The Adult Chair Podcast: Transforming Betrayal With Debi Silber

Dr. Debi Silber from the PBT Institute (Post Betrayal Institute) and I had a great conversation on the transformation of betrayal. Debi has done studies on betrayal and has a proven method for transformation. We discussed how betrayal can affect us physically and emotionally, even though we may not even know it. Debi shared with us the stages of transformation and how you too can heal and repair the damage from a betrayal.

Transcript

Welcome to the Adult Share Podcast with Michelle Chalfant,

A place to delve into who we are,

How we got that way,

And explore what it takes to be a healthy grownup.

With an extensive toolbox and guests with varied expertise,

Michelle will lead us on a journey to learn what it's like to live authentically and to love ourselves just the way we are.

And now here's Michelle.

Well hello everybody.

It's Michelle Chalfant and welcome to the Adult Share Podcast.

I cannot believe that we are in February already.

I am kind of in shock about that.

We did the Adult Share Weekend Intensive that last weekend in January in Charlotte,

North Carolina in MSA.

It was a phenomenal weekend.

The venue everybody loved,

Which I was thrilled about.

It was seated right in the middle of a park and had water all around it and trees.

And it was so wonderful for grounding and taking breaks and going outside.

Everybody loved it.

We just had a fabulous weekend.

So thank you to all that attended.

And I know we had a lot of people on the wait list.

So I just want you to all to know the next Adult Share Intensive will be in Nashville,

Tennessee.

We're working on April.

So as soon as we have that venue,

Which hopefully will be this week,

I will post it and let you all know.

The other thing I'm thinking about is possibly coming to the UK this summer,

Maybe June.

So I will keep you posted on that as well.

We're working on leaving the United States and coming to some of these other countries because I hear from so many of you.

So again,

The UK,

Hopefully in June.

All right.

So today we are talking about transforming betrayal.

I have a wonderful guest on today.

Her name is Debbie Silber and we are talking about betrayal.

Actually she calls it post betrayal syndrome,

Post betrayal transformation.

She has wonderful tools.

She has done research on betrayal,

How we transform our betrayal.

We had a wonderful,

Wonderful conversation.

Debbie has so much training in betrayal and I love that she has done research on this.

In other words,

What she's going to share with us today,

It really works because she's done the research on it.

Dr.

Debbie Silber is the founder of the Post Betrayal Institute,

Otherwise known as the PBT Institute in New York and is a holistic psychologist,

A health mindset and personal development expert.

She's an award winning speaker,

Coach and author of the Amazon number one bestselling book,

The Unshakable Woman,

Four Steps to Rebuilding Your Body,

Mind and Life After a Life Crisis.

The Unshakable Woman,

The workbook,

Which is the companion guide to the book,

As well as two books recommended by Brian Tracy,

Marshall Goldsmith and Jack Canvill.

Debbie has contributed to Fox,

CBS,

The Dr.

Oz Show,

Ted X,

The Huffington Post,

Shape,

Self,

Health,

Working Mother,

Forbes,

Psychology Today.

She's a wealth of information,

Obviously.

Based on her findings,

Along with 27 years of health mindset and lifestyle coaching,

Dr.

Debbie has created a proven multi-pronged approach to help women heal physically,

Mentally and emotionally from a life of crisis specializing in betrayal.

Now for you men that are listening,

I want you to know we're not excluding you.

I did ask her during the show,

Like,

What about men?

Can men apply this?

And she said,

She's had a lot of men start coming through her website and taking this quiz that you're going to hear all about in the show,

So I do not want any of you men to feel excluded.

This show will also apply to you.

So if anyone would like further information about this show,

The Adult Chair or The Adult Chair Model of Self-Love and Transformation,

Be sure to go to theadultchair.

Com for all the information that you need,

As well as don't forget to join our private closed Facebook group for wonderful support and just,

You know,

It's my favorite group.

A lot of people that are there to support you and they are vulnerable and love The Adult Chair Model and everyone's there to learn and grow and share.

So come join us at The Adult Chair Closed Group.

All right.

We are going to get right to it.

We are talking all about betrayal today,

But most importantly,

Transforming betrayal.

You are going to love this show.

We have some wonderful steps and an online quiz,

Et cetera.

Here we go with Dr.

Debbie Silber.

So welcome,

Debbie,

To The Adult Chair.

Boy,

This is going to be such an amazing show,

Transforming Betrayal.

Thank you so much for being here.

Oh,

My pleasure.

So looking forward to our conversation.

I know,

Me too.

We have a lot to talk about because betrayal is a really,

Really big topic.

I thought we could start out with because you are the betrayal expert.

So for people that may not know even what that is or if they've been betrayed,

Would you be able to tell us just a little bit about what can you just define betrayal?

Let's just start there.

Sure.

The way I define it,

It's really the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule.

You know,

Every relationship has rules,

Spoken or unspoken.

And when there's a violation of those rules,

That's a shock,

Sends a shock to the body and the mind.

But you know,

Betrayal has so many faces.

The more we depended upon someone or the more we trusted the bigger the betrayal.

So let's say a child who is completely dependent on their parent,

You know,

That's going to have a much bigger impact than let's say your co-worker who takes credit for your idea.

Still a betrayal.

Right.

Right.

So true.

Yeah.

And so many,

I mean,

You know,

Like your best friend tells your secret.

