Motherless Mother's Day With Cheryl Strayed

When she was in her senior year of college, Cheryl Strayed’s mother, Bobbi, received a cancer diagnosis and died in just seven weeks. Today, I’m speaking with her about the death of her mom and how we can live full, beautiful lives after a mother dies. This is a replay of a live conversation where we explored what to do with the feeling of longing that never goes away, the helpfulness of self-forgiveness, and why putting ourselves in the way of beauty can help us soften the ache of grief.

Transcript

Hi there, And welcome to Coming Back, A podcast about coming back to life after death, Divorce, Diagnosis and more. Today I'm sharing a replay of my live conversation with New York Times bestselling author Cheryl Strayed on Motherless Mother's Day 2020. In this conversation all about living life after a mom dies, We talked about what to do with the feeling of longing that never really goes away, How self-forgiveness is a beautiful way to handle guilt and regret, And why putting ourselves in the way of beauty helps us honor our moms, Even in death. I'm Shelby Forsythia, An intuitive grief guide and author who speaks, Writes and teaches powerful truths on grief and loss. My mom's death in 2013 set me on the path to becoming a lifelong student of grief, And I use what I learned to create a world where grief is welcomed, Normalized, And even embraced. Because even through grief, We are growing. Let's get started. Hi there, Grief growers, And welcome to the inaugural very first live episode of the Coming Back podcast, And we are so honored today to be virtually sitting across from Cheryl Strayed, The New York Times bestselling author of Wild, As well as Tiny Beautiful Things, Which ran a production across the United States, I believe, Last year. So Cheryl, Thank you so much for joining us today on Coming Back. It's wonderful to be here, Shelby. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you on this Mother's Day. And I'll just do some housekeeping things here right at the beginning. For anyone asking, I've gotten several emails where this will be posted after the interview. It will be live on the Coming Back podcast feed as well as YouTube so you can see our faces or you can just listen to our voices, Whichever suits you. And a huge, Huge, Enormous thank you to Elisa Fornare and the folks at Reimagine End of Life for constructing the entirety of the weekend that has been Motherless Mother's Day. We will be kind of looking at your commentary throughout the interview, But Cheryl and I will be taking questions about what it's like to live life after a mother dies in the last like 20 minutes or so of our conversation. For now, We would absolutely love if you would share your lost story, Maybe say your mom's name or post a photo in the comments. We'd really love to hear the person that brought you here today. Yeah. Mm hmm. Her roots of motherhood. So I'm sure that's I think where I want to start with you is to share not just your lost story about your mom, Because I think Motherless Mother's Day can often focus on where things ended, Where the relationship ended, But who was your mom in life? Who was she to you? And who does she continue to be? Wow. Well, I could talk I think, Like many of us, We could talk for for hours and days and weeks and months about our mothers. But I'll try to give you the brief version. I her name was Bobby. And she also I'll start at the end. She died when she was 45. Of advanced stage lung cancer. She only knew that she had cancer for seven weeks. She was she was perfectly healthy and vibrant and well, And she got sick and died. And we were both seniors in college. She died on the Monday of the spring break of our senior year in college. And she had been really the the root of my life, The love of my life, As I've written in in one of my essays, And in my work, She had gotten pregnant at 19 and married my father because of that. And it was really it was 1965. There were very few choices for women then and so she found herself unexpectedly in, You know, As a teenage mom and in an abusive marriage with my dad, They stayed together for like eight or nine years and had three kids. I'm the middle child. And she bravely left my father and it was during a time where we had so little awareness about domestic violence, And there was no place for women like my mom to go. But she was really brave and really strong. And we got away from him, And that abuse and that terror. And so then she was a single mom, She worked as a waitress and in factories, And we received welfare and public assistance and really were very we lived in poverty, We were very poor, But we were very happy. And it was because my mother was an exceptional person. And she loved us the way I you know that we all hope our mothers will she loved us as I wrote in wild full throttle. She believed in us. She championed us, She nurtured us. And she was really the center of our lives. And I also had the luxury of kind of taking my mom for granted. I I loved my mother, We were always close, But I was like, Yeah, That's what mothers are supposed to do, Right. And so when she got sick and died, I realized I couldn't live. I couldn't live without her. I could not live without my mother. And it took me many years to figure out how to do it. Finally, I realized that that the only way to live without her is to honor her with my life. And so I hope I've done that I have a daughter and a son. My mom, My mother lives in both of them. And my daughter's name is Bobby after my mom, Bobby. What about you, Shelby? Tell me your mom story. I just love that they continue on in their own ways our loved ones do. The very first point where I noticed a connection between the two of us is that my mom also died in my senior year of college. She had cancer for like a year or so and then it went away. And we were all rejoicing. And it has been years and years of strife for our family with medical issues on the part of both my parents. I there was a time when I thought both of them were going to die. And then her cancer returned pretty quickly in November of 2013. And doctors told us, You know, Maybe we had six weeks, Six months. And as soon as she got the diagnosis of the cancers back, There's nothing more we can do. She died in a week. So we lost her. Yeah, We lost her the day after Christmas in 2013. And the very first it's fascinating being here on Motherless Mother's Day, Because the first big thing I had to do without her was graduate and our graduation day was Mother's Day. And so that event as like the first big thing milestone that I had to do sans the energy of my mother, And the presence, The physical presence of my mother just about split me into it's something that I still kind of have amnesia about, Because it was so I had this expectation of this is what my life was going to look like. And then there was the reaction, How it actually rolled out. And they were so radically different. And that was the first day I really had to reckon with this was the picture of the future I had. And now it is dead. And this is the life I'm now living. And so stepping into that, Albeit unwillingly kind of being yanked forward by this chain pulled forward by this chain was really hard. But in life, She also was a full throttle love mom, The only thing she ever wanted to be was a mother. And she chose a very good man to marry. So between her and my father, We both experienced like the ideal of childhood, Suburbia, North Carolina, Piano lessons, Dance, Recital soccer matches, All these other things that people say, Say that they want for