The Business Of Meditation & Spirituality W/ David Gandelman

I interview my mentor in the business of meditation and spirituality. You'll be inspired by David's journey on how he came out to be a meditation teacher and how he helps people to find their answers, work through energy, find out who they are, and laugh at his Dad Jokes!

David Gandelman, founder of Meditation School, teacher in the field of meditation and spirituality, and his work has helped many people around the world to cultivate greater peace, presence, and fulfillment in their lives.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Awakening to Purpose podcast. Today's episode is an interview with David Gandelman. This is the second interview that I did live in front of an audience with David, So I just want to give a little intro to it so you're prepared. This is a great interview if you are on the path of giving your gifts in some way and are trying to figure out how to navigate the business side, How to navigate, How to get supported, How to know that you're doing things with the right heart and following the the truth of the gift that you want to give. David is a really great entrepreneur. He has multiple businesses and he is really also a good-hearted man and teacher and guide and I've learned so much from David over the years that I wanted to have him on to share his wisdom and hopefully help you in your path of purpose and definitely take notes. I took notes during this. A lot of gems and wisdom was shared by David so I hope you enjoy this interview with David Gandelman. Well, Officially, Welcome to what is going to be my podcast. It's not officially out yet but this is part of taking those steps. You're my second interview ever and to introduce David to those here and those listening, David Gandelman is a spiritual teacher, Author and guide whose mission is to awaken souls on their path of growing into being human and living an enlightened purpose-driven life. He is the founder of Meditation School app, The host of Meditation School, Energy Matters and Grounded Sleep podcast and his meditations have been streamed millions of times. He has taught at Cornell University, NBC, Universal, SAP and numerous other organizations. David is also a mentor of mine in this world of business of meditation and spirituality. David's one of those people who when he tells me to just do something, I just do it. He's the reason I'm speaking on this mic. He's the reason I'm looking through this camera. I go to David, I'm like, David, Help. What do I do? And he's someone I take hard and fast just advice, Business advice from. And I have this joke that for everyone listening, David is your favorite meditation teacher's business coach. I won't name names but it's pretty astonishing how many people seek David out in this world for his advice and for his coaching and support. And that ranges from people to companies as well. So he's really impressive. And I'm super excited I get a chance to speak with him. So David, Thanks so much again for for joining here. Thank you. I've never heard that. I like that. That's that's gonna be the new bio. There we go. I'll take it. So David, You're also a comedian. Maybe that needs to be added in there. But so with that, I promised people on my newsletter that you'd get a David Gandelman dad joke. So I don't want to disappoint. T you up to start us off with a joke. All right, I got a couple. They're pretty bad. And remember, They are dad jokes. So I'll give you I'll do a couple because usually one's not enough. So first one I got living on earth might be expensive, Especially with inflation right now. But at least you get a free trip around the sun every year. That's terrible. All right, I got I got a math joke for you. Parallel lines have so much in common. It's a shame they'll never meet. When I kind of like Yeah, And I'll do I'll do one more. What's the difference between et and a teenager? Et actually phones home. I'll take that one. There we go. Awesome. David, There's a question that I want to ask you that it came up on the other night on on one of the calls that we were on, Where I know I have a tough time answering this question. And I'm just curious. If someone asks you what kind of meditation do you teach? How do you answer that? Yeah, And it is a hard question to answer unless you're like, I just teach TM, Or I just teach papasana. Some folks do have that kind of niche where they just teach one style. And I'm just not that kind of teacher. I spent a lot of time in India and Hawaii studying various traditions. And so mine is really just a synthesis of Eastern and Western traditions and my own experience. So everything from Vedanta, Zen, Buddhism, Hinduism, To the more energetic side of stuff, Intuitive energy work, Healing work, Mysticism. And then probably what I have the most affinity for would be like an Eckhart Tolle Adyashanti kind of approach. Non dogmatic, Non ideological approach to meditation of just helping people get in the moment. And then also helping them find their answers with their eyes closed, Work through energy, Find out who they are, Maybe explore some of the mysteries of the universe inside themselves. So usually the first few layers, Or first few thousand layers are stress, Anxiety, And different forms of pain, Resistance, And unpleasantness. And then after that, You start to get to some of the good stuff. So my teaching might look different for different people based on where they are on that arc, And how long they've been with me and what kind of classes they take with me. So for a lot of people, I'm just the guy who makes jokes and does a morning meditation or puts them to sleep. And then for others, I'm their intuitive energy working teacher, Or anything in between that vast space. So it is hard to define that was long winded, But hopefully, That'll get us started. It's a hard conversation. If someone does ask you on the street who has, You know, Wants to put us in a box, I think, So often, When we ask that question, In many ways, It's like, How can I make me understand you and fit into some kind of category that I understand? And it's tough. Something I appreciate you is that range, Right? You can kind of go super out there and esoteric and teach these other things. And then it can be kind of very basic or just just helping people with sleep. And then also the maybe you go out there into the esoteric, But then you have to like take the kids to school or pay your bills or run your business, Be with your partner. So how do you bring all of that kind of awakening and awareness and esoteric energy into being a human being? For me, That's the most fascinating part of this work. It's kind of grounding your awareness into your humanity. I think that's where it's at at the moment for me. Yeah. It sort of reminds me of the book. Have you read After the Ecstasy of the Laundry? You know, I always recommend it and I haven't read it. Jack Kornfield. I love the title. I think the title for me is enough. I got it. It's good. Yeah, It's a cool story. I remember starting to listen to it five years ago and I was like, This is not the right time for this. And then I read it last year and was like, Oh, This was a good time for this. Funny how books are like that. Lovely book. I met Jack Kornfield when I was 24, 25. I came back from India, Did a vipassana. I was hitchhiking around. I had nowhere to live, No money. And somebody literally just brought me to him to introduce me to him. And I just remember being in such a different place at that time, Looking back. And he was so sweet. He really was. Where did that happen? In the US? Yeah, Spirit Rock. Yeah. From what I know of your story, I know it was like 16, You read Eckhart Tolle and start down this path, Which is amazing. I wish I had that awareness at 16 to move toward that. You study philosophy in college, You go to India, You're on your guru search. You go to Hawaii, You're teaching and living there, All of this while around spiritual work. And so add in anything that you'd like. And also what I'm really curious about is, When and where does this interest in entrepreneurship come in? And the business side come in? Yeah, So I was running a nonprofit mysticism meditation school in Hawaii. I had been there for seven years, And I was the director for three years. And so I was teaching and doing the admin, You know, Working probably 70-80 hours a week for almost no money at all. And Hawaii is an expensive place to live. It's like $9 for a gallon of milk, You know. And so I was just tired of being poor. And I started realizing that this school, As much as I loved it, Was never going to pay me more. And that I had to find a way if I wanted to stay in the field I was teaching in and working in, I had to find a way to make my own path because this is not the kind of career path where the university gives you a job that's like full time or, You know, You get a grant or whatever. It's just not that kind of job. Now there's a bit more of that, Like a corporation might hire you. But at the time, That was not the case. And so the first book I read was the four hour work week by Tim Ferriss, Which is one of the most famous business books of all time. And then I started picking up one after the other and listening to podcasts and going, Oh, Maybe I can kind of hit it out there on my own, Start teaching on online and build something for myself. And I was very intrigued by entrepreneurship. I really liked it. It kind of runs in my family. And I like the idea of being free, Of working for myself, Of having a team, Of getting to be creative and play on my own time, My own hours, Travel the world when I feel like it, You know, All the things most entrepreneurs are looking for. And then there's the difficult side of entrepreneurship, Which I think Elon Musk said, Entrepreneurship is like chewing on broken glass and staring into an infinite abyss of darkness. And I definitely experienced that side too. I think Elon's chewed on a little bit too much glass and grass recently. That's a different topic. Yeah, We could go into that. My loss is way a bit there. And anyway, So I just, I started teaching myself and getting online, Teaching a lot online. I got on with Insight Timer, Which we both teach on, Which is an amazing app, And just started really getting out there. And I got, In some sense, Lucky. It was a mix of luck and hard work. And also timing, YouTube, Podcasting, All of that came online, Right as I was starting to teach. So it's like a wave that I hit. So I love understanding like the process of what, What specifically you read the four hour workweek and like, What are the ahas or what are the, What are you starting to do? It's like, Okay, Now I need to systematize something or okay, Now I need to, I'm gonna start a YouTube channel. Like what, Like, Curious, Like what happened after you start this kind of self education journey? Yeah, Great question. You might want to meet everybody one more time. I think somebody