Overcoming Grief With Compassion

What helps us grieve? Join me in this conversation with Emily Threatt, as she shares her story about losing, not one but two of her husbands and how grief leads her to find compassion for herself and others. She has now established a community to help others through their grief.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Loving Compassion podcast with Giselle.

We believe loving compassion really has the power to transform our lives in our world.

Our guest Emily Thoreau Threat is the author of the book,

Living and Loving Your Way Through Grief,

A comprehensive guide to reclaiming and cultivating joy and carrying on in the face of loss,

Published by Mangle Publishing.

Her book is the winner of the Book Authority's best new grief book,

And the silver medal for the Living Now book awards.

Hi,

Emily.

Aloha,

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Oh,

Thank you so much for being here.

I want to start by asking you if you could share with our listeners a little bit about your journey with grief.

Well,

I,

I can do that.

I've had so much grief in my life and so many different situations that parents,

Family members,

Friends,

Lots of things.

But most recently,

I have had my husband died,

And then my husband before him also died.

So that's,

That's where I've been with all this grieving.

And I,

When the first husband died,

I was kind of a mess.

I was trying really hard to figure out what to do.

And it took me a while.

And it was quite a journey to get to a point where I felt kind of okay again.

So I never thought I'd get married again.

I was I was very surprised that that I met somebody and we fell in love and eventually did get married.

And then he got very sick and died.

Both husbands ironically died of the same thing.

So I lived life differently though,

With my husband who was most recent to die,

Because he very much believed in living in the moment.

And that just changed everything for me.

I thought,

Wow,

I wish I could have lived my whole life this way.

Because I can be happy in the moment,

Where when I was just thinking about grieving,

It seemed like everything was dark and sad.

But when I would shift back into the moment and stay there,

Then I found great happiness there.

And I started writing.

I'm a writer.

I've written for many years I have taught writing still do actually at the university level for many,

Many years.

And I have written several college textbooks.

So for me,

It was just natural to turn to writing to help me deal with my own grief.

And I was just writing for me.

But the more I wrote,

The more it helped me.

And I thought,

Gee,

I can help other people by showing them how to do this too.

So that's kind of where my my grief path has taken me.

And now I do all kinds of things.

I did write a book.

I have my own podcast called grief and happiness.

I have an organization that I founded called the grief and happiness Alliance that meets every week on zoom where it's just peer to peer doing writing exercises and learning happiness practices.

And I can honestly say,

I'm happier now than I ever have been.

And I'm I was kind of surprised when I realized that.

But it's really true.

Wow,

What an extraordinary story.

Thank you for sharing that.

For most people,

It's really difficult to deal with,

You know,

Like the loss of maybe one husband,

But to to lose a second partner and like you said,

Other people in your life.

What do you think really helped you get to the point where you could,

As you say in your book,

Love and live through grief,

Like instead of what some people do,

Which is basically bury themselves with the person they've lost?

Right?

Yes.

Well,

For me,

After Jacques died,

He was my first husband who died.

And after he died,

I,

I really didn't know what to do.

And I spent so much time just alone.

I did go back to work at the university teaching and I would go teach my class and come home and sit.

I wasn't doing anything wasn't reading wasn't talking to anybody seeing anybody.

And I was so relieved when I was able to start working my way out of that hole that I seem to be have fallen into.

So I knew when Ron died,

I thought about it a lot with an anticipatory grief,

They call it before he died.

I thought I'm not going to that same place again,

Because I'm,

It was not helpful.

It was incredibly unpleasant.

And I thought I could I can do better than that.

And with focusing on living in the moment,

That really helped me to kind of transform my life into a whole different way of living into appreciating everything,

Seeing the beauty and everything,

Finding a love and everything.

And even even when you think there's nothing there to be happy about,

You can find something if you really look at it.

Yeah,

You mentioned such powerful things such as mindfulness,

Which is really like you mentioned being in the present moment,

But also gratitude,

Right?

Being grateful for every moment.

What helped you during those times when it was challenging to either be mindful or grateful?

That's interesting that you would say that because gratitude is always the first thing I talk about with that is when I had friends after Jacques died at one point,

Two different friends came to me and said,

You've got to do something.

