Compassion In Divorce

Do you believe it is possible to have an amicable divorce? What are the outcomes for individuals who have chosen to take a more amicable route? In this episode of Love and Compassion with Gissele, she chats with world-renowned author Gabrielle Hartley, whose approach to divorce is unconventional. Learn from her what it takes to separate compassionately.

Transcript

Hello everyone and welcome to the Loving Compassion podcast with Giselle.

Please remember to subscribe and like and if you're listening to our audio podcast please write a review.

Our guest today is a leading divorce attorney,

Mediator,

And positive divorce trailblazer.

She is the author of Better Apart,

The Radically Positive Way to Separate,

Which is a book incorporating legal wisdom,

Mindfulness-based approaches to divorce.

Gwyneth Paltrow gave it a glowing cover recommendation in People Magazine called it the conscious uncoupling how-to.

New York Post compared Better Apart to Marie Kondo's tidying up,

Which is an incredible accolade.

Gabrielle is a divorce expert and has been quoted across media outlets such as the New York Times,

Vice,

Yoga Journal,

Thrive Global,

And NBC News to name a few.

She works with high network couples to get through and beyond their divorce with dignity and peace,

Even when it's messy.

Hi Gabrielle.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so happy to be here with you.

I'm so excited to talk to you.

To me,

Your book is revolutionary because you're talking about something that where compassion really isn't necessarily always welcome at the table.

I wanted to start by asking you how you came to write the book.

How is it that you came to have this perspective on divorce?

So you're just getting right in there,

Huh,

Giselle?

So it's the only way to do it,

I guess.

So I grew up in New York City with parents who were very committed to having,

I don't think they called it a positive divorce,

But it was all about my brother and me being at the center.

We had a shared parenting agreement.

This is in the 80s when people did not,

That wasn't a thing.

Most other people saw their dads every other weekend,

If that,

Maybe a Wednesday dinner.

It was very avant-garde at the time.

And my parents were almost braggy about,

We're a great divorce couple.

Like that was a thing,

Right?

I would say they're like V1 of our happy divorce.

But as the kid of a divorce,

I didn't really think it was so great.

I mean,

There was plenty of fighting.

It was still hard,

Although they never went to court.

But then,

I mean,

Let's fast forward.

I became a lawyer.

I said I was never doing divorce law.

It was like the last thing.

I was like,

I'm so sick of this topic.

But you know how life unfolds.

I wound up getting this job working for a premier,

Like a really powerful,

Interesting,

Cool divorce court judge in New York City.

In that role,

I had the honor of helping nearly a thousand trial-ready divorces come to close,

Which means like they were already all geared up,

Many of them,

To go to trial.

And I sat at the table with them,

And I helped them to come to resolution.

And it was during that time that I realized how broken the process was,

How amazing my parents were,

How they were actually an incredible divorce couple.

And I like to talk,

I go on a lot of shows and podcasts,

And I'm always talking about how even a perfect divorce is typically not perfect.

And I lived it from the perspective of the kid.

So in private practice,

I always had a natural disinclination to tear each parent to shreds because I sort of like really had a deep,

Intuitive understanding of what that really meant,

What were you doing to the kid in doing that.

So it's pretty complicated.

So all the while,

Again,

My parents were kind of ahead of the curve or maybe right in the middle of the curve at that time in New York.

We did a lot of yoga when I was a kid.

We'd go to like barns in the Berkshires or whatever.

And I came back to yoga in my,

I guess,

Later 20s.

And I loved the idea of being grounded,

Being settled.

And at the same time I was working for the judge and I thought,

Gosh,

These two things are so distinct yet they belong together.

And so I decided I wanted to write a book giving permission to other divorce practitioners to help,

Actually help their clients to move forward in a peaceful,

Air quote,

Peaceful way to redefine their narrative as what it meant to be a divorce attorney.

And then to help other people going through divorce to know that there is a better way forward.

And so that's where the mission,

The Positive Divorce Movement really was birthed,

Was in my mind.

And then it was a whole thing of,

I had to find an agent who understood the idea of this Brooklyn lawyer who wanted to bring together peace and yoga and divorce law.

So as you can imagine,

When I first started to get a deal,

It was not,

You know,

It wasn't met with like,

Oh my gosh,

That makes so much sense right away.

But here we are now.

And that was one of the things that struck me.

The legal system is so based on winning and losing that I found your book revolutionary.

Because for me,

It's like,

This is beyond winning and losing.

This is about how can we actually go through this process in a compassionate way and neither party has to lose.

And so I was curious as to what sort of acceptance you got from the legal community.

That's a great question.

Just before I get there,

I just want to dovetail on something you said.

If you are listening to this and you're in a divorce where you're dealing with somebody who is even short of a narcissist,

Short of a terrorist,

But highly unreasonable,

You may have to go to court.

Okay.

That's,

I wrote the book for you.

I wrote the book so that you knew that no matter what was happening in your life,

You can transcend it.

You can,

Through these five elements that I talk about a lot in the book,

You can actually overcome it and use your divorce as an opportunity to feel and become better.

And now of course,

I lost your question.

Ask me again.

Oh,

It was about how it was accepted by your colleagues in the legal system.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

So that's a funny question.

A great question,

Actually.

I was really afraid of that.

And I didn't come out,

As it were,

To,

I know,

Me with the air quotes,

If you're watching me,

I can't help it.

Sorry.

You're lucky if I don't air guitar.

I talk a lot with my hands.

I'm Hispanic,

So we're in good company.

I'm half Italian.

I'm half Italian,

So it's the same thing.

Right.

So I didn't come out with the fact that I wrote this kind of woo-woo book until literally I had Gwyneth Paltrow's endorsement on the cover and it hit the shelves in Barnes and Noble with like my picture on the thing,

You know,

To come in and,

And hear me talk about it.

So it has,

Well,

I imagine that the lawyers are not always embracing it behind my back because this is not the natural path.

I thought that the legal community,

This shows how optimistic I am.

I thought like,

Oh,

Well,

I have so many friends who are litigators,

You know,

They'll get the books and they'll give it to their clients,

Even when they're enmeshed in terrible trials.

But actually what wound up happening was,

Yes,

A few litigators who I'm very good friends with bought the book,

Hand the book to their clients and actually have said to me,

Wow,

My clients really love this book.

