The Pursuit Of Excellence & Ruthless Selfishness

Explore what “excellence” really means—beyond awards or outcomes—and how to practice it in everyday life. This conversation with Gabby Reece looks at the balance between ruthless self-care and being of service, the power of simple rituals, and the adaptability needed to meet changing seasons of life. You’ll hear candid reflections on relationships, parenting, and strengthening character by questioning unhelpful stories.

Come away with practical prompts like “What’s the point?” to help you focus your energy where it truly matters.

Transcript

What does it mean to pursue excellence,

And how can you practice more ruthless selfishness?

That's what we're going to explore today with Gabby Reese on The Wise Effort Show.

All right,

Welcome back.

I'm Dr.

Diana Hill,

So good to have you here,

And I'm super excited to share with you this episode with Gabby Reese.

I first met Gabby when Katie Bowman came to town,

My co-author on I Know I Should Exercise,

But Katie and Gabby are good friends,

And we drove down the coast,

Down the one along Malibu,

From Santa Barbara to Malibu,

To Gabby Reese's house,

Which was kind of wild.

It is a gorgeous house right up on the hillside of Malibu,

180 view of the ocean.

You go through these big gates,

And you enter in right smack into Gabby Reese's kitchen,

Where there he is,

Laird Hamilton,

Sitting at the counter,

And the first thing that Laird does is offer you a coffee.

So let me tell you a little bit about Gabby and Laird.

They're a power couple.

Gabby is a force.

She is a volleyball legend,

An inspirational health and fitness leader,

Podcast host,

Corporate speaker.

She's a New York Times best-selling author,

But really where she puts most of her energy is being a wife and a mother,

And sitting in a seat of integrity for herself,

As you will hear on this podcast.

She was Nike's first female spokeswoman.

When she was on the cover of Women's Sports and Fitness,

When she was named one of 20 most influential women in sports,

Someone asked why they picked Gabby for the issue cover,

And the magazine editor said,

Because I believe she represents,

Finally,

The answer to all the image-questioning pendulum swinging of the decades gone by.

She's everything once thought to be an inherent contradiction.

She's strong and beautiful,

Sweaty and feminine,

Tough and ladylike.

You will hear that on this show.

She's also a serial entrepreneur.

So when I drove down to Gabby Reese's for a second time,

She interviewed me about Wise Effort,

And then I got a chance to interview her.

And while I was driving down,

I was watching the waves because Malibu has pretty phenomenal surf.

The side of the road is just packed with cars.

There's like no parking spots for a few miles,

And it's just giant beaches packed with surfers.

So I'm watching the waves.

I'm wondering,

Is Laird out there?

I bet he's out there.

Laird Hamilton is a surfing legend,

Big wave surfer,

And they have this power couple dynamic,

Right?

I went down.

I parked at a parking lot and decided I was gonna go for a walk before the show.

There's a few formulas that I use before being interviewed or before interviewing someone else.

One piece of that formula is going for a walk outside.

It's a complete reset for me,

And it's really important for me in terms of my own performance.

That's why I was so excited to hear in this episode with Gabby that she has formulas for excellence too.

You'll hear what some of those are.

Another thing I did on the way down was call a good friend.

I'm a big fan of the extra-long 45-minute phone call to friends.

So I chatted with a friend on the way down.

These are my formulas.

What are your formulas?

I want you to think about that as you listen to Gabby on the show.

And then when I got to their house,

There is Laird wet at the kitchen counter welcoming me and offering me,

You guessed it,

A cup of coffee in his big Laird mug.

And it was the best cup of coffee I've had in a long time.

So we went for this double header.

You're listening to the second part of it when I'm interviewing Gabby,

And there is so much wisdom to be had.

So I want you to think about what formulas work for you in your life as you listen to this.

I also want you to think about what does it mean to you to be ruthlessly selfish?

What is strength in your eyes?

What does it mean to you to be strong?

And what does it mean to you to be of service?

All right,

Enjoy this conversation with the incredible Gabby Reese.

Gabby Reese,

I asked you what you wanted to talk about.

You said anything,

But then somehow you narrowed it on to the pursuit of excellence,

Which is sort of a big,

A big topic,

The pursuit of excellence in parenting,

Health,

Relationships.

Laird and I talk a lot about,

And maybe we learned it through sport,

Because it's just the most obvious kind of structured construct,

Where you get a lot of reps,

Is that so many things are formulaic in a certain way,

Even though you want to maintain your flexibility and adaptability,

Because adaptability being kind of one of the highest markers of performance or survival is to be adaptable.

So you want to have that adaptability and that flexibility,

But also you start to learn the formulas that you can put that template onto things,

Whether it's a new pursuit,

Or a relationship,

Or a response,

A business,

Things like that.

And a lot of the same things keep showing up when you're in that pursuit of excellence.

And I think when I think of excellence,

I don't mean,

It's not about a winning,

Or about a metric of success,

There's something more invisible for me,

As I've gotten older,

About the pursuit of personal excellence,

Which is like,

You're really trying in the real way,

Not because of outcome,

Not because you're looking for something in return,

But because it is the right way to do it.

And that is so quiet and so interesting to me.

Okay,

The right way to do it.

Give me an example of what that right way to do it would be.

Just how you move through the world.

So for example,

If I walked on the street,

I was just in New York City,

Right?

If I walked down the street,

I can look ahead and see people are going to need room,

Or a lady's coming with a baby carriage,

I'll move away out of the way long before they ever have to come to a place where they need to ask me to move or get out of the way,

Or I'm going to be in a situation where it could become a conflict with Laird,

Let's say,

Or I could choose to think about,

You know,

What would be the right way given what I'm hoping happens,

Which is probably peace and resolution,

But also understanding.

I'm not afraid of conflict,

But if at the end,

That's what I'm hoping for the situation,

That I could be thoughtful enough to pick a different phrase or a different word that would get us to that sooner.

It doesn't mean I have to compromise my boundaries or what I'm looking for.

But just by being a little more thoughtful or strategic or anticipate or alert,

That you could be moving through your life in a way that would allow you,

First of all,

Efficient energy,

Like you're talking about,

I'm not wasting energy everywhere,

Because I don't want to,

I don't have a lot of it.

And,

And then to become more masterful at all of whatever these things are in my work,

In my physical training,

In my food doesn't mean I don't eat bread,

It's just if it's contained to a place where that lady made it,

And it's homemade,

And so I'm choosing and I want it,

Not I'm starving,

And I'm mindlessly shoving it in my mouth.

So it's just the notion of that showing up throughout my days.

Yeah,

So what you're describing to me,

When you're describing pursuit of excellence,

Also seems like it what it does is it opens the door,

Also for others,

Or other situations to open up for you.

If you're pursuing excellence in your marriage,

You're not blocking him in his pursuit of excellence.

