Welcome and thanks for listening to Truth Wisdom Freedom Conversations.
Each week I'm joined by various conscious leaders as we discover more pathways in becoming heart-centered human beings.
This is your host,
Author,
And spiritual coach,
Johnson Chung.
Always a pleasure to see you,
Patricia,
And thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Truth Wisdom Freedom Conversations.
So thank you guys who are tuning in live.
I have here Patricia Elwood,
Who is based in Switzerland,
And I love talking to Patricia.
She's always sharing stories that are very mystical and always exciting.
So Patricia is a Jungian psychoanalyst,
And she is also an author,
And we chat about shamanism and about Jungian psychology and about consciousness.
And I was just thinking about you,
Patricia,
And about that time a couple of years ago when we were doing that thing with the connection to the Kozarev mirrors.
Do you remember that?
When you were in Siberia at the institute,
And then we were doing research there with the Russian scientists around consciousness and planetary well-being and prediction and forecasting.
And then I think that's when we started talking about shamanism from that was the entry way.
And I know that you work a lot with shamans,
Especially from the Altai region.
And my lineage in shamanism is very much connected to the Inca.
It's cool to connect with you about shamanism and to talk a little bit about what shamanism is and to get your viewpoints on what it is for you and how it applies to the age that we're living in.
So why don't you start us off and talk a little bit about shamanism and your experience with it,
How you got into it.
Yes,
I think shamanism is recurring spontaneously in the world at the moment.
I think lots of people are,
There's a re-emergence since the 1970s because shamanism had gone underground for many centuries.
Shamans were actually very persecuted people in most cultures.
So shamanism has been revived since the 70s because spontaneously man needs something that shamanism offers.
What shamanism offers essentially is connection.
It's about connection to the soul.
And there are actually two souls.
There's a personal soul and the collective soul.
What we call the anima mundi,
Spiritus mundi.
So the shaman,
He's someone who's connected.
He's connected to nature.
He's connected to the underworld.
He's connected to the overworld.
He's connected to the cosmos.
And the shaman,
He's a mediator between all that.
And of course his belief system is that if he can accumulate enough power to connect with the spirits,
Then he can transpose from the spirit world to our world what man needs to develop,
To progress,
And to be eventually enlightened.
So the shamans are a hard worker.
The shamans I know have worked all their lives with what Castaneda calls intention.
Intention means total focus.
So you can have a total focus on your life path as this shaman does.
And I think in the confusion of the modern world,
Many people are called to that total focus on their path.
You touched on power.
And so maybe we can frame what power means to the shaman because I think the word power is very loaded in the way that we use power.
Because we see,
I think modern people see power as this thing to achieve or to get or to manipulate.
And it can be used for control.
And I'm,
In my viewpoint,
Standing in your true power as a shaman is really being connected to a flow state.
Or what quantum scientists would call to the field.
Or being in communion with source energy,
That infinite potential that has created all of life.
Which allows us to think our thoughts,
To feel our feelings.
For the river to flow and for the rocks to be and for the birds to fly and for us to walk and to build cities.
This is the energy that we're trying to tap into.
And I think that when we think about shamans,
We have this image of someone in tribal traditional wear standing around a fire with feathers and singing to the universe.
And I think to a lot of modern people,
It can be very foreign because it looks very unfamiliar.
However,
When we start to dive deeper into those practices and we can find commonalities and ways to apply these ritualistic traditions into our daily life,
That's when we start to shift.
And it's really about not what it looks like on the outside because there's so many modern shamans now,
Urban shamans popping up everywhere doing a lot of energy work.
And really,
Shaman is the way,
It's the one,
It's our ability to,
Like you said,
To connect to non-ordinary states of consciousness.
And I think it's a beautiful practice.
So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about some of the stories from the Altai region with the wolf clans that you've worked with.
Because I think across the board though,
The practices are different across many traditions.
The essence of it is all the same.
It's really about connecting back to source.
It doesn't matter what the rituals look like.
And I know you have brilliant stories about the shamans that you work with.
You had one in particular who just came to work with you in Switzerland before COVID happened,
Right?
Who just came from the Altai region.
He came from the Altai region,
Yes.
He's been here five times.
Well,
How to answer all that?
Begin with power.
Power is not of the ego,
Of course.
Power is grace.
So for example,
Someone comes to a shaman for healing.
So the shaman opens the field,
Opens the sphere,
Connects with his ally spirits,
Healing spirits.
