Conversations: Rei Hance, Author Of The Oracle Of Emergence

A trip through consciousness, relationship & medicine. This episode Rei and I go deep into the real life experience of choosing not to live on the surface, the ecology of erotic emergence and metabolisation for true nourishment. What does this mean?! Everything is medicine. Our trauma and wounding can be metabolised through our bodies and enter the world as nourishment for others. This is a lighthearted and vastly deep conversation between two Teachers of Consciousness that deserves digestion.

Transcript

Great,

We're on record.

Welcome,

Everyone.

Welcome people who are watching on Facebook or Instagram and welcome to my podcast listeners.

It's Jemima,

The Connection Coach.

And I'm here today with Ray Hans,

Author of Oracle of Emergence.

And I am so excited to talk to her because we've been connected on social media for a while.

And we have some very similar threads running in terms of our interest in consciousness and becoming and relationships.

And I'm not going to label this conversation with anything else other than that,

Because I want to see what emerges.

So welcome,

Ray.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so happy to finally connect with you,

At least on Zoom,

If not fully in person.

Yeah,

In real life.

Amazing.

So I really want to just give you opportunity to introduce yourself and what is it that you would like people to know about you,

Bearing in mind,

You know,

Random people who are listening?

Oh,

God,

What do I like people to know about me that like,

Basically,

I teach metabolization.

And that my practice is fundamentally one of metabolization,

Not of avoiding anything or turning away from anything,

But devouring and being devoured.

To me,

To me,

When I took the Bodhisattva vows,

What struck me is that the Bodhisattva yearns to be devoured,

To use this life like a like a rag,

To leave this life completely used up and to be so utterly devoted and open to risk that there's nothing left at the end.

And nothing left really at the end of every iteration of who I've been in this life so far.

Using up every every opportunity in each phase and open opening completely to that molting and opening completely to that new phase.

And so that's basically what I hold people in.

Not not love and light,

Ascent and descent and equal measure.

And basically learning how to preserve that sense of witness.

Yeah,

Preserve that.

And I and I think I come from a Zen tradition to a Zen lineage.

So I think of that as grandmother's heart,

Raibhoshan and like having witnessing with tenderness,

Not just distance and being able to take all my fears,

All my trauma,

All of the old stories and put them on my knee instead of turning away from them.

Beautiful.

I love that.

It's such a such a rich description there of of what you help steward people through and what you've obviously stewarded yourself through and continue to do so.

And continue to do so.

Yeah,

That's the point,

Right?

So just before we just before I hit record,

You were talking a bit about the dragonfly going through many metamorphosis in its life.

And I thought that was a really good analogy.

Because we are we are ever becoming aren't we?

We're kind of we're growing and we're dying all at the same time.

And I,

I guess my my biggest question is,

If you are in support of people going through this process at the highest and the deepest levels,

I know from my own experience,

I know it can be really frightening.

So So what is your what's your preferred kind of way of staying in that and being in that with them,

So that the fear doesn't overwhelm and disrupt the process?

Permeability and humor?

Hmm,

Okay.

Okay,

Humor.

Yeah,

I'm all for that.

Permeability,

Like a pervasive sense of permeability.

Remember,

Remembering that skin and reality are both permeable membranes.

Okay,

Everything is being passed through your system,

Everything is being metabolized all the time,

As long as you don't turn away.

Okay.

So keeping people grounded and both grounded and spacious,

Like decent decentering the egos preferences so that you can be completely present.

Yeah,

Without grabbing at anything,

Just being able to return to that home space,

Be in that skin,

Breathe in the lap of the world.

Yeah.

So good,

Then things that then things are able to be taken in,

Even when they taste bitter,

They taste like poison.

Gradually,

By titration,

You learn to metabolize a little bit more and a little bit more and you learn that everything is medicine.

But until you really trust that,

Until you trust that everything is medicine,

Like I had poison ivy this summer and thinking about like,

Well,

That's quite arrogant to call that plant poison ivy,

Because it's really only my reaction.

It's not its identity.

It's just my reaction to it,

Right?

So like,

Who am I to take to claim that whole being in terms of my reactivity?

Yeah,

Guiding clients through that as well.

Like,

What is what is really happening here?

