010 Om Rupani: When "Social Justice" Increases Permission To Hate

Om Rupani is a teacher of sexuality. Here, he speaks about the current conversation around masculinity and the hate around social justices going on.

Please note: This track may contain explicit language.

Transcript

This is a more political episode than I usually go into.

It's Omar Pani,

He's been on before.

He's a domination submission instructor and intimacy instructor in New York City.

And he reached out to me recently,

Actually literally yesterday,

Sending me some clips about people talking about masculinity.

It's been a big topic with like a lot of the social justice warrior discussions and then in Charlottesville.

I mean,

All of this like super left,

Super right,

Hate going back and forth,

But specifically talking about the situation going on with masculinity right now.

I brought up a case where I've been meeting young men who are ashamed of their own masculinity.

It's kind of a weird time to be a man in 2017 and a lot of young men are confused about it.

A lot of older men are confused about it.

So we have a candid discussion about what's going on with the conversation around masculinity.

And also a lot of the hate versus social justice speech is going on.

It's a fun episode.

Episode 10,

Omar Pani,

Decline of Masculinity.

You're listening to the Rwanda podcast,

Perpetual orgasm,

Infinite play.

Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show.

Going well.

I just started the recording.

Okay,

Cool.

Thanks for learning this technology here.

How's everything?

Pretty good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I didn't,

I didn't listen to the last two clips you sent me,

But I did watch the other ones.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was surprised to find so many women speaking about the topic.

I mean,

Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised,

But.

I think there's still,

You know,

There,

It's good to hear women's perspective on it because it kind of takes you out of the narrative that this is a man against woman,

Woman against a man thing.

There's some phenomena going on about some boiling up of resentment towards masculinity and it's kind of really,

It's not a great energy.

And even women are observing like,

This is crazy.

This doesn't make any sense.

This is going overboard.

This is distorted.

Once it gets that distorted,

Hopefully all human beings can look at it and say,

That's distorted.

That's not clear.

You are charged up,

You're triggered and you're not seeing things clearly and you're not seeing people clearly.

Yeah.

I don't know if there ever will be the case that will ever be the case where everyone sees it clearly,

Especially with like the gender issue.

And I actually felt that after watching,

I forget their names was two women speaking about how like masculinity is being shamed.

And they were speaking very positively of men,

But I felt like even they were like using these generalities,

Generalizations of like how men are great.

I was like,

I don't even agree with that.

I'm a man.

I don't remember the situation.

Well,

I think at least they're in a more soft space.

They're in a softer space with masculinity and that's kind of good to see.

But yeah,

And just observing the phenomenon.

I mean,

I've been having conversations with people,

You know,

Through my coaching and just talking,

I have friends all over the place,

I have friends on the West Coast.

Things I'm hearing from them are like,

They're startling to me,

What's going on in the culture.

It's weird.

I feel even sitting in New York,

We're not in touch with the core of the energy of how anti-male,

How much anger towards male,

How much down with men.

There is a race element,

You know,

The core message of the progressive left is down with the white man,

But right behind that is down with all men.

And then it's down with straight men.

I'm like,

Okay.

Yeah.

Crazy stories.

I'm not going to,

I don't want to put my friend on the line,

But I think I can share her story without giving you her name.

She was looking for,

She lives in Oakland.

She was looking for a place to live recently.

And she is,

She's a sex educator.

She's one of the most open people you will ever meet.

And she is like looking with a house with all lesbians,

Queer people.

And she's,

She's like,

She had to think she had a male friend she was bringing along when she was out something searching for a new place.

And she's like,

I had to stop and think whether I should actually bring a male friend with me into this house because simply having a man with me might reduce the odds that this all female household would not want me in their house because I have a man.

She associates with a man?

Yeah.

Not that I'm like,

That's crazy.

I think that's a level of crazy.

Yeah.

It's actually,

Well,

I was just talking with a friend of ours.

She's a lesbian mostly,

But once in a while she sleeps with men and she said she got excommunicated from the lesbian community of women that she used to spend time with because she sleeps with men once in a movie.

I've heard that narrative multiple times and not,

You know,

I mean,

When they mean excommunicated,

It may sound a little flip,

But it's,

It's hurtful.

Friends writing off friends,

Friends saying,

I can't hang out with you anymore.

Don't come to my house.

I don't,

Don't refer to yourself as queer anymore because you're a liar,

You're a poser.

And you know,

All of that,

There are many,

Many things going on here,

But I think what prompted our conversation was at the core of it,

There is this amazing hostility towards the masculine,

That certainly being straight,

Loving men,

Standing up for men is not earning any women any social points these days.

It's like,

It's like,

It's like they have to write the men off in their life.

There's another crazy story.

I can't believe the crap that's coming my way.

This is a personal story.

This is a dear,

Dear friend of mine.

I'm not going to name her either.

She lives in Seattle.

This friend of mine in Seattle kind of confessed to me that she and her dear friend,

Both of whom were straight women,

Are kind of pretending to be in a lesbian relationship because it gives them cover in the culture in Seattle because being lesbian is like,

You get more points than being a straight woman and being a straight white woman kind of lowers your status even more.

So if you're a straight white woman,

But you're gay,

You're kind of okay.

And I'm like,

Has everybody gone batshit crazy?

I mean,

This is not normal.