That's a betrayal.

A partner isn't faithful.

That's a betrayal.

Let's say a mentor who the idea was you trust them and they'll teach you something and then they violate that.

That's a betrayal.

So and we can have self betrayals too.

So it's wherever there's that breaking of the spoken or unspoken rule.

Tell us what a self betrayal would be.

You know,

This could be I've seen this with a few in a few different scenarios.

One could be like I was just speaking with someone the other day.

She said,

You know,

Deb,

I ate well.

I exercised.

I was sleeping and drinking my green juices.

I got breast cancer.

My body betrayed me.

Or someone elsewhere,

Let's say they're drinking or they're binging and they say they're going to stop and they don't.

Well,

They could feel like they're betraying themselves because they promise not to do something and they keep doing it.

So that's when they can or they're accepting something that they shouldn't.

Let's say they're going back to an abusive partner or something.

They could feel like they're betraying themselves.

Oh,

That's great.

Thank you.

And OK,

So I know that you are our expert.

Can we really heal from a betrayal?

Oh,

It's 100 percent.

And here's what I'm finding,

Though.

And the study,

I mean,

The study proved and we can talk all about that afterwards.

So often we think,

Well,

If we just give it some time,

We'll hear.

And what I'm what I'm finding is the people who are coming forward now,

I guess,

Because I'm speaking about it,

Because they're hearing about it,

They realize that a lot of their physical,

Mental,

Emotional symptoms are tied to an unhealed betrayal that could have happened 10,

20,

30,

40 years ago.

Oh,

Wow.

So it becomes like a shadow.

Absolutely.

And like anything,

You know,

Any shadow,

You can run all you like,

But until you turn around and face it,

It's going to be there.

Oh,

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

OK.

So tell us about betrayal and why does it hurt so much?

What does it impact?

What does it create,

Etc.

?

Yeah.

You know,

It hurts so much because we'll think about it.

You're never betrayed by someone you don't know.

It's by the people you know and the people you trust.

And when the people you trust the most prove untrustworthy,

You know,

Who do you trust when the ones you'd run to,

When other people are causing harm are the ones causing the harm?

Where do you go?

It hurts so much because it's so intentional.

And without our awareness or consent,

Someone chose to put their needs above ours.

And here we are playing by the rules and doing what we thought the other person was doing too.

And then we're just blindsided.

And it's like someone just takes their mask off and shows us who they are.

And it's a shock,

An absolute shock.

And trust,

Which is foundational to relationships,

Is shattered.

And it can take decades to build and it's torn down in moments.

True.

And that is the biggest thing I hear,

Of course,

Is when my clients would say to me or anyone,

You know,

How can I ever trust again,

Not trust them or trust so and so,

But trust in general again?

And you're saying it's possible.

It is absolutely possible.

But it's something it takes work and attention and dedication to heal.

And I work with people where they don't trust,

Certainly they don't trust their betrayer,

But they don't trust themselves either because they say,

I'm a bright woman.

How did I not have any clue about any of this?

And it's so interesting because in the study,

This was with everybody and me too,

Where if they were,

Let's say they started out religious,

They moved towards the spirituality,

The spiritual part of their religion.

Or if they weren't religious,

They moved towards spirituality.

And there were really two reasons.

One was they needed to connect to something bigger than themselves.

And the second one was so interesting.

It was like,

They don't trust their betrayer.

They don't trust themselves.

They reasoned at least like a trust in God or the universe or something bigger.

Wow.

And I have people that ask this question too,

Like,

Is there a way that I could have caught it?

Like,

Is there a way I could have sensed it?

Or did I miss my intuition?

Like how did I miss this?

I know in my own people that have betrayed me,

It blindsided me.

I was like,

What?

Like people that I thought I was so close to completely turned.

And I think I'm a very,

Very intuitive person.

I'm like,

How did I miss that?

Yeah.

So I think we can catch it all the time.

Is that true?

It's very true.

And it's so interesting because out of the five stages,

And I'm happy to talk about that after,

But one of the first things we do,

And especially I find this with busy,

Very capable,

Very smart women is we turn down our intuition and we do that because we have so much on our to-do list.

The only way we can get through everything is to become almost machine-like to get things done.

And in doing that,

We turn down the feeling and turn up the thinking.

We turn down the being,

We turn up the doing,

And it's in that feeling and being that's exactly where our intuition is.

So then do you feel like if we were more intuitive or more present moment,

More in our bodies,

That we might be able to catch some of the signs or have like a knowing that something's not quite right with that person?

We could,

But there's the other side of it where there are these lessons that we just need to learn.

And if we don't learn them,

They come back in the form of other opportunities,

Which is just a harder and harder lesson.

So it could be that you turn down your intuition on purpose because you were meant to be blindsided because in being blindsided,

You finally woke up to realize,

Oh my gosh,

My boundaries have always been crossed.

I never really realized how lovable,

Worthy,

Deserving,

Whatever I am,

And no one will ever treat me like that again.

Lesson learned,

Now you've grown,

Now you've learned it,

And it doesn't have to keep repeating itself.

So sometimes it's in our favor.

So it's a growth opportunity.

I love that.

It's a lesson.

It's an experience.

Yeah.

So what are some physical symptoms of betrayal and also some emotional and or mental?

Sure.

You know,

There's a,

There is,

It turns out there's a collection of symptoms so common to betrayal that it's become known as post betrayal syndrome.