And what is your reaction based on your particular set of causes and conditions in this moment,

And your own causes and conditions of the past and causes and conditions that you prefer for the future?

Yeah,

So it's a framing question.

Always,

Almost always,

I don't have the answers for anyone.

I rarely have them for myself.

My whole objective is to return people to a certain amount of ease and not knowing.

Because from that everything emerges.

And that was what my whole I Ching project was about to be able to have the I Ching presented in such a way where it's,

It's accessible.

And it feels fresh and present.

Because it is and it's so often like layered and like,

All these calcified layers of patriarchal Confucianism,

And I wanted to kind of unearth it and restore the feminine to it.

Yeah,

I'm really looking forward to reading that.

It's fun to work with.

Yeah,

Yeah,

To having it as a as a reference.

Yeah,

It's like a choose your own adventure book.

Like I wrote this morning,

Like what what is my correct path for today?

Can I just like,

Frame this day with a?

Can I frame this day with like a,

An energetic snapshot of what is real in this moment,

Knowing that it can go in any different direction?

Yeah,

Yeah,

I love that.

And this is something that I,

I speak to my clients about as well that any tool that you want to utilise,

Whether it's your tarot,

Whether it's your crystals,

Where,

You know,

Whatever it might be,

It is not imbued with a special magic,

Because it is that thing.

It's you,

It's you.

And that I,

I can tell people who get it,

You know,

Which is why I've wanted to connect with you for ages.

It's like some people get it,

Some people don't get it.

So yeah,

It's,

It's,

It's certainly a concept that can feel hard to grasp the truth of,

You know,

You just spoke about trust,

You just spoke about trust in the process.

And that can kind of trip off the tongue.

But when you're going through it,

When you're really going through those deaths and rebirths,

And you're deep down in the sludge,

It can be really hard to trust yourself.

And it can be really hard to trust the process.

And I think people are maybe pre-designed to kind of,

To give their power away in many,

In many regards,

You know.

Let's say for the same reason you want to throw a hot potato,

Like it's too hot to hold.

I don't want to burn my hands on this dress.

This is like,

This cauldron is heating up and I am uncomfortable,

You know.

But then what is,

What is the word confidence?

Like,

Can you go through these transformations with confidence,

Which means with fidelity,

With fidelity to all that is.

Not this old story,

Not who I was,

Not even an idea of who I'm becoming,

But with,

With fidelity and full trust in all that is at this moment.

Because that will move me.

Yeah.

It might not be in the way,

It might not be according to my plan,

But it will move me.

Yeah.

And the more I don't fight that,

The happier I've been every single time.

Yeah.

So it's like,

God,

Can I just like fucking surrender again?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's such a beautiful description because it completely changes the visual for me of what you spoke about at the beginning about permeability.

And it's,

It's very fluid.

It's not having a trust in me because I am this solid shape and I do this when this happens.

It's the trust that it's,

Everything is moving exactly as it ought to be moving and everything is working perfectly.

Yeah.

So yeah,

Totally.

I'm like,

You can't exactly,

You can't get it wrong and,

And,

And kind of labeling these transitions as hard,

Like grieving is hard.

Loss is hard.

To me,

That's part of the problem,

The way we language that,

Because if we allow those things to actually be very,

Very,

Very soft.

Yeah.

We have a totally different experience of them.

It's not that they're less challenging or less dark or less sad or less engulfing.

But if we allow ourselves to float in that soft and the softness of it,

Of the vastness of it,

The soft fastness,

Then it's not as hard.

It's like when we don't,

We don't,

Grieving is inconvenient right now.

So then it,

Then it becomes hard.

Yeah.

Then I'm now I'm like clenched against it.

I need a new car battery.

I can't cry in aisle four of O'Reilly's because this is inappropriate.

Like I don't give a single fuck about any of that anymore.

It's like,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

This is the wave I'm surfing right now.

Sorry.

Here's my make and model.

Good luck.

I'll see you in an hour.

I'm with you on that.

I'm with you on that.

And I certainly feel well for me anyway,

It's definitely come with age.

I've have developed that sense of self enough to go,

This is what's happening now.

This is who's in front of you right now.

Right.

You know,

There will be no alterations.

Right.

And I think the other thing that comes with age is like,

I love being middle aged.

Like I was like born to be middle aged.

