Michelle talks about dreams in this episode, and how at different points in her life she's caught glimpses of the future - where something she dreamt of has come true. Is this magic? Is it, in fact, a miracle? Or is it part of our heritage and simply a gift we should claim? Listen in now!
Meet your Teacher
Santa Fe, NM, USA
Transcript
Hi, Everybody, And welcome back to the podcast. This time, I'm introducing you to Michelle Lerner, Who has had many lives, Including a 20-year career as a public interest lawyer. But now you ask? Well, Her critically acclaimed novel, Ring, Has been released, And it's a powerful and lyrical exploration of complicated grief, Resilience, And the healing power of the human-animal bond. Shared a copy of her novel with me and I could not put it down once I stopped reading. We talk about her novel in this conversation. We talk about her long battle with illness and how challenging that has made life. And then, Of course, She shares some miracle, Magical moments near the end. So let's get to it. Here's my conversation with the creative Michelle Lerner. The very first time it happened, I had gone to a conference. I was in college with a bunch of other women. I was wearing a crystal for the first time. I didn't know if that had anything to do with it, But I was sleeping on the floor in the hotel. And I had two disabled horses at home, And my mom was taking care of them while I was away. And I had these two very vivid dreams, Like very real. It. My horse, Pepsi, Had thrown a shoe. And the other was that my best friend who was there with me, That her grandfather had died. I mean the first thing that comes to mind is that I've had periods in my life, The first time was in college, I've had periods of my life where I have these very realistic dreams that then happen. But what I actually want to talk about is something that's less. I guess, Typically magical seeming than that. But I think connected to the book, To Ring, I went when I was, I guess I had just graduated from law school. I went to Alaska with a friend of mine who was going there for a conference and had frequent flyer miles and took me. It was not a time when people normally go to visit Alaska. It was late October or something and it was really snowy and cold and getting dark early. And we spent, We. . . We went out with a guide ice climbing and then the two of us went hiking sort of like a full day of hiking up on a I mean, It wasn't a mountain like you'd go mountain climbing, But it was just, You know, Steep walking and we were up fairly high and there was nobody else around and it was everything was snow covered. And I just had this really. Amazing, Strong feeling being on this mountain in Alaska. You know, Maybe what I was talking about of just sort of being connect really in connection with whatever force there is in the universe but it also It also, Even though I am not somebody who enjoys winter at all, Like it's really cold right now in New Jersey and there's a lot of snow. But ever since that experience, I've had a part of me that is just really drawn to much more northern latitudes and really wanting to explore like very far north. And I think that's also part of why I sat down the novel ring where I did and part of the the draw I think I myself feel like if I was trying to go to a place where I was really trying to come to terms with the question of life and death and with myself and the universe and that I'm drawn to doing that in a sort of isolated northern environment. And it comes from the feeling I had on that mountain that's very difficult to really articulate. It is, It's practically impossible. It's like. . . I don't know, It is literally impossible. I think, Oh my gosh, There's a special word for it. Is it pneumos? It's a moment in your life where It's almost like you get a glimpse behind the veil where there's deep connection and you recognize something, There's recognition. Incredibly potent, Incredibly beautiful, And kind of your life has changed forever. Noetic. I think it's noetic. Have you heard that term? Yeah, That term. I'm somebody who really believes in meditation and intends to meditate all the time and hardly ever does. I have trouble getting myself to do it. But in November, I went to a four-day meditation retreat. And I kept falling asleep the whole time. I mean, The whole thing was really difficult, But it was sitting and walking meditation. And out of the four days, I mean, We meditated maybe five or six hours a day. There was a period, I don't know how long it was because that's what happens when you get into this state, But I think it was probably just a few seconds in one of the walking meditations. Where I felt, I think, What people want to feel in meditation, Like where I was not in my thinking mind and I was just actually really existing in the space and experiencing it in like this, Like you said, Sort of going behind the veil. And it was so brief out of, You know, Five, Six hours a day for four days. But it felt like it was worth the whole four days, Like having those few seconds. Yeah. Yeah. There it's, It's people have asked me cause I've had an experience. I actually had a dream. My noetic experience was a dream. So when you brought up dreams, I thought to myself, I know what she's talking about. But yeah, There are experiences that are pretty much impossible to explain to other people so that they can actually understand what you're trying to say, Because it's an experience that's outside of anything that we've actually truly experienced. I mean, The sense of connection is so vast and so deep and so beautiful. I was just talking about this a couple of weeks ago. A friend was talking about, She's