Pain As Illusion? Releasing Consciousness With Antonia

On December 11, 2023, Antonia and I dug into: how love is what's underneath after clearing and healing pain; pain existing where consciousness doesn't flow; being more creative on how to see beyond pain; noticing how pain changes; and is pain real; not believing the story of pain; our relationships to pain; fear, shame, rage, resistance; buying out of identifications; clinging; outdated belief systems falsely posing as love; anger; boundaries; power of presence and attention; using spaciousness of meditation to bridge to higher realities.

Transcript

Hold us.

Welcome.

This is Josh Teppold of Integrating Presence,

And today I have Antonia with me.

Is that right,

Antonia?

Antonia.

It's usually how people pronounce it.

Antonia.

Thank you.

Okay.

So how's it going?

How are you?

And what's going on today?

Yeah,

It's good.

I am actually down in southern Mexico,

Trying to absorb some of the heat and the ocean to help things move more easily.

So I feel very fortunate to be able to be here.

Very cool.

So the standard format is,

Especially if I don't know the guest,

Is to toss it right back to you and let you introduce yourself.

Who is Antonia and what does she do?

So I am a registered psychotherapist,

A meditation teacher,

Yoga teacher,

A lot of the standards that seem to be in the healing circles.

And in the last 17 years,

You know,

Kind of all of that launched in the last 17 years because of a very sort of strange shift in realities that happen.

And because of that,

Sort of a lot of the work that I do and the teachings that I do moved literally into a whole other reality.

So that's the big picture.

Well,

That is the big picture.

I would imagine there are still some people listening to this that have are kind of still in the standard version of reality or more day to day.

My fiance calls it the base program.

Is there anything worth mentioning from that to bring people to where or were you always in this type of thing?

You know,

The standard work a day world,

Were you ever part of that?

And yeah,

Yeah,

I came from before 2006.

I came from a very academic,

Political reality.

I was in human rights and international development.

It was a very supercharged reality and a very thinking reality,

A very intellectual reality.

And then in 2006,

For reasons that I think,

You know,

So many people leave their sort of a life path,

Something,

There was enough space for something to click for my life,

You know,

A life path to ignite.

And it became extremely bizarre,

According to these old standards and actually became very,

Very uncomfortable.

And what I started to do and still do is I release pain.

I just continue to release trauma out of this body.

And through that process of releasing pain almost on a daily basis,

Physical,

Emotional,

Mental,

Energetic,

Discomfort,

Disorder,

Something that's not in alignment,

Then a lot of new wisdom and knowing came in and a lot of questions as to what reality is really about.

So for example,

Question was,

If pain can be there one second and gone the next,

And all of the thought processes and beliefs and feelings that go with it,

If it can be there one second and gone the next,

Can it actually be real?

And so then I began to ask,

Well,

If pain isn't actually real,

What does that make this reality?

And then what is actually real?

And what I found underneath every painful rock was that the reality that kept showing was one of compassion and love and connection.

That seemed to be the standard that continued to show up and all the wisdoms that were sort of locked underneath the pain revealed themselves that in a way that it was really hard for me to take because it was so,

You know,

In academia,

It would be considered fluff and mushy.

And it took years for me to actually,

You know,

Absorb that our reality is actually founded upon.

And I believe our original selves are constructed upon energies and a reality of just love.

I mean,

And I think that that's just physics.

It became just physics.

It's the way that we operate.

Yeah,

Well,

You said a lot there.

So we can,

Before we even start unpacking that,

Let's,

Let's back up here to well,

First off,

I want to say that's a huge part of my path to is investigating the true nature of reality.

And to me,

That's I mean,

If it's other everything else is just a falsehood and a lie and not really worth the time or delusion and deception.

There's so many different overlays of deception and things that just aren't false.

And there's a lot of people with a lot of good intentions.

They just haven't looked deeper into what's going on.

I know I'm do the same thing of repeating this other people as well.

I mean,

Then there are certain things that are helpful along our path for a certain time.