their kids are the things that are featured on sitcoms like that was kind of our life. And, And there was just the sensation in her of, Of welcomeness of comfort of being present, Even if she wasn't physically present. And that's something that continues on with Sandy. And actually, A bit of her jewelry today in honor of our conversation, Because I like the ways in which I can keep her close. I don't have children of my own. But I speak in a couple of my courses about how can we construct reminders of our home people around us with physical markers. And so we get as close as we can, We get as close as we can. I do that same thing. I call them talismans objects that we imbue with meaning. And I certainly have so many of them in my life. I'm always carrying my mom with me in objects. And, And it feels it feels like one of the things that we can do to help to bring them to us. Yeah, And I kind of want to toss a tricky question your way, But I had a conversation with my sister this morning, Even hours before we went on here. And she's like, I have the photos, I have the sweatshirt, I have the rings, I have all of these mementos, But it's still, It never quite feels like enough. And I echoed this, If Yeah, We try and get as close as we can to recreate them in real physical life where we are. But there's always this, There's always like an ache, There's always a longing. And sometimes if I really tune into it, It feels like that chain either being pulled forward or pulled down of just a heaviness. And I feel like living life after a mom dies is figuring out what to do with that energy. And so I'm wondering how you've negotiated that sense of longing that's continued on for for 30 years now. Yeah, I think that's really, Really important to embrace and acknowledge that the fact of it is, We can do all these things, Right, We can wear their rings, And we can plant flowers in their honor, We can name our children after them, We can, You know, Have rituals and ceremonies, And tell ourselves that they're always with us. But in one very real way, They are not. And sometimes all that stuff is not enough. And I know that, Oh, My God, I know that suffering so much. And maybe once a year, It's gotten down to about once a year now for me, Maybe once a year, I'll just have a realization that none of that is enough. And I and I am just sad, And I will cry my heart out. And I think that, You know, For me, One of the most healing truths has been this idea that two things can be true at the same time. And for me, For sure, When it comes to my mother is that it will never ever, Ever, Ever be okay, That she died when she was 45, That I had to live my adult life, My entire adult life without her, It will never ever be okay. And yet, I, I can be okay. And in fact, I can not only be okay, I can actually be a better person, A more compassionate person, A stronger person, A wiser person, Because she died. Because her though it is one of the greatest I mean, It is the greatest sorrow of my life, My mother's death, It is among my greatest gifts too, Because I have turned that ugliness and sorrow and loss into beauty, And generosity, And love. I've turned it into mothering others, But not just my own kids, But really reaching out to others. I know you have to Shelby, What we're doing right now. You know, I can't read these comments on the side here, Because I don't have my reading glasses. But, But I, But I feel you all of you people watching us and listening to us right now, I like I know you are kindred spirits, I know, I know, You know what I mean. And I know what you mean. And that is so powerful. It is such a powerful thing. And, You know, It gives me strength, It gives me strength to be part of this group. And it gives me strength to give to this group. And that, You know, That's, That's what I do when I feel it's not enough is I just, You know, I accepted and wrap my arms, Arms around it. And also, You know, Remember that, That both things can be true at once, We can be okay, Even if it will never be okay. Yeah, I think that's really key is is agreeing with the truth that it's not enough, Instead of trying to prove to yourself that that's not true. There's this perception, I think that grief or loss or heartache is required in order to make us better people, Or that because we become better people, Somehow we're 100% grateful for what happened. And I'm like, Wow, It's such a, It's such a tricky line in the sand to draw of. Yes, I've become better because of this. But I would sacrifice, Give up everything in my life that I built because of it, If I could have my mother back like it's not. We make the best we can with the materials and the light that we're given, As opposed to Yes, I wanted loss to happen because it's going to make me better. It's the opposite. I think of the triumph story that a lot of the world and a lot of the media tells especially about parent loss. I did an interview recently with a woman from the Dougie Center for grieving children in Oregon. And she spoke about how one child that she was working with who was grieving pointed out to her that every superhero movie starts with an orphan. Yeah. And and she was like, There's a danger in telling that story. That loss makes us supernatural somehow I do agree that it makes brings us closer to ourselves and spirituality into the divine. If you believe in those sorts of things, It can it has that potential but it's not. It's not built in. Right? Well, It's complicated. And it's also for for everyone. I mean, I know, I know exactly what you're saying. On one hand, It's it's kind of empowering to realize that that all those superheroes are orphans. And it's because you know, It's an absolute crucible. It's a trial. You know, You have to make yourself a new when you lose somebody who is essential to you. And, And, And very often wisdom comes up that but also sometimes people. It's the opposite. I mean, Sometimes something, You know, Happens like we lose a parent and, You know, And we and we fall. And, You know, It isn't wisdom that rises. It's suffering, It's sorrow, It's a sense of that we lose our way. And, You know, So I think that the, You know, All of the narratives about about all of these experiences are true. And that is, It's very, It's a complicated thing, Right? You know, As you say so well, Like, Yeah, I would never if I could, I'd give everything away. If I could go back and get my mom back, I would, I would give all that writing about grief, I'd put it in a bucket. But, You know, We don't get to choose that. I think that that's also a really interesting lesson is like, For me, A huge part of grief has been learning how to accept to just simply accept that my mom is dead. And then when you do that, You say, Okay, Well, What next? Yeah, I teach a course and literally the goal of it is to love the life that loss has forced you to live. Yeah, We don't get to opt into this experience. It's not like it's an email subscription and you get to opt in or opt out and you can unsubscribe at any time. It's very much this has been thrust upon you there is there is a choicelessness and a powerlessness. And I think some of reckoning with death in general, But especially the death of our mothers, I just wrote down mother loss is compass breaking. There's a loss of direction that happens when we lose a mother. I think they're they're anchoring figures for us. And so to learn how to live in a world where that compass is broken, And we recognize our not our total powerlessness, But gosh, There's so much that's out of our control. So much and I think, I mean, What we're talking about is, You