This is,

This is not,

We're not talking about,

You know,

Creating this narrative for like one or two weird friends with extreme views.

We're talking about,

This is the way they feel the community and the culture of Seattle is more accepting of them.

If they simply use each other as lesbian beards,

Then simply say we are two straight white women roommates and we like men.

And I'm like,

Some,

Something has gone off the rails.

I don't even,

Yeah.

Well,

It's like the social justice movement has been very successful and effective in making,

Like they've celebrated marginalized groups to the point where now you want to be one so that you don't get attacked.

Like it's only cool if you're being attacked by other people,

Like these hate groups.

Yeah.

And the fact that,

You know,

It isn't,

You know,

It isn't like to say we want to celebrate a group that has not been celebrated in the past.

If you,

If for a positive movement like that,

I'm like,

Go for it.

You know,

By all means,

Celebrate those people who have not been celebrated before,

Put more attention on cultures that have been marginalized before.

But that is not the energy behind these happenings,

But the energy behind it is a punishing energy.

The energy behind it is a hugely censoring energy.

Like we will cut you down.

We will excommunicate you to literally use that word.

Like they're the Pope or something.

We'll excommunicate you from our community.

You will not have a say in our,

Any community you're a part of if you're in a decision-making process.

In her case,

They are in drama.

So they were in theater.

So they're in some certain groups and they decide which place to put on and things like that.

And they're like,

You won't be part of the conversation because your opinion doesn't count because you're just a straight white woman.

And who cares about straight white women?

Forget about men.

They don't even want men in the room.

Yeah.

Or even if you associate with men,

I'm like,

What is going on?

Are we like in some gulag times?

Well,

It's an interesting thing where,

Cause all these groups,

These marginalized groups are minorities,

Right?

I mean like they're,

They're,

They're smaller populations,

But now I hear you.

I can't even accept that narrative because I think they're all selling themselves out to be the minority.

Just as a white woman is pretending she's a lesbian white woman.

She's not really,

She's not,

She doesn't belong to that minority group,

But because that's where the kudos are,

I'm going to pretend I am a lesbian because that's where the victimhood points are.

And I'm like,

That is truly batshit crazy.

Brilliant marketing based on the minority group.

What end?

What are we creating here?

I mean,

I thought the point of enlightenment was to come out of victimhood,

To come out of our little niche groups and embrace more and more people to feel more expansive,

To extend the reach in the world.

I think just always angry people and they're going to find a way to make it shitty for everyone else.

You know,

But this is not,

As you are discovering yourself,

You're in Austin,

That is another bastion of political politics.

Yeah.

I feel like New York,

Maybe like the only big place that has not completely in the tentacles – I mean,

Political correctness doesn't even sound like the correct word to describe it anymore.

Maybe 20 years ago it was.

Today it's like something really,

The only image that comes to my mind,

Like a visual is like,

It's really dark tentacles reaching out and it's a power graph.

Yeah.

We're calling themselves social justice warriors,

Which has like a violent feel to it already.

Like they're at war for justice.

It makes me upset on what you're saying about like how even the non-minorities are not trying to be in part of it.

Like I'm meeting young men who kind of have like white guilts for being men,

But it's like male guilt.

Everything manly about them they think is evil and they're ashamed of.

And then they reach out to me like,

Oh,

I can't connect with women.

It's because I hear afraid to be a man.

And then they're like,

Oh,

That's toxic for me to be dominant is toxic for me to like have a penis is toxic.

I am,

I mean,

Yeah,

I'm not,

I haven't received too many of those guys,

But I have in my workshops and conversations,

I can have,

Have dealt with their partners,

Their women who are encouraging that kind of new masculinity,

Which isn't much of masculinity at all.

And then they are frustrated because they don't feel like their man can handle them.

But he is as emotional as she is when she has a breakdown,

He has a breakdown.

He Ross is dead.

And at best,

The analogy that keeps coming is like,

We feel like brother and sister after a while.

I really feel like two,

Two orphans who have been abandoned.

Like you're constantly,

We're just trying to hold things up emotionally.

And both of our emotional houses are falling.

And there's like no grown up in the house.

Once the crisis occurs,

There's no strength,

There is no stability.

And it's very bizarre to watch.

It's truly is a,

It's a puzzling thing to watch and it feels,

It feels somewhat new.

Maybe it's been brewing in the culture because it seems really widespread,

But it feels recent,

Like a few years.

I don't know.

It feels like something is coming to the purpose.

Well,

What comes to mind is like a lot of the David Data and David Data inspired work.

Like they talk about like,

Are you familiar with David Data?

I have a couple of his books.

Yes.

I have a lot of terms for wrong,

But like level one is like the 1950s alpha male.

And then level two is like the sixties and seventies,

Like really soft man.

And level three is like the integration.

And then I hear a lot of like even podcasters,

Other thought leaders like,

Oh yeah,

You were like the new third of bald men.

But in my eyes,

They're still pansies.

They're actually what they think is the middle is actually very far,

Not masculine at all.

I'm seeing the journey towards masculinity basically being aborted.

I think they are basically being encouraged not even to go down this path.

And I find it,

I mean,

At one level,

You know,

The world is so big.

There's so many people and there have always been people who will play their own games and that's great.

So at some level,

Like the Herman and the philosopher in me just kicks back and like,

Okay,

Let's watch what happens here.