And if grace comes in,
Then that's power.
Power to heal.
But it's always based on grace.
It's like anything.
It can be about anything.
It can be about forgiveness.
You need to forgive the neighbor for what he does.
So a shaman would look at what is the hook in me that creates that relationship to the neighbor.
And maybe it's simply that I lack personal power.
So personal power is alignment.
And practicing alignment brings in a sense of personal power.
And it's always grace.
So it's not of the ego.
It comes out of collaboration with the other spheres.
It comes out of this sense of collaboration.
For me,
Shamanism,
I suppose it was always there.
I think the whole world was once shamanistic.
I think every civilization was basically shamanistic.
I think every civilization was connected to the other spheres.
In their mythology,
In their religious practices.
We've lost the link definitely since the age of enlightenment.
Middle of the 18th century.
Since everything had to be rational and practical and proven and so on.
Concrete.
Superstition was condemned and intuition was condemned.
And anything that wasn't visible and concrete was devalued.
So yes,
Power is about grace.
The basic aim is the result.
I want to heal.
I want to help.
I want to resolve the problem with the neighbor.
So the basic intention includes prayer.
Shamanic prayer is about,
I imagine the neighbor as my friend.
But it's a visualization.
Shamans pray in visualization.
This is very much in alignment with a lot of what Zen meditators do.
It's like setting the intention and what you intend and what you can see.
If you can't see it,
It's not going to materialize before you.
And so if you can instead of pray for rain,
But to pray rain.
To become rain.
Instead of pray for money,
Pray money.
This is something that pray for abundance,
Pray abundance.
Be come in.
This is very much the essence of prayer.
And I think that as you were talking about shamanism being the essence of all world cultures and civilization.
I think about when I grew up and how it was very much a part of my culture.
Because in Eastern traditions,
In Chinese culture,
There is a lot of respect to the ancestors.
We have an ancestral altar at home.
You pay respects to the land spirits and to the sky spirits.
And you also pay respect to your elders and your ancestors.
There was also constant daily prayer that my father did and giving offerings.
There's also this ritualistic offering that I was always witnessing as a child.
And so when I became initiated in the Munay Ki and also in the Incan lineages of shamanic ritual and ceremony and journeying.
It was all very familiar to me because deep down I was like,
Oh,
I know this.
This is this is an outward show of reverence.
This is how I offer my love to what is below me,
What is above me.
And then to those around me,
Including our neighbors who are perhaps our enemy or we're not getting along with them.
And I love that archetype.
You said,
You know,
Love thy neighbor,
Neighbor,
Meaning anyone,
Really anyone who comes into contact with you is a beautiful thing to to ritualize,
To ceremonialize,
To celebrate life through through that.
So that brings me to the next point about rites of passage,
Because,
You know,
You're really big into rites of passages.
And so am I.
And as we look around us,
Lots of these rites are not they're not happening because we're moving at such a quick pace.
And so,
You know,
For example,
There's like purity that's oftentimes shamed.
Like you feel a lot of shame around that versus being celebrated in a lot of traditional societies.
There's there's a rite of passage to either celebrate the moment when a man becomes a boy becomes a man or a girl becomes a woman versus don't tell anyone about this or keep it hush hush.
And this is something that we've forgotten,
It seems.
There's also there's many rites of passages.
Maybe you can talk a little bit and share about,
You know,
How how you feel.
Rites of passages can be healing for the time that we're living in right now.
And I know you wanted to talk a little bit about the rites of passage that we're currently going through.
So let's start from,
You know,
There.
We've just been through a rite of passage.
COVID virus proposed a rite of passage.
The rites of passage basically were described by Arnold van Genup in 1913.
He named this process as rite of passage.
And having witnessed so many indigenous cultures,
He understood that there are three basic stages.
And the first stage is separation.
And COVID-19 proposed a huge planetary separation with our collective spin and our collective rush and everything that was going on.
And then the second phase is the liminal phase.
It's the phase of stopping,
Of being still.
And in that phase there's transformation,
But it requires focus,
It requires intention,
It requires consciousness.
Mostly collectively,
People didn't know that we were in a rite of passage,
But many felt it.
Many felt stopping was very real for them.
Many felt that the stopping happened on every level.
Many felt that real transformation was going on in that time.
So that second phase is the liminal phase.
I suggested to people to find a symbol for that phase,
Because the symbol is food for the psyche.