Like as if that's a funny thing,

Right?

Like as if that's something.

It's so confusing.

I was like,

I was like,

You're,

You're telling your client you care about them,

Right?

And then divorce mediators and coaches and therapists actually get the book and hands it out very often because,

Because it has these actionable skills.

But I think that the legal community is more focused on,

Unfortunately,

The scorched earth approach often.

I think there's a thrill in the wind,

But really,

You know,

All we wind up is with burnt or earth when we,

When we take the zero sum game approach,

Unfortunately,

It's not truly serving our clients.

So I kind of think like when we're trained in law school,

We're trained to be zealous advocates,

But we do not receive training in zealous advocacy in the context of family law.

Right.

And it's different because sometimes when you win in a divorce,

Separation,

Any kind of family related matter,

Even in a state's planning matter where you're like just going for it all,

You may be losing.

If you have the retrospective glass looking glass,

You know,

You're looking at your life five years ahead,

Like,

Oh,

Is that the best impact?

Is this the best outcome?

Sometimes walking away is the best way forward.

Very well said.

Absolutely.

And I think,

You know,

One of the,

And we were talking about this off the air,

But the system sets it up so that people are victimized when really what your book is helping them do is remember their own power,

Step up into their own power,

That they're not victims and that they have more power than they believe.

Can you talk about the five essential elements of a compassionate?

Yeah.

I'm like all about you have your power.

Like we are all so freaking complicit in our disempowerment.

I mean,

I'm like,

Oh my God,

Biggest one.

Like,

I mean,

I spent half of my early years of my marriage being pissed off that my husband was traveling so much and he was working and running marathons and I'm,

I have my love practice and I have my three little kids and I'm so crazy and tired and angry,

I'm like pissed.

And then one day it occurs to me like,

I got to write my book,

You know,

And I got to start this thing and I got to make my program and,

And I took back my own power in giving other people power,

Which is kind of funny.

So the five elements are,

They're really cool and they're all about you.

So I'm just going to name them really quickly and give you like a little one sentence sort of synopsis about,

Okay.

Okay.

So first naming them,

Patience,

Respect,

Peace,

Clarity,

And forgiveness,

Which you can also think of as acceptance.

I've learned if I were rewriting the book,

I'd probably call acceptance instead of forgiveness because forgiveness is such a hot button word for people.

It can be kind of loaded for people.

Yeah.

It's very loaded.

So,

Okay.

So patience,

We,

I all need more patience,

Right?

Especially when you're going through something hard,

Especially when you have no control.

And when you're getting a divorce,

You have like no control.

There's the judge,

There's the law,

There's your lawyer,

There's the other lawyer,

There's the therapist,

There's your kids,

There's the ex's new girlfriend,

There's,

I mean,

It's like all over the place.

So what patience is about is all about taking a step back so that you can respond rather than react.

Okay.

And so I give you tools like deep breathing,

All different things you can do.

And if you're interested,

Also,

If you go to Gabrielle Hartley.

Com,

I have like a little masterclass,

Which is 13 modules where I give you the tools and worksheets and stuff,

And it's like under a hundred bucks.

So that's like easy.

Very cool.

Yeah.

Okay.

Is this where you say with patience that divorce is like a fine wine,

It needs time to age?

That's my friend's favorite quote.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

It does.

Somebody said that to me when I was a very young lawyer,

Actually.

I used to say some old man,

He was probably like 35,

Right?

So Gabrielle,

Divorce is like a fine wine,

It needs times to age.

And like,

Yeah,

It does.

So,

Okay.

So patience.

The next is respect.

And when you're going through a divorce or if you have a family member or a friend who's going through a divorce or if you have a family member or a friend who's going through a divorce,

And you're listening to this just because you love Giselle or because this topic grabbed your attention,

Divorce strips away self-respect,

First and foremost.

And when you don't respect yourself,

You're not going to make as smart decisions.

Your emotional brain is going to co-opt your thinking brain,

And you're not going to be as disimpassioned and smart in the way you need to be when making decisions about money and kids and even things beyond that.

So how do we elevate our self-respect?

There's lots of ways.

A quick little tip I can give you is to,

Well,

I'll give you two.

Number one,

It's like a two-in-one,

Is shelve the relationships that don't serve you.

Don't throw them away,

Shelve them.

Just because your best friend or your mother,

There I go with air quotes again,

Or your mother or somebody can't show up for you in this moment,

Doesn't mean that they were never really your friends or that they just suck.

Sometimes people can't show up because what you're going through is triggering for them or is hard for them to imagine.

And so getting to the forgiveness piece,

Right,

Because the forgiveness is not just about you and your ex,

It's also about the ways everyone around you reacts.

It's about the way your children react.

There's so much in there.

So for rebuilding your self-respect,

You shelve things,

And then you're going to have to fill that void with things that serve you more.

So what I,

I'm like a big fan of journals,

I'm sure I have,

See,

I have like these books all over my house and I fill them,

Right?

And make lists of the people,

The places,

The circumstances,

The activities that make you feel happy.

First of all,

Just writing them down and thinking about them is making you feel happy,

Like in that moment.

So if you spend five minutes every morning and every night,

That's already doing something.

Then you want to take it a step further,

Actually do some of those things.

Accentuate the positive.

Okay,

So now that's patience,

Respect,

Peace.

Peace is really all about noticing the neutral.

It's about tapping into the part of your brain where there's no valence.

It's not positive,

It's not negative,

We're not catastrophizing,

We're not minimizing.

We are just noticing.

And when we notice,

We can do,

I don't know if I'm allowed to curse,

Effing anything.

So notice,

Where are you getting in your own way?

What are you doing?

And because it takes 10 to 12 positives for someone to hear,

Integrate,

And change some negative,

When your ex shows up on time with the kids,

Just say,

Hey,

Thanks for showing up on time.

The clothes came back.

Thanks for bringing the clothes back.

The kid did a good performance.

Hey,

Didn't our kid do a good performance?

Say as many positive things as you can say,

Because guess what?

When you want to say something negative,

They're going to be more receptive to hearing it.

Now,

If you're in the middle of negotiating and you're really stuck on,

I need this.

I need to,

Let me give you an example.

I need to keep the house.

That's your position.

And really your interest may be,

I need to be stable.

I need to know I'll live around the corner.

I need to feel secure,

Whatever it is.