bled through. So I start the education journey. And one of the first things that happened was I was like, I'm going to make a video, I'm going to start making videos. And I put up a green screen. And I climb up this ladder and put I'm trying to put it up. And I have this really clear thought, Man, I'm never going to be as good of a teacher as my teacher. When at the time, I was thinking of my teacher, Jason, Lovely guy. And right when I had that thought, I fell off the ladder, Knocked the green screen and everything down and hit me right on top of the head. And I had this huge welt right on my forehead, And I couldn't record for days. And I remember just laying on the floor. Just like in tears, I'm never gonna be able to do this on my own. I don't know what I'm doing is too hard. I'm not good enough. And just like waves of those of that invalidation came through. So that was my first experience going into that world. And I had to sit and meditate and get over that and realized, Right, There's one arc as a student. And there's another arc as a teacher. And then there's another arc as an entrepreneur. Oh, My God. So I spent years, Self studying, Hired some business coaches when I had enough money, And just really dove into how can I do this myself. And and then eventually I, My brother called me and he was like, Hey, Why don't you Hawaii is expensive. If you want to do your own thing, Come sleep on my couch for a year and get your stuff off the ground. So I was like, Yeah, That's not a bad idea. He has 200 acres is a big organic farm in upstate New York. I went up there. And that's what I did. I just started recording content and just started building my first programs and getting them out in the world and making every possible mistake, Bad microphones, Poor recordings, Just like every every mistake in the book. And, You know, Investing too much money too soon into the wrong things. Everybody wants to build a big website, Just wasting time on that kind of stuff. And then I started, I went to a party. It was a it was a it was like a post wedding brunch, Actually. And one of the ladies there said, Oh, You're a meditation teacher. Do you use insight timer? I was like, No, I haven't heard of that. She goes, Yeah, That's what I use all the time. It's amazing. So I was like, All right, I went home and downloaded it. I was like, Oh, This is great. And I just started posting my content on there. And eventually just kind of got popular. I just kept posting more and more content. So that was the initial arc for me. And at the same time, I was building my own online courses, And teachings and started taking clients one on one coaching, That kind of thing. And slowly just built it over time. Yeah, David, For those that don't know, Built a really impressive websites course, I guess, You call grounded, Grounded mind when you Oh, Yeah, That was 365 days of meditation. Yeah, That was my first one. It was a year of meditation. It was called grounded mind. It was just a website. It was a membership, It was $10 a month. And I felt so bad charging $10 a month. Like I couldn't even, I felt so bad charging $10. That's where I was. Energetically at the time with my relationship to money had been poor so long, Living in Hawaii. And you know, That in Hawaii, Also, The culture is like everyone just shares everything. And so to just get out there and be like, Okay, To take $10 was in that was another step for me. That's something I wanted to talk to you about. And since you bring it up, I remember when I was doing my first, Like meditation workshops, And it was first just donation, Right? And just like, Asking for donation and just seeing like, Yeah, People might give a couple bucks and whatnot. I remember the first time even charging $10 for to come to like, A 90 minute in person workshop. And I was so afraid that I would be, You know, Rejected, Or people will judge me. And then there was one time when I was doing my book launch, I was going to charge 15 $15 and was like, Oh, My God, Is anyone gonna come? So I've, You know, I've, I've seen my own experience around money grow a lot on this journey. And so maybe since this is around business, Business, You know, Money is part of business. What, What do people get wrong about money? Or how might someone help their own money mindset or think about spirituality and money? And I'm asking a few questions, But of course, I think we've all heard that, You know, Money is energy, And it amplifies what's already inside of us, I've seen really wealthy people just create a shit show out of their lives. But that was already inside of them, You know, And now they just had more resources to do more damage, And vice versa. So I think that it will amplify our intentions and our feelings, Our insecurities are in our securities. And so it really just pulls out of us who we really are. If you don't give money to charity, When you're poor, You probably won't when you're rich either, You know, And it's also an incredible tool for creativity. It's an amazing opportunity to be creative. And I have maybe like 20 or so people that work for me now. And I love nothing more than getting to pay them, And getting them to build things and create help me create content and edit audio and video, And make images and build courses and just do all the things put a down payment on a retreat center, Right? It's it's it opens up a lot of space to do a lot and to reach people, Right? You can use money just to also to reach people. So I think money is a neutral entity, Phenomenon, Whatever you want to call it. And we color it with our own perceptions and our own energies, But it's it's neutral, Right? If there were no human beings on earth, And there was a pile of money, It would just it would be it wouldn't be good or bad. It's just how we use it. It makes it good or bad. And so if someone's going around the world saying money is evil, Money is evil, And everyone who wants it is evil. Well, That's somebody who's got a chip on their shoulder, Probably about having money and not having money. Right? So maybe there's envy, Their jealousy or invalidation insecurity. So I think what's important is to look at your relationship with money, Honestly, And clearly, And a lot of people spend all day and night worrying about money, Because for the vast majority of human history, We lived in caves, Right? And then we started farming. But every single day for hundreds of 1000s of years, We worried about survival, And our lifespans were really short. So deeply built inside of us wired into our biology is this fear and lack of and not having enough of survival. I need you know, Like a squirrel, I need to get all the nuts and bury them away for winter. And so now in the modern world, We do the same thing, But we do it with money, Because money is the medium that we use to get things. But it's the same kind of survival energy. And so what I've seen happen a lot with people is there's so survival energy kind of from the body bubbles up into the mind, And particularly into the analytical and worrying parts of the mind. And and it goes into problem solving mode. So to survive, I need to solve this problem, How do I get more money, And that leads to always worrying about the future. So it's like the survival that survival energy just turns into anxiety, And then it becomes totally unmanaged. And then it bleeds into everything. And a lot of people all they want is like, I just wish I would win the lottery. And one of the reasons is so that fear and that survival energy could like relax, Right. So it's important to notice the whole chain there that happens survival energy bubbles up into thought, We start to problem solve, Project out into the future. And the more we project into the future, The more anxiety we create. So the gap between where we are, And where we want to where we're projecting into the future, The bigger that gap, The more anxiety there is. And so meditation is about closing that gap between where we are in the future and the present. And fear around money creates that gap, Like nobody's business. So just being aware of that whole process, And you can sit and meditate on that. I have a free I don't know, Is it seven or 10 day money course is totally free. Because I don't want to charge money for a money course. You go sit and work on it every day. And so what I do in that course, Is I go over the seven levels of money, A relationship to money. So there's a survival relationship we have, Which is the one I just mentioned, That creates a lot of the anxiety. And then we have an emotional relationship. So some people spend just purely emotionally, They can't calculate budgets, They just I need to buy clothes, Whatever, Just to make me feel better. Right? Like some people eat emotionally, Some people spend emotionally. And then we have a relationship, Another relationship to money, Which is self image. So our self image is maybe about status, People see me with this nice car, This nice house, Nice clothes, Whatever it is, My value is based on my image. And part of that image is my relationship to money about around how much I have or don't. And then the fourth is giving and receiving. So can I openly give money? And can I receive it? Some people are great at receiving money, Horrible at giving, And vice versa. So can I open that channel both ways and be good at giving and receiving money that might involve charity, Family, Friends, Right, Someone who's homeless, And then ourselves being able to receive money from life. And then we have an intellectual relationship with money, Maybe that's where we get into finances. You know, Our 401ks, Stocks, Investment bankers, And financial advisors, And CPAs, And all of that. So we have this ability to be intellectual with our money and start planning for the future, In hopefully a way that doesn't cause anxiety. And then I the next one, The sixth one I call a visionary relationship to money. So what is what is my vision? Is it to like build a school for kids? Is it to solve climate change? Is it to go to Burning Man and create some huge thing? We can have a vision, And use money to create that vision. And then the last one, The seventh one is our, I would call it our spiritual relationship to money, Just kind of like an everyday intentionality, Every time we touch money, There's purpose to it. So when we bring the vision with together with real purpose, So that's sixth and seventh, I think that's when we get them a lot of magic. And so we can every time we touch money, Every time we relate to it, It's our friend, Right? And there's a there's a nice relationship here. And it's a spiritual relationship. So that was very long winded. But that's how I break down the relationship to money. And if you're listening to this, You might go, Well, What is my relationship to money? Is it mostly emotional or survival based? Or is it something else? And the more you bring your energy up to to having vision to being a spiritual to giving and receiving, I think the