The symbol is a transformer of energy.
So focusing on the symbol,
The symbol has its own capacity to transform.
And then the third stage is re-emergence.
And that's what we're going through now here.
I suppose you're going through that too in Australia,
Re-emergence.
Things are coming back differently for many people.
We've also lived through this polarity of life and death.
There's been many deaths,
Not only of coronavirus,
But of a variety of illnesses or mishaps in life.
So yes,
Rites of passage,
We've been through one collectively.
We don't maintain ritualistically a system in our society for offering rites of passage,
But rites of passage are natural in the psyche.
Rites of passage happen on their own within the psyche.
Jung calls it the transcendent function,
When you transcend from one state to another state.
And actually,
If one pays attention to their own unconscious,
They discover that they have been through a stage of separation,
A liminal phase,
And a phase of re-emergence.
And it's always beautiful when it happens.
It's always positive.
Yeah,
And of course,
From the outside,
It looks like,
And it appears like we're dying physically,
And it can appear really real.
And so by doing a rites of passage,
We can metaphorically,
Energetically let go of that which we no longer need without actually having to physically in the 3D world perish.
And this is very much,
I feel that all rites of passages actually,
I don't know if you feel this way,
Is a death of some sort.
Whether it's a death of an ego or a death of an old version of self,
A death of a role that we have been embodying,
Like when we were talking about the transition from innocence to adolescence,
It's the death of the purity of child.
And then we're moving into young adulthood,
And then into adulthood,
And then moving into marriage.
I mean,
You look at marriage,
That whole thing,
The way marriage is,
It really is,
There's a death of the role of who you once were,
And now you're moving into union.
Right?
So in a way,
There's always a little bit of death and letting go in everything.
And then of course,
We know the biggest rite of passage,
Which is actual death,
And then there's a funeral,
And there's a passage into the next realm.
And then of course,
There's everything in between,
You know,
The moment we lose our job or we change our dreams,
And we want to become something else now in this life.
We're taking on a new chapter.
And what we forget to do is that we forget to ritualize and to create an experience where we can honor,
Give thanks,
Let go with grace,
All that was,
So that we can move forward.
And I think something that's super,
Super simple that we can all do,
That's very practical that the shamans do,
And this is something also the yogis do,
Is the fire ceremony.
And this is something that,
Yes,
Okay,
If you're like me and then urban environment,
You can't do a big bonfire,
But you can have a small candle,
Make offerings and burnable objects,
Like it could be a toothpick,
Or writing things on paper.
This is an exercise I take people through a lot when we're shedding things away from us in our psyche,
Because a lot of it's psychological and you have to feel it in order to heal it.
And if we can leave that story into the flames and let it transform,
That's when those shifts start to happen in us internally.
Or maybe you don't like to write,
Maybe you just want to take a twig or something and blow that issue or whatever it is that's coming up unconsciously and send it off into the flames.
And that's a super simple practice.
Of course,
If you're doing it in a full-blown way,
There's ritual and music and dancing and there's even art,
Right?
And these are beautiful ways to celebrate the letting go,
The dying,
The surrendering,
So we can move forward.
So that's something I would offer out there to people who are looking for something practical to do.
And if you just practice that every day or once a week or something,
You might start to notice some meaningful shifts.
Someone here in the chat is asking,
Annalisa is saying she's interested in if you have written anything about COVID as a right.
That's not really a full question,
But yeah,
Maybe you can speak more about COVID as a right.
Just coming back to the fire.
Fire is a transformer and fire promises transformation.
But when you burn something in the fire,
As you say,
You have to live the burning.
It doesn't come from the thought.
I can say,
OK,
I want to get rid of something.
It's not just a thought.
I am burning it in the fire at the same time.
And as you say,
I feel it.
I'm feeling it and living it.
I am the flame.
That is shamanism.
I am the flame.
It's a symbiosis with the transforming power of the fire.
So it's entering into symbiosis.
It's entering into that sphere.
And then it's grace.
Grace comes in because if it's a thought process,
OK,
I want to change something and I light a fire and I burn it in my candle.
It's not sufficient.
I have to burn with the flame of the candle.
That's induction.
That's symbiosis.
That's participation.
Shamanism requires participation and participation is a deep focus and a deep intention.
And yes,
You spoke of death.
Well,
Death.
You know,
All these megalithic tombs that we have across all of Europe with these symbols on the stones.