You can't just stay where you are.

And both of them suggested that I watched the movie The Secret.

And I thought,

Doesn't sound like my kind of thing,

But I'll try and I watched it with kind of a chip on my shoulder and wasn't sure it was really for me.

But it the end,

I it said to write a list of things you were grateful for.

And I found that kind of puzzling because I thought I don't have anything to be grateful for my husband died.

And then I thought,

You know,

I had two different people tell me about this.

I need to pay attention.

So I thought I'll just try writing a list.

Once I started writing that list,

It was it was like a firehose.

I just kept finding more and more things.

And I was I was shocked because here I went into it thinking I don't have anything to be grateful for.

But when I write what I was grateful for,

And why,

Then I think of something else I was grateful for.

And right now,

And I got to the point where I was carrying a notebook in my purse,

Because I didn't want to lose something that I thought of it.

And I wasn't home by my journal where I'd been writing.

And the more I did that,

The more I smiled,

And the better that I felt.

And it was like it opened the door for me to be able to see the world still out there,

My life,

I'm still alive,

You know,

I still can experience things.

And I want to,

I didn't even realize I wanted to before I started writing all this gratitude.

But it was amazing,

The power of doing that.

And to this day,

I still write in my journal every day,

Things that I'm grateful for.

And for me,

The kind of irony in that is I don't beat myself.

You know,

I could see how you fall into a rut of saying,

I'm grateful for where I live,

Or I'm grateful for my family,

Or that sort of thing.

But I just keep getting more specific and finding more things.

And it's quite wonderful,

Actually.

It is wonderful.

It is very wonderful.

And what a great strategy for people to kind of shift out of that the perspective of like,

I've lost to one of like,

You know,

I have wonderful memories.

And I'm grateful for the experiences that I have now,

Because everything in life is limited,

Right?

Like everything in life,

You know,

Comes and goes,

Everything is in flux.

What do you say to those people that,

For example,

Feel guilty about moving on,

Or feeling grateful?

The reason why I asked this question is because,

You know,

Especially in particular cultures,

Like say,

Hispanic culture,

Italian culture,

There's like a level of expectation that you were the black that you,

You know,

You not show yourself that you're not show too much joy,

Because then if then it's almost like you're celebrating the person died.

What do you say to those people?

Well,

I,

I realized that it wasn't that I was moving on so much as moving forward.

And I,

One of the things that I have learned a lot about in this process has been forgiveness.

And I had to start forgiving people when they would say something stupid.

For instance,

I had,

I was very active in the community,

And my husband was too.

And there were some events coming up after he died that I thought,

Gee,

I'd like to go to those,

But I don't want to go by myself.

And I'll just stay home.

And then a mutual friend of my husband's and my friend called me and he said,

You know,

Fine.

I know,

There's some things coming up that you'd really like to go to.

And if you don't go by,

If you don't want to go by yourself,

I would be happy to escort you.

It's not a date.

It's not anything else.

I just want to be there for you.

And I thought,

That's really cool.

So I said,

Yes.

And I kind of surprised myself that I said,

Yes,

But I did.

And the first are actually the main event that we went to because it took me a while to do anything after this happened.

The first time we did that,

We were we didn't,

It's not like we were standing close to each other or holding hands or making eyes at each other.

We weren't sending out signals that we were together,

You know,

At all.

But he was having a conversation with somebody else.

And I could hear the people behind me talking.

And,

You know,

What other people think isn't my business,

But it I still overheard the conversation.

And they were saying,

Can you believe that she's out dating already?

Your husband's barely dead?

How could she do that?

That's so respectful to her husband.

And I felt like turning around and slapping them both.

That's not me.

I would never do that.

But oh my gosh,

It just broke my heart.

And I was getting teary.

And so I asked my friend to take me home and he did.

I'm not sure I even told him what happened or why because I didn't want him to feel bad about it.

And I realized that that bothered me terribly.

And the more I thought about it,

The more it bothered me.

And I finally got to the point where I said,

This isn't serving me.

Why am I dwelling on this?

It's,

You know,

Their ignorance and not really knowing the whole story and speaking out of turn.

And I thought,

Well,

That sounds judgmental.

So I realized that I was judging them.