Let's see what happens here.

I'm curious.

At one level,

I'm fully curious.

I don't know everything,

But I do have some sense of how things work.

And when I see people adopting philosophies that are like,

In my opinion,

Completely off the goddamn rocker,

I'm like,

Okay,

Let's see how this pans out.

I'm curious to see how this pans out.

So far the news isn't great.

I don't have children.

I never give people advice on child-rearing.

I get questions from people about child-rearing sometimes from couples on how to handle it.

And I usually stay completely clear of it.

But in this conversation,

I will make one point.

I see people these days saying we are not even going to enforce any gender on our child.

Our boy with a penis wants to wear a dress to school.

So be it.

He sees a girl with nail polish and he wants to put on nail polish.

We will put nail polish on him.

And yeah,

Part of me is like,

I am curious to see how this experiment turns out.

It is not something I would do to my own child.

I think giving somebody guidance in the world,

Whether it is about their gender,

About their role,

About how you play with other people,

That is what parents do.

You're supposed to tell them not this way,

That way.

We don't hit people.

You don't grab it.

You ask for it.

You share it.

They share with you.

We teach them all these values and we guide them into what it means to fit into society,

To make sense of things.

But in this area,

We're like,

No,

There's no more masculinity.

There's no more femininity.

It's just completely invented concepts.

And we're going to just let them ruse.

We're going to provide absolutely no guidance or correction towards channeling boys towards masculinity or girls towards femininity.

I'm like,

Let's see what happens.

Well,

I think so.

So my girlfriend has a kid and she's kind of in that boat where she wants him to not think of gender roles at all.

And I argue with her,

Even though it's not my kid,

It's not really my say,

But like he wears pink sometimes.

She does some things,

But like he's so inherently innately masculine in his interest.

He's two and a half years old.

He loves hitting things.

He loves sports.

He loves like violence and dragons.

He thinks teddy bears are stupid.

It's just funny.

Even with parents who are trying to make him not masculine.

Yeah.

And the researchers back this up.

There's this guy who had Google who got into trouble was coding,

Wasn't pulling this stuff out of his ass.

He was actually coding really thorough research that's been done over and over saying testosterone has an impact on the brain.

Boys are born more interested in things.

Girls are born more interested in people.

We do have sexual differences.

Biologists will tell you if the two sexes didn't have any differences,

There will be no point in having two sexes.

There would be no point in sexual reproduction if the two sexes that you invent do not cover different categories,

Different areas so that when they come together,

They bring strengths and the strength is passed on to the progeny.

If the two sexes are completely identical with no differences,

That is entirely waste of resources as far as nature is concerned and nature doesn't waste resources.

Yeah.

I thought there's a couple of things in the Google memo where he talked about neuroticism.

Maybe he should use a different word.

Neuroticism,

By the way,

It is not his word.

This is the word.

There's a big five personality traits and neuroticism is one of them.

You want to blame somebody,

Blame the psychiatrist and the researchers.

Yeah,

But he must have known.

Negative emotion.

Like he must have known.

Like,

Come on.

I mean,

To the other people's point,

The way he wrote.

I totally hear you to a civilian.

It sounds like a judgment,

But it truly is not a judgment.

If you open up the psychology literature,

If you just Google the big five personality traits,

It is right there.

Yeah.

Make that up.

He didn't make up the word.

No,

I think he lacks certain feminine aesthetic qualities.

He's a geek.

Yeah.

Like,

But I could see like,

Oh man,

He did not.

I mean,

Someone with a little more feminine awareness would have known not to work.

That reminds me of the lead character on Silicon rally.

He even looks like him.

Really?

I don't know what he looks like.

Are you familiar with Jordan Peterson's work?

I am.

I've been a bunch of his videos.

I think he's a brilliant man and a sane voice,

A great voice of reason out there in this great milieu.

Milieu.

What's going on?

Well,

Yeah,

He's another guy.

I mean,

He's great and I agree with 99% of what he says,

But he also has a way of speaking where I'm just like,

As someone who spends a lot of time with women and like the feminine energy,

Like his choice of words,

Sometimes I can see why people get angry at him.

Even though he's a professor,

He kind of is forceful.

He likes to make his point,

But he's very qualified.

Yeah.

Man is a psychologist.

He's a professor.

He's a philosopher.

He does clinical research in psychology.

He's truly is an authority on personality differences between the genders.

He's truly an authority on the subject.

Literally.

I mean,

He's on the forefront of this research.

So it might be worth listening to somebody like that when they try to explain to you what's going on in this conversation.

Yeah.

It's just tough if you're talking to someone with the opposing viewpoint to try to have them see your side and you're speaking in like the most antagonistic language.

I totally hear you on that.

Listen,

I am known to be someone who speaks his mind and someone who can often be a prerogator,

But even I feel like I'm walking on cutting on eggshells in this area because the listening is so closed off.

The listening for any kind of a conversation in this area is so closed off that people hear two words and they kind of classify you on what side of the political argument are you in.

And if you're not exactly in the peg that they approve of,

You're screwed.

And the conversation has ended and you're evil.

So I don't know where we're headed with all this.

Yeah.

It's interesting how quickly the conversation became like this because I remember six years ago when I became interested in sexuality,

I felt like I was convincing men the importance of the feminine as a concept.