Wow.

Oh yeah.

And I have a quiz right on my site just to show you to what extent are you still struggling.

And it's amazing because there are these physical,

Mental,

And emotional symptoms.

And what happens is we play this game of whack-a-mole,

Like where we see a symptom and we just try to sort of tamp down the symptom and we never get to the root of it,

Which is the unhealed betrayal.

But it could be something like we're exhausted,

But we can't sleep.

You know,

We have a gut issue.

There's anger,

Sadness,

Rage,

Depression.

There's mental chaos,

Overwhelmed confusion,

Brain fog.

You know,

These are so common.

Exactly.

Right?

Yeah.

So you go to a,

Let's say a wonderful gut expert to do something about your gut issue.

You go to a therapist for some talk therapy and maybe you go to get,

You know,

Some,

A prescription for an anti-anxiety or mood stabilizer.

You go take something for sleep.

And meanwhile,

All of that,

All of it is tied to the betrayal.

And they don't even know it.

You're saying most people don't even know it.

So true.

So,

So,

So true.

So what are the five stages from betrayal,

Like to break through that were discovered in your study?

Sure.

Well,

You know,

At first I was,

Well,

You know,

I mean,

Think about it.

You don't study something like betrayal unless you have to.

And first it was,

It was my,

My family betrayal.

And then I obviously didn't learn the lesson.

So then it was my husband and talk about blindsided.

I mean,

I've been through death of a loved one.

I've been through disease,

Nothing rocked me to my core more than this.

And it catapulted me into this PhD program in transpersonal psychology,

Psychology of transformation,

Human potential,

Because I was transforming.

I didn't even understand it,

But because I needed to understand how the mind works,

You know,

Why we do what we do and how I could heal.

And so when I was there,

I did a study on how women specifically experience betrayal,

What holds them back,

What helps them heal and the five stages.

That's where we discovered the five stages.

And we also discovered the post betrayal syndrome and we discovered something else called post betrayal transformation.

I could talk about that too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the five stages,

The first is like a setup and there's no judgment,

No blame.

This is just what I saw with every single woman.

If you can imagine,

You know,

A table has four legs and those four legs are,

We sort of spoke about this a little bit.

The four legs are mental,

Physical,

Emotional,

And spiritual.

And what I saw with every single woman was they were focusing on the mental and the physical and really ignoring the emotional and the spiritual.

And yeah,

And think about it.

If there's a table with only two legs,

It's really easy for that table to topple over.

Of course.

Yeah.

And they completely shut down their intuition.

They were focusing on the mental and just the physical.

And so then that's stage one.

And in stage two is the crash.

And this is the breakdown of the body,

The mind,

And the worldview.

And this is the scariest stage because now here's where,

You know,

You discover your betrayal and you ignite the stress response.

So now you're having all kinds of symptoms and illnesses,

Conditions,

You know,

Leading towards disease.

So you feel awful mentally.

You can't wrap your mind around what just happened and your worldview is broken down.

Your worldview is how you see the world,

Your mental construct,

Like this person's safe.

This is OK.

This is bad.

This is good.

This is not.

This is how the world works.

And now because of this betrayal by someone that you trusted and you were so,

Let's say,

Dependent upon too,

It's been shattered.

But a new worldview hasn't been constructed yet.

So this is where the bottom truly drops out from under you.

And it's terrifying.

So from this date,

We are just this is complete physical,

Mental,

Emotional chaos.

There was a woman in my study and she said,

Deb,

You know what,

The best way to explain it is like this.

Imagine every negative emotion you can have and then losing your child in a crowd.

It's like that.

Wow.

Wow.

OK.

You know,

It's like you lose you.

You're just you're just so caught off guard.

You feel punched in the gut.

I mean,

You just you can't make sense out of this.

And that's stage two.

But think about it.

If you were walking down the street and the bottom were to bottom out on you,

You would do whatever you could to grab hold of whatever was nearby to survive.

And that's stage three.

Stage three is survival instincts emerging.

And this is a really practical stage.

This is like if you can't help me get out of my way,

How will I survive this?

Where do I live?

Who can I trust?

Who do I need to speak with?

How do I feed my kids?

Like it's it is so totally practical.

But here's the thing.

I see women get stuck in this stage forever.

That was my question.

How long I'm listening to you and I like these stages.

How long do these stages last?

And they're probably different for each person,

I would guess.

But the biggest thing that I saw with everybody in the study was it really it's based on if I had to say what's it based on the most,

It's based on willingness and it's based on your willingness to.

Like there were three things I saw that held women back where they did not heal.

And it was a willingness to accept their betrayal.

And this could be from a co-worker,

From a family member,

From a partner,

Anybody.

If they were unwilling to face it,

To acknowledge it,

To grieve it,

To just say,

Hey,

This happened and OK,

Let me move forward.

They would not not heal.

So the ones who avoided and distracted and were medicated,

Whatever it was to make sure they didn't face it,

To numb from it.

They're numbing.

Yeah,

That's all they're doing.

That's what my TEDx talk was about,

Where we're using food,

Drugs,

Alcohol,

Work,

TV,

Keeping busy,

Reckless behavior,

Whatever it is to numb,

Avoid.

They didn't heal.

And also,

If the betrayer didn't,

If there really wasn't a consequence to the betrayer,

The betrayed didn't.