Here.

I was upset with them judging me,

But it was actually the other way around.

I was judging them.

And when I realized that I said,

Okay,

I have to forgive myself.

It's not them.

No,

I need to forgive.

But I kind of felt like I did.

And I did forgive them.

But but the big deal was to forgive myself for thinking that way because they didn't know what they were saying.

They didn't know my circumstances.

They didn't know how I was feeling.

They didn't know that it wasn't a date.

Yeah,

They didn't know.

And once I actually forgave them,

I did this in writing because I write in my journal a lot.

And there's something about the process of writing something down like that that makes it seem real.

And so I wrote it all out.

And when I finished writing it,

I put my pen down.

I just felt like this wave come over me if things are better.

You know,

I just felt like I could take a deep breath.

I could smile.

I could go out in public again.

I didn't have to hide because somebody might say something like that.

And then I was okay.

I didn't do anything wrong.

And I forgave myself for the thoughts that I had that weren't really true.

I really had to ask myself that they were true.

And so I use that as kind of a baseline from then on for if I'd start to slip into something like that,

I'd stop and go,

Okay,

Is this really true?

Am I making this up?

You know,

Are and if if it is true,

And they are saying things like that,

It's their problem.

It's not my problem.

And I don't need to accept it.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

I totally agree with you.

You know what people think of me as their business,

Right?

And I love that,

That you were able to,

Like you acknowledge the fact that you had these feelings and that they were there in you use the strategy in your case writing,

To be able to allow yourself to just let it pass 12.

So allow it rather than resist it and say,

Oh,

No,

I shouldn't be having this.

You allowed it to pass and then you can,

You were actually able to shift out of it,

Right,

Which I think is really,

Really,

Really powerful.

And forgiveness is is it's really a gift you give to yourself in your community.

Do you encounter people that maybe perhaps have forgiveness to do of self if there was maybe if the relationship was conflictual before the person passed away?

Were there any in what do you find helps those individuals?

Well,

That I do see that sort of thing all the time with the different people that come to my group or ask me questions and things,

Because people just feel terribly guilty about things.

I can give you an example of my daughter actually,

Because my parents didn't live in the same town where we lived.

And they drove through town one day and called and said,

Can you meet us for lunch?

I said,

Sure.

And I called the kids to see if they can come to and my daughter showed up for just a minute because she was busy doing something else.

But she wanted to say hi to him.

And she did.

And she left.

Well,

Not long after that,

My dad died.

Suddenly,

We weren't anticipating at all.

And she felt so guilty about not having told him that she loved him the last time she saw him.

And I said,

You showed up that you know,

That's what they wanted.

They wanted to see you.

You don't the end,

They knew that you love them.

You don't have to carry that.

But she did carry it for a while.

It took her a while to get past that.

And she tells me all the time that she loves me.

I think she keeps thinking,

This might be the last time I get to say it.

She might go tomorrow.

I was thinking more in terms of the the people that are war unveiling.

So for example,

If you had a negative relationship with your spouse,

And they died,

There might be an element of relief that there might be that death.

But at the same time,

There might be like a guilt or loss or that people might experience the ambivalence can be a bit of a tough one,

Right?

Yeah,

That can be really hard.

And one of the ones I've,

I've noticed that people really struggle with is if their loved one is dealing with a long term situation.

Yeah.

And especially if they're caring for their loved one in the process,

And their loved one,

When they die,

They they feel a sense of relief.

And they feel terribly guilty that they feel relieved that their loved one isn't there anymore.

And it's it's really a process of walking through that with them helping them see what they did for their loved one,

How they made their loved one's life better just through their their presence,

Whether they were actively doing caregiving or not,

That they were there for them,

And the importance of that.

And if you can help help them try to see things from a different perspective,

That can make a big difference.

But there are other times too,

When you know,

Somebody,

They get in a fight,

And somebody storms out,

And they happen to get in an accident and they get killed.

Yeah.

And they,

Then that person will carry that guilt for a long time,

Because they said,

Well,

If we wouldn't have gotten in the accident,

He wouldn't have stormed out,

He wouldn't have been in that situation at that time.

And they can they can make up things.

Yeah.

And then beat themselves up over that.

