Doug Kraft On Conscious Perspective With Gary Haskins

Interview with Doug Kraft on the Conscious Perspective Podcast with Gary Haskins. Topics discussed include confronting our sufferings, suffering is to be understood, different ways to express universal truths, turning toward the wholesome, when sending and receiving kindness feel the same, behind it all I’m not separate, the identification process, and ennobling Truths.

Please note: This audio is ripped from a video.

Transcript

Hello, Doug. Well, Hello. Oops, My video is not on. There you go. Yeah. How are we doing today? All right, I think. How do I know? When I was younger, I used to know how I was doing, And nowadays I just don't know. Is that what happens? In old age, You just don't know how you feel? There are more and more layers. Oh, I see. Okay. So you see something, And then something else comes up that causes a major problem. So you see something, And then something else comes up that causes some conditions and all kinds of stuff. Mm-hmm. Well, I guess I got that to look forward to. So how are you doing? How do you think you're doing? Well, I think I'm doing good. I think I'm feeling good today. It's a sunny day. A little bit of snow where I'm at, But I'm nice and cozy where I'm at inside of my room. What's that statue you have behind you? Is it a statue or a painting? Yeah, Right there. Yeah. Well, It's an interesting story. During the Senate Watergate hearings, I was temporarily between jobs, And so I was living here in California then, So I would get up early in the morning and turn on the Watergate hearings. And in the meantime, I had a book of photographs of early Americans, Their original photographs. So this was a Pomo Indian from Southern California. And I was experimenting with using, Well, That one was black ink on white paper and just copying these. This guy over here was done at that same time. That's pretty cool. Yeah, You can't quite see it, But what I loved about him was there was something about his eyes that you could see that this guy had suffered a lot, But was still just like fully composed and fully present and not prone by that at all. So I found it very moving. Isn't that interesting how you can kind of like feel something from somebody's eyes sometimes when you look dead in the eyes and you can, Like you said, Almost feel their suffering in a way. Part of it is, And you can't see it there, But his eyes are very moist. Oh yeah. You know, There was, There weren't tears coming out but there was enough, A little bit more, There would have been tears so there was a kind of a wide openness to that, And yet he felt just completely and naturally composed all at the same time. That's an awesome story. I feel like that means something to like, You know, There's something to that stoicism of that, That image. Well, You know, I was depressed for the first 40 years of my life and it took just, You know, A lot, A lot of deep work and meditation and therapy and all kinds of things to work through that so I have some sort of resonance, You know, With same suffering, Particularly, You know, People who have not tried to rise above it but actually gone through it and out the other side. And that's how I mean that's really the only way to do it right is to go through our sufferings right, Or at least confront them. Yeah, Yeah, Too. Yeah, Otherwise you're doing override and those are fragile. You know the Old Testament story of Jacob wrestling with a demon. I don't know that off the top of my head but if you know, Feel free to tell. Yeah, Well, The story is there was Jacob and his big brother Esau and Esau was this big burly guy and very arms and back at that time, You know, An ancient, I was probably pre Israel but it was, You know, Way, Way back in the tribal days. And the oldest inherited everything from the family and the name went less than that would get nothing. So, Jacob went to his dad who was reportedly I don't know 170 or something like that. And his dad was almost blind. And he had a put a sheepskin over his forearm and so his dad went out and felt the sheep skin and thought this was Esau. And so, That gave him the blessing, Which formally transferred all the stuff. And it wasn't undoable. So, Jacob had gotten what was supposed to be Esau's. And Esau was just, You know, Enraged and was, You know, Was going to kill his brother. And so Jacob took off. And, You know, He left the area and went over to a neighboring area and settle down and had several wives and family and kids and flocks he did quite well. But he still had left this thing of trying to set things right with his brother. So, He decided it was time. And so, They were traveling back. He got all his flocks and his family and his sons and all that and they were traveling back. And then the last night they were traveling, They came to the Jabbok River. And so, They camped on the far side of the Jabbok River. And the next day they were going to go on the rest of the way and meet his brother and see if they could settle this. So, That sort of gives a sense of what Jacob's frame of mind was. And so, The story is he woke up in the middle of the night and there was some being in the encampment. It was too dark to tell who it was. But it seemed very threatening. So, Jacob was interested in what he did was he got his family and hauled them up and took them across the Florida River. And then he went back in the encampment, Alone and unarmed. And something grabbed him and threw him to the ground. And so, He wrestled back and said to wrestle for several hours. Jacob didn't win. Whatever this entity was didn't win. And then the sun began to come up. And so, This entity reached over and with one finger dislocated his hip. So, It was like, Wait a minute, Whatever it was he was wrestling with was really powerful. It was holding back. Oh, I left out part of it. So, This thing said to him as the sun came up, Release me or I must go. And Jacob said no. And that's when he reached over and dislocated his hip. And so, This thing says release me or I must go. And Jacob said no. And then he asked, Well, What do I have to do to get you to release me? And he said, You must give me your blessing. And so, They gave him a blessing was that from him a whole nation, He would be a father of a whole nation. Which for that culture at that time was the highest blessing anyone could receive. And so, Jacob released the demon who turned down to be an angel and limped off into the sunrise. So, The core of what I take from that is anything that can really scare you, That can throw you off has got a lot of power in it. So, You want to wrestle but not to defeat it, But enough to get some boom, Some blessing. Yes. Yes. So, Like transmutate that energy of whatever that demon or angel is into better working for yourself. That's good. That's great. And that's, You know, That's just like the essential story of no clinging, Just let it go. I kind of see the parallel between that story and, You know, The basic tenets of Buddhism. It's a little more central than even that because the first noble truth, And I see the noble truths, They're actually meditation instructions. And the first one says, There's a three-part repetition that says there is suffering. And from which Buddhism get this reputation for being