Hindu. But she's been. And she was not very religious and recently she's been praying and feeling like she's sort of praying to a single. But she's not really sure what it is. And, Like, It was sort of torturing her that she couldn't really quite figure out what it was she thought she was praying to, Or. . . And I. . . I think of this, There's a, I like the musician a lot, Annie DeFranco. I don't know if you know her, But. Yeah. But there's a line in one of her songs that says, Why do you try to hold on to what you'll never get a hold on? You wouldn't try to put the ocean in a paper cup. And I feel like our brains are sort of the paper cup and, You know, When we're trying to understand sort of this force or the idea of God or any of these things and talk about it that we're like literally trying to put an ocean in a paper cup and there's no. . . It doesn't matter how you try to explain it. There's just no way to do that. And I'm kind of okay with that. I'm okay with just experiencing it without understanding it in an intellectual way. Okay, So let me ask you because about this dream piece, Because I had a dream when I was gosh, 13 or 14. And, You know, Yes, I'd grown up overseas, But didn't have a lot of experience with boys. They weren't really on my mind. I didn't really think about them all that much. But I had this dream one night that I was out on a lake somewhere on a houseboat. And there were these three cute guys, So cute. And I remember waking up the next morning and thinking to myself, Well, That was weird. I mean, It just, I wrote about it in my journal because it was such, The dream was so vivid. There was so much clarity. And I remember thinking, I'm never going to meet boys that are as cute as that ever. And then a year later, We were out in California. I've forgotten the dream by now. And we're visiting friends who own a houseboat on a lake. And one of their daughters brought her friends, These three boys. And I remember the moment I was sitting at a table, The dining room table, And I looked across and I thought to myself, Oh my God, This is my dream. I dreamt this a year ago. And I thought to myself, How is this possible? My intellectual side, You know, That hamster started running as fast as a good. Um I mean, How did you reconcile those experiences that you had? Like the dreams? Yes. Yeah. I mean, They were much more. So they were much less, I think, The things that I dreamt happened almost immediately after, Or they had been happening, And I dreamt about it and I shouldn't have been aware of it. I mean, Things like, The very first time it happened, I had gone mad. To a conference. I was in college with a bunch of other women. I was wearing a crystal for the first time. I didn't know if that had anything to do with it, But I was sleeping on the floor in the hotel. I had two disabled horses at home, And my mom was taking care of them while I was away. I had these two very vivid dreams, Very real. One of them was that My horse Pepsi had thrown a shoe and the other was that my best friend who was there with me that her grandfather had died and This was a time of pay phones and like the next day I called my mom to check and see how things were and she said everything's okay, But I just want to tell you Pepsi threw a shoe and I need to call the blacksmith and I was like okay and I got off the phone and I turned around and I had told my friend about my dreams and I told her and she immediately got on the phone and called her family and her grandfather had just been put on morphine you know and he died like I think later that day or the next day and things like that like it they happened for a while and then it stopped for years and then I had another bout of things like that happening and I guess to me it felt less like I was. I would have more trouble reconciling something that happened far in the future that felt like it was something predictive. I guess I rationalized it or felt more like if there is this sort of connecting force around, You know, That connects everything. And I think What's the term? There's a type of physics that talks about this now. I guess I felt more like I was just sort of tapping into that and sensing things that were happening outside of me rather than inside. Predicting something that happened in the future, If that makes sense, That it's more than like, I guess when I have those dreams, It feels more like. . . Another kind of tapping into that universal force that I don't understand. And that's it. That's a wrap on my conversation with Michelle. I hope you not only enjoyed meeting her, But the conversation that we had together. There's no doubt in my mind that she's creating great beauty and bringing her whole authentic self to the world in the form of poetry, In the form of the work she's done as a lawyer, And just how she moves in the world. We need more people like her. I want to thank each and every one of you for listening to the podcast. Please do consider writing a review or leaving a rating wherever you find the podcast. I'd be ever so grateful if you'd take the time to do that. Thank you for listening, And here's my one request. Be like Michelle. Keep going. Life is not easy and events that we cannot anticipate are going to be happening. All the time. And Michelle has not given up. She's just kept going, Knowing that there is more beauty out there for her, Knowing that she can create beauty for others, And knowing that she can use her voice in a way that is going to create meaning and goodness for others. So when you suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Do not give up. Be like Michelle. Put one foot in front of the other, And just dance. Keep going.