Yeah,

Exactly.

So if they got away with it,

Then it was harder for people to move forward.

Sure.

I'll tell you,

The women who I studied,

The ones who had the most physical illnesses,

Their betrayer had the least amount of consequence.

Wow.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was so common.

I saw that over and over.

I would guess so many of us,

Too.

We get stuck in the victim,

And we just swirl around and around and around,

And we can't get out of it.

You're so right.

And here's the thing,

Too.

We receive so many benefits from being a victim,

Small self-benefits.

But think about it,

In an experience like betrayal,

When you're the victim,

Well,

You get to be right.

That feels good.

You get self-pity.

You get sympathy from other people.

You get someone to blame.

You don't have to do the hard work of,

Who do I trust?

Who do I not trust?

You're like,

Ah,

Forget it.

I won't trust anybody.

Right.

You don't have to.

You can justify inaction.

I can't do that.

Look what I've been through.

So you can justify that.

You get a story.

You get to build your case.

Well,

This happened when I was seven.

This happened when I was 20.

This happened.

.

.

Right?

And you really.

.

.

Now,

Here's the.

.

.

Everybody's going to get angry when I say this,

But this is so true.

You get to feed and fuel your addiction.

Wow.

Yeah.

And here's what I mean by that one.

When you revisit your betrayal and you revisit it a hundred million times,

Unless you're willing to do something about it,

When you revisit that,

Your thoughts create feelings,

Create emotions.

There's this like little chemical cocktail that's being released.

Gives you a little bit of a jolt.

And we need that jolt or we like that jolt.

It gives us something.

Yeah,

It feels good.

It feels good.

So like any cocktail,

It can be addictive.

So if we.

.

.

All of a sudden we stop thinking about it and then we're triggered or we think about it,

There's that jolt again.

So we have to give up.

Now,

Of course,

These are all benefits to the small cell.

We have to be willing to give all that up in order to move to stage four and five.

But when we do,

The rewards blow the doors off of anything we receive by handing out to those benefits.

And it's like false empowerment by staying stuck in this thing.

Yeah,

It really is.

Oh my gosh.

Wow.

So true though.

It's like it is an addiction.

It's like being addicted to drama or anything else.

It's giving us that high.

So what is this post betrayal syndrome?

Yeah.

Well,

I'll even finish.

Do you want to know stage four and five?

Oh,

I'm sorry.

Oh,

No,

That's okay.

I'm sorry.

I'm jumping ahead.

Yeah.

Finish four and five.

And if you don't say,

And like,

You know,

The beauty of what the study showed is also now we know what happens at every stage,

Physically,

Mentally,

Emotionally,

And what it takes to move from one stage to the next.

So let's say you do the work and you move from stage three to stage four.

Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal.

Your old normal doesn't exist anymore.

It's no longer an option.

So it's really,

It's like if you've ever moved your old house,

Condo,

Apartment,

Office,

Whatever.

You've moved into a new one.

It's not cozy yet.

You don't have your stuff there yet,

But it's going to be okay.

Just in that belief that,

Okay,

Here's where we're going to get a fresh start,

Where this is new,

This is different,

But I'm going to make it okay.

You tell the stress response,

You know what,

I'm doing a little bit better and we don't need to be stay ignited anymore.

And just in that one move right there,

You stop breaking down the body.

And you still don't quite have the bandwidth yet for your own self care,

But you're working towards it.

And then once you've adjusted to that new normal and you feel okay there and you're making it work and you do the other work that goes along with that,

You slowly move into the fifth most beautiful stage.

And this is healing,

Rebirth and a new worldview.

Ooh,

I love it.

The body now is healing.

You've turned this stress response down.

You have the bandwidth now for your own self care.

You want to learn.

You want to heal.

You want to take better care of yourself.

There's a new you that's been birthed based on what you've become,

Based on what you've been through and the old model,

Your old worldview that got shattered.

There's a new worldview now that you've created based on what works for you,

Based on your new beliefs,

What your experiences and that table that was only,

You only had the two legs strengthened.

Now we are solidly grounded,

Physical,

Mental,

Emotional and spiritual.

So in your study,

Did you find a percentage of people that were able to move to stage five or how long does it typically take?

Oh,

Absolutely.

And that was what was so exciting was because they did it.

This was the study was just because it was after here we just discovered what it was.

So it was their own timeline based on just the things that they were trying and doing.

And it was really anywhere from I think it was four months to like 12 or 15 years,

Something like that.

But then in my program,

What was so interesting was because now that we knew what worked for everybody,

That's what we included in the program.

And a woman just broke down and cried and she said,

Debbie,

This would have saved me 20 years.

Wow.

Because it's really it's like if you ever see those little kid rides like at an amusement park or something like it's on a little track.

As long as you sit,

You're willing to sit in that seat on that track,

It will gently and predictably move you forward and to the end of that ride.

So now that that's all we're doing.

We're saying,

OK,

Now we know what it takes.

You're in this stage two or stage three here.

Here's the predictable experiential exercises,

Predictable mindset activities,

Predictable shifts that you need to make to predictably move to that next stage and so on and so on and so on.

Wow.

That's so cool.

And then you can actually give someone a timeline actually so they can know how long I'm going to be in this.

Oh,

Yeah.

We also found that that support,

I mean,

Support is so crucial.