pessimistic, But that wasn't it. It was just, You know, But I think it's been pessimistic. I just asked people, Well, Is there anyone here who's never suffered? No, We all do. So, It's just actually a simple kind of mundane, Almost obvious truth. So, There is suffering and suffering is to be understood. And the understand there is not an intellectual analysis, But is a kind of deep intuitive knowing about how suffering works. So, I think, How would you know a good friend? Well, If you know a good friend, You know what they tick, How they tick, What sets them off, What lifts them up, You really understand how they operate. And so, The Buddha was saying that you must understand suffering, You must understand how it operates. And so, That's, Yeah, It's a place where Buddhism starts. Do you see parallels, Like a lot of parallels between biblical passages or other holy book passages and like tenets of Buddhism? Well, You have to really dig deep, You know, I guess I think these truths are really universal and the problem with Christianity is so much of what we know about in the popular culture is what's come down through the church, Which had other kinds of agendas, Etc, Etc. But if you go back to the mystics, You know, The ones who are in direct experience, You know, It's all there. I think it's all there. The language is very different. Yeah. You know, Buddhism doesn't use, You know, Language of gods and deities, That sort of thing so much because it's. . . Yeah, It's all. . . I've got your charge to it, It throws it off. It's all, It's all like pointing in the same direction right it's just different lingo, Different ways to really express universal truths about the human condition. Yeah. Well, St. John of the Cross, I mean, One of his most famous writings, The Dark Night of the Soul, You know, And so you look at suffering, Dark night of the soul and how to deal with that, Etc. And certainly find things that resonate between them all. It's difficult talking about Christianity and those others in some loaded circles because what most people know is the more popular forms of Christianity, Which has a whole other layer of stuff. But, You know, I read St. John of the Cross or Meisterkaptart, You know, Even Ralph Waldo Emerson, You know, They were far out dudes, You know, You start reading between the lines and try to figure out what these guys were experiencing. It's like, Boy, They were out there. Yeah. And that's, I feel like that's the true essence of, You know, Christianity or the mysticism, The mysticism behind Christianity is the is the true message behind and people like you just mentioned, Are, That's really what it's all about and I mean is it. Why has it been so construed over the years of people just through human nature just kind of corrupted it in a way. Yeah, Well, It's, I mean if you look at Buddhism. And then we look at the Buddhist text. You know, There are some places in the Buddhist texts where they talk about the Lord Buddha, And he's really this elevated guy. If you go back to the very early texts that would have been a kind of a Ghana, A suit in a potter. There's no elevated guy there's that there's this guy who they usually call the wanderer, Who was obviously deeply loved and deeply respected but he's actually comes across as really really human. And then there are some texts are probably written down during his lifetime, And then there were other texts that were weren't really written down until three or four centuries after the Buddha died. And when 400 300 or 400 years is insane because that's the difference from 1620 to 2020. So, If there was a Buddha in 1620, It would take, We would just be writing it down right now, In terms of that. And if we didn't have any record except what was passed down morally for 400 years. Oh wow. Yeah, That is even more insane too. That's okay. Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh no, That was okay. And it was an oral tradition. You know, They did have writing, Obviously but but the writing was for, You know, Contracts, You know, I'll give you so many cows with so many chickens, You know, But, You know, Sacred material, You know, Put into that mundane written form, Sacred material had to be alive so it was passed along from person to person. Yeah. Do you think there's something to oral transmission rather than transmission from text, Because there is there something that's lost in translation from when literally I'm talking about the Buddha or whatever. And then if I were to write down something about the Buddha's lessons like is there something like is it some kind of like weird energy that isn't transmitted, Or something that's just a little different. You think, Yeah, Yeah. You could look at it even in simpler terms. I mean, I can tell you something, You know, And you can't write down what I mean. What you can write down is how that impacts you and your understanding. Yes. Okay. You know, And, And yours can be quite genuine and there can be close alignment but it says that, You know, As it comes through you. Yeah. And so, It's like another variable because it's like, Yeah, It's just it's just like another, Another point of translation, In a way, I see what you mean. Yeah. So if you really want to understand the text. Well I think you have to do as I always get like five or six translations from scholars I trust because my understanding Polly is not that good. And look at all the different ways it's translated, And then take all that into my own experience, And it's sort of with a question, What is it the Buddha might have been saying that could just turn this off. Yeah. What is it that the Buddha might have met that could be translated or mistranslated this way. And then for that you have to feel your way back in with your own experience. And that's as close as we can actually get. It's not very satisfying because we want to know what he actually said, You know, As if there was somebody back there with a TV recorder or something like that. Yeah, That's like a it's like a scientific approach in a way. Yeah, Simple side, You know, Take it experiment and see if it works for you take what you need and check out what the results are and then keep experimenting whatever works for you it seems. Then come back and look at the text again and sometimes there'll be passage of there, They just don't make any sense to me and then my practice goes deeper and look back and say, Oh, That's what this guy was talking about. So actually, Before we go any further, I love how this conversation has transpired so far. If you could actually give a little bit about yourself and your practice and how you came to be where we are right now and on December of 2020 and then wherever the conversation goes we can take it. Okay. Okay. Well, I don't know how far back to go. So I always was drawn towards this sense that there's more to us than meets the eye. And so I was always curious, You know, And exploring them. So that was always there and the other thing that was that was there was that I was chronically depressed for first first 30 or 40 years. And what that did for me was that I couldn't just cruise. You know a lot of people just sort of crew well I just cruise that went downhill. So, So I had to keep looking at this stuff and I had this curiosity, You know, To start off