Interview: Rev. Dr. Keith Haney ~ The Miraculous Healing!

In this longer episode Rev. Dr. Keith Haney talks about being asked to pray over a woman who was expected to pass. He was a new reverend, at a new parish, and was jumping in the deep end. He began wondering about prayer, and just how he was expected to help the family, being only human after all! What happened next changed lives, and convinced him that our voices hold way more power than we understand!

Transcript

Hello, Everyone, And welcome back to your next episode of the podcast. This time, I'm introducing you to Reverend Dr. Keith Haney, Who is a builder of bridges and unity in a divided world. And we actually have a really, Really potent conversation about racism in this episode. But also, Dr. Haney talks about what it's like to be a leader and how to be a leader and just exactly how to have difficult conversations around racism and bringing people together. Reverend Dr. Haney is all about cultivating safe spaces for difficult conversations. But I'm going to be honest, I was captivated from the second we said hello. So I hope that you are, Too, Because his miracle is quite powerful and reminded me that sometimes the power of prayer and using our voices well is exactly what we need. Miraculous story was there was a 25 year old young lady who was in the hospital and they didn't know what was going on. She was not responding well. The family asked me to come to the hospital and pray with her because they were going to pull the plug. And so I'm going, I don't know what to say. We don't we didn't have a class on bedside, You know, Funeral prayers, Especially because Lutherans don't have it. We don't have like the last rites as that's a Catholic thing. But how would you introduce yourself? Hmm, Interesting. That's hard because I don't I don't think I often don't think about myself in terms of what I do as much as how God has used me. And so for me, It is more of in this particular space, This particular moment in time, How is God using me to do something for him? And so when I think about it, Sometimes I put on the role of a church consultant. Sometimes I'm a preacher. Sometimes I'm working with people with human care issues or stewardship. So there are different roles. And then, Of course, My favorite role is being a father and husband because that's what my greatest joy comes from. So for me, There's like depends on what situation I'm in is how I would define it. And I'm ever so curious, Obviously, I looked over your profile, But I like to be genuinely surprised with my guests. You know, What did you dream about doing when you were a kid? Like what did you envision for yourself? Well, It's funny because I grew up in the Deep South in the early 1970s, And I always thought that God would use me for something that was going to help transform the culture that I grew up in. My parents and my grandparents were very much aware of the tensions and the racial issues in the South, But never let that be what defined us. So we weren't like bitter. We weren't upset. We just understood that there was more and more opportunity. And so I knew that I was going to do something in my life. I didn't know what. About high school, Though, I went to a workshop and God spoke to me when I was in high school and said, You're going to be a pastor. And so I did not knowing what the process was in our church body, I immediately applied. So when I graduated high school, I was going to go to seminary, But realized that that's not how it worked, That you had to go get a degree first. So I ended up going to college. And then it was a master level degree in our church body. And so I had to go to school first and then go back. And when I was in school and college, I really kind of lost that desire to be a pastor. And then God got me again and sent my name in or someone sent my name into the seminary for a campus visit. And my godmother paid for me to go down to St. Louis to visit. I'd never been on a plane before, Never really left the South. And so I'm on a plane flying to St. Louis and I fell in love with the campus. I'm like, OK, This is what I'm supposed to do again. And finished up. I didn't know how close I was to graduating. I found out I was within a semester. So I graduated in December and I was back on track to be a pastor again, So. Wow, It's like you think you have one plan for your life and then you kind of get, You know, Because I've done this certainly, I kind of, You know, But me with my ADHD, I'm like, Oh, Look, A chicken. And then I'll totally just go over in this direction. And then, You know, That force just kind of, Of course, Corrects and says, Hello, You know, You know, Pay attention, Pay attention. I got I have a plan. So let me ask you, You know, Before we started recording, You said you live up in northern Illinois now. And so, First of all, I think St. Louis is beautiful in general, Like the arch and everything. And, You know, I'm not sure about the community that you came from in the South, But did St. Louis feel like a whole new world? Actually, I live in Iowa now, But in Iowa, OK, OK, But I was in Illinois for a while. It was different because St. Louis to me was I grew up in a small, Baton Rouge is the capital of Louisiana, But it's a very small community. And so it was it was very different to go from there to a city the size of St. Louis. It was like the entire