know, Nobody, Nobody wants to have their compass shattered or take, You know, Buried or whatever, You know, Whatever metaphor we want to use. And yet, What's also true is like, Wow, What an empowering thing if you are somebody who, Who had who ended up finding your own compass, Like who had to actually make it from scratch DIY compass. And like, That's what we're talking about here is like we we were put, You know, In losing our mothers, We were put through a test that that we didn't want to take. And, And it's not it's not at all saying you're glad your mother's dead to say to acknowledge that something powerful came from that. Yeah, Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that. And I, I wish that there was a way in the world that allowed us to visually be able to tell two stories at once, Because I think for so much of the world, Because we're physically upright, Or we're forming complete sentences, They think we're okay. I'm like, No, I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate the rest of my life without my mother still, Even now. And yeah, I often wish there was like a like a pin or a badge or a tattoo or something that just popped up that was like, Okay, Here, I'm still trying to figure out how to do do life without her here. How many years has she been dead? Shelby? When did she die? Seven this Christmas. So it's, It still feels very new. And yet I already find myself watching the calendar for getting closer to her age when she died. And also watching the people around me get closer to those ages or even beyond those ages as well. And I'm like, Wow, What would that have been like, There's a lot of there's so much exploring and pondering of like, If you were here right now, What would your life even look like? And I'll shift right now to the Coronavirus crisis, The fact that we're in a global pandemic, Honoring Mother's Day, I'm like, Where would you be? Would you be a person that wears a mask? Or would you not? Would you, You know, Be volunteering somewhere? Would you and my father, You know, Be hunkering down hoarding toilet paper? Like, I really don't know. Would we have monthly weekly phone calls? And how would we be connected now? And so every new event that comes up in the world global or not, Even every event that comes up in my world, Tiny is, Is kind of a jumpstart of pondering of where would you be? Yes. Yeah, Well, Every good and bad and big thing that happens either in your own personal life or in the, You know, The life of the planet or the nation is, Is an is a thing that's happening without your mom. And, You know, I'm so I've been struck by that so many times over the years that the presence of the absence. What would my mom have said to me? My first book was published, What would my mom have said to me when my children were born? What would you know, On and on and on, I'm going to start crying now. All of those things that we don't get to have our moms for that, That loss is made new every time, Every time they're not there. So yeah, I always think of my mom, You know, When whenever something big happens, Or small, Too, It's like, You know, Just that ability to kind of share it with that person who was the person who, At least in my case, You know, She was, She was my, My, My, My home base, You know, She was the woman who I sort of defined everything against. And so yet to have to simply come to terms with that. And I will say, So. So in March, It'll be 30 years since my mom died. And I will say, Shelby, There, There is a, You know, For me, There has been a difference between seven years out and 30 years out. And I wouldn't say it's like, Oh, It's easier. But but you get, I guess I've gotten a lot more used to that feeling of just like, No, Mom, No, Mom, No, Mom, No, Mom, No ever, Ever, Ever any mom, It becomes more familiar than the opposite. It took me years before I really believed that my mom was dead. For I mean, Literally, It could be like, You know, 17 years after she died, And the phone would ring, And my first thought would be like, Oh, Is it my mom? And it's like, No, It's never gonna be your mom. And so, You know, It does over time, I think that that awareness of, Of their absence deepens. And, You know, Just the other day, A couple weeks ago, I was talking to my husband. And I was saying, You know, I can't imagine, I truly cannot imagine what my life would be if my mom were alive, Which was kind of sad, Because when she died, I was like, I can't, I can't imagine my life without my mom. Yeah. But now it's been so long. And those those milestones you mentioned, Like, What, When I, When I'm 51. So when I was 45, The age she died, That I noted that when I passed that time where I was, I've been alive longer with her dead than I was when she was alive. I noted that, You know, It was those those milestones matter. And, And over time, You know, It does become like, I guess that that absence becomes your reality, Rather than the opposite. And this is where I'll draw a parallel to your book wild in the sense of I have this sense that grief is like something I'm figuring out how to carry. And with each step, You said, No, Mom, No, Mom, No, Mom, It's almost this bizarre walking meditation that I do, Even when I'm not thinking about it out in the world. And even when I am thinking about it, My mom's not here, Mom's not here, Mom's not here, Mom's not here. And I'm figuring out how to carry, Gosh, The weight of that in my back. And I think a lot of people expect the weight to get smaller. But I think the reality is that that our legs and our backs get stronger, Like we practice carrying so much that it becomes so that we can carry it. And so much of what society thinks and believes is that grief can become smaller or go away. And I'm like, Oh, Fortunately, That's not the reality. The reality is the grief stays the same size, We just get a proper backpack, Or we are we carry it for so long that our quads are able to hold it up under us. And it's, It's been for as much as grief has been a journey of putting things together. It's also been a journey of taking things apart, In terms of the stories that I told myself about how grief was going to work, How society has pitched it to me or sold it sold me for as much as it can sell grief. And then what's actually happened again, It kind of floats in this world of here's what I thought it would look like. And here's how it's actually showing up. And I think kind of the older I get, And the more life that I live, I've started tilting into this place of well, I don't even know how she would respond if she was here. Yeah, Our lives would look totally different. The the anchors would be in a totally different location, The ships would look different, Like they would just all be restructured so differently. And there's a grief in that, As well. There's a grief and say, I can't even imagine what life would look like here. Because it's it's kind of something else that's being lost. Yeah, It's it's tremendous. And, And also, It's a recognition that, That, You know, That it's the grief in some ways that define who we became, You know, That that, Like, So much of my writing, You know, That, Like, I would say that the thing that most people would say about my writing, Like the first thing they would say, If she writes about her mom, Her grief, Her mother's death over and over in every form, Right. So like, Like all of this, You know, So much of that experience made me so who would I not only what would it be like, If she were here, Who would she be like, What would I be like, Is it is a question that has a lot of loss in it. And, And it's sort