So it can be a little bit of that energetic flow,

As well in the way that you're describing it,

Which is different than what I would often think about with pursuit of excellence,

Because it kind of gives me a little bit of a vibe of like,

Oh,

Pursuing excellence means you're going to like,

Elbow everyone out of the way to be excellent,

You know,

Excellent,

Like when they used to put a check plus on your homework paper as a kid.

I mean,

Real,

Real excellence.

Yeah,

For me,

What the meaning of excellence is,

Which is like this,

You're,

You're,

Yes,

You are,

Of course,

In pursuit of your own dreams and,

And missions and all these other things,

As you'll simultaneously considering those around you.

Because I think I am a part of and whether I know you or not,

If I could move in a way in the world to certainly not encumber you,

Or make it even a little easier or better for you.

That deeply interests me.

So I often think that the true sign of someone is when the camera's off,

Right?

When you're not recording,

Right?

What happens in the 10 minutes in the in betweens?

What do they talk about?

How do they treat you?

Even just back and forth between us the way in which you're so true to your word,

You're like,

Yeah,

We'll do we'll do we'll do something and you made it happen in terms of us doing something.

The in betweens of Gabby Reese are the excellence.

But that's not just the Gabby Reese on the on the court.

Yeah,

That's right.

That's the fakie.

And so if I'm doing all these things for me to respect myself,

I have the opportunity to continue to build my true self esteem,

Because it's built in something real for me.

That is quiet,

And earned,

And true.

And I'll take that all day long.

I know about bravado.

I know about faking it till you make it.

I know about the flashy components of that,

You know.

I know about tricks,

How to turn up the internal self confidence,

Like you're in a high pressure situation,

Let's say in athletics,

How to block it all out and hone in.

I understand all that too.

And I can drive focus pretty good.

But the other thing I'm learning it,

And I have learned all along is that if I respect myself,

Having that intention to move through whether anybody notices or not that way,

I'm doing that for me.

And it really is a feedback that makes you feel really good,

Makes you feel like when you go to bed at night,

It's like,

Am I really trying to show up in my life in the way that I would respect and admire,

Not the way that I would get more attention for or accolades.

And that is more way more interesting to me than the other.

Has that always been there?

That feeling of respect for yourself?

Or is that something you developed later in life?

When I started modeling at 18,

And then playing volleyball and getting attention for this kind of external thing,

Yeah,

I realized that wasn't going to be the answer for me.

I knew that then that it was gonna that's why I love sports,

I was gonna have to work hard at it.

I couldn't phone it in,

I couldn't fake it.

Being a teammate working for a common goal,

All these other things felt so much truer to me.

That's what if that's the difference,

Maybe one feels more truthful,

And one just feels like an external thing that um,

Maybe you're just fortunate.

How do you know something feels truthful?

What's the inner experience for you?

This feels more truthful to me.

It's not as transient.

You know,

You win a game,

You win a point you people go,

Oh,

You're I like you.

It just goes poof.

But when you when you when you've pursued something in a way,

For me,

It always that's real.

It feels like a layer that you're put down in that you're layering into your,

Your being or your character,

It's just like a fine little layer.

And that you're building all those upon where the other just feels like a hit,

Like foot,

And it comes and goes.

I have always often felt that I was definitely a long game person,

I just am.

It was very hard to distract me even when I was young,

As far as like,

They're the best and they're the thing and they get the thing.

I never I never,

For whatever reason,

And I don't know if it's because I grew up in the Caribbean or what the story is.

I was like,

Yeah,

Yeah,

I get what that is.

But my gaze wasn't the most interested in that my gaze was always interested in people doing things for the sake of doing them.

So you weren't caught up in the despite being in these arenas that are quite flashy and have a lot of potential for getting caught up in that fashion.

The aspect of sport that's about winning and doing well and looking good and all of that.

Oh,

Yeah,

My whole career is based on all of it.

Yeah.

And then being married to a very influential person as well.

But you're over here the long game with the layers.

Yeah,

That interests me.

And Laird's very similar,

Actually.

Interesting.

Laird is is very,

Actually Laird is maybe even more so even even to a greater degree because he spends time in nature much more than I do.

And he's in the the element of the ocean.

It's kind of once you see something that feels really truthful to you,

You don't unsee it.

Yeah.

Especially if you're if you're kind of a more focused person,

I feel like a pretty focused person.

And so kind of ridiculously focused.

I mean,

Like when I'm with you,

You're 100% here.

Well,

It's funny that we talk about genius,

Though,

Right?

And this is something that in the right place in the right way.

It's good.

Yeah.

And then I'm learning still to be like,

Just be.

So that's something I'm always working on.

So yeah,

So I think,

And so it makes it easier,

Because I've also been in almost a 30 year relationship with somebody whose value on this,

Their note on this is pretty similar to mine separate from me.

So I,

As a psychologist,

I'm always paying attention to nonverbal behavior and verbal behavior and interactions.

And when I came into your house,

My eyes are open.

I can't help it.

I noticed an interaction between you and Laird,

That I think is an example of that.

The long playing the long form and the layering.

So we're getting ready to come back here.

Laird makes me his superfood coffee,

Which I came on caffeine.

I was like,

I was very deliberate.

I'm going to come on caffeinated because I know it's going to come.

He's going to ask you for a glass of water,

But that's not what I want.

I want that coffee.

And he's like,

Do you want the fat?

I'm like,

I want the fat.

He makes an amazing coffee.

But my mind is like,

Hey,

We're going to go back and do the interview.

And you,

He's sitting at the counter and you check in with him.

It's really brief,

But you check in with him about his surf.

And if you do that in a long term marriage,

And you do it enough,

You're layering in the foundation.

Was that automatic?

Is that something you are truly curious?

Like,

Hi,

I wonder how he's doing?

Or is it that you know,

This is the pursuit of excellence is like,

You got to stay tuned into your partner and not drop the ball just because you're at work or you're on to the next thing?

Yeah,

It's a great question.

I think I think there's many you use the word,

You know,

Sometimes like where I'm these things.

So I confess this.

So in the mornings,

When I come down in the morning,

I do it less now,

As far as the part I'll tell you,

I used to,

Because I can be pretty,

There's a monotonous sometimes to me,

Not up,

Not too down.

And I realized that wasn't really translating to the excitement I feel for Laird.

And Laird would see me and like,

He'd be like,

How's your day,

You know,

Whatever I drive in.

So I told myself,

Oh,

Okay,

What I would like him to understand is how excited I am to see him how deeply I love him.

So I'm going to show him that it's not natural to my behavior,

Because I'm interested in like,

You tell me what you want me to know.

I'm that kind of person,

I can talk very little if we need to,

I'm fine with that.

I come down in the morning,

I wrote about this years ago,

I call it shiny eyes.

The first thing when Laird sees me is I have a very big smile for Laird.

Good morning,

How did you sleep?

Because first of all,

It sets the tone for the day.

Second of all,

That is how I feel about him.

It is not a natural part of my personality to be overly animated.

In a certain way.

I learned that that was really important.

Now what you saw here today.