And that was kind of like an odd thing for most men,

At least that I was hanging out with.

But it was easy for a man to talk about the feminine.

A woman talking about it would be met in the same way that Jordan Peterson's talk is often heard by social justice warriors.

Yeah,

It's funny.

But these days I think we are at least attempting to try to get women to appreciate men to something.

Yeah.

Like,

You know,

I mean,

It seems like women,

So many women have waged war on the masculine and they keep claiming they're waging war on the masculine because the masculine has waged war on the feminine.

But truly down to my soul,

I don't know if that's ever been true.

I know there have been patriarchal systems and there have been things that are outdated and they're being corrected,

But this entire notion that men have simply hated women and treated them as second-class human beings and simply used them and oppressed them,

I'm like,

Men live for women.

Men have always fucking lived for women.

Men's lives are meaningless without women and we have always known that.

Yeah,

The generalizations are tough because obviously there have been influential male figures that oppressed women throughout history,

But it's like,

You know,

What percentage of the XY chromosome owners was actually that.

And then we're talking about individual bad people rather than saying this is an archetypical phenomena that the entire masculine of the species has oppressed and basically used and demeaned the feminine and now we need to rise up and basically chop them in.

I think that narrative you're responding to is a fiction.

I don't think it's ever existed.

I don't buy it.

Do you find,

I mean,

So you were saying that a lot of the women in your workshops are like,

Say,

Guiding their men into like a soft feminine version of masculinity.

This is the thing.

I am pretty blatant and open about who I am and what I do and which is a good thing because then people self-select.

The people who actually end up in front of me,

They usually are not as,

You know,

They're not the people I'm talking about on the Western.

I mean,

I've met a few like they used to be and then they realized their sex sucked.

Yeah,

And then that struggle,

As I said,

That most common thing I come into is there isn't a celebration of masculine strength,

Aggressiveness or assertiveness on the part of the woman and or the part of the man.

And then there's a deep desire because they're in my workshops and this is not always the case but oftentimes women are coming in with a desire that they want their man to dominate them in the bedroom at least and they can't get to it.

The man can't get to it.

The woman can't get to it.

The man is confused.

Man's like,

What the hell are you talking about?

This is not the deal we made.

This is not the picture of masculinity that you've been saying you want all these years.

This is not the image of the good guy,

You know,

Someone who handles his woman or ties her up or does this to her and now you want all this.

Who the hell are you?

And this is not our agreement.

These are not the marriage laws we took.

Right?

So men are feeling like they're kind of,

They showed up as a guy that woman said she wanted and now they're being told I want somebody else.

Right?

Or oftentimes she's saying,

Well,

How about I just go play with somebody else and have a date and he's like,

That's not cool either because you are basically going,

You're basically saying I want to go get off on a aspect of masculine energy that you have been telling me sucks.

Something that's antiquated and out of date and Neanderthal and then toxic,

The most common word,

Right?

That's the conflict I come into.

I don't think domination and submission is toxic.

I believe it is based in love.

I believe it's based in wanting to give our partners what they want.

But you know,

For the people who are not familiar with it,

There is this immense confusion.

The confusion,

I keep having this conversation over and over,

Is between the political and the erotic because when people who have not explored the erotic,

The two are so intertwined that they just don't know when they're having a political conversation and when they're having an erotic conversation.

Yeah,

And people on the political side are like starving and then they have to kind of give up some ideologies in order to have good sex.

Right.

I mean,

The dirty secret on the part of so many of the modern feminists is that the image of the man that they want to create,

Those men,

They actually don't want them in their bed.

Right.

They don't want the feminist men in their bed.

It's kind of a running joke and an open secret and kind of a dirty secret that even the women who are demanding,

This is what modern medicine should look like,

Those women don't want to fuck those men.

Yeah.

And it's similar,

You know,

Just to flip the other side,

Like men who want to oppress the women to be small,

They want to sleep with the wild scary woman who has power.

In my milieu here,

I don't know any men who really want to oppress their women.

I swear to God.

Find me one.

Find me one chauvinistic pick today.

I see men who are just dying to find ways to please their women.

Yeah.

I see people ready to walk on coal to get their women off.

If only I knew what to do is all they're asking for.

Yeah.

They're so desperate to please their women and not knowing how to do it.

I am not seeing any oppressive energy.

Most men are terrified of their women.

They don't have the power to please their women.

People are afraid of power and the easiest way to deal with fear of power is to shame the power and say it's bad.

And I think that's been going on in both directions between sexes for a while.

Or even not even between sexes,

Between races,

Between social classes.

I think the conversation about power may be one of them,

But the word that keeps coming up at least out there is justice,

Justice,

Justice,

Justice.

And I'm like,

I actually think it's an overused concept.

I don't know if people are ready.

I've written and I'm writing on this.

I don't think I can share with you my thesis if you are.

There are three virtues that truly are virtues,

But I think they're overrated.

All three of these virtues are overrated.

The first virtue is justice.

The second virtue is equality.

And the third virtue is freedom.

They are all absolutely necessary for us to individuate and find our way in the world.

And they're all overrated.

They all have their limits.

And if you try to use them beyond their use,

If you try to use justice beyond the use of justice,

You will only create mischief and you will only create more disaster.

You will end up creating injustice.

