mistake.

And that's why everything we're talking about,

We often,

People don't like the word working on their marriage,

But working in a very positive and productive way is necessary.

So- Well,

I always say this because people confuse work with pain.

So yes,

It's work,

It's effort.

It doesn't mean it has to be painful and powerful.

It's effort and focus,

Right?

Yeah.

Just like you would work toward any goal or any success.

Yeah,

But the most fulfilling.

So after,

So Dr.

Gottman often says when he's talking to people and he shows that graph,

There's a lot of laughter,

Uncomfortable laughter in the room.

After all,

He says,

People who decide to get married do so either because they expect it will make them happier or because they hope that making a tie permanent will maintain the present state of bliss.

In the useful term introduced by Daniel Gilbert and Timothy Wilson,

The decision to get married reflects for many people a massive error of effective forecasting.

On their wedding day,

The bride and the groom know that the rate of divorce is high and that the incidence of marital disappointment is even higher,

But they do not believe that these statistics apply to them,

Which I think is the perfect truth.

We never think any statistics apply to any of us about anything.

But I think what we're saying is that,

Certainly with Daniel Kahneman saying what the research has shown shows us that on a static basis,

Relationships get worse over time unless there is,

As we said,

This effort and focus that's put into it.

And spiritual element.

Yes.

So,

Yeah,

Go ahead.

Oh,

Yeah,

Of course.

I have a few questions for you.

I'm feeling a little bit guilty of them.

But what is the biggest mistake you've seen people make in an argument?

Well,

First of all,

I want to say that I think it's important that couples fight and I get worried when they don't.

It's very necessary to be passionate enough to talk about things,

To care enough to have conversations that are necessary.

There are going to be things that you disagree about.

And fight doesn't mean necessarily raising your voice.

Right.

So the biggest though mistake,

I think,

Is that people don't do that.

They hold their tongue.

They want to keep the,

I hear this all the time,

A blissful home or marital unity.

I don't know what any of that means.

If you can't have conversations about things that are important to you,

To the person that's supposed to be most important to you,

You're either going to swallow it.

It's not going to feel very good in your body.

Or you're going to go speak to other people instead of the one you need to speak with.

So.

And that resentment,

Exactly.

And that resentment builds up.

That is the number one mistake.

Which,

By the way,

I think,

Again,

Very important point.

I think every one of our listeners should ask the question,

If you're in a relationship,

If you're certainly,

If you're in a marriage,

Are there things that you speak about to your friends about your husband or wife that you don't speak to your husband or wife about?

Or that you feel like you couldn't speak to your husband or wife about?

That's a big red flag.

That's a big red flag.

Exactly.

The other thing is though,

There's other people who can't hold their tongues and they say every single thing that they are frustrated about or angry about.

Big mistake there too.

The biggest rule I would say is never go below the belt.

I mean,

People just need to agree on a style.

And it's not that one is better than another,

But they have to be the same.

So if you recall,

When we got married,

Our style was,

I was a lot of punchy and slappin'.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thanks for lying about me.

I was a yeller.

No,

No,

I was a punchy.

And you would shut down,

Which would infuriate me.

And but I think we came together and we decided on a style.

Right.

So now our style is more one where we sit down,

Especially if it's something that we think will be difficult for the other to receive.

And we'll say,

You know,

There's something that I want to share.

I really hope you can hear me.

And that's usually when we know it's kind of more serious than not.

And we actually take the time to listen.

I think that's a very important point,

Which is at the very least,

And this is good advice always,

Not to be reactive,

Which means again,

There are times when you actually literally have to have an argument in the moment,

But best,

Certainly if it's something important to literally wait and take the time and to have a serious conversation about whatever it is.

I was just smiling as you were talking,

Because I do remember every few years we have like a really,

I don't want to use the word nasty,

But a real,

You know,

A real fight.

And actually I'm entertained by those.

Hardly.

I can think of like two.

I know.

But they're not even that serious.

At the time they're slightly serious.

But I think it's when we're not both the best versions of ourselves,

But they are kind of 17,

But we do not recommend that as a consistent.

Interesting,

Michael.

I'm not going to unpack that.

And I think another mistake that couples make is that they use things against the other in an argument.

So something that might've been said in a place of vulnerability or,

You know,

Even a weakness and to hold it against one another,

There's nothing that destroys relationship more than that.

In Proverbs,

It says reckless words,

Pierce like a sword,

But the tongue of the wise brings healing.

So these past mistakes are far too often used against the other.

And really that just slowly chips away at the relationship to a place where it never really quite goes back to how it was like a glass that's broken,

Right?

It's shattered.