It's,

It's me having kind of a really short checklist of the things that are most important to me.

My children,

My self-care,

Laird,

And a few other things.

And so as I was going to get wrapped up into my own work,

I thought,

Oh,

Laird went surfing.

I wonder how that went for him.

Because I was sort of buttoning up leaving Laird and all the things that I wanted to make sure so he understood like what I was going to be doing for the next few hours.

What else would I need to button up?

Oh,

I could check.

I didn't know.

I forgot.

I didn't ask him about his surfing.

And so I think when we are taking these people or these situations in as something that is really a value of ours,

A real something important,

It'll,

It'll flow.

It'll,

It'll,

You'll do it.

Because you'll subconsciously be kind of being like,

Oh,

I'm going to leave the room.

I'm wrapping him up.

How do I,

Is he good?

Have I made sure?

Oh,

Yeah,

I was surfing.

Yeah.

So this is,

This is where your checklist genius is a benefit to you.

And it's,

It's,

It is,

I mean,

I guess you could say in some ways it's a formula,

Like what is the formula for excellence,

But it's a really beneficial one because if you have that on your mind and you repeat that over and over and over again,

It sounds like he,

He benefits from the,

The smile,

The smiling eyes,

The smiling presence,

The curiosity about him.

And he just gets enough.

I mean,

This was like when our kids were little and they used to say like,

Stop whatever you're doing,

Give them 50 minutes of your attention and it'll give you an hour and a half of free time.

It's true.

But if you put them off and put them off and put them off,

You're going to,

You know,

Nothing's getting done.

So you're feeding the relationship.

You said self-care kids and your relationship.

Those are sort of trifecta.

Yeah.

I mean,

For me,

The first I always say,

And it's,

I,

And I,

I've talked about this a lot more recently is the ruthless selfishness with Laird and I both because people go,

I mean,

You guys are still excited about each other and you seem to really like each other and all these things.

And I'm like,

Well,

First of all,

We're so both ruthlessly selfish.

So what does that look like?

That looks like we both will do the things that we need to do to make ourselves feel okay.

And we're so simple in this way,

Laird and I,

If I train and I have a creative outlet,

Like in my work.

So I feel like I have something that's just not my own.

I'm not somebody's mother.

I'm not somebody's wife.

I don't even always just want to be a woman.

I just want to be this essence,

This being that's like doing something.

Right.

And so if I have that and I have my movement practice and when my kids were little,

By the way,

Could have been super short.

Now I am ready to be of service to everybody and everything.

And what that typically looks like is Laird and I,

Because you know,

The house is built upon,

Right?

The peace,

The communication,

The love is built upon pretty much on that relationship first,

Even though of course our kids take a precedence that it's just happens pretty easily.

And,

And then it's,

It's my children because oftentimes I can see the temptation of putting them first.

And I have,

I listen,

I've had newborns.

I've done that where I don't sleep for years.

I get all that.

But,

But at the sake of losing yourself,

When you have the opportunity to kind of reel it back in,

That's why I think a lot of people,

Especially women feel frustrated and angry when their kids get older.

Everyone's moved on.

What about me?

I did all this stuff for you.

And so I was too selfish and I kind of could see that,

That that could happen.

And I thought,

You know,

I don't really want to be mad.

And also I have no one to blame but myself if I let that happen,

If I can see it.

So those are the things for me,

I keep my,

It's a pretty short and easy list.

And then there's stuff that floats below that's fun and entertaining.

They kind of has some bells and whistles aspect,

But I don't over complicate it.

It's those things and way down is other things.

You know,

Like I like an organized house,

You know,

All the things,

But it's,

It's me,

My self-practice,

This relationship with Laird and,

And my friends and,

And my kids and my,

My family,

My,

My friends.

Can we dig into each of those just a tiny bit more?

Like in terms of what that,

The selfish ruthlessness?

It's ruthless.

Yeah.

Because I know I will go down if,

If I don't,

If I don't actually have that attitude towards it because it can,

It's so easy for it to be overtaken by like,

Oh,

And then this and that and the schedule and somebody else's need.

Cause I,

The impulse to serve is big.

So that's why I use the word ruthless.

Cause I have to actually do it with myself too.

What does it look like?

Like,

What would I see you doing when you're,

Is it definitely around my training schedule?

Yeah.

It's like,

Hey,

Listen,

No matter what,

No matter what,

Unless listen,

There's either work or kid has a thing.

Right.

You have to have some flexibility.

You're like,

Sorry,

I'm not going to miss your school performance.

Yeah.

But if it's,

It's,

You know,

Pretty much everybody that knows me knows at eight or eight 30 on a Monday,

Wednesday,

Friday,

They kind of know where I'm going to be.

And if I can do on Tuesday,

Thursday as well,

That it's a different kind of training.

They sort of know what that looks like.

Those are my days to be more flexible.

Yeah.

What are you doing?

Um,

I do a hit training for about an hour on Monday,

Wednesday,

And Friday.

And I have friends that they're invited to come.

They can come and train with me.

Um,

But I sort of schedule my work and my life accordingly.

My kids know what my husband knows that now,

If a kid has a thing at nine on Monday,

Then so be it.

Or if I have a photo shoot and it's a real job,

So be it no problem.

But the way I structure my life is that,

You know,

I'm tethered to these tentacles that have enough,

Um,

Kind of repetition in these things that I can make progress.

Because if I don't have this,

If I don't have enough consistency in how I'm eating well,

Trying to get to bed and trying to move my body,

I can't continue to make progress if I'm all over the place.

Exactly.

And the difference between ritual versus routine.

Yeah.

Ritual means that there's a repetition which our body and mind loves and craves,

But it's repetition that's associated and connected to the sacred.

And I could imagine that your ritual around eight 30 can be rich,

Can be a ritual.

It's like,

Yeah,

Then it becomes then the manifestation of the mother that comes out of that.

And when you don't do that,

When you're not ruthless about it,

You may become ruthless.

You said you,

It takes you down.

So what's the down?

Like,

What does it look like when it,

When you're not doing that?

Or do you just always do it?

So you're not in there in a long time.

Yeah,

I do it.

I have them.

Yeah.

That's why I don't freak out on the days it doesn't happen.

Cause I have so many hours in the,

In the jar.

Um,

Oh yeah.

I mean,

I've first time I lifted was 1987.

I,

Uh,

Became a professional athlete in 1992.

And I would say it probably hasn't stopped since then since definitely not since 92.

It's not a gift.

It really is.

That's why it's something that I feel that space.

I feel so passionate about because for whatever good fortune for me and my life's path that this was got baked in early.

And so I haven't had to pick it up.

And so that's why I'm so interested in finding ways to help encourage people to invite them for them to find the way to either continue improve upon or actually start.

What wasn't baked in?

Oh gosh.

So many things weren't baked in.

I think,

Um,

You know,

The relationship part was not baked in.

Right.

I,

Uh,

I didn't live with my parents from age two to seven.