And then there's layers and layers and layers,

But let's just start with pain itself.

Okay,

So this is,

You know,

I've been into the Buddhist teachings and Buddhist practices and this word dukkha,

Which is sometimes translated as pain,

But not like suffering,

Which is a really intense word in the in the Western world,

Because people think,

Well,

I'm not suffering,

That's so intense,

But it can even be as subtle as unsatisfactoriness,

This thing that just these things aren't right,

You know,

No matter how much I think I've got everything I want,

You know,

Or if I could just get this other thing,

Then I'll be happy.

And it's just that thing never ends.

So it's just that nothing ever satisfies.

But when you talk about the pain body,

Now this is something in,

You know,

Synchronous,

Synchronous here,

Because my fiance was in physical pain here recently.

And mom,

I think she's,

She's had extra ramping up of physical pain and stuff like this.

So from a from personal experience,

Let's,

Let's start there.

Let's,

I guess,

Maybe talk more about the pain body,

How these how this perception,

Let's just perception of pain,

Or experience of pain.

And I mean,

So it's more palpable for people,

We can do physical pain.

But I know I've experienced a lot of psychological and psychic emotional pain,

Too.

So yeah,

There's so many different pains.

And a lot of times it can be felt in the body,

Whatever pain we're having,

It seems to have a physical correspondence in the body.

So talk about that.

What is there an origin to this?

Do you think,

You know,

Where does it come from?

How does it get there?

How does it get reinforced?

And then how do we work with it and let it go?

So a lot,

A lot of questions there.

I think it's a great conversation.

So the way I understand and way pain came to me and and its function is that we have,

I think,

I see ourselves right now in this reality,

We've kind of crunched ourselves into a very small,

Dense reality.

And in that reality,

That's very unaware space,

Because,

Because consciousness doesn't flow very well in this reality.

Now,

Where consciousness doesn't flow,

Pain exists.

And we could use pain or suffering as a state of not seeing as a state where consciousness doesn't flow very well.

So where consciousness doesn't flow very well,

The nature of pain is actually to only see itself.

And the example I use with my clients is,

For example,

If you're riding a bicycle and you get hit by a car and your leg is broken,

You could have a dozen people that flood up to you that want to assist you,

That want to get you to the hospital,

That want to make sure you're okay.

But the only thing that you and your broken leg can see is your broken leg.

So that pain keeps us in a state of unseeing and a very narrow view of our reality.

The wonder of that is an out of that narrow view of reality,

That pain only sees itself,

Its own needs and how to get out of pain.

And one of the ways to get out of pain is be avoidant and deny it,

Which is what one of the ways that we cope in this reality and keeps us stuck in this reality.

But one of the things that come out of this very crunched,

Narrow reality is we develop incredible creative capacities to then expand our reality so we get out of this pain space.

And so one of the things,

The eras that I think we're moving into now is to draw in,

To bring in many different flavors of seeing,

Of seeing,

Of awareness,

Which is consciousness,

Which is to see beyond the pain.

So I think that that's what's happening now is that we are getting very creative on how we draw in awareness slash consciousness,

Which is love.

This is a good way to put it.

I might add something there.

And to me,

Those are perceptual changes,

That it's a different way of perceiving what's happening to us.

So that's,

We go from perceiving it one way to expanding our perception,

To having all kinds of other choices and how to see this and to then respond with it,

Perhaps.

But yes,

I would say that the narrowness of consciousness,

You know,

The untrained mind,

When it's in pain,

It wants to deal with that,

Because that's the most important thing.

Consciousness seems to be drawn to where it's needed the most,

Right?

But like you're saying,

It tends to get locked into a narrow,

Fixated view,

But doesn't really have the proper tools or vision,

Like you're saying,

In order to know how to see it in a better light or what to do with it and how to respond to it.

Yes.

Now,

The other thing you said there,

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Well,

I think,

You know,

One of the things that I teach my clients then is to reframe their perception.

And one of the reframings that I offer consistently in all the teachings and the retreats is,

If pain can be there one second and gone the next,

Meaning,

Is it actually real?