So if we get,

Or if we're aware of the interest underlying the position,

Right,

And we just know it,

We noticed it,

Then we can,

In being neutral,

We can start to have the space to get curious and then we're no longer attached to a particular outcome and everything becomes a possibility.

Okay.

So the next thing is respect,

I'm sorry,

Is clarity.

And clarity is like the most fun of all,

Right?

So clarity is where you're saying,

I'm out of the blame game.

I am my own visionary.

I'm going to make my life like freaking spectacular.

I don't want my life to be a three.

I want it to be a six.

I don't want it a six.

I want it an eight.

I don't want an eight.

I want it a 10 plus plus.

Your job is to figure out what makes you a 10 plus plus,

Right?

So look at all the different parts of your life and see which parts are already a 10,

Which is a five,

Which is a seven.

And personally,

If I'm an eight and a half across all things,

I'm good,

But that's me.

I'm a strong A minus kind of gal.

I'm very happy.

I don't need to be A plus plus.

I'm very happy being a very strong A minus.

I feel like I'm more relatable.

I don't know.

That's me.

Whatever you are,

I'd say maybe push to the next level.

Because if we push,

I'm pushing to an A plus plus.

I'm going from being an A minus to an A.

You know what I'm saying?

So depending on what you want,

And do that across your life.

It could be about your sex life.

I mean,

It could be about anything.

Your life is great,

But your sex life kind of sucks.

So what are you going to do about it?

Can I just say that your A minus is pretty spectacular?

Oh,

That's so nice of you.

Your A minus is like other people's A plus,

Just saying.

I have very high standards.

Maybe,

I don't know.

It's my German Jewish mother.

Like,

Schnell,

Schnell,

Right?

Okay.

Thank you.

Okay.

So now,

Yeah,

So clarity.

So I've developed this thing called the VER protocol,

Which is,

I'm going to show you my hand movements because it's going to make you remember it.

Visualize.

So you can't see my whole hands,

But like go up,

Like do it,

Do it with me.

Good.

Visualize,

Feel it,

Bring it in,

Whatever you want.

Okay,

As hard as you can.

And now you internalize it,

Bring it in,

Bring your elbows to your sides,

Bring it in,

Internalize.

And then when it's all in,

Then you realize it.

So it's visualize,

Internalize,

Realize.

And it's so much fun because when you commit to it,

When you think about it and you start to do it,

All the rest of it can really come from there,

Right?

So,

And the last piece,

And then I'm just going to tell you how to use the five elements.

Yeah,

Perfect.

The last piece is forgiveness.

And that's just the knowing that holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

It's the knowing that you can forgive yourself for being angry at the other person.

You can forgive the other person for being so not empathetic that they don't understand even what they did to you,

Right?

Because remember,

What comes at us often has very little to do with us.

Now,

I say that,

And at the same time,

What we put out in the world does also come back.

So if you're really clear about what you want,

You're going to get more of that.

That doesn't mean that there's not going to be some people who are going to come at you with some negative stuff.

But when you're so focused on your eight and a half,

Your nines,

Your tens,

There's going to be little brain space for it even to get into you.

So the way to use the book and the way to use these methods is to see which one you are struggling with at the moment the most,

Right?

And do the practices around that piece.

When you read Better Apart or when you do the Better Apart program,

Or actually,

Ideally,

You get the book and you do the program,

And it's a whole self-guided wellness program,

Really,

You're going to get very specific tips on how to handle going to school and seeing your husband with his new girlfriend and acting like it's all cool or telling people.

There's all of these things that are still universal,

And yet we all suffer in silence when we're going through it because of all that shame.

Oh,

Yeah.

I just wanted to make a comment before my next question,

Which is,

And that's what I thought about the book.

It can help you at different points in the journey,

Right?

So in this point,

In the beginning,

You might be going through just the visioning and the meditating and then helping you ground yourself as you begin the journey.

Later on,

You do talk even about dating and about,

Like you're saying,

The co-parenting piece.

Birthday parties.

Birthday parties and all those emotions that come up.

So I found it incredibly helpful in terms of helping people navigate through the divorce journey.

And just to know that you're not alone in it.

I mean,

That was my whole thing.

It's like everyone can't afford to work one-to-one with me,

And I know that.

And one thing I really wanted to do is make a resource that everybody can do.

Even if you can't afford to do the program,

First of all,

If you want to do the program and you really don't have $100,

Email me.

I will make it happen for you,

Okay?

So I really want you all to have this gift.

Yeah.

So you mentioned shame,

And I know that during a divorce,

A lot of feelings of shame and guilt can come up for people.

I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about some strategies that might help them when these emotions come up.

So one thing that is very helpful is to just normalize.

Name your feeling and normalize your feelings.

So I feel so ashamed,

And I am normal.

My feeling makes sense.

I make sense.

I am okay.

An affirmation where you're rehabilitating yourself,

I am great.

I am getting through this.

I am a survivor.

I am human.

I am fabulous.

Whatever works for you.

I'm rad,

Right?

There's a variation on the air quotes.

When you're feeling the shame,

Let it flow.

Let it be in you and feel it,

And then let it out.

Cry.

Let yourself.

Listen to something really sad.

Like something that makes me cry.

Yesterday was September 11th,

And I'm from New York City,

And I was in Vietnam,

Actually,

Over September 11th.

That's a whole other story.

But anyway,

It didn't really hit me because I wasn't home.

And when I put on whatever it was,

Whatever TV station was in Vietnam,

When we saw outside Buckingham Palace that they played the American National Anthem,

It just made me cry so much.

And yesterday,

I listened to,

Actually,

I guess I must have mentioned that to my kids because my middle son was like,

You have to see this.

It's making me cry.

And it was that,

And it made me cry all over again.

Sometimes the thing that's going to emotionally tug at you may not be related to the thing you're really crying about,

And that's okay,

Right?

Because sometimes you just need the release.

There's a reason that that song,

Let It Go,

Was so popular,

Right?

Because everyone's got crap to let go.

Sing Let It Go.

You might be surprised.

You might get a little crap in your voice and just cry.

And it's like,

It's okay.

We're all a freaking mess sometimes.

I mean,

We just are.

We're just people,

Right?

It's just human beings.

We're doing the best we can.

Exactly.

And our emotions are there for a reason.