I think it's the best.

Like the,

The death of perfectionism.

Yeah.

Like this pursuit of like,

I must be perfect.

And the awkwardness and the jaggedness that comes from like,

How's my thigh gap?

What do I,

You know,

Like,

How am I presenting?

Like,

I just don't give a fuck anymore.

And it's,

And that has brought like,

Like a restoration of my yin,

Like weirdly,

Like coming into perimenopause at the same time that you're getting a restoration of the yin.

So it's like this weird,

Wonderful swirly time of like,

Real freedom,

Like real abiding freedom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And self compassion.

Jesus self compassion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

That's huge.

That's huge.

I would love to talk to you a bit about relationships as well,

Because that's my bag.

That's what I love talking about.

And I,

I guess I find it quite tricky to put into words.

The visualisations that I get when I'm kind of interpreting information,

But I guess my feeling is everything that you've spoken about,

About metabolisation and,

And this more fluid way of being.

How does that then translate into,

Say,

A love relationship?

Okay,

Interesting,

Right?

Because just because the way that we are brought up to understand them,

Then they are,

They're quite defined in their,

In their shape and form.

And then when,

When you reach a particular stage where you're very connected with your consciousness and with your being,

You realise that form,

All forms change over time.

Okay.

Yeah.

So don't get hooked.

A friend of mine once,

Once quoted it,

Like,

How do you define what is good for you?

Or do you do you treat it in the same way as you treat your own being?

It's big,

Isn't it?

This is not only very big,

But super timely for me right now.

Like I'm definitely digging deep into exactly this,

You know?

I'm very much,

Very much with the essence of,

Of how we're speaking about this.

You know,

I'm not looking for a definite answer.

I'm just looking for your.

.

.

I couldn't possibly give you one.

It is a series of emergencies and coming together and coming apart and,

And being.

.

.

Do you know,

You know what a lichen is?

Yeah.

Like where it's like an algae and a,

And fungi,

It's algae and fungi actually coming together.

So because the algae can feed on light and the fungus can burrow and connect and neither of them can do those things on their own.

And so they come together and form a lichen,

Neither one loses their essential nature.

So they're like,

Not one,

Not two.

And to me,

Like this is true romance where there is no self abandonment,

But there is this third emergent state of being that comes out of the relationship that does what neither can do alone.

Yeah.

And like,

That's kind of my relationship ideal.

I absolutely adore that you brought this up.

I have never heard anybody else speak about this other than a previous partner who's no longer on this plane.

We are the only people who,

Who had this understanding of this,

Like the third entity of relationship.

And it,

It feels very,

Very important to me.

It's also quite,

It's also quite dangerous because the people pleasing is taken out of it.

And unless you show up in full integrity,

Authentically,

Absolutely as you are,

Even when it's uncomfortable,

You lose the specificity and the,

And the,

And the deep gifts of each of those elements.

If I,

If I self abandon,

We no longer become a lichen,

Like we become like some goo or a puddle or forest floor detritus,

Not a new being.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

So the deal is no one can self abandon.

And that is really hard.

Like I'm going to point in my role where we've been together for nine months.

And so we are in that place of like going deeper,

Going deeper,

Go deeper,

Go home.

And like it,

There are moments when it's super fucking uncomfortable and moments when I think like,

If I keep showing up in this way,

I might lose him and coming back to like,

Okay,

I owe it to myself to show up absolutely as I am.

So I know what belongs with me and what does not.

Yes.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

And that is trust.

That's confidence.

That's confidary.

That's with faith in all that is not my preferences,

But all that actually is.

And it's fucking scary.

Yeah.

It's fucking scary.

And it,

And it's painful.

And it,

And then I have to check in with myself of like,

When am I showing up as I am now?

And when am I showing up from old wounding?

When am I showing up with an old story?

Am I showing up authentically?

Can I check?

Am I able to keep that witness that grandmother's heart witness alive and alert enough to know when I'm simply playing out an old pattern versus when I'm having a genuine immediate experience with this person?

Like what,

What needs to be released the person or the pattern until you release the pattern,

You won't know,

And you will drive the fucking person crazy.

So I have to be super careful with that because I do have a lot of trauma and I do have a lot of things that I have had to work through and excavate.

And like the residue of them is integrated into who I am.