And that's,

That's a,

That's a real sad trap to get sucked into or allow yourself to get sucked into.

So it gets back to that thing about asking yourself if,

If what you're worrying about,

Or sad about is the truth.

And Byron Katie is somebody who's written something called the work.

And what she asks you to do,

She's got a set of four questions,

And you can you can look her up online,

Just if you look up the work online,

You'll find this.

And the first thing is,

You ask yourself if it's true.

And a lot of times,

If you just can discover that what you're saying maybe is something you assumed,

Or something that you made up that if you can release that realizing it,

It probably isn't true.

And don't don't make yourself have fault in what it was doing.

You didn't do that.

I had a friend once who he lived in a different town that we were in,

And we had gone to something together.

And he had a little bit too much to drink.

And so we said,

Come back to our house,

You know,

Spend the night,

Stay here,

Have some coffee,

You know,

And he stayed for a couple hours and drink quite a bit of coffee.

And then he said he was going home.

And I said,

Please don't go home,

Please just stay here with us.

It's not a big deal.

It's an hour away,

You get up first thing in the morning and get there in plenty of time.

And he didn't.

And he didn't get home.

And when we got the phone call that said he'd been killed in an accident,

I was devastated,

Because I thought I let him go out that door.

And it took me a while to let myself off the hook for that,

Because I really had done everything that was in my power to make a difference with bringing to my house,

You know,

Keeping them there as long as we could keep them giving them all kinds of coffee,

Doing all that sort of thing.

I don't think anybody realized how much he had to drink or how much of it was just he was really tired,

Because it was a really long day and the combination that he just fell asleep.

And we'll never know.

And it took me a while to not feel guilty about his death.

But I finally got to the point where I started asking myself,

Is that true?

Did I do that to him?

And I know I didn't.

He made his own decision.

It was a wrong decision.

But it was his choice.

And he did do that on his own.

So I miss him.

I'm sad that he's not with us anymore.

And I did all that I could do.

And I forgave myself for anything I thought I should have done that I didn't because I you know,

I was making up all kinds of stories.

So once once I got past that,

I will never say that I'm happy that he died.

But I no longer take any responsibility for his passing.

And I,

You know,

I had to actively work on it,

If I would have just let my mind run away with that forever and not not examined it.

Not tried to figure out what to do,

I could have been a mess.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And forgiveness is such a powerful act of self compassion,

Right?

Absolutely.

So we have a different perspective on death,

We believe that we are spiritual beings living the human life.

And that these human lives are chapters in the larger scheme of,

I guess,

Events,

And where we find it really helpful is that we see kind of the 3d human experience as experiential,

Right?

So you know,

Like,

You and I decided that we were going to do this together,

You know,

Let's say,

You know,

In this life,

I decide to be kind of quote unquote,

What you would call your enemy,

In order so that I may help you really step up into your power and say,

No,

I'm gonna give you boundaries.

But when we cross over,

We're like,

Hey,

Milly,

Well,

You know,

The soul cannot be destroyed from our perspective,

It cannot be harmed.

And so we also believe that souls choose when they choose to transition,

Which can be a challenging thought for people.

And so from our perspective,

Death is a celebration,

It might be a new beginning.

And it's really challenging just for the human beings that are remaining here that miss the being,

Although we feel you could tap into,

You know,

You could talk to them still,

And you know,

Maybe don't get a word response,

But you get responses in other ways.

What is what's your perspective on crossing over passing?

It's similar to yours,

Actually,

I I'll give you an example.

And that when I got together with Ron,

After Jacques died,

I had a hard time being in more than just a friendship with him.

Because although traditional wedding vows,

They tell death to you part,

I didn't feel unmarried after he died.

And so I felt a little bit guilty with going out with Ron.

So friend,

But,

You know,

And then one day,

Ron said something about my ex-husband.

And I said,

Oh,

No,

You can't call him that.

You just can't call him that we had a big discussion about that.

But it also kind of opened up my eyes to that too.

And we did end up getting married.

I'm very glad that we did.

And in that went very well.

And now I I write I told you I journal every day.

And one of the things that I do is say good morning to everything I want to say good morning to and I say,

Good morning to Ron and Jacques.