state of Louisiana was St. Louis because it was so diverse. You had different neighborhoods. You had different it just expanded so far beyond just the city. I mean, Our downtown had one tall building in it. And so all of a sudden you go from there to St. Louis and it's like, Whoa, This is there's more traffic. There's there's like everything was on steroids. And and I had to learn to navigate my way around. I'd never driven really beyond Louisiana. So I had to drive from Louisiana all the way to St. Louis for the first time out. My cousin went with me because I had never driven that far before. So once we got to St. Louis, I had to go take it to the airport and fly back. But it was like everything was new. And I had to kind of adjust on a fly to all of a sudden living at home, Going to college and all of a sudden living alone in St. Louis, Didn't know anybody. And my very first experience in St. Louis at the seminary was hilarious because I talk about the fact that I grew up in a place where we we knew race was important and we knew that people there were didn't always like, You know, People of color, Black people. And so you just were smart when you were when you did things. You didn't get yourself in a situation that would be problematic. So I'm just I'm just got got unloaded at the seminary, Started to take a little walk around the campus to kind of soak it all in. And within two seconds of leaving my dorm, The police pull up to me and asked for my ID. And I'm like, Well, I'm a student here. And it's like, Do you have some idea? I'm like, No, I just literally got on campus. We haven't even started classes yet. And I'm like, I'm being harassed by the police my first few minutes in St. Louis. And so I'm like, If this is going to be my next four years, This will be miserable. So, Yeah, It was it was a different experience right away in St. Louis. I just think it's so interesting that you said it's hilarious and I am getting angry for you, Like I'm so angry. You know, We were talking about Nathan, Who's been on your podcast, And he told a story on my podcast about his guidance counselor in high school saying, You should just give up and just join the armed forces and because you're really not going to go anywhere and your grades are terrible and and you're just going to be a grunt, Like you're kind of not going to amount to anything. And I just was like, What? What did he say? And he said, No, That's what I needed to hear, You know, To light the fire under me to get me to go. And like that's how I became a lawyer and my community could step up for me. But your story makes me equally as incensed. I just have to say I just I just don't understand it. I don't understand it. But then I, You know, I was listening to you and hearing you talk about growing up in the South. And, You know, Certainly there are people in this world, You know, Of all colors, Of all races, When negative things happen to them, They carry that with them. It becomes a you could call it a monkey on their back or something laying on their heart, Whatever it is. It is heavy. It's heavy. They carry it. It might make them bitter. It might make them angry for the rest of their lives or what have you. And I was just struck by the fact that you said your parents knew that they were in this community, In this milieu, In this world where racism was very real, Very alive. But they did not let it bring them down. Would you agree with that? They did. And it helped me a lot because I have a similar story to Nathan's, Actually. He must have had the same same kind of people in our life. But it wasn't a guiding council. It was actually at the seminary. The funny the funny thing was, So my wife and I are interracially married. And there were two incidents that really stick in my mind. One was the spiritual life director of the seminary brought me into the office and he looked, He sat me down in the chair. He says, Do you realize your fiance is white? And I was I was shocked by the question and what was in my head. It didn't come out of my mouth was, No, I thought she was just scared to get married. And all the color went out of her. But I didn't say that. I just sat there and said, Yeah, I was aware of that. But as I got ready to graduate, I also they also told me that because of my marriage, My ministry was going to be limited to where I could go and how far I could go in the church. So be prepared for the fact I was going to be limited. And it was funny because I that also motivated me to go, No, I'm going to show you how far God can take it, Whether you see it or not. And 20 years later was what is funny to me was the seminary called me because I was in a position in the district office because I was actually now middle adjudicatory. So I was overseeing the mission exec for a bunch of churches in the Chicago, North and Northern Illinois area. But I was working with the call call list and they call me say, We have a pastor. Can you help them find a church? So I went from you don't think I can do anything to now you need my help to place a pastor that you're trying to get into his first call. And I was to me it was lost on them was the hilariousness of this guy because it was the same person who was calling me for help, Who said I wouldn't go very far. So I'm like, This is what this is what God shows you if you trust in him, That he can do amazing things, Even when it