You can glue it back together,

But certainly it's never going to be the same.

And I would therefore caution all of us,

Certainly if you're in an important relationship and especially if you're,

Well,

If I was going to say,

If you're talking about a delicate matter,

But really always be very mindful of things that you know,

And really you should probably keep a catalog.

You know,

What are the things that my friend,

That my partner is very sensitive about?

And those are the ones that you speak about very,

Even if you have to very delicately and certainly never,

Which again,

Unfortunately way too often in relationships that are not in their best place,

People actively bring up,

Mention,

Throw at their,

I don't know if I want to say partner,

But it's not really a partner at that point,

The things that they know are the most hurtful,

The most sensitive.

I don't think you need a catalog.

I think if you care enough,

You become emotionally intelligent where you know things about the partner,

Like you would know about yourself.

You're that interested,

You're that curious and you're that connected to one another.

So I think it comes down to that.

I think far too often people are more concerned with their own feelings and how they felt slighted rather than coming at it from a place of repair and really certainly growth.

Or as we had a conversation with somebody the other day,

Right?

I sometimes try to give the benefit of the doubt that sometimes we're mindless or.

.

.

Versus malice.

Malice,

Yeah.

But the reality is it doesn't even matter because if you really care about your spouse,

Your partner.

.

.

You'll correct,

You'll auto-correct.

You'll both correct,

But also you'll be very mindful.

I think that's really what it's about.

It's about having certainly arguments,

But even conversations in a mindful way,

In a way that really is constructive because again,

Let's be realistic,

People have egos.

And often when you go into an argument especially,

But even in our daily lives,

We're thinking about ourselves and our feelings and often that makes it too easy to disregard things that we know can be hurtful.

Well,

I think because we don't feel heard,

We won't hear the other person,

Right?

And it can feel very isolating in a relationship when over time,

Time and time again,

You never feel you're heard.

The other person never says,

Sorry,

Let's say.

And so then you never offer that to them either.

And we've had this conversation not often,

But where you're actively saying something hurtful because you don't feel that you're being heard.

So sometimes.

.

.

To get their attention.

To get their attention,

You'll either do or say something that you know will get their attention in a negative way because you don't feel that you're being heard in a positive way.

Yeah.

Often people don't care if they're getting a reaction that's negative or positive as long as they get some kind of reaction,

Right?

And I think it's so important to,

As we talk about arguing,

To make sure,

Which you speak about often,

Which is a very,

Very important element I know that we bring into our post arguments to repair.

Maybe the most important thing,

Even if you follow everything we've said about the way to argue,

Make sure that there is often not in the moment,

Maybe it's an hour later,

Maybe it's a day later,

Where you're not in a reactive state,

Speak through what was hurtful about that conversation,

What was helpful and really repair.

Because unless you do that,

Even if you had a constructive argument,

If you don't repair after that,

There are cracks that are left.

Well,

You'll just keep bringing it into the next argument.

So there are 10 baseline rules for engagement,

For effective fighting.

The first is discuss lines that neither of you should ever cross,

Right?

Like we just said,

No hitting below the belt.

And again,

I think many couples might not even know what that list is for,

And unless,

And that's why I would strongly recommend this even on a date when you're both really happy with each other.

So what are the things that I have said or in the past 15 years or in general are for you hurtful?

But also I think if you tell people the parts of you that are still scarred from past,

Right?

If you allow them to know your vulnerabilities,

Like,

Hey,

When you say,

And I've used this example often about us,

Right?

Early in our marriage,

You'd say,

Oh,

When we'd be fighting,

You're like,

That's just crazy.

What I heard you saying was,

You're crazy.

Now why was that a trigger for me?

And you didn't know this at the time.

My biggest fear was schizophrenia because of my uncle,

Right?

Watching that happen to him when I was a kid.

Once,

By the way,

It took my own emotional intelligence.

Once I understood why those words triggered me,

Right?

Oh wait,

Why does this upset me so much?

Then I was able to articulate it to you and you were able to receive it because of where we were in our marriage,

Right?

So it takes actually quite a few steps to get there,

But it's completely doable.

So first you need to be aware of yourself and what your hurts are past,

Present,

And then be able to share it with the person.

And the person also needs to be able to do the same.

The second is agree on a fighting style that works for both of you,

As I said,

Whether you choose to vent or sit and discuss calmly,

The style has to accommodate both of your needs.

It's not one is better than the other.

It just has to be working for both.

Three,

Identify in advance what an acceptable outcome looks like.

I think that's really important.

Explain that.

Explain that.