of, You know, You've entered the unimaginable. It's kind of like, You know, We're like the superheroes were forged by that. I call it my, My origin story. And, You know, I think that that in so many ways, I wrote about this some wild and tiny, Beautiful things both and I really believe it, That that when my mom died, That there was a certain version of me that died with her. And that I had to find a way to live in the world without her. And that was such a radical shift that it was like being born again. There's a there's an end of life as we know it, But then there's also an end of self. Yeah, No, It's right. Have multiple funerals. When someone that we love dies, Especially somebody so I keep getting this image of like foundation or bedrock as mother, This giant brick with which we anchor so much of our lives to I'm kind of watching the comments a little bit and there's notes in there about things left unresolved. And I think that just about everybody dies in the middle of the communication of some sort. But for moms, Especially it can feel like when a part of us goes missing or that anchor goes missing. What do we do when we weren't done with the conversation? They weren't done with us or we weren't done with them, Or both. I think it's really one of the most painful aspects of losing a mom is that stuff that goes unresolved. And, You know, I know that like even in my own case, Where I had a very loving, Very communicative, Very open and happy relationship with my mom. I was tortured for for years over small things. Like that, You know, The last Christmas gift she gave me I wrote about it and in tiny beautiful things like I complained about it. I was like, Oh, It's too puffy. It's too long. And, You know, I was just being I was just being you know, Your basic, You know, 22 year old kind of, You know, Taking mom for granted. And a month later, We found out found out she had cancer and she was going to die and then late, You know, Later my mom dies. And I'm like, Why didn't I just thank her for that coat? You know, And I mean, It seems so small. It killed me for years or other little things. You know, I think a lot of people who lost their mom around the age that I did, Where if you were a teenager or in your 20s, You know, Your job is to separate from your parents to be kind of like, Oh, Yeah, Mom back off. And so, You know, I those weren't the years that I was the most like, Oh, My God, Mom, Like, You are the most amazing. And I just want to hang out with you all the time. Like, I did a little of that. But but you know, I also was kind of like, Distancing from my mom. And you know, I was, I tormented myself about that for years. And, And finally just had to come to peace with it and realize, You know, First of all, You know, My mom knew I loved her. And she knew that I was, You know, I was behaving in a developmentally appropriate way. Read does not obliterate that fact, You know, And that that also, You know, What I always try to think of is like, And it's helped me to be a mother, Because I can sort of view it through that lens, Where I think like, If, If I die young, What do I want my kids to do? Do I want them to torment themselves about all the times that they were, You know, They weren't the way they should have been with me or about the conflicts we have or the things that that were left unsaid, Or, You know, Those were no, You know, What I want them to do, I just want them to know that the bigger picture is the only thing that actually matters is I love them. And I knew they loved me. And that bond will last all of their lives until the day they die. Nothing can obliterate that. And so those those arguments, Even if they're bigger arguments, You know that none of none of that erases the truest thing. Okay, We've talked about, You know, How a couple things can be true at once, And things are complicated, And da, Da, Da, Da, And that is true. But in this case, I'm adamant, It's when somebody dies, Who you love, And who was loved by you. That's the only really true thing is the truth of that love. That's all that really matters. That's all that they carried away with them, Wherever they went. And it's all I hope any of us carry with us as we go forward. I literally just wrote down the truest thing. Because I think that's so crucial in understanding life after loss, Because there's this belief of, If I'm feeling guilty, Or if I'm tormenting myself, Or if I'm feeling ashamed, Or if I felt like I wasn't done, Then I'm not acknowledging all the love that was there. And I'm like, No, That's I think that's a primary source of where it's coming from. And I remember something clicked in with me on an episode of Dear Sugars that you did with Steve Almond about how guilt is a way that we keep our loved ones alive. Totally. It's almost like we continue to water the garden, Even the plants with the thorns. And, And I've had this happen in my own life. I mean, One of the things I replay the most of memories of my mom is one time, We had one of those stoves where the storage for pots and pans was underneath the actual oven. It was a drawer that pulled out and one time I ran over her foot, And she screamed at me and I kept going because I didn't realize that she was in pain. I didn't realize she was in pain. I didn't realize it was my doing that right causing her to be in pain. So I kept going and I feel so bad. And it's something that continues small, Tiny one day of life with her. And yet it's something that comes up and I wish I could call her and be like, Remember that time I ran over your foot with the stove? I'm so sorry. And I was like 12. It was one of these things where, You know, It was a developmentally appropriate mistake to have made for the age that I was and we are just forgetful cooking in the kitchen together. But it's one of those things that continues to play. And in a sense, It's all I have, You know, These memories that are left, I'm like, I've got a limited bank to work with here. And so the memories that I replay are a combination of really good things and things that fill my heart up, But also things of like, Ah, Damn it, I wish I could go back and, And have that one small conversation and apologize. And I don't think it's so, You know, It's so like, Yeah, That's, I do think it is, It's like a way of staying, Like keeping that relationship active or attached or something. But, You know, I also think it's, It's, You know, Really fascinating to me that we do this, Because of course, When they were alive, We were just in living relationship with them. And sometimes we like ran their foot over with a drawer, Sometimes we didn't say thank you. I mean, And then, Like, I think that that's, You know, What we're doing is conflating that experience, Like everyone we love, We're kind of crappy to sometimes, You know, I mean, That's just part of life. And then they die. And suddenly, They become this, Like, You know, Frozen in our in our psyches. And we realize just, Like I just said, All we really feel for them is love. And we want to go back and erase everything that wasn't that but you know, That does a disservice, I think to the real, You know, The real relationships we actually had with these people. And, You know, My heart really hurts for people who are tormented about bigger conflicts or bigger, You know, Complexities in the relationships. And all I can say is like, You really, Really have to trust that love that love is the most powerful thing. And and in some ways, That person who you know, Your mom, You know, Knows that was in your heart, I believe that. I mean, Shelby, The biggest thing for me, And I