looks like the odds are stacked against you. Yes, But OK. I need to work on I mean, I just I'm so I'm like, Oh, I just can't believe the audacity. I just cannot believe the audacity of some people and how small minded, Narrow minded it just but, You know, Partially that's because I grew up overseas in Guyana, South America, And then in Lahore, Pakistan. And my childhood was spent in Lahore. And I played with kids from all over the world. So as a former guest said on my podcast, It hadn't struck me. I've had deep intimacy with every kind of human being on the planet. So that therefore has kind of helped me to understand that ultimately we're all the same. Be that as it may, I just get really triggered by these stories because, You know, I just get so angry. I mean, There is no need to ever say anything like what you've told me. You know, And one would hope that it was the same person calling you and asking you this question. And maybe it was a teachable moment. That's what I hope for everybody. You know, I mean, I think I'm naive. Well, The other funny thing is the person who said to me, Do you realize your fiance is white? When I wrote my first Bible study on healing race in America, His church called me and asked if I could lead a workshop at his church about race. And I'm like, This is this is so funny because, Again, It was 360 degrees. God used that moment and the work that I did because I didn't approach I didn't let that break me. I didn't let it shape who I was because a Bible study I wrote was actually a wrote during the Michael Brown situation in St. Louis. But at that time, The Bible study, The church body asked me if I would come alongside and help them to write something that they could they could on racism they could give to the church because my church body is like mostly 90 percent white and German. And so they didn't have a lot of a lot of experience of who who's going to write this. And when I wrote that, It was the Michael Brown was what kind of spurred the moment. But it didn't really take off until three years later when the George Floyd thing happened. All of a sudden, Everybody's sitting at home and churches are realizing that we do have an issue. How do we talk about race in a healthy Christian way? And all of a sudden, The Bible study I wrote years ago became very popular. So I was doing a lot of things, A lot of a lot of presentations, A lot of visiting congregations, A lot of talking about race. And that's where the podcast came out of. I wanted to find a way to keep the conversation about race going and help people see it from a different perspective. I wrote that realizing that I grew up in a in a deep South, But I went to an all whites elementary school in the South in the 70s. And I was the only black student most of the time. But they treated me with such respect like I was one of their own that I had to learn to speak. I would say speak their language during the day and I go home to my own community at night and have to kind of react reactivate myself to being in a black community. And so I joke that I was a cultural translator. So I would I would I would speak their language during the day and I would come home and live in a different culture at night. And so I wrote the Bible study from perspective of how do you how do I translate what I see in the race issue is that most of it's a misunderstanding. People just are not they're talking at each other, Not to each other. No one's listening. So I wanted to say, When you say this, This is what black people hear. When black people say this, This is what so and so hears. And so I wrote it with that perspective, With the whole idea being the entire race issue in our country isn't really about people. It's about a spiritual warfare. Racism is a spiritual issue, Not a human issue. Yeah, Yeah. I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, Oh, My goodness, You are the bridge. You're the bridge. I mean, And we we need those humans desperately who have experienced different, You know, Milieus context cultures so that they can create bridges between groups of people that might not want to understand or even think that they can understand this other subset of people, If that makes any sense. I just was thinking, I don't know if you've ever heard of Mali Domasomi. No. OK, He was he passed away a couple of years ago. He wrote an incredibly exquisite book called Of Water and the Spirit, And he was from Africa. And his story is just fascinating. But the thing that I thought was so apocryphal with him was in his village, You know, Right before he was born, All the women would go into the forest and they would start singing his birth song. And so they were all there in the woods singing and creating his song of who he was and who he was going to be. And that's how they came up with his name. And it was so prescient because ultimately the song in his name before he was born translated to Builder of Bridges. And that is what he became, Which was the bridge between his, You know, His country, You know, Let alone his kind of small, Remote village and the greater world, The world village. And that is and all the books he wrote. And I just think it's so interesting that even before he was born, They knew they knew this spirit was coming in to kind of shape and change attitudes around the world. And I also think that that is a big job. And I mean, How