Every woman in the study said that she would have benefited from support and not sit and commiserate,

But just to have because there's so much shame and embarrassment and humiliation and all of these things.

And so at the other end now of the program,

We have certifications to be a certified PBT support group host and practitioner.

So now the women who go through the study,

You can't help but want to share it.

And they hold a space for the women who are just going through or just,

You know,

They're blindsided and they heal as they teach.

That's so beautiful.

I love that.

We need this.

We need these people out there for sure.

OK,

So now tell us what is post betrayal syndrome and how do we know if we have it?

Yes,

The post betrayal syndrome is that collection of symptoms tied to a betrayal.

And this is the craziest part of it.

It doesn't matter if your betrayal was decades ago.

If you're finding that you're stuck or you're wary to trust again or your business is stagnant or your health is stagnant,

There's a really good chance it's because the belief system you you constructed as a result of this unhealed betrayal is the reason why you're not moving forward.

So really the easiest thing to do is just take that quiz right on my site.

And if you want me to share the link,

I can or you can share it.

Yeah,

For sure.

At the very end,

You can give me all those links and we'll put in the show notes without a doubt.

OK,

Wow.

OK.

And what is it?

So what's post betrayal transformation and how is it different from post traumatic growth?

Yeah,

You know,

Originally in this study,

I was because I am optimistic and hopeful.

And even though I was going through my own betrayals,

Even when I was I mean,

I was in ICU for 11 days with a terrible health issue and,

You know,

I lost people I've loved.

But nothing just nothing got me like this betrayal.

So I was studying post traumatic growth,

Like the upside of trauma,

Like what new perspective,

What new life,

What new awareness do you have because of it?

But being through my own life crises,

Betrayal just felt so different.

But I didn't want to assume that was the case for everybody.

So I brought it back out to all my study participants.

And I said,

If you've been through other life crises besides betrayal,

It does this feel different.

Does healing feel different to you?

And they all agreed it was unanimous.

They're like,

Absolutely.

I mean,

One had been through a house fire.

One had been through,

You know,

Death of a loved one.

So they had all been through other stuff,

Too.

And they said,

It's so different because when you heal from betrayal and this isn't a contest,

Like what's worse at all.

This is just,

You know,

What's different when you've been through betrayal because it's so intentional you have and because it's so personal,

You have to heal every aspect of the self that was torn apart.

You know,

You have to heal confidence,

Feeling of rejection,

Worthiness,

Trust.

Like if you lose someone that you love,

You still you mourn the loss.

But you don't question their love for you.

Your ego stays intact for the most part.

Right.

But with betrayal,

It's just I mean,

It's destroyed because you're like,

Why?

You know,

This is so common.

Why wasn't I enough?

Right.

Why am I so insignificant that,

Best friend,

You couldn't keep my secret?

Why did you not value our agreement?

So all of these issues of self worth all has to be rebuilt.

So it needed a new term.

So I coined a new term post betrayal transformation.

Oh,

I love that.

I love that.

I love that.

So what if we were betrayed?

And how do we know if maybe we don't even know that we were betrayed and we've gone on to live our life?

How would we know?

Like maybe we haven't healed from this in the past.

Yeah.

You mean you don't even know that it happened to you?

If you don't know.

I mean,

Sometimes people just totally like screw us.

There's no other better word.

And we just go,

Oh,

Well,

Whatever.

And we blow it off.

Again,

It's kind of like you were saying,

We're so focused on mentally,

You know,

Moving forward,

Taking care of kids,

Going to work,

Whatever we're doing.

And we blow it off.

But really,

There's a deep wound there.

And it was a betrayal.

And you know what I mean?

And then we have these physical symptoms.

Like how do we unpack that?

How do we know maybe,

Gosh,

It is a betrayal?

Like,

How do we dig down and figure it out?

Right.

And that's what I love about the quiz,

Because it'll tell you.

I mean,

Those symptoms will just tell you.

But yeah,

If anybody has been blindsided and they just say,

Oh,

I'm okay.

No,

They're not.

Right.

That's what I'm talking about.

You're just not.

So that's a really,

I love if you have a positive attitude about it and you want to walk around thinking like I'm healed.

And the truth is,

When you do the work,

You absolutely can.

But if you keep running from it,

It will keep chasing you.

And there's that saying,

You have to feel it to heal it.

And when it comes to betrayal,

That's so true.

And the idea is,

It's not so you sit and you're miserable.

There's something called ruminating,

Which is where you're finding meaning,

Extracting meaning from the experience.

And then there's marinating,

Like where you're just stewing in it.

But avoiding is never going to be the answer.

So yes,

You want to find the meaning.

And one of the exercises that I have everybody do is write a code.

It's called write a coherent narrative.

And here's the actual and I asked them some very pointed questions.

And the idea is,

They're taking that story and making it that pivotal chapter in their story,

But not the whole story.

So writing like an empowering story,

You're saying something like that.

Well,

They're identifying everything that happened.

They're really extracting like what was the lesson learned,

What were the benefits.

And that's a hard thing,

Like benefits.

Someone just screwed me over so badly.

Benefit?

Yes,

There are.

Because if it taught you never to accept whatever again,

Or that you are so worthy and deserving,

Then it was a beautiful lesson.

That's what I experienced where I have a completely new marriage now that I never would have had,

Had that not happened.

Would you be willing to share a little bit of your story?