know the people who are tuned in here today, Who are also mothers will relate to this is, You know, Once I had kids, I was like, Oh, My goodness, You know, I was just like, I am so sorry, Mom. I'm so sorry, You know, I, I just and I think my friends who have living moms, Once they have kids, They go to their moms and go, Oh, You know, Thank you for everything you gave me. And I know you did your best. Thank you so much. And you know, I just wish I could say that to my mom, Because being a mom, It turns out is actually a lot of work. And it demands a lot of sacrifice and sacrifices that I didn't really see until I had my own kids. And then I was just like, Wow, I understood, You know, Really, Really deeply, You know, How grateful I was to my mom, And I never got to say thank you for that. I mean, I said thank you as much as you know, A 22 year old mom, I didn't get to say thank you as a 42 year old or a 32 year old or you know, And and so I just think we have to let that go and know that our mothers knew our mothers knew I mean, I think that of my own kids all the time, I think I hope you have kids someday just so I have my revenge. And I love that notion too, Of like, You just wait. Wait, Yeah. One thing that I love that I'm picking up on in your voice is this ability to self forgive for things that were left unsaid, Undone, And even to to have this mindset of I was doing what was appropriate at 22 I did the best I could at 22. I think that's something that has come with my continued I'm using I'm talking to my hands a lot, But like my continued looking back at my relationship with my mom. It's not just you're the worst person in the world because this happened and now it can never be undone. It's you were 12 years old, You were 19 years old, You were 22 years old. And so there's this, You know, Brene Brown says, We're all doing the best we can with the tools we have at the time with the information that we know and the ways that we were raised. And so adding all of those together chemically, Both for us and our mothers can help not resolve but add more information to add more cushion to add more self forgiveness to these things that feel like they hurt and continue to hurt so bad. And when I work with clients, I'm like, Guilt, Rumination, Shame, Like telling these stories over and over again is not a bad thing. I think so much of it is continuing to keep our loved ones alive. But it's also us trying to figure out where this story goes. It's like we haven't built through the corral yet. And so it just keeps kind of winding around until we figure out okay, It had this circumstances this time in my life, This story. And it's like these things wait for us to build structures for them. And then they move in and that's where they live. There are many rooms in my brain. And in my heart as well. That's right. Yeah, So forgiveness is key if we're going to grant that our mothers did the best they could. And I think most of us are pretty capable of doing that, Then we need to grant that to ourselves to that we as daughters and sons did the best we could as well. Yeah, It's a really important piece of it. I want to touch now really quickly, I had a note in here to speak on the ways in which our loved ones show up in our physical bodies, After they leave us both through dreams, Both through aches and pains, All these other ways in which they kind of weave themselves into us and how we see them in others. I have an aunt who has hands exactly like my mom. And so every time I see her, Show me your hands, I want to see your arms because from here here is just like that was my mother. And and also there's a connection I think in the ways that our our bodies also grief. I think there's a perception that grief is a heart thing and like, Oh, No griefs, Full body psyche, Mental, Emotional. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, There's it's, It's interesting. I always love it when people say I look like my mom. I we don't look like strikingly similar. But every once in a while when I'll post a picture of my mom, And my social media, People will say, Oh, I see, I see you in her. And I always I love that. But I will say like, We have similar bodies I see, You know, I see my mom in my like my feet. You know, I see my mom in my, In my bent, I have like bent pinkies, Like at the very ends, They, A certain percent of the population has this kind of pinky. I don't know if you guys can see it, That like Judson and, And my mom had that and my both of my kids have that. And so it's, It's those little things. And also, It's like the, What's also fascinating to me, Are the even more kind of like, The things that aren't like that, It's not my mom and me, But like, I have a cup, Like I have a friend, Sarah, Who she looks like my mom, You know, Like there and there again, When I post pictures of my mom, Like, I just put up a picture yesterday, One of my friends who also knows my friend Sarah, A couple of my friends who knows her, I was like, Your mom looks like Sarah. And I'm like, I know, I know. And there's, There's this way in which, You know, I've observed, I've been friends with Sarah for like 20 years now. And I, I've sometimes just thought, Oh, It's just like a little kind of a little kind of nod from the universe. It's like, We'll give you just a little echo of your mom. Yeah, In a friend, You know, Things like that, I just, They mean a lot to me or, You know, I mean, Talk about this, This isn't going to be like a normal experience for most people, But to have Laura Dern play my mom in the movie of wild and to have her reenact scenes from my life, Joyous scenes, And sad scenes and my my daughter Bobby played the child me. So when Reese Witherspoon is remembering her childhood, The little girl who is with Laura Dern is my daughter, Bobby. So my kids in car, You know, We were on the film set and everything. So my kids actually got to interact with Laura Dern, Who was pretending to be their grandmother. And it was like, Utterly mind blowing. I mean, I wept and wept and wept, It meant a lot to me. And it was like, Oh, This is a little gift, Again, From the universe little, You know, Like, If you if you, If you just hold on, If you if you, You know, If you just hold on, If you look, If you pay attention, Our mothers will be given back to us in the tiniest of ways. And that that's what has gotten me through. And that's what will get us through. Yeah, That's, That's just the perfect way to phrase that. And it reminds me of this article I wrote a while ago called seeing my dead mom in the mirror because my friends joke that my mother was a carbon copy machine. They're like, We don't know what happened with your father, But your sister and you are just clones. Right. And so there's this weird phenomenon that happens every time I see a mirror. I see my mother in her 20s. I've seen pictures of her in her 20s. And we're like twins sans 80s hair. Like that's the only thing that's missing. And it's wild to see. And so it's almost like every time I look into the mirror, I also look into the eyes and the face and the lips and the hair. Yeah, My mother and I love getting together with my sister and my two aunts respectively, Because it's almost like within the four of us, We can almost create North, South, East, West, Like we can almost rebuild the compass. And it's so so it gives me chills to even talk about it's so powerful to see. And one of the coolest things that used to bring me a lot of grief, But now it brings me a lot of joy is to see somebody Well, Not so much in quarantine, But to see people out in department stores or here in downtown