Little Women Podcast: Demisexuality In Little Women

In this episode, Christina and I are chatting about her story project which centres heavily on the idea of Jo March being a demisexual and we are also discussing the possibility of Alcott herself being demi. I am also answering questions regarding the trans-LMA theory and how it´s not as simple as it seems (like anything about her would be).

Transcript

When you have this fanfiction series of the modern day, Little Woman, I enjoy a few other people and you write about trans-retic being demisexuals. Would you like to share the listeners what a demisexual is? I identify myself as somewhere in the demisexual area and I always need to explain it to people. The best way I can someone describe it, Asexual is when you have no sexual desire at all and if you're allosexual it means you can have it just by the drop of a hat pretty much. But the best way I saw someone describe it is for someone who is demisexual is I'm asexual until I'm not. And the moment when you're not is when you develop a romantic attraction towards someone. And I understand some people who have that sort of wish fulfillment of wanting certain characters to be LGBT, Like I've seen a lot of people say, Will say that Joe is trans but you know and whatnot. But it's surprising when people say like you know I think Joe is aro-ace meaning aromantic and asexual and I'm like I feel like Joe is more of the demiromantic which is you don't develop a romantic attraction until you really get to know them or having a romantic interest in someone until you truly get to know someone. Which is like you know for some people it'd be like you just met this person talked to them for five minutes want to go on a date and they're like all right fine. A demiromantic needs time of development in order for you to for them to be kind of like you know what I think I might want to date you. But I think I see her as a demiromantic and a demisexual and Friedrich as a demisexual because these two and it's mentioned in the under the umbrella scene where he says first love is the best and she agrees meaning that the both of them have been each other's first loves. So I definitely catch some of those sort of vibes in that sense of like the fact that they haven't really seemed to have found much of an interest in other people in accepting each other and I feel like as personally a demisexual like for the longest time I was like now it like I didn't know why I was like didn't have that same interest as like the other kids when they were developing and all that and I'm like oh now it makes sense like why I don't. I almost feel like Jo has that like she can't find herself having that with Laurie. One of these days I think I will revamp that series but I sort of have like this moment where in the modern day sense she tells Laurie like if it hasn't happened by now it's never gonna happen and if all these years I have been with you and have not felt even remotely romantic attraction for you it's just not gonna happen. The fact that you know she doesn't even think about that with Laurie and blushes at the idea of it with Friedrich I think is very telling. So I think it's a shame that people sort of miss on that and in some ways I feel like incorrectly like you know well she's a lesbian because she doesn't want to get married and it's like that's not the reason why she doesn't want to get married to anyone. It's not because she's a lesbian it's because other things that she you know has to relearn over time and she definitely as we sort of joke she definitely wants Friedrich's babies like she wants like you said she wants a family of her own and at one point it was after Jo gets Plumfield like she is already fantasizing of not only a school for kids to come in but she's already fantasizing a family with Friedrich and how that's gonna be so like this girl wants his babies and gets all flustered is like do I look all right like oh my goodness like you know we kissed and all that kind of stuff. I feel like that most people just don't it's because I think they see movie versions of it and they sort of see it in this way like you know I guess if it's not Laurie then let her be a lesbian or let her be aro ace but it's like she can still we can still have an LGBT character in Jo but still let it be with Friedrich. There's not a wrong answer here. She can we can have both and I feel like there's contextually evidence of that as I kind of had mentioned earlier just comparing how Jo is with Friedrich versus Jo with Laurie. If that if I ever could get a chance to like make my own version I would make that be pretty clear like in my vision my modern day verse would be very clear like no Jo and Friedrich are Demi's and they are totally for each other so yeah that's sort of my personal headcanon which I've seen quite a few people sort of hop on board with that with that idea which I'm quite pleased with because I think one I think not only is it true to the character I think people don't recognize or fully like remember like demisexual is a thing. I think it's just like people kind of think you either want to or not and it's like well here's the middle ground the gray area gray sexual and that doesn't make them any less valid or invalid like that it's still a very valid thing to be a demi whether it's demiromantic or demisexual so it makes me happy to see that there's sort of this rise in people seeing like yeah you know that makes a lot more sense and I'm like good we're on the same page. Well I've done research on the Victorian idea of love what love meant for people in the 19th century I actually think demisexuality in modern standards would be closest to that because there is this pop culture idea of love where you have sort of separated sex from law and then the transcendentalist the Victorian people they saw love as almost like a spiritual experience you could not separate love from sex so there were people who did that back then but a romantic love which leads on to marriage you would not separate the two so I think demisexuality sometimes it's seen almost as a movement against this sort of sexualization of media or the way we are surrounded by sexual images these stories where sex and love is removed from one another when you fall in love with somebody you get into a higher spiritual sphere so I think demisexuality