Gratitude | Nov 23, 2023 Mindful Q&A W/ Wendy Nash #14

For this fourteenth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we undertake a special and abbreviated (laden with technical challenges) Thanksgiving edition, mostly about appreciation and gratitude.

Transcript

So let's just start.

Wendy,

How's it going today?

How are you?

Yeah,

Good.

So as you know,

I'm actually a little bit tired.

I'm happy.

I've had some great connections,

But I'm a little bit tired.

As you know,

I've got a community movement as my engaged Dharma practice.

And so that involves a lot of networking and networking meetings.

And there's a lot of them at the moment for Christmas parties.

So I've just done quite a few,

And I'm going,

Oh,

I just need a bit of time out.

But I've made some great connections.

And it's,

It's really good,

Because there's been such positive vibe.

And that's really nice to be a part of to part of a lot of people who are actually in positions of power who say,

What you're doing is great.

And just because you're in a position of power doesn't mean to say you can change everything.

So they appreciate my efforts to make some changes and see what's possible.

So it's great.

Very good news.

It seems.

Yeah,

These things can be very tiring and trying sometimes,

But they can also be very rewarding.

And it sounds like just the sheer amount of things you're doing with that,

It's just gonna eventually get tired,

You know,

Unless you're a superwoman or something,

Right?

So yeah,

That's it.

So yeah,

We're gonna talk about gratitude.

Go ahead.

Yes.

And just a teaser for next time,

We're going to keep this one short to 30 minutes,

Since it is Thanksgiving Day here in the United States.

And initially,

The family planned to show up and celebrate tomorrow.

But I got a surprise today when everybody showed up.

So it's still still should work out very small rural connection here from a satellite spotty connection.

But I'm grateful that this technology works.

I mean,

It's really amazing that I'm sitting here in rural Missouri talking to Wendy who is in Australia.

Wow,

It's it's quite something.

And yeah,

Gratitude.

So definitely grateful for that.

Wendy,

What is the I want to what does this mean to you?

What does the gratitude mean to you?

And is it different from thankfulness?

You know,

I'm I'm a bit of a I actually don't like the word gratitude.

And I don't like the gratitude movement.

There you are.

It's a very controversial statement.

I find that often it's a bit a bit aligned with the positive thinking movement and quite aligned with sort of more doing I'm going to be gratitude for what I've got.

I'm I need to be and I should and I'm going to think happy and I'm going to think it's all amazing.

And the truth is,

It's often rubbish,

You know,

Life is really tough,

You know,

It's really difficult.

And so I I take a different approach.

I'm much more about not looking for,

Yes,

I've got a safe house.

And yes,

I've got,

You know,

A loving family.

I and and all of that is true.

And that's not to negate the,

The joy that I experienced from having that.

But I don't find that gratitude is the mechanism that works for me.

For me,

What I like is I like to just,

Whenever anybody does anything that makes me feel at ease in a very small way,

I I just say thank you.

So if my partner does the dishes or cooks me dinner or buys me something,

Buys food at the supermarket or feeds the cat or any brings me a cup of tea,

Or a friend texts me and says,

Ask for help.

And I'm able to provide that,

That connection,

I appreciate and I just allow it to those those moments to put a pause moment and allow them to land on my and I allow them to sink into my well being.

So that's my take.

I'm just not really big on the I'm going to be grateful for,

You know,

The horrible things that happened to me,

Because I'm a better person for it.

I just,

That's just not my bag.

This is great,

Wendy.

I love this.

And just so you know,

You cut out a little bit verbally,

But I was able to piece it most together.

And this you talk about appreciation,

And this is lovely.

And I,

It's really refreshing,

Which you said that you just don't immediately go on board with these things without any kind of questioning,

Without any kind of reflection,

Or contemplation.

And you have a really good point about there's this toxic positivity thing going on sometimes.

And I like how you talk about appreciation.

And this is really what all that points to,

To me is authenticity,

Right?

We're not trying to generate something fake,

And then pretend it's something that's not just because somebody says we'll be better off for it.

I think this is the key when we talk about these types of practices or reflections,

Or explorations that they're authentic,

You know.

Now,

I want to throw something in though,

On the other end,

And just go off the deep end of the other side of it in this notion of what if I could be grateful for everything,

You know.

It's a really challenging thing.

Now,

I've talked about this story before.

I think it's from Gil Fronstel's book,

A Monastery Within,

Where this younger woman goes to a monastery,

And she wants to ordain.

But it turns out before she can,

Her sister dies and leaves a kid behind,

And now she has to become the primary caretaker of this child.

If I'm getting this right,

I'm paraphrasing,

Of course.

And she goes back to the abbess and tells her this,

And she can't ordain.

She says,

Well,

Now your practice is to be grateful for everything.

In a way,

It sounds really ridiculous.

But in another way,

It's like,

Okay,

Well,

Where's this,

You know,

This silver lining?

If I had to exercise my perception,

You know,

What of worth can be found in this that I'm just not making it up,

You know.

So,

The easy kind of blanket statement is,

What is this trying to teach me?

Is it trying to teach me anything?

Is it trying to test anything?

Or I like this notion of,

What weakness is this helping me strengthen?

So,

These are some interesting kind of radical notions.

That's on one end,

And I like Wendy's notion that,

Yeah,

It's something where,

You know,

It needs to be authentic,

And it has to be practical in our everyday lives.

So,

Yeah,

We'll pick up on this,

Wendy.

Do you have anything to add to this?

I think it's really good.

You know,

And I appreciate your take,

Which is about authenticity,

Which I hadn't really thought about.

But that is the really,

I mean,

That's the thing about all Dharma practice.

And I think it's very interesting,

The idea that things don't always work out the way you want them to.

But what can you take from every situation to include that which is painful and difficult,

Like the aunt who suddenly gets to care for the child?

And what can you do to say,

This is,

This,

There's something I can learn here.

And that,

That I think is really good.

And,

And that doesn't negate the challenge of it suddenly becoming the care of a small child or a baby or,

You know,

That's a big job.

And that's one that many women are left to carry.

And,

You know,

Much more than men,

You know,

If men had to care for all the,

All the,

All the children,

I think that the financial priorities would quickly change as a society.

So,

But taking on board that,

What,

What,

What can I learn?

What is difficult?

And I think in that is somewhere saying,

Sometimes I'm not going to be able to get it right.

But I'm going to see if I can do some good and to the best of my ability,

But I,

It's kind of okay to fail too.

Yes,

I totally,

Well,

You know,

And that's another way,

These,

These working with perceptions here,

You know,

The way we see things is really,

Really important.

And I think there's levels of views and perceptions that are helpful in one time in our lives.

And then those can drop away for other ones.

But,

You know,

This,

This notion of what we can learn is,

And then also where's the opportunity for mastery,

Because learning is a lifelong process.

And I'm not saying don't learn,

But it really never ends.

But there is a point when we can master things too.

But that's kind of a different discussion.

But what came to mind,

If the men were caring for all the children,

I couldn't help but think of Lord of the Flies,

Where it just turns into absolute disaster of,

You know,

Competition and,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Or a Hunger Games scenario or something.

Yes.

I'm sorry,

But maybe I'm too old fashioned.

But yes,

A feminine value is definitely the cornerstone of raising children.

I mean,

That just seems like common sense to me.

Maybe that's too politically incorrect.

But of course,

We all have masculine and feminine traits as well.

Yeah,

The other thing that comes to mind around gratitude,

Appreciation,

Is this is something where we can't really be in conflict if we're appreciating something,

Right?

The other ways are beauty.

If we find beauty in something,

It's really hard to be in conflict with it.

And serving,

If I'm serving someone or serving myself or serving whatever I seem to be in conflict with,

It seems to take away any kind of conflict.

Of course,

Again,

As long as it is with authenticity,

You know.

So,

I'm trying to think of,

Yeah,

I'll just pass it over to Wendy here again.

Okay.

So,

You know,

It was interesting as you were speaking,

I guess I'm going to ask you one question,

But I'll talk and answer.

One is,

Well,

You've now moved countries,

You've moved to Denmark,

And your visa isn't,

You know,

You can't live there as a permanent resident.

So,

You're in the UK and you're in different countries and now you're back in the US and you're popping all over the place.

And there's a certain wear and tear in that sort of lifestyle that you can never rest.

And that is,

And so I want to ask you,

How can you gain gratitude or thankfulness or appreciation in that space?

So,

Just while,

I'm going to put that to you while I continue on and you can answer that in a sec.

I guess,

What do I think about conflict things?

I think what my sense of appreciation is that it gives me more,

I guess,

A capacity to balance because I've got this community movement to increase the travel options for people in my town,

Because about one in two people can't drive.

And really,

We're in a first world country and there is almost no bus service and the footpaths are pretty negligible,

You know,

Pretty haphazard.

We're in the ninth centile for social disadvantage across the country and there are no bike paths.

So,

There's lots of stuff.

What I would say is that what thankfulness does or appreciation does in that space is it helps nourish me so that I don't burn out.

And it also means that I have the compassion,

I feel sufficiently nourished by that experience,

But I also drive.

It really,

You know,

Keeps me going.

To speak with people who are in power,

To write letters,

To be inspired,

To go,

We have to care for the community.

So,

That,

Is it conflict?

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure it's that far from conflict,

But it's not obvious conflict,

But it's not passive.

I think that's what I'm saying.

It has a very strong energy of love and passion and that's,

That is a big driver to how you create change,

But you don't change without a lot of frustration and getting people to change their perspectives.

But if you do it in a combative way,

That'll never work.

So,

I guess I asked the question,

Do you mean conflict or combat?

I wasn't,

Anyway,

Maybe that's what we can talk about for another time because we're talking gratitude here.

But my question is,

How have you managed the process of living in Denmark,

The visa difficulties,

Learning a new culture,

A new language,

All those sides of things,

And incorporated thankfulness,

Gratitude,

Appreciation,

Whichever version you use,

In your daily life,

In that?

Unfortunately,

The can't,

But whatever I was able to piece together of globe-trotting lifestyle that I'm doing now,

Or sima,

And I wonder if I can just defer this to potentially other show,

And we can then add in gratitude portion of that.

But I think Wendy has been all over,

And I think there's a decent enough interest,

A show perhaps surrounding this topic of nomadship,

Living in new cultures,

Adapting to new cultures.

This is the right thing,

And I'm talking to so many people,

And I'm so about who are interested in all this stuff,

And I'm doing this so late in life as well.

There gets to be added challenges,

Legalities,

And financial things,

Whatever the term is for marriage and relationships internationally.

So,

I think maybe we could add at some point.

Now,

As far as the conflict thing,

What I meant by that is,

If I'm in conflict with someone,

Or not necessarily conflict,

If I don't like something,

Or I'm against something,

Or I'm just having a hard time,

A negative time,

Not necessarily NIF,

But I'm not seeing things eye-to-eye,

And I want something different than it is,

Or I don't want it to be that way,

I'm struggling,

Basically.

But if I can be authentically grateful,

And find appreciation somehow,

In either the whole situation,

Either it would be with the other,

Or myself,

Or what's happening,

Or maybe what it's trying to teach me,

Or any kind of thread through it at all,

If there's an authentic appreciation,

Or gratitude,

Or thankfulness,

In whatever it may be,

Then it's hard for me at the same time to be both grateful,

Appreciative,

Thankful for something,

And at the same time,

Be against it,

Or don't see any value in it,

Don't want it to be that way,

Right?

So,

It automatically,

I don't know about automatically,

But it seems to bring things in harmony quite a bit,

Right?

But again,

It can't be forced,

Or pretended.

I mean,

It can be,

And maybe that's a little bit better,

But,

You know,

Fakeness,

I'd never recommend fakeness,

Or falsehoods,

Or deception like that,

I don't find very helpful,

And so the alternative can be,

Okay,

I acknowledge where I'm at now,

This freaking sucks,

I don't like it,

I want it to be different,

And at the same time,

Can I aspire,

I can potentially see the benefit of finding something worthwhile in it,

Finding something I can appreciate in it,

And even though I'm not there yet,

Can I work towards that,

Or see what happens when I open up to finding appreciation and gratitude in something I normally would not be,

You know,

The whole practice,

People do gratitude like this,

I think it's a lot of times,

It's just an acknowledgement,

That's where it starts,

Acknowledgement,

And that's a big way towards compassion,

Too.

Okay,

Well,

I'm going to throw it back to Wendy here,

We've got about,

According to the clock on my end,

On this mobile browser,

Like six minutes left,

So,

Wendy,

Take it away here.

Yeah,

I think what we're both speaking to is becoming aware of things that perhaps we may overlook,

That is part of this larger network of our participation,

That are nourishing,

But maybe we are always overlooking that,

Because we spend our time focusing on what's not working,

Because that's more physically painful,

You know,

When you're frustrated,

That has a physical side of things,

And I do think it is really helpful to spend time noticing things that make your life easier,

Make yourself happier,

You know,

I love my partner,

He's a beautiful man,

And I love the house we have,

But it did take me time,

I found the house we live in is really big,

And I found it kind of a little bit lonely,

Or something,

For a while there,

And the garden was really big,

And you know,

It's a lot of maintenance,

And a lot of cleaning,

And I found it pretty overwhelming for a while,

But I guess with time I grew to appreciate what is good here,

But that only happened when I vocalized things that I didn't like,

And then,

And compared it with where I thought it was better,

And then I was able to go,

Yeah,

But on the scale of it,

It was,

It is better here,

And then I started to feel that it was more my place,

And more what I wanted,

But there is a really important role,

I think,

I think I heard a saying once,

It's you,

You can't say yes,

Until you say no,

So I think often it's really important to say,

No,

I'm not happy with that,

No,

I don't like that,

And then go,

Okay,

Well,

What else is here that I might have missed,

That is good,

And that's,

It's looking at the whole picture,

Not just the good,

The bad,

But everything else too,

So I think that's what we're speaking to,

That it's,

There's a,

It's a complex thing to be,

And it's important to be sincere,

And just,

And notice what,

What is here,

That's,

That's kind of it,

I suppose,

That's what I would say.

Whatever's going on in our lives too,

We can either reference points from the past,

We have it as a reference point,

Then we,

We get to have it as a reference point,

The other thing is this looking around our immediate environment,

And the things we are,

And what can we appreciate about that too,

Right,

What is useful and worthwhile to notice about our immediate environment,

And then how far do we want to stretch beyond that to derive benefit from it,

The other thing is,

Yes,

What we pay attention to,

We give energy to,

This is a,

Another teaching that my fiancee likes to use,

Right,

Where attention goes,

Energy flows,

So if we're constantly paying attention to something that's not helpful all the time,

We're going to be amplifying that,

But if we're paying attention to something that is helpful,

And skillful,

And wise,

We're going to be giving more energy,

And inclining the mind towards that,

Training the mind towards that,

You know,

What are we abiding in,

And Wendy's a big practitioner of loving kindness,

You know,

This is a way to cleanse the heart,

To brighten the heart,

And just get rid of ill will,

And I'm coming up on 30 minutes here,

So I'm going to give Wendy some kind of the last words here,

And have her take us out.

I think,

You know,

Everybody is where they are,

And yeah,

You can,

I think sincerity is key,

And when you're sincere,

Your natural disposition of love,

And kindness,

Compassion,

Care,

Joy,

And peace comes forward,

But you just need to kind of be where you are,

And then it will naturally arise.

Again,

I want to say I'm grateful for Wendy bearing through with this,

As it's been a little bit of a disjointed communication on my part,

Because I haven't been able to hear her due to technical difficulties 100% like I normally do,

So I'm very grateful for Wendy sticking with me for this abbreviated session,

And plan on having potentially better connection next time,

And definitely the time after that,

So I'm going to say thank you for anyone listening to this in the United States and beyond,

And yeah,

Have a chance,

Drop in,

Leave a comment,

And tell us how you feel about gratitude,

What's your take on this notion,

And anything else Wendy and I have talked about,

So Wendy,

Thanks again for doing this.

My pleasure,

It's always good,

And it's always good to practice with that which is a challenge.

Oh,

Absolutely,

And stay tuned for next time when we plan to talk about our retreat experiences,

And this is really important to any serious meditation practitioners,

In my humble opinion,

So until then,

Be well,

And yeah,

Keep assessing gratitude,

I guess.

All right,

Bye now.