Chicago, Or like on the bus, And you see them from behind, Like, Oh, There's my mom. And then they turn around. And obviously it's not and it used to fill me with so much just like chest opening agony. And now it's like, Oh my god, She decided to say, Hey, Same thing when I see like her make and model of car somebody drinking green tea, Like it's very much. And for people watching this as well. I'm like, You have permission to ask for things from them. You have permission to ask for them to show up. Because when when we say to our loved ones, However you choose to communicate with them through journaling, Or talking to ceiling or voice memos in your phone, However you communicate with them to say, Hey, I'd like to see a little more of you today. And even bringing that to the front of your consciousness, Like I think you'll be surprised by by what shows up and just permission to allow that to Yeah, To unfold for you. And that there are like sometimes it'll just be like, I'll be walking along and there will be a flower my mom's favorite flowers, Queen Anne's lace that reminds me of my mom. There it is. My mom's favorite flowers is Queen Anne's lace. Mine too. And you know, When I was hiking on the PCT, They were always with me. And in my life, They're always with me. And also, You know, I want to say there are a couple things, A couple other things, Or sometimes it can be like a song that you know, You're feeling sad and you turn on the car radio, And then there's the song that that like is your was reminds you of your mom, Right? Yeah. But you know, There are a couple other things. One is that I also have really conjured my mom alive in my work. People all over the world know my know my mom. They do. Her name is all over the comments right now. Bobby, I'm like, Okay. I mean, Do you know how much that blows me away? Like, That's amazing. And, And, You know, What I wanted is my mother back when my mom died, And that's all I want. That's all I've ever wanted is my mother back. And I can never get that. But guess what I did, I brought her back. And the only way I have the power to do and that is to tell her story, To tell the story of how much I loved her and how much I grieve her. And people received it and they know her through me. And so that's a beautiful thing. And I also want to say another way I think we bring our our mothers back is we gather around each other, We do stuff like this, We share stories. Angela Schellenberg, I think is maybe here, I see one of her comments here. If you don't know she is she's this wonderful, Extraordinary woman who has just written does powerful work about about parent loss and mother loss. And she and I have just really bonded over our, Our grief and our love of our mothers. And she gave me a necklace she made an earring she made and I wear them often and every time I wear them, Like I think of my mother through her like I think of the chain of love that can be made around our loss when we connect with each other same with hope Adelman, A dear friend of mine Claire Bidwell Smith, You know, So many other women who have said to me, I see you, I know you, I'm sorry for your loss, And I'm with you. And they connect me also to my mother. Does that make sense? Do you feel that too? She'll be Well, It's like, It's like the whole can't be filled in. But it's like the I love this, The chains of love, They just keep getting connected and they cross over and all these bridges get built. And so it's like we're kind of patchwork quilting over the whole. And so the original pain remains the big grief, The big loss that can never be replaced remains, But like we're doing the best we can to, To make those connections and to continue to revive them in our own ways. Absolutely. And I know we're getting close to q&a time. So grief growers who are watching, If you could leave a question in the comments for Cheryl and myself, We'll try and do rapid fire so we can get to as many as possible. But we'd love to hear some thoughts, Questions that you have on life after a mom dies, And we'd be glad to answer them for you. Let's see, I'm gonna scroll up and find some. Let's see. Okay. Yeah, I should probably my reading glasses so I can see these questions. Yeah, I mean, I think what I what I think is very cool about what's so powerful and important about this kind of community. And whether it be on the level of friendships, Or a wider thing like this, It's like that we are talents. We're in some ways talismans for each other. We're saying, I know what you feel seen as such a powerful thing. And so thank you. Yes, Yes. And I've gotten to welcome up Shelby and Cheryl. Was there anyone in your lives who took the brunt of the mean or unfair byproducts of your grief and pain? Have you taught yourself to not scorch the earth and those around you with the pain of loss? Yeah, I would say that in my so when I when my mom died, I was 22. And I was married. And I was married to somebody I loved and who was a wonderful person. And but I was too young to be married. Really, I should have not I should have just, We should have just been boyfriend and girlfriend. But we had gotten married. And, And I would say probably he was the one who took the brunt of my grief, Because what happened when my mom died is it's sort of everything that wasn't true, Had to end everything that wasn't true, Even so even though I loved him, I couldn't be I just wasn't interested in being a wife. So I was promiscuous, You know, I just sort of looked for love everywhere and really just self destructed. And so he was, You know, I broke his heart, I really broke his heart. But the thing is, That, You know, I feel about that is I also made amends, You know, I tried really hard to, To, You know, Do the right things. And I just wasn't strong enough to leave the marriage to just say to him, Listen, I don't want to be married, And I can't do this. So you know, I did stuff that that ended up being more heartbreaking than it needed to be. But I will say, You know, We were friends, And we came through it as friends. And even a couple years ago, I saw him. And we had a wonderful time together. And he looked at me and he said, Just so you know, You know, I forgive you for everything. And I just said, Thank you. And he said, You know, I so you know, We we came through together and he understood that sometimes when we're suffering, You know, We have to burn the house down. And I had to do that. That was, You know, That was my house. Now, I probably would have gotten divorced anyway, That marriage, Like I said, You know, As much as I loved him, I wasn't ready for it. But it was certainly my mother's death brought it right to the front. Yeah, It cancels out everything that's no longer true or valid. Noel, From my perspective, I also burned down a relationship that was really important to me. And so I'll echo Cheryl here and say that it's never too late to go back and apologize. Like, Wow, I was a real jerk during that season of my life. I'm really sorry, And allowing that to open up conversation. And now as I'm getting older, With my grief, I almost have to put in a bid for permission with my friends of like permission to rant permission to rage because I'm feeling it today. And to almost be like, This is what's coming. Are you ready? And if they're not, I'm like, Okay, I need to find another container for this. Great question. Let's see. Oh, This is one directly for you, Cheryl Emily says, Did you struggle to explain your mother's loss to your kids? My daughter was five when she lost her grandmother, She struggles and I don't always feel I can help because I'm processing