with. And so I was, I was a minister of this little tiny church Unitarian Universalist congregation in central Massachusetts. Yeah, About Ashley method. Oh okay I live in town, Massachusetts. Okay, Okay, Yeah so this is, This is the state of North Pittsburgh. It was interesting because my great great grandfather my father's side was pitch was was the guy who founded six for Massachusetts so somehow I ended back there. That's awesome. So I was in this little tiny church, And I had Daniel Ellsberg came and talk to my church, And Scott nearing and. And all these, You know, Far out guys you know back in the late 60s that were doing things and somebody said, Well, You know, You got to get a spiritual to come out here. So who do you want. And I said, Well, How about Rhonda. And so I said you know what the heck so I wrote this note to Rhonda us and asked if he would come and talk at my church and said we're a little church, You know, Out in the countryside when we draw people from the ways but we're not a big thing but you know we need inspiration here too. And it was blown away that I got this note back and they said he was going into retreat will be at about six weeks and he would be glad to come. So you resist. This was back in the early 70s. That's awesome. Yeah. So he came out to my church, And I came to dinner and you know and did and did all this thing. And I felt like, You know, For the first time that I had met somebody who actually knew something about something. I wasn't sure what but I wasn't sure I had ever met anybody know anything about anything, But he just talked about something, He knew something just by you could just tell by his, His energy, His energy and the way he talked, And his presence, Etc. And meditation seem to be important to him. So I wanted more what he had. It was just that kind of spiritual greed. And so I asked him, You know what to do and he said well in Massachusetts, This is a bearish abundance. The insight insight meditation society had just been started out in western mass and Joseph Goldstein's had cornfield and stuff. So I wrote to them I signed up for a retreat, And I just kind of went in cold turkey. So you never really meditated ever before, And then you just feel like hey, I want to be like Ram Dass kind of. I want to I want with some of this guy has. Well, I had been meditating on and off for years but you know it's one of those things where I would meditate for 10 minutes one day and 20 minutes the next day and I forget the three I see, I see, I just sort of flopped along. And I decided that as well as I did a 10 day retreat at least I get some momentum going. And so I signed up for the two week retreat. And I remember the first evening, You know, Sitting down there and sitting there, Starting to meditate. And then it dawned on me that I had, You know, 9, 10, 13 days left of doing nothing but this. And this big light went off in my head and said, Mistake, Mistake. So I fumbled through that whole retreat. And, You know, It was, It was really, Really messy. But messy. Oh, Why is that, You know, I didn't know what I was doing. I was trying, You know, And I was fumbling around and doing this that and the other. But when I left the retreat, And got home I started meditating for an hour to an hour and a half in the morning an hour and a half evening, I have haven't stopped since so that got me started and I went back the next year. And so I was off and running. And then in 2000, And moved from Massachusetts out to Sacramento, Became the lead minister of this large, You know, Train the rest of congregation. And, And I went out to Spirit Rock, And I connected up with john Travis, Who was a teacher at Spirit Rock, Who's, Who's just really wonderful for me. And. And so I started going seeing him once a week, And doing more retreats, And he introduced me. I realized that I was going into john is I didn't quite know what john was were but I heard Larry Rosenberg, Talk about john was formerly, And, And I thought, John is these are for real meditators he's on for me and so as he was talking about it he sat and meditated order. But as he was talking I realized he was actually talking about states that I've been going in and out of but nobody ever spoken of, And so I want to talk to him about it. And he said yeah that's the first job. That's the second. And, And I started, I got a little weepy and I said you know I've been struggling with all my life and I didn't feel like I've ever gotten anyplace and he put his hand on my shoulder and said, You know, I remember what the words but there was something the fact is I pronounce you a good meditator, But it was, It wasn't that it was just like formally so really acknowledging that. And I just got weepy about it. Oh, When I met john Travis and was talking about the john is either this. This guy that he'd known for a long time, But if you don't know Ramsey, Who did a lot of work with the john and they weren't the concentration john is that lets you hear more about they were really more awareness john, So it based more on the text. So I did my thing I wrote to him and said I'd like to come to a retreat with you and I went out that was 2004 2005, And I did probably two retreats, A year, 10 to 14 days, Each. And, And he was really quite gifted at recognizing where I was and how to work with that and so I just got moved up through the john's really quickly. You think you need a teacher like to help you, You think it's like needed, Or is it just very very helpful to have somebody that's kind of guiding you along your spiritual journey. Yeah, That's a that's that's a good question but it's not a good answer to it. Yeah, It's probably different for everybody right. Yeah, And it depends on temperament. I have a student of mine in Europe, Who had meditated from went around for about six months and I haven't gotten anywhere. And he got a hold of me and we started talking and within six or seven or eight months. They've gotten stream entry. And I mean, 40 years and stuff like this. And so, He was clearly, You know, Quite gifted, You know, Just naturally, You know, Good karma etc. And me I stumbled around. You know, But I get there. And so I think a good teacher who really knows what they're doing, And keep you from going down quite so many blind alleys, Like, So it's like guidance. Yeah. And I also think people who have difficulty learning it. In some ways, Are actually better teachers. Why is that? Because somebody who is just really good at it, May not really understand all the blind alleys people go down. Oh, I know what you mean if somebody is just a natural they don't know how they can really mess themselves up, Or other people could mess themselves up. I know what you mean. So I don't, I have very few students who stumble around who I think, Oh yeah I've been down that alley. Yes. That makes sense. So, Through these, You know, Various practices with various teachers you have relieved you're essentially putting it simply you relieve your mental sufferings in a way like your depression that you spoke about it brought you like to a sense of ease and peace or happiness in your life. Yeah, Although it's, It's actually a lot more complicated than that. I'm just imagine I'm certainly not like. But what I've just been realizing recently was some old