So I live with a couple that grew up with my mom,

Like neighborhood friends.

So what happens is,

And this is,

This is not a,

This is just information.

This isn't something I,

I,

I,

That's stings in any way is when you're a kid who's not with their parents at two years old,

You learn to be somebody who's pretty self-reliant,

Even if it means emotionally,

Right?

Like you're pretty self-contained you're hypervigilant.

Uh,

So you're,

You know,

You're clocking everything all the time people you're anticipating.

I think if I want to get there,

I'll have three ways to get there.

Like you get,

You get,

There's a lot of good things that can come out of that.

And so what happened is when I entered into a relationship with,

Uh,

My husband at 25,

As then my boyfriend,

I didn't actually know about relying on another person or being willing to be vulnerable.

So that certainly was not baked in.

We had to almost get divorced when I was 30.

Um,

And Laird's quite the opposite,

You know,

He's,

He,

Well,

He's well,

But he's so,

Uh,

Open about all his feelings.

He's happy to tell you that he loves you.

I said actually for the first five years of our relationship,

It was like Laird was there with head on the guillotine,

Looking at me like,

Are you,

Are you going to join me on this endeavor?

Or,

You know,

And I was always too scared.

Uh,

He's certainly much braver than me at that,

Uh,

Very heart-based,

Very,

You know,

And so I had to,

To learn that to love and to live is scary.

And that,

Um,

But the alternative was worse.

It was like a cold and very organized,

Quiet death.

And I was not interested in that.

I was interested in the messy and the uncomfortable and like the colors and you know,

The kind of the unknowing and that I had somebody that seemed like it was a really good idea to bet on to give that a go with.

And so at 30,

Probably 31,

I,

I decided to be different.

And,

Uh,

And even to learn how to say to somebody what you want or your need or what you don't like.

I was never even willing to do that because that's a vulnerability.

And so I had to really learn how to articulate those things.

And,

Uh,

And I learned even to apologize.

That was never baked in because I didn't grow up in a way that it was safe to,

I didn't trust anyone.

So around me,

So I wasn't actually looking for their feedback.

So I had to learn in my marriage to be like,

Oh,

I did this wrong.

And I'm sorry.

And like,

Okay.

Versus because I didn't have the adults,

I didn't trust them.

I didn't want to say I was sorry because that was then opening the door for some kind of opinion.

And I was like,

Yeah,

No,

No,

I'm not trusting you guys for any of that.

So there were so many things,

Um,

That I I've learned and continue to learn to put into my practices and,

And into my behavior.

Um,

That didn't come naturally.

It's not interesting how,

If you,

If you kind of get lucky in some ways,

Or maybe we choose that we choose someone because our subconscious knows that we need to learn that.

And they have the,

They're like the practice ground for us to learn the stuff that's not baked in similar stuff with my partner.

And,

Uh,

You get to bake it in,

In your adult,

Adult years,

We have to be open to it.

And you have to be open to the learning process of you at 25 with Laird is different than you now with Laird,

There's been growth that's happened with each other.

And then I imagine he chose you because you had some things for him to learn as well.

What do you think that like,

What was he learning from you?

You're learning vulnerability from him.

Sure.

With Laird.

Um,

I think my,

My steadiness and I don't go up and down with him,

You know,

He's much more emotional,

Which is good for me,

Right?

If the two of us were together,

It'd be like sleepy time.

So this sort of big emotion,

You know,

It's like,

And,

Uh,

It's,

It certainly has kind of the window has become more narrow as far as like the up and the down.

But,

Um,

I think having somebody who helps,

I think part of why I was put into Laird's life was to help him pursue or express a dream of his.

So to have an ally in his corner that really is I'm here and I'm thinking about you and I'm here to strategize about how you can do the thing you really love even more,

If I can participate in that.

And I like believe in your mission.

I think that gave Laird like a calmness because he was always fighting,

You know,

Like he,

He grew up in Kauai.

Um,

He,

I think he had a very good mother.

And so he had that love of a,

Of a really good mother.

So he's had people in his corner,

But I think as a grownup to have somebody who,

And a steady,

Like you,

You were in a bad mood,

Like,

Uh,

It's okay.

Like,

I don't gonna knock you and I don't have to go there with you.

I don't,

I'm not going to get in a bad mood.

And also I learned later,

And this was really important because I didn't know this early.

I didn't,

I used to walk around on eggshells,

Which then harbored resentment.

And then I started,

I stopped doing that when we decided not to get divorced.

So I'd act normal.

Like,

He'd be like stomping around and like frustrated there's no surf and like,

Whatever the things are that make Laird,

Laird.

And I'd be like,

Okay,

Are you,

You know,

You want something to eat?

So I just,

Not that I would ignore it.

And then if it went on sometimes maybe too long,

I would be like,

You know,

How much longer is this going to go on?

Or,

You know,

It's,

It's kind of going on for a while,

But never taking it personal.

Later in the beginning,

I certainly was like,

If you love me more,

You wouldn't knock like that,

Which is ridiculous.

Just learning,

Like,

Going back to that genius ideas that you talk about,

The thing that passion of Laird,

That up and down is tethered,

Connected.

I can draw a straight line to 90 attributes that I adore about him.

So I think he learned and,

And having a family with him,

Right,

We have three daughters,

Laird came with a four month old,

And then we had two more is I call it male wisdom.

I've watched Laird be tempered by our family,

By our daughters.

And so between the ocean and his family,

I see a deep wisdom in him and a patience and an acceptance to like all that is that you understand and don't understand that I so appreciate because I don't have that.

Right?

I'm I don't have the same thing of him dealing literally with like,

People like women,

Yeah.

And the ocean,

The feminine,

You know,

It's like,

I think the ocean has a straightforwardness,

But it's like,

The ability to just be like,

Yeah,

Okay.

And be okay with just having really no idea.

You know,

Teenage girls like,

You know,

It's like he you don't understand always,

And being still and letting them do the thing.

I think,

Oh,

This guy has some male wisdom that I really it's,

It's very still and deep and,

And loving and has a sense of humor.

You know,

And,

And I really appreciate it.

Well,

I can imagine.

So you were describing his,

His emotionality,

And then how that,

You know,

Is connected to all the things that you love about him,

And then your sort of balanced,

Calm,

Connected to the things he loves about you.

But then the flip side of that,

Those are things that can tip each other's boat,

Right?

So if you're coming in just sort of calm and even he's like,

Wait,

Pay attention to me.

But you know,

Where's the Yeah,

You know,

Aliveness.

And so we're having to make adjustments to also offer our partners what we know feeds them.

And we get to learn that.

Like,

What's,

What's the end game?

How hard would it be for me to make it just a little better for you,

Or a lot better for you.

And I know this from training,

If I work in my life in general,

20% harder,

I make it 80% easier down the backside.

And I think that's true pretty much across the board.

For me to put a little extra effort,

It man,

It makes it way easier on the backside.

And so I talked about the formula.