Because you've referenced it a few times and you've piqued my interest.

Wait a minute,

If you don't mind.

Yeah,

No,

No.

And I know the more I share it,

The more people heal.

So it is so true.

It's so interesting because for the first time for a long time,

I just I wasn't willing it was just so painful.

And I remember I forgot what thought leaders said it that your,

You know,

Your experience without the pain is wisdom.

And I remember thinking I want to get to that place of wisdom before I start talking.

Just right,

Right,

Right.

You know,

Because then I can I can speak from a different place.

And with my own experience,

I was transforming so much and truly,

It has to be that the old you no longer exists.

And I talk about the idea of death and rebirth.

And this is the old you the old relationship,

The old everything no longer exists.

And that's only where transformation can happen.

But I saw that with my husband,

Too.

And at first,

Of course,

I didn't believe it.

But my kids were like,

Mom,

He's so different.

And I was willing to lose everything.

You know,

I was like,

All right,

Let me just see what it's like now being a single mom and being on my own and with my kids.

And he lost everything.

And I guess that was the shock he needed to wake up.

And I needed my shock.

And I also remember,

You know,

I saw a spiritual counselor at the time who said,

Debbie,

You have no idea how you planned this.

Could you imagine hearing something like that when you're like in the throes of like the biggest heartbreak of your life?

And she said,

You needed something so catastrophic to crash and burn so you could heal and teach from a deep place of knowing.

And this is going to be your message.

And you're going to have this center and you're going to write these books.

And I'm like,

Yeah,

Right.

Everything she said has happened.

And for my husband,

Too,

He absolutely is so different.

And I believe it's only because the consequences were that big.

Wow.

And I really agree with you.

I feel like when these things happen to us,

It's always to make us stronger.

And I think we do plan a lot of this out ahead of time from a soul perspective.

Like if this happens and I'll be stronger,

But when we get so lost in the story and fall into victim and all of these things,

It's like we can't see what's true.

So wow,

That's incredible.

Yeah.

And I know this is not the case for everybody.

With a lot of people,

There's not an opportunity to have a second chance at that relationship.

You know,

I remember because I was trying to heal any which way I could.

And I saw a forgiveness coach.

I didn't even know they made those.

And I saw this forgiveness coach.

She said,

You know what's so interesting to me?

Everybody marries,

Of course,

For love,

But safety and security the first time around.

Then they get divorced.

Then their next relationship is all about helping each other grow.

I have never seen these two types of relationships with the same people.

And I think that was because we both woke up.

You know,

I was completely different.

And I remember thinking to myself,

If I am so unlike the version of me that I was,

Who am I to say that he's not totally different too?

And through the help of just he saw somebody too,

And a very intuitive person who became a dear friend.

And I mean,

His first visit with him,

He walked in and he,

You know,

And this guy looks and he goes,

Oh my God,

You were such a,

I won't even say the rest.

And said to me after Debbie,

I've been doing this for 26 years.

I have never seen anybody shift to this level from being that type of like egomaniac to somebody who all he wants to do is help other guys not go down that path to destroy their family and break people's hearts and all of that.

Wow.

Wow.

What a story.

My goodness.

So you talk about that we can either prevent or heal from a life crisis.

So what do you mean from that?

How can we prevent?

I'm really curious about that.

Yeah,

We can try.

And that's through,

You know,

There are healthy ways of preventing a life crisis.

And that would be like listening to the podcast like yours and eating healthy and exercising and nurturing your relationships and being with like-minded friends and sleeping and all that kind of stuff.

And then there are the unhealthy ways that we try to prevent a life crisis.

And that's where we do use food or we medicate ourselves or TV or something.

And what's happening here is something that used to feel good isn't feeling good anymore.

Something that used to work doesn't work.

Something that used to make sense doesn't make sense or something that we're doing this because we're not ready,

Willing or able to face something.

So we think we're going to use these different methods to just sort of keep it at bay.

But what happens is the voice gets louder and louder.

So the stakes get bigger and bigger.

You know,

So if you were what,

You know,

You were eating two cookies,

You're eating four.

If you were drinking one glass of wine,

Now it's two or three.

If you were watching a show,

Now you've been watching a whole series.

And we do this until we can't.

And then we're confronted with whatever it is that we were trying to avoid.

But you know,

What are the questions we can ask ourselves to see if we're numbing or avoiding or distracting ourselves?

Because so many of us don't know.

We don't know that we're even doing that.

We don't know.

You know,

We're so unaware.

Mm hmm.

You know,

We're just drinking all the wine or eating cookies.

We're snacking on sugar during whatever we're doing.

It's like we don't know that we are distracting.

Right.

Right.

And that's why these questions,

I mean,

They're eye opening,

But I invite everybody to write them down and,

You know,

Answer them.

It would be number one.

Am I numbing or distracting?

If so,

How?

Be honest with yourself.

Yeah.

The second one,

This is a hard one.

What am I pretending not to see?

Am I pretending not to see there's trouble in my marriage?

Am I pretending not to see I hate my job?

Am I pretending not to see that health issue that needs my attention?

That is a great question,

Debbie.

What am I pretending not to see?

The other thing that I realized that we all do as humans or a lot of us do is that when someone that loves us shares with us a truth that might not resonate.

So if someone says like,

Hey,

Are you paying attention to this?

Are you noticing this or that within yourself?