This comes from Newgrange in Ireland.
It's 3500 B.
C.
It's older than the pyramids of Egypt.
So before they used to think that these were sun symbols,
But they are not sun symbols.
They are symbols of the vortex.
And the vortex is what one goes through to get into an altered state of consciousness.
It's the spiral.
It's the spiral.
When you walk into the tomb,
There's always a spiral on the wall at the side.
And that means that these people have gone through the vortex into the other sacred space.
And you find these symbols on every megalithic tomb,
Whether it be here or there or anywhere else,
Because these are symbols of going through the vortex and altered states of consciousness means shifting consciousness.
And there is a process in that.
The first process is what we call entoptics.
You see flashes and you see spirals and you see zigzags behind the eyes.
And then the mind attempts to take a zigzag and construe,
Make it into a snake or something.
But the mind's power is only relative at that stage.
And then there comes the vortex,
Which is the field that's spinning with very powerful energy.
And it's like in a dream.
People see the light on the other side of the door and they wake up just before they go through.
And the vortex does something as well.
People sort of stop before they go through.
We had a seminar and there was a doctor there who said,
Oh,
You mean I should have gone through?
I said,
Yes,
You should have gone through.
So because these are moments of grace,
Too,
It's why people look for drugs to open the door,
Open that sphere.
It doesn't always work because shamans have a culture and a gene for the drugs that they use culturally.
The American Indians use payouts.
The Mexicans use Mescalito.
Not everybody uses psychotropic drugs at all.
But because if one is used to connecting with one's unconscious,
Then these states can happen spontaneously.
And it's felt like a death.
That's why people get scared because they're losing the ego.
We're losing what's familiar and what we've known all along.
And so,
You know,
As you're talking about using psychotropic drugs,
I myself have done a few.
And when I have gone into ceremony with plant medicine,
Yeah,
It does feel like you're spiraling down a rabbit hole.
And all the different parts of who you thought you were,
If you try to cling on to it as you're going down that spiral,
It hurts quite a bit.
It's quite painful.
But if you let go and you go into that spiral,
Sometimes it's spiraling down into an emptiness.
Sometimes it's a light through the door,
Light at the end of the tunnel.
There's always some sort of portal that takes you to a different dimension.
And it's symbolic in how we perceive it in whatever current state,
That mental emotional state we're in.
Whatever symbology resonates within your culture,
Your personal,
You know,
Your whole timeline and your history.
And what's really fascinating is that it doesn't matter what psychotropic experience you're partaking in.
There's going to be a rise and a fall.
And it always follows this spiral.
I mean,
It takes you to a different place from where you started.
And I think we don't need psychotropic drugs to get to this experience as you're talking about.
And I've had these experiences without psychotropic drugs.
And so I know that it's possible to achieve that state without the influence of that.
And I think sometimes people are looking to shamanism for plant medicine.
And shamanism is very much associated with plant medicine nowadays.
And that itself could be a bit of a crutch because people can become addicted to just looking for this state,
This high.
Versus realizing that that high,
That experience itself is not the point.
That just happens to be something you find along the way.
And the point really is to illuminate and to awaken to the fact that we are all connected to the source,
To each other,
To nature.
And then to ground that into our lives.
And how does that play out in our relationships?
I've definitely encountered people who are just looking for that experience.
And then they come back to their lives and their relationships are a mess.
Their finances are a mess.
Their life itself is in shambles.
But they're still looking and seeking for these experiences.
And so I think it really comes back down to intention,
What you were saying.
It's like you can create a ritual,
Right?
You can do something ritualistic just with your mind.
But it will have,
If you're not feeling it,
If you're not being it in ritual,
You're not participating with it,
That's it.
There's no point,
Right?
And the same thing with these non-ordinary states of consciousness.
If we arrive there with recreational intent,
It's very different from if you're going into it with a,
I'm coming in to transform something really big so that I can take more responsibility for my life.
I think that's what's really key about whatever rite of passage people are deciding to choose.
Whether you decide to go to a plant medicine ceremony or you're choosing to burn things away at a candle or to a full moon ceremony or whatever it is.
It's that intention of taking responsibility.
That's really key.
And then Shambles is a life path.
It's a life practice.
The first precept in shamanism is impeccability.
So there's an impeccability in your intention.
It has to be with the meaning for your soul and the soul of the world at the same time.
It's not a selfish concept at all,
Impeccability.