It's part of what drives me.

So I I'm not looking to heal,

Heal it like,

Yeah,

Because it doesn't go away.

It knits in,

It gets crocheted into the whole web,

You know?

I hear you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And,

And what this points to,

To me is,

Or my,

At least my interpretation of it is this self mastery that has to be ever present.

And it's,

It's such a fine line between always being in this observer position and kind of unpicking and unpacking and being free and flowing and just taking stuff as it comes and being natural.

But it like it has to be balanced.

It has to be balanced.

You cannot,

You cannot leave the self mastery to just like go have a good time for a weekend or whatever.

It's months.

It's it has to be in some,

In some guise,

I think it has to be present.

I trust my grandmother to lurk.

I can go have a good time for the weekend.

And if something comes up and,

And if I get taken out,

If I get knocked off,

She will pop in to be like that.

Yeah.

Did you see that?

Did you see that?

Yeah.

But that's yeah.

Perfectly explained.

But I think like what you're saying is like this,

What I'm hearing is like this line of like this love of investigation versus driving another person crazy with like your investigation of the minutia of every nuance of relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No one needs that.

No one needs that.

And that is definitely like a trap that I can fall into.

And then how that manifests as control.

Like my self mastery is like,

Kind of like my business.

Yeah.

I don't need to be like bringing that sense of control to anyone else.

Like love people as they are,

You know?

Yeah.

Completely,

Completely.

So how,

What are your,

What are your preferred ways of staying in this deepest connection with yourself?

Because I know it at this level,

It can be sometimes difficult to identify because you've been doing it for so long and it's so automatic now.

But I think it can be really useful for people who are at different stages on the path of like,

Okay,

Well,

Well,

How do I do that then?

How do I stay in the observer position?

Or,

You know,

How do I kind of manage my shit of being human so I can be fully human?

You know?

So,

So what,

Where do you go with it?

Like what,

What's your,

What's your way?

My simplest go-to is completely physical.

I do not think you do that through the mind ever.

I think you just get more and more tangled in your own identity turbine and you're like then like whirling around.

Yep.

Just polluting everything.

For me,

I will literally take off my shoes,

Go outside,

Sit on the ground and make my exhales longer than my inhales.

Yeah.

There is nothing simpler than that until I reregulate and I can feel the difference in tone between a trauma response and information from my life force.

Yes.

Like what's the summoning for my life force?

What's a trauma response?

A trauma response that comes up in me will usually feel like that.

Just like,

Like enveloping and like,

Like a,

Like a,

In like a,

Like an ingrown hair,

Like,

Yeah.

And then the information from my life force will,

Will run right up my midline.

Do you know?

And so like those have different tones,

Textures,

Temperatures,

Colors.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so like,

But unless I really ground,

I'm not going to be able to feel that difference because once I'm in that trauma cocoon,

Like everything is just like buzzing in a very atonal sort of way.

In a very dissonant sort of way.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Like that's how I,

Yeah.

Yeah.

I really relate.

And I,

And I really hear that as well about kind of just the noise,

The noise of trauma response or of old patterns or of stuff that is coming up that maybe it's not even yours that can just be so loud that then it's very difficult to without any body regulation to then feel the nuance of actually what,

What belongs to this moment and what belongs to me.

You know,

What is,

What is my experience of what is happening right now?

And that's what I'm really,

Really interested in.

It's like,

How do we get to that?

How do we have the,

The tools and the practices and the mastery to access that in each moment so that we're well resourced and then we can make really good choices,

You know,

From,

From that place.

That's why I love the metabolization metaphor because it is about,

It is about nourishment.

It is about my trauma and my wounding is not fully metabolized until it leaves me as nourishment for others.

Yes.

So what you're saying about like having that sense of the different tones,

Like tuning to the different stations,

Like trauma response,

New information.

Yeah.

They have a totally different playlist.

And so until,

Until I can actually titrate that trauma in my own time,

And I don't always get that choice.

Sometimes I just get fucking knocked to my knees with something old.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know,

It's like,

If like one other thing happens,

Like when I was raped,

Like a lot of other trauma came up in the void that that created in my system.

And then,

You know,

When my dog died last year,

The grief that opened up in my system in that moment brought in a lot of other things that I could not titrate.