So many of us go,

No,

No,

No,

I'm fine.

Instead,

I think we really need to pay attention to what other people are sharing with us and pointing out for us because we're missing it.

You're so right.

You're so right.

And they're looking at it with objective eyes where we're just we're not able we're not or maybe not willing to see.

No,

It's hard to see ourselves,

I think.

Oh,

Sure.

Unless we have really,

Really,

Really raised awareness.

It's hard.

And we need other people to mirror for us.

What the heck is going on?

What's going on within me?

Yeah,

And we need to strengthen our intuition.

We don't need to turn it down.

We need to turn it up.

And I remember a mentor saying,

I love this.

Your gut is 10,

000 times more powerful than your mind.

So here you get a message that's so spot on.

And then your mind talks you out of it.

So,

Yeah,

And there's two more questions if you want me to.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Okay.

So the second question is,

What am I pretending not to see?

The next one is,

What's life going to look like in five to 10 years if I keep this going?

Oh,

That's a good one,

Too.

So imagine you avoid that health issue for five to 10 years.

What's that going to look like?

You're now not doing anything about that job that you hate.

Now you're out of the market another five to 10 years.

What's that going to look like?

Your relationship that had that issue five to 10 years,

You ignore it.

What's going to happen there?

And then the last one,

What could life look like in five to 10 years if I make changes now?

Now that doesn't mean they're easy,

But what could life look like?

Let's say you do something about that health issue.

Yes,

Maybe it's scary,

But maybe you save your life,

Right?

With that relationship,

Yeah,

Maybe you need to shake things up in the most radical way,

But maybe now you have a partnership that you love or not,

Or with that job.

Is it scary to now start doing something different than you were doing?

Maybe,

But maybe now you're doing the work you love or the work that you're meant to do.

Yeah.

Oh,

I love that because we get so stuck in where we are,

We can't even think about what's coming in one year,

Five years,

Five days even,

But to really launch out and say,

Okay,

What could my life look like?

Yeah.

And that's the thing.

I mean,

Crisis does it for us,

Or I have something that I teach called a self-induced life crisis.

And this is where we bring it on.

And the universe wants change,

Either you change or something will happen to change for us.

Yeah.

This is all such great information.

I love it all.

I think you've already answered this,

But what do we need to do to move forward to heal from a betrayal experience?

I think you've answered that already though.

Yeah.

My best question for you.

You have to acknowledge it.

You have to acknowledge it.

And even if you have some symptoms,

See if they could be tied back to that betrayal.

But the first step is seeing what it was.

And if you do not learn the lesson you were supposed to learn,

It will only get louder and louder.

Like here's an example.

I was working with a woman and she just went from just one horrible relationship to another,

To another.

And it just gets worse,

You know,

Because there is this lesson that needed to be learned and she just refused.

And when we don't do the work,

We're counting on somebody else to fill that need and it's got to be within.

It just has to.

So nobody on the outside could ever fill what we need to fill in the inside.

And she just,

So then what happens?

Of course,

The mother of all betrayals.

And then she said,

I will never accept this again.

Now when I see this,

That's a red flag.

I will only do whatever again.

Lesson learned.

Beautiful.

That lesson and that the betrayer,

That was a gift because look what she learned because of it.

I have a question for you.

So it sounds like,

Or I'm wondering if you found a correlation with this,

The stronger the self-esteem or the higher the self worth,

Was there a correlation between those two things and the willingness to move on through this betrayal and start really transforming yourself?

That's such a great question.

I would say,

Cause I'm looking at the women I studied and it seemed like a low self-confidence was one of the reasons why,

Because they all said,

You know,

I kind of thought something wasn't right,

But you know,

I just didn't pay attention or whatever.

And with more confidence,

Maybe they would have caught something.

They would have spoken up.

They would have,

Or they wouldn't have accepted,

You know,

Something once they found out about their betrayal.

Confidence has so much to do with it.

So much to do with it.

So yeah,

It's definitely healing.

Healing from betrayal.

It's a force.

I mean,

You need support because it takes a tremendous amount of work.

And if you don't think you have the ability or the strength or the confidence,

You're going to stay with all those small self benefits that we talked about earlier,

Because you're looking at it like,

Well,

I'm getting all this pity and all this just self pity or whatever I'm receiving.

And you think that's as good as it's getting,

But someone with confidence says,

Screw that.

I want something so much more.

Exactly.

So,

Yeah.

So,

So is it,

So it's true then people with higher self-confidence or self-esteem might,

I don't know the word I want to use,

Transform them,

Transform from this,

Or I guess stay in the story less and less than somebody that would have.

Am I making sense?

Like,

Yeah,

If I have a lower self-esteem,

Let's say,

Or I don't feel very good about myself,

I might circle the drain and say,

And my victim a lot longer than somebody that really loves themselves and says,

I'm destroyed by this,

But you know what?

I know I can move forward.

And yeah,

No,

Absolutely.

And also it's that it's when the pain of where you are gets worse than the fear of the unknown.

That's when you jump.

And that's when you're willing.

Yeah.

So,

I asked you this in the very,

In the beginning,

I think,

But I want to ask you again.

So obviously we can trust again,

But is there some magic thing that we need to do in order to trust again?

Because I do get asked this question quite a bit.

Like I'll never be able to trust anybody again because the closest person in my life hurt me so badly.