habits that I had from those years of depression is that the whole trip is a lot further out and just a whole lot simpler. And there was a part of me that was still trying to keep on wholesome states that they keep them off. And at some point that just doesn't work. Yeah, Because, Because that's actually a version. People trying to push the negative way that you're at you're adding a version to a version. And, And again we can go back to the know the others of the floor to the truth. But part of what the Buddha talks about in that is at some place. And, And as you cultivate those wholesome qualities. They will bring everything else along. So that for examples. Now I can sit down to meditate. And I've learned a lot of techniques and stuff and they go work very hard at it for taking up 45 minutes and gradually my mind quiet down, Quiet down. It's a pretty nice place. Other times I can sit down and meditate. And I'll just turn my mind was. And it runs around like a banshee on speed or something like that it just goes crazy for five or 10 minutes and then it drops without any warning into this deep stillness. And so I think you know I can work really hard at this, And I'll get quiet about 45 minutes, I can do nothing, And the mind will quiet itself. Five or 10 minutes. And I wish it was that simple but because there's sometimes in the band she will go on forever and I, You know, Need more techniques and stuff like that. But I think what I was trying to get back around to us that wholesome and unwholesome states are not enemies. That I can be. Well, I'll find it sometimes you know in this pandemic. You know, Sometimes the isolation just gets a little old. Yeah. You know, And I can feel a little bit slightly depressive, Something like that. And then so I go out and I live near the American River, So walking along the river. And I look up and there's a tree there, And the tree doesn't give a damn whether I'm happy or sad. And some they look at the tree, And I don't give a damn whether I'm happy or sad I just am what I am. And I, And at that point I realized I'm grinning like an idiot. You know, There's this deep sense of well being that's abuses through me, And there's still some of the gripping of, You know, Being tired or bored or lonely or something like that. Yeah, And that those can coexist together. They have to right? Yeah, Yeah. So we're always trying to get rid of the unwholesome and get the wholesome. But if I just cultivate the wholesome, And then gradually that'll penetrate it. And I don't think the unwholesome actually completely disappear until we don't care whether they're there or not. Yeah. And so they just fade into the background and slowly sort of drift off and then there's this well being. That is the weird irony of it's I mean it's essentially like getting Yang it's like you can't, You can't have the wholesome about the unwholesome and you can't. You have to embrace that there is no getting rid of it it's essentially just. It's like, I know what you mean it's like energy you can't just have the yen, You can't just have the Yang you need both, It's just. It's just recognizing it, I know what you mean, Because a lot of people just like you said are averted to all those negative things and it's just the more you shoot away, The more it makes it stronger. Yeah, It seems counterintuitive. It's a demon's blessing. The demon's blessing that's good. Yeah. Come back to a restart. Wow. So, What, Um, What have you. How am I trying to say this. What, Where are you at now from all of these years. Are you like you want to spread this knowledge to others, Are you is your place to be a teacher to, That's what you are right you are you're a meditation teacher right. Yeah. So you're spreading the love essentially right you trying to make everybody have everybody else be on that same wavelength and using the same practice that you had. Yeah, So, Um, So just say it very succinctly there. Every morning when I, My first city my two refugees precepts and aspirations, And the last line of the aspirations. I just reworked them several months ago, Goes. When sending and receiving kindness feels thing. That's good. So I like that self dissolves and contentment and ambition fades into timeless presence. Wow. That was you that's your, Those are your words. Those are my words. Can you say that again. When sending and receiving kindness, Feel the same. Like whether you're sending or receiving, It's actually the same space inside self as a separate dualistic thing self dissolves into contentment and ambition, The desire to get someplace. So I ended up phase into. I first said eternity but that's got a little bit too much churches stuff to it so I ended up phase into timeless presence. That's good. So essentially it's through our love and selflessness. We become selfless ourselves, Like, We become, We fade into just that flow of being a good person kindness and goodness and essentially that makes us happier. It's like that's the way we're following the path like the to make us happy and the path isn't necessarily to materialistic gains right. It's through just being good person it's that simple. Yeah, And it's a little further out than that. It's not that we change or improve ourselves. Sorry, I don't. It seems like the sun is in your eyes on the video adjust. It's, If it's uncomfortable for you. I just wanted to give you time to adjust it. Just because it's something I noticed. Oh, That's. It's a few hours earlier than you are and so the sun is coming up over the trees there. Oh yeah, That's that seems like a lot better. Yeah. So, The essence of it all is really non dual so there's not like it's not like a demon to wrestle the blessing from the blessing is actually there. So, They. And Buddhism is talked about as a two truths, There's a relative truth and the absolute. And so in the relative you can talk about getting somewhere etc etc. And that's how the consensual the normative, You know world operates, But behind it all. Um, Behind it all. I'm not really a separate organism. No. If you took my. If I went straight up 300 miles. I'm dressed like I am now. You know, In a minute or two they'd be nothing left to me but a bunch of ice crystals. So, You know, I cannot survive, Unless I'm embedded. And this thin layer of an ecosphere here with all these other creatures and everything else so on some fundamental level. I am not separate I'm just, You know, An energy move but in this total flow. And I think from evolutionary selection, People who are just at peace with everything Canada get eaten and taken out of the gene pool. And those who are paranoid about protecting themselves they live longer so we have deeply wired into us. This belief and understanding that we're a separate self and that's how the world operates and we can do all that but behind it all really isn't true. Yeah. And so it's, It's really, It's about attuning to what's actually here rather than attaining. So the peacefulness and the kindness and compassion are not something that we can find or create. There's something we tune into. Yeah, That we have, You know, I have a chapter of one of my books I call it a tuning not attaining there's nothing to attain but there's something to be said for attuning. You know, To what's there. And so that's, That's the truth of