And of course,
Well,
I'm a youngie and Young was a shaman,
There's no doubt for me.
He met several spirits in his journey through the unconscious.
He never took drugs.
He had one specific spirit,
Philemon,
Whom he painted on the wall of his bedroom.
And Philemon was actually a spirit who taught him.
He learned from Philemon things that he didn't know.
And Philemon was a spirit teacher.
And then later on in life,
He met a guru from India who also had a teacher who was a spirit.
So he had that confirmation.
Sometimes once he was sculpting in stone and he met another spirit that just came out of the stone.
But he never took drugs because the unconscious is the way.
If people go into shamanic practices and their link with the unconscious is not prepared,
Then of course it can be either meaningless or be even a bad experience.
I had a friend who went to the Amazon basin and took a luasca for 15 days and all she did was get sick.
She didn't have any visions.
So it's about being prepared,
But being prepared all your life.
It's a path.
Jung promises that when you contact the unconscious,
Of course,
The ordinary dreams,
The first level.
That's the personal unconscious for the shaman,
It's ordinary dreams.
Then there's the collective unconscious for the shaman that's equivalent to the big dreams.
Then there's archetypal experiences.
These are experiences outside of your personal sphere.
There are messages,
Personal and collective messages.
And then you have the zone of no man's land,
The void,
The land of the ancestors,
The void.
And then you have the sphere of visions.
And you don't need drugs,
But you need intention and you need practice.
And you need motivation,
Willingness,
Because you know,
If the outside's a mess,
The outside's a mess.
And the collective,
People don't know how to become orientated with what's given on the outside.
So they have to look for inner orientation.
It's an invitation to look for inner orientation.
So yeah,
Shamanism proposes a lot.
There's a lot of pop shamans,
You know,
People who name themselves shamans.
For me,
A shaman,
All the shamans I've met have been chosen.
Chosen by nature herself.
I've met shamans in the Arctic.
I've met shamans in Siberia.
I've met a shaman on the southern Chinese border.
He was a Hmong shaman.
And he was a very powerful shaman.
He created an energy field that you could feel.
And you could feel it intensely.
And his first invitation was a soul reading.
He could read your soul.
And that was a huge surprise.
The authenticity of what he was saying,
Coming from someone you've never seen before in your life.
I was also with a guide who was a young boy.
And when we left on our journey,
He was a boy.
When he came back from his journey,
From our journey,
He was a man.
There's no doubt.
But the Hmong shaman didn't look for fame.
Didn't look for recognition.
Didn't need it.
He had recognition from the spirits.
He was actually in the service of a major spirit called Buzi.
And Buzi had 42 serving spirits.
So the shaman had to manage all that energy,
Which was incredible.
And it was the patriarchal society.
So he had 12 assistants when he went to the sacred place.
But because it was patriarchal,
I went with him along.
And yes,
You can feel the power in the earth.
You can feel the power in the cosmos.
You can feel the field that he is opening.
And it's a gift.
It's a very wonderful experience.
But what does it serve?
It has to serve to widen your perception.
To make you conscious that everything around you is alive.
The stone is alive.
The earth is alive.
The trees are alive.
The other evening there was a program on silver therapy.
It means bringing people who are depressed or ill to the forest.
And getting them to absorb the energy of the forest.
And then to see how they feel afterwards.
And all these people had a chance for information.
Just feeling with intention,
Feeling the energy of what's alive.
In the essence of Mother Earth,
Mother Nature.
So that's the very first shamanic practice that everyone can do.
Feeling the energy.
The energy is there.
Just click into it.
It's like what you're saying.
It's changing our perceptual state of what we think reality is.
And tuning into what reality really is.
And how this plays out.
How does this even play out for modern people?
That's the question.
How do we apply the essence of shamanism in conscious leadership?
In the corporate world?
In cities?
How do you do that?
This is a question that is important to ask because we see a movement happening around the world.
Where people are looking for something.
They're on a soul search.
And so they go to yoga,
They go to meditation,
They go to yoga and psychology,
They're exploring qigong,
They're exploring shamanism,
Plant medicine.
There's so much.
And all of these different modalities are really pointing back to simplicity.
To quieting down the mind.
To tuning into what you're feeling.
What you're sensing.
Not just with your five senses,
But from beyond those senses.
What are you intuitively connecting to in your dreams or turning to your dreams again?
These are all the principles of communism.