I am done.

Yeah,

You absolutely can.

And I'm living proof.

I'm not saying it's easy.

I look at trust like a brick wall.

You know,

It could take 40,

50 years to be put up brick by brick by brick taken down in moments.

So how is it put up again?

Brick by brick by brick.

And it just,

It's not a magical thing that all of a sudden one day that brick wall is built again.

It's not,

It takes time.

And I really recommend,

You know,

You may have to start so small with something like,

Can I trust that the sun will rise each day?

And when you see,

Well,

You know what,

Let's just see,

Cause I don't know.

And then you see that it does,

You could at least trust.

Okay,

That's okay.

Now can I trust myself if I say I'm going to do something and then I do it?

And then you start building trust in yourself again,

Or you start having,

You know,

Just trusting your intuition a little bit more.

And when you've built trust in something so small and then you've rebuilt trust in yourself,

Then you start thinking your BS meter is a little bit stronger,

You know,

Your intuition is sharpened and then you can start sniffing out,

You know,

Can I trust this person?

Can I cautiously,

But carefully trust this person?

Because if you just decide and you have every right to decide whatever you want,

But if you decide I've been betrayed,

I'm never trusting anyone again,

That's a half lived life.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You deserve so much more.

So is it scary?

Yes.

But can you do it?

Of course,

Just carefully.

And it takes time.

I like that you're starting out with like,

Is the sun going to rise?

You know,

Is this going to happen?

It's not having anything to do with another human.

And then you move to yourself.

Can I trust that I'm going to follow through?

And then you start trusting other people.

I like that.

That's really good.

Slow and steady.

Slow and steady.

One day at a time.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

This was awesome.

Is there anything else that you'd like to add?

You know,

I would just say healing is so possible.

I never would have thought it if I'm not living proof myself.

And I mean,

Here,

Look at it like this.

I mean,

To do the study,

Experience this post betrayal transformation.

I mean,

Here I am at the PBT Institute.

This never would have happened had that not happened.

My business is entirely new.

Everything I'm doing is entirely new,

All because of the biggest crisis that ever came my way.

So it's when you take that hardest lesson and you use it for good.

Because I look at it like otherwise,

You know,

You just took a hit for no reason.

You know,

And maybe it's selfish,

But even with my own betrayal,

I said,

It's not even enough for me to rebuild my marriage and my family.

If I'm going to heal from the injustice of something that is so totally wrong to me,

I'm going to help heal as many women on the planet as I can.

So it's just so possible.

So do you also work with men?

Because I've heard you say women.

Do you work with men that have also been betrayed?

You know,

It's mostly women,

But it's so interesting you say that because recently so many men have been taking the quiz.

So I'm starting with women only because that's what the study was about.

And men may experience it a little bit differently.

But I'm looking at their quiz results and their scores,

And they're scoring just as high,

If not higher than a lot of the women.

So they're absolutely struggling too.

Yeah,

Because I would think a betrayal is a betrayal if you're a man or a woman.

So okay,

We can send both men and women to the quiz.

Yes.

Sure.

All right.

Well,

Gosh,

This was amazing.

Much,

Much needed information for all of us.

So thank you.

Thank you so much for sharing with us today.

Thank you.

So where can people find you?

Where is this quiz?

Tell us.

Just go right to it's PBT is in post betrayal transformation,

PBT Institute com forward slash quiz.

Okay.

And where is there anything else that you wanted to share with us as far as where people can find you?

Yeah,

I would say just just go there.

And really,

I mean,

I know how heartbreaking and soul crushing this is some days you feel like you can't even breathe.

I get it.

But healing is not only possible,

Now it's predictable.

Awesome.

Well,

Thank you.

Thank you,

Miss Debbie.

It was great.

Thank you.

Thank you for helping us to transform our betrayal today.

And everybody go to this website,

PBT Institute com forward slash quiz and take that quiz.

All right,

Debbie.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the adult chair.

Thank you.

All right,

Everybody,

I told you that was going to be a great show.

Debbie obviously knows her stuff about betrayal.

She was amazing.

And don't forget,

Go to PBT Institute com forward slash quiz to take her quiz.

And her website is a wealth of information.

So be sure to check her out.

And for more information,

Again,

On the show,

Go to the adult chair.

Com and hit us both up on Instagram.

We'd love to hear what you think about this show.

Let us know.

I am at Michelle dot shell font ch al FNT and of course,

Debbie,

Debbie silver,

Go check her out as well.

And I thank you so much for listening to the show.

And I will see you seated here in the adult chair next week on Valentine's Day.

I'll see you next week.

Have a beautiful week,

Everybody.

Reviews

Really great advice

This is a gem! Thank you.

this is so powerful and helpful. i’ve been very stuck around an unexpected betrayal and i want to move on. thank you for the step by step tools

Excellent, really shed light on my personal situation and where I am right now.

I learned valuable lessons in this podcast.

Very insightful podcast thank you 😊

So helpful and informative. It’s great to know that there are stages and that there is life beyond betrayal. Thank you both. 😊

Great information. Very helpful. thank you

Thank you~infinity ♾😊 I’m in the midst of fresh betrayal & carrying stale betrayal. I’m mostly bedridden & housebound with serious chronic illness. Y’all gave me a lot to chew on. 🙏🏼❤️

Another powerful podcast! Radical!

Great! Thank you.