more money you're going to attract. The last one reminds me there's a group called the wisdom of money. And it's a group mainly tailored to people of affluent means that want to be more purposeful with their money. And they have this saying that I and it's kind of a spiritual, Have some religious background to in it. But of like, I like this idea of the money is not mine. It's God's money. And it comes to me for a purpose. And it's my job to channel it, To receive it and to like use it as a purpose. Now, You know, Am I always in in that kind of headframe or in that kind of state? Not always. But so that I hope everyone rewinds and listens to that one. I actually started that course to in David's meditation app. So definitely check that out. Yeah, It's in the meditations. It's called meditation school is the app. That's, That's the place you could find it. Yeah. So let's with that, Getting maybe more pointed, Because I know, I know, I'm sure you've experienced people like this. I know, I see people that I work with, They are wanting to give their to bring an offering to the world. Or maybe it's a one on one coaching package. And they're thinking about what do I charge? And there's like, That fear that's coming up of, I couldn't charge this much. And the number is pretty arbitrary, Right? It could be $50 to $1, 000. Like, What? How do you work with someone to find a place that feels embodied feels true feels? I don't like to use the term right, But like, You know, Authentic? Yeah, I'd be curious to hear that pointed kind of feedback. So it's a little bit more complicated to find that answer than what meets the eye. There's the very kind of marketplace point of view, Which is like, How much experience do you have? What's kind of the going rate in this field for something similar? And do you want to kind of match that? So for example, Therapists, They tend to charge 150 to 300 an hour, Right? So therapists that have been going 2030 years, They're on the higher end of that scale, Newer ones on the lower end. So if you want, You can start by approaching it that way. This is my first year teaching my first year taking clients. So, Um, You know, Maybe I feel comfortable at $100 an hour or whatever it is. So there so there is Matt, You can look at the marketplace and match it. There's nothing wrong with that. If that feels comfortable to you. And then the other side of that is what you feel your value is and what kind of value you're giving people. I know a guy he charges five to $10, 000 an hour, And he mostly works with billionaires and that's his niche. That's what he does. Uh, Is he wrong to do that? I don't know. I don't think so. He just, That's what he does. It's not what I do. That's what he does. So one of the things that I do to find my price is, Is I go, I asked myself, Am I happy doing this hour at this rate? Like, Does it feel draining or does it fill me up? And if it feels draining, Then the number is too low. And so I kind of like a dial. I just raised that, That, Uh, Number until I get to a point where I feel really good. Obviously I feel the exchange is fair and not cause I also feel good. So, Um, A lot of people that they're working on some self-worth issues, They can't seem to find that number. And so they might have to do some inner work and healing around their invalidation self-worth to be able to find a number that feels good and healthy to them. So there is no right number at all. Uh, It's entirely up to you. Do you want to only work with wealthy people in charge? You know, Really high rates. Maybe that feels good to you. Maybe you do scholarships and you do a mix. Maybe you're kind of set right in the middle. Uh, And it also depends how many sessions you do. So I only do like one session every week or actually like every two weeks, They do about two sessions a month. So I'm going to charge a much higher rate because when I do a session, Even though it's an hour or so, Um, It takes like half my day energetically. Like I'll prepare, I need to rest after put a lot of energy into it. And so the amount of energy I'm putting in is how I set the rate versus the amount of time. So for me, It's not about time. It's about, It could be 60 or 90 minutes. It's about energy. And so that's how I look at, At that for myself. And then obviously the wider audience you have, The more you can charge if you want to, Right? If you have millions of people that listen to you or watch you, Then obviously you can probably charge any rate that you want. And if you're just starting out and you're, What you really want to do is get people through the door. I think of it as like a good restaurant. Like if you've got killer food and no marketing budget, Just give out free samples, Just let everyone in, Give them, Show them what you got. And so what I used to do when I was broken, So I left Hawaii and I had no audience. I had no students. So I literally just chose like five or 10 cities around America. It was like New York, Toronto, Chicago, San Diego, LA, Santa Fe, Albuquerque, Maybe another one or two in there. And I blanketed emailed every yoga studio I could find in those cities. And I said, I will come Ithaca, New York. I said, I will come teach for free. I will donate 100% of the proceeds back from whatever you guys decide to charge to your studio. I want nothing. Just let me come teach. And about one out of every 10 would say yes. And then I knew that every time I had 20 people in the room, I would get one to three or four private clients. And I used to do intuitive energy readings, That kind of stuff, Which I love. And I knew that every one person I would give a reading to, They would tell three to four more people, Because they would, Most of the time, We'd have a good time, And it would go well. So it was just at a certain point, It was just math for me to figure out I need to do this many workshops, I'll reach this many people, I'll get this many clients. And, And that just, It just snowballed for me. And the more clients I had, The more I was able to raise my rates. And what I did was use the funds from my one on ones to fund the rest of my business. So I started hiring people to help building courses, Investing in marketing. And so I would just do the one on ones and I would reinvest everything back into building so I could reach more people. And that's how I did it. I, I, You can call it hustling. I went out there and just taught for free. My first ever workshop, It was in Toronto. I showed up there and zero people showed up. Zero people. I took the bus from New York City with a guy who just got out of prison. There was a whole bunch of guys who just got out of prison. One of them, He'd been in there for like five, Six years. I was like, What are you going to do the rest of your life? He was like, I want to be an actor. Wow, This guy just got out of prison. I was like, I'm just starting my journey. We're all going for it here on this bus. That was $5 to go from New York to Toronto. And I got to Toronto that first workshop, Nobody showed up. So I sat the owner down. I was like, Let me just do a session for you. If you want. I gave her a one-on-one session. It went really well. She said, I will fill this room any day, Anytime come back. And the next day I taught at another place. The room was full, Got a bunch of clients. And that was the last time I ever taught a workshop that was empty, Knock on wood. And, And it was a great, Instead of freaking out, I said, I'm just going to work with the one person that's here, Which is the owner of the studio. And, And then West, I went, That's how it unfolded for me. And looking back, You know, When you're older, You're like, I can't do that anymore, Snowboard or whatever, My back hurts. Like looking back, I'm like, I could not do that. Now, If I had to, Like hustle that hard travel that much teach that much take that many clients. I don't have the energy in that way anymore. And I'm so for me, I'm glad that I did it kind of in my 20s when I maybe early thirties, It was, I was probably 30. Just like, I really put everything into it. And so when I teach teachers or coach people like us, And I'm like, This could take two, Three, Four, Five years to get off the ground. Are you willing to work your ass off every day from now till then to make it happen? And nine out of 10 people are, To be honest, Are not, They're just not. They wanted to come to them. And they're just for what, Whatever number of reasons, They're just not. And I just was, I was just, I was always that passionate. I always worked that hard. And there was never even a doubt in my mind. Like, I don't think there's a single time in my adult life where I thought I'm going to stop now or I can't do this. Just not, It's not that I have a lot of other doubtful thoughts about all sorts of shit. That's just not one of them. There's just never been one. So I don't know why. It's such an important just thing to highlight because I have that same experience that you, That you share. Like when I quit my job to pursue this path, And this is a little grand, A little arrogant maybe, But I literally had that kind of Will Smith mantra is two things are going to happen. I'm going to figure this out or I'm going to die. And one of those things are going to happen first. And like, I, I, Part of me and one of the courses I created about developing unshakable confidence and trust is trying to help people instill that belief in themselves. That if you do find that, That, That path of true service, That it feels, I don't know if you agree, But it's, It never felt like I had a force saying, I'm in this for the long haul. And maybe we were lucky also finding this at a younger age. Some people maybe are a little older and they, They start starting on that path. So I want to respect that. I'm coming from a young, Like male perspective of we're going to figure this out, But so much I want to reflect on, But I guess just we're on this point right now. Like what, What might you say to someone or like that is starting out on that path or maybe doesn't have quite have that belief. Maybe they're trying to find what their gift is. Maybe they're trying to tap into like, Really letting that, That be of service where they feel like, Oh yeah, There's, This is what I'm doing and I'm going to figure it out. So yeah, I'm curious what, What ideas or advice you might have in that way. Yeah. A couple of things. First of all, I just want to add that my parents did not help me out. I didn't have any money. Sometimes people like, Yeah, You probably someone, You know, Flip the bill for you. No, I, You know, Slept on couches and scrounged and did everything I could. They, They didn't. My parents are immigrants, Came to America with a hundred dollars, Survived the Holocaust, That whole thing. So I just, I just want to preface that for anybody. Sometimes they get in this and it's not fair kind of thing. The other thing I want to say is that when I started the barrier of entry was much higher and more difficult