And then becoming a steward of the land.
Taking care of the earth.
That's a big thing.
And then when your perception changes,
You naturally want to take care of everything that is living.
It all starts with the self.
When we make that shift in the self and everything around us.
It's super holy and it's important.
It's sacred.
So you want to revere it and honor it.
So this is.
.
.
What do we do?
What do we do as modern people?
For everyone there's a path.
Everything is useful.
But hopping from one thing to the other is not the solution.
One has to.
.
.
Part of the quest is to find one's path.
Maybe it's yoga.
Maybe it's Qigong.
Maybe it's Tai Chi.
Maybe it doesn't matter.
But you have to find what's specifically compatible for you.
For conscious leadership it's the same thing.
It's about focus and tension.
What is the intention in the leadership?
What are we leading to?
What are we leading for?
Who are we leading?
What do they need?
Those we are leading.
What are they asking for?
Because collectively they are asking for a lot.
They're asking for security.
They're asking for orientation.
How can we give security and orientation?
We can't give security through promises.
We can't through methods and techniques.
We can only give security through alignment.
And alignment means that you can face anything.
Whatever comes up.
Because we're in a changing world.
And it's changing fast.
And it's never changed like this.
We were talking with the young people.
They were saying,
Yes,
We don't know where we're going.
When I was young we didn't know where we were going.
It was easy.
You could go to university and choose anything you liked.
Everything was valuable.
Everything was okay.
But today there's a neurosis.
You have to be an economist or a lawyer.
There's a neurosis about it.
So what's a leader's true intention?
If a leader just focuses on his true intention he'll find it.
There's always a response.
And that's something that Jung promises.
When the ego connects with the unconscious there's always a response.
You may go to the forest and get steeped in all the essence of the forest.
And it may happen later in your dreams,
In the night.
It may not just happen at the moment that you want it.
But there is always a response.
And we're not taught that either.
But there is always a response.
What are leaders,
What are they leading?
Who are they leading?
What are they leading for?
Everybody wants higher consciousness.
Everybody wants expanded perception.
Everybody wants relief from the stress of an ego that's too focused,
Desperately focused on the need.
The need to be someone.
The need to get rich.
The need.
But everybody is fundamentally looking for a wider perception.
A different kind of orientation.
You see,
Money is also ephemeral.
What's here today can be gone tomorrow.
People are terrified of that.
People are terrified of economic crash.
When I was in Russia in the 90s the ruble had dropped to zero.
There was no money.
And it wasn't an exchange anymore because there wasn't any.
It was taking care,
One of the other.
It was a wonderful experience with the people of the land.
We crossed the steppes of Russia.
We did 6000 kilometers.
And we met this kindness everywhere.
Even in the military.
We met this kindness everywhere.
Money was not the exchange anymore.
It was something else.
So yeah,
We have to drop the fear of losing what we have.
Because what we have may just be spontaneously stripped away because that's what the cosmos wants.
We don't control that.
But we control our intention.
We control our desire.
We control our desire to be impeccable with our intention.
We have a participation.
Then we take what comes.
Maybe an altered state of consciousness.
These things can happen spontaneously.
I had a man who came to my practice one evening and he told me how rich he was,
How great he was,
How beautiful his home was,
How wonderful his children were.
And he gave me that for an hour.
At the end of an hour,
He said,
Well madam,
What do you think?
And I said,
Well,
I think you need a good banana skin.
And he was very angry.
He left.
That was a Monday evening at seven o'clock.
Wednesday evening at eight o'clock,
He phoned me.
He said,
Madam,
Madam,
When can I see you?
I have to see you immediately.
I said,
Where are you?
He said,
I'm in Zurich.
I was in Lausanne.
So immediately it wasn't possible because he was two hours away.
I said,
What's happening?
He said,
I'm in my car but there are colored rainbows turning around me all over and I can't see anything else.
And he was in a state of panic and he was actually slipping into an altered state of consciousness.
So I said,
Just park your car and stay where you are.
Just stay.
Stay still.
And I saw him the next morning and he was a very changed person and he went through an analytical process that was beautiful.
So yes,
These things can happen spontaneously.
He wasn't a man who was interested in drugs.
He never took anything.
But it happened.
Why did it happen?
I don't know.
These are gifts.
These are gifts.
Yeah,
That can be quite frightening if people are having spontaneous non-ordinary states of consciousness unfolding in the moment and they're driving.