They're there to let us know that something's out of alignment,

That something isn't 100% right with us,

Right?

That's right.

And when you're in a period where you just feel great,

And you can't even remember feeling not great,

Notice that too and be like,

I feel great.

And then maybe you can notice if there's someone around you who you love who's not feeling so great,

You can be there for them in a way that maybe,

Be the friend you wish you had,

You know?

That's beautifully said.

You talk in the book about the importance of meditating.

And you actually introduce this meditation,

Which I thought I'd never seen anywhere else,

Which is putting yourself in the kid's shoes,

Which I thought was like,

Wow.

And then I thought,

Could you do that with your ex?

Could you put your ex and then maybe to try to understand their perspective?

Which may be challenging if you're not able to hold space for yourself.

But if you get past the point where you can hold space for yourself,

Could you then try to understand and meditate by imagining what your ex may be thinking?

So as a legal strategy,

Depending on my client and where they are emotionally,

I do that with people all the time.

And I also universally almost hold the mirror like,

Hey,

We can make this offer,

But would you be prepared to flip the offer?

Like,

Will you accept?

Oh,

That's powerful.

That's powerful right there.

Because if you wouldn't be happy with it,

I'll do what you want.

I'm your hired gun,

But let's really think this through.

And I do online mediation all over the world.

And I do this with people online.

Like,

They tell me what they want and I listen and I look at everybody's response.

And then I do a lot of that,

You know,

Well,

Would you want this?

Would you want this?

And I tell people before,

Like in our introductory meeting,

I say,

I'm going to do some pretty wacky things,

But it's going to sort of make the rumble happen.

And it's going to be hard now.

It's going to be easy later.

Because rather than sweeping those things under the rug,

We just talk about them.

And the things we can't talk about,

We even raise,

We say,

I name as many issues as I can name,

Things we can't talk about now.

They're on this piece of paper because you get a memorandum of understanding.

And if you live in New York or Massachusetts,

I do your whole separation agreement.

If you live anywhere else in the whole world,

You just get this memorandum of understanding.

And I literally write down like,

You know,

Wife uncomfortable addressing X.

And then I try to say,

Will you address this by next Christmas?

Will you,

You know,

Like,

And then because when people have time to process,

We are built to deal with things.

But when things,

Well,

First of all,

When you're getting divorced,

You're still full of shame and upset.

It's already hard.

And then if you try to talk about a hard topic,

It's even harder.

Yeah.

It brings up so many emotions,

Which is why I think maybe sometimes when you can't talk about it,

You could use the strategy,

Which you introduced about journaling.

And so a dear friend of mine who's going through a divorce right now,

She found that part challenging.

So she was,

She,

She wanted me to ask you,

Like,

Why do you think some people have a hard time kind of journaling those emotions?

So,

So there's a couple of things that I'm glad.

And if she wants to ask me more questions,

I'd be happy to talk to her.

So,

So some people writing is not their jam.

First of all,

If you don't like to like,

I've been journaling since I'm like eight years old,

Right?

Like I just,

That's what I'm a writer.

I'm a journalist.

This is what I do.

Make a vision board,

Like literally like you were a 14 year old,

Get magazines.

It's very therapeutic.

Cut out pictures,

Like what,

How you want to feel right.

Like the whole point of journaling is to remap how you think.

Now,

I,

I actually think,

You know,

Journaling,

If you listen to enough,

Like podcasts and stuff about it,

Journaling can be kind of controversial because people say,

Oh,

Well,

Journaling is bad because you're just rehearsing negatives.

But like,

What I would say is do a download of the things that are upsetting you that that you can't really deal with on one page.

And then on the next page,

Write all the things as you wish they are.

First,

You have to download what you don't want.

Now,

Your friend may be unable to articulate what she's unhappy about.

Like it just may be that it's just too hard.

And,

And,

You know,

There's work to be done there.

Right.

And like,

We've all been there.

I'm not saying that judgey,

Like at all.

Oh,

No,

No,

No.

We all have things,

You know,

I,

You know,

I'm,

I'm not like super private.

I mean,

Obviously there's things that everybody's private about,

But I think as a divorce lawyer for my entire adult life and growing up with my family and all of their girlfriends and boyfriends and husbands and wives and all that,

I just,

You know,

You know that it's everyone has hard parts of their life.

Right.

And like,

So we don't have to like act perfect.

It's just silly.

You're just hiding from yourself.

So just do what you need to do to feel the feelings.

It might be,

You have to watch a sad movie and when you're feeling feelings,

Take out there's something called the morning pages.

I don't know.

Maybe that would be helpful.

It's called the artist's way,

The morning pages.

So you get a book,

Get yourself like,

I like writing in a book rather than on a computer.

Right.

And if you like this,

I like,

Cause it feels,

I don't know,

It feels very easy and accessible,

But get whatever kind of journal you like,

Get something with a pretty cover,

Make your own journal,

Whatever you wake up in the morning and have a pen right by your bedside.

And you're supposed to just write three pages every morning,

Just a mind dump,

Just see what comes out.

And then when you let it out,

Your brain is cleansed,

But I'm going to take it a step further.

I'm going to say to go back and look at it and do your fantasy version of anything that was negative,

Because you do want to start training yourself to think differently.

I think the reason some people stay in therapy for so,

So long and don't,

You know,

Don't exit.

It's because they're literally using it just for venting.

Yeah,

They're looping around the same story and the same story of victimhood,

Which is why I love the whole concept.

I love the fact that you have the vision in your book because it's beyond divorce.

It's beyond whatever circumstance is happening right now.

It's more like this is an instance or a chapter of your life,

But this is not the whole thing.

That's right.

How can you envision?

How can you go beyond that?

So can you share a little bit more about why it's so important to have vision during a divorce?

Yeah,

I mean,

You need,

Like this book really,

It's a divorce book,

But it's not a divorce book.

It's a life book,

Right?

Like you need vision because if you don't have a vision,

You're just going to bump your way around your life and then you're going to get old and die or just get sick or whatever.

You know,

I have,

When I was at Cornell over one summer,

I had a job working at Cornell Medical Center and I got a ride every day from this guy,

I used to call him the man to my friend.

I don't know why.

And I used to always say,

Just get me out of here.

Yeah,

So my,

Whatever.

Anyway,

So my girlfriend would say,

You know,

You always talk about the man.