And I see this happening all over the place.

People want to create justice and equality of outcome.

And they truly are putting their heads up their own asses trying to do it.

And they're creating a lot of damage.

It's pointless.

Create equality of opportunity and your task is done.

Create justice being equality under the law and justice's work is done.

You want to use justice beyond that point.

It is just mischief.

It won't work.

That's my opinion.

Yeah.

Well,

It's just like the antagonism in either direction just creates more enemies to the other side.

I always like the violence like in the hate,

The racial hate groups are coming out more because there's more noise about anti-racism and it's just creating more polarity.

It's certainly,

Yes.

The cauldron certainly seems to be boiling over.

And of course,

They're absolutely detestable people on the political right.

We are brown men here.

We have no sympathies.

We are Nazis and white supremacists.

And that is an element that has always existed in this country.

And of course,

They should be condemned one over if that's even possible.

I don't know how they can be one over.

Yeah.

Well,

I saw a great video about a black man who would befriend KKK members and get them to like,

He didn't like fight them.

He just like,

Would he take them out for a drink?

And then afterwards the KKK member would like not be angry at black people anymore.

I think that's,

You know what,

That's what Gandhi would do.

That's what he was brilliant.

And he's like,

What have I got to lose?

Rice over beer?

Although he probably didn't drink,

But you know what I mean?

If I convert a man from his belief,

How much better is that compared to throwing Molotov cocktails at his food?

Yeah.

On the sexuality piece,

The masculinity stuff,

Like at a lot of your workshops,

You say that very few men are born even wanting to be dominant.

They decide they want to be dominant because they realize it gets women off,

Which is interesting.

I think that's even for me,

True,

Like a lot of the virtues of masculinity that I believe in now,

I've only come across because I recognize that that's what women care about ultimately to respond to.

Yeah.

I think the core drive is not for dominance or anything specific,

But core drive is if my woman is happy with me,

That is an indicator that I'm successful in my relationship.

If my woman is unhappy with me,

That means I'm failing in my relationship.

So we are desperate to please our women and we're looking for ways.

Yeah.

And then younger men,

I think are getting the wrong advertising of what is making women happy.

That is like,

That is the core pain I see in men,

In younger men,

Men here especially,

They're like,

I don't know what to do anymore.

I've heard those words from you at the end of your relationship.

I don't know what to do with her anymore.

There's this utter frustration like,

You know,

I thought this was going to work.

I tried it and didn't.

Then she said,

This was going to work.

I tried that and she threw that back in my face and I'm tired.

I'm really tired of just jumping through hoops.

Yeah.

Right.

It's like I actually showed up in a way you told me to show up and then you basically turn around and say,

Yeah,

That's not working for me.

Yeah.

Right.

You know,

I think it would be a great,

Like very short book,

Maybe a small pamphlet that maybe you could write someday.

It's just like,

What are the actual things?

It's like you give these to like a 16 year old kid.

Like this is the checklist,

No matter what she says,

This is what she'll respond to.

You're probably going to burn me at stake for saying those things.

I don't think I want that kind of heat.

That would have to be like,

That would have to be a mystery school.

I can only whisper it in your ears and send you on your way.

I'm not sure I want to put that in writing.

I don't think the world is ready for it yet.

I literally think the hearing is simply not there for it.

People will not be able to hear it.

Women will not be able to hear it.

But it'll be true,

Right?

I mean,

Bodies respond.

It's just hard to generalize in that way.

But there are,

The rules of IRAS are kind of lying,

Kind of they're lying in plain sight if you simply lift up the layers of politics and choose to look at them.

What I would do is basically point you out to a layer,

A couple of layers deep and say,

It's all there.

It's not my philosophy.

It's all out here.

Right?

Yeah.

Look at the,

You can look at the research.

You don't even need to like come up with your own things.

Look at the research on what turns women on.

What is the erotica they read?

What is the running theme in romance novels that they read so much?

It's exclusively female driven industry.

What are the themes that come up over and over?

What are the movies that women watch over and over?

What are the men that they're fantasizing about?

Read,

You know,

By now we have many,

Many volumes of women's authentic fantasies.

People have compiled.

What are women fantasizing about?

Go read those.

You don't need me to spell anything out.

No,

The information is there.

Only the truth is the modern women is having a very difficult time reconciling that aspect of her eras,

Which has been very consistent by the way.

It hasn't evolved.

We would like to think everything is changing generation by generation and you know,

It isn't.

The erotic template has been the same.

It goes back to,

You know,

Knights trying to woo their princesses and all the archetypes are the same and all the basic structures are the same.

Every biology and our selection biology really doesn't change.

One day.

Yeah,

Just like run an all time high of denial of the biology.

And the information is there.

The hard time we are having is integrating that information into our modern life and reconciling it with our politics.

I think because the two are not,

If you try to put them on the same plane,

They fight each other,

But they don't belong in the same plane.

If you keep your politics in the political plane and keep your eras in the erotic realm,

It's fine if they are pointing in different directions.

You can do different things on two different planes,

But you know who you are at that point.

You're not confused.

And then you're actually actively trying to create the world you want at both levels.

So that's interesting.

So you actually think it's okay for them to be opposed?

Absolutely.

Because we don't,

We actually don't want political patriarchy.

It's an old model.