So for instance,

If you sit down and you know maybe this is a point that you just don't see eye to eye on,

So you'd say,

Maybe we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

It's just really important for me to be able to express it to you and know that you're actually considering what I'm saying.

That for me would be enough,

Right?

Let's say about a specific thing.

If you feel that I or the person really hears.

Right.

But my point is it's not that after an argument,

Everything has to be packed up so neatly and nicely and you agree.

That might not happen.

It's still important though to be able to create a space where you can speak from your heart and feel heard because then you feel valued.

And maybe eventually after you have five,

10,

15 conversations like that over the years,

The person eventually might see it differently or you might see things differently.

So just I think it's important to have because often the expectation is I want you to apologize after the conversation or- I want you to change behavior.

Or I expect you to,

Right?

Or I expect you to agree with me.

So it's really important that both are very clear and maybe they're not aware of this either.

That's why it's important to have the conversation.

This is what I expect the outcome or I hope the outcome to be.

What is it that you hope for?

So that you go into it already with strikes for you instead of against you,

Which will ultimately lead sometimes- Can you have strikes for you?

Well,

Maybe they're checks.

I don't know.

Whatever.

So,

Because what happens is,

And haven't you seen this?

People are fighting about one thing and then they're fighting about something else entirely.

And it's often that they just had this expectation from the conversation- Anything can go their way.

And they're getting more and more angry.

Right.

Exactly.

Number four,

Assign the time of day you are most open to hearing each other.

Really important.

Never ever have an argument right before bed.

I mean,

If you had it,

Don't sit in your bedroom in bed.

Never do this in the bedroom where you're going to have these kind of difficult conversations and you're exhausted or you have to wake up really early in the morning,

You only have six hours to sleep or you've had a really trying day.

It's okay to push pause and say,

Okay,

These feelings don't feel great,

But let's pick it up tomorrow morning or let's meet tomorrow for coffee or go on a date or whatever it is to discuss these things.

There's that quote that says,

What does it say?

Something you mean,

Say something when you're really angry and you'll say the thing that you've regretted the most or like the biggest kind of like,

It will be the worst thing you ever said.

I botched that completely.

It's actually quite nice.

But what you're saying,

Which I think is an important point,

Not just about the timing,

But why are you having this argument?

Why are you having this conversation?

Because you want things to get better.

Well,

Prepare for success,

Right?

Which means environment,

Your state of mind,

Their state of mind.

Make sure as to the degree that you can,

And if you really care about the relationship,

You will do this,

That you prepare the conversation for success,

Right?

Time of day,

Right place,

A state of mind and so on.

Five,

Avoid overreacting,

Remain open enough to see your partner's perspective,

Which is again,

Very difficult,

Especially when we're emotional.

And that's right,

By the way,

It's probably again,

If controllable,

Not to have the argument or the conversation right when you want to have it.

You wait a day or two or three,

If it's important enough after the three,

As we often say,

Then it's worth having it and hopefully you're less reactive.

And again,

This goes back to what we said before.

We do have an aspect of us.

We call it the ego that is not compatible with relationships,

That is not supportive of love.

And that has to be fought while you're fighting in an argument that knowing,

I think it's important we realize that there's a part of me that's going to want to destroy this relationship.

There is a part of me that left unchecked will do that.

And if you are pushing yourself to make sure- That's interesting.

That's the ego you're saying.

Yeah,

The ego,

Call the desire to receive with the self alone.

There is that part of me,

Of each one of us.

And therefore it has to be especially in the times when we're having an important argument to try to check that as much as possible.

Yeah,

That's so interesting.

I mean,

There could be a whole other episode about why people destroy relationships or goodness in their life.

Unfortunately,

People do that all the time.

Six,

Discuss one issue at a time and be specific.

This was really important.

Yes.

Don't use this as an opportunity to rehash the many grievances that have come up in the history of your relationship.

Stick to the issue at hand,

Not about what happened last week or five years ago or even five minutes ago.

Absolutely.

And again- Well,

Maybe it's five minutes ago,

But- That ego part of us is not going to want to do that.

And if you want to know what is causing you to bring up what happened three months ago in this argument about what happened yesterday,

It's your ego.

It is not coming from the part of you that wants to nurture a positive,

Growing,

Thriving relationship.

Seven.

I love this one too.

Avoid words like always and never.

These are trigger words that escalate arguments.

You always do this.

You never do that.

Right?

Just hear it.

And of course,

That's not accurate or true.

And again,

As you said,

If we're only talking about what happened yesterday,

Then what's the difference to make if I ever or never do something?

Because we're talking about something that happened yesterday or whatever it is that happened.