Well,

The man gave me this advice and I actually,

I do know his name,

But I'm not going to say it now because,

You know,

He,

It doesn't matter.

He said to me,

Gabrielle,

In your life,

You should always have a direction that you're headed in.

You don't need to know all the specifics about it.

You don't need to know how exactly you're going to get there.

But if you don't have a direction,

Then life is just going to be dictated by everybody and everything around you.

Right.

And like,

As I get older,

I,

I feel like really aware of that.

And,

You know,

My,

My only wish is that I had had more vision younger,

Right.

That I had like really tapped into a greater vision 10 years before I did.

But of course,

At that time I was very focused on having children and,

You know,

Building my own life away from my parents' divorce.

Right.

So,

Yeah,

So I,

So I,

I really want to help people divorce in a way where your children's life is,

You know,

Is positively impacted by your divorce.

You know,

Some,

Some days today,

I think there's a shame in staying.

Right.

Yeah.

It's also true.

I mean,

There,

There are challenges in staying and there are challenges in going right.

There's challenges no matter what,

But you're right.

I mean,

I think,

Oh,

And thank you for bringing that up because that was one of the things that struck me most about the beginning of your book,

Which the first question was really like,

Are you sure you want to get a divorce?

Right.

And I was like,

What kind of divorce book is this?

I knew it was going to be different because it was compassion and divorce.

So I thought,

And I'm like,

Wow,

That was my first reaction.

It was like,

Wow,

Because there's,

You know,

Different perspectives.

Some people stay when they shouldn't,

And some people go when they shouldn't as well,

Which is like,

We're so sometimes easy to throw away relationships,

But all relationships are hard and it really is about ourselves.

What we bring to this is why I love you talk about how,

How are you creating this?

Yeah.

Right.

What,

Where are you blaming where you could be acting differently?

And,

And if you don't remember,

If anyone who's listening is still married and is like on the precipice of divorce,

I'm just going to say to you,

If there's things you want to do and be,

And you're thinking of the only way you can do it as getting a divorce,

I'm going to challenge you to try and do and be those things from within the context of your marriage.

And then if it doesn't work out,

Who cares?

Cause you were going to get divorced anyway,

But like,

Unless there's a financial reason,

Like have a consultation with the local council,

Like maybe you have to file because if you don't,

You're going to have to pay alimony for it.

I mean,

There's a lot of like real,

Real money impact that you,

That you should consider if you're the money spouse,

If you're the non-money spouse,

Generally the longer you're married,

The more rights you have anyway.

So don't worry about it.

But you know,

I challenge you to be the best you for you within the context of your marriage,

You're going to feel so much better and whatever happened is going to freaking happen.

So who cares?

You know,

Let go,

Let God,

Let go,

Let go.

Right.

Like just let go.

Oh,

I love this.

And it's so funny because what you're talking about to me is about like really getting to the point where you unconditionally love yourself and accept yourself.

And then when you realize,

Cause this is what,

As I was reading,

This is how I felt.

When you realize that you're enough in the,

Everything you're looking for,

You already have,

You can release others with love,

Right?

You can say like,

I don't really need to attach to you or play this role anymore because you sort of transcended it because you realize that you've learned what you needed to learn and then you can go.

How important do you feel self-worth is in our ability to have compassion for our partners during a divorce?

Oh my God.

I mean,

You have to have self-worth.

You have to have self-worth to be in a happy marriage.

You have to have self-worth.

I mean,

You can be in a marriage that seems happy without a lot of self-worth in certain dynamics.

I mean,

That's a whole complicated thing,

But it's not true.

Like self-worth is always the best way to go.

I'm right now reading,

If you haven't read it before,

Broken Open by Elizabeth Leffer,

The founder of Omega.

It's amazing.

This is another book to read.

Read Better Part of Broken Open.

You should really read it.

I was up half the night reading it because I can't stop.

But when you are open to and ready for the pain that comes with the growing,

You're going to have all of the beauty on the other side,

But you have to feel the pain now.

Hard now,

Easy later.

Hard now,

Easy later.

I think sometimes it feels a little too scary to open up.

I think sometimes you don't know what you're going to find in there.

I think you might be really scared of unlocking something and then maybe not being able to titrate or control,

Right?

So how do you help your clients sort of face some of those most challenging parts of the divorce?

Like some of the emotions,

Like shame,

Guilt,

Jealousy,

All those pieces.

I mean,

I talk through the different,

Whatever scenario is happening in that moment.

And we always guide back to,

You know,

How do you feel you are your best you?

Because even if someone doesn't have a tremendous amount of self-worth,

When they feel like they're really being heard,

Everybody's actually speaks their truth if you listen enough to it.

And then I reflect it back,

Like reflective listening.

That's another little tip.

If you're listening to everything we're saying,

Another challenge,

Learn about reflective listening.

It's a little bit too much to go.

That would be like a whole other program,

But responsive or reflective listening to the other person and also to yourself is so powerful in making change and acceptance of what's happening and to take down the charge in arguments.

So just break open a little and you'll see that you are stronger than you think.

You are more than enough,

Actually.

Thank you.

So my friend who was also reading the book,

I think one of the challenges she had had is that she feels she's evolving.

But I think when she had a conversation with her ex,

What he reflected back to her was her old self,

Right?

And so,

Because from his perspective,

He doesn't feel she's changed,

But she feels she has changed.

And I think it made her wonder how you can recognize when,

In fact,

There has been true change.

So,

I mean,

The first thing you need to do is not be validated externally.

You have to be at a point where you're having internal validation.

It doesn't matter what other people see,

Like on a very high level,

Actually.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter what I see with you,

What you see with me,

What you see with your best friend,

With your mother,

With your husband,

Your wife,

Your kid.

It just doesn't matter.

And I say this,

You know,

I have a teenager,

I have a little kid and I have a teenager and one in between,

I guess two teenagers now.

And,

You know,

Sometimes his thoughts and mine are not on the same page.

And I don't argue.

I just say,

You know,

You need to know who you are and let them sit with that.

And that goes for all of us.

We just need to know who we are.

And there's no time like the present to get to know that.

And sometimes it's hard for people around us when we are strong minded for other people who are less strong minded to not feel like you're telling them what to do.

Right.

And you have to kind of be okay with that.