have you handled that becoming a bridge between different groups of people? Well, It got it gets exhausting sometimes because you're. I remember walking into a particular congregation and they wanted me to talk about race and also critical race theory and all of this kind of thing and just have a workshop. And one of the little old ladies came out to me after my first presentation and said, I was all prepared to hate you because I figured you're going to say things to me that I was going to make me mad. But you have such grace and such a calming spirit that I want to thank you for coming. In that same meeting, You know, One guy, As I was talking about trying to explain what critical race theory was, Got really upset with me and said, Well, He got really upset at the content, Not me particularly, Just the subject. And he says, I am not a racist. It's like I hire black people and I only ask them two questions. Are you a slave? And am I a slave owner? If they answer no to both of those, Then I can hire them. And I'm thinking to myself, I probably wouldn't start with those two questions. I don't think that's probably helping you not come across as a racist. But I say all that to say, It gets exhausting because people keep expecting you to solve the problem for them. And what I want people to understand is you have to stop looking at the other race as by the color of their skin, Because that is the that's the human way of judging people. The way God looks at it, God sees our heart. And if you see the person across from you as a child of God and you don't care what color they are because God doesn't see their color and it's in the Bible, Paul says that it's like God does not judge the outward appearance of a man. He judges the heart. So if we can look beyond the outer part of us, The outer ring, The very easy thing to judge or to look at and to be infatuated with and see this person across from me as a child of God. I try to do it on my podcast because I have a lot of guests on my podcast who I don't necessarily agree with, But we have conversation because I'm curious about learning their perspective, Hearing from them. And they're always shocked by the fact that even if you don't agree with me, You at least give me the voice and the opportunity to have a conversation. And to me, That's what Building Bridges is. Are we willing to listen to the other person's pain, Listen to their story and have the curiosity to want to know more about them? I had it because I had a guy on my podcast who is an openly gay Christian. And that's not a belief that I support in terms of being right. But we had to talk about it. He's like, It's a struggle because I do believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, But I can't convince the church that I'm not this way because I want to be. And so I'm like, I bet that's difficult. So we just had a conversation and I said, I don't agree with your lifestyle or your belief, But I love you as a child of God, A child that God created. And he thanked me for being open enough to have the conversation. Even though we didn't agree, We had a conversation. And I think it's important that we have those kind of conversations. Oh, Yeah. I mean, I, I, From the start of the day when I wake up, I need to practice actually more on myself as I'm creakily crawling out of bed and I'm like, Oh, My God, Why? I'm getting older. It's everything cracking in my body. I. I have realized that the voice is one of the most important and powerful tools that we have and can be anything from and I've said this on my podcast before, You can create worlds and destroy worlds with your voice and with a word. And so, You know, Complimenting someone's hair or telling them thank you that you see them, Because I think there are a lot of people in this country, But indeed the world that labor and I mean labor in every sense of the word labor, Completely unseen and unappreciated and. Saying thank you or acknowledging looking them in the eye and saying, I see you, Because I think you're also saying I witness God in you, I see your soul, We need more of that. Someone just said to me that they heard that the Dalai Lama was asked, Oh, What religion are you? And he said, I practice the religion of kindness. And I think that we can we can do that with each and every step of the way. But it's hard when I get angry hearing your stories. And then I'm just like, All right, Or Nathan's story. And I'm like, Where is that guidance counselor right now? Like, How many years was it? It's been like 30 years, Nathan. I don't care. Wait, 35 years. I don't care. Where is he? Where is he? I need to tell him something. I just have never liked bullies. And I just, You know, Every day we're asked to inhabit our best selves, But also make the world a more beautiful and just and equitable place for other people. I wanted to ask you, I just think I love your way of being. I want to just tell you that I really appreciate it. I appreciate that. My perception of you is that despite the fact that you grew up in the South and there was this, You were surrounded by racism, By people not being nice, Maybe being mean. Your spirit seems really generous and expansive. And how do you do that? Well, I love to say I really work really hard at it. But the reality is, Is that it's you have to realize that everybody has a story. Everybody has a background. None of us are