This guy was driving and you start seeing things.
Yeah,
I for sure have experienced this with other people.
And I think the way that I'm wired and the way that the kind of work that I've done,
I can anchor pretty big energy in through my physicality.
So I don't get spun out of control so easily.
However,
For people that don't have a background of building up their physical capacity to handle loads and loads of energy,
It can be quite a jolt system and very disorientating.
And if it happens spontaneously and you have,
That's not even something you're looking for.
I remember I had a very spontaneous experience when I was 18,
19.
And that was when I experienced my first time in timelessness.
And this is something that the shamans talk about infinity time space being warped and you don't really have a perception of what 3D time space looks like.
Everything stops almost in a sense.
And it felt like the sky split open and I had this massive download.
Everyone's calling it a download these days,
But that's what it felt like.
It felt like all of a sudden I knew everything that I needed to know about where I was going to go next.
And then I was in the wrong place,
Going down the wrong path,
Not at the right school,
Not doing the right thing.
And I made a complete 180 degree turn and transferred universities because I was somewhere where I wasn't supposed to be.
And I couldn't see my future where I was.
And I remember looking outside at the fields and I was in a very rural place in upstate New York.
I was just asking,
You know,
And I was very atheist at the time.
So I was I don't know who I was asking.
Right.
It was like a young 18 year old just asking for some sort of guidance.
Where am I going?
What am I doing?
What am I studying?
It was just a very simple question of purpose.
And everyone has this question.
What the hell am I doing?
Where am I going?
You know,
What do I want to be in life?
And and the answer came and the sky split open.
It was almost like a Lion King moment with rays of light coming down and everything stopped.
I was literally in my room with my friend and she froze like it literally was everything around me froze.
And I was like,
What is happening?
And it seemed like forever.
And then I got the information and then boom,
Time continued on.
And then everything resumed.
You know,
My friend started talking again.
It was a very surreal experience.
It felt like,
You know,
I was in the movies.
I analyzed it and I'm like,
What was that?
And of course,
I forced myself to disbelieve what had just happened.
But from that moment on,
That's when everything started to shift in very radical ways.
The kinds of people I was meeting,
Being pushed in the directions that I was going in,
Ending up going on a completely different path that I had not anticipated.
And so,
Yeah,
So I mean,
These things do happen to people.
And I think it's important for people to know if they've not had these divine intercessions from source coming in and going boom,
That,
You know,
Don't overanalyze it.
Just go with it.
Because the moment you try to bring logic into it,
It just doesn't work.
It doesn't fit in the same.
You can't use an analytical process when you're going through an energetic experience.
Just go with it.
Yes.
You know,
Many of the saints had apparitions or visions and then they come back to normality and they spend the rest of their lives praying and training and attempting to reattain what they had in these states of vision or ecstasy.
It is like you said,
Like being in the movies.
Yes,
That's a good analogy.
It's like it is a dream world.
Time and space don't exist in that sphere.
Time and space are actually only in the sphere where our mind is linked to matter.
The mind linked to matter creates time and space simply because we can't do everything all at once.
So we do things one after the other and that creates space and time.
But in that sphere,
No,
There's no concept of time and space.
That's why in the KOSY REV mirrors,
For example,
In Russia,
It's a machine,
Call it a machine,
That takes away the electromagnetic field.
And when there's no electromagnetic field,
Then there's no time and space.
So in that sphere,
You go to the movies and you see what you see.
And I think I have never asked Alexander if anyone ever had a bad experience.
I don't know.
He is very selective.
It's not a thing for tourists.
He is a scientist.
They do amazing things with those mirrors,
For example,
Predictions on what will happen in the planet.
I remember when you called Andrew back in 2017 and you said,
Hey,
I'm participating in this Russian science experiment with consciousness and the KOSY REV mirrors,
And they're taking away our electromagnetic fields.
And can you and Johnson tune into my field so we can go and look into the future,
Moving through the barriers of time and space to look at catastrophes that are going to happen on the planet?
And I was like,
Cool,
I'm down.
Let's do it.
And I remember tuning into your field when you were in the KOSY REV mirrors.
And it was like at four thirty in the morning.
I was in India.
I remember this very clearly.
And it was very intense.
It was it was instant.
And I was taken through this tunnel,
This vortex.
And it was it felt like I was there for 100 years,
10 seconds.
I don't even know.