I was just brought to my knees and I had to like stay enveloped in all that stuff to,

To notice it,

To be able to see it.

And,

And that's when the witness that grandmother's heart is so important.

So I can sit in,

I can almost like feel myself sitting in her lap,

Sitting in the lap of the world,

Breathing in the lap of the world.

So that I am still in a sense of belonging,

That I don't feel separate that even in that,

In that,

Even at the bottom of the well,

I'm not separate.

I still belong to the world.

And being with those feelings is not just my,

For my egoic self-development,

But is fundamentally like the gift I have to give once I can metabolize it.

Yes.

You know,

Then I can bring it to the potluck and everybody's like,

Oh,

That's a potato salad.

It's great.

You know,

Like,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

But until I do that,

Yeah.

I mean,

And like absorb what nourishes and shit out the rest,

The rest can go in the garden to make the next food,

You know,

Like,

But this sense of like the ecology of nourishment and the system of nourishment definitely helps when it seems incredibly and relentlessly dark.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm just writing this down because it's such a beautiful snippet of language,

The ecology of nourishment.

And I,

I can recognize what you're saying in when I write,

Because I'm a writer as well.

And I can recognize if an experience has touched me really,

Really deeply,

I can feel sometimes that it's not time yet.

It's not time to write about this yet.

You know,

I'm not ready yet because it hasn't,

You know,

And maybe I don't have all the nourishment from it that I'm supposed to have before it then gets put out into the world.

There are other things that have happened that have been fully processed and fully taken in and become a part of me that I can then use to kind of show and tell,

You know,

Just like,

Here it is.

And it's very clean.

There's something really clean about it where there is,

It's not devoid of emotion because that's still there,

But there is a cleanness about it that feels,

Feels like clarity.

And I feel like that's at some level,

That's the path of each of us is that while we're here,

You know,

Is we're here,

We're here to metabolize our own experiences and then to be able to gift those.

I think you're right.

It's like unmistakably clean when it's coming from the big self.

And it will have like a clarity that doesn't even belong to you.

It will come out clear.

And people will respond to it.

When I'm still,

Like I was writing a piece yesterday about how to open when you want to close.

And then by the time I got like 4,

000 words into it,

I was like,

No,

Sometimes you should just close.

Like that's what a sphincter is for.

If it were open all the time,

It would just make a mess.

And I like talked about it because I have such a history of like being an avoidant attacher.

So for me,

The difficult thing is opening when I want to close,

But then I've like swung completely into the opposite direction now become an anxious attacher,

Which is like a totally new experience in my body.

But it's like,

I don't have to keep opening all the time.

Like that does sometimes just make a mess.

Yes.

Yeah.

Oh,

It took me because it was coming from my ego's confusion.

Like the writing was not coming from big self.

I had not metabolized it yet.

I was using the writing to metabolize it.

So it was like,

Oh yeah,

This is a hot mess.

And then I came out realizing that the truth was something was not what I came in with,

Which is usually when something ends up being that long.

It took me 4000 words.

I love it.

It's one of my preferred ways of processing.

It's just,

It's so good.

And it's so good that you then get to look at it as well afterwards and,

You know,

And see what resonates and see what's bullshit and just be like,

Oh yeah,

No,

That's not true.

And to have the sense of humor about how clumsy I am and like how none of this practice is about being less clumsy or less messy.

It's just about cleaning up your messes and like making fewer of them.

But like sometimes you just got to slap around in the mud like it's a giant rent area.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And for me,

It's about being real.

Like how real,

How real can you be?

How real can you be and still be kind?

Which I think is a really,

Really good question with no answer.

Well,

Because I often ask myself,

Like a very good friend of mine did a Dharma talk a year ago,

Like it might be true,

But is it honest?

OK,

Can you say more about that?

Well,

Yeah,

Truth,

Truth can sometimes swing a sword like cutting through delusion.

But honesty has heart in it.

Honesty is a very human thing.

Like truth is universal cosmic.

You know,

Honesty is between human beings.

Yeah.

And sometimes,

You know,

Honesty is truth tempered with kindness.

You know,

It's like knowing when to put the sword back in the sheath and bring up the rose.

If the bodhisattva holds a sword in one hand and a flower in the other,

Like knowing when to put the flower ahead of the sword.