perfect. And I'm sure that the people who have said things that were hurtful, I'm not sure how much of that they meant or even understood what that was that they were doing. So I give people the benefit of the doubt. I always joke with people. I will never think that you're racist unless you open your mouth and prove me wrong. So I will assume that you're not until you prove otherwise. And it helps me because I see the people there. I see the hurt. A lot of times it's what you grew up from. There are people whose grandparents said things, Taught them things because they didn't know any better. Yet today, I think we probably have to be more careful of our words. And it's helpful if we are. But I also realize that me being mean to someone only reinforces their opinion of me versus letting them see the way God uses me. And so I work really hard to let the love of Christ shine through me because that really does break down more barriers than me responding back with witty repartee, Which could be fun, Too. But that doesn't really advance us anywhere. I love that. There should be as much witty repartee as possible in the world. Yes, There should be. I'd love to ask you the second question, Although I feel like I might, You know, You've already kind of alluded a little bit to the answer, Which is, Did you grow up in a religious household? What did that look like growing up? You know, Did you go to church three times a week, Twice a week, Once a week? And then, You know, As you've gotten older and, You know, Obviously your studies in seminary, Has your connection or your relationship to that divine energy evolved or changed in any way? So I did grow up in a Christian household. My grandfather was a deacon in a church, A Baptist church. My mom was very, All of my family were in church. But for me, Actually, The Baptist church, When I grew up, Was a little bit unnerving because I was, I was a very quiet child. I was the only child until I was eight. And for me, The Baptist church was, Was kind of disturbing because they were always, There was so much energy, So much, So much, I guess you would say, We call it slain in the spirit down South. But there would be people who would, As a pastor was preaching and getting people all riled up with this preaching, They would pass out. And as a four-year-old, I'm going, This is horrifying because I'm like, I'm sitting there watching to find out which of these adults passes out. And, You know, Sometimes it's in front of you, They're being carried out. I'm like, I said, Mom, This is just too stressful. I can't keep doing this. Um, At four, But then I went to preschool and it was a Lutheran preschool. And the first day of preschool, We have chapel and I'm going, Oh, Great. Now I get to watch four-year-olds pass out. But because it was Lutheran and we don't have nearly the emotion that the Baptist church does, It was a very quiet service. I'm like, Oh mom, I want to become Lutheran. This is the church body for me because they're quiet. And here's none of that emotion. So yeah, That, That was kind of my upbringing. And at about seven, I got baptized at five or six or seven, And then converted my, My mom and cousins to become Lutheran from being Baptist. So I actually was the first Lutheran evangelist in my, In my family. My faith was always been very, Very important to me because people always ask me, You know, What do you want to be? What do you see your future going? And for me, It's like, I never know, Because I don't want to pretend that I know where God's leading me. And so I just like, Whenever God opens the door, I'll know if I'm supposed to go do that or not. And that's always been my way. And it's always been pretty, Pretty easy for me. There was, I guess I would say, A spiritual crisis in my life when my mother suddenly passed away. And it was about six years ago and unexpected, Got a phone call that my mom died alone in her home. And we knew that she was, She needed to, She needed to go in, But she just refused to get help. And, And it was very hard. And I remember being very angry with God going, Why did you let her die alone? And, And for like several months, I just was really upset with him. And we'd never been in that spot before, Say God and I, And I remember driving down the highway in Chicago and the song by, Um, Um, Stephen Crowder came on, Um, And it was, Um, How he loves you, How he loves you. And it's like, And I, And I'm sitting there going, And, And part of the song goes love like a hurricane washes over me. And I remember, And I'm sitting there going, You never stopped loving me. And it's like, And that, That, That grace was like, Just poured over me. And it's like, I'm sitting in the car boo-hooing and I'm about to look really ridiculous driving down interstate 90, Um, In tears and in the car by myself. But it was like, God just like, I mean, He just took my heart and just ripped it open and said, Stop. And he said, I never left her. She never died alone. And it was, It was hard, But I needed to have that moment. And then I was a much better preacher because I was like, I mean, I understood grief until you have to deal with grief yourself in a very personal way, But then you can, You can, You can, You preach differently when you understand the person on the pew, What their heart's feeling like and how their heart's ripped open as they lose loved ones. Um, So it totally