because the technology wasn't there yet, But there was less competition. And now the barrier of entry is close to zero. There is no barrier of entry. You can be a meditation teacher or spiritual teacher or healer on the internet for close to $0. So the barrier of entry no longer exists, But the competition is a hundred times more or a thousand times more because there's no barrier of entry. And when, So when I got to Los Angeles, Which is like spiritual woo-woo, You know, Mecca of earth, I don't think there's a place with more of that anywhere on earth than Los Angeles, Just in pure numbers of meditation, Teachers, Healers, Coaches, Life coaches, All of it. It's, It's a circus in the good sense and a bad sense. And when I got there, When I started teaching, What I kind of quickly learned was I just quantity is not quality and I'm just going to give out quality. And so there was a lot of quantity, But not necessarily quality. So numbers shouldn't scare you. We all have something unique to teach. We have a unique approach. Maybe we have a certain set of people, Souls out there that are meant to connect with us and not others. So I never look at it as a competition. There is no, If you're in the vibration and consciousness of you're in competition with other teachers, You're doing it wrong. You're just not in competition with anybody else. So you got to get out of that mindset first and foremost. So the barrier of entry is nothing. But there are in a, In a marketplace as competition of thousands of teachers. But when you realize you're not in competition with them, Just put out what you want to put out. That's when the magic starts to happen. And that's where it gets complicated. All right. How do I reach people? What's the right channel? Where do I go? All of that. You're never too old. You don't need money. All right. So those things you could, If you got those excuses in your head, Put them aside. I don't have enough time. Everything's recorded. It could be online till the end of time. I have stuff that gets people are listening to me while I'm sleeping in the bathroom, Taking a shower on a hike. I don't even need to be there, Right? You record, You put it out. It's there forever. If you record one meditation a week for a year, That's 20 minutes for a year. You've got 52 meditations online. That's 52 more than a lot of aspiring teachers just sitting there, Sweating it out, Afraid. So, Um, Most of the excuses are just baloney. They're just energy. Um, There's nothing stopping you from starting. Literally. There's nothing stopping anybody from starting except the energy that they're working on in themselves. Now, If this was 30 years ago, There's a lot of things stopping you. There's no internet. There's like, You got to find a place to teach. Someone has to say yes. And it's almost like being a musician. Can I get a gig? It's not like that anymore. It's you could create a podcast in five minutes. I could walk everyone through on here. Uh, You create a podcast, You know, There's like, There's no barrier of entry. That's what David does. Every time I talked to him, He's like, Lou, Just, Just create a podcast. I was like, Whatever. Yeah. And in some ways I have, You know, This, I guess, You know, Things recording meditations is, You know, In some way podcast ish, Just not in the podcast form, But you, A lot of your, Your story of, Of hustling around reminded me of when I published my book. And I do want to get a chance to talk about your book in a little bit before a few more things, But going around to speak and maybe one person shows up, No one shows up, Five people show up and just giving as much as I can, Even in that, In, In that space of like, Okay, But also feeling like I'm doing it right. Like, Um, Like you embody the thing that you want to do. And that kind of, It kind of seeps into your, Your nervous system. And, And that has kind of a, I believe that has kind of an impact in you and you continuing to live it and own it. And listen, It's the same online. You can be getting one, Three or five streams on YouTube, Just like you'd have one, Three or five people in person. So you can have the same experience in both places. And don't take that as an invalidation. It's just a start. It's like a snowball, Right? Like you start a snowball, Literally tiny, Tiny little snowball, And you can make a freaking glacier, Massive mountain over time. If you just keep rolling it and you're willing to just keep giving and giving. Now, A lot of people, They're like, I need money. I need money yesterday. And they start charging too fast, Too much. And they don't really take the time to reach people, Build trust, Build an audience. And I always say, It's a lot like dating. You don't meet somebody for your first date, Say, Hi, My name is, And they, And then try to kiss them. Like that's a big, No, No, Again, Me too for that, Right? It's not how you approach people. You have to build trust over time. And so when in same thing here, You should be giving your stuff away for free as much as you can and testing it and see if people like it, If it's resonating, If they want something different, Something more of the same. And we get so afraid of feedback and invalidation. We just, We just don't want to hear it. So it's important to really put it out there for free for a long time and keep iterating, Get feedback. And a lot of people are not willing to do that level of work because it's a lot of self work. So if I'm not putting out stuff, People appreciate and enjoy, Then there's probably something in me here that I'm not really tapped into. Because if I'm tapped into me, I'm tapped into the rest of humanity. And if I am, Then I know what it is maybe that they want and need on a deeper level. Now, Of course, I could massage that and those strategies and all that jazz. But if you really know yourself, You're going to start to understand humanity and reach them in a deeper way. If you're in your ego or in your head, Things aren't going to land and that's going to reflect and in your business and in the classes you teach. So if someone came to you and said, David, I want to tap into that, Right from from that, You know, Maybe an ego perspective of like, I'm not tapped into that. Is it just like, Hey, Go meditate until you tap into it. Give it give it a five to 10 years. Usually, It's about that's kind of the arc there. Five or 10 years, I would say. Obviously, Meditating in an effective way. Some people, I had a student come up to me and say, Oh, I don't need any of this stuff. I perfectly meditate every morning. I was like, Oh, How do you meditate? She was like, I count to 500. And when I'm done, I'm done. I was like, Great. I wish you the best of that. An hour later, She came back and was like, Think I can get one of those one on one sessions. I thought everything was good. So we could use meditation to control our situation, Right? We could kind of hold our body hostage. Or we could use meditation to heal and open up and really find out who we are. And it's one of those things that the proof is always in the pudding. So if you're meditating all the time, And you're an asshole to people, And you're whatever, You're just making a mess of life, Then you're probably really not meditating in the way that would be most effective and transformative. Some folks, They really are in their heads, They think they're meditating, They think they're making progress, They think they have the best guru, The best technique. And if you think I have the best technique, Or the best guru, Then you're in your head. If you're having those thoughts, That's already a reflection that you're just in your head, You're in your ego or something like that. It's much more of an art than a science. It's very much felt and it's something intuitive and subtle. It's your ability to have a relationship with stillness and silence. It's not a technique. It's not some gurus mantra, You know. So if you're stuck to it, If you're like, I have the best teacher or the best technique, Then yeah, It's going to be a long road. Well, We all go through a phase like that, I would say, You just want to make sure you come out of that phase after a certain point. Yeah, I've been on a few phases in this journey. I just want to speak to just the process. I know one friend, Maybe a few actually, That have just, YouTube specifically, They were showing up each week, Each week, Putting on incredible content each week, Each week. No one's watching, No one's watching. The one has now 55, 000 subscribers and is just crushing it on YouTube. I wrote an email about this recently for its own sake. I think that comes down to finding the thing that is just fulfilling in itself and the fun of learning whatever your thing is, Whether it's YouTube, Whether it's a podcast, Whether it's Insight Timer, Figuring out. Dave, You've been super helpful in helping me continue to use one piece of content to try out all. Try it all out. See what doors open for you and find a place where you want to spend time creating and whatever gift that is. My cousin has 100, 000 followers on TikTok and he's never shown his face. He just teaches you how to play guitar and there's 30 second to one minute clips. That's it. Puts one or two out a week. He just crushes it that way. And that's his zone of genius. Some people, You're very auditory, You just do audio meditations. Some people video, Some people are writers, Right? Some people are bloggers, Some people novelists, Memoir writers, Self personal help books, Whatever. So it might take testing, It might take time to find the channels, The avenues that work for you to reach people. So you, There is a testing phase, Maybe you're good at two or three or five. Most people tend to overdo it and try to do too many things. And I always say, Be really careful because every channel you choose, It's like a tree branch that grows 10 more branches. So however much work do you think it's going to be? Just multiply that amount of work by 10 and that's your baseline. And if you're good with that, Then go with it. And if you're not, Don't. So if you're like, I'm going to do YouTube podcasting, Uh, And, And, Uh, Insight timer, Like multiply each amount of work you think it's going to be times 10 and then see how you feel. So it's usually the best to start with just one thing and do a really great job of one. You don't need social media. You don't need a website. You really don't. Um, A lot of teachers, I don't recommend building everything from the ground up. I recommend you finding a river of traffic that already exists. Somebody else spent millions of dollars to get it, To create it like insight timer. And you stick your foot in, Stick your foot into a river of traffic that already exists. If you try to build it from the ground up, A few people can do that, But it's an enormous, Uh, Amount of work and it's not for everybody. So, Um, I tried to do that, Build it from the ground up and then insight timer worked out nicely for me, Uh, Starting to