what we really are. And so the art of it because you know in Buddhism. It's not either extreme middle way there's both of them so it's acknowledging the relative world when you're on the other side of the continent and I were talking through this mysterious magical electronic technology and the sun is coming up here and it's probably you know region seen as where you are and all that separate and yeah. On some real fundamental level. There's underneath all of those layers of stuff. There's a place that me which is actually no different than you. Yeah, And all that just existed this name time. Yes, That is. Well that was beautiful. Yeah, There's no separation, There's no locality to our unity. You know it's just it transcends all matter transcends all space and time that unity is everlasting presence in a way that is just always with us. I know what you mean 100%. I know there is, There is a me that's separate than you, Within a certain timeframe. So if the timeframe gets narrower and narrower and narrower okay I'm here and I'm there, But if we spread the timeframe out to like a couple thousand years, Then that clearly who I am is something that rose up and came together and then dissolved and went back into everything. Yes. So, At this moment, I have a being, But in timelessness. Timelessness yeah you don't. How many going. Yeah. In time we are just a collective being it seems like yes we in this very small amount of time we are these small beings but through the large amount of time, Which even human beings haven't even been around that long in relative to the universe so I mean, What we are into like billions and trillions of years is this crazy cosmic creation. But yes, In terms of humanity. If you do space out the history of humanity, It seems to be we are this collective being. That is a result of billions and billions of very short spans of beings that think they're not part of the collective or at least they seem to have some kind of amnesia about the collective this. And from that we have created this, This, The human race, Which is really at our truth at our core. One being in itself. We are fireflies. See that's a scary concept for. I mean, Scary concept for me I'm not gonna say I'm above that concept for pretty much everybody. And throughout my practice at least is brought me peace to be at that to know what we really are because if we do believe that we are just this separate being this ego that I am Gary Haskins in this meat soup, Then yeah that's going to cause a lot of fear that's going to cause a lot of suffering that's going to cause a lot of just like emotions that aren't true to myself. But if you do these practices these meditations yoga, Whatever you have to do to reach that those states of, I guess you can say enlightenment or awakening or just states, Other states of awareness to see that what we just explained to know what we are we're just part of this giant organism in this crazy cosmic conundrum, Then it kind of makes that feeling of dying. Not so. I don't know if you say bad just makes it not so fearful it's just like oh this is just the process you know this is kind of what we're living in this is life and death is yin and yang it's how it's supposed to go so essentially, The biggest thing I've got from my meditation and yoga practice is kind of like, I don't want to say 100% but it's kind of negated my fear of dying, I'm not gonna say it's 100% you know if it was a car coming at me at 90 miles per hour I'd obviously step out of the way I'm not going to like self emulate myself in the streets, But it has to a large majority of large percentage of, You know, My fear of death has been kind of just, I don't know if you want to say put in the background but like I kind of understand it more. It's kind of like more of a comprehension thing, Rather than an actual just like staying up at night and fearing about it. You know what I'm, You know what I mean like I was explaining my practice. No, I'm with you. And, And I, What fascinates me and all this in the process of all this is actually the process of identification. Yeah, It will be identified with this body with certain thoughts or stuff. And so part of what I think is as far out to look at is actually watching the identification happen. Oh yeah, Because I think it's wired into us. Again, If everybody was like you and really not scared of death. You know, Your genes have been taken out of the gene pool, Much more quickly. Yeah, Exactly. If you didn't have enough fear to step out of the way of the car. Yeah, So you have a blissful life and then you're gone, You're going to that. It's not even not having fear it's knowing how to work with your fear like we explained before like you need both. It's not not obviously I'm a human being I'm going to fear thing, It's more of just knowing how to respond to it in a way. So I'll tell you the thing that scared me the most past, I don't know, Several weeks or several months is looking this whole identification process. It was, Say that again? Looking at this identification process that goes on. And, And I don't know about you, But there's like a voice in my head. Yeah, And you know that's talking about stuff my voice likes to explain things a lot. I know that's why I became a teacher or whether it's a byproduct of about that happens and sometimes it complains, Sometimes, You know, It's celebrating sometimes it's bragging and sometimes it's apologizing and all kinds of things. And so as I was just watching the voice and, And rather than thinking about the content just listen to voice. I realized, There's nobody there. You know, Whoever it is I think I'm talking to this actually nobody there. Yeah, We have, And it's like it's such a simple obvious thing but I felt like, You know, The old Roadrunner cartoons or Wile E. Coyote chases the Roadrunner off cliff and he goes out for a mile before I realized he doesn't, There's no ground underneath that's what I felt like I was just, Yeah, There is, And it was, It was both terrifying. And I found myself grinning like an idiot. And where we started there was that both both the fear and this tremendous, You know, Freedom, At the same time, And it's not that I believe in the thing but watching the voice inside me not the content, But the tone and the texture and seeing what it's doing kind of helps me see it as a process rather than what I am. And what I am is completely mysterious, You know, And evaporates it can never be pinned down but I can see how the mind processes create the sense itself. Yeah, I feel like that is. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. And if you can see the sense of self being created. Whatever is watching it is not yet. Yeah, Exactly. Then who's watching the witness. Yeah. There is awareness, And you have what is it that's aware of the noun behind. Can't really be known, We can know the process, We can see a process going on, A lot of the answer is actually experienced, Because no matter what you experience, Or who you think is experiencing it. You can always turn your eyes and look at that. So what does that it's looking. Yeah, I think that's just how our mind works it's always looking for a subject, Subject object, That's just it's also our language is kind of structured it's just like we're always looking for that subject object subject object polarity, And there's something that is art we always want to cling to but I think it's the essence is lying and really identifying with not, It's not even identifying with non self. Right, It's don't identify with self and don't identify with non self which doesn't even make conceptual sense. Yeah, And so where I go with all that is I always try to trace this stuff back to the evolutionary process. You know, And we as a species we don't have big claws or big teeth. Then our number one survival mechanism has actually been to band together. And so, You know, Relationships and interconnections and stuff is deeply wired into our DNA just to survive. Because those who are loners and have these weak bodies are more likely to get picked off by the local predators than the ones who actually stuck with them. And so to see that this identification is relating and talking to you and explain things and listening and all that sort of stuff as something created as a fluke out of evolutionary laws, Not something that's got any grandiose epistemological reality of its own. It's just a way that we function and there's nothing behind it other than that. It helps our DNA reproduce itself and that's all that's needed to keep it going. Yeah, That's not because of some grandiose something like that. And even God, I get out of trouble but I'm a minister so I can do this. You know, I think it's taking our sense of self and projecting it out. Oh yeah. So, Because there's something about us that just wants to be in relationship. But is there anything beyond that? I don't know. It's worth exploring. I don't know if there's a good answer. There is no answer I think the only answer is that there is no answer I mean maybe you can experientially feel certain states that may allow you to come to certain insights and see the universe differently but there's always going to be if you're using the mind some kind of subject in object relationship. I feel like even if you're saying it just any kind of words that we use or any kind of concepts of the mind yeah there's no answer. The mind yeah there's no way to really that not identifying with non self and emptiness right essentially. So, We'll go back to where we started, You know, The noble truths. They're not really noble they're just, They're just plain ordinary obvious observations and I think you said in a video that the truth sign noble but the people that are the ones that come to the realizations of the truth or noble right or something along that line. That's a noble and noble and yeah okay yeah. So the second one is, Is the word is which is often translated as craving, But that's way too narrow, A term, It's, It's actually a tightening. Craving and can be just like, Oh, All kinds of things. And, And then the practice that goes with that is a very dramatic term, It's, It's abandoned. And so, As we're looking at all this stuff in the sense of self and who is this and what's it, What can be interesting is just to as you're doing that look inside and see if there's any place that's hiding. And if you see that to see if you can soften that and relax it. And when that goes deep enough. You end up in, I was gonna say a non dual state it's not really a state, But, But that the separateness of things fade into the background. And so from a practical level. It's always looking for the places where we tighten. And it's not even getting rid of the tightness because that just adds aversion to something, But it's just, I think of it, Sort of like this if I make a fist, And I hold on to it, It can start to hurt and if I ignore it there I can keep it tight for a long time. But if I actually pay attention to that it's actually harder to keep it because I feel it hurts and it's naturally relaxes. Oh, I see. So there's a way in which you when we see the tightness that just open up to it, It just naturally starts to dissolve. And as that dissolves, You know, The sense of separateness can still be there as, As a useful mechanism but see that the reality behind it is just the shadow. And then conceal that spaciousness really. Yeah, That's a good word. How would someone recognize that tightness that you described because I know what you mean. I think. Is there any other terms that you can use, Then tightness or any other way that you can describe something like you know that negative emotion that you think you're getting at like that kind of. Yeah, It's not even it's not even emotion, Because you know emotions have usually have a story. So if you're angry, And get all caught up in what you did to me and it's got all that story and stuff but I can also look inside and just see if there's tension tightness, Or just even a kind of a density. And so I don't know what it's like for you to have this energy. But if you look inside, I mean you're you're in a certain role that you honorably and there's probably at various times, Things will tighten up a little bit and then loosen a little bit behind it all. Yeah. And so it's just learning to watch that. And the thing to be careful with is, You don't want to be playing with sharp objects at the time because you know there's so much of how to operate that depends on having that that sense itself and so as it softens. You know you spend more time with it then you gradually get your sea legs, Where you can be in it but it can be a little, A little rattling at first, And the rattling is actually a python. So, What I what I call it is my translation of the second noble truth is a practice is relaxing into. So if I'm feeling depressed I relax into the depression, If I'm feeling angry, I relax into the anger. If I'm feeling joyful glee at having something I relax into, I'm the joyful and so it's always turning towards it and relaxing into it. First you have to embrace it. First you have to confront in a way or like first you have to first be aware. Well, The first noble truth, Understanding suffering, The practical translation I use for that is turning towards. Okay. You know there's something going on in the first thing you just need to orient towards it. You know, Do anything with it, But it's, You know, It's not go like that but turned towards it. And then see if there's any tension if there is relaxed into the tension so you're not relaxing so you've disinflated yourself from it. It's relaxing into it. At this point, It gets spacious. And then it's a long story but the third noble truth I translate is deepening or savoring. So when they're good feelings that come up you just let them marinate, Use marinated let them soak into your bones. Because biologically we're wired to notice pain, Worth and pleasure. So when you notice some uplifted feelings come there it actually helps to just be with them. The word of the text is realized, But I think it's just it's an awkward translation but means is make real how to make something real. Let it soak in. And then the fourth noble truth is the eightfold path right you follow the eightfold path. Yeah, And I call it an eightfold checklist. Eightfold checklist real quick just for anyone doesn't know. Yeah, So so there's a first three which I call it the three essential practices. And that's, That's very complete in and of itself but there's times you can do the three of those, And you know it doesn't