But also,

I find that,

And especially with men,

And I've talked about this too,

That women want to become like their mothers even though we say we don't,

And boys want to be becoming to their mothers.

When boys become men and they then get married,

That transfers to their spouse.

It really matters what we think.

So imagine if a woman uses these kinds of words and he's thinking,

Wait a second,

I did the dishes last night.

I took out the trash three days before that.

You're saying I always and never,

So why bother?

Because they really get discouraged.

So these kinds of words make things black or white and it never is.

Eight,

Don't interrupt.

Take turns speaking.

This is a big one too.

Listen actively with the intention of really hearing what the other person has to say.

Most people listen with the intention to be able to get their point of view across right away without really actually hearing.

And again,

The ego,

That part of us that does not want us to have growing and nurtured relationships,

Is that part of us that's going to not want to listen and only listen for something that I can use now,

You know,

Attacks.

Against you,

Exactly.

Nine,

Be willing to compromise.

We all have things that are important to us.

When it's very important to your partner,

See where you can be more flexible and take turns compromising because some things are going to matter more to one and other things can matter more to the other.

And it needs to take a person that's actually both emotionally intelligent and say,

Okay,

Wait,

I know this really matters to him.

I could really,

I don't really care about that.

So I'll be flexible for this argument.

It doesn't mean that I have to let him win every kind of argument or always side with him,

But just to have that kind of approach.

And ten,

A successful fight means you both walk away feeling heard and understood.

Remember,

It's not about winning.

Ultimately,

If you don't feel appreciated,

Heard,

Or have open lines of communication,

Then these petty fights that occur usually aren't what you're fighting about at all.

It isn't about the remote or going to the in-laws for dinner,

And it certainly isn't about the toilets being left up.

But it's going to be difficult to get to the underlying issues unless you agree upon a fighting style and rules of engagement.

Absolutely.

I think that's a very good question for every couple,

Every person in the relationship to ask themselves.

Last time we argued,

Did I or my partner really feel heard?

And unfortunately,

I know many of the couples that you see,

That's almost never the case because an argument or a conversation or an important conversation is almost always about did I get my point across,

Not whether I listened and they listened.

Because what we're saying is that maybe one of the greatest opportunities to deepen and strengthen a relationship is when there's a disagreement.

And I think following these ten or at least most of these rules when we are in disagreement,

The benefit is not just that we'll have better arguments with better results,

Actually the relationship will get better.

And I think that's such a key that like you said before,

We often hear from couples,

Oh,

We never argue.

And for us,

That's not a good sign usually.

It just means either they don't care enough or there's some greater imbalance in the relationship.

There are going to be disagreements if you're both important in the relationship and use everything but certainly the disagreements and the arguments to strengthen the relationship.

And I'd like to say,

I think most of the times that we've had arguments or disagreements,

Most if not all but hopefully all,

We are relationship deepened from that almost always.

That was our intention,

Right?

And that's why we do have the arguments actually.

So on that vein,

What is the worst fight you remember us having?

It's funny,

I don't know about the worst.

I actually remember like two or three.

But I was going to say,

I think I might've talked and spoken about this.

There was one like six months ago or something like that.

That really touched on you.

No,

No,

Exactly.

I was so entertained by it.

It was ridiculous.

I wasn't even.

Yes,

Exactly.

I felt very angry in the moment but I wasn't really angry about anything.

Yeah,

I'm trying to remember.

I don't even remember what it was about.

It wasn't even about,

I think you just happened to be there.

No,

And then,

But yeah.

Yeah,

So.

So do you remember or you don't?

I remember another one number of years ago when we were living in Los Angeles.

I don't remember exactly what it was about.

You know what I remember most?

Tell me.

What were you going to say?

No,

No,

And I just remember,

It's funny and I think this is really to the point that we're talking about.

My only memory as I think back is- You're still going to say my answer.

Oh,

Sorry.

No,

Go ahead.

Is that after when we were paired,

I felt greater love and vulnerability both from you and to you.

I think that's rarely what we're striving for that especially the more serious arguments that we have,

And even if we don't have them in the best way following these 10 rules,

When we look back on them,

We can actually see them as moments when our love,

Vulnerability grew.

Yeah,

My answer is pretty much the same that I remembered how we were paired.

Interesting.

Oh,

So we're on the same page.

And not the fight,

But I always remember how we felt after and- It's funny,

I remember elements of the fight.

Yeah.

But my emotional memory.

What I'm left with.

Exactly.

My emotional memory.

High five,

Buddy.

Great.

So we have a lot more questions from our listeners we haven't gotten to.

So is this a part two one?

This is a part two one.

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