reach students and an audience. And that was something that was already built. Somebody else, You know, Funded that. And then from there, I was able to build stuff on my own, But it was finding a river of traffic first, Uh, And not the other way around. So there's no one right way to do it, But the easier way, If you've got great content tends to be to find a river of traffic that already exists. And, And if your zone of genius is being a teacher, Then you should spend 80% of your time creating content and helping people. So, Um, If you're not, Then probably want to reassess kind of what's going on. A question that I was asked, Um, David is, Is through meditation school is leading a 250 hour meditation teacher certification coming up in February. And, Um, I'm honored to be a part of it. And we talk about in that running a conscious business and it's a funny question to ask, But what, How would, Would you define a conscious business? Yeah, That's a great question. I think just like we would define a conscious relationship, Uh, Or a conscious piece of art or anything else we bring awareness to in life. And part of bringing awareness to something in life is recognizing all of the unconscious programming in places that we've been operating from. So my definition, One of them that I like to use for meditation is bridging the unconscious and the conscious. Uh, Or when we say something like enlightenment, Right? It's like turning the light on in a dark room. So we're turning the light on in our unconscious. A lot of us, We, Most of our behavior comes from the unconscious comes from our past comes from places. We've been hurt that we've, You know, Hid away that creates the masks that we wear. So whether it's in your personal life or professional life, It's the same. So you can say you're running a conscious business, But if you're a jerk to everybody, I don't care if you're selling enlightenment, You're still a jerk. And to me, That's just not a conscious business. So there, So you're bringing awareness into the work that you do, Which is a baseline. Like I'm actually present with the work that I'm doing, But I'm also working on all the unconscious stuff. So the discussion we had about money, That might be a layer of it. Uh, Maybe a layer of invalidation of, Am I good enough? Can I have this? Do I have enough self-worth, Right? There might be a layer of connected to your higher self or some deeper purpose to the universe and channeling that energy out into your business. So there are layers to a conscious business. It's not just, It's not just being aware in the moment while you're typing. I think it's clicking for me. It's like the business becomes a vehicle for your conscious work in a way. Michael Singer talks a lot about this. Yeah. She has a program of like living the untethered soul at work, Right? He's runs a billion dollar software company and is this like world-renowned spiritual teacher. And he says his life is not any different doing that thing than doing, You know, Sitting in Samadhi and whatnot. So it's fascinating. So it becomes the vehicle for your own self-development rather than it just being an unconscious thing that you do for whatever gratification or reasons. And your business will reflect what's really going on in your unconscious. So if you're attracting shitty people to work for you, If you're having a lot of issues, My dog is barking, Sorry. She's having issues. Um, I'm dog sitting. If you, You know, If, If there's a lot going on there, That's not, Uh, Resonating and there's chaos, Then we gotta take a look at what's really happening inside of you, How you relate to other people, To money, To your business. So, Yeah, I agree with you on that front. So where, Where, Where can people fall into running an unconscious business? Like what are the pitfalls there? Yeah. Obsessing about money, Being afraid, Right. Always projecting into the future and never being present. Uh, Treating some people better than others based on their status could, Could be a way, Right? Oh, You're important. You're not important. Um, The way you treat yourself, All of it, Really all of it. Uh, Are you really doing the work to help people or are you doing it just for yourself? So I had a friend reach out to me once and say, Hey, I have some questions about coaching. I want to start coaching and do some programs. And my first question back to them was why? And, Uh, This person said, Cause I want to live on the beach and surf and not work much. And I said, What the hell does that have to do with helping anybody else? And they're like, Well, Whatever. I don't care. I'm not helping you. I want you the best. Um, And so we have to be our heart chakras, Our heart center, Whatever you want to call it has to actually be open and we have to be willing to give, Right? To give and to receive Glenn and Doyle always says, If you want to find your purpose, Find what breaks your heart. So is there something in the world you want to heal people you want to help? What is the reason that you're actually doing this? And I just want to caveat that with, You don't just wake up and go, I want to help everybody. It's a muscle that the heart is a muscle that we build. So maybe you're only at 5% ready to serve. And then you, You keep giving, And then it goes to 10 and you keep giving, And then you wake up and it goes to 20 and then 30 and then 50. And then all of a sudden you're like, Oh my God, I love helping people and giving and it's pouring out of you. And when that happens, When you cross a threshold, Maybe 60, 78, Let's say 80%, You're just like, It's pouring out of you to help people. That's when the money and response pours back in. So that that'll reflect if you're really there. And if you're not, You shouldn't crap on yourself and say, Well, I'm just, I am worried about money. I'm worried about myself. That's fine. We're humans. We're all wired to worry about ourselves. We have to develop into these spiritual beings and physical bodies. We have to develop our hearts. So if you don't have that much giving energy, That's work on it. You could practice every day, Having gratitude, Just giving, Giving, Giving in every way you can. And for me, When obviously I was like everyone else, When I started, I was like, I need money. I don't want to ever have a job. I want to teach. I want to be out there. And then the more feedback I got from people, The more people sent messages, Hey, You helped me so much in this way or that way, The more my heart started to open, The more I wanted to help them. It was almost like a feedback loop that happened. And then it just became second nature where I just wanted to help all the time. And that's when I would say things for me personally. And then the career space really started to shift like where the genuine wanting to help energy really came out and hit its stride. You know, Like, Can feel so similar in exactly what you're saying. Yeah. So don't be mad at yourself if you're not fully there yet. Like, Oh, I really do just care about what I need. Mostly build the heart muscle just like anything else. Just build a work on it. Don't invalidate yourself. Yeah. I was giving a talk at a high school the other day, And the woman who had me come in or just to a class and we're talking afterwards. And she's, You know, She's this interesting woman. And she's talking about, She never expected herself to be at a high school, But she has all these ideas. And like, She wants to do these things. And I'm like, Oh, It sounds like why don't you just do what I do? Like, Why don't you go speak and, You know, Get come in and do this stuff. And she goes, Oh, No, I could never. I could never run run my do my own business. I can never do because I, I would never figure out admin. And that was her response. And so I say that story to just highlight because my response to her was like, I have no idea what I'm doing in admin. David Gandelman told me to get QuickBooks once. And I tried it for like a month and I was like, I can't do this. And, And it was like, Forget this. Oh, You have to hire someone for QuickBooks. Yeah, No, You can't do yourself. No, No, I do. Yes. But what, What, What do people not, I sometimes feel like I'm just, You know, Throwing stuff at wall and I'm figuring out as I go along. And so what do people not understand about running a business or like what overwhelms people at first? Yeah. Yeah. Great, Great question. And by the way, If you're making at least in the thousands of dollars a month, You should, You should definitely have QuickBooks in America. I don't know what it's like from David today. Great. Yeah. And you should probably hire someone to do that for you. Repeat the question one more time. What do most people not understand about running a business or get overwhelmed with? Yeah, That they don't have to do everything themselves. If you're building a home, You're not, You don't have to be the electrician and the plumber and the carpenter and the appraiser and the real estate agent. Uh, That's where people get really stuck. I watch so many people and I did this myself, Spend like three months on building a website and they have no idea what they're doing. They're on Squarespace or Wix, Just sweating it out, Hating life. It's a complete waste of time. You can hire someone in the Philippines probably to build you a website for $300 to get out of the gate. Right? The technology wall. Most people who are teachers and healers, They don't love technology. They're healers and teachers. They like books usually. So they hit the technology wall. I don't know how to do that. And they quit or they stop. They freeze. They get afraid. Same thing. If your, If your toilet got stuck, You would just not stop going to the bathroom. If you didn't know how to fix it, You would call a plumber and you go, Damn, That plumber is expensive, But wow, Going to the bathroom is worth it. Going to the bathroom is worth a couple hundred dollars. Having a toilet for when guests come over is worth a couple hundred dollars. So it's the same thing. And a lot of people, It's really a reflection of how much they value their business and they value themselves. If you're not willing to spend a few hundred dollars to get over a technology wall, Then that's a reflection of how much you really value or don't value yourself and your business. And that was true for me. I really didn't value it. And so I didn't spend money for a long time and I was stuck for a long time. So you got to realize you need to hire people. One of the, For online businesses, Upwork is, Upwork. Com is the place to hire people. Most of the time, If you want something really cheap, Fiverr, F I V E R R. Com, Fiverr, Get stuff done for five bucks. You know, You're going to get a lot of bad stuff done and you're going to learn a lot of lessons, But it's a way to start. Those are the two best places to get going on, On a low budget. And you hire who you can afford. You don't need to feel bad if you can't hire an American person at $80 an hour. If you don't have any money, No one's, No one's getting help if you have no money to hire them anyway. So hire people in countries you can afford with great reviews and stars and all of that and get it done. And you should focus in your genius zone on your genius zone, Which is probably teaching and or making content. And this is where most people get stuck and just never move past this point. They're just not willing to get the help that they need and spend the money they need to spend to get off the ground. And like I said, The barrier of entry is very, Very low. I'm almost ashamed to say this, But when I had literally no money living in Hawaii, I hired someone at the time in the Philippines for $2 an hour. And it was like, Incredible. Just to like get someone to help me a little bit. And that's what I could afford. And they were down to do the work. If they weren't, They wouldn't have done it. We ended up having a great relationship for years. And I was able to pay them more and more and more. Right. So start where you can. And there is almost no barrier of entry on any of this. If you have no money at all, You just take your phone out and you go on Instagram. And you just do it there or on YouTube. And you just edit, You know, You don't even have to edit, Just start posting. So most of the excuses are just our resistance to the technology wall. This is the biggest lesson probably I've taken from you and continue to, To see the fruits in my own business as I've let go of the reins of things and the feeling that things are happening and I don't have to do them and has allowed me to like channel and focus in. So I just want to highlight and, And, You know, You have to get to a certain place. I think I was always good at investing in myself, But it gets to another level of like, Okay, Now I'm gonna, It doesn't even have to. So I wish, I guess, In reflecting back, I wish I would have started sooner. Like I could have started sooner. I felt like I needed to really be successful. And then oh, Then I can outsource people and hire people. And it's, You don't have to do that. I think another thing you've told me is like every dollar into your business is, Is $10 in some ways, $10 you're investing like later on. And I've just taken that kind of energetic stance to be really, Really helpful. It's, It's not spending, It's investing. Those are two very, Very different things. Spending is when you go buy a shirt. Spending is when you buy ice cream. Spending is when you go on a roller coaster. If you're paying money to build your business that is investing and you're expecting a return. And yes, You, In the long run, It should be a 10 X return or more in the long run. I don't know how long that run is. Everyone's different based on where they are in their business. Right. Um, And, And so are you really valuing yourself enough to do that? And I got started too late too. I waited a long time. I was so nervous or I was afraid of spending money, All of the things. So I I'm, I'm with you. Most of us, We get, It's hard to get it going out of the gate. We need a little push. I really didn't actually get it going until I hired a business coach. And I'll never forget it. My friend, Jamie, Uh, Moran, He's teaching in the teacher training that me and you are doing the, He's going to be doing the business section level three. And, Um, He was like, It was like $800 a month to help me out. And I was like, $800. Why don't you take my first born? $800. Well, I'm just going to quit, You know, And I begrudgingly paid him and he kicked my ass and, Uh, I got my stuff off the ground and I wouldn't have, If I hadn't paid him that money, It wasn't even what he did for me. It was the fact that I put the money down, He gave me some advice and I was so invested at that point. I was so nervous about losing it that I just got a fire lit under me and I just got it started getting it done. So it's not about the quantity from a coach. It's about the quality. It might be one hour, But in that one hour, They spark an idea or an energy and you just go. So the value is when you're paying for coaches, It's not in the per hour, It's in the outcome of the value that you're getting. And that value in one hour could be 10, 000, 50, 000, A million dollars, You know, One amazing idea, One huge shift. Maybe you're stuck on something, You've been stuck on something for a decade in your psyche and they get you through it. So the value is in the outcome, Not in the time. Yeah. That's where it can be. That's where it's hard to like, Get hard to express that. Cause I've experienced that investing. Um, It's all at a different level, Right? I remember when a hundred dollars felt like, Okay, This was where I invest in the coach and then where $400, Okay, This is where I invest in the coach. And then, You know, Even going, You know, Coaches charge a lot, But what I found is like, It's, It's hard to quantify like what even once like one session can be worth the entire coaching package. Like it's, It's hard to, To quantify in that way. And if you don't have money for coaching, Just go on YouTube, Just go on this. You're listening to this podcast. It's completely free, Right? So you're not getting the direct feedback, Maybe like you're asking the question about you personally, But you're getting a ton of information, A ton of knowledge. There's so many good business teachers, Coaches out there that, I mean, Just so there's tons of information. So you do what you can until you can afford it. That's how we all get started. Uh, There's absolutely nothing wrong with that arc. So who are you learning from nowadays? And you can take that in business or spirituality. Yeah. First I'll get business. Let me pull up those two, Those two podcasts I listened to, Uh, Mostly on, On marketing that I really enjoy. Um, I got them right here. Uh, The first one is, And this is, It's just James Schramko, S C H R A M K O. That's the name of the show. And he, He's a Australian and he, And he just does a ton of stuff around marketing and working your own business. I just like the guy just like he's very straight. And, Um, Like with his information is very direct. And I just, I like that one. Uh, And then the other one that I've been listening to is the art of online business just called the art of online business. And it's another podcast that I really, Really liked is these two guys. I just, I like how they do it. There's much more motivational people like, Um, Brendan Bouchard, You know, Sometimes he's a little intense though. Uh, On the female side, My favorite teacher is Marie Forleo. I think she is amazing. Uh, If you need, If, And then the other one that I really like is, Um, What's this woman's name? Amy Porter is really great too. So, Uh, I love listening to Amy Porter and Marie Forleo, Um, On the female side and James Schramko and the art of online business. I can't remember his name, Uh, On the male side, Rick Mulready is, Is, Is that guy's name? So I don't listen to too many things. I did listen to Tim Ferriss for a long time. Um, I've listened to a lot of different stuff. There's tons. Good question. What was it like when you heard your name? Cause I'm a, Me and you like share, Like I started my journey in the, In some ways the entrepreneurial world. And so as, As someone who read Tim Ferriss as his first book, And then for those that don't know, One of the episodes, Um, I think the CEO of Shopify, I remember listening to it. I was like, Well, They just say David Gandelman. He mentions David, Um, On this, This podcast, Which has like millions and millions of downloads. And it's been one of my favorite podcasts for a long time. Like what was that moment like for you? Yeah. I think he's close to a billion downloads, Tim Ferriss. Um, It was, It was great. It was really validating. Uh, I've reached out to the CEO of Shopify and LinkedIn. We had a little conversation, Which was also really nice. And it was really, It was, Uh, It was almost like coming full circle. Whereas reading that four hour work week in my little place in Hawaii, Go like, Oh, What do I do? Uh, To like, Yeah, Some years later getting a shout out on that, Uh, On that podcast. So it felt like, Uh, Like a full coming full circle. It was really nice. It was, It was sweet. Yeah. So cool. Sorry, Cut you off on any, Any other recommendations. Yeah. By the way, I just want to say, I would not be Tim Ferriss's teacher. He wouldn't, He wouldn't appreciate my work. I don't think at all, Because I don't teach in the Sam Harris kind of, Let me explain the neuroscience to you, Uh, Or in the biology kind of way. Uh, I, And, And this is important for all teachers to know what kind of teacher you are. So I have a singing teacher named Josh South. He's the best singing teacher ever. If you ever need a good one, Uh, He's got a great YouTube channel sing with Josh and he's not teaching me the physics of sound. We don't sit there and he's going, This is what a sound wave looks like. And this is what sound waves are made of. And this is the physics of the universe. Now sing that doesn't help. All right. Same with swimming or anything else. That's actual activity or art. So I think people get mixed up with meditation. They think if they explain the neuroscience and the benefits of meditation, That now they're teaching you meditation that has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is a subjective experience. If you want to explain the physics of meditation, The biology, The chemistry, The neuroscience of meditation, That's great, But you're describing the effects of a phenomenon, But you're not teaching me how to sing. So I'm a singing teacher in that sense. I'm going to teach you how to meditate. I'm not going to explain the nature of everything to you, The universe and beyond so that some intellectual egoic part of you can feel fulfilled that, All right, This is mainstream science accepts this. Now I could try it or whatever the thing is. I'm just not that guy. Sam Harris is amazing at that. I don't know if there's anyone better on earth. You want the neuroscience, Go listen to Sam Harris for a thousand hours and you're going to get it. He's fantastic. But I know that I am not that guy and I'm not interested in being that guy. And some people that I looked up to at Bartoli, He's not that guy, You know, Adyashanti, Not that kind of guy either. So we have to be honest with what kind of teacher we are. If you have a real like, Like just love the neuroscience and explaining it, Then you should do that. But that is not the same as teaching meditation. You could do both and then go hand in hand. It's great to explain the neuroscience and then do the meditation. That's fantastic. Um, So just being aware of what kind of teacher you actually are and leaning into I'm definitely not the science guy. So I want to ask, Uh, We'll go maybe a layer deeper and share with you something that I might've shared a little bit, But I think it'd be, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't