Like there's more value in that,

More skill.

Yeah,

There's definitely a lot of skill in that and kind of involves being able to see reactivity for what it is and to place it to the side.

In myself and others.

Yes.

Ah.

Can you just sit there for a minute?

We got stuff to do and it does not concern you.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It's so easy to see in other people.

And then like,

God,

I just had like being in this relationship phase of like nine months,

Like going deep into my own stuff and realizing what a sloppy dumpster fire I am still sometimes.

And like then having like the imposter syndrome about like,

I'm working with people and having clarity with them and like,

Oh my God,

What do I,

Who do I think I am?

Like going through like that whole spiral as well.

And then just,

And like being able to write that out of being like,

Yeah,

You're a ridiculous person.

Just like every other goddamn ridiculous person,

You know?

And like,

We're just like that Ram Dass line of like,

We're all just walking each other home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know,

It's just like,

Yeah.

For me,

It's just like,

Okay,

I've metabolized quite a lot.

And it has turned out to be useful,

But there is no,

We all,

God,

We all have our own note to sing in this magnificent choir.

And like,

None of us are fucking special.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that.

And I think it just,

It dissolves any of that imposter syndrome,

Any of that feeling of who am I to be doing this?

It's like,

Well,

You know,

Nobody put you there.

It's like you said,

For everybody who has their own experience,

There is value and treasure to be gleaned from that.

So,

And this is the way I look at it.

It's like,

Well,

If you resonate with my story and with what I've got to say,

Then you're going to come along and you're going to listen.

But if you don't,

Then it's not for you.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

And that feels,

That feels true to me.

And it feels like from experience and,

You know,

From what's happened over the last few years,

It certainly does bring the right people towards me.

Absolutely.

And me in front of the right people,

You know,

It's,

Again,

It comes back to that trust and like everything's working out exactly as it ought to be.

It's okay.

It's okay.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I love it.

And yeah.

And yeah,

Being with that in all of its iterations and find like letting my feet go all the way to the bottom of what I think is unbearable and then finding out how buoyant I actually am and like stretching that definition of unbearable.

Oh yeah.

And it's like,

Oh God,

Again,

Really do I have to stretch it again?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like we,

We get more afraid of what we anticipate being unbearable than just being in the experience and like allowing the skin to expand,

You know?

Yeah.

That's so true.

That is so,

So true.

Yeah.

I,

I have a direct experience of that.

About six months ago,

I went through a breakup,

Which I thought could not be any more painful.

I kept discovering new depths of like,

Okay,

Here we go again.

Get down there.

Exactly.

And it's incredible how that transforms,

You know,

And I don't want to,

I don't want to sugar coat it in any way because it's,

It's horrendous.

No,

It's horrible.

Whilst being in it.

And also it's,

It's that,

You know,

It's like the flip.

It can only go so far this way before it flips.

That's universal law.

Exactly.

It's natural law.

So there is,

There is a comfort in that.

There is a comfort in,

You know,

The way of things being ultimately wise,

Which I love so much.

Absolutely.

That's like,

That was putting that in my own words was definitely the fruit of the itching process,

Book writing process for me this year.

Like that every step of that way is essential.

And that there are periods in that cycle for rest.

There are periods in that cycle for action.

There are periods in that cycle for following.

There are periods in that cycle for leading like,

And be having the confidence to be in fidelity with all it is like,

So that I will know when the time for each is here.

Yeah.

So that I'm embodied enough to read the energetic snapshot of this moment.

So I'm responding to this moment.

Oh,

But God damn,

That feels perilous sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not another down.

Come on.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I get you.

I get you.

I think also the,

Like the trust in,

In oneself to identify each period as well and to go,

Oh,

Is this or is this just me being weird?

Or,

You know,

It's,

How am I understanding what is going on here?

I have no idea how this is sounding to people on the podcast.

Clearly off the wall and then out.

But I just,

I love it because this is since I was about four years old,

I have had this big knowing of that I'm on a planet that the planet is in space,

You know,

That my consciousness is limited.

Yeah.

And I literally have had that knowing in my body for all these years and not really been able to explain it until now.

So I feel like these conversations really light me up because I'm like,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I want to talk about this,

You know?