I really,

I really have seen that over and over again,

That I'm willing,

I can unquestionably just put the effort in.

Okay,

So then how does that translate into parenting?

Because sometimes putting we were talking about sort of enmeshment and sometimes putting that we think we're putting the effort in,

But what we're doing is like meddling and getting too in it.

And with three girls,

You showed me pictures of these girls walking down the streets of New York.

Yeah,

From behind.

Yeah,

That's all their faces.

Yeah.

They are forces.

Yeah.

Forces.

So what does that look like?

What's the formula there?

And this is helpful.

I always like talking to I like talking to people with three kids versus two.

I have two.

So I think when you have three kids,

You have another level that you're dealing with.

Yeah.

And then I also like talking to people that have kids that are just like slightly older than mine,

Because you you have the wisdom of like,

Oh,

Yeah,

I've been through that.

And I kind of know what's coming.

It's so calm.

I mean,

It's it's not that it's complicated.

Now.

It's so interesting for me as a parent.

So I can tell you this.

So when they become teenagers,

You sort of get better,

Typically with each one.

Yeah.

Like you said,

You've worked with teenagers.

So you understand some of the things already.

Yeah.

When you haven't,

You're sort of your each kid is sort of a as a teacher,

Right?

So I learned a lot with each with each girl.

And so I by nature,

I'm not a meddler.

I'm not because and sometimes this I have to be careful we parent in ways of what we wanted.

And I am very independent person.

So my thing is like,

I want to have really clear and direct conversations.

I want it to feel like it's genuine and real.

I don't need to have a lot.

You don't need to ask me a lot of questions.

Like if I want you to know something,

I'll I'll tell you.

I'm probably not going to ask you a ton of questions.

But I might say to you,

Hey,

I'm interested.

So if there's anything you want to share,

Because I'm not good at probing on people,

It doesn't feel good to me.

And and then my thought was,

Oh,

I'm here to help guide them to learn to manage their own lives.

So how can I do that?

One,

I can be a good example.

The most powerful thing.

If I want you to eat a certain way,

I want you to move a certain way.

I want you to treat yourself a certain way.

I want you to treat others a certain way.

Let me model that for you.

Let me show you how I walk down the streets Yes,

That's right.

And so for me,

It was always that.

But being there,

Letting them know I was going to be so steadfast for them because it go back to my own childhood wounds.

Can you imagine how much this means to me to get this right.

And the amount of parental insecurity that I had coming into it was amplified because I have friends who let's say they came from a home where the parents were really loving and they knew how to discipline correctly.

Then they go,

Oh,

Well,

I have the confidence to do both at the same time.

Well,

Because I was in my mind abandoned on some level.

And because I have a really direct personality and the perception on me is that I have this,

I'm kind of tough,

I'm kind of all these things.

I was super insecure as a mom,

That I just wanted to make sure that they understood how loved they they were,

Which,

You know,

Girls,

They'll use that against you later when they get older,

They'll manipulate the right securities.

Yeah.

And so they'll leverage you in certain ways.

They're clever.

And you can even watch it know what's happening and be like,

Oh,

God.

So,

So I had that coming in.

So I thought,

Okay,

I'll be their dad and I we show what it looks like to be as healthy as we can be as a couple.

And I don't mean physically healthy,

You know,

Conflict resolution,

Not tons of,

You know,

Yelling and screaming in this house,

A clean home,

A safe home.

But there is a part of me that wants to be left alone.

And so I did that to a degree,

Especially as I got older,

Like,

Hey,

Listen,

I want to respect your privacy.

I understand.

But then,

For example,

My middle daughter,

Maybe needed me to lean in just a little more.

So I had to learn that when she became about 13.

She sort of verbalized that in some fashion when we went through something with her,

Which was like,

I need you to lean in more.

And my youngest,

Everything's at face value.

But don't you think that because of your insecurity,

You were almost more aware of each one of those differences,

Right?

So sometimes if we're so secure in something,

We're like,

I'm so secure in my parenting,

I'm so secure in how I look,

We don't notice like,

No,

You're kind of off here,

Right?

Or you have some you have some work to do.

This is the I think this is the benefits of insecurity.

We all think it's being insecure is like a bad thing.

Yeah.

But sometimes having a little insecurity can motivate you to actually excel.

So maybe you've excelled in some of your parenting above and beyond what all of your secure friends that had all this cure,

Relating environments did because you were tuned in.

And that's going to look different for each one of these kids.

And because you know,

This having two children,

And anybody knows this having any kids,

Being willing,

The greatest line that I know,

I'll take a look at it,

I can take a look at that is at 13.

When my middle daughter who's now almost 22 said,

Hey,

That doesn't work for me,

Me being willing to say,

I don't have the tools,

I'm super disappointed in myself.

And in this situation,

It hurts a lot.

And okay,

I'm willing to take a look at this and make changes.

Because now at almost 22,

I have a very close relationship with her.

So it doesn't mean I was perfect.

Yeah.

But she also gave me the chance.

I want to remind people if your kids are verbalizing to you,

And it feels like criticism,

They're actually giving you a huge chance.

They're actually doing you a favor.

And so instead of being like,

Oh,

It's a dagger to my heart that I'm paralyzed,

Be like,

What they're doing is actually this is they're creating a opportunity for real closeness.

That is uncomfortable,

Really uncomfortable for me.

And I'm excited because they're giving me this chance.

Yeah,

The benefits of kids is that they have fresh eyes.

They have beginners minds.

We've been seeing it our way for x number of years,

They're seeing it new.

And so when they're giving us feedback,

It's from this perspective,

Like,

You know,

If you take them,

Whatever,

You take them to Europe for the first time in New York for the first time,

They're seeing everything new and fresh.

They're seeing you as a parent new and fresh.

That feedback can be the best feedback you've ever received in your life,

Because it's usually very true on target.

It doesn't mean that you have to change everything.

It's one view in on many views.

But yeah,

Yeah,

It's great for that.

My middle daughter is the reason I know who Byron Katie is.

I met Byron,

I met Katie,

Because of Viola.

And when she was very young,

She went to an eight day program of Katie's.

And we were introduced to Katie through a friend of And so you can imagine that my thinking on a few things really had an opportunity to change based on Viola.

And,

And,

And also,

You know,

I understood very quickly,

The kid is not broken.

It's like,

You know,

Parents will think,

Oh,

Drop the kid off,

Fix the kid,

We'll be back.

I was like,

Okay,

This kid's going through something.

And also,

Obviously,

I need to make some changes.

And so I met Katie and,

And,

And that,

That was like a thread getting pulled that took away a knot.

So quickly,

Like you said,

You know,

We can change instantly,

That I thought,

Oh,

I could look at a lot of things differently in my life.

You know,

She said to Laird and I once,

Oh,

Sweetie,

You know what the good news is,

She's either going to choose to do it or she's not.

And she's like,

And you know what the bad news is,

She's either going to choose to do it or she's not.

And so talk about a lesson for a parent when we really think we're just trying to control everything because we're scared and all these things.