Meaning,

Then pain can show up and it can hurt like the devil and it can take over.

But I think the shifting needs to begin in this not believing.

Not believing the story that pain is trying to tell you is a fundamental foundation in beginning to bring in the energy of consciousness,

Of awareness,

Of the just pure seeing,

So that we can shift our relationship with pain,

Which then allows it the very energy,

The density of pain itself starts to shift.

And that's where more potential comes in.

And that's where different flavors of love come in.

And that's where different flavors of compassion come in and shifting the relationship between and therefore shifting our reality.

Very good points.

I want to get to love and dig into that in a little bit,

Because that's a huge one.

And so this set it up really well there.

Our relationship and the story and the belief,

Those three keywords are so powerful.

And I think Western society has been conditioned so much to have to believe or disbelieve things.

And it's actually in my experience,

There's no need that we have to believe or disbelieve anything.

There's another option of just taking it as information.

That way,

The emotional investment isn't required to believe or disbelieve something.

It takes a lot of emotional energy to believe or disbelieve something,

But it's not actually necessary.

And when we're looking for the truth of the way things are,

Belief can actually get in the way of truth,

Because it's really hard to let go of a belief,

Even if something true comes in that counters a false belief we have,

Then it's harder to let go of that belief because we've spent so much time and energy upholding a belief that maybe no longer might service.

Now,

The stories are great too,

Right?

Because we understand our world and stories,

But a lot of times they're just not helpful.

I mean,

Look at the media and stuff,

All these,

I mean,

They're fascinating stories,

But at the end of the day,

How many are actually helping improve our lives?

We don't hear about all the goodness in the world too,

In the love that people show each other and the helpful things and stories can be based around them,

But they don't really sell that well a lot of times,

Right?

And now the relationship is that is so important because even when we're not around other people,

We're in relationship to every single experience that we have,

Every single phenomena we can have a relationship.

And even an absence of a relationship is a type of relationship too.

Yeah.

And I think that that relationship,

It shows up,

Whether I'm in my,

What I would call the programmed reality,

Or I'm in an authentic reality shows up in what appears in that relationship,

The energy between me and whatever the other is.

And the way I experience it,

Or the way I gauge it is if they're showing up only as either neutrality or love or compassion,

Then I believe that there's high consciousness flowing and that we're in that,

In more of an original reality,

A higher reality.

But if there's fear or shame or rage or resistance,

Then that's a programmed reality.

That's fear,

Shame,

Rage that needs to be observed and brought into awareness so that we can reveal the story underneath and then release it.

Very good.

Now,

Have you come across people that,

When we tell them about like shame,

Blame,

And guilt,

That they can add extra layers of shame,

Blame,

And guilt on top because they have shame,

Blame,

And guilt.

You know what I mean?

I feel shameful that I have shame.

It's just this compounding thing.

So you're familiar with this too.

How do we deal with people like that?

And then also people have to be open too,

Because there's certain types of people,

They're just not open to help a lot of times,

Right?

Or want to hear things because then they think that they should have done it on their own already,

That then it's something they've done wrong because they haven't done it on their own yet,

Right?

Because then it's like,

Okay,

You know what I mean,

Right?

Yeah,

Yeah.

But I think that that's all part of the teaching to reframe it and part of the not believing in the essence of the story.

As soon as you identify it as fear,

Shame,

And rage,

I teach people,

As soon as you identify it,

Then know that you're seeing a story and that's your opportunity to change your relationship with it,

No matter what it's saying,

No matter what the thought process is,

As soon as you identify,

And this is difficult because we live in realities of denial.

So to actually see,

Be willing to see that I'm in a story of fear,

Shame,

And rage,

Whether it's directed outwards or whether it's directed inwards,

To still identify it as a story and a manifestation of a reality you can choose to buy out of and actually transform,

Then we buy out,

No matter what the direction of the fear,

Shame,

And rage,

Guilt,

Grief,

Disgust is,

It doesn't matter.

So just to identify,

And I assist my clients in identifying it through the feeling in the body,

Where is the vibration of fear,

Shame,

Rage showing up?

And if you can't get in the body,

Then it's identifying through a thought process.

Is this thought process one of reflecting one of compassion,

Love,

Even neutrality?

And if it's not,

Then you have a breadcrumb trail into what's going on where you're holding the density of the story,

The non-reality in your being,

In your body.

This is,

I think this is the absolute key,

And one of the most important points of all this is our identification,

Because we can have all these experiences,

But the moment we pick it up,

And say,

Okay,

This is who I am,

This is me,

I'm a rageful person,

I'm an angry,

I'm a sad person,

I'm this,

I'm that,

And that's who I am.

People make that who they are,

But that's not it.

It's just an experience passing through,

Right?

These experiences come and go.

It's only when we pick it up,

Latch it on and cling tightly to it and say,

This is me,

This is mine,

This is who I am.

That's when the problems start to me,

Yeah.

We've been trained for thousands of years to cling,

And I think,

And we've been,

We've inherited,

I believe,

In the very dense programming of the physical self,

Ways of clinging and holding and believing,

And so I think that we,

You know,

We,

At this time,

I believe it's an extremely magical time,

Because I think that we are getting enough energy that's starting to come in to start to shift both on the individual and the collective level,

These old programs of holding,

These old belief systems of oppression,

Of resistance,

So I think that we are getting deeper and deeper,

Bringing the seeing into the old ways that we even thought were love,

And we recognize,

Actually,

This isn't love at all.

This is just another way of denying and avoiding and depressing,

So we're bringing energy into those really ancient,

Ancient programs of holding and resisting,

I think,

And that's what makes this era right now,

And I mean era like few hundred years,

I think we're probably going to be going through,

Of this big reveal and this big opening and this big expansion.

I think it's quite a rich time.

Well,

Yeah,

We can definitely get into the current energetics and where you think things are going in more detail,

But the clinging thing is absolutely clear and on board with that.

The more we cling,

The more we're going to experience suffering,

You know,

So how can we cling less or at least tighten the clinging?

Now,

I get it,

If someone throws us a life preserver,

You know,

That makes sense to cling on to for a while,

But just because it saves our life doesn't mean we're going to go and carry it around with us the rest of our lives,

Right,

And cling on to that,

So there's a time to pick up something,

And there's a time to put it down,

And there's a time to tighten our grip on something,

But more than likely,

If we just walk around with a tight fist all the time,

It's more helpful if we,

You know,

Loosen that grip,

And then we have more functionality in our hand when we,

You know,

Yeah,

And so,

Yeah.

Yeah,

I mean,

Anger is one of those things,

For example,

That can serve us.

Something's not working.

Something got in that shouldn't get in,

And we have a contracted state.

We observe the contracted state.

We let the body move out of a fight-or-flight state,

And we go,

Okay,

What got in,

And now I can move into a higher self and decide how do I need to rearrange my boundaries in order for this being to feel safe,

At least right now,

And our definition of safety,

If we're aware,

Will also shift and change as we continue to construct a safer reality,

Right,

As we continue to see that what we thought was a threat a year ago or in the past lifetime is actually no longer a threat,

But,

You know,

Something like anger,

I think,

Can serve us in a second,

In a moment,

That contracted state,

And then if we're in aware state,

We can let it go and mind it for what it's trying to tell us.

I totally agree,

And yeah,

Sometimes the most compassionate thing we can do is set and reinforce boundaries instead of just completely cutting people off forever.

I mean,

You know,

That boundary might need to be there for the rest of our lives,

But,

You know,

As things change,

You know,

Yeah,

There is still the protection,

But then the opportunity if there needs to be or wants to be reconnection in the future,

But maybe not,

So that there's options,

And there's safety and protection.

Things change and things evolve.