And,

And I feel as if,

If these were the sorts of things that were usual to have discussions about,

You know,

Maybe in schools,

Then,

You know,

Just like kids and teenagers and young adults could have a completely different perspective.

You know,

My kids aren't at school anymore.

They're,

They're too old,

But it just really makes me think like the work that you and I do and that anybody who's had an expansion of consciousness sees fit to do is of such high value.

I think we all come into the world with that expanded consciousness and the world and the world gradually winnows it down.

And that's my fondest task as an auntie is to keep my niece's mind open,

To keep her noticing every plant that grows,

To keep her touching it and smelling it and feeling like noticing the different barks and the scents and the different flowers.

And like,

It was my greatest joy when she's like,

Can I take my feet off and stand in this muddy hole?

Like,

Absolutely.

Yes,

You can.

We just dug that hole and now you can stand in that muddy hole and having that sense of like being in the world,

Like that sense of rootedness,

That sense of partaking of a place and like emerging from that place,

Not just like living on the surface of it,

But really like being a part of it because like that sense of belonging,

Like I came into the world with that,

Like that thing that you're telling me,

Both incredibly vast and incredibly intimate.

Yeah.

And then like we get severed from that because how else could we become so covetous of things outside ourselves unless we were severed from that essential sense of belonging?

How else could our economy work unless we were so full of craving and aversion that we would like work hard to get away from what we have an aversion to and get more of what we crave?

And it's like,

I don't want that umbilical cord to all that is to be severed in her because she's only five,

You know?

So it's like,

How can we maintain that?

Yeah.

Oh,

That's so lovely.

I love the,

I love the essence of really small ones because it's so pure and you can just,

You can feel it coming off them.

It feels so good.

But it's so malleable.

It gets shaped and warped so quickly because it is so open and soft,

You know,

That it's like,

Ah,

Keep it open,

Keep it open.

You know,

Don't,

Don't,

Don't extrude it too tightly or too narrow just yet,

Please.

I love it.

I'm just looking at the time.

I think we should probably close now.

I just wondered if you might be able to just tell people just a short piece about Oracle of Emergence and where they can get it.

You can get Oracle of Emergence and Evolutionary I Ching.

I have it right here.

Oh,

Amazing.

It's on Amazon in all markets.

It is basically a fresh,

Very American,

Very feminine take on a 5,

000 year old Oracle.

Yeah.

So it's been in use for at least 2,

500 years,

But it predates the Confucian era that's come to define it and all these other things.

And it has definitely been a tool for armies,

Politics,

And patriarchy for a very long time.

And I wanted to restore it to its ecological essence and restore it to the ecology of erotic emergence and give it that sense of allow it allow the I Ching itself to be replenished by yin.

Like there are so many old translations where the yin is seen as like only destructive.

And that I think speaks to our resistance to the erotic pulse of ruin.

You know,

Our resistance,

Our desire to pull away from that molting because we don't know what will be on the other side of it.

And our pursuit of certainty is the root of all evil.

And the more we can open to uncertainty with that confidence with fidelity to all that is,

The more we will be able to pull our own world back from the brink and ourselves back from the brink.

And that was kind of like what gave me the urgency to write this now.

Like I wrote it in nine months.

I've been working with the I Ching for 25 years,

But it felt,

It felt fucking necessary.

Yes.

So yeah,

I wanted to make it more accessible.

A lot of other versions of the I Ching,

Even the parts about throwing the coins can be very confusing,

Very off-putting.

It can be so steeped in Chinese culture that it just seems separate from you.

Yes.

And I wanted to really have a version that was like the kind of I Ching you could have a beer with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That I was willing to like let go of some poetic nuance in order to have it be as accessible and fresh as possible.

I love it.

Thank you so much.

That's amazing.

And I have read snippets of your book that you've put out into the world and I enjoy it so much because I enjoy,

There's a certain,

There's a certain lightness that goes along with the depth as well.

So it feels accessible,

But it also,

It makes me smile,

Which I love.

So I can't wait to get my copy.

Yeah.

It's the world's oldest choose your own adventure book.

Every morning you throw the coins and who knows what's going to happen just like the day itself.

So perfect.

That's amazing.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I really enjoyed it.

Me too.

Yeah.

I'll speak to you again soon.

Cool.