share how, What was going on behind the scenes. I remember when we actually met for the first time. So for those, It's a crazy, Crazy, Synchronistic story, Really. And when I look at it, I'm like, Dude, What crazy. So I was running a meditation group in New Jersey and David's mom was attending the group and she would attend and she would always tell me, It's like, Oh, My son is like doing something like this. You got to like talk to my son. I was like, Oh, And this is, This is where I was. And you mentioned the competition and envy. That's been something I've had to go through. But I remember the point being like, Who's this guy, This guy, Who's the son? Like I wasn't mom just telling me to go see him, But then I went and it must've been on your, That tour that you were talking about. I remember I went to see you in New York, I think New York and it's funny. Cause I remember sitting there, It was 2017 January and you were asking people like what they wanted, Like they wanted to do, What was their purpose? Or I forgot what the question was, But I was like, I want to, I want to do what you're doing. Um, And it's awesome. You know, Afterwards, I think what I found was, I think it brought up a lot of my, That competitiveness, That, That, That, That jealousy or envy. And I, And in many ways I've had to like, That's been a big, I think the things that come up, Right. They become also the gifts that you share. And so, You know, If I look back and I'm like, Lou, Not that it's about taking advantage, But you had an opportunity, You know, You were, You've been like, You know, A couple of steps ahead of me. And so I remember you did give me one great piece of advice then post as much as you can to insight timer. This was in 2017. And I actually, And I did, But I didn't really like, I still made the boat, But, Um, That was like another epic piece of advice from David Gandelman. But I look back at that and I'm like, Dude, Humble yourself and like actually like ask for some help. Like, I don't, I don't think I had such like, Uh, I had the spiritual ego. I think I had the, A little, I had a crazy awakening that kind of led me to have a little bit of, Um, Messiah complex. So I thought that I was like, I knew it all. That was like a phase I went through. That's an age thing too. That's an age thing. And your males in their twenties tend to get, We get, We get that. Yeah. So I had that. And I have so much love and compassion for that version of me, But it stopped me from, I think, And all in perfect timing, But from actually being humble enough to like ask other people for help. And that's something I've really tried to like learn. I think the first time I actually asked you for help, I was like, I emailed you and was like, David, How do you put a YouTube video on your website or something? It was something like super basic. So I guess I say that to be like, I don't know if that energy ever came across, But to say no, To, To be like, To just share, Share that with you, Because I feel, I guess shame around going through that. And it's also been, If you take my courses, Envy, Judgment, Jealousy is a big theme because I've worked through those layers in myself. So I share that story. You're welcome to reflect on it as any, If you want. But the question from that is like, What is your envy? Like what has been your stuff that you've went through that has like infuse your own growth and your embodiment of your teaching? So before I get to that question, I think that was still the best piece of advice I ever gave you was that first piece. You didn't want to post that much on insight timer. Cause I go, I'm going to give away all my stuff. And I said, No, No, No, No, No. There's no one to give your stuff away to right now. Who are you? Who are you? Like, No, There's, You're not making money here. So give away all your stuff, All of it now as much as possible. And now Lou is one of the more popular teachers on an app that has 14, 000 teachers and 22 million users. And it's because you started giving your stuff away and sharing. And there's a teachers that'll put two meditations on there and be like, Why isn't it going anywhere? And they're like money. It's like, No, No, No, That's not how this works. You give, You give, You give, You give once in a while, There's a unicorn, Like our friend Sarah Blondin who just like says a word. And then the internet blows up and she's just, You know, All of that. And the rest of us dodo heads, We have to work at it, You know, So you got unicorns and then the rest of us have to actually work at it. And so, And then to your question about what, What I've had to work through is, I mean, I don't know if we have six more hours, But you know, Invalidation, Like the story I told earlier about falling off the ladder and getting hit on the head, Always comparing myself to my teachers. There are other stories where I shared, I had that same thought, Bird took a crap all over me, Right? When I had that thought, I've got these stories on, I'll have this invalidating thought, I'll hit my head, You know, I'll slip and things, Stuff like that would always happen like very visceral physical reactions, Responses. And so invalidation, Am I good enough to be a teacher? That at the beginning of my cycle as a teacher would come up all the time. And there's one layer, There's like one angle of that. You can work by meditating, Working with therapists, Coaches, Guides, Doing the inner work, But there's a certain amount of that that you will never get through except by teaching. It's almost like going, Well, I'm afraid of public speaking. So I'm just going to meditate and work on my insecurities. Yeah, That's helpful, But no, No, No, No. You got to do 10, 000 hours of public speaking and you're going to iron those kinks out in the moment in the action. So it's a double-sided coin. A lot of people, They focus too much on one or too much on the other. So you got to do both. And for me, I got a job public speaking in Hawaii as a side job, Doing marketing and sales for this tour company. I was doing five to 10 talks a day in front of people. I did like hundreds, If not thousands of these, That probably, Yeah, Over a thousand. And I just ironed out the kinks of everywhere. I was afraid. I was nervous. I would stumble. I would use filler words. You know, I would leave my body, All the things I would stare at one person, All the things to the point where one day somebody asked me one woman was like, Hey, Are you in toast masters? I was like, What's toast masters. She's like, Oh, It's a public speaking group. I was like, No, She goes, Well, You do all the things that we learn in public speaking group. I was like, Oh, Oh, I just did it 10, 000 million times. And I guess I just kind of picked it up the hard way, But I didn't. So if you want to be a good meditation teacher, There's literally only one way and it's the painful way. And it's teaching over and over and over and over and just getting better. Just like, I mean, It's the most basic stuff, Right? It's like every single thing in life. It's the same equation. And luck is when preparation and opportunity come together. That's it. Maybe there's some karma in there, But luck is preparation and opportunity. Preparation is hard work and opportunity is, You know, Right. Place the right time, Putting yourself out there over and over to be seen. So for me, Invalidation was the really big one. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing and shout out to toast masters. That was my come up of public speaking. I was going to two toast masters meeting a week. Awesome. I'm going to be a public speaker and a lot of love for toast masters. And yeah, It's a, If you're, If you're wanting to develop speaking, Find a group near you. By the way, Number one, Fear on earth surveys, Public speaking, Number two, Death is number one, Public speaking, Number two, Death people rather die than speak in public. So if that's you and you want to be a teacher, Get your ass in front of groups and just go for it over and over and over. That was, I, I, That was part of me creating my own training too, And doing, You know, These, It was through meetup. Com. I was doing these workshops and just getting reps and feeling so freight, Feeling sweating before about to go on just completely, Just paralyzing fear and still moving through that. So it's, It's a part of the journey. Yeah, Absolutely is. Um, And same, You can say the same for dating, Like being rejected all the time or job search go, You know, It's putting yourself out there, All of it. Right. Over and over and over. When I was a kid, We used to go bowling a lot my family and my parents would make me go up to the front desk to pay for stuff and ask for stuff. Cause I was so shy, Nervous about it. I hated it, But I would just do it over and over until I got comfortable. And that was a big one for me too, As a kid. And when I used to do public speaking in high school, Middle school, I would literally shake. Like it'd be the most gut wrenching experience ever. Uh, And I, I just grew into it with practice. So if you're like, Oh, You must've been cool. Public speaking all the time. Hell no. I was a mess. Derek server talks about Derek servers whom I imagine you might know who that is. He talks about, Uh, He's um, Oh, You'd love Derek servers. He's kind of like a Seth go to knee guy. He's had a great, Yeah, He's, He's, He's amazing, But he has this thing called rejection therapy where you just go and you do things that you're, You're, You're got goal is to get rejected, Right? To like you ask someone to take a bite of their sandwich or you ask someone for a hundred dollars or you just make you also, I have a thing with making the thing you're afraid of your goal. If you're afraid to get rejected, Go get rejected 20 times, Like make that your goal. And then all of a sudden you succeeded because that's your goal. I think he might be the guy that tells a story or maybe he's the guy who did it where with dating, Uh, There was one guy who did it with dating. He was like, I'm going to go out and get rejected, Um, Five times every day by a woman, Something like that. I might be getting the story wrong for one year. And, Uh, It was excruciating and he would do it and do it and do it. And he started caring so little about being rejected and became so confident that, Uh, He just wouldn't get rejected. Women would just give him his number, Their, Uh, Their number all the time. And, And he'd have to just go to more and more women to just try to finally get rejected to his quota of the day towards the end of that year. Now that, I don't think I've got the guts for that. I don't, I know I don't at the moment to do that, But that was his, Uh, Cross to bear. Like that was, That's what, That was his initiation. And so whatever you're the most afraid of, You probably care the most about, And that's probably the place you should lean in and, And do it. And it bite size, Maybe do it a thousand times, One degree