Yeah,

It's a beautiful thing,

And anger,

I found,

Too,

Is like,

To me,

It's kind of like a last-ditch effort because sometimes if people are in an abusive situation,

That anger is,

You know,

It could be a motivating force to get up and get out of there,

Do anything one needs to get out of an abusive situation,

You know,

Instead of,

Oh,

I should just accept this type of thing,

These obvious things to us,

But that's a whole other dynamic,

Too.

So yeah,

I'd like to transition to the love thing,

And,

You know,

In the Buddhist traditions,

They're called the Brahma Viharas,

Or the dwelling place that sublime abodes,

And these are four flavors of love,

And they're boundless states,

So there is no competition needed,

You know,

There is no limit,

You know,

They're inexhaustible and without measure,

And so compassion is one,

You already mentioned that,

To me,

That's acknowledging pain,

And then caring,

You know,

Authentically as much as I can for it,

And then wanting it to cease,

And then knowing peace,

And then there's this loving-kindness,

I like to call it unstoppable friendliness,

Too,

You know,

It's just well-wishing,

And to me,

At the start of this,

This is just an absence of ill will,

You know,

As long as there's no ill will,

In a sense,

That's kindness,

Loving-kindness,

And it can just,

You know,

May you be safe,

Happy,

Peaceful,

Healthy,

Strong,

You know,

Free,

And at ease,

And then there's this,

The one that's often overlooked is this rejoicing,

Being happy for other people's happiness,

If there's how many billion people on the earth,

If we can be happy for their happiness,

That increases our chances so much,

You know,

And my tendency is to get jealous for someone,

Oh,

Why are they happy,

And I'm not,

Then I realize,

Hey,

Wait a second,

There's no,

There's,

I'm not competing for this,

I,

Just because they have happiness doesn't mean that I can't have that,

Or be happy for their happiness,

And so it's such a great feeling to rejoice in others' happiness,

And then equanimity,

What you called,

Or neutrality,

And in a way,

That's it,

So it's this grand,

Grandparently love that,

You know,

I'm here,

I know this,

I've seen this,

I've been through this,

And at the same time,

I can't make the choices of anyone else for them,

They have to live their own life,

But I'm here in support,

And I care,

And I'm not indifferent,

But I can't live your life for you,

You have to do it yourself,

Yeah.

And that presence is,

You know,

As we're finding out,

It's so much stronger,

And more healing than we ever knew,

I think the power of presence is really coming to the forefront more and more,

That it is a superpower,

And has a lot more to offer than our western mind has believed it to be.

Absolutely,

Generosity,

You know,

Is great,

Because we can be generous with our presence,

I mean,

Look at the trillions that are spent on advertising,

Just to get our attention,

But when we really give authentic attention to someone,

To really see and hear them,

It is such a great gift that,

I mean,

Is invaluable,

So.

Yeah,

I think it's a wellspring of healing energy that comes out of that.

I think it's really important that we begin to see and witness when we're sitting in one,

You know,

A dense reality,

The false reality,

And how it feels,

And looks,

And our perceptions,

And our thought processes are different when we're in a higher reality.

And so,

In order to navigate between the two,

We need to create a space in between,

That brings in the energy of the higher reality.

We need to take the time of nothingness,

Of spaciousness,

In order to bring in the higher energies into our beings,

This is my real estate that I own,

And in order to shift realities,

I need to bring in the potential of a new reality.

I think it's just so important to take that time,

In that space,

To get very quiet,

To do the inner work,

Because that new reality is within here,

It's not out there,

That is where we are voyaging,

That is where our adventure is.

So,

Meditation,

And silence,

And space are the most important medicines,

I think,

And more and more of us are discovering that,

But I think it's beyond just a good habit,

I think it's fundamental,

In order to shift these realities,

Is to create that space,

And to bring it into your being.

I couldn't amplify and support meditation more,

So thank you so much,

Antonia,

For joining,

And may you all be well,

And may your meditation practices and inward journeys go well,

And may you find a connect with the right guides,

And friends,

And communities to help support them.

Be well,

You all.

I really feel your well wishes,

Thank you so much,

And I return them to you.

I appreciate that,

Thank you so much.