quite work and so if it's not quite working. Then the Buddha gave these eight places where you can look and see if there's some holding. Okay, So, First one is wise view, Which is just how you're seeing it drives the whole process. Depending on how you see things that will create intentions, Unconscious intentions. You know, Just orientation. So it's wise view wise intention. And then the next three have to do with how to relate to other people in the world. So there's wise speech. And Buddha had more to say about wise speech than anything else because it's a place where we get entangled the most. So, Third one is wise speech. And then there's wise action. Speech is a form of action but speech is so much of itself, It took it out separately. So you look at your actions. And then there's a subtler one about action which is like, We all need some way to manage. You know, Keep body and mind stuff together in the world, And how, You know, Is there something harmful in the way that we do that or not. And then the last three have to do with practice itself. And so one is, I call it wise effort. So it takes some energy, But not strain. So that's what. So if you're straining and you practice, You can feel the tightness and you can relax that. The next one is, Is the one that is mistranslated most. It's usually translated as wise concentration but the word there is samadhi. And what samadhi is, Is a mind that is actually unified and relaxed. In English the word concentration implies too much effort. So Bhante Bimalamse calls it collectiveness. So there's a settlements, And then there's sati, Mindfulness, Just awareness. And that's a byproduct of all of it. So, You can look at those eight if you're doing the first three turning towards relaxing into savoring or deepening. And those aren't really working then you can look through those and you don't have to do them in order and just see if there's some places out of balance and that can help find. Oh, That was great. Eightfold checklist. I like that. That was great. So, You obviously know so much of Buddhism and I don't know you probably know so much more than I could ever imagine. In terms of, You know, The, Any kind of Buddhist any belief system. And so, What if you know you know you know the full path and the noble truths and those are tenants to live by, How come you chose not to live the monastic lifestyle. At this point, Like is that what, What do you think you get out of being Doug craft, Rather than being, You know, A monk. Um. So, You know, Monks life is to withdraw from the world. Maybe not totally but but they're actually, You know, Pull apart from it. And there's something in me that wants to be engaged. Yeah. And, And believe me, You know, A month's life has strong appeal to me. You know, There's just I don't so I do go on retreats and do that sort of stuff. But in the end, You know, I have a wife. And we were married for 50 years I got, I got two sons I got some grandkids now and. My path is a little more complicated it's actually more one of a householder. You know, And I, You know, Strand of all kinds of stuff in that I've retired from the ministry. And so I can have more time just Mr teaching meditation and there was, There was a time in my life a long time we're actually building spiritual communities and all of the administration, All of that stuff that just comes with that. And rebuild our church at one point, Talked about a big in the world project. And there was there was a time when I just love doing all that nuts and bolts of what it's like to create a spiritual community. These days I'm not drawn to it as much, I, But I still really love talking with people about their practice and they are. And as people do well in their practice and, You know, And stuff moves along. There's nothing that brings me more joy than that. So I do a lot of mentoring people. But I, You know, We'll see, We'll see how it goes. I think what you just described though is, Is, You know, That's like you said that your path that's legally as important as being a monk like that's just that we know what's what you know what's more liberating than liberating others in a way, You know, It's kind of like, It's a beaten like the taking the role of the body Safa. That's why I also I think of monks and I'm like, Well, What necessarily is a monk trying to do other than liberate himself like, You know, I think there's a saying you could probably iterated better than I could that, You know, Buddha Buddha didn't want to stop his incarnations until every everybody was on the other side of the river. So, How was a monk really contributing to that, Other than their own personal in their body salvation that you know if they're if somebody is just kind of like recluse and shut off from the world and literally almost quite literally shut off from the world. I don't know what the word to use other than value but where is the like kind of spiritual value in that because if you're not helping others, Which if we just concluded that others are also ourselves, Then what do you really doing, You know, Has you ever met somebody who seems like they're a little partially actualized, You know, As now it feels like they go really deep. They go really deep like really far out people. Yeah, Yeah. And in this inspiring. Oh, I see. Okay, No, You kind of see what's possible. And, You know, I've been fortunate as I've met a number of these, These people and and on, You know, On the one hand, It's like, You know, Way out there, And on the other hand, I look at it. There's nothing about them that is essentially different than me. And, And so that like is a tremendous motivator. I know, You know, I can, I can see what's possible and I can see that it's real it's not just the fantasy. And I look at this person, And it's not like they've got, You know, Different hormones and actually something like that there, You know, Fully human and yet, But they do. And that becomes. Yeah, It's an inspiration. I know exactly what you mean. We live in an incredibly complex society. Yes. There is there is this image of one of the Buddhist gods of compassion, Has 1000 arms, You know, Each arm has a different hand on it, And each is doing something different. And so, But we need those 1000 hands. We need all those different roles we need people raising conscious children. We need people teaching meditation, We need people who are can help heal bodies. We need people who are gifted. And so, What are what our path is, I don't think we get to choose our. It's, It's really something that resonates with us it's actually defined what happens. And it's not that one is holier than the other because it is all part of this larger collective. Yeah, You're correct. I shouldn't judge. And judgments are just the mind's way of protecting itself. And so my response to that because when I see myself judging, You know, It's the same, It's a reminder, You know, It's all perfectly. It's okay. Oh wow that was great. So, Do you think the obviously humanity is changing right we're moving toward what you just said like this multi limbed being of compassion and just creating, I don't know what we're creating but I think we're creating hopefully a better society through through a little struggle through a little strife right now and through a little growing