Like it's not your,

It's not,

That's not your,

It's not your job to give other people more confidence.

It's your job to increase your confidence.

That is not to say you shouldn't be a supportive,

Loving partner,

Parent,

Spouse,

Friend.

But if your ex is not seeing your changes,

Like whatever,

You know,

My,

As my grandma would say,

That's too bad about him.

I love your grandma.

He was,

She was a very smart lady.

She was a force to be reckoned with.

She was,

She had two master's degrees from NYU in 1934.

Wow.

I know.

Impressive.

And she's a daughter of immigrants.

So yeah,

It was impressive.

But I love that expression.

That's too bad about him.

Yeah.

That's great.

Going back to your comment of just being your authentic self,

I feel like we live in a society where people are like,

Be your authentic self.

Not,

Not like that.

And so the messages you get are,

Yeah,

Be your authentic self until you don't fit with the conventional.

And then people are like,

Oh,

Don't be yourself.

So it's very,

That's a very funny topic to me.

Like my,

Something I talk about a lot.

I don't know if I mentioned this.

Did I say this to you before?

No,

I,

I'm working on being less authentic.

That's all I got.

As you are.

No,

I am.

I mean,

I am not fake.

Like I'm a lot of things,

But I am not fake.

Right.

And so,

You know,

Compulsive,

Impulsive,

Honest,

Straightforward,

You know,

Funny,

Sensitive.

What's wrong with that?

Is it that you're making people uncomfortable?

Because that's their issue.

Too bad about them.

That's right.

So,

You know,

To your point,

Yeah,

Right.

Like be authentic,

But don't.

And,

And,

And I think that that's a load of horseshit.

Like I'm just myself.

Like my joke is,

You know,

I'm working on being less authentic,

You know,

Like,

Yeah.

You know,

If I,

You look at my Instagram,

I don't look so great sometimes and I'm like,

You know what I mean?

Or like something is messed up.

I,

You know,

I can't tell you all,

All the teenagers secrets cause that'd be a problem.

But beyond that,

You know,

It is your life is your life.

And,

And,

You know,

If you're younger and you're living in a generation where social media is everything,

You know,

Unfortunately you really have to be aware of that because things do come back and can reflect really poorly on you in terms of getting jobs,

Even like dating.

So I would just caution you to be very,

Not inauthentic,

But spare in what you share.

Like discerning,

Right?

So there is,

Yeah,

So,

So there is a way to be your authentic self and be discerning,

Right?

Cause you do have to be discerning in general.

I mean,

I wouldn't walk,

You know,

Into like a really dangerous situation and say,

Well,

I'm just going to walk here because I want to be my authentic self.

Right?

And you wouldn't,

There's a lot of things that,

You know,

You just have to,

You know,

As Brene Brown talks about like vulnerability a lot,

You know,

Choose who you're being wholly vulnerable with,

But you can share things to lift up others,

Or you can,

You know,

Be vulnerable about your sadness or your frustration or your difficulties with your trusted people without telling the whole world things.

Because when you're going through a hard time,

If you start,

Basically you don't want to feed the gossip mill around your divorce.

A,

You're going to get over a lot of stuff probably,

And the world won't.

And they'll be like,

Why are you still talking to him?

And B,

It could come back to your kid.

And that's like,

If you have kids,

That's the last thing you want.

So I would just say as hard as it is,

And I know it's like really,

Really,

Really hard,

Try to keep as much of the garbage to a very trusted sphere of people.

Yeah,

I agree.

And thank you for bringing up the issue of children,

Because you have in your book,

You talk about a quote that says,

Your ex is not your children's ex.

Yeah,

I thought that was so spot on,

Because I think so often we forget that the children are also living the experience.

And I,

You know,

One of the things I think that my friend and I have talked about is how do you consciously go through this process in a way that also isn't subconsciously giving your children messages?

So for example,

If you're feeling jealousy because of your ex-husband has a new partner,

How do you talk about that with each other so that they don't pick up and feel like they have to choose,

Right?

So understanding that their role is not to choose.

Your emotions are your emotions,

And it's something you're working.

If you're having a really hard time,

Like one thing that you can do is you can say to your kids,

You're kids and you need to be kids.

And I'm having a really hard time,

But mommy is okay.

And mommy's going to get through this.

And in life,

Sometimes things are hard.

Yeah,

That's it.

There's no value.

There's nothing evaluative.

Now,

If you say something that's disparaging about your ex,

I mean,

It's so natural.

Like don't kill yourself,

But you can go back into your kid after you've calmed the heck down and say,

Hey,

I'm sorry I said that about your dad.

He's a really good dad.

I'm having a really hard time.

Or if you think he's a crap dad,

Say,

I'm sorry that I said bad things about your dad.

We're all doing the best we can,

Even though the best might not seem like the best all the time.

Mm-hmm.

Instead of saying,

He's not doing his best.

He sucks.

He doesn't show up.

Or you can say,

Or if your kid is disappointed,

Just like what I was talking about with reflective listening.

Yeah.

Listening,

Maybe you're seeing your kid sad and you can say,

I see that you're really sad.

If you want to talk about it,

I'm here.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You could not say anymore.

Not say anymore.

And it's really hard.

I have my own hard time just shutting up,

As you can see,

Because I'm like,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

See,

There I go.

Now,

These aren't quotes.

These are talking hands.

These are mad mouths.

And I also love that in your book,

You talk about giving the most generous interpretation.

And I know Brene Brown has been a big proponent of that,

As well as somebody that I really followed was Louise Hay.

And she was big on that in terms of everybody's doing the best they can with the understanding,

Knowledge,

And awareness that they have.

And really deserve the most generous interpretation of their behavior.

Because on the outside,

Somebody might seem really narcissistic and hurtful.

But on the inside,

How they might feel is lack of self-worth and feeling like the only way I can get what I need is for me to force it,

Right?

Or for me to be aggressive or hurtful.

Right.

You know,

With that,

First of all,

That is 100% true.

I live my life with that assumption.

And I think I've had a lot of conversations about that.

There are people who really think that's a cop out.

They really disagree with that.

I don't think that that's going to lead anybody to joy or truth,

To joy or contentment or anything good.

If you can wrap your head around the assumption that people are doing the best they can,

That's going to serve you.

So think when you're reacting to people,

How does it serve you?