is connected to that type of idea that you are not against sex you just want to be with somebody who you feel emotional connection with that's the way I always read Posenfrelich's relationship. Like it's not necessary for them to have this fully blown romantic relationship but it just would be nice if they chose not to it's like that's great like you said it's more of what it is that connects them that way than it is what the sex is just kind of a nice bonus to a romantic relationship. Louisa Mayagua she did have older and younger male friends who she was attracted to but then she also had quite a clear idea what kind of relationship she wanted for herself it included that intellectual connection 2018 film modern version actually did that pretty well at least in that one I got the sense that you're afraid for demisexuals and I think the actors had pretty good chemistry. We see them developing a relationship like I always just kind of remember the scene in the theater when he takes her hand and she just kind of looks at him like oh oh what is this feeling like oh crap like she's not like you know she's like what is this I feel something yeah I definitely get that feeling that it's probably the one version I feel like is the closest that kind of sense like you said that they're both demis and that they're more interested in what their how their relationship develops then you know in any other way emotionally. I really like that that version when it comes to children pretty pretty prolific. Yeah I was very pleasantly surprised by that version like because sometimes modern day versions it can be difficult in regards to how do they translate certain things that happened back then like how do you how do you still get that same sense of a debutante ball like what would be the modern day equivalent it's like oh well be smart about it it doesn't exactly have to be the same essence you just need a big party what's a big party prom but they managed to do very well quite a lot of things in the story in the sort of canon verse that uh joe cuts her hair to get money for her father and it's like well how do you still get that same feeling she cuts it to support beth who gets I think it's like leukemia in that version so you still get that same sense of like oh she cut her hair for a noble cause but in this case the noble cause is for beth so it still has that same feeling of what joe does and I know that some people like kind of get upset like I saw someone get upset that it wasn't the role like the ice skating but that it was a horse what that would be me to almost like get herself like get seriously harmed and I'm like what well first of all I don't think that really was that bad of a change like honestly and and it makes sense because nowadays there isn't a lot of those sort of open lakes for people to go ice skating there's more ice skating rinks available for the public whereas with like if you're riding a horse there is a danger of if you go a little too fast the horse suddenly stops when you're supposed to jump over a thing and you fall off like I think that's a very fair way of translating it but I didn't know I went into with low expectations because I didn't want to get my hopes up and I walked out being like this is top three I'll say of favorite adaptations honestly well people can really tell how much demisexuals we are because it's so absurd to us when people are complaining about the actors looks yes when I posted some of the clips of the 2018 film to my youtube channel and people were just saying how close Ian Bowen is I'm not saying he's not gorgeous but can we talk about something else like their relationship hopefully maybe this helps people to understand what a demisexual is yeah Ian Bowen is he's very handsome but yeah there's so much more in that movie same with Rossano Brasi in the 1949 film like people just say oh he's gorgeous can we talk about his and Josh's relationship in this movie that's why I posted this clip can we talk about the fact that he pretty much is like I think you are amazing writer and I support you you go girl like yeah behind that pretty face there's a honestly I say Friedrich is a feminist icon honestly like he is he would definitely be that guy that is just like that's my wife like you know and be 100% proud it's a glory to sort of I think time to to get to that point but like Friedrich right off the bat is like women are awesome and I love on them but yeah I totally agree like you know everyone's like oh you know Lewis Garrow is you know probably the hands of miss Friedrich I'm like okay fine but is he going to be a good Friedrich and I think he was probably the highlight of that film I think he himself is a good actor but like talk about whether or not like is the relationship between Joe and Friedrich actually good or not why does it matter or like when people say like oh why that guy he looks way too old or he's not as attractive it's like see did you see that moment when like he just says I have nothing to give but a full heart and empty hands like like oh my god guys when you see people talk about like oh I love those like AC romance heroes who love someone but they want them to be happy like almost like a kernel Brandon type like here's Friedrich right there like he he doesn't think that he is deserving of Joe but he supports her and when he gets to Concord and he feels like there's maybe hope he's got a picture of Joe and he kisses it because he's like I'm so happy to see you again and I think there might be a chance like oh oh you know but no people want to talk about is he attractive or not and it's like the point here you go way over somebody posted on twitter that scene where in the 2017 series he comes and he has that poem with him I'm like this is my favorite scene in this whole series and then there are people commenting well he's not attractive I don't care I've been thinking about this a lot or the whole asexual conversation I think coming from the fact that I guess people should know that in the Victorian times sex was entirely censored because when I was reading this studies of everyday terror to my podcast he actually censored words like bedroom and bathroom and all the names of his love interest from his diaries sometimes you can see how he changed word devotion and worship to create admiration and listen to say some