transforms how you, You bring God's word to people. Yeah. I was, What I love about your story and appreciate is that even as a kid, A four year old, You knew what you liked. Right. I mean, Very few four-year-olds know what they like. And it's just astonishing to me that you said, Oh, I'm this, I, This is not working for me. Um, I need to find somewhere else. And then it's just the most hilarious, Charming story that you're expecting the four-year-olds in your Lutheran class to fall over as well. I mean, I just, I'm just like captivated by that story. Um, Because it's just so wonderful. I did actually, I moved home in October, 2023 to take care of my mom, Help her for about six months, Um, In Batavia and a friend went to this Baptist church in Elgin, Illinois. And she said, You know, I had graduated from seminary by that point. And she said, But I've always loved going to other faith traditions. It is just feeds me. And I love meeting people. I love meeting the stranger, Getting to delight in another human being. And so she said, Come to the Baptist church. And I said, Oh my gosh. Okay. And she said, You're going to need about four hours. And I thought, What, What? Okay. Um, And I show up and it is the most joyful, Vivacious singing, Everybody hugging, Talking, Celebrating, You know, And then of course there's the preacher and the sermon and all of that, But it was just, It was like a, Like a community revival or a, I I'd never been around. I've never been hugged by so many people at a church service in my life. And I thought, Oh my God, I love this. I love this. Cause I'd never experienced anything like it. But then, You know, It was like, Had been four hours and they were still going. And I was like, I actually have to go. Um, I mean, I, I do, I have like another appointment, But thank you. I'm so grateful. And, Um, Afterwards I wrote the pastor and just said, Thank you so much for allowing me to visit and spend some time with you all, Because, You know, I'd never experienced anything like that. When I grew up in Pakistan, You know, I I've told people that my memory as a child is, I was awoken every morning by the call to prayer at dawn. And so that was just cause it was sung out over the city. And for me, You know, You're a kid and you're like, This is normal. You know, This is like just what happens now. Then I came back to the States and like, No, You're not, No, Nobody sings at dawn in the U S um, Or very few people sing at dawn, Let's just put it that way. But you certainly can't hear them. Um, But I've always been, I don't know, Captivated by other faith traditions and how they choose to connect with an ineffable presence. And I think it's, It's really exciting. Can I ask you, When you first started preaching, Was it, Was it scary? Oh, It was terrifying. Um, It's funny because when I was younger, I was very good at public speaking. And so everybody assumed I was going to be a pastor because I was really good at public speaking. I would be the kid that was in all the, All the programs and read all the things, Read the narrative at Christmas. Somewhere along the way, Though, I started speeding up in my speech. I got really nervous with public speaking and I lost that ability. And so when I got finally graduated from the seminary, My first sermon, My first year or so, My sermons were seven minutes long because they taught us at seminary to memorize the texts. And so I thought I had to memorize the texts. And so I would work at that, But I was so nervous that I forget something that I wanted to rush through before I forgot. So I didn't breathe. So it was like seven minutes of me, Like maybe taking one breath and just going through. And one day a little old lady in the front said to me, She's like, You know, Preacher, Um, I think you have some good stuff to say, But I gotta tell you, I'm literally exhausted listening to you preach. And so I realized that I needed to find a different way to, To get better at this. Cause if I'm going to be doing this every Sunday, I can't. And I was, I was holding onto the pulpit. My hands were like, If you could like, If it wasn't for the fact it was wood, If it had been clay or stuff, You see my hand prints, Like basically grabbing the pulpit, But I started listening to some of the best preachers out there and figuring out and dissecting what do they do well. And so I studied it and listen to people like, Um, Tony Evans, Listen to people like Bill Hybel. And I said, Here's the, Here's the, The foundation of what makes good preaching. And I modeled that and I practiced that. And then I came back one Sunday and I delivered it. I calmed down. I was able to breathe and the same lady came to me and said to me, Honey, You preached like your mama was in the crowd today, Which I knew at that point that I'd actually hit a home run because that meant that I, I did it right. And so I like, Okay, Finally figured it out. That is quite the compliment. It is. Yes. I have to say that, You know, I, One of my learning curves for my internship for seminary was to get better, Like less freaked out, I guess you'd say for public speaking. Um, And my listeners already know this. You know, I, I gave a sermon at the Unitarian church around Thanksgiving and I was talking so fast and, You know, They all, A bunch of them came up after and said, You know, Can we offer constructive criticism? And I said, Absolutely. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. And, You know, A couple of them said, If you could just slow down a little bit and I was like, I just want to get off. Are you kidding? No, I was trying to get off the stage. I mean, Well, While I'm having arrhythmia, Okay. And my heart, Because I'm just like freaking out. Um, But I have to be honest, You know, It sounds like you were, You know, Initially a really adept speaker. And then you had these kind of like maybe tiny hurdles to overcome around, You know, Maybe speaking too quickly, But don't you find that having your own podcast also is such an aid? It is because I don't preach as much as I used to, But I also discovered that I actually love preaching and I was very good at it. But I also know that as somebody once told me, The thing that you're most gifted at, A thing you'll struggle with the most. And so for me, Every, Every week I have to figure out how do I calm my nerves? How do I humble myself before I get in the pulpit? Because I don't want to be arrogant because that's the way it never works out well. And how do I, What do I need to do to make sure that when I preach other places that I feel like the people in the audience are my allies, They're friends. So I show up early at church and I go around and I meet people and talk to people before service. So I have friends in the audience before the sermon starts. And that's how I find a way to connect with, And I may even share some of the stories, Like I'll know that so-and-so in the audience are farmers. So I'll add a farm analogy to the sermon because, You know, A bunch of farmers here, Or they're a bunch of plumbers here. So whatever, Whatever you need to do to kind of make yourself feel comfortable is how I've learned to step into that space. Because once I get in the pulpit, I'm fine once I can calm down. But it's getting up into the pulpit that's always the struggle. The night before I'm a miserable person to be around, My family doesn't like me on a Saturday night. Sorry, I'm fading a little bit. I did not actually think about the sun actually going down today. So I'm getting a little darker here and starting to, Like, Disappear into the distance. You know, One thing I do want to make very clear is going back to our conversation about, You know, Exhaustion and you giving talks, Educational talks, Compassionate talks about racism and how it shows up everywhere and people are so unconscious about it. I think a lot of people are very unconscious just in general, But racism is like a whole other separate, Special kind of unconsciousness. I want to just make it really clear that it's, You know, In general, It is not any person of color's job to educate white people. White people should be doing their own work. And, You know, While I talked about intimacy, Because I grew up overseas in an Islamic country with kids from all over the world, I fully know that I'm racist and I acknowledge that. And I know I have a lot of work to do. It's it's it's weirdly and, You know, I've been unpacking it a bit. And understanding that a lot of it was after I came back to the States and I went to Batavia, Which was all white, So white, I'd never seen anything like it in my entire life. And I told one of my counselors in seminary, I said that was the first time my heart was broken because I came back to the States. Everyone was white. It was weird. You know, All of a sudden it mattered what you were wearing to school, What you brought in your lunchbox. You know, There were all these weird clicks. I just didn't understand anything about the culture was so bizarre to me. But you know what? As a kid, You learn to adapt and you learn to fit in as soon as possible so that you can survive. And, You know, I took on the stories from the greater surrounding kind of culture, I guess you could say, The parents and the kids. So I just want to make it very clear, Like around racism, Racism, We should all be doing our own work. We should all be reading the books we need to read. We should we should. I'm a big fan of encounter. And so I think that means you go out and you meet people like who knows, Who knows where you're going to meet someone or what kind of meet and greet you're going to have or encounter. But that is another opportunity for God to show up and in another person, But also in the encounter. So I just I think everybody should be reading books right now, Having encounters and meeting people and just celebrating them no matter what they look like, Because quite honestly, I think most people are incredibly splendid human beings. And I'm sure you would agree, But I wanted I just didn't want you to think I was going to gloss it over from earlier. No, It's funny that you mentioned Batavia because I used to preach there a lot. What? Yeah, At Emmanuel. I worked with them a lot during their process when they were vacant. And so I know Batavia really well. I know St. Charles really well. Yeah, No, It's an area and I think the other thing about that is it's not just white people that have to work on their attitudes about race, Because my congregation in Milwaukee had a real issue with race, But it was mostly from the black members who thought they couldn't be racist. And so they treated the white teachers in our congregation horribly. And that's where I learned that it's not a color. It's not about who has perceived power or not. It's