We don't want to go back to any of the traditionalistic,

Keep women barefoot and pregnant kind of nonsense.

That's not where we are either.

Women are brilliant.

Women can do anything men can do.

They should.

They are exceeding men in universities and education.

So there isn't that,

There is no problem there and they should seek more political power.

We probably have too many stupid men in politics right now,

Ruining things.

And maybe women can bring a balance.

Although quite frankly,

In the political realm,

I don't have much faith in female politicians because they just see they're doing the same thing as men are doing.

I don't think in the political realm,

I don't think the women are bringing any feminine perspective.

I think they're simply learning to play the same masculine game that the politicians,

Male politicians are playing.

But that aside,

By all means,

Run for Congress,

Be president.

I voted for Hillary.

You know what I mean?

It's no problem.

That the confusion is not,

You know,

You don't need to change anything in your political belief.

I have absolutely no interest in changing anybody's political belief.

My mission,

If I have one,

If I'm called to contribute,

Is to separate the political from the erotic and just unconfuse people.

By all means,

Seek any political design you want.

Fight for your country,

Try to create the kind of society you want.

But if you think you're doing it by,

You know,

Down with men,

Down with straight men,

I'm like,

I don't think you're going to succeed.

That kind of social justice is feeding into the patriarchal structure.

It is.

It's feeding into,

I mean,

It's a really nasty energy.

It's creating a lot of hatred.

I'm not quite sure what good,

What softness,

What love,

What compassion,

What eros can come out of that.

Politics is that a person in touch with the non-masculine feminine stuff probably would never be interested in running to the point of the Google memo.

Like people who are in touch with that aren't seeking the power that would put them in the place to change the things in the first place.

I would hope that's not the case,

But I'm kind of feeling pessimistic looking at what was going on in this country day after day.

Just it's nuts.

Yeah.

I was looking a long time ago just to avoid it or I don't care anymore.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

Whenever I do get like,

You know,

Some report from the front lines,

Especially on the West Coast,

The news is not good.

The level of misandry in that culture,

The level of downward men,

Men are horrible.

I'm like,

I don't know where this is going.

I don't know what kind of world you want to create.

I don't know where,

Where do you want to go with this?

Yeah.

So do you think,

I mean,

The only natural solution is for enough people to realize that their sex sucks because of all this.

To tell you the truth,

My view is even a bit more pessimistic than I don't think that's what the resolution is going to be.

I actually think that is we're headed towards a lot of strife.

I think we're headed towards a lot of pain.

This is more,

I feel this is more perspective from a little bit of a psych.

There is a momentum in the psyche.

There is too much boiling in this pot for it not to continue,

Boil or explode.

And then whatever new comes will come after the explosion.

I don't think we have any chance of tamping this down.

I don't think we're going to be able to pull out the fire sticks and calm this part down.

I don't think that's happening.

So do you think we'll see more stuff like Charlottesville until we descend into anarchy?

Yes.

I see everything,

Every trigger that is being pushed now that is clouding people's thinking,

It's going to get pushed more.

I don't see anything.

I don't see any,

Our conversation might be the exception.

There's no humor.

There is no laughter.

There is no perspective when you're in the middle of that energy.

And I don't think that energy is not going to recede.

It's going to keep going forward and it's going to explode in some way.

And it's going to create immense suffering for the people who are holding the energy.

So just to the point,

Do you think that people should be stocking their cans of food and buying a firearm?

To the point where I know this sounds really woo woo and crazy and I usually don't go this far woo woo,

But I would not be surprised if,

I especially see the West Coast almost as like a meridian of this energy.

This really antagonistic energy,

The energy there is an energy of no.

It's a deeply indignant energy.

And this indignation is like a Molotov cocktail for disintegration.

It's core egoic energy.

It says,

I am right,

You're wrong.

I am angry and I'm justified in being angry.

There's no backing up from that.

You feel you're justified in your anger to simply cut other people off and dismiss them,

Simply dismiss them.

You voted for Trump,

I'm done with you.

Don't even show your face to me.

That kind of energy,

It kind of generates itself over time,

Especially when it is in a collective field.

And that day it will explode in some spectacular way and create a lot of misery.

It'll keep creating more and more misery.

On the West Coast,

Pick your option.

The SN Andreas fault could move,

Give you people a lot of misery.

The Cascadia fault line could move,

Give you energy that has not been felt there in 300 years.

You got a nut job in Korea pointing his missiles at the West Coast.

All the doctors are talking about pandemics on the words,

I don't know why,

But it's like alien invasion.

I think alien invasion would be a cool thing.

It would just bring us out of our nonsense and it creates immunity.

But this kind of energy,

I think it creates more of itself and more of itself only heads in one direction and that suffering and breakdown.

The suffering will simply break you and you will have to try something else.

You'll have to come out of it by doing something else.

Yeah.

The addiction to suffering or like the feeling justified in anger is so funny.

I have a friend who posted to Facebook that her great grandmother or her grandmother just passed away and she came here from Poland or escaped.

I mean,

I'm butchering the facts.

She escaped fascism in Europe,

Came here and she just passed away and she was very sad,

Whatever.

Got a lot of sad face likes on it.

But then she said,

But my grandmother voted for Trump and I can never forgive her.

And it's just like your grandmother just died and had all these lovely things.

And she's like,

Oh,

How could she vote for fascism when she escaped fascism?