And when I first started writing that in my journal,

I thought,

Wow,

Because I could see both of them being jealous over me being with somebody else.

But that was actually just kind of a fleeting thought because I thought,

Now I can feel different times where where their presence is very important to me.

And because you're in such a different different space,

I don't know exactly how to describe that different things can happen.

And,

For instance,

A few months ago,

I was in in a car accident.

And it was terrifying.

I was going up a highway divided highway and somebody in a truck was coming down the divided highway.

And he just suddenly went across the center divider and was headed directly at me very fast directly at my driver's side of my door.

And I was looking forward.

So I didn't see it until he was just almost hitting me.

And my son was in the front seat.

And he I don't even know we exclaimed or something.

I turned my head just in time to see and I slammed on the brakes and close my eyes because I thought I don't want to watch this.

Yeah.

And I felt that bump when he came into the car.

And I thought to that didn't feel very hard for as fast as he was coming.

It was obvious he was in downhill.

And he was just standing there.

And so I finally was able to open my eyes.

And there was damage done to my car,

But his truck wasn't there.

And I looked out and I could see he had pulled way down the road to pull over because he was going into oncoming traffic.

And there were those guardrails on the center divider.

He crossed right before the guardrails,

But he couldn't get off of the highway till he got to the end of the guardrail.

So he was way down and I saw him get out of his truck and he was just fine.

And people stopped and came up to me and said,

Are you all right?

And I said,

I think so.

And they said,

We can't believe you're alive,

Because they we had so many witnesses that saw this happen.

And I thought,

You know what?

Somebody turned that car away.

It wasn't when I was supposed to be going because it wasn't anything that I did.

It wasn't anything that the driver did that prevented that from being a horrendous accident.

And I just feel like there's there.

People who love me are seeing like when when I need protection,

Or when they can support me in something I'm doing.

I'll give you another specific example.

Yeah,

When I told you that I found a Grief and Happiness Alliance,

Which is a group that meets weekly.

And I thought it was such a good idea that I thought,

I'm not going to just start this without knowing that somebody is going to be there if it's going to work.

So I did a pilot program.

And I had quite a few people that I knew from one reason or another,

Across the country,

Actually,

In this pilot program,

Where we talked about what I thought would be a good idea to do.

Then I did a sample meeting for them.

And then another week,

We came back and talked about,

Okay,

How how are we going to do this,

And we don't want people to pay,

They ended up deciding to create a nonprofit organization to fund everything so that people didn't have to pay for this kind of help,

Which just thrilled me to death.

And it at the end of the meeting,

One of the people who had been coming is most charming lady,

She was just I never saw her not smiling.

She was kind,

She was always offering great suggestions to other people.

She was a minister,

Too.

And at the end of the meeting,

There was like a little silence.

And then she came out with this big deep voice that didn't even sound like her in very stern,

A very,

Oh,

I can't think of the words like she this,

This was the truth that she was speaking.

And she said,

This is an idea whose time has come,

Which is that it's slow and powerfully like that.

Wow.

It didn't sound like she was talking,

You know,

In two days later,

She died.

And it hit me pretty hard,

Because she'd been so helpful to me with all the stuff that I was doing.

And I thought,

Am I really doing the right thing by creating this alliance?

Is this you know,

I thought,

Okay,

I'm just going to write a letter to Ron.

That's,

That's one thing that I do.

All right,

A letter to whoever I think is most appropriate for me to Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Which is one of our spong lives at the moment.

And it was wrong for this one who also was a minister.

So I figured they'd be linked to some well.

And I started writing this stuff.

You know,

I think I've got a good idea.

I think I should be doing this.

And,

And she said this on Sunday.

And I just wish you were here.

So you could tell me what I'm supposed to be doing.

And loud and clear.

I heard him say,

I already told you on Sunday.

Oh,

That's so powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh,

That's so powerful.

So powerful.

And it's so needed,

Because I think one of the things you had mentioned to me is how lonely the journey of grief really is,

And how important it is.

And people may not always have family,

They may not always have supports that are that they may consider supportive.

So to have a group like yours that they can be able to go to,

And say,

We understand because the other piece is sometimes people don't understand that.