It's like,

Man,

Don't bother,

You know that.

And oh,

Yeah,

She says to me one time,

I don't,

I'm never in good company when I'm up in here.

And she pointed to her head.

So I think there was just so many things through my daughter and through just that small experience,

Which ends up being huge.

That I mean,

That was like layers and layers of a veil getting taken off.

Yeah,

Well,

There's these parallel evolutions that I think happened between us and our children,

Because our children are doing their own evolution,

Which that kind of evolved past us,

Of course,

At some point,

You hope.

But then they're also forcing us to evolve,

To keep up with their evolution.

So you just see it.

And especially during adolescence,

That's when it starts to,

I mean,

Even early on,

It starts to show up.

So your daughter's bringing Byron Katie into the field,

The force field of your life,

Which is she needed to for her evolution.

But then because you're tethered,

Because you're connected,

It's forcing you to evolve.

And then that's the gift,

Right?

It's just how much they become our teachers.

Yeah.

And I think it's,

It's sort of also like this idea of simple best practices,

Right?

Can I show you?

Can I accelerate some learning for you on some simple,

Basic principles on how to live,

How to care for yourself,

Clean,

Keep yourself clean,

Love yourself,

To receive love,

To keep you safe,

To let you know as you're developing,

You have a safe place to go to,

To know your,

That we believe in you that,

You know,

No matter where you go in the world,

Or Matt,

No matter who you choose to be,

That you have two people that just love you.

And I feel like then the rest is the other way is them teaching us like,

Hey,

I'm going to introduce you to the world that you live in now.

And I'm going to show you other concepts that maybe your parents didn't show you,

Or you haven't experienced as an adult,

Like a Katie,

Who,

You know,

The work has been very profound for me.

So I think the parents like we do some baseline stuff,

So that it's that right fertile ground for them to grow however best way they can grow.

And then really,

It's them teaching us what is what is the work from Katie that you use now?

Like,

How do you apply it?

Well,

I mean,

Listen,

Just asking yourself if it's true,

Right,

The narratives,

If I,

The minute I start moving into any narrative,

I can nip it so quickly now,

Because is it true?

It's like,

Oh,

Here,

Here you go again,

You know,

And,

And that,

And that idea of like,

You know,

Who would I be when I,

You know,

Without those thoughts,

I want to get to there.

Like,

I want to get to her.

I want to be like,

Yeah,

Be cool.

I'd be chill.

I'd be relaxed.

I'd be thoughtful,

I would not be reactive,

I would,

I would,

I would be more creative,

I'd be more loving.

So sometimes I just start and I go,

Is that true?

And then I just,

And that gets me right to the end of like,

You know,

Who I'm interested in being,

I think,

I think,

You know,

When I also talk about the pursuit of excellence,

I'm really interested in genuine strength.

And I don't mean like,

Oh,

How much,

You know,

Weight do you lift?

I'm talking about like some kind of strength of resolve of character of like,

I can respond the way I'm hoping or I'm wanting versus I it's being chosen for me,

I get to choose.

For me,

This kind of strength has always really intrigued me strength of character strength of,

You know,

Honesty,

Even when it's inconvenient,

You know,

Learn,

I talk about being able to say no,

When you can't afford to,

Like all the things that so when I talk about pursuit of excellence,

Those are all the things that are baked in there for me.

And so I think the practice of the work is that distance between like stimulus and response gets even bigger.

But when I by using that,

So I can choose,

Right,

So there's,

There's sort of the two parts to it,

Which is being able to catch the story,

Drop the story,

Question the story,

The story is not the truth,

Necessarily.

And then when you do that,

What arises,

Which is the genuine strength underneath that.

And that's what you appreciate.

That's what you're tuning fork to Byron Katie is,

Is that,

You know,

That kind of energy,

Like,

Oh,

I want that I want to embody that.

And there's,

There's that resonance,

I think tuning forks and resonance is really important energetically,

Because our body knows our psyche knows that piece,

And then we can get off track from it.

So whether it's in parenting,

Or with your partner,

Or in your health,

Your body knows your psyche knows what is what is like,

Genuine strength with your health as well.

And you've figured out some formulas to align in lots of ways.

And I think there's a part of my tuning fork that doesn't respond to anyone who acts like they know,

Ouch.

I don't,

Yeah,

I don't,

I don't know what it is.

And so when we talk about Katie,

But it's meanwhile,

Like,

I'll follow you.

I'm a very good student.

And I always said,

I'm super coachable.

So if you're presenting me as prepared,

You know,

Sort of informed enough,

Like if you feel dialed in,

I'll follow you.

I'm,

I'm,

I will follow because I'm interested in learning.

And if somebody knows something ahead of me,

I'm like,

I'm down to listen and learn.

But if someone doesn't act like it is a changing story,

Or somebody goes,

Now,

Okay,

You might get into the nuance of a sport or a principle like the truth,

Where they go,

Hey,

Listen,

This is the best way to do it.

There's some when I hear that.

And I understand what that's rooted in.

Not I know,

This is best,

But like this shows up.

Yeah,

There's a pattern here that's repeated over time with lots of it shows up.

Okay,

That's different.

Yeah.

But when I know some when somebody is like,

I let me tell you I know,

And here's the only way I am allergic to that inside of me.

So it's an interesting thing.

So when Katie says things like,

I don't have answers,

But I have a lot of questions.

That is that is way more powerful to me than somebody who's like,

I'm gonna tell you to be but I don't mind it in patterns way at all.

Because that just shows me like,

I've got some experience.

And,

You know,

Let me show you like,

This seems to be like 80% of the time,

It's sort of this is how it is.

Well,

The Venn diagram of those two is the is the sign of wisdom,

Because Katie has a pattern,

Katie has a formula,

She does,

Right.

And it's a very clear,

You follow this formula.

And Katie has the openness and the questioning.

And I don't know.

So when you put those two together,

Yeah,

That's sort of this,

That's sort of the sweet spot,

Because you don't want to be out at sea.

No,

Right?

You want to be able to see the,

Okay,

I can see the shoreline,

But I'm also out at sea.

But you know what I've said about her,

Because I've spent a lot of time with her.

Yeah,

Like I even went on a holiday where we weren't like talking about anything.

No,

You had this whole Katie Byron.

Oh,

Yeah.

I said to my friend who grew up with her.

He's young,

But he his mom,

And I said,

She's the most fixed and the most movable at the same time.

And one time she we sitting at a very small table.

It's one of my favorite stories.

And we're sitting at a small table and Laird's there.

And Steven is there,

Her husband,

And I think my friend,

Elijah,

And myself,

Small table.

And she says that all anger,

We're talking and she's like,

Oh,

We're talking about,

You know,

Anger comes from fear.

Right?

And I thought about it.

I go,

Yeah,

That seems true.

And then after about 15 seconds,

Laird goes,

Katie,

No,

Maybe mostly,

But when I'm angry,

I'm not scared,

I'm actually angry.