And all of these scenes that were playing out and I was looking for dates because,
You know,
The whole intention of the experiment was to look for dates that catastrophes that were going to happen in 2018.
And then they were recording all of this.
And you guys were compiling a list of data to compare from other people around the world who were tuning into your field.
So that was,
You know,
I remember that very vividly.
That was that was pretty cool.
Yes,
We opened this year and many people,
Like 20 people in different parts of the world,
18 of them did have an experience.
Yes.
And some people had the experience just before.
Some during.
And some continued afterwards for quite a long time,
For several hours.
I had a girl in my practice where it just kept going on and on and on.
And she journeyed with it.
It was wonderful.
Yes.
So I had actually read a book in the 90s about a psychiatrist who went to the Altai region and she went through a shamanic journey.
But she came back to Novosibirsk and she hadn't finished her shamanic journey.
So she went to the Institute of Physics and she asked this professor of physics to go into a machine that he had invented that takes away time and space.
So she did.
And in that machine,
She finished her journey.
So then I wrote to this professor of physics and I said to him,
I would like to come and visit your institute.
And then I had a colleague of mine.
I met him in Bern.
We were having lunch and I was talking about this experience and he was actually drawing the machine on the tablecloth in the bistro.
And I said,
How do you know about this machine?
And he said,
I've just come out of it.
I said,
How's that?
He said,
Yes,
There's one copy in the world.
It's in Schwellen in Germany.
So we made an appointment to go to Schwellen in Germany.
And when we left the table,
He went into a bookshop.
And the book I was talking about when he opened the door was standing there right in front of the door.
So then we went to Schwellen and we visited this time and space phenomena in the cozy rev mirrors.
And then 20 years later,
I was in Siberia and someone said to me,
Yes.
So there's someone in Novosibirsk who's interested in Youngkin analyst and so on.
And we met.
So something had actually connected,
I'd connected with 20 years earlier and that we actualized 20 years later spontaneously.
So,
Yes,
Of course,
I have to say,
If one looks up cozy rev himself in the Internet and finds his story,
It's an exceptionally moving story.
He's an exceptionally spiritual man.
He spent twice 10 years in the Gulag in the camps and over and beyond all that,
He kept his intention about consciousness,
Planetary consciousness.
And it's a very beautiful story.
I recommend that people do look up cozy rev.
Then there was Kaznecev,
Who was his inheritor and who recomposed the mirrors with Alexander Trofimov in his Rekha in Novosibirsk.
And that continues today.
They do extraordinary things.
They do diagnosis in vitro,
In utero before birth.
They purify water through a hologram where the water is completely pure.
They can connect beyond time and space instantaneously in other parts of the world.
So,
Yes,
There's lots of things going on in Russia that are very interesting and which are scientifically and psychologically based.
But yes,
Everything synchronously.
The experiments are verifying from a scientific lens what the shamans have been doing for thousands of years.
Yes,
Exactly.
And everything comes to me.
The scientists are interested in the other dimensions.
I've met a group of Nobel Prize winners in mathematics.
And when we sat down at the table,
They weren't talking about mathematics.
They were talking about the spiritual spheres because mathematics are magical.
And when you get to a certain point in maths,
You automatically tip over into a wider dimension.
And scientists too,
Many scientists,
Astrophysicians,
They're looking for widening their consciousness.
That's for sure.
So,
Yes,
We live in a wonderful world.
I don't know how much we know it,
But we live in a beautiful world.
We live on a beautiful planet.
And I think you said the very key word is reverence.
And if we can cultivate that deep,
Authentic,
Extraordinary reverence that the true shaman has,
Then that's all we need.
Just that pure,
Authentic reverence.
Beautiful.
Well,
Thank you so much for all of your sharing and your stories.
I can listen to your stories for hours.
And we can definitely go into a story time.
That's a different time.
We should organize a group and take them to Novosibirsk into the Khuzur-e Mirazim and have them strip away space-time from their electromagnetic fields and journey inwards and come out as new people.
It's certainly possible to ask.
And Alexander did say that,
Yes,
I could bring a group.
We met in Italy last year.
We met in Paris last year.
Of course,
Things have been on a freeze with Covid.
But yes,
Connect with them and see what we can do.
Amazing.
Yes.
Well,
Let's see you,
Johnson.
Thank you so much.
It's always a pleasure to be with you.
Always a pleasure to see and speak with you as well.
I will talk with you soon.