of the things might be lost when we don't pay attention the historical context and I think you can see that he will woman because in the chapter all alone there's this scene where the narrator says that don't do this because a lot of them hide their tragic romances behind their humble gowns or something like that she's talking about her lovers or this wish fulfillment that we have been discussing here I read quite a few people saying that oh I'm I'm like Joe I don't want to get married I just want to stay at home be with my my family and I'm like well that's not the book Joe because she does not want to only stay at home but she feels that she needs to take bed space and she needs to take care of her parents and be this like bird of the home and then she does that for a couple of days and she gets bored and she feels like this is not the life for me what I really want is to live my own life have a family and find somebody and that's when she gets this letter from Amy where she writes how happy she is with Laurie and then she feels really lonely and envious and happy it makes me upset that people misread the book so I will in this case they properly don't read the book if we want to understand little woman better we should not ignore these things that happen in the novel and it's funny when you said like oh I want to be just like Joe where I don't get married and I stay home I'm like that sounds closer to who Beth is rather than Joe like and yeah it's it's amazing how people sort of misinterpret and and I don't want to tell people exactly like I when people say things like I see Joe as being trans and wanting to be a boy and I'm like fine but like you're the reasoning you have behind it is that you think Joe acts like a boy because she truly wants to be a boy and that's not exactly how it goes in the story it's more of a wanting the freedom that a boy has and again as we mentioned earlier about you know sort of the internalized misogyny that she has about being a girl I don't want to be that person that says you're wrong but like on the other hand like the reasoning you have behind it is not true to what the story actually portrays these characters to be it can be a little tough. I think it's really sad because you know that whole chapter all alone it's really miserable I don't know anyone who can read that chapter and think that Joe just wants to be at home I can't really think of anyone who can read you know Amy's letter about Laurie and think that Joe envies Amy or Laurie she envies that sister is happy and married and then she herself is there at home trying to be something that she isn't and then she has that discussion with mommy and she says that well you know Joe it's okay if you want these other things there's this preface that moment when Joe is looking at Meg with a baby she says to her do you think I could do a good job at being a mom and Meg is like well it would be great you know you you would make a great mom. So yeah I agree I think some versions like the the girl with version made it seem like she's more jealous of Amy of being with Laurie and I'm like not at all not at all she's just more sad that there isn't a someone in her life really the same way that what whether it's Amy or Meg she's in a way jealous of them both not because of the men themselves but because there is no one for her. It was the same with Louisa May Alcott she writes in her journal how she envied Anna and Meg they were happily married she wasn't she was very lonely you can definitely see that in in Little Woman and I always thought it was really interesting because when I read May Alcott's biography it was mentioned that all the three sisters May and Anna and Louisa they had struggles fighting partners for themselves because they wanted to find somebody who would love them but also accept that they wanted to work or have a career. May wrote about her herself being lonely because she really struggled finding someone who could support her artist career then she fell in love with Ernest he supported her career and a good husband what I can tell. I think there's a lot about 19th century wrote these women feel lonely because they can't find somebody who supports their career and gives them unconditional love I think that's something that most people don't realize about real woman is that she wants to have a career and she also wants to combine that with family and love. And it wasn't the norm then like you know they were sort of expected to once you're married you're married that's being married is your job and this is I would going off of how I think with Alcott that translates to Joe which I sort of took into my own they want to be married they want to have someone but again between society telling them you know you can't you have to abide by these rules in order to find someone or being told you have to change in order to get this. It can be very depressing as I made a post and you did see it where I kind of went on to almost like a analysis of Joe and marriage I think she even as a teenager somewhere in the back of her head must have been like I do want to get married because I don't know like why not I want to be with someone that has the same interest but she never felt like it was for her because people told her it was not for her. I kind of compare that to how I felt growing up. I am like 4 foot 11 I'm curvy I if you had to try to pick a name I am plump I've got a belly and I've got you know breasts that are definitely bigger and hips and whatnot and growing up it was difficult to find clothes that were for me that was perfectly suited for me that I like because it was either the pants are too long and I got to roll them up or that dress is cute but it's meant for someone who is on the thinner side with a flat stomach and smaller breasts and it fits here but when you get to the hips it does not fit there. After a while I was just like you know what I'm just gonna say I don't care what I look like and I put like this sort of explanation of well if anybody really would like me they're gonna like me with it whether or not I dress this way but it's like I felt like the fashion industry didn't care how to dress me they didn't care whether or not this would have fit me and I think in a way Joe had that sort of feeling that sense of well I guess if everyone's telling me that I'm too tall I'm