about what's in your heart. And so I wanted them to understand that we have to treat each other with respect on both sides and we have to see each other as valuable children of God. And so it was hard because when people think they can't be racist, They think they're immune to the meanness that other people that they've themselves experienced and that people deserve it because I don't and they will use excuse why I don't have any power. Like, No, You do have power. You have power. And you mentioned before with that tongue of yours to do great damage, Do great damage and great harm. So we have to be responsible for our tongue because that tongue can be a wonderful tool of encouragement or it could be a double edged sword and it can cut to the heart. And so no matter what what race you are, Be careful with the tongue and how you use it. Thank you. Thank you. That's thank you. All I keep thinking about is that, You know, I have Scorpio in my astrological chart. And sometimes when I was much younger, That little scorpion tail came out through my tongue. It was not a good thing. It was not good. But I learned my lesson. I learned my lesson. Well, I'd love to ask you the main question of the podcast, Which is I would so appreciate if you would tell a story, Share a story of something, You know, Either you witnessed in your life or something that you experienced that you consider to be magical, Miraculous or mysterious. Oh, Sure. It was my first year in the ministry. And I walked into a congregation that had had a lot of a lot of unusual grief right away. My secretary had just had her first grandchild. And we arrived the day that they were having a funeral. The child had a stillborn SIDS situation. And we walked in with this new six-month-old and crying in the background. I'm like, Oh, I felt terrible because she just lost her grandbaby. But that was a miraculous story. Miraculous story was there was a 25-year-old young lady who was in the hospital. And they didn't know what was going on. She was not responding well. The family asked me to come to the hospital and pray with her because they were going to pull the plug. And so I'm going, I don't know what to say. We don't we didn't have a class on bedside, You know, Funeral prayers, Especially because Lutherans don't have it. We don't have like the last rites. That's a Catholic thing. So, You know, There's no prayer that I knew that was going to make this work. But I went and as I was praying with the family, They were taking the tubes out of her and cutting her off all the medication. And we were thinking that she was going to die. But after the prayer, We realized that it was she was having a negative reaction to the medication that she was on. So literally taking her off of those those things saved her life. And then six months later, This girl was walking down the aisle at a wedding I was officiating. So we went from expecting a 25-year-old to lose her life to me coming and asking me, Pastor, Should we pull the plug on that? And I'm trying to advise the family as best I can. I'm like, You have to do what your heart tells you to do. And so they did. And she survived. And she walked down the aisle six months later at her cousin's funeral, I mean, Wedding. And it was a miraculous thing. It's one of those things like, Wow, This is this was a truly God moment. Well, Yeah, And I, I mean, Just it's a another beautiful example of the community coming together, And people coming together to support, You know, Not only her in the hospital, On death's door, But also the family, And everyone else who loved and cared about her. And I think we're strongest in community. We're the most blessed when we're in community, When we can show up for each other wholeheartedly. Because that is a whole lot of miraculous energy, I think, We can show up wholeheartedly with each other. That's the kind of stuff that can heal, I think. Yeah. So that story is, I mean, Also, I think to myself, The medical system. I just sigh. And then I think, Thank goodness. I mean, For everyone who came and prayed and was present. But then thank goodness that she was given another opportunity to live. Yeah, Yes. That's just amazing. And then you get to be a witness. Yeah, It was like, Wow, God is like, My ministry started out just right. It's like, All right, God does amazing things. And that's it. That's a wrap on my conversation with Reverend Dr. Haney. Thank you for listening. And here's my one request. Be like Reverend Dr. Haney, Who is changing the conversation about racism. And also urging us all to step back and observe where we might have unconscious biases and unconscious ways of being that are racist. It is a challenging conversation. It's a heartbreaking recognition. But he's urging us all, Including me, To understand where we contribute to furthering the racist narrative and also a racist way of being. So yeah, That's my takeaway. Have the courage and conviction to understand where you are blind. Have the courage and conviction to become a better person. And then have the courage and conviction to walk out into the world. And yeah, Live that life honestly, Openly, And bravely. And help to heal the world. All right. See you next time for the very next podcast. And until then, I hope your life is filled with laughter, With joy, And enjoying this glorious spring as nature wakes up and gets ready for summer.