It's like,

She probably had a lot of good reasons,

Whether they're right or not.

I know there's dismissiveness,

Obviously.

Like,

Okay,

This time it's your own grandmother.

Were you at all curious why your grandmother voted for Trump?

Did curiosity even come up and like,

Did you sit down with her?

Did you try to empathize with her reason or did you like,

Nope,

Grandmother voted for Trump,

I'm not going to her funeral?

Because that's where the energy seems to be these days.

Yeah.

People are so sure they are right.

And I think it's a perfect confluence.

Trump is like the perfect crazy ass car to give to that energy.

Yeah.

Indignation.

Because he truly is batshit crazy.

He truly is like an aberration.

Where the hell did this guy come from?

But he's not going anywhere.

I really don't think he's going anywhere.

My only concern is he's going to be there for four more years afterwards.

I think there's a president.

I see this,

I see this energy brewing in this country.

Trump is like the fire under the cauldron.

That fire isn't going anywhere.

It's only been six months.

What happens when he keeps heating up this energy for three and a half more years?

Where are you going to go?

What is your plan?

You know,

When,

If you are in that pressure cooker and you hate everything this man's doing and you think everyone who voted for him is basically an abomination,

What are you setting yourself up for,

For three and a half more years and possibly more of this man basically pushing your triggers?

It doesn't look good.

It doesn't look like anything anybody can solve or pull back from.

Day after day it looks worse.

Day after day we're like going further down and there's no hope of pulling people back into calmness and tolerance and like.

Yeah,

And there's so much permission for hate on both sides,

Which is interesting.

The fact that Trump was elected proves that there's enough people who are opposed that I could directly oppose the social justice left that are there.

Maybe they're not as making as much noise because they don't have as much media control,

But like clearly both of these things exist.

I think you just used a very beautiful phrase.

You should write on that permission for hate.

I think that's actually capture something.

If you think about it.

Write that down.

Yeah,

I think that's actually,

You just articulated something that is probably right.

You touched a pulse there because traditionally,

Especially in a country that is,

You know,

It may not be a Christian country,

But they're Christian people here.

This level of hate is not a Christian value.

It is not a Christian value.

But there is so much hate in this country right now on both sides.

And it seems like everybody,

Instead of even pointing out that this kind of hate is not good,

They're stoking the hate.

They're saying,

No,

No,

No,

Your hate is justified.

In fact,

If you're not full of hate and you're not on the streets bashing people's head in,

Then your belief is actually kind of impotent.

You're actually not doing what you believe in.

I'm like,

There has to be a kind of an alternate perspective on this.

Yeah.

But I heard from Joe Rogan on his show,

He was talking about like,

Probably because you mentioned the bashing in,

I know metaphorically,

But like,

We are at a point in civilization where there's not,

And there's like really no physical challenges or danger challenges for people in the first world.

So it's like there's some acumen impulse that be at war with something or battle something.

If you're not battling nature,

Like food or an enemy or predators,

You got to battle something.

So that's part of maybe why all this nature is coming out.

It's certainly not a good channeling of that impulse.

Yeah.

It is not a good channeling of that impulse.

But if we just send it to anarchy,

We'll both go back to having to hunt again and that'll be great.

It'll stop hating each other.

Maybe.

I hope not.

I think anarchy sounds cooler than it actually is.

Yeah.

People who keep talking about,

We want a revolution.

I know.

I feel like asking them,

Have you ever been in a revolution?

It actually isn't fun.

Ask somebody who has.

Ask somebody who has lived through a time where they could hear the rumbling of tanks going down their streets.

It may sound cool and look cool in movies.

I actually don't think you want to go there.

If you don't believe it,

Turn on the news and look at Venezuela or a dozen other countries.

That's what anarchy looks like.

You don't see these political conversations in countries with actual strife.

Maybe they exist on some level,

But they have more important things to talk about.

Yeah.

And so many of these people on the progressive left,

I don't know,

Quite know all the distinction.

I know there's a lot going on,

But it's like,

At least some of them seem to be proudly saying we are anarchists.

I'm like,

Okay then.

I don't think that's a great thing.

Yeah.

I'm so surprised that,

Because we're talking about the left being not on the left.

I grew up in New York City.

I've always thought I would be on the left,

But now I.

You do.

Those are my people.

Representing the right kind of.

Workshops and sensuality and BDSM for Christ sake,

I didn't think,

I certainly don't look to the right wing people as my audience.

I thought the people on the left were my people,

But more and more,

I'm not quite sure who's my people.

Yeah.

Well,

There's enough people.

There are people having this conversation out there.

We need to make more noise to find each other.

Yeah.

Humor is one good indicator.

You should try and laugh about anything at some point.

And if you feel you can't,

You're in too deep.

Really if you can't laugh about your stance a little bit,

At least,

And see what an idiot you are sometimes,

And you are taking yourself way too seriously.

You should be able to say,

This is what I believe today.

I could be entirely wrong.

Yeah.

You should not,

You should not believe you have such a firm grasp of the ultimate truth in your hands that nobody ought to even question you anymore.

That level of certainty scares me.

Yeah.

And interestingly enough,

Another gender topic,

And I have to open up a new one,

Is the gender identity thing of I am blank,

Which is just a really hardened ego of I am this thing and you must call me this thing.