Now,

Secondarily,

Just because somebody's doing the best they can and it sucks,

Doesn't mean you need to stay with them.

Right.

Right?

Like if the best they can do is crap,

You don't need to be angry at them,

But you also don't need to subject yourself to them.

For sure.

Sometimes the most loving thing we can do for ourselves and for them is to leave.

And nevermind for them,

For yourself.

Yeah.

Women do not- For sure.

Absolutely.

So I write self-help books and sometimes the titles that I come up with are very for women only.

And I've been told many times,

Only women,

And I'm sure it's not really only,

But mostly women buy self-help books,

Right?

Not men.

So it's because we know that we need more.

Yeah,

For sure.

And I think,

I mean,

What you said is completely correct.

I think you do have to have love and compassion for yourself first.

You have to put your own oxygen mask on first and say,

And it does help the other person for you to say this behavior is not acceptable.

This isn't,

This is not good.

This is not who you are.

This is not who I'm willing to accept.

And it does give them an opportunity to learn.

So sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to say,

I'm not going to accept this behavior.

That's right.

Yeah.

In your book,

You talk about slow is quickest.

And I've heard,

My husband also says this,

He goes,

Slow down to speed up.

And I gotta be honest,

I don't always understand it.

I hate that expression.

And it's so- Can you talk a little bit about,

Because I'm always on fast forward.

Yeah,

I'm always on fast also,

Which is why we're able to record Saturday morning.

I know,

We're like,

This is my favorite one.

Right.

So I was once told slowest is quickest.

And there's an expression in Italian that's something along the line of piano,

Piano,

Si fa lontano,

Slowly,

Slowly go far.

And all that means is that,

Well,

It's another way of saying haste makes waste,

Right?

So when we let things settle,

We get better outcomes.

Most of the time.

Now,

When you're settling your divorce and the other person wants out and you're devastated and the other person makes an offer,

That offer may be the best offer you're going to get.

It usually is.

That's the one time that fastest is best.

Grab that offer and run.

But anyway,

I mean,

That's my free legal advice to you because normally what happens,

Just remember guilt goes away.

I mean,

The thing is,

When we,

When we jump to things too quickly,

We tend to be reactive.

And when we're reactive,

It's typically not going to serve us.

There's a flip side to everything,

But that's generally what.

Absolutely.

In talking about kind of,

You know,

Trying to deal with people in a more compassionate and less judging way.

When I think about my life,

I think about mistakes I've made and how I'm sure to some in some people's lives,

I'm the villain,

Right?

Like in some people's,

And I think it also helps me have more compassion.

Exactly.

It makes me have compassion for people that hurt me and also helps me understand that other people's perception me.

How can those going through a divorce right now,

Especially if it's acrimonious,

Have more curiosity and less judgment in the process?

So,

I mean,

Really by doing all of the exercises,

You know,

Like breathing,

Having affirmations,

Noticing the judgment in their mind,

And then offering themselves a way to take a step back from it.

You really want to get off the judgment.

We want to go from the place in between.

I talk a lot about when I'm doing lectures about like noticing the edges.

There's a Chanel suit that's in the Museum of Modern Art,

I think,

Which is,

It's all frayed.

It's all like full of crazy edges.

It's just like a black and white dress skirt suit.

And when I saw it,

I put it immediately on my Instagram and I wrote like explore the edges or something like that.

And,

You know,

My husband's like,

What are you talking about?

And I was like,

Shh,

I don't understand.

But like,

I think that when we start to notice the edges,

That's the same as visualizing the possibilities,

Getting neutral.

If you make neutrality,

Maybe for you,

Your goal is peace.

And if you don't like the word peace,

Because similar to forgiveness,

People don't like the word peace,

Substitute it with neutrality.

Get yourself to neutral.

And then from there,

You can move forward.

Thank you.

That was beautiful.

You talk about asset division.

And have you ever seen the movie When Harry Met Sally?

Of course.

Do you remember that part where Harry is really upset and he picks up the plate because his friends are fighting over this wagon wheel table?

And he goes,

This $8 plate is going to cost you $1,

000 in the law firm of this is yours or this is mine.

That's what I thought about.

Like it just made me laugh so much.

And at the end,

The lady turns to her husband and goes,

I will never want that wagon wheel coffee table.

And so it was like,

It was such a great,

Great scene.

And I know in your book,

You talk about the difference between needs and desires and how it is,

How important it is to differentiate that.

Can you expand a little bit on that?

Yeah,

I mean,

You can look at it as needs and desires.

You can also look at it as positions and interests.

At the end of the day,

When you start to visualize what you want in terms of your finances,

You should always find out what you're entitled to because you never want to be angry after the fact if you accept way less than you're supposed to get,

Or if you paid way more than you were supposed to pay.

It's okay if you deviate,

But you just need to know that you're deviating.

So because I work with people all over the place,

I know how different the laws are between different places.

I don't know all the particular laws,

But I'll tell you the one thing I know is there's so much variation and yet people are still people with the same needs.

People want to put their kids in school and have houses.

And so find out what the laws are,

But also even maybe before that,

Write down what you need,

Write down what you want,

And see where there's the space in between because when you can really grapple with that space,

You can find that good enough point that you can both resolve for.

And the goal here is to reach a reasonable resolution that everybody feels like is,

I used to always say,

When you reach the point of meh,

Right?

Like no one should feel like they won.

No one should feel like they lost.

You should just both feel okay.

And that's the space for the resolve.

Yeah.

And I would say a good resolve.

Yeah,

For sure.

I also appreciated that you talk about abundance,

Talking about gratitude,

Talking about how we shift the perspective from one of lack and victimhood to one of what am I grateful for?

Where is my abundance?

And abundance beyond the divorce,

Right?

So what I mean is,

Is that that doesn't necessarily need to be my only source of income.

In fact,

I can have,

Like the universe is plentiful with opportunities.

So do I really,

Is the sponsoring thought that my whole abundance is going to come from this money that I'm going to get from this person to perpetuity?

Or is it just one opportunity of many opportunities in the universe that I could get?

And I think once we start to shift that perspective of my whole safety,

My whole being able to survive is dependent on the outcome of this divorce.

I think it starts to help shift towards a more compassionate divorce.

Right.

So when we start to have the sense of possibility,

You have to be an open person really to do this.