pains I guess you could say. So, How do you think that we change like you said through raising our children consciously is this is this is that more important than kind of me trying to like have a conversation with somebody and say hey man you got to wake up, You know, You got to fall on the eightfold path is, Is it more important for social change for us to really raise the next generation to be just different people and raise good people. Is that more important like do you think social change my question is do you think social change occurs over the course of generations. Well, I think it obviously has. I think it obviously has. Familiar with the work of Ken Wilber. Who is it, Ken Wilber, I don't know Ken Wilber now. Yeah, So, So he's an incredibly bright and educated guy. And what he's studied is the word consciousness has different meanings, Some for some people it's just synonymous with awareness but what he uses the term and other people do is, Is how we process information. And, And how we humans process information. Well you can see kids when they grow up, You know, Gets deeper and deeper more subtle and sophisticated. And what he's been able to lay out pretty convincingly is how humanity, You know, Over time has been evolving higher more complex ways of integrating. Of processing. Of processing. Yeah. So, You know, So I try to pull these off the top of my head I'm going to embarrass myself but so at the Buddhist time, You know, So the highest level of consciousness that was generally available there are always exceptions people go way out. But what is today we call traditional literal, Which is what you think of as a fundamentalist, Which in today's world, I mean that's the most advanced around by any means. That was in the Buddhist time and that's his stuff was passed down through traditional literalism. So that was stuff we talked about earlier about trying to figure out what he really said when the people passing on may have not gotten. And then, Then you get more into the scientific empirical, You know where the traditional literal is kind of embedded with it, Empirical scientific method that stands back and looks at things more objectively. And then you get in the postmodern pluralism. And then where the leading edge today is up in areas that because integral, Which are people who can think in many different systems at once. So, So that you could actually take on a traditional little outlook and and just see what the world like looks like through those lens and take on, You know, A scientific empirical and see and see all those different ways. And those kinds of minds are much more integrated because they don't have to separate from other people noticing. So, Yes, We are definitely evolving as a species, And that doesn't mean that's inevitable. One of the things that boost the evolution is actually one a particular type of consciousness is no longer adequate to the situation where we need to go deeper. But there's no guarantee that we actually will. I mean, We just need to blow ourselves up. Yeah, We could. There's always that possibility. This past year, You know, It seems like, You know, The world has been in more dire circumstances that I remember my lifetime. And that that can really move us along. And we can also blow it, You know, And, You know, If you look back just even on this planet, 99. 999 percent of the species that have ever been here are extinct. We could be extinct. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah, We could. I don't think we will. There's something in me that tells me. Maybe I'm just a little too idealistic, Maybe a little too optimistic. I don't think we're going to blow ourselves up. I think we'll be all right. But even if we do, We'll be all right. You know, Even if we do blow ourselves up, It's still going to be OK. Oh, Man. I don't really have any other questions. I don't know. Really, If you have any other questions for me, You can ask them. If you have anything you want to get off your chest, If you really want to plug anything. Now's your time. OK. Yeah. No, I didn't come in with anything. You know, I wrote you. I wrote you. I said, I think I should be prepared. She said, No, We just don't just talk. Yeah, I think that's the way to do it. You know, Just kind of have a good conversation. Just wanted to get to know you and like your philosophy a little bit better. And I definitely did. And hopefully anybody who listen definitely did as well. And hopefully somebody got something from it. If nobody did, I did. So I appreciate you coming on here. And I've written four books on meditation. And so I think I could go through all that stuff in probably about 20 hours. So what's relevant to the moment? Yeah, Definitely. Yeah, I think that's kind of where I'm sorry. I'm just going off. I think that's where like authenticity comes from is where we can kind of just don't have anything prepared. And, You know, Because that's kind of just like throwing off the whole vibe. Even though we're not in the same room and actually having a conversation, There is we want to keep that. I try to keep all we were having a conversation. We are having a conversation. It's just through like we said before, Through through magical ways. And through that, I like to try to keep it authentic as possible because this is really not authentic. Using this and this is like it's some kind of weird contraption that are we're just just getting used to now. So I think when you add another element of I don't know if I say fakery, But if you add another element of like kind of like trying to sway a conversation in a certain way through questions or through certain ways that you things that you want to talk about. It can take away some of the authenticity of interaction, Not always, Obviously, But I think structure kind of takes away from us just being real people, Me being real with you and you being real with me. Yeah, Well, It's a it's a it's a non-dual dialectic. You can, Structures can help and structures can strangle. Yeah. And free flow can be creative and spontaneous and it can sometimes just be messy and indulgent. Yeah, Time and a place. Definitely time and a place. But, Yeah, Thank you very much, Doug Kraft for coming on. This was great. I'm definitely interested in some of your do you have any guided meditations online? I had these people who have been doing all the stuff we've been taped and put them out in the podcast. Yeah, I have those and actually a few of those. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know that there's many guided meditations in there. Because I tend to teach in a more traditional Buddhist style, Which really sort of allows people to flow where it goes. When I'm working with people mentoring them, I will actually sometimes guide them. So it's like two of us. But using group stuff like that. So that's a long answer. I don't know much of what the short answer is. I know what you mean. It's not like traditional. Probably. Yes, Probably. Go look for yourself. But yeah, Thank you very much, Doug Kraft. This was a great conversation. That's that's all I can really say. I'm eternally grateful for you coming on. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you. Well, Namaste. Have a good day.

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