And I thought,

And so I didn't say anything,

But I know Laird very well.

And I knew that to be true,

Actually.

Because this is a person who has been in a lot of situations that they're fearful,

Or been afraid.

And so they have a different relationship.

And she thought about it.

And she went,

Yes,

In your case,

I can see that.

But it was just so funny.

She's movable.

She is because to your point,

The most fixed because if you do those worksheets,

Right,

She'll work you right back to the same formula over and over and over.

Yeah.

But then there's a complete openness.

Yeah.

And that for me is so interesting.

This is to strive for.

That's excellence.

Oh,

That's excellent.

Yeah,

Isn't it when you're around people like that?

Because you you have that embodied strength that you're talking about,

Which is like you got the formula,

You know,

It works.

You've done it a million times,

You've got it dialed.

But you're also open to drop it any minute if you need to,

Because you're open.

Yeah,

You're adaptable.

Yeah.

And that high that what is it,

Alfred Adler's whole thing about like,

Listen,

At the end of the day,

We're we have to be of service.

So if I'm really interested in real strength,

Then I have to also have a have that one of my greatest values,

Even if it's to my family or to whatever,

Is to have the attitude to be of service,

Wherever I can,

Big or small.

And not to make that an inconvenience to me,

But to make that be a part of the way that you live.

And so and,

And that is a strength to me not like I'm so strong.

I'm tough.

I'm those things.

It's like,

No,

Man,

Like that you that's what you're doing.

And,

And you're in your legs,

Like,

You're not,

You know,

A welcome mat.

You're,

You have your real estate,

Like,

You're in your,

Your own self power.

But that's where you're operating.

Like,

That's always been really,

Really compelling to me.

So here's what's compelling,

As you're talking about a paradox of selfishness,

And service,

That those are two things that you are 100% standing behind.

100.

And those,

That's how I,

Those two things help me look for the excellence.

Yeah.

Because I get to be honest with myself.

And that selfishness,

And I get to ask myself,

What do you need?

What's going to support you?

How can you get it done?

What do you want?

And then simultaneously,

That has created so much more room for me to do those other things.

Jim quick,

Do you know that?

So he said,

You know,

We're all walking around with a question in our minds.

Well,

Like a leading question,

He goes,

For example,

If you met a girl,

If I told you a story of a woman or girl that was going to come to a party,

And when she was going there,

Her leading question was,

I hope they like me,

You know a lot about her.

And I and he goes,

Do you know what your leading question is?

And I go,

Absolutely.

What is the point?

That is my leading question.

What's the point?

Sometimes it just makes everything super clear.

Like,

I don't want to meander and bullshit around.

And is this serving me?

And so when people in pursuit of wellness,

I'm like,

Everybody is getting caught up on having to be perfect or hit the bullseye.

And I'm like,

Just head that way.

So if you get up,

And you're tired,

But you you don't really want to work out hard,

Hard.

Could you walk?

Could you ride your bike?

Could you just head that way?

It doesn't have to be perfect.

Can you head that way?

If you're eating food?

Is it sort of going to bring you to the neighborhood that you say you're trying to go?

Just head that way.

And stop worrying about my macros,

My micros,

My protein grams.

It's like,

You're not that good yet.

Like,

That's the other thing too.

Everyone's measuring everything.

And listen,

If it gamifies,

And it gets people to sort of start to have a sensitivity,

And they get tuned in,

And that's fine.

But my hope actually,

Is that we go back to understanding how we feel.

How do I feel when I eat this?

What does my body?

How does it react?

Am I gassy?

Do I get energy?

Do I feel sleepy?

How do we feel so that we can go back into ourselves and not farm it out to the world?

But if that start gets you going,

And you get motivated,

Then so be it.

But I am a big believer in like,

I want to know how I feel.

And I think there's a bit of the Byron Katie teaching there of having the formula,

Figuring out the thing.

I mean,

I think we don't want to keep on having to figure it out.

You can have some certain formulas like at 830 is when you work out.

Yes.

And being willing to drop it and change because your body is going to change,

You are going to change,

Your lifestyle is going to change.

Maybe you're moving from having kids.

I remember when I had young kids,

I was so active.

I was ridiculously active.

I didn't have to really think about moving around in my day.

And now I'm like,

Wow,

I really do need to move more in my day.

So same thing with food.

With kids,

I was rarely sitting down to eat.

I had to focus on sitting down to eat.

I don't have to worry about that now.

I can actually sit down and eat my meals.

So it changes.

And we need to be flexible and change with our plan.

But I love the what's the point?

What's the point?

What's the point?

Yeah.

Because I think about that if I'm on my phone too long,

Or I'm looking at social media,

I'm like,

What's the point?

Like,

What are you doing?

And so it's a big driver,

But I have to be careful because it's a pretty harsh question.

I mean,

It's pretty harsh.

Sometimes I'm even in certain dynamics,

Friendships,

Whatever.

I'm like,

I got to get out of here.

We're spinning tires here.

Even if it's for me to go be alone.

Yeah.

Well,

For me,

What's the point is an energy question of what's the point of me putting energy here?

And if you have a good point,

Then put the energy there.

If you don't have a good point,

Then put the energy elsewhere.

So my driver is what's the point?

And it's on all the time.

And it doesn't need to have some giant answer,

But it needs to understand.

Okay,

So what's the point right now?

We'll dial into the present.

Like,

What's the point right now of you having this conversation?

What's the point for you?

What's the point for me with this conversation with you is one,

I trust you and I appreciate the work that you do.

Like I see the value in the things that you're sharing with people and trying to see if they can incorporate some of these ideas.

So that's good enough for me.

It doesn't,

Remember,

It doesn't have to be a strategic thing.

It just has to have a principle,

A value in there that I wholeheartedly believe in.

And if it has that,

That's the biggest point of all.

Yeah.

It's not about a return.

What's the point?

It's about understanding like,

Is there a value,

One of the things I believe in?

Because a good laugh,

By the way,

I could sit with my girlfriends and bullshit around.

Yeah.

There's,

I get that point a hundred percent.

Yeah.

Getting your fashion videos from your daughter and.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Such a point.

Such just to even be thought of and that,

And that's the other thing.

I'm in those ways.

I'm actually pretty simple.

It's not so complicated.

Like when I go to big events and I've been,

I've been to some pretty big events and I'll,

I will ask for that too.

And a lot of times the reason is harder to find.

Oh yeah.

You know,

Why am I putting my energy here?

Yeah.

And it's a big,

A little elaborate whole thing.

And then I think,

Oh,

It's harder to find the reason in those than sitting here talking with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sometimes the points are the more simple ones that it's,

Especially when your life gets as big as your life has gotten.

I could imagine that that requires you to ask that question more often.

Cause you could just let it explode.

It get big and do all the things.

And then.

Well,

In the discipline.

Yeah.

Right.

To know like the confidence to know what really feeds your,

Your soul and to know it's okay to not be,

To miss it,

To miss the other things cause they don't.