Why,

You know,

If you lose your partner,

I know,

People are like,

Oh,

I'll move on with your life.

And you know,

Like they mean,

Well,

It's not that people don't mean us don't mean to love us.

It's just they don't may not know how to support us to have a group of people that you can come together and say,

Oh,

You understand what this is like,

You understand maybe the stages of grief,

Or what may help me or how we can support each other.

So I think it's definitely a beautiful,

Beautiful group to have.

Definitely.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna ask sort of a little bit of a leaning question and this is about suicide,

Because I don't know,

I'm sure a lot of people that you have worked with,

Maybe parents of kids that have committed suicide,

Or maybe friends of kids that have committed suicide,

What's your perspective?

And how can we assist,

You know,

Loved ones whose families who might have crossed over due to suicide?

That's an interesting question.

And one of the things I noticed in the way you were asking about it is that you referred mostly to young people doing it.

And people of all ages do.

Yeah.

But we're noticing it right now.

Because I think a lot because of the pandemic,

Because there were so many young people that couldn't cope with the thought of never being able to leave their house again.

Yeah.

It was a time in their life where they just couldn't cope and the parents were just shocked when the suicides happened because they were doing the best they could and they didn't realize the depths of their their child or whoever it was the depths of feelings that they were having.

Yeah.

And the thing about someone you you know,

Someone you love doesn't have to be related to you.

But in anybody who you know,

Who has died by suicide,

Which is,

I've learned that's the way you say it now as opposed to committed because committed shows that they really intended to do something and they might not have really intended to do it.

So that's a way that you're not maliciously but judging the person when you say commit suicide.

So I always try to say died by suicide.

And if you have a loved one is who has died by suicide.

I believe the place to start that can help you more than anything else is to forgive yourself.

And you may not have done anything that you think had anything to do with leading to this suicide.

And at the same time,

Your monkey mind is probably telling you that you did.

And so you have to not have to I shouldn't say that it would be good for you to look at that to examine that and forgive yourself knowing that that you're probably was nothing that you could have done to make any difference and not judge the person who died by suicide for the choices that they made or the accident that they had that led to it because it could be they weren't trying to but that's what the results were.

So it's another really big case for forgiveness.

Yeah.

Sounds like I'm saying the same thing all the time between gratitude and forgiveness.

But really,

That's the big thing here.

And these are powerful things.

And these are things that actually do help us be more loving and compassionate to ourselves.

Forgiveness is so so powerful in gratitude.

Thank you for clarifying about committing suicide.

I didn't know so I appreciate that.

The other piece that I'm thankful for is you're correct.

There are,

But I guess I don't know if our do you think our perspectives are different about older people that commit suicide,

But you're right,

There are a number of people,

Some through assisted suicide,

Older people who commit suicide,

But I think maybe we'll have a different perspective,

Or maybe I have a different perspective when it comes to young people versus older people.

Yeah,

It just seems like we hear about the young people the most.

But what what I hear more frequently than I would like to is about the spouse who is left behind.

Because boy did they judge themselves,

They're positive that it's their fault.

And frequently,

Sometimes they don't,

But frequently,

That's what happens and it they read,

It's important to work on that.

And the thing that you were talking about the assisted suicide,

I think is is something that we need to normalize in society.

Whenever I hear somebody talking about how they have their beloved pet put to sleep because they couldn't bear to see them suffer,

I thought that you let your mom suffer.

You let your your wife suffer,

Whoever it is,

Suffer unbearably,

Incredibly,

Because you don't think it's right to take their life,

But you think it's okay to take the life of a pet.

And it's not you taking their life,

They are choosing to stop suffering.

And it's very important to look at it that way.

I've actually known people who have died with by assistance,

Because of their situation.

And there's there's something now that I only heard about the last couple of years,

That's the SED,

I think it's called voluntarily stopping eating and drinking.

And it's it's a way that somebody who has,

They either feel like they're old enough,

They lived enough,

They lived enough,

Or they do have a disease thing going on or injury thing growing on.

That is so painful that they're choosing to not live in that discomfort anymore.

Whether it's emotional or physical discomfort,

They're consciously making that choice.

And when that happens,

I think it's incumbent on us to not judge them for it.

It's none of our business.