Again,

Not only I am that,

But if you do not comply exactly to what I say you should treat me as,

Again,

Absolutely no room,

No sense of humor.

And you're like,

You are disregarding my existence.

You are like,

Really?

I mean,

I feel like saying to those people,

You know what?

Nobody should be able to destroy your existence that easily.

Why have you put yourself in a position that somebody not using your pronoun can destroy your existence?

That's a pretty shitty stance to take in life.

Why have you made yourself that vulnerable to people who are not sympathetic to what you're doing or what you're exploring?

Why have you made yourself that,

Set that much of an open target?

Do you have any part to play in that relationship?

Right?

I mean,

You know.

Yeah.

Oddly enough,

If there was anarchy,

Then there'd be no external body to enforce or protect the victim for this victimhood.

My sense is they don't want anarchy.

They want more central control.

They want more regulation.

In Canada,

They're doing it.

They have found a way that if you don't use somebody's preferred pronoun,

It's actually a crime.

You can be fined lots of money.

That's so ridiculous.

They put it in the,

I don't know the details.

Jordan Peterson's talks will cover this.

He's been fighting it.

I don't know all of them,

But it's like they've made it part of hate crime or some other discrimination crime so that if you do that,

It's illegal.

Yeah.

Like there's a guy who,

He was like a landlord and he was showing an apartment where a Muslim family lived and he didn't take off his shoes and like he's being fined like $25,

000 or something for like a cultural something.

Denial.

Anyway.

Anyways.

Well,

We just ran through an hour pretty quickly.

Did you,

Just tying the last thing,

Tying into woo woo stuff with the anarchy stuff.

Did you hear about like the fortune teller who apparently predicted certain things like the 43rd president would be black and then the next president would be the last president?

Last president as an ever?

Yeah.

It was like the next 45.

Yeah.

The 45th president would be the last president.

So I hope she's wrong.

I certainly don't want that level of chaos in my life,

But let's see.

I truthfully in my heart,

I have an abiding faith in the American Republic.

I think the Republican,

The public is stronger than any president and this too shall pass.

This country has survived many,

Many things and Trump is certainly giving us our own drug for our money,

But I don't think he will be the end of the country.

That's my faith.

But on the other hand,

I feel we are in for a lot of hurt in the coming years.

I don't see anything simmering down.

It shows no indication of simmering down.

I don't know where it goes.

I don't know how it explodes,

But I just see a lot of suffering coming into this country.

Yeah.

Love you more.

The ones who are suffering are going to suffer more.

That's the,

That's the,

The,

I don't know what you want to call it,

But you know,

It's amazing to me that,

Especially on the West Coast,

It's very funny for me as an Indian guy because you know,

I kind of observed the other thing that they're very sensitive about is cultural appropriation.

And as soon as I hear that word,

I'm like,

Let me think of all the things they've stolen from Indian people.

I don't really care.

I don't believe in cultural appropriation,

But one of the things they got from India was so much of over spiritual practices.

One of the things they got is that idea that we will be creating our own reality.

Right.

So much of the West Coast energy,

The new age energy,

The secret energy,

The manifestation energy is about how you are on the inside.

The universe is likely to reflect back that to you.

And the West Coast people were like the pioneers in giving this to the world,

This paradigm to the world.

So you might want to consider that what's happening in your life is partly being projected back from what you are in your inner space.

They know this.

And I'm like,

What has happened to this beautiful wisdom these days?

Because all you're projecting out is hate right now.

You hate Trump.

You hate the right.

You hate Steve Bannon.

You hate,

You hate,

You hate.

You are indignant,

You're indignant,

You're indignant,

You're indignant.

You're protesting,

You're against,

You're against,

You're against.

I'm like,

I don't even subscribe 100% in the secret,

But I know those people do.

I'm like,

You need to reopen that paradigm and kind of look at what this dynamo is going to produce back at you.

If you are so deadlocked in this negative dynamo,

What do you think is going to come at you more?

And it seems like there doesn't even seem to be any place to have that conversation.

They're just in it.

They're so in it.

Like how dare you even suggest I not be this angry?

I'm like,

Okay,

Go for it.

I'm glad I'm on this side because I don't know what's going to explode there.

I know there's energies everywhere in this country and in pockets everywhere,

But certainly the West Coast meridian from Seattle to Portland,

At least to the Northern to middle part of California is like in its grip.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

We'll wait and see what happens to it.

Yeah.

Well,

Yeah,

We'll see.

I mean,

It probably will be a while.

Probably the next conversation we have will also be about masculinity.

Maybe not.

Maybe we'll have a new topic.

Who knows?

All right.

Yeah.

Cool.

It was a pleasure speaking with you.

We'll talk soon.

Thanks for listening.

Don't forget to subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher.

If you want to be a part of the virtual audience for future episodes,

Make sure to follow me at crowdcast.

Io slash Rwanda.

See you next time.

Bye.

Bye.

Reviews

This was hard to listen to because I registered so many points of disagreement where my queer feminist buttons got pushed, but it was exactly what I needed to hear to remind myself that as I “fight the power” I may use tools of oppression I’d rather dismantle or create more strife than is necessary to right a wrong.

Fascinating and to hear it 3 years on it’s pretty interesting how much has come to pass. He even mentions a pandemic!