Again,

To talk about,

I guess maybe September 11th is on my mind as it's September 12th,

But I remember at September 11th,

I was single back then.

And I was like practically a professional bridesmaid.

I was a bridesmaid like 15 times.

It was crazy.

And a lot of dresses,

A lot of dresses.

So a lot of people who were,

So there were a lot of articles about people like feeling so desperate and feeling so alone and leaving the city and all this stuff.

And I never felt so much gratitude,

Which sounds weird because my city had been attacked.

I lost loved ones.

I mean the whole thing,

But I felt personal gratitude because it made me take a step back and look at how rich,

Although I didn't have a partner in my life,

How rich my life was.

And I didn't have tons of money.

Right.

But I had like wonderful,

I'm very lucky with my family.

I have so many wonderful friends.

I had a great job.

There were so many things that before September 11th,

I wasn't focused so much on all that.

And when I was reading the paper,

Rather compulsively at the time,

There was so much fear and sadness,

Which was highlighted.

And it made my brain go naturally toward like gratitude and optimism.

And I think you could do that for yourself in your divorce.

But again,

You have to notice if you don't notice,

If you're living in an unconscious state,

Then you are not giving yourself the power you need to move forward.

You can't be powerful if you are not conscious.

Wow.

Thank you for that.

How can people going through a divorce find a lawyer like you who works in a compassionate way?

I know you have the Better Apart program.

Do you want to talk about that?

I do have a program.

Is it for just individuals or is it for lawyers as well?

So lawyers,

There's like a whole program and there are lawyers who've done it.

You can ask me and I can give you referrals.

In many states,

There are lawyers.

Number one.

Number two,

You can ask in your location for mediation-friendly lawyers.

Now,

The thing that's a little bit complicated is oftentimes the same lawyer who's great at mediation or at collaborative law is not the best litigator.

I mediate for people and I represent people in a non-litigious way.

But the other side always knows I'm not going to court.

So if this is going in that direction,

There are very specific lawyers who I work with very closely who are going to rip the other person to shreds,

Right?

Because not to be mean,

But because you really have to fight fire with fire,

Unfortunately,

In a divorce situation.

Because don't conflate being weak and being kind.

That's a really big problem.

So to find the lawyer,

You really have to talk to other people who've been divorced.

Don't just look online.

Don't just look at Avvo.

Talk to actual human beings who are emotionally similar to you.

But at the same time,

It's really hard because you need to be aware that their life is not the same as your life.

Their facts are different.

Sometimes that proverbial Greek chorus causes more harm than good.

So it can be difficult to find the just right lawyer.

If you're looking for someone in New York or Chicago or Michigan,

I mean,

Definitely reach out to me.

I know people around the country,

But there's no one place to just find them,

Unfortunately.

What we're really hoping to do,

My mission is to really build a global community by talking about it so much,

As I was telling you before,

Right?

Five times on podcast this week,

By talking about it so much,

It just creates more energy around the positive divorce movement and the separation process.

And again,

If you're listening and you're like,

Oh,

I wish I could do that,

But I can't because my ex is just so impossible,

That is okay.

You can still be positive.

You can still do all the things in the book.

You can still live your wholehearted best life,

Even though you're in divorce hell right now.

And it is hell.

And you just need to arm yourself with the people to keep you elevated spiritually and emotionally.

For sure.

Find your support and step up into your own power.

And I do believe that when you do that,

When you follow the approach that you provide,

It does become better.

Then you're not escalating as much as they're escalating because people,

The more that you gear up,

The more they gear up and then it becomes a constant escalation.

That's right.

You can come in into those situations with some sort of balance.

You won't get sucked into it and you're more likely to make decisions,

Like you say,

From clarity and more perspective.

And you will allow people and release them with love because you won't be attached to that.

You need to find a lawyer who has the ability to bring things back,

Like who can skillfully,

When the other lawyer amps it up,

That they can dial it down.

It's a very particular skill.

But I think increasing the awareness that people are out there who can do this,

Increasing the awareness that this is,

I do believe that this is revolutionary because I do believe this is the way of the future.

I think that adversarial,

Aggressive approaches,

Legal systems that are just very fear-based and not based on compassion and forgiveness,

I don't think are the way of the future.

Yeah,

I hope not.

I think we are paving a new way and I think we're seeing it with the police system in terms of people are not,

Right?

We're seeing all these systems where power over and aggression,

I think we're seeing an overall rejection of those systems.

I hope that you're right.

I mean,

One thing that I've been doing now on my high net worth mediations and collaborative cases is we do the team approach whenever possible.

So I bring in financial experts who can really break things down.

If I've got clients who are millionaires or billionaires,

I mean,

Obviously those are extraordinarily complicated and we just bring in other people.

And so we're working as a team instead of working against each other because at the end of the day,

When you look back on your life,

You want to feel like it was a life well-lived.

It's not all about winning this battle.

No,

For sure.

For sure.

Can you share with the audience what's next for you?

Like what are you working on?

What do you want to share?

So what's next?

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

I mean,

Peace of mind.

Many,

Many things you've got.

Yeah.

Many,

Many things.

I mean,

I think that what's happening in our world today,

Similar to what you're just saying,

Is like one big giant divorce and anything.

.

.

No,

It really is.

I don't look at it that way,

But yeah,

We're divorcing ourselves from the systems.

Well,

And also our society is so bifurcated in how it's viewing things.

So I just think that,

You know,

Everything starts at home.

And so if we can start to actually divorce better,

We can set an example.

Each of us,

It's like recycling,

Right?

Like if we each just recycle our stuff globally,

We're changing the energy and it becomes normal.

If we can start to separate,

And when I say separate,

If we can have two totally different ideas and come together and get separated and divorced in a meaningful way,

We are recalibrating.

We are shifting the global energy.

So it's not so,

I don't want to say black and white,

A and B,

Right?

There's all that space in the middle.

Nothing divisive or dual.

Everything is so divisive and there's always like a middle way.

There's a middle path through,

You know,

Like everybody could just back off.

We can just move forward better.

So yeah,

So I'm talking about that and writing constantly and helping people.

Thank you so much,

Gabrielle.

This has been a wonderful conversation.

And we look forward to seeing kind of the revolution take a hold,

Especially in the legal system.

We really appreciate it.

Thank you everyone for listening to our podcast today.

Please go out and get Gabrielle's book or get it for a friend.