Whatever it is,

Even if it's your parent or your your spouse or whoever it is,

It's their business,

We can't possibly know how they're feeling.

And I know I've had things in my life that were incredibly physically painful because of something that happened.

And and for me,

I I never would have thought of it for that.

But I've seen people that die these slow lingering deaths that go,

You know,

They can be sick for years and falling apart ALS,

For example,

Where your brain's there and your brain's okay,

But your body just doesn't function anymore doesn't serve you at all.

And it's a great responsibility for somebody else to be able to care for you.

And if you choose to not live under those circumstances,

I think that's your choice.

It's not up to me or anybody else to judge somebody else's pain,

Somebody else's disability,

Somebody else's illness.

It it's not up to us.

I agree.

And going back to our conversation about spirit,

Right,

If you perceive that spirits can never be broken,

They're just choosing to exit out of this particular 3d perspective.

And you know,

You see,

You said one thing that is really,

Really important,

Which is about judgment.

You know,

Like in this world,

We have so much judgment,

We judge ourselves,

We judge each other,

And really compassion is really about moving past the judgment to curiosity,

You don't know what's going on for people who want to,

You know,

Choose the assisted,

You don't know what's going on for people who died by suicide.

So it's really is about how do we wrap around like in your community?

How do you wrap around people?

And how can we show up for one another so that we can be there for each other?

Rather than saying,

You know,

You should be doing that,

Or should be doing this or the other.

So,

So thank you for that reminder.

You're welcome.

Yeah,

I know that.

Sometimes things happen like with with Ron,

He and I live in Maui.

And he had lived here for years before I met him.

We came here on our honeymoon,

And then kept coming back.

And he still had friends from many,

Many years ago when he lived here.

And I never saw the island as a tourist.

I always saw the real beauty and Ohana spirit and aloha spirit of the island.

And when two years before he died,

He said,

I really want to go and live on Maui again.

And I knew what he was saying when he said that.

So we just sold everything and moved,

Which was a big deal.

I thought I was in my forever home with all my stuff.

And all that had to change.

But often now,

I'll look around where I live now.

And I'll think,

You know,

Ron set this up for me.

So that he knew when he was gone,

I would be in a beautiful place with people around me who love them,

Supported me in a way that I never found on the mainland.

I was counting up how many different places that I'd lived in my lifetime the other day.

Wow,

That's a lot.

I never had neighbors and friends,

Any place I've lived before,

That are like they are here.

Ohana is the word for family in Hawaii.

And it's also used for your chosen family.

And I have a bigger Ohana here than I've ever had in my life.

And I know he set this up for me.

See,

He knew he wasn't going to be here,

But he wanted me to be in a good place that was good for me and good for the people around me.

So powerful.

Yeah.

So final question,

Can you share with the audience what exciting things you're doing?

Where can people find you?

Where can they go and check out your group?

You can also talk a little bit about your podcast.

Okay,

My podcast is grief and happiness.

And I it comes out weekly.

And it's mostly guests.

Sometimes I just talk myself,

But there's so many wonderful people to talk to about so many different things in different perspectives on grief and happiness,

Because I always want to focus on happiness.

And then the the grief and happiness Alliance meets every week.

And you can contact me,

I'd be happy to send you the link so that you can sign up.

And my book is loving and living your way through grief.

It's traditionally published,

So it can be purchased any place.

And the thing that's unique about my book is I read so many books on on grieving when I was trying to figure out what I shouldn't be doing or could be doing.

And most of them were mostly memoirs.

And I didn't want it to be that I wanted it to be something people could actively use.

And so at the end of each chapter,

There are suggestions of how you can implement something like this,

A chapter on gratitude,

This chapter on forgiveness and on judgment.

And at the end of the chapter,

There are things that you can actually do to change things in your life.

So I've had really good feedback from people on that because it actually helps them.

Yeah,

That's great.

Thank you.

We'll make sure that we add the links to our transcripts because everything is transcribed.

Thank you.

Thank you so much,

Emily,

For being on our show.

This was a terrific conversation.

I think you've definitely have we've touched on different topics.

So we're so so grateful that you were here.

And thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of the Loving Compassion podcast.

Bye bye.