to? Yeah, I'm sorry for your loss. You know, For for me, With my kids, My, You know, They were my mom was dead long before I had kids. And so from the very beginning, Really, Like, I mean, You know, When they're babies, I just started talking to them about my mom. So it was always a story I told them. And once they were old enough to start to understand it, It was really interesting, Because you know, Just each at each developmental stage, They would sort of ask about it. And my, My son, I don't really believe in heaven or anything. But somehow my son, I remember when he was about five, He got this sort of idea of like, Well, You know, He asked me, Well, Where do where do you go after you die? And I said, Well, Some people believe in heaven. And some people believe this or that. And he said to me, Well, If if I died now and went to heaven, Would your mom know who I was? Which made I know. I mean, I just, It made me cry. And I said, What was so cool is not that I believe in heaven, But I was just like, And I said to him, Yes, Absolutely. And, And that's what I believe is like, You know, I do believe that, That, That, That, You know, Even though my mom doesn't know my kids, There's something, You know, There's some spirit of her that that wraps them in her arms, You know, And, And so you know, What I just talked to them all along the way about what it means to die, What it means to be sad about somebody not being in your life. And I don't think it's one conversation. I think that's one mistake we've really made about grief is like, You know, Somebody's dead. And then we talk about that we go to the funeral, And then it's over. I think it's really important to keep talking to your child at five and six and seven and beyond. And, You know, Share your feelings. I think we've made such a mistake and trying to sort of this idea that it protects kids to to not tell them about what we really feel. I think that's really wrong. Now, Obviously, We don't want to be overwhelming them with, You know, So much emotion that they don't know what to do with it. But to be honest about your sorrow, I think is a gift to them, Because it gives them permission to have their own feelings. The hardest talk I did, I give talks about wild. So I mean, I've done it now for years for just so many people. But the hardest one was, I went and talked to my kids elementary school when it first came out. And they were, You know, Like in first and second grade or something. And I was so nervous because I thought, How do I talk to kids who are in like, First through fifth grade, About wild. And what I realized pretty quickly is I just I began, I put a slide up and I said, This is my mom, And she died. And all the kids were just wrapped listening. And, And I told them how sad I was. And so I decided to go for a really long walk. I put it, You know, Down in their language. But what was cool is I didn't at all avoid the topic of death or grief. And those kids so they so understood, They totally got it. And I also think too, Like some of those kids in that room, Probably have lost a parent or had, You know, Some of those were motherless kids. Childhood doesn't protect us from loss. We know that we just pretend it does. So yeah, I would say be lovingly honest and share your own heart with your child. I've got one from Chrissy that says, How do you come to terms with how much your family unit changes after a mom dies? My mom was the glue in our family and everything feels very off. Now. Oh, I'm sorry. My family was utterly destroyed by my mom's death. There was no there's no family now. I'm very sorry that that things feel off. And what I know, After having spoken to now, Like hundreds of 1000s of people about their loss and how that the impact that had on a family is that, You know, Sometimes what happens is it feels off, And things are rocky, And then you find a new language, You find a new way to come together differently. And, You know, That's never it's never going to be the way it was, But it can be different. And it can be beautiful. And, And, And a place that's a safe haven again. And other times, Everything is lost. And, You know, I my family did disintegrate after my mom died. And my stepfather, Who I loved, Like a father married somebody who, You know, Just didn't want me and my brother and sister in there in his life. And it took many, Many, Many years of grieving that. But I but I came out the other end. And that's the thing, You know, I've had to really make my own home in the world, I've had to make my own family in the world. And all the motherless children are part of my family. You know, I realized that, Of course, I have my husband and my kids and my friends, Like those are my family, Family. But I realized that part of the the love I needed to gather around me was available through me, Speaking my heart and telling stories. And, You know, We have to, You know, When when one thing ends, We have to find another thing to nurture us. And so I encourage you to do that no matter what, You know, No matter what it is, Grieve those losses, And then go find something else that sustains you. Yeah, I'll echo that and add on to allowing conversations to be awkward because they will be you will all have different expectations of what this is supposed to look like now. And for the most part, You will all be taking action on that independently. And so there will be times when wires get crossed, Or toes get stepped on, Or things get totally violated from the way that you thought they would work out. And so taking a really deep breath and allowing everyone grace in that situation in terms of here's what I thought would happen. Here's what I didn't think was going to happen. And then here's how it actually rolled out, As well as the really real fears and anxieties that are going to come up. I know, After the loss of my mom, My sister, And I both thought our dad was going to die. And so sitting down with him and being like, This is a very real fear of ours, How can you help us with this? Because it was something that we were really concerned about, We've just seen one parent die. And so it was not irrational to fear losing the other. And so to have those conversations and let them be strange and weird and taboo, Because they are. But but not really pushing forward and having them but having having them anyway, And allowing space for them to be picked up at any time as well. Conversations about grief don't need to be sacred in order to be value. Yeah, Let's see. Kelsey says, Do either of you have a little ritual to honor your mom's on Mother's Day? I usually go get a pizza. The last meal that my mom was able to eat was cheese pizza from one of our local delivery spots in North Carolina. And when she came back, I was dating someone at the time who was very intuitive. And my mother visited her in a dream after she died. And she reported back to me and she said, Your mom says thank you for the pizza. And I was like, You can't have possibly known that. And so almost every anniversary that relates to my mother birthday Mother's Day, The day she died, My birthday is cause for pizza. That's a really fortunate thing. Shelby, I'm jealous. It blows my mind the fact that it happened. I want one of my rituals to be that I that I have to eat pizza. You can make it like no one is there. But it's very connected to my mom's death. This ritual of pizza. I love it. So yeah, I do. I've done different things. There isn't just like one ritual that I do every year. But I always do something like, You know, Sometimes it'll just be like, I've like planted flowers, I've sat by a river