So you get a real stillness in knowing that,

Uh,

You missed most things.

I missed most,

I say no,

No to most things because I know going to bed or sitting with Laird or being with my girls over dinner is going to be way more beneficial to me.

And,

Uh,

And so you just have to have the confidence.

And sometimes like you go,

Hey,

I got to,

Um,

I read something recently where the guy was also talking about circulating.

Like if you want to make new things happen,

You have to be circulating.

You have to be seeing people and meeting people.

And I thought I need to hear that because I,

I,

I tucked in so hard to my discipline,

To my family,

To my thing,

Then unless it was specifically work related,

I was like,

I'm good.

And when he said that,

I thought,

Yep.

Okay.

Because now my kids got the youngest kids gone.

So it's like,

I do have things I want to do.

So I understand that what's the point of circulating is that I'm trying to generate more energy and that I,

I do need to connect with more people.

Um,

And so to trust in that.

Yeah.

So it's,

So there's a time and a place,

But it's not all the time.

Yeah.

It's a both.

And I was at my,

One of my mentors is Trudy Goodman.

She's,

You know,

I know who she is.

So it was her 80th birthday this past weekend.

And she had this thing with,

It was her and Jack's,

Jack Kornfield's 80th birthday.

And like all the Buddhist greats were there.

So it was like Tara Brock and Joseph Goldstein.

They were on video,

But,

Um,

Dan Harris was the person that was leading the conversation and,

Um,

John Kabat-Zinn chimed in.

So it was like all the Sharon Salzberg,

It was all the greats.

Right.

And,

Uh,

And Trudy was in the middle and,

Uh,

She was,

She had these great one pointers as she always does.

But,

But one of them was that about true wisdom,

Being able to hold two opposites at the same time.

Right.

So you can hold the opposite of,

I need to circulate more.

And what's the point in circulating?

I need to be,

You know,

I need to be home and prioritize like the time with my family.

You can hold both.

And that,

That flexibility of really the flexibility of mind to hold two things,

Two opposites,

Seemingly opposites to be true,

I think is one of our,

Like that is strength.

Yeah.

That is wisdom.

So you're doing that.

I have a daughter,

My same daughter who has learned much earlier than I have about like the opposite of this,

You know,

It's sort of like good and evil.

It's like,

They're the same thing,

Just the opposites of one another.

Yeah.

And so she,

You can't,

She's sort of unflappable in certain things because she's like,

Yeah,

It's,

It's the same thing.

Yeah.

And I'm like,

Oh yeah,

You're right.

Cause I,

You know,

I can get wound up about like,

How could this be happening or this or that?

And she's like,

Well,

It's the same as just the other extreme of it.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Laird has taught me that too.

He said to me once,

You know,

I,

I realize cause he was going through it,

You know,

He,

He does have a specific thing he's on a mission for and it doesn't show up often.

The waves aren't big often,

You know,

And he said,

You know,

I,

I'm well aware of how fortunate I am,

How blessed I am.

I love my family so deeply and I'm really frustrated.

And I thought it's fair.

Yeah.

Cause we beat ourselves up.

We don't think,

Oh,

Am I appearing ungrateful?

No,

I am grateful,

But I'm agitated.

I think I want something here where I I'm looking for something or I'm dreaming for something.

It doesn't mean I need to be perpetually in that state,

But in this moment I can still understand how incredibly fortunate I am,

But I'm in the agitation too.

And I think a lot comes out of that.

Yeah.

That's the sitting at the back of the heart we talked about.

I love that.

Yeah,

That's good.

Okay.

Gabby Reese,

Some of the key points,

I'm kind of storing them away in my mind as you were talking.

Um,

Key point number one is asking ourselves what's the point.

That's the big,

Um,

Message that I'm taking away from.

And there's no right answer.

It's just for you just to ask the question,

Let it drop into your body.

You don't even have to have an answer,

But just what's the point.

And then maybe your body will tell you it's not this or it is this stay or go or.

Because even in that,

That conflict I was telling you about with Laird earlier,

If I ask myself in the moment,

What's his point,

I then could not,

I don't have to be defensive and take it as a criticism,

But I could try to see what it is,

What's really behind the,

The,

What I'm perceiving as a,

As a criticism.

Yeah.

So you can use what's the point a lot.

Yeah.

Which was another thing that you,

I want to highlight from our conversation today,

Which is question your own,

I love Byron Katie,

Question your own mind,

Question your own thoughts.

And then another piece that,

Um,

I'm taking away from you today is the pursuit of excellence and what is excellence really mean to you to pursue that.

And then it can be in very small things,

Pursuit of excellence of just asking your partner,

How was the surf?

Like that's an excellent move or of dropping something that is worth dropping.

Yeah.

Um,

And then finally,

I think the last thing is this balance between selfishness and service that you can hold those two opposites at the same time.

That's a good place to be in relentlessly selfish and of service.

Thank you,

Gabby.

If people want to,

Uh,

I mean,

You have a podcast,

You have so many different places to find everything,

Gabby Reese,

Everything,

Gabby Reese.

Yeah.

Good.

Everything.

Gabby Reese,

Go find her.

I will say your pockets.

I didn't really start listening to it religiously until Katie and I came on and now everyone in my,

Yes,

You do.

I adore it.

Oh,

You're like my favorite.

Yes.

And my,

You know who loves you?

My mom,

My mom.

Yes.

When she heard that I was coming down and she's like,

Oh,

I just,

Cause I turned her on and she's like,

I just love listening to Gabby Reese.

She's like my new favorites.

I'll tell you guys a secret.

When people say that they get something out of the podcast that actually gives me the greatest delight of anything I do in my work.

So I ha you know,

I mean,

Listen,

We have whatever food businesses,

Fitness stuff.

I do like a creating group workouts for people that I know that they got sweaty.

They felt good.

And then they left.

That one also makes me feel very good.

Um,

But when people go,

Oh,

I got something on our podcast.

I really that I,

It's weird because I'm not a person who's impacted by that very much,

But I get a delight.

It makes me feel,

I'm glad.

Yeah.

So your podcast is,

Is your,

Is your genius,

Your,

Your integrity manifested in the here and now at this stage of your life,

There is a way in which you communicate with people that is different than anywhere else.

It's both very deep and very dynamic and it's super fun to listen to because of that.

And you bring you to it.

So,

Um,

Thank you.

And I want to let people know that every time before I do the show,

I'm never sure.

So just know that if you have things you're doing in your life,

I think that's part and parcel of the deal.

Yeah.

If your heart's beating a little faster,

It means you're ready.

Yeah.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the wise effort podcast.

Wise effort is about you taking your energy and putting it in the places that matter most to you.

And when you do so you'll get to savor the good of your life along the way.

I would like to thank my team,

My partner in all things,

Including the producer of this podcast,

Craig,

Ashley Hyatt,

The podcast manager,

And thank you to Bangold for our music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only,

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatments.