Little Women Podcast: Social Life In Victorian Times (2)

In the chapter **“Calls,”** Amy and Jo set out to make a series of social visits—a common practice among well-bred young ladies of their era. Amy, who delights in etiquette and the niceties of polite society, persuades Jo to join her, despite Jo’s distaste for such formalities. As the afternoon unfolds, Amy’s poise and diplomacy stand in stark contrast to Jo’s frankness and impatience with convention. While Amy thrives on the structure and elegance of social customs, Jo comes to value sincerity and simplicity over artificial manners.

Join Emily and Niina as they discuss this chapter, exploring themes such as Amy’s admiration for the aristocracy, Jo’s discomfort with receiving compliments, and the poignant conclusion explaining why Jo ultimately does not accompany Aunt March to Europe.

**Speakers:** Niina Niskanen and Emily Lau

Transcript

Let me see.

Calm,

Cool,

And quiet.

Yes,

I think I can promise that.

I've played the part of a prim young lady on the stage,

And I'll try it off.

My powers are great,

As you shall see,

So be easy in your mind,

My child.

Amy looked relieved,

But naughty Jo took her at her word for.

During the first call,

She sat with every limb gracefully composed,

Every footwork correctly draped,

Calm as a summer sea,

Cool as a snowbank and silage as a sink.

In vain,

Mrs.

Chester alluded to her charming novel,

And the Mrs.

Chester introduced Kari's picnics,

The opera,

And the fashion.

Each and all were answered by a smile,

A bow,

And a demure yes or no with a chill-on.

In vain,

Amy telegraphed the word talk,

Tried to draw her out,

And amissed her covert hoax with her foot.

Jo sat as if blindly unconscious of it all,

With deportment like Maude's face,

Icily regular,

Splendidly null.

What a haughty,

Uninteresting creature that oldest Miss March is,

Was the unfortunately audible remark of one of the ladies as the door closed upon their guests.

Jo laughed noiselessly all through the hall,

But Amy looked disgusted at the failure of her instruction,

And very naturally laid the blame upon Jo.

How could you mistake me so?

I merely meant you to be properly dignified and composed,

And you made yourself a perfect stockhead stone.

Try to be sociable as the lambs,

Gossip as other girls do,

And be interested in dress and quotations,

And whatever nonsense comes up.

They move in the best society,

Are valuable persons for us to know,

And I wouldn't fail to make a good impression there for anything.

I'll be agreeable.

I'll gossip and giggle,

And have horrors and raptures over any trifle you like.

I'd rather enjoy this,

And now I'll imitate what is called a charming girl.

I can do it,

For I have Mae Chester as a model,

And I'll groove upon her,

See if the lambs don't say what a lively,

Nice creature that Jo March is.

I can so relate to this part,

Whereas I wonder if she genuinely doesn't know what to say,

Or is she just making fun of Mrs.

Chester?

She doesn't really have that same kind of instinct for socializing,

And we can see that a bit with the next one,

Where she doesn't really have a sense of like,

Oh,

Is this okay to say or not?

It would be kind of different if the Stanley didn't like her,

But it seems like,

You know,

They were trying to tell Jo that they appreciate work,

Right?

I don't think it's that,

I mean,

For me,

I don't think it's that hard to engage in a conversation that way.

To an extent,

I also feel,

Jo's described as naughty,

So in a sense,

I do get a bit of a sense that she's making fun of the situation.

I think she does have a bit of social awkwardness,

Where she doesn't show what,

But also she's like,

Well,

If I can't be myself,

And I'm being told to be this way,

Then I'm just going to,

You know,

Default to looking like this.

Yeah,

And it happens later in this chapter,

Where there's this lady who gives her,

You know,

Good feedback on one of her stories,

And Jo thinks that it's a joke,

Right?

Or Jo shows that she doesn't really have the best,

What's the word,

Self-confidence?

Yeah.

Like,

She's like,

Oh,

I wrote this thing,

It's nothing.

Yeah,

Because there's several people,

Because like,

Clearly there's a lot of people around town,

They know that she's a writer.

They appreciate her work,

Is that she just kind of doesn't know how to react to compliments.

Some of these people,

They clearly are like,

First,

Too much fans.

She doesn't really know how to react to that.

I guess even me as a reader,

I'll be,

Even if,

Just,

You know,

Talk more.

Jo,

You'll see.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It's not a small thing to publish,

And just have your neighbors just be like,

Wow,

Your writing is amazing.

I read it in this periodical,

And I'm like,

This is massive.

Why aren't you taking the compliment?

People a lot of times say that Beth is the one who is socially awkward,

But Jo is just as much socially awkward.

Yeah,

She can't read the room.

There's this theory that Liz and Al might have had a bipolar disorder.

I kind of see the same here,

Because when you have bipolar disorder,

Your mood changes rapidly fast,

And you can't always read social signs or other people's expressions.

Maybe there's something going on.

I mean,

She doesn't really have the sort of manic cases or manic episodes that bipolar disorder,

I feel like,

Is characterized by.

What Jo reminds me of in general is kind of like nerds that sometimes,

Nerdy people I meet at tabletop RPG sessions or gameplay where they are smart people.

They are not without virtue in their own way,

But just really can't read the room,

Really don't understand these things.

And you try to be like,

Oh,

Hey,

I really liked that thing.

And they're just like,

Oh,

Really?

And then they took where they know how to take the phrase.

No,

I mean,

The bipolar theory,

It's interesting that from what I know of it,

I'm not certain.

I think it has like,

When you have this maniac season,

That's when you work night and day on certain projects.

And I know that Luz and Alba have these periods when she might write day and night and then would be depressed for the next two weeks and then have another episode of writing day and night.

Jo is not exactly like that,

But she has these moments when she writes and gets into this loop of writing.

Yeah,

No,

She is described as having these really long periods of writing.

Maybe there's something to it.

You know,

In the 19th century,

They wouldn't have these medical terms for that.

Oh yeah,

No,

No.

That was something interesting to think about.

Waiting for a pause when they might rush in and rescue her.

So situated,

She was proudest to Jet Jo,

Who seemed possessed by a spirit of midship and gawked away as volubly as the old lady.

A cloud of heads gathered about her and Amy strayed her ears to hear what was going on.

For broken sentences filled her with alarm.

Proud eyes and oblivious hands tormented her with curiosity and frequent peals of laughter meant her right to share the fun.

One may imagine her suffering on overhearing fragments of this sort of conversation.

She writes splendidly.

Who taught her?

No one.

She used to practice mounting,

Holding the reins and sitting straight on an old saddle in a tree.

Now she writes anything for she don't know what fear is and the stable man lets her have horses cheap because she trains them to carry lady so well.

She has such a passion for it.

I often tell her if everything else fails,

She can be a pretty horsebreaker and get her living soul.

At this awful speech,

Amy contained herself with difficulty for the impression was being given that she was rather a fast young lady which was her special aversion.

But what could she do?

For the old lady was in the middle of her story and long before it was done,

She was off again,

Making more troll revelations and committing still more fearful blunders.

Yes,

Amy was in despair that day for all the good beasts were gone and of three left.

One was lame,

One blind and the other so bulky that you had to put dirt in his mouth before he would start.

Nice animal for pleasure party,

Wasn't it?

Which did she choose?

Asked one of the laughing gentlemen who enjoyed the subject.

None of them.

She heard of a young horse at the farmhouse over the river and thought a lady had never ridden him.

She resulted right because he was handsome and spirited.

Her struggles were really pathetic.

There was no one to bring the horse to the saddle,

So she took the saddle to the horse.

My dear creature,

She actually rode it over the river,

Put it on her head and marched up to the barn to the utter amazement of the old man.

Did she ride the horse?

Of course she did and had a capital time.

I expected to see her brought home in fragments,

But she managed him perfectly and was the life of the party.

Well,

I call that lucky.

A young Mr.

Lamb turned an approving glance upon Amy,

Wondering what his mother would be saying to make the girl look so red and uncomfortable.

Oh man.

I think what's interesting,

First off,

Is that we don't really have a confirmation of whether the story is true or not.

I think there has to be some elevated truth to it because like Joe knows it and Joe wasn't there.

Seeing a different dimension of Amy through Joe,

Which she is really trying hard to not show people.

And also I think it's a different aspect of her that we haven't seen either because we don't get that.

We don't get the story firsthand.

That is true.

I think she portrays Amy as this wild girl.

And these young men are amazed that Amy has this side of her,

True heart.

But then Amy is like,

Don't tell that.

She couldn't tell that story.

Yeah.

It's an interesting parallel between Amy breaking horses and Joe being kind of like a horse.

Oh yeah.

And I think she kind of had almost like a masculine description of Amy here.

Like she saddled the horse.

She took this big saddle,

This little girl,

And then saddled this big piece.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's interesting that Amy somehow takes this initiative because,

I mean,

We never see Joe taking this kind of initiative to ride horses.

I don't think anything that she's ever done.

Despite her being supposedly the more masculine person.

But now we have this very masculine portrayal of Amy somehow being able to break horses,

Which is no small thing.

If you were learning to ride,

That's one thing.

But to actually be able to train horses,

That's just a whole other level of skill and control.

I think in the middle of the month,

There's this scene where Laurie is trying to tame this white horse.

And then Dan,

One of the students,

He's really the one who manages to tame the horse in the end.

Maybe there's a parallel between Laurie and Amy here.

I don't know.

But it's interesting.

There is kind of a parallel of Amy somehow being able to take these sort of uncontrollable people or just kind of people just don't know what to do with themselves.

And then just being like,

OK,

You will do this and you will do it this way.

And then everything's going to be fine.

And of course,

And that just really works out for her.

And it just seems to,

Whether it be like an animal or even a sort of unruly human being,

It just seems to work out for her.

Yeah.

That is one of the things that most Amy fans like about Amy.

Like it's the trait that a lot of people admire in her.

It is a really,

Really,

Really interesting dimension of Amy.

And also we can see how she's really grown up from in the first half of the novel,

Whereas in Barnett,

Because I don't know if you could even picture younger Amy doing anything of the sort,

Which I was young and perhaps didn't have as much agency.

But now she's just kind of free to take her own initiative to just ride horses.

And apparently has enough of a good relationship with the stable man to just have the horses whenever she wants.

And also she just,

Yeah,

No.

And then she just kind of goes and takes a saddle to another horse that she just heard about.

Like there's just the,

Like literally she's like,

Yeah,

No,

None of these horses are going to do.

I'm just going to go and go to this other horse and go to the corn to ride this other one.

And I think it's funny because when Joy's speaking about Amy here,

It's like she admires her for really controlling this horse.

But then Amy thinks the opposite.

It's funny because the things that Joy admires in Amy is really just this thing that we are talking about here.

That she has this ability to control these horses and these people.

Joy thinks it's a great thing,

But then Amy doesn't want her to tell that story.

Yeah,

Because she wants to control her image.

Yeah,

And well,

Because everyone else is responding well to the story.

I mean,

A lot of people really like the story as well.

So I guess she didn't want to be a fast young lady.

But everyone's like,

No,

This is awesome.

What an amazing person.

Joy definitely admires Amy even if this story was made up.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It just kind of stands out from everything else.

We literally don't have a confirmation about whether it's true or not.

And Amy herself doesn't even say like,

Oh,

You said this really not true thing.

Yeah,

It might well be true.

I can easily imagine this to happen.

Maybe not exactly like that,

But something similar.

We know that Amy liked horses and she liked writing.

Yeah,

Yeah.

No,

I mean,

Is it possible that Jo was telling an exaggerated version of something that actually happened?

I can believe that.

She was still rudder and more uncomfortable a moment after,

When a sudden turn in the conversation introduced the subject of dress.

One of the young ladies asked Jo where she got the pretty drab hat she wore to the picnic.

And stupid Jo,

Instead of mentioning the place where it was bought two years ago,

Must need to answer with unnecessary frankness.

Oh,

Amy painted it.

You can't buy those soft shades,

So we paint ours any color we like.

It's a great comfort to have an artistic sister.

Isn't that an original idea,

Cried Miss Lem,

Who found Jo great fun.

That's nothing compared to some of her brilliant performances.

There's nothing the child can't do.

Why,

She wanted a pair of blue boots for Sally's party,

So she just painted her soiled white ones the loveliest shade of sky blue you ever saw.

And they looked exactly like satin,

Added Jo,

With an air of pride in her sister's accomplishments that exasperated Amy till she felt that it would be a relief to throw her card case at her.

We read a story of yours the other day and enjoyed it very much,

Observed the elder Miss Lem,

Wishing to compliment the literary lady who did not look the character just then,

It must be confessed.

Any mention of her works always had a bad effect upon Jo,

Who either grew rigid and looked offended or changed the subject with a brusque remark,

As now.

Sorry you could find nothing better to read.

I write that rubbish because it sells and ordinary people like it.

Are you going to New York this winter?

As Miss Lem had enjoyed the story,

The speech was not exactly grateful or complimentary.

The minute it was made,

Jo saw her mistake,

But fearing to make the matter worse,

Suddenly remembered that it was for her to make the first move toward departure and did so with an abruptness that left three people with half-finished sentences in their mouths.

Amy,

We must go.

Good- Goodbye,

Dear.

Do come and see us.

We are pining for a visit.

I don't dare to ask you,

Miss Lem,

But if you should come,

I don't think I shall have the heart to send you away.

Jo said this with a drawl imitation of Mae Chester's gushing style that Amy got out of the room as rapidly as possible,

Feeling a strong desire to laugh and cry at the same time.

So did I do that well?

Asked Jo with a satisfied air as they walked away.

Nothing could have been worse,

Was Amy's crushing reply.

What possessed you to tell those stories about my saddle and the hats and boots and all the rest of it?

Why,

It's funny and it amuses people.

They know we are poor,

So it's no use pretending that we have grooms,

Five,

Three,

Or four hats a season and have things as easy and fine as they do.

You needn't go and tell them about our little shifts and expose our poverty in that perfectly unnecessary way.

You haven't a bit of proper pride and will never learn when to hold your tongue and when to speak,

Said Amy despairingly.

Poor Jo looked abashed and silently chafed the end of her snows with a stiff handkerchief as if performing a penance for her misdemeanors.

Okay,

So I think,

So we were talking earlier about whether the story about the saddle is true.

It's still not confirmed,

But clearly Jo is telling a tall tale about the hats and the shoes and such.

Yeah,

She does like to exaggerate stuff about her sister.

You don't think she baited the shoes?

Uh,

So,

Okay.

So the shoes,

I think I can believe,

But I think we,

I think,

What was it?

She,

She says the hat that she wore,

Someone asked Jo where she got the hat and then Jo just says,

Oh,

Amy painted it where Amy is just like,

You literally bought the hat.

You literally bought the hat this one place two years ago.

And then,

Of course,

Then as she,

Then she kind of decides to bring Amy into the conversation.

So yeah,

No,

We have like a kind of combination of not quite true,

Maybe could be true type stories.

And so clearly other people think Jo is super,

Super awesome and fun.

And that Amy is super awesome and fun.

Because Jo was just like,

Well,

Let's just own it.

I mean,

We,

Um,

We do do these things.

We do paint stuff when we want it.

Well,

We can't get the color.

So why not?

What's wrong with,

And then Amy just kind of is like,

Well,

We don't have to,

I guess to her,

She's just like,

Oh,

The fact that we have to do this thing is just so,

It's just such an indignity.

Whereas Jo is kind of like,

No,

It's just like,

It's a thing that poor people happen to do.

But like,

You know,

It's,

But it's also fun.

It doesn't have to reflect on us being poor.

It just is a fun story.

And,

But of course,

Amy doesn't see it that way.

Yeah.

And it's said here now,

Proud she's,

That Amy has this artistic talent,

But she also exaggerates that artistic talent a little bit.

And then we have this case with Ms.

Lab,

And I feel really bad for her.

Like we talked about this before,

That when Jo starts to write these stories and sends them to these magazines,

She calls them trash because they are sensational.

So I think this is,

Once again,

This sort of slowly developing to become a better writer and see what kind of stories are her own style and what is she copying for other writers,

Seeing her own development.

Maybe these are not the stories that she's that proud,

But still,

If somebody gives you a compliment,

I think she should embrace that.

Yes.

Yes.

I agree.

She shouldn't have done that,

I think.

Because then you also insult the taste of the person you're talking to.

She's literally implying like,

Ms.

Lab is an ordinary person who just doesn't know any better.

That's not great.

And I love that she's just like,

Oh,

I only write it so that ordinary people will like it.

And then she just goes,

Are you going to New York this winter?

And like with this complete NASA choir,

This completely unrelated remark,

It just kind of came popping off of things.

I find it so funny that she does that.

It's funny because Susan Hale,

She didn't really have the highest regards when it came to real women.

These things are based on her real life.

But then I think she probably put it that she has that code,

Little woman being this moralistic babble that she doesn't want to write.

I have this podcast about this moralistic babble.

I think artists themselves are biggest critics of their own works.

Yeah,

No,

I think Jo does hold herself internally to a really high standard.

Well,

We talk about this a lot,

How Fredrick encourages her to take herself as seriously as a writer.

This is one of those times when she calls her stories rubbish.

She still has a long way to get there.

She does.

And we know that she improves more over time.

But I think as she is,

She's also suffering a little bit from imposter syndrome,

Where he feels like she doesn't really deserve it.

I think for me at the moment,

Just like as a PhD student,

Where people are like,

Oh,

Wow,

Your work is so cool.

And it's so awesome.

I'm just like,

No,

My experiments are actually crap.

And I haven't done this or that with my,

It's not the word,

Theoretical framework isn't great.

So I kind of,

I do relate to what she's going through internally,

Where she's just like,

No,

No,

It's not.

It's really not that great.

And so it's fine.

And I think for me,

Just kind of with my Chinese cultural background,

This is literally what you do when someone praises your stuff.

Like you would,

Maybe you would feel proud about it inside,

But then you would be like,

Oh,

No,

It's really,

It's awful.

It's not actually,

That's,

No,

It's,

See,

It is the Chinese way of speaking.

Otherwise it's just like,

No,

It's not good at all.

No,

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

So I'm kind of an interesting cultural moment reading this.

But of course,

I think in that context,

She absolutely should take the praise.

You don't have to say anything else.

Sometimes,

Even though I am super tired and I had a horrible day,

I still try to reply the comments that this podcast gets.

At some point when you start,

You're like super excited and then you do it for a while and then you sort of lose your enthusiasm.

But you just have to keep going,

You know?

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

The YouTube channel on your field,

That's my end as well.

People who don't have a YouTube channel don't know how much work that takes.

It's so much easier for me to make a podcast than cool stuff on YouTube.

Oh my God,

Don't get me started.

Don't get me started on the algorithm.

I mean,

This is way off topic,

But like why,

You may have noticed I've not been posting a lot of videos recently just because school kind of got in the way because it is.

.

.

And I explained to people,

It's both a.

.

.

It's not just the kind of actual effort of editing and filming.

It's a mental effort as well to make good quality material,

To make good quality content.

I would say pre-starting my university program,

I mean,

For something like,

Say,

My Little Women video,

Which,

You know,

You and I met because of.

.

.

Or my Bits of War video.

I would say the research took so much time and the writing was actually that was some of the most effort-intensive stuff I ever did for those videos.

And so I guess people don't really understand that kind of effort versus what actually comes out.

And I think,

You know,

Jo probably is a very well-read person.

And of course,

Given who this family.

.

.

We know who this family is.

They're intellectuals.

And Jo probably has read a lot of really good work.

And,

You know,

She probably gets a lot of inspiration from books that she's been exposed to,

But probably she feels that she doesn't quite measure up to those writers If she's at this point where she's comparing herself to Goethe,

That's not somebody who she should be comparing herself to.

Yeah,

No,

No.

Well,

Because I mean,

She and Goethe are coming from such different places,

Right?

I mean,

It's good to be inspired by Goethe,

But like,

You know,

I don't know if she feels that she should be Goethe.

We know that she doesn't,

But they wouldn't produce the same work or the same experiences.

I wonder,

Was it like before this chapter,

The one where she writes her first book that we discussed earlier.

And then there's the moment where she says that she wishes that she would have this person who would give her unbiased critique,

Which we know is fleeting.

At this point,

She doesn't really have any kind of person to teach her about literature.

Yeah,

I understand from Jo's perspective that like,

You know,

So what if Miss Lam likes my story and likes my novel?

Like,

You know,

It's just not,

They're not people that she necessarily respects and enough to be like,

Okay,

This is the standard that you should.

Because like,

They don't really go off.

It's not like they offer her much critique.

They're just,

Oh,

Yeah,

Your novel's sensational.

They're not very constructive with what they say.

I'm ending,

In a sense,

That's why she doesn't know how to take compliments on her work.

It's not really,

I don't think that's really a language that she understands.

How shall I behave here?

She asked as they approached the third mansion.

Just as you please.

I wash my hands of you,

Was Amy's short answer.

Then I'll enjoy myself.

The boys are at home and we'll have a comfortable time.

Goodness knows I need a little change for elegance.

Has had a bad effect upon my constitution,

Returned Jo,

Roughly being disturbed by her failure to suit.

An enthusiastic welcome from three big boys and several pretty children sweetly suited her rougher feelings and leaving Amy to entertain the hostess and Mr.

Tudor,

Who happened to be calling likewise,

Jo devoted herself to the young folks and found the change refreshing.

She listened to college stories with deep interest,

Caressed pointers and boodles without a murmur,

Agreed heartily that swung round was a brick,

Regardless of the improper form of praise.

And when one lad proposed a visit to his turtle tank,

She wept with alacrity,

Which caused Mama to smile upon her after the motherly lady sat on the cap,

Which was left in a ruinous condition by video hogs,

Fair like but affectionate and dearer to her than most faultless couture from the hands of an inspired French woman.

Leaving her sister to her own devices,

Amy proceeded to enjoy herself to her heart's content.

Mr.

Tudor's uncle had married an English lady who was third cousin to a living Lord and Amy regarded the whole family with great respect for in spite of her American birth and breeding,

She possessed that reverence for titles which hones the best of us,

That unacknowledged loyalty to the early faith in kings which set the most democratic nation under the sun in a firmament at the coming of royal yellow-haired laddie some years ago,

Which still has something to do with the love the young country bears the old,

Like that of a big son for an imprecious little mother who hold him while she could and let him go with a farewell,

Scolding when he rebelled,

But even the satisfaction of talking with a distant connection of the British nobility did not render Amy forgetful of time and when the proper number of minutes had passed,

She reluctantly tore herself from this aristocratic society and looked about for Jo,

Fervently hoping that her incorrigible sister would not be found in any position which should bring disgrace upon the name of March.

It might have been worse,

But Amy considered it bad,

For Jo sat on the grass with a dengabit of boys about her and a dirty footed dog reposing on the skirt of her stage and a festival dress as she related one of Laurie's pranks to her admiring audience.

One small child was porting turtles with Amy's cherished parasol and a second was eating gingerbread over Jo's best bonnet and a third playing ball with her gloves,

But all were enjoying themselves and when Jo collected her damaged property to go,

Her escort accompanied her,

Begging her to come again and it was such fun to hear about Laurie's locks.

Capital boys,

Aren't they?

I feel quite young and brisk again,

After that said Jo,

Strolling along with her hands behind her,

Partly from habit,

Partly concealed with a scattered parasol.

Why do you always avoid Mr.

Tudor?

Asked Amy wisely,

Refraining from any comment upon Jo's hilabilated appearance.

Don't like him,

He puts on airs,

Snobs his sisters,

Worries his father and don't speak respectfully of his mother.

Laurie says he is fast and I don't consider him a desirable acquaintance,

So I left him alone.

You might treat him civilly at least,

You gave him a cool nod and just now you bowed and smiled in the politest way to Tommy Chamberlain,

Whose father keeps a grocery store.

If he had just reversed the nod and the bow,

It would have been right,

Said Amy reprovingly.

No,

It wouldn't,

Richard perceived Jo.

I neither like,

Respect,

Nor admire Tudor,

Though his grandfather's uncle's nephew's niece was third cousin to a lord.

Tommy is poor and bashful and good and very clever,

I didn't wealth him and like to show that I do,

For he is a gentleman in spite of the brown paper past.

Anna thinks Ivy is fine as they Jo.

Hey,

So there's a lot to unpack.

Here's the thing,

I think Jo is actually a big hit with a lot of people that we're coming across,

Like she,

I don't think she's actually giving a bad impression to everybody.

So clearly people really do enjoy her company,

She just kind of goes about it a different way.

It says that she's listening to college stories and so I think these,

She's talking with some of the more,

Maybe teenage boys,

Teenage boys.

Pretty boys,

A pretty teacher.

Yeah,

And several children.

Yeah,

So she gets along with the young men and likes playing with the kids and even some of the bolder boys,

They're just like,

Wow,

We love hearing about your amazing stories.

And of course,

There's that passage that we were talking about earlier,

Which about basically the American reverence for nobility,

Because they seem to be talking about a very specific event here,

Because there seems to have been some sort of royal birth that's occurred,

Because it says some years ago,

But I don't know if she's talking about something specific here or is just saying,

Oh,

Some years ago,

Meaning like historically.

Interesting,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Because I,

So basically when you read that passage,

It's like,

Oh,

Well,

Wait,

Who was the monarch at the time?

So Queen Victoria would have been Queen of England still,

But what sort of royal birth would we have been talking about theoretically?

Because sometimes like maybe it's just like the current British royal family,

Like if you were to refer to it to either the wedding or the birth of one of the kids,

Maybe you would know about it.

Maybe it was a big event.

Is Louisa talking about something specific,

But I wasn't clear.

I don't know.

In Anne of Green Gables,

There are some references to Queen Victoria.

They do have lots of references to Queen Victoria in the 19th century books.

Because I can watch like how the current queen is despite the status quo and the monarch,

I mean,

Probably she was very similar,

Probably had the same kind of status and renown in society that the current queen does now.

But it's interesting putting ourselves back into that mindset of being like,

Okay,

Well,

This is when people would have been reading this book and this would have been what they had in mind.

It's an interesting description,

That of a big son for an imperious little mother,

Because Queen Victoria was a small woman,

Right?

Who had a few sons,

Who held them while she could and I mean,

This is a very interesting description of the American Revolution,

Because like it says,

Let him go with a farewell scolding when he rebelled.

This kind of is a bit of a forgetfulness about the war of 1812,

Because I know Britain tried to get America back.

I think the White House actually burned at one point and we have a very famous story about Dolly Madison taking George Washington's painting with her.

It's a bit of a very simplistic picture of how America got its independence from the UK.

I think it was an interesting section for Louise that just kind of wax poetical,

Of a wax poetic about America's reverence for the.

.

.

I'm just like,

You're going on a tangent here.

You're talking about social calls,

But now you're just kind of talking a lot about royalty.

This is super interesting.

Yeah,

Right?

I mean,

You know more about the American history than I do.

This chapter has so many parallels and these sort of tangents that I haven't thought before.

Yeah,

Yeah.

No,

I mean,

I started noticing them myself rereading this chapter.

And so I think we do forget that this novel is very much a product of its time,

Era and country.

It's universal,

Of course,

In many ways,

But this is one of the passages that's just like,

This is written by an author in a new country,

Growing up in this new,

New country.

I mean,

We recall America wasn't even independent for that long at the time that this book was written.

Still a relatively quite new country.

So you would still kind of see.

.

.

I mean,

I would say even now Americans would still have that kind of reverence for the British.

It still has that kind of consciousness because,

You know,

The American Revolution is such a big part of our mindset and the way we think about who we are and the foundation of the country.

And then,

Of course,

Now Elisa is now reminding us of where we came from,

That essentially we came out of a country that had monarchy,

That had royalty.

This is where we come from.

Yeah,

And despite us wanting to go against our so-called motherland,

We still look back on it with some kind of nostalgia,

Which I think has not quite gone away to this day.

It's also because the Victorian England,

It was a very powerful force.

Yeah,

It was still a big empire.

Empire,

Yeah.

Like somebody commented on Tambril how in Jane Austen's books,

They struggle to enjoy them fully because there's so many references to imperialism in Sense and Sensibility,

When Marian falls in love with Captain Brandon.

And then in Persuasion,

There's the other captain and they are all sort of workers of the imperialistic England.

And this person was from India or some other country that used to be ruled by Queen Victoria.

So they kind of struggle to enjoy Jane Austen's work fully,

Which I understand.

And I think it's so interesting to read Little Woman because I pay a lot of attention to these connections about Germany because that's what I've been studying a lot and how Usa May Alcott,

She sort of bypasses her English ancestry and then almost replaces that with German culture because she has such a great fondness for the German culture.

And she really acknowledges British ancestry,

History.

When I read Rosenblum,

Then it's not so much about the German culture.

There are lots of mentions how the Campbells came from Scotland and they were this mighty family and now they are a mighty family in America.

There's lots of romanticization of Europe,

Which I think was very common at the time.

It's the same with Laurie.

He's from Italy and there's this moment when Meg and Amy really romanticize that he's from Italy.

I think it's a really fascinating passage.

And I love that it's still,

It seems like this very sort of loving,

Familial picture of the revolution.

It's just like,

Well,

Lots of people died,

Right?

Isn't that the whole encounter?

It was not an easy party,

But of course that is sort of the little kids version of the American revolution.

Yeah,

And Alcott herself was in the war as a nurse.

So the experiences couldn't have been pleasant in any way.

Yeah,

No,

She understands what the cost of war is.

So she knows.

So I think it's interesting,

This choice of words.

Partially,

I wonder if,

Because America was so recently brought back together,

Because we've just gone through the civil war at this point.

America as a country has almost fallen apart.

And I think maybe because America is still very much in an experimental place.

We,

In some ways,

Some people were looking back on Europe and on England and seeing them as places of stability.

It's like,

Look,

A few people,

They've not really gone through much.

Well,

It's not true.

But I mean,

Because I think France has gone through a revolution at this point.

They definitely have,

England definitely had its own civil war,

But somehow over here,

But separated by an ocean.

Americans perhaps didn't quite have that long sense of history of like,

Oh,

All these countries have fallen.

They look so stable and old and antiquated and have such deep histories compared to us.

That's a speculation on my part.

I think that's true,

Especially when it comes to this admiration for German and then culture in England.

She kind of sees these certain countries as these cradles of culture,

Even more than like Greece or ancient Rome.

It's these countries where her favorite literature comes from and her favorite artists like Goethe and Sturm und Rang.

Yeah,

Of course.

Which Sturm und Rang,

Was it,

This would have been around the Romantic era because like way before this.