too loud I am too this and that to be married just as I had deep down cared that I wanted to look good but being told pretty much your whole life that you're not suited for that kind of thing and if you don't fit the mold of what is this idea of marriage well then I guess you won't get married I think Alcott felt the same way and in her case she never did get married and tying into that sort of wish fulfillment writing that she gives that to Joe that she has this whole time feeling like I guess I'm not suited for marriage because who's gonna want to marry me and then meets Friedrich who was like I love you for all that you are and my idea of marriage is this way let me I was I guess tailored to be your husband just because I feel the same way too and I don't think people realize that when you when we talk about Joe in marriage that Joe doesn't repel the idea of marriage because she doesn't want to be in love or she doesn't want children or even like the sense of independence she thinks that marriage is will tie you down because that's what the time period as I kind of said earlier being married is a job it's a full-time job that's all that she's gonna do and that's not what she wants it takes her some time to sort of realize and through her relationship with Friedrich that it's you can be independent and married you know you can have both it's not choose one or the other and I think people sort of misinterpret that because they just think almost the same way as Joe starts in the beginning that she thinks you can't have one without the other and and I think that's a shame because it's a very and again almost in a way a misogynistic sort of point of view because it's ties in with that you know oh you want to be that feminine woman who gets married and is a stay-at-home mom or and whatnot like like I feel like if Meg wanted like in the modern day she would probably be more like a stay-at-home mom or something of that kind and probably would get judged for it it doesn't mean that you're not independent you can still you made the choice to want to be you know a stay-at-home mom or to be a wife and that that doesn't mean that all of a sudden you lose any sense of self it just means you've started this whole new other journey that can lead to something more of who you are as a person and to get to spend it with someone that you love and trust enough to want to spend that journey hopefully till the end of your lives and in the book it's really Amy and Meg are the other conventionally good-looking ones so they are expected to get married Beth and Joe are not expected to get married because of the way they look that was socially awkward Joe had issues with her anger some men of the time properly considered her too independent with her want to become a writer when Joe reads the the novel in the first part the white white world it's so funny because when I read white white world well this story is just like true and pretty in little woman the leading character in white white world but she kind of has that similar situation she doesn't really consider herself very pretty or attractive and she feels that you know nobody's going to love me because of the way I am and then she finds this pretty clear archetype character and then they fall in love so it's really interesting how that's integrated into the story of little woman but obviously it was somehow a significant story to lose them out because if you believe that you are not word of romance or love and then you have these stories that you read which prove otherwise must have found some inspiration there there's one story that has the sort of Laurie archetype who starts with this Joe type of character and then moves on to this character is more similar to Amy this transition happens he also grows as a man so I can see very clear connections to this literature that Louisa like to read and also these real life events that happened in her life and her relationships I was gonna say and I think it's interesting when you look at the bigger picture of in general how Alcott deals with marriage because not all of them have the same kind of marriage like when if you're gonna look at how Meg and John's relationship develops Laurie and Amy's relationship develops and Joan Friedrich they're not all the same I think it takes a good writer to sort of make it be different enough because it's just very easy to just be like well this is what I would want a marriage to be and I'll make them all be the same but like you have different types of people and how they respond and react to things and Megan John kind of getting to that fight after the jam incident that sort of thing I would never imagine happening between Joe and Friedrich because their personalities are completely different between Meg and John's particularly in the beginning of the marriage and I think that it shows that not only what it is that I think Alcott in general was expecting and hoping a marriage would be but understood that the reality of the marriage for some people may not always be easy for someone like Meg who has always kind of had these dreams of having a little bit of money would have these feelings of like why can't we do this and John was trying to help her versus like Amy and Laurie who where money is not an issue and it is whatever they could want they can get and Joe and Friedrich who are like you know what we both already know we have no delusions of grandeur we know that we're very hard working people and we will work to be successful but ultimately they are all healthy relationships they're just different and I think that for someone who never got married herself I think Alcott really understood that not every marriage is the same but that doesn't mean that they're not good in their own way it works for them and I think it really shows that if if you had paired again someone like Laurie with Joe they would have clashed and not have moved forward in the same way when you try to look at it in the bigger picture of these characters and their relationships with each other and with the people that they're with it tells a lot and I think it tells a lot of Alcott who clearly was thinking a lot about marriage and its ups and its downs. That was our chat for today I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you so much for listening take care and make good choices. Bye!