every single time over and over. Compounds. Um, Just to plug one direct servers video. I think you'd love this video is called YouTube leadership lessons from a dancing guy. It's phenomenal, Phenomenal video. Well, David, This went faster. It always seems to, And the two times I've done this. So, Um, From my minimal experience, I want to give an opportunity one. I know you published a book in February. I would want to reflect on like, What's that been like since, And I know your book's called seven energy of the soul. I'd love to know which energy you feel like most connected to in your own journey. And then maybe we can talk about the teacher training. That's, That's coming up too. Sure. So, Uh, First of all, I have a free quiz to find out which energies are dominance. If you just type in seven energies of the soul quiz, You'll find it. And when I took my own quiz, My, Uh, Lover came in number one. So I guess I'm a heart centered kind of guy. And then I think my, Uh, Creator and master somewhere to close tie for a second. So master would be the, Maybe the mentor, The teacher, The guide and us leader, And creator would be like the entrepreneurial part of me. So none of that should be by the end of this conversation, Uh, You know, Surprising the number one response. I think over 15, 000 people have taken the quiz is actually the healer has come in first. Now we've got a self-selecting audience of sensitive people. So I don't want to say that's the broader, You know, Audio, You know, Kind of people out in society, But, Um, That's what we've noticed is the healer comes in first. So that's, It's a nice thing to take. Uh, And so very briefly, The seven energies, The creator, The healer, The warrior, The lover, The artist, The explorer and the master. So those are the seven and writing a book was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Writing doesn't come easy to me. I did not love the process, But I got through it. Luckily found a nice publisher to really, You know, Finish it off with me and get it out into the world. And it's been great. I think at some point, Most teachers should write a book. It's a great way to leave, Uh, Some of your wisdom with the world in case you get hit by a bus and just when you go and, And to reach people. So, Um, I, I, I thoroughly enjoy having a book much more than I do did writing it. Um, And David's got a great YouTube video out on, On advice for people that are thinking about writing a book. So instead of asking that here, I want to point people to that video on his YouTube channel. Yeah, I do. I forgot about that. Thanks for mentioning that. Yeah. Teacher training, Teacher training. Yes. Let's talk about this for a moment. Cause it's, It's pretty phenomenal and exciting. And, Um, Yeah, It, It, It seems like the, Like, It just seems right in a lot of ways and I'm super excited about it. Yeah. So very briefly, There's only one other meditation teacher training certification out there that I think, Um, Is really amazing, Which is Jack Kornfield and Tara Brocks. Uh, And it, And it's about two years long. It's fantastic. And it's mindfulness based stress reduction, Buddhism, You know, That's, That's their training. And it's fantastic from, From what I've heard. But for me as a teacher and what I've had to go through, I realized that there wasn't what I would do as if I was doing a teacher training, Cause, Um, They're not doing the business side of it, Which is most of this conversation or a lot of our conversation today. Uh, Also breaths, Uh, Learning the breadth of traditions, Eastern Western mysticism, Finding your own voice. So I've kind of found my own voice. I'm not a Buddhist or, Or MBSR teacher is just kind of me. And so again, That, So that structure doesn't fit for me. Uh, And there are people out there like me and like you are that structure. We're not that we're not in that niche. So there's no good meditation teacher training out there that I could find that was broader and taught the business side of actually getting out there and being a teacher other than just being really famous, Which is comes at the latter end for like a couple of people. Uh, And so I wanted to put one together because I love as much as I love coaching. Like you said, I love coaching meditation. Teachers is just a passion I've always had. I coach people for free constantly all the time. If you catch me on the street and ask me a question about it, Like I won't be able to stop. So is just something I really love doing. I was like, All right, Well, It's pouring out of me all the time. I've got like a dozen amazing friends who are incredible teachers like you. So I brought everybody together. We've got business teachers and, Um, Hypnotherapy, You know, People like you who work on purpose and all of these different areas, Mindfulness and awakening and Reiki, You know, Everything you can think of. I brought them all together, Um, To teach this nine month program. So it's three levels, Three months per level, Uh, Level one, Mastering meditation, Level two, Mastering teaching and level three mastering the business side of it and, And getting your message and your teaching out into the world. Find, You know, The best practices for that. On that end, We have a friend of ours, Kyle, Who, Um, Has worked with every, Everybody from Eckhart Tolle to Brene Brown to, Uh, Michael Singer and beyond man, Williamson, I mean, Name anybody. And also, Um, Our, Our guy, Matt Jenkowskis, Hopefully I'm saying his last name, Right. I always mess it up. Who's worked with all of those teachers as well. So they're real pros on like how to build a course, How to get your work out there into the world. And I'm really excited about that. And then you and all the other amazing teachers, Uh, Teaching the actual content of meditation and how to teach it. So I think it's a really full robust program, Uh, The right amount of time and I'm super excited to get started. It's starting February 8th, 2023. We'll probably run it once a year or less to see how it goes. Um, And yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to be in there with all of you and teach it. It's going to be great. I'm so excited for it. So if you're listening, Obviously, If you're here now, Um, Meditation school. Us, Is that correct? Meditation school. Us is, Uh, Yeah, Where you can sign up. Yeah. So, Um, We'd love to, If that interests you or sparks, You feel free to reach out to me or David, If you have questions on it. I want to add something to that. When I, When I bought my domain name meditation school. Us, Uh, Meditation school. Com was available for five, Six, $7, 000, Something like that. I was like, Oh no, I can't get it. It's too expensive. Uh, Since I built my business as meditation school, Do you want to know how much that domain costs today? 50 K a hundred thousand dollars. Maybe it's even more than I haven't checked in a while. And all of that is from, Uh, The SEO that I built, Right. From the app and the website and all of that. So I priced myself out of my own domain name. The cool thing is that domain names don't matter anymore. Just nobody cares. Everything is a Lincoln link tree. Everything is a bitly link. It doesn't matter. I have an app. Most of it's on Apple anyway, But, Um, I thought it mattered so much, But it was just so funny that I priced myself out of my own link, Uh, URL. So funny. So funny, David, I feel like call to just end with maybe a Tim Ferrissy question of, Of, Of, If you had a billboard or message to get out to people on a, On a billboard to billions of people, What would that message be? There's one that I've really stepped into recently, Which is, Uh, Enlightenment is not the attainment of perfection, But it's the acceptance of imperfection. And I think most of us as human beings, We just struggle so much with a lack of self-love and self-worth and invalidation. And the path through that is not by making ourselves perfect by, But by accepting our imperfections and in essence, Accepting our humanity, Which is just a really hard thing to do. We've got these raging monkey animals in us. You know, We oscillate from happiness to depression, And it's not only, It's not an easy ride on this planet and it's temporary and it's there's pressure. And so if you could really find your way into accepting the unacceptable into accepting the resistance and the pain and the frustration, Accepting the feelings of not good enough, Accepting the imperfection, That's when you're going to transform. And that like little bud is going to open up into a flower and really blossom. It's so counterintuitive. It's so like, What, How can that be it? But that's what enlightenment always is. When you hit it, It's always like, What? That's it? No way. Yeah. That's how, You know, You hit something. Cause you're like, What? That's so paradoxical. The truth is always paradoxical. So the closer to truth you get, The more paradoxical it becomes. That should be a telltale sign that you're getting close. You're here, Brother. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and I'm super fun to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for listening to the awakening to purpose podcast. If you like what you heard, Please leave a review. It helps people find it and trust that this is worth their time. Share it with a friend and you're always welcome to reach out to me at lewredman. Com. If you want to stay updated, Go to my website and sign up for lose letters, Which I share some of the content on here. And you'll be the first to hear about it and all the other good things I have going on. And just to repeat if this is before February 13th of 2023 to check out David and I's, Uh, Meditation teacher training, The training that he's running. Then I'll be fortunate enough to be a guest teacher on. It is a really intensive and really special offering to the world. And if you're looking to, To, To grow your skills as a guide, As a teacher, As a space holder, And also to learn the business end of it, Definitely check out meditation schools, Teacher training, And maybe consider it. And if it's after February, I think it'll be running yearly. So definitely stay on David or I's list to be heard when the next time that offering is going to be there. Thank you so much for your time, Your attention, Your energy. And I hope you go out into the world and bring this light, This gift, This purpose into your life and may it impact all those that comes across. All right, That is it. Take care, Everyone. The music you heard is a song called Nova by River Roots. Thank you so much for listening.

Reviews

Thank you

This is a great talk of my 2 favorite teachers. Thank you guys. It was helpful, wise, funny and motivating.
A perfect add on to transformational work into the business world.
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Amazing wisdom!

What an interesting and informative talk! Learned a lot and fun to listen to! Two of my Insight Timer favorites—thank you for sharing insight and wisdom!