And I think that's important because during the 19th century,

When there was the Romantic movement in Europe,

A lot of the artists,

They really went back their sort of mythical past to create this art that was inspired by their myths and their legends.

Goethe,

He took elements from German sagas.

Here in Finland,

When the country became independent in the beginning of 20th century,

But in the 19th century,

There was this huge movement in the arts where it was all about,

Let's make Finland this great nation with all these poems and art and paintings that sort of support this mythical narrative of our mythical past.

So it was used as a way to become more united as a country.

And this happened pretty much in every European country in the 19th century.

Which leads us into a bit of nationalism in the next century,

But never yet.

Unfortunately.

Yeah,

Unfortunately,

Yes.

But yeah,

That is very interesting.

There is also a desire for that kind of mythical past,

Of course,

For a lot of Americans.

This is a very interesting topic on European nostalgia and through literature and culture and also through class,

Which I think that we acknowledged earlier.

So Amy looks up to these people who have even any,

It's not even like,

Oh,

Mr.

Tudor came from England.

It's like,

He married an English lady and she was a third cousin.

That's not,

It's not even like a close,

Well,

Whatever.

It's not that close of a connection.

And so,

But then Amy's like,

Oh my God,

This entire family.

I respect this entire family because they had one lady from England who was kind of like this,

How does Joe say it?

Was a third cousin.

Grandfather's uncle's nephew's niece was a third cousin to a lord.

So,

And so then Amy just kind of looks at this and projects that onto the entire family.

And so,

No,

I find that really hilarious.

And then,

And she's just like,

No,

Joe,

Like you need to respect this family.

And then Joe's just like,

No,

I mean,

This person who runs a grocery shop,

Why should I not respect him a bit more if I like that person better?

And their last name is Tudor.

I'm like,

Interesting.

Right?

And so we have these people who have a name from a English dynasty long past,

But they still have that kind of cultural coding.

It kind of rings the same bells.

So like,

It feels very deliberate.

Fascinating.

If Amy would be with us today,

Would she be a big fan of British royal family?

I don't know,

But.

Maybe.

Maybe.

There are a lot of people who are.

For different people,

Even if they're not royalist necessarily,

I mean,

They'll follow every bit of news about the royal family.

They'll read all the gossip.

I think for me,

Myself,

I find royal families in general quite fascinating in their sort of family structure and especially how this family in particular has adapted so much for today.

British monarchical history is so full of family drama,

Right?

And that's,

Of course,

Always very interesting to read about.

And I don't know,

Maybe today,

Would that connection as a third cousin to a lord still be that impressive?

I don't know.

She's just like,

Oh yeah,

No,

He has this wife who is just kind of tangentially related to peerage.

Like in Downton Abbey,

Being the third cousin to a lord is just sort of like,

Okay,

Maybe some sort of tenuous connection.

But I guess that's the closest proximity she can personally get to aristocracy.

She's very ashamed that she's poor.

Maybe she kind of also wishes that they would have some kind of fascinating aristocratic family history.

Maybe this also explains the connection to Aunt Marge.

Because the way I saw it,

Like Aunt Marge is written to be the sister of Amy's father.

So Aunt Marge didn't start as rich.

She married rich.

It's not explained a lot about Uncle Marge.

Was he an aristocrat?

I have this headcanon that Uncle Marge was like a rich merchant.

We don't know.

I think Amy sees that for Aunt Marge,

Marrying rich was a good thing.

So she's not really afraid that idea that she has to marry rich.

I mean,

That idea is very familiar to her.

She's seen it happen.

Even if it's not necessarily marrying into aristocracy,

I think any bettering of social status,

I think is just better for her and better for her family.

And maybe because she's so family oriented,

Having one person bring prestige to everybody around them is not a strange idea to her.

Even if someone just kind of has a very distant relation,

Then she's like,

No,

That's kind of what I should be doing.

I should be getting connected with someone who can actually bring prestige,

Even though it's not quite the same thing.

And the guy who Amy was dating,

Fred,

Fred Long,

Didn't he have aristocratic background?

Yeah,

I recall that he did.

Yeah,

I mean,

He's supposed to be,

You know,

Pretty aristocratic and pretty rich.

Yeah,

I think he was what she was aspiring to.

So Amy could have actually become a lady.

I don't know.

Maybe she could have had a much higher status than the tutors.

It feels so weird saying than the tutors,

Because I keep saying,

The tutors,

And I keep thinking about the actual royal family.

Thank you so much for listening.

Emily and I continue our chat next time.

Take care and make good choices.

Bye.