or a stream and released things into it and said a prayer, I've done this, Like, You know, I try to say like, How, How can I honor my mother's love. And sometimes it's just a very private thing that I do in my own heart. And sometimes it's planting something to make to make her love to symbolize the, You know, Growth and, And, And rejuvenation and regeneration. And sometimes it's just something like this where I say, Here, Let us tell let us talk about this loss. Let us acknowledge our mothers and let's honor mine by way of doing this. Yeah, I love that too. And permission for it to change every year because sometimes we can't keep them consistent whether we're in quarantine or not. Question from Jessica says, How do you nurture or mother yourself as you get older? I don't know. Any ideas guys? You know, I, You know, I, I, I do try to remember to, To take care, You know, To take care of myself to get to let myself have pleasure and joy and you know, All of the, You know, All of those things, But I, I'm really not in the years yet where I can focus on that so much. I have two teenagers, I have a really busy career, I have, You know, Just a very full life. And part of, You know, I guess part of taking care of myself is actually just like doing that with all my heart, It doesn't feel always like a burden. And to just sort of wrap my arms around the fullness of life right now. I do also love to get my feet massage. I try to get a massage every, You know, Month or so but this has been greatly impacted by social distancing, I need somebody to come over and rub my feet, Maybe I can convince one of my teenagers to do it. Jessica, My response to that is to first believe that you can, Because I think when my mom died, I had this belief that she was the only person who could ever nurture or mother me. And so to first believe that that was something that I was capable of doing was like, Step one for me, Because I didn't even think it was possible. I thought all of that energy came from outside, I didn't yet believe or know how to generate it from within. And then I think it's, It's matured into the years of a very loose phrasing of what would you do? What would you say if she were here? And so especially in these seasons where I'm being really hard on myself or really critical, Or I should be here by now, Or wanting to reach all these milestones and like, Stop? What would your mother say, And every time I do I get this visual of like open arms, Like running for the embrace, It's always here waiting. And so having that picture constantly in my mind, If there are open arms, And they are always available to you, And they belong to your mother is like really cool. And the fact that I can generate that image for myself is really, Really wild. Yeah, Absolutely. I'm gonna see if we can't get one more question in here. Let's see. Let's see, What do you say to those who are struggling to find nurturing after the family falls apart, Following your mom's death? Well, I'm sorry that that happened to you what what I did and what I think the only way through something like that is, You have to go and find beauty wherever you can, You have to walk really, You know, Directly toward light, Love, Beauty, Friendship, You know, Go places that make you feel whole. And that can be, You know, People, It can be friends, It can be other loved ones who are not in your immediate family, It can be a wilderness trail. So much of wild is about exactly that, You know, Where do I find my strength again? How do I remember who I was? How Who am I without not only my mother, But really the family that nurtured me. And you know, That's so much about I think, My instincts, The reason I went on that hike, Were, My instincts were that I needed to go where I felt most whole. And I felt most whole, In in nature, I felt strength, I felt I remembered my power again. And so, You know, My mom used to always say, You know, I guess we can kind of end today with a wonderful sentiment from my mom that that really has carried me through is when I was a teenager and would complain about things or be like, I don't want this or I want that. She'd say, Cheryl, You know, No matter how hard things are, No matter how much you feel bitter or negative about something, I hope every day that you'll put yourself in the way of beauty. There's always a sun rise, And there's always a sunset and it's up to you to choose to be there for it or not. Now, I would roll my eyes at this and be like, Oh, Mom, You know, Always with the positive aphorisms. But a few years later, I was standing there on the Pacific Crest Trail gazing out over endless sunrises and endless sunsets, And feeling the sorrow of her loss, But also feeling that the absolute fullness of my heart, Feeling the fullness of my power, And feeling the fullness of my ability to move forward in my life without my mother and to carry her with me always, Not just with sorrow, But with with strength and light and love and gratitude. And I realized that she was right that she'd given me the tool. She'd given me the path or the way to heal myself. And it was the simple thing. Seek beauty every day, Put yourself in the way of beauty. It, It changed my life, You know, It changed my life to be able to do that. It was the way that I found my myself back to the woman, My brother, My mother had raised me to be. That was the beginning of, Of the next thing for me, Which is the thing that's that the person who's talking to you now, The, You know, Bobby's daughter, Made manifest Bobby's daughter and her full, You know, Her full self, I guess. I literally just wrote down, Death shattered the compass. Love left a map. Oh, That's good. That's good. Wow. Yeah, That's true. That love is the map. Love is for sure the map. And it's really hard sometimes to find it and to trust it. But when you do, You're always led down the right path you really are. Yes. And I think that's just the perfect place to end our call today grief growers watching. This will be available both on YouTube and in podcast form. If you look for coming back conversations on life after loss wherever you get podcasts, To look into more of Cheryl's work Cheryl stray. Com This is a tremendous time to be listening to audio books in quarantine I'm doing quite a bit of it. So wild is a great one but tiny beautiful things is also kind of short chunks of stories which might be a little more digestible in the midst of quarantine. And you can always find my work as well. It shall be for cithia. Com Cheryl, I am so honored for you to have shared space with all of us today and with everyone watching we are in hey, I'm even inhaling right now I'm like we are just taking a deep breath with you in this reality of life that is life after losing a mother. So thank you so much for joining us as part of reimagine end of life's motherless Mother's Day and we're wishing so much love to all of you. Oh, Yes. And thank you, Shelby for having me. And thank you all of you who watched us or listened to us. I really I feel that I am a member of your extended family. I always carry you all in my heart that the love that we have for our mothers bonds us with each other. I know that. And you know, You mentioned wild and tiny beautiful things. But my first book torch the book of my heart. It's a novel. It's fiction. But it's all about all of this about a family in which a mom dies young and how they found their way. So really, It's the story I've told over and over again. I want to thank you for asking me to